Rethinking Protein: Simple Changes To Help You Burn Fat, Increase Energy, Get Stronger & Live Longer with Dr Rupy Aujla #534

Summary

Podcast Summary: Rethinking Protein with Dr. Rupy Aujla

Episode: Rethinking Protein: Simple Changes To Help You Burn Fat, Increase Energy, Get Stronger & Live Longer with Dr. Rupy Aujla #534
Release Date: March 12, 2025
Host: Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Guest: Dr. Rupy Aujla, London-based Doctor, Nutritionist, and Founder of Doctor's Kitchen

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of "Feel Better, Live More," Dr. Rangan Chatterjee welcomes returning guest Dr. Rupy Aujla to delve deep into the pivotal role of protein in our diets. Dr. Aujla, an esteemed nutritionist and author of the best-selling book Healthy High Protein Supercharge All Energy, Feel Stronger and Live Longer, challenges conventional protein recommendations and provides actionable insights to optimize protein intake for better health and longevity.

The Essential Role of Protein

Dr. Aujla opens the discussion by emphasizing the multifaceted roles of proteins in our bodies:

Dr. Aujla [00:01]: "Proteins are the macro and microstructures of life. They are the most incredible biomolecules that are responsible for so many parts of our physiology."

He elaborates that proteins are not solely about muscle health but are integral to DNA, collagen, skin, hair, enzymes, and transport molecules.

Protein Intake in Modern Diets

The conversation shifts to the common issue of underconsumption of protein, particularly at breakfast:

Dr. Aujla [03:02]: "When you wake up first thing in the morning, you're in a fasted state. And in that fasted state during sleep, you're breaking down your proteins... Breakfast offers a prime opportunity to replenish those amino acids."

Dr. Chatterjee highlights how typical breakfasts like croissants and cereals are often low in protein, leading to mid-morning hunger and increased cravings.

Impact of Ultra-Processed Foods

Dr. Aujla discusses the detrimental effects of ultra-processed foods, which are typically low in protein and high in easily absorbable carbohydrates and sugars:

Dr. Aujla [06:03]: "The majority of the processed foods that we see on supermarket shelves are not only deficient in protein, but they also have ingredients that are remarkably different from the initial ingredients."

This low protein content contributes to sugar spikes, energy crashes, and overeating, exacerbating issues like obesity and metabolic dysfunction.

The Protein Leverage Hypothesis

Exploring the protein leverage hypothesis, Dr. Aujla explains that our bodies signal hunger until protein requirements are met:

Dr. Aujla [05:21]: "Unless you've hit that personal protein threshold, you will continue to be hungry."

This theory underscores the importance of adequate protein consumption to regulate appetite and prevent overconsumption of other macronutrients.

Evolving Protein Recommendations

Dr. Aujla shares his updated perspective on protein needs:

Dr. Aujla [14:10]: "Our protein recommendations currently in the UK and the US are too low."

He advocates for increased daily protein intake, suggesting:

• 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight for general health
• 1.6 grams per kilogram for those who are active or engage in resistance training

This shift aligns with recent research indicating higher protein needs than previously recommended.

Understanding Sarcopenia

The discussion delves into sarcopenia, the age-related loss of muscle mass and strength:

Dr. Aujla [22:34]: "Over the age of 50 the prevalence of sarcopenia is around 40% in the States."

Dr. Aujla emphasizes that sarcopenia affects not just the elderly but also younger populations, contributing to frailty, reduced metabolism, and increased mortality.

Practical Strategies to Increase Protein Intake

To combat protein deficiency, especially at breakfast, Dr. Aujla offers practical solutions:

• High-Protein Breakfast Recipes: Enhancing overnight oats with flaxseeds, chia seeds, and hemp seeds to boost protein content.

  Dr. Aujla [51:29]: "This breakfast offers around 35 grams of protein compared to the typical sub-10 grams."

• Protein-Rich Bread: Developing homemade high-protein bread using nuts, seeds, and psyllium husk.

• Diversifying Protein Sources: Incorporating leftovers like roast chicken or salmon into breakfast to ensure sufficient protein intake.

Dr. Aujla [54:34]: "If you have protein first in the morning, it will give you power all day."

Plant-Based vs. Animal-Based Proteins

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the differences between plant and animal proteins:

• Bioavailability: Animal proteins are generally more bioavailable, meaning they are easier for the body to absorb and utilize.

  Dr. Aujla [80:15]: "Animal-based proteins are more bioavailable... If you have a piece of chicken, you're getting 30 grams of very good quality amino acids."

• Amino Acid Profiles: Plant proteins often lack certain essential amino acids and require careful combination to meet dietary needs.

  Dr. Aujla [89:15]: "Combination of proteins across your meal covers the basis of the amino acid deficits."

Dr. Aujla advises that while plant-based diets can meet protein needs, they demand meticulous planning and may not be practical for everyone, especially those with time constraints or specific dietary intolerances.

The Role of Supplements

The conversation touches on the necessity and benefits of protein supplements:

Dr. Aujla [104:07]: "Those kind of supplements are a convenient option when having a meal is just not on the card."

While advocating for whole foods first, Dr. Aujla acknowledges supplements as valuable tools for individuals struggling to meet their protein requirements through diet alone, particularly in cases like elderly care or post-injury recovery.

Recipes and Meal Ideas

Dr. Aujla shares specific recipes to help listeners increase their protein intake:

• Salmon Tikka Bowls: Combining marinated salmon with greens and lentils for a balanced, high-protein meal.

• Plant-Based Lasagna: Utilizing tofu and other plant-based ingredients to create a protein-rich vegetarian lasagna alternative.

Dr. Aujla [101:16]: "This lasagna is going to be one of the best plant-based lasagnas you have ever tried."

These recipes exemplify how to integrate high-quality protein into various meals effortlessly.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Dr. Aujla underscores the critical importance of prioritizing protein in daily diets to enhance overall health, manage weight, and prevent muscle loss. He encourages listeners to:

1. Identify Personal Protein Needs: Use tools like protein calculators to determine individual requirements.
2. Prioritize Protein at Breakfast: Start the day with a protein-rich meal to sustain energy and reduce cravings.
3. Adapt Eating Habits: Incorporate both animal and plant-based proteins thoughtfully, considering personal health and lifestyle.

Dr. Aujla [116:44]: "Know your number. Think about breakfast protein... Ensure that your overall dietary pattern is anti-inflammatory."

Dr. Rupan Aujla's insights provide a comprehensive framework for rethinking protein intake, making it accessible and applicable for diverse lifestyles and dietary preferences.

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Key Takeaways:

• Protein is essential for numerous physiological functions beyond muscle health.
• Most people, especially at breakfast, consume insufficient protein, leading to increased hunger and cravings.
• Ultra-processed foods are typically low in protein and contribute to metabolic issues.
• Updated protein recommendations suggest higher daily intake than previously advised.
• Sarcopenia is prevalent across age groups and significantly impacts health and longevity.
• Practical strategies include high-protein breakfast recipes and mindful meal planning.
• Animal proteins offer higher bioavailability, while plant proteins require strategic combinations.
• Supplements can bridge protein gaps for those with demanding lifestyles or specific health needs.
• Emphasizing protein intake can naturally support gut health and lower inflammation.

Implementing these strategies can lead to increased energy, reduced cravings, better weight management, and improved overall well-being.

Transcript

[A]

Proteins are the macro and microstructures of life. They are the most incredible biomolecules that are responsible for so many parts of our physiology. Everything from our DNA, our collagen, our skin, our hair, our enzymes, our transport molecules. This is all protein.

[B]

Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast Feel Better, Live More. Many people are not aware that protein is the fundamental building block of life and not just about the health of our muscles. And today's returning guest believes that many of us are are simply not eating enough. Dr. Rupi Augeler is a London based doctor, nutritionist and founder of the Doctor's Kitchen who's on a mission to make healthy cooking accessible and enjoyable for all. He's authored multiple best selling cookbooks including his very latest Healthy High Protein Supercharge All Energy, Feel Stronger and Live Longer. In our conversation, Rupi challenges the traditional protein recommendations and explains why he believes that many of us should be increasing our intake. He explains how muscle wasting affects around 40% of us as we get older. And he explains that this muscle wastage is not just about losing strength, but also affects our metabolism, energy levels and overall well being. We also delve into the protein content of our breakfasts, the differences between animal and plant proteins, the potential downsides of protein powders, how protein needs change as we get older, and why increasing our protein intake can often reduce our snacking and ultra processed food consumption. Whether you're dealing with mid morning energy crashes, looking to support healthy aging, or simply want to feel a little bit better, Rupee's practical wisdom transforms protein focused eating into something manageable and enjoyable. In your brand new book Rupee Healthy High Protein, which I absolutely love, you make the case that many of us are under eating protein. Protein. I wanted to start today by talking about breakfast because this is a meal where many people are probably massively under eating protein. So first of all, why is it do you think that many of us are under eating protein? What are the consequences of us doing so and how should that play in to our breakfast?

[A]

I think breakfast is a great place to start because like you said, we tend to under consume protein at breakfast and that sets us up for the rest of the day. And if you think about typical breakfast foods and if anyone's listening or watching this, they can probably conjure up croissants, cereals, oats. While some of those are healthy or healthier than other options, they have a common denominator in that they tend to be quite low in protein unless we supplement with certain elements. And what that does is it does not replenish what we've been breaking down overnight. So when you wake up first thing in the morning, you're in a fasted state. And in that fasted state during sleep, you're breaking down your proteins, you're repurposing those, you're rebuilding them up into all these different structures, some of which are muscles, other which are enzymes and hormones. And you need to replenish that store of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins. And so breakfast offers a prime opportunity to replenish those amino acids that your body has been breaking down. The other thing that I think a lot of people fall into the trap of is when you don't have protein at breakfast, you tend to have hunger mid morning. Everyone's had that time where they've had something quick, maybe a cereal or something on the go, and then by mid morning you're hungry again. You're like, I've just eaten. Why is that? Well, protein is incredibly satiating. So it signals to your brain when you've had enough protein, there's a signal to your brain that says, I've had enough food, I don't need to crave any more food. So it curbs your cravings. And there is something called the protein leverage hypothesis that perhaps some of your listeners have heard, which is your body will continue to signal to you to keep eating until you've met your personal protein threshold. And unless you've hit that personal protein threshold, you will continue to be hungry. Hence why you're reaching for the biscuits, you're reaching for something sugary even though you've just eaten a couple of hours before. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, let's just bring in ultra processed foods here. Because that protein leverage hypothesis is really interesting. You talk about it, Ted Naiman's been talking about it for years. This idea that we'll keep consuming food until we get enough protein. Okay. And then we think about the modern food environment and all these ultra processed foods, which usually are very low in protein. So when we think about ultra processed foods and the fact that they drive us to over consume, do you think one of the reasons why that is is because of their low protein requirements?

[A]

Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. I think there are a lot of issues with ultra processed and processed foods in general, one of which is the protein content of them. And people might think to themselves initially, okay, well I'll just go for some of Those protein processed foods that label themselves as high protein having 20 grams or 25 grams of protein. And that's not what I'm suggesting. Whatso, I think the majority of the processed foods that we see on supermarket shelves are not only deficient in protein, but they also have ingredients that are remarkably different from the initial ingredients that they were generated from, whether that's from wheat or grain, et cetera. And that processing makes it super easy to absorb the carbohydrates, the sugars within that food. And that leads to sugar spikes and corresponding crashes. But it's also not satiating. And what happens when you eat protein is that not only does it signal to your brain that you're having enough food and it has the satiating effect, but it also delays something called gastric emptying as well. So when you consume food, if you eat something, you swallow it, it goes into your stomach that is bathed in acids and other enzymes to break down that food. And if you're having protein in that mix, it delays that gastric emptying. So it spreads out the absorption of those ingredients over time so you don't get these big spikes in carbohydrates and sugars. Yeah.

[B]

This has got implications. Doesn't sit beyond just energy because of course, two hours after you've had a sugary bowl of cereal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is, you know, there's many issues potentially with that, one of them being it's low in protein. But you have that mid morning hunger, we think, you know, why am I still hungry? You know, I used to have this many years ago before I fundamentally changed the way that I eat. And I think it's so common. And breakfast cereals are still such a common food. And it's, you know, it's interesting, yes, that mid morning hunger, but also what many people are trying to lose. But if excess fat off their bodies, aren't they? And of course not consuming continually throughout the day is probably going to be a good thing for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if you eat the wrong thing at breakfast, that's going to make it really, really difficult, isn't it?

[A]

Absolutely. And I think we can't disentangle what you're alluding to. Energy balance out of this equation of fat loss. So if you're going to be consuming something that is low in protein and that leads you to crave and over consume food during your day, then that's going to put you in an energy surplus, which means you overeat. We tend to store that excess energy as fat and with protein in the morning, not Only is it going to be satiating, it's going to lead to less hunger, reduce those cravings so you don't overeat. But it's also going to give you the best possible chance to actually consume enough protein for your needs over the course of 24 hours. Because as you said right at the start of this, my belief is that our protein recommendations currently in the UK and the US are too low. And actually if we look at the latest research over the last four or five years from protein researchers that using more sensitive techniques that are true reflections of our protein requirements, we tend to need more per day. And I think that even increases as we go into older age, as we'll get into a little bit later. So if you're not having enough protein at breakfast and you have to compensate at lunch and dinner, you're less likely to hit your overall target. And over time you can see how easy it is to under consume for your requirements.

[B]

Would you say we've got it the wrong way round in modern society? What I mean by that, Rupi, is I think if you were just to go on the street now and talk to Joe Public about protein, I think a few things would come to mind. Like meat and fish probably would come to mind for a lot of people. And I hypothesized that most people when they think about protein would be thinking about their evening meal. So you talk about the amount of protein we need in a 24 hour period, but a hypothetical question for you is, do you think that if we just flipped what we were doing? Right. So let's say we didn't increase the amount of protein we were having in 24 hours, but we just flipped it. So the evening protein that many of us are having, we had in the morning instead. In theory, do you think that would lead to better health outcomes?

[A]

It's a very good question and I'm not too sure if there is any evidence that I can point to that's actually done that experiment. What I do and have come across are studies where they emphasize breakfast protein. And what tends to happen is people consume less and they tend to lose weight. Whether or not that has impacted what they eat in the evenings, I'm not sure. But there are also benefits of having evening protein as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So particularly if you are someone who exercises, goes for walks, resistance strains, etc. You need a collection of amino acids which are the building blocks of proteins to be present for you as you go into that rested state where actually your body is repairing and replenishing a Lot of those protein structures in your body overnight as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, let's take a step back because I think people, like you said, assume when we talk about protein, we're talking about meat and fish. And whilst those are great protein sources, I think people need to really re establish a new understanding about what protein is, because we tend to think about protein and muscle. Right. When you think about meat and fish, you think of bodybuilders, you think of strength training, you think of rippling abs. And whilst that's all true, proteins are the macro and microstructures of life. They are the most incredible biomolecules that are responsible for so many parts of our physiology. Everything from our DNA, our collagen, our skin, our hair, our enzymes, our transport molecules, hemoglobin, that transports oxygen to our cells and nutrients, the receptors of signal molecules, hormones that are on the surface of our cells. This is all protein. And to think that protein just equates to muscles, I think is a naive assumption. And actually, when you think about protein, when you consume protein, only about a quarter of that actually goes to skeletal muscle. The majority of the protein that you consume is actually being broken down and being used for those other structures that I just talked about. Enzymes, signaling molecules, hormones. This is where the majority of your protein is going. And our need for protein every single day is insatiable. We go through around 300 grams of protein every single day. Not necessarily from our diet, but. But from breaking down and repurposing those different amino acids.

[B]

Let me just force you there a minute because that's really interesting. We go through about 300 grams of protein per day. Some people may hear that and go, so what are you saying, Rupi? I have to eat 300 grams of protein a day? Because I don't think you're quite saying that, are you?

[A]

No, no, not at all.

[B]

That's a lot of protein.

[A]

It's a lot of protein.

[B]

Even for a tall guy like me, 100%. That's a lot.

[A]

Yeah. So to put that into context, that is around a kilogram of chicken breast. If we're just looking at proteins. And whilst the need of proteins are around that level, it's between 250 grams to 300 grams. Regardless of your age, regardless of whether you exercise or not, your body is like this intelligent recycling plant. You are constantly breaking down big proteins into their constituent parts and then rebuilding them. And the analogy that gets banded around a lot, which I think is useful, is kind of like Lego blocks. So if you think when you Used to play with Lego. I'm probably going to start playing with LEGO again because I have a son. You could make these incredible structures that are as simple as a little car with 20 Lego blocks. You could also make something as magnificent as a cathedral or a big spaceship with the same 20 Lego blocks as long as you had enough of them. It's the same thing with amino acids. Depending on how we sequence them, depending on how we fold them into these big 3D structures, we can create micro structures like enzymes and we can create big molecules like our collagen, our skin, our muscles. It is phenomenal. So I think that the idea of using simple structures, simple sequences to build something much bigger than, you know, a very simple input is an important realization for people because I think people think protein muscle and that's not how we should be thinking about proteins.

[B]

Yeah, it's a take home then from this LEGO analogy that look, these building blocks are really, really important. Right. And if you're not consuming enough of these building blocks, you're not going to have the capacity for all these incredible benefits of protein.

[A]

Absolutely. So, and this is a realization that I only came to quite recently, I would say I assumed that most people, particularly in the UK and the US were consuming more than enough protein. And if you look at the current recommendations of how much protein we should be consuming every single day and the actual amounts, looking at national dietary statistics and data, we over consume or we have more than enough protein in our diets. But actually if you look at the more recent research studies that determine that we should be consuming more protein, we under consume and there is obviously a big range as well of people. And if you look at the typical diets that are largely ultra processed, that are low in protein and low in nutrients, you can see how this plays out in the long term. And I think protein, whilst it's not the only thing, it plays a really important role because of the magnitude of things that proteins are responsible for. Our satiety levels, our cravings, but also our hormones, our weight maintenance and even our immune cells, these are all built from protein. So we need to give ourselves the best building blocks to ensure that our health thrives.

[B]

Okay, so it's really interesting because you, you write about this, you've just shared it. Now that you have changed your mind about protein, do you remember the exact moment when that happens? Because I think there's a couple of things protein I think has become this quite controversial macronutrients. Okay. As you say, I think many, most of us recognize it's important for muscle. But in the start of your book and I honest think it's the best writing you've done today, honestly, I think it's best beautifully written. The way you write about protein in your new book, you talk about these short term and long term benefits. You talk about the short term, fewer sugar cravings, it can help with weight loss, energy focus, better sleep. You also talk about the long term benefits for your bone and your muscle health. Right. So you really make this compelling case that we need enough protein. But let's say in the longevity space, for example, there's been people saying, no, no, we're eating enough protein. We're over prioritizing this at the expense of other things. So help us understand. When did you change your opinion? Why did you change your opinion? And help us navigate this controversy which many of us are seeing online.

[A]

Yeah, I think this is a really good point and I think this is where it pays dividends to lean into both clinical experience as well as reading the academic literature and looking at the mechanistic evidence. And there's sort of two protein camps, right? So in certain longevity fields that are bullish on low calorie diets, not over consuming energy in total and not over consuming protein, they're focused on this idea that if you reduce protein intake, you reduce the signals that trigger growth and that potentially can have some anti cancer benefits. And it can also train your body to be a lot more efficient with the nutrients it receives.

[B]

So which kind of makes sense.

[A]

Completely makes sense. Because that is also anti inflammatory. Right. Completely understand that perspective. And I think there are specific cases where this kind of thinking could be quite useful in combination with say anti cancer treatments, chemotherapy, for example. There are some human trials going on right now where they're doing what's deemed fasting, mimicking diets in combination with conventional therapies and actually having some quite interesting results, small studies, but interesting nonetheless. And then with my clinical hat on, and I think of this as more of a pragmatist perspective, what is the commonest thing that we tend to see in older age? Frailty. And that's exacerbated when someone has a fall and they're off their legs for a few weeks. And then you see this massive reduction muscle bulk. And then after that there are some stats to suggest that your mortality almost doubles within 18 months. So there is a lot of what I look at in the literature and I appreciate. But then there's also what I see when I'm a, when I'm practicing, when I'm seeing patients and I'm leaning more towards the pragmatic view than actually maintaining muscle bulk as a way of ensuring metabolic health, as a way of ensuring strength, particularly in our older age groups, is something that we should be paying much more attention to. And I also think it's quite easy to be fooled by mechanistic studies and looking at specific pathways or and not really leaning into the major problems that affect people of certain age groups. And this isn't just an old age problem. You know, there are some stats, I couldn't find any for the uk, but the rates of sarcopenia in those over the age of 50 in the States is around 40%. So sarcopenia is essentially where your muscles waste, where you have reduced strength, where you increase frailty. It can put you at further risk of metabolic disease because your muscles are not just there for strength, they're also sinks for your sugar, your glucose.

[B]

When you said it's when your muscles waste, I think that a lot of people will hear that. Okay, that doesn't apply to me. Muscle wasting. Oh yeah, maybe my grandma, maybe elderly people who I see walking around with their stick. Oh, they've got muscle wasting. That doesn't apply to me. But that's not the case, is it?

[A]

No. So over the age of 50 the prevalence of sarcopenia is around 40% in the States and 10% of people in their 20s have sarcopenia.

[B]

Okay, I think we need to pause on these stats, right, Because I think they really hammer home why you've dedicated a new book to this topic. Yeah, right. In America, 40% of the adult population by the age of 50 have sarcopenia. And you're saying 10% of 20 year olds. And you've also said that sarcopenia is muscle wasting. These are quite high numbers. Right. How much of this can we attribute to inadequate protein intake versus inadequate resistance training?

[A]

Exactly. That's a very good question. And it will be very hard for me to ascertain the amount that we of sarcopenia that we can attribute to low protein intake versus sedentary lifestyles. And it's definitely going to be a combination of both. I would say if I was to hazard a guess, the weight and the contribution of sedentary lifestyles is going to be more than simply low protein. And the reason why I can say that with some degree of confidence is because when we look at this process called muscle protein synthesis that I'll define in a second, the stimulus form, muscle protein building tends to come more so from exercise and resistance training. Versus just providing your body with amino acids. Muscle protein synthesis is the biological pathway by which we build muscles and muscle protein breakdown is the counter to that. And ideally what we want to be in is a balance between the two. And what happens in sarcopenia is we have more breakdown versus more synthesis, so we have a net negative in terms of our muscle health.

[B]

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[A]

So really good question. And in terms, if we want to get clinical about it, doing a great history, ensuring that we are asking them questions about how much they can exercise, grip, strength, falls, frailty, how far they.

[B]

Can walk, for example, I mean that's from a clinician's perspective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But for someone listening who is basically heard those stats and have just gone, wait a minute, maybe I'm sarcopenic. Is there anything they can do to ask themselves?

[A]

It's. Yeah, I think, I think it really comes down to a subjective feeling of how strong you are. So how much can you feasibly lift in a gym? How easy is it for you to hold your bags of shopping and take them to the car, put them on the bus? Do you have to make changes to the way you walk around? You know, just to do your activities of daily living, for example. And if you want to get really clinical about it, then there are certain investigations that you can do to actually look at the bulk of your muscle. And this is something that can be hidden with our obesity issues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you can be sarcopenic, you can have quite low muscle bulk, but you can still be overweight. And there's this, this, this big issue and this is why I believe it's understandable when you think about the obesity issues, the obesity crisis, particularly in the states, that there is so much muscle wasting in 20 year olds. This is something that we would have never have seen 40, 50 years ago.

[B]

What about Gabrielle Lyons work? Gabrielle has been very passionate for a number of years about talking about this idea that we're focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to the obesity epidemic instead of focusing on the amount of fat on our body. She's basically saying that we're not over fat, we're under muscled. What's your perspective on that?

[A]

I completely agree. I really think muscle health should be the focus of what public health strategies should be concentrated around if we are to tackle the obesity crisis. I think it's very easy to simply put calorie counts on menus and tell people to eat less without really Thinking about muscle health, because as a side effect of focusing on muscle health, strength, resistance training, exercise, and coupling that with protein, you improve your weight control, you improve things like satiety, which is why we have, you know, studies that look at. We just simply increase protein without even changing the amount of energy some people consume. You naturally see a reduction in weight, and the reason why is because you feel more satiated. There's the thermic effect of protein that we'll get to a little bit later, and we're focusing on the right thing. So I completely agree with the idea that muscle health should be the focus and against the backdrop of medications that are going to revolutionize healthcare. Ozempic, GLP1 Agonists that chemically induce anorexia, which is. I know it sounds extreme, but that's essentially what they're doing. We're going to become, under protein, even more so because we won't be able to have the appetite to tolerate the amount of food that we require for our muscles and for our health.

[B]

Yeah. I think this highlights Rupi, one of the big issues, right. It's quite hard to know if we're sarcopenic, right. So we can see if we're carrying excess weight on our body. Right. If we're concerned about our blood sugar, we can go to the doctor and get a blood sugar test. Right. But actually, we don't have that readily accessible test to tell us if we're sarcopenic. Right. So, first of all, the awareness of. It gets tricky for people. I think, so far, what you're saying, and correct me if I've misunderstood anything you're saying, basically that for muscle protein synthesis, which is very important, there are two things we need to think about. We need to think about the amount of resistance training we're doing and the amount of protein we're consuming. If we go back to breakfast, then, right, and talk about these common foods that people are having, which, as we've already outlined, are gonna be low in protein. Let's go through a few of those, like oatmeal, like croissants, like breakfast cereals. And then perhaps you can suggest how we might change that up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Both for meat eaters and for vegans. And I know your book's got loads of recipes to help people with this, but I think that might be quite a useful way to help people understand what they can start doing immediately.

[A]

Completely. Yeah, I agree. I think just to hammer home that point about trying to determine whether someone is sarcopenic or someone who has less muscle bulk than they should do at this point in time. There are a few questions you can ask yourself. Have you lost confidence in your ability to push heavy weights? Are you feeling that you've lost strength in your upper body or your lower legs? Does it take you a little while to bend down to get something on the floor? For example?

[B]

Compared to what, six months ago?

[A]

Compared to a year ago? A couple of years ago, perhaps you've got grandkids and now you're struggling to get up from the floor.

[B]

Can I just say on that though, Rupi, Some people will go, yeah, but I'm getting older, so that's normal. Because I see all around me as people get older, they get frail. So it becomes tricky. These kind of societal narratives then become self fulfilling. Oh, I can't do it like I could six months ago. It must be because I'm getting older.

[A]

Exactly. And I think this idea that we excuse frailty because we are getting older I think is detrimental if we want to thrive in our later years. And I think now people are coming around to this idea, particularly people who listen to your podcast and mine, that it's not good enough to just expect to naturally decay as we get older. That's going to happen. But we can certainly bend the curve towards our favor. We can be stronger and more energetic in our later years, and we deserve to because we're living in an era where we've never been more, we've never had more access to medicine, we've never had more access to the ability to look after our bodies. We've now had more access to healthy food, healthy lifestyles. We should be really thinking about older years as a time where we can be stronger and, and, and healthier in general. I don't think it's, I think a lot more people come into this idea of actually wanting to thrive in their 60s, 70s and 80s.

[B]

Yeah. And I guess the other way of looking at it is whether you currently have sarcopenia or not. Chances are in this modern world, if you're not actively doing something about it as you get older, you're probably going to get it.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are lots of things that we'll come back to that you can do to improve your muscle health. It doesn't have to be this general decline. And I think, you know, giving people the confidence and the tools, one of which is through diet, one of which is through exercise, and there are a few other things that we can do as well. I think, you know, people can begin to, to aspire to thrive in the, in the late.

[B]

And before we get back to breakfast, like, when we think about weight training, I think I. I said this when I came on your show a few weeks ago. One thing I have done for many years is our local supermarket. The car park is on the second floor. Okay. So, yes, sometimes I'll walk, but often if it's the way back from the kids at school or something, we'll park on the second floor, get the stairs down. I don't think I've taken the lift in the last five years. I mean, I will not take the lift. Even if I've got a ton of bags, I will literally carry them up those two flights of stairs. And it's just an internal decision I've made to go, no, no, no. I am not outsourcing my body's ability to shift weight and move it to the second floor, to this elevator, to this lift. Right. Walking up with three bags in your hand, up two flights of stairs, you know, you're feeling it on the final bit, that strength training without going to the gym, isn't it?

[A]

Completely. Completely. And the way I think about it, and maybe this is sort of like my nerdy analytical mind, is when. When you think about the stimuli for muscle protein synthesis, this process that builds muscle, you have a few key things that accelerate that, one of which is exercise, both resistance and aerobics. So every, every time you have your heavy shopping and you take it up those stairs, what are you doing? You're using and engaging your upper body muscles to stabilize those bags. You're using your large muscles, the bulk of which are in your glutes and your. And your hamstrings and your thighs, and you're going upstairs. So that is resistance training. And you're basically shearing those muscles and giving the signals to your body. These are now broken. It's sort of like, you know, you've got a structure of LEGO bricks and you've smashed it down. I don't know about you, but I always have an impetus to, like, build that straight back up again. That's essentially what your body's doing. And you're going to build it up stronger the second time round. So if anyone comes and tries to knock them down again, they're going to take a lot more effort to do that. This is essentially muscle protein synthesis in action. Every time you do something as simple as that, taking it to the car park. And the other big stimulus is having enough amino acids so you have those building blocks to build up that tower and make it stronger in the first place, otherwise known as hypertrophy, or the bulk of muscle. But this is essentially what we're doing every single time as well. This whole process of me doing the research for the book and thinking about how I was fueling myself over the last couple of years and actually not providing myself with the, the amino acids that I required for exercise and general well being, it actually made me reflect quite a bit on patients that I've seen during my clinical career. You know, when I was working full time as an NHS general practitioner, you know, I'd see a lot of women who come in with fatigue. Right. And you go through all the different things and the differentials in your head, you want to make sure that it's not a menstruation issue, you want to make sure there's no red flags, you know, make sure that you're ensuring that you've ticked off any evidence of cancer, bowel issues. One of the simplest things that I think gets brushed over is actually how they're fueling themselves with enough protein. Because if I think back to a lot of, in particular women, I know it's not just women who tend to not have any animal based products in their diet. And look, it is possible to have enough protein on a vegetarian vegan diet, but it takes a lot of careful planning. I think back to the reasons as to why they might have had fatigue after we've discounted everything else and done all the tests and ensure that, you know, the B vitamins aren't crushingly low and the vitamin D is all fine, all that kind of stuff. If we didn't find one of those reasons, could it have been protein? And obviously there are, you know, things that we should also be addressing, psychological causes, et cetera. But if we're just thinking about the basics, I should have been inquiring about protein at a much earlier stage before getting to the point where we're doing a number of other tests. And I think that that's gonna be informing, hopefully other people's medical practice in the future.

[B]

Yeah, it's really interesting because as you say in your introduction, part of the reason for writing this book is you want to reframe how people think, think about protein. And I guess going alongside that is this idea that I don't know if it's, if it's more in the UK than the us. One thing I noticed when you go into the US that, you know, protein is a term that's used in common parlance. Right. So I was in Boston, in New York recently, and I Went to Sweet Greens in Boston.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. It was near my hotel. And there's a thing on the. You pick your protein. Right. It's a concept in America that I've noticed that we typically haven't had here in the UK as much that you're almost being driven to, oh, first of all, pick your protein source now for me. And we did cover this when you came on the show a few weeks ago, because I'm so tall. Those protein amounts are nowhere near what a 6 foot 7 guy like me needs. So actually, if I was to get my requirements, I'd need to order 2.2 protein sources. But I'm saying in the UK we don't really have that to the same degree where you're choosing a protein. So I find that really interesting. But beyond that, I think. And it goes back to what we said before about Gabrielle Lyon. Right. There's this idea that most people, I think, when they're thinking about food, are thinking about their waistline and they're thinking about, I don't want to put on weight or I want to lose a bit of weight. But you could be losing weight in a variety of different ways and still not eating enough protein. So you could look at yourself in the mirror or on the scales and think that you're actually winning, but it could come at a cost. It's interesting. You, Rupi, to me, you've always struck me as someone who looks after themselves. You work out lots, obviously, you try and eat well as much as you can. But you recognized a few years ago, didn't you, that you weren't eating enough protein.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Which I think will surprise people because they go, oh, Rupert's got it all figured out. And it's like, well, no, hold on. Even with your medical degree, with your nutrition qualifications, you've written a ton of books on this stuff, you still found that you were under eating protein.

[A]

Yes. And I think it's because, particularly in the holistic medicine space, we over index and we have been over indexing on things like gut health, which are super important things like anti inflammatory diets. Again, super important. Having more plants in our diet. Absolutely agree with that. But we've sort of forgot one of the primary things and I think protein is really coming back into fashion because people understand that you can't just have a focus on plants and gut health and not really think about the core foundation of what makes a diet nutritionally balanced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is protein. And unfortunately, you know, it's a zero sum game when you take something away you do, you need to replace it, otherwise you risk deficiency. And if I think about some breakfast that you see on Instagram, they look beautiful and they look colorful and they're easy to make. And oatmeal, for example, is one of those, which we'll talk about in a second if you do the nutritional analysis on them. Whilst they do have better fiber, good carbohydrates, particularly if you're training, you know, if you're doing endurance training, for example, carbs from oats can be a great thing, but they tend to be deficient in protein. And the one thing that I think was a stark realization for me is after doing my nutritional medicine masters and completing that and doing a section on endurance training in sports medicine, sports nutrition. But also part of the building of the Doctor's Kitchen app was actually recreating a nutrition calculator from scratch, because I wasn't satisfied that the nutrition data sets from the us, Europe and the UK were sufficient to cover the basis of all the different ingredients that we were analyzing. And so what we did is we literally, line by line, look through every single ingredient to determine what was the most appropriate nutritional analysis for said ingredient. And then we started compiling them together in recipes. And then I realized some of my recipes are actually quite low in protein. My breakfast is actually quite low in protein. Is this the reason why I feel quite hungry mid morning and I'm a constant snacker. I think that's a part of, like, my nature, you know, being at home and stuff. And I tend to just always look in the cupboards. But also, maybe it's because I'm not having enough protein and I tend to exercise most days and I do resistance training, all the right things. And when I started eating more protein, I kid you not, Ryan, I. My snacking fell off a cliff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it makes complete sense.

[B]

And it goes back to what you said at the start about the protein leverage hypothesis. Maybe our bodies will just keep on eating whatever it needs to until we've met those protein requirements. And look, there's the research to look at and then there's clinical experience. I know there's this number at the moment, about 30 grams of protein at breakfast. Right. I'll definitely get your perspective on that. I've never given that to a patient before, but I've definitely advised patients to increase protein intake, particularly at breakfast. And the truth is, I've never seen any downsides. I would often say to patients, eat your dinner for breakfast. That's a simple way of reframing the way you look at breakfast. Yeah, right, but let's go, let's get back to breakfast, right? Because what's interesting about healthy high protein, your new book is these three pillars you talk about, right? Number one, maintain protein. Number two, support gut health. Number number three, lower inflammation. Right? So you just mentioned that in the health world in which we sit for the last years, there's been a lot of talk about gut health and inflammation. Right? And you're not saying they're not important in your book, you're just saying that we need to bring in protein absolutely into the equation. Right. And there are three questions in the book you want people to ask themselves when they sit down to eat. Is there enough protein on my plate to meet my requirements? Are there ingredients in this meal that are supporting my gut health? And number three, is the overall impact of this meal going to be anti inflammatory? Okay, how about this Drupi? How about we look at breakfast and then try and apply these three questions to certain common breakfast meals? Is that a reasonable way of looking at this?

[A]

That's a great way of looking at it. So let's imagine oatmeal, right? Oatmeal has been touted as super healthy. It's got fibres that lower your cholesterol, it's got fiber that can support your gut health, beta glucans, etc, etc. If we look at it through the lens of those three questions, right, Is there enough protein in plain oatmeal? The answer is no. Because even if you're consuming 300 grams of total product, let's say there's about 3 to 4 grams per 100 grams of protein in oats. So no, it's not going to be enough for folks unless you're super, super small and your protein requirements are very low, which we've established is not the case. Is there, are there products that support gut health? Yeah, probably, yeah. We've got some fibers in there, we've got some beta glucans. That's probably going to be generally quite healthy. Is this going to be anti inflammatory? Potentially. But with the blood glucose spiking potential of oats, if you're not having it with berries or you're having any other anti inflammatory ingredients like cinnamon 2bd, I would say, I wouldn't say it's going to be a home run for inflammation.

[B]

This is really interesting. So my bias, based upon what I've seen throughout my career, is that I, I don't generally recommend oats to people for breakfast. Right. I'm not saying it can't be good for some people. But of course my bias will be based on what I've seen. Right. So usually people are coming in to see the doctor. Not always, but usually they've got some degree of health issue that they want to help with. Right. And if we look at the degree of metabolic dysfunction in society, it is reasonable that a lot of patients who come in to see you or me over the years would have a degree of metabolic dysfunction. So I've often found not for everyone, but I've often found oats tend to cause this big blood sugar high, blood sugar low. Two hours later, people feel hungry again. Now, I know that's not the same for everyone, and I'm sure that will come down to their microbiome and their state of metabolic health. Some people have a big bowl of oatmeal in the morning and they're not hungry again for four hours. So I think metabolically, microbiome wise, there's something different going on.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

I personally don't have oats for breakfast. But you do, don't you?

[A]

Yeah, but I have changed the way I have my oats in the morning and I don't always have oats in the morning. I change it up throughout the week because I think diversity of ingredients is super important as well, the way I have my oats now. And just to riff on your point, you know, there are some endurance runners, for example, people who do triathlons and marathons who love oats because they're using that big store of sugar to efficiently power their muscles. That's not most people. Most people in today's world are going straight from their oatmeal at breakfast, jumping on the train and going to work where they sit down for multiple hours a day. They're not running up hills and doing mountains.

[B]

That's the context and nuance that it's missed so much when we talk about, you know, that diet, that breakfast, in the context of what, as you say, if you're really active and you're a, you're a builder, you're a painter, you're a decorator, okay, Your breakfast need may be completely different than if you're actually sat behind a screen to four hours.

[A]

I'll tell you who loves oatmeal. Kipchoge.

[B]

He does.

[A]

And Kipchoge is one of the world's fastest runners at discount. So, you know, it gives you the content context. You know, just using that very simple example, that's someone who's going to thrive on oats. I'm not saying that you can't thrive on oats unless you're like, you know, an ultra marathon or distance runner. But that. That's sort of the ballpark of where people are going to be thriving.

[B]

So how have you changed the way you do oats to meet these three criteria?

[A]

So, whilst I'm someone who exercises most days, I have a very simple base formula for my oatmeal in the morning. So I do overnight oats in a big tub, which is literally what I had this morning. I'll have two tablespoons of oats, which isn't actually that much. It's around 30 grams of oats. Not 120, 150 grams of oats, but 2 tablespoons of oats, 2 tablespoons of milled flaxseed, a tablespoon of chia seed and a tablespoon of shelled hemp seed. Let's go through the nutritionals. So oats is largely carbohydrates. They're right. Quite low in protein, has some beta glucan. Milled flaxseed is around 20, 25 grams of protein with large amounts of fiber as well. Chia is on the lower side of protein in terms of the different seeds, but it's still quite a rich protein source. Around 8 grams per 100 grams or something like that. Shelled hemp seeds is 30 grams per 100 grams of protein. And it is one of those novel plant proteins that has all nine essential amino acids as well. I have that as my base and then I combine flavors on top of that. So I have raw cacao. Again, another really rich protein source. Sometimes I'll also add a protein powder. I'm sure we're going to get to protein powders a little bit later. The pros and cons of those. And then I'll have either water or a milk of choice. That in my case is either full fat dairy or it's a plant milk that doesn't have any fillers or any extra sugars in that, compared to a typical overnight oats recipe is much higher in protein.

[B]

It's like two different meals, isn't it?

[A]

Completely different when you look at the nutritionals. The one that I've just described to you is around 35 grams of protein. The previous one was sub 10.

[B]

Have you noticed a. I think you've already answered this, but let's just highlight the points. You've had times in your life where you'd have a standard bowl of oatmeal and how did you feel throughout that morning? Energy, focus, hunger. Compared to when you're having your new, you know, improved, supercharged overnight oats, basically, with all these other protein and gut.

[A]

Health sources, it's like night and day. It really is.

[B]

You can feel a difference.

[A]

You can feel the difference. Like, as I'm chatting to you now, I know I've had a couple of cups of coffee, but my focus, my energy is completely steady. I'm not feeling like, gosh, I've got to have another biscuit, or gosh, you know, I wonder if I'm going to have a snack in between lunchtime, which I used to feel, particularly when I was working full time in A and E. I now have this steady energy because I'm powering myself first thing in the morning with protein. And that's a mantra that I'm sort of getting people to think about. It's protein first, power all day. If you have protein first in the morning, it will give you power all day. You will be. You will have better energy, you will have less fatigue and less cravings as well.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to put another thought experiment on you.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Okay. Three pillars of eating that you talk about in this book, right? Number one, maintain protein. Number two, support gut health. Number three, lower inflammation. Out of those three, which one do you think is the most important for people to focus on? Just wanted to take a moment to tell you about my first ever UK theatre tour taking place this March. So I've just finished two days rehearsing for the show with the entire tour team to the director, video tech, sound crew, tour manager, and I'm even more excited for these live shows than I was when I first announced the tour. Now, if you enjoy listening to my podcast, I think you are going to love coming to this tour. Don't think of it like a book tour. Think of it as an immersive, transformative, fun evening where you will walk away with a personalized blueprint of the things you need to work on in your own life. It's not just me on a stage talking to you. There will be lots of interactive moments and a few surprises. Now, I know that many of you listen to this podcast to learn things that will help you thrive, but I also know that at times it can feel hard. On this tour, you are going to be in a room with other people who are interested in the same things as you are, which will feel incredibly special and give you a massive boost. These events are going to be fun, inspirational, educational, and hopefully will be the springboard you need to take action. As we move out of winter and get into spring. There are 14 shows all around the UK. The two warm up dates in Wilmslow and the London Lyceum date has just sold out. So don't delay if you plan on picking up tickets. All details can be [e-mail] events. So get your friends together, make a night of it and I hope to see you in person in just a few weeks.

[A]

Here's a sneaky way of answering that question, right? If you focus your diet around plant based sources of protein, you're getting a twofer. So you're getting not only the protein from the ingredients like tempeh or tofu or hemp seeds, nuts and seeds, that kind of stuff, but you're also getting the fiber combined in that as well. I'm sure we're going to talk about animal versus plant based in a bit, but I've sort of done it in a sneaky way.

[B]

So you first the question.

[A]

Yeah. Because one of the reasons why I still believe, you know, someone who is an advocate for healthy high protein, I still believe in a plant forward diet, plant focused diet, one that incorporates a lot of diversity and gut healthy and high fiber ingredients, that there is a way of marrying the two. And actually for omnivores there is this elegant solution of ensuring that you have enough high protein whilst also looking after your gut as well.

[B]

I love your thought process there. My bias would be, I think maintaining protein is probably the one for people to focus on. I'll tell you why I think that. It's not that I don't agree with supporting gut health or lower inflammation. Of course I do. Like you, I've written about those things on multiple occasions. My thing with patience is always thinking about. Cause you can think about a million things for your health and then it gets confusing. Right. So I'm always trying to think about, well, what's the most important lever to turn that naturally makes the other levers follow suit. Right. And I think given the stats that you've put out there about how many people have got sarcopenia and how many people are not eating enough protein, I kind of feel if you do start prioritizing protein, you're gonna snack less, which is actually gonna end up lowering inflammation. Right. And I think the other thing, which we don't talk about enough about gut health and again, I don't think we've spoken about this before, so I'd welcome your perspective on this. We're always thinking about what we can add in to support our gut health, but it's also A case of like when you came on the show a few weeks ago, one of your principles. One of my principles is to unprocess your diet. If you naturally unprocess your diet and reduce the amount of ultra processed foods, you're actually improving your gut health anyway, even before you start adding in all the fermented foods and those sort of things, right? So again, none of us are right or wrong here. We've just expressing our perspective. I think out of those three, the way I look at things at the moment, I'd probably go for most people, if they really focus on their protein, I think they're probably going to take care of the other two as well.

[A]

That's a really, really good point. Point. Because just to echo what you're saying is if you have enough protein, you're not going to over consume energy in the form of calories that's going to be naturally anti inflammatory. You're going to deprocess your diet because you're not going to be having all those snacks and stuff and sugary drinks and stuff to keep your energy up. And you know, it's in terms of what I've just been talking about in terms of protein as it is arguably the most critical macronutrient because of how the downstream effects of protein affect enzyme health, hormonal health, etc. That is the thing to prioritize. And if you look at like, you know, traditional tribes people, protein is prized in those communities, right? They don't have, you know, a diversity of ingredients. They don't have all the sort of the grains and the selection of ingredients that we have in our supermarket shops. They have a very simple diet but they prioritize proteins. They tend to have meat in the morning, they tend to have meat at the end of the day. They have that in combination with random ingredients where there's berries or tubers or whatever it might be. It's a very, very simple diet, but it works for them.

[B]

And that's one of the things I really like about this approach, is that it does simplify eating for people, right. Even those three questions that you propose, right? Is there enough protein on my plate to meet my requirements? Are there ingredients in this meal that are going to support my gut health? Is the overall impact of this meal going to be anti inflammatory? And you know, there's a lot more education on that in your book for people who are interested. But it's not a bad way for people to assess breakfast, lunch and all their meals, frankly, is it? It's quite A nice elegant framework to think about your food.

[A]

Let's play with that because this is why I thought a lot about the questions that I ask myself whenever I sit down to eat. I ask myself a lot of questions. Let's imagine you're having lunch and you've got a meal deal in front of you, right? You've got a sandwich, some crisps, got a sugar sweetened beverage, coke, whatever it might be. If you ask yourself those three questions, even if you're eating something that is deemed as ultra processed as a meal deal, you can afford to do some tweaks that might help you answer those questions in a positive way. So if you think about protein, okay, what kind of proteins can I add? Can I add maybe some shelled edamame on the side of that, just boost up my protein. That shelled edamame is also going to have a knock on effect on. Are they gut healthy ingredients that I'm adding to this meal? Bit of fiber in there as well. And also from the anti inflammation perspective, whilst the crisps and all that kind of stuff might be inflammation producing, maybe you can swap those. Maybe instead of having the crisp you can have some raw nuts. Maybe instead of the sugar sweetened beverage you can have water. And so you're tipping the balance towards more protein, higher fiber, less inflammation. It's a very simple way of analyzing any time you sit down to eat and what's in front of you and what's on your plate and how you can make some very simple tweaks. And I, I do this in the book quite a bit. You know, can you add just one more more, can you swap this for that? And in terms of proteins, you know, in terms of breakfast, I always think about are there leftovers that I can have for breakfast? Breakfast I think has got this brand of having to be sweet. Whereas actually if you look at traditional diets, they tend to be very savory. Like my traditional diet, Punjabi breakfast is definitely a savory affair. It's whole wheat, it's dal, it's spinach, it's yogurt. These are all high protein ingredients that when combined together will give me enough sustenance for the day. Can you layer different proteins on top of each other? So just like I did with my oatmeal, I'm layering shelled hemp seeds, cacao chia seeds. Can you use toppers? Can you think about your breakfast in a, in a savory manner? What about savory breakfast? They tend to be higher protein by virtue of the Fact that using savory umami ingredients.

[B]

What about someone who's listening rupee. And you know, they're interested in their health, but you know, they're busy, they've got to rush out in the morning, they don't have much time for breakfast. And so I don't know, let's say their current breakfast is two pieces of toast, butter and strawberry jam. Okay. I don't know how many people who listen to this podcast eat a breakfast like that, but I'm sure there are many. Right, so if that person came to you and said rupi, okay, listen, I'm hearing what you're saying here. I think from what you're saying, rupi, that's probably a breakfast low in protein. Make the case to that person why they should think about changing it. And if they are gonna change it, can you recommend something for them?

[A]

Okay, let's play with this. So let's imagine I'm not really asking you to change anything at all. If you fancy bread in the morning toasted with. But fine, sounds delicious. Let's think about the bread first off. Okay, so stage one is can we swap that white bread that is devoid of nutrients and actually they've had them stripped out and then artificially added in in the flour to meet the recommended targets that are set by the government. Can we swap that for a slightly higher protein bread? Now bread doesn't naturally have that much protein in, but if you go for something like a sourdough because of the fermentation process that has been allowed to actually release a lot of those proteins that are naturally in the grain, your protein absorption actually increases and the total amount of protein within that bread actually increases as well by a factor of around 100%. So that's not a bad swap. We just looking for those marginal gains and I'm doing the least amount I can for this individual. That's probably something I would suggest.

[B]

And do you think that if there's someone who is feeling hungry two hours later, right, they're in a rush, they're having it, but two hours later they are hungry, they need a little snack at work. Do you think and of course it's hardy individual that even that change alone might perhaps result in them being a bit less hungry? Mid morning potentially.

[A]

Absolutely. Potentially. So let's imagine that you're going one step further. I've actually got a recipe in the.

[B]

Book for my own bread, right.

[A]

And that one slice of bread offers around 8 grams of protein. And the reason why is because we're using nuts and Seeds and psyllium husk, which is naturally high in protein, high in fiber, to deliver what is a really accessible and easy protein rich meal in the morning. So if all you've got time for is popping some bread in the, in the toaster or under the grill, then that offers you a really easy option. And that bread, I'm not a baker. I do not like baking. I don't do cakes. I don't anything. That bread recipe, you put everything into a bowl, add a bit of water and oil, put it into a loaf tin and in the oven for about 60 minutes. I do this once a week with me and my wife. We have it every single week and we absolutely love it. And to go one step further, which is something that I do in the mornings as well, you can use that bread and instead of putting butter on it, maybe try peanut butter. What about tahini? What about some sort of seed butter? Because that again, pushes your protein slightly higher. And then if you've got a little bit more time, exactly seven minutes, pop a couple of eggs into some boiling water and that way you are far surpassing the 25 or 30 grams of protein that you may require in the morning. And I almost guarantee, I know I don't make guarantees, but I'm confident that people who have enough protein in the morning for breakfast will not have those sneaky cravings mid morning anymore.

[B]

We've seen it hundreds of times, right, with patients. If all you take from this entire podcast is to eat more protein at breakfast and then pay attention, just pay attention to what happens in the day, I think people will be quite surprised.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And I think there's this wider point which I think we touched on last time you came on, but you just mentioned your traditional cultural breakfast and what it might be. Breakfast, for some reason has this real PR issue where we think of breakfast, we think of cereal and orange juice and croissants. This is quite a modern thing. It's like breakfast doesn't need to be that. It can be proper foods. You know, I had salmon for breakfast this morning. Brilliant. Did dinner last night, try and cook too much. Whatever's in the fridge, I'll heat it up in the morning. That's how I eat. Because I feel better when I do that 100%. And I think people, they're like, what? For breakfast? Yeah, I can't have that. So you can actually. And I bet you if you try that for a little while, you'll go, oh, yeah, I actually really enjoy this. And I feel much better when I nourish myself properly first thing in the morning.

[A]

It's so funny. My team, whenever I come in in the morning, they, they look at me, they used to look at me quite strange because I would literally pile everything into a little frying pan, put the lid on. And my go to in the mornings is some kale, pumpkin seeds, hot smoked salmon, little bit of olive oil on top of my protein bread. And I literally just put that on the hob, put the lid on and literally, I'm not, I'm not exaggerating. It literally takes me five, six minutes and I eat it straight out of the pan because it's actually quite a small saucepan. And they used to think, oh, isn't that funny? Like Rupee eating out the pan and stuff, like for his breakfast. And. But now they've all started doing it because I espouse these benefits of healthy high protein and they notice the benefits themselves as well because they're more intuitive about how they feel. Midwife morning and they have a lot more energy.

[B]

And that's one thing I love about what you've been doing in public, Rupi, for many years now. You're trying to, well, you're trying to encourage people to cook, you're trying to simplify going home. It's not as guys, it's not as hard as you think. I think you do that really well in all of your books. I think in this one, again, you've done a really great job at helping people. There's quite a few one pan recipes in here. I know you did a whole book on one pan stuff years ago, but it's. I think there's that wider point, isn't there, that we've forgotten how to cook when many people don't know what to do. So cereal and milk is very easy and initially it's tasty and fills you up at least for an hour or so if you don't know how to cook. But as you say, there are ways to do that. What about somebody goes, hey, Rupee, listen, I ain't gonna cook in the morning, right? But I hear what you're saying about protein. Why can't I get a protein powder, put it in my mixer and add in some ingredients like the ones you've already mentioned? Is that okay? So what would you say to that person?

[A]

I say, look, I hear it and I get it. You know, people are time poor and people don't necessarily have the skills. And so I can see what the appeal of a high protein smoothie or high protein shake does for folks I'm sensing a but. There is a but coming. Look, as someone who does have protein shakes themselves, I don't recommend people start their day with a smoothie like that for a number of different reasons. Whilst it might have protein in, I wouldn't say it qualifies for the second question that you are asking yourself in the morning. Is this going to be gut supporting? And the reason why is because when you juice or when you smooth your ingredients, you essentially rapidly and quite destructively changing that 3D complex food matrix. What is the food matrix? Well, it's the, the shape that your berry has when you consume it or the shape that your apple has when you bite into it. And if you imagine using the apple, just riffing on that for a second, when you bite into your apple and you are shearing through the pectin, the different cell walls, you're bathing that and the acid in your mouth and then in your stomach and then your body digests that slowly throughout your intestines. So you absorb the sugar that's naturally found in the apple, the fructose, into your bloodstream and to your liver. You know, that's a very slow process. Whereas if you were to add that to a blender and rapidly change that food matrix, then the amount of work that your body needs to do to break down the apple, whatever you're adding to the smoothie is far less. So you're going to be rapidly absorbing those nutrients into your bloodstream. And because of fruits and all the, the ingredients that have those natural fructose molecules in, I don't think that's a great strategy from a, from a gut health point of view.

[B]

What about someone does it in a smoothie maker, they put in their, you know, their protein powder, their milk, their frozen berries, for example, you know, gut health supporting, you know, although as you say, you are going to crush them right down. Sometimes people can make them in quite a thick way, put them in a bowl and then add seeds and nuts and other gut supporting nutrients in that way. What's your take on that?

[A]

I think that's better. Ideally you want to consume your food in as whole a form as possible, but that's a lovely go between. And look, as someone who enjoys those kind of smoothie bowls and stuff, I get it. It's, it's, it's a nice way to enjoy your food, but as a strategy, something that you want to do every single day, I would say it's probably not optimal, but it is definitely. And what you're describing there, where you're adding the nuts and the seeds and maybe some other ingredients that are in the whole form, like some high fiber ingredients. You're adding complexity to the milieu of what's in that smoothie itself. And so that's going to naturally reduce the speed at which you digest said foods.

[B]

Okay, so there's, there's optimal and there's what's practical. Right. So my understanding from what you're saying is that ideally you would like people to think about their protein intake and make sure for their first meal of the day, this very important meal after your overnight fast, that you are eating real food as much as possible, as close to its natural form as possible, where you are prioritizing protein. Okay. That could be your overnight oats that you have with all those additions. It could be the bread that you recommend with the higher protein bread with some eggs. I guess it could even be fish, meat, roast chicken from the night before heated up. Right, yeah. So that's ideal. You're saying that whilst you understand people buying protein powders and putting them in the smoothie and yes, they still can tick the protein box of your three questions by having that. It's not ideal for those other reasons. But if it was a choice of a breakfast cereal, plain standard breakfast cereal with milk versus a smoothie with protein powder, I'm guessing you'd say that smoothie with protein powder, although not perfect, sure is a better choice.

[A]

I would, I would agree. Yeah. I think these are steps to success. Right. So let's imagine that you have an individual. It might not be someone listening to this. It might be their friend or might be their child that loves their cereal in the morning. And maybe one way in which to just slightly improve that is actually just to add a topper of nuts and seeds or whatever it might be to that cereal in the first instance. Then the next step might be the smoothie that you put in the bowl with again the extra toppers all the way stepping to the success of a high protein breakfast or something that is leftovers. And let's not sleep on on things like meat and fish for breakfast. I know it sounds a bit strange to some people, but leftovers for breakfast for me are one of the easiest things and far easier than the other. And the other thing is like when we think of cereal, whilst we think, yes, it is a time saver when you think about the trade off to your energy and how you feel the rest of the day, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's not an equivalent and I wouldn't Want to put my personal feelings and energy levels on the line for a, a quick decision in the morning. A, a decision that's based on time in the morning.

[B]

And I would say just to highlight something that I think both you and I are passionate about is this idea. Actually, you know what? Don't necessarily believe what Rupi's saying or what I'm saying. Try it, try it for a week and assess for yourself. Do you feel better? Because ultimately that will be. That's where you find the gold. Right? I'm not saying ignore us. I'm just saying look, if you're not sure, why don't you make a commitment to yourself for seven days? I'm going to try a high protein breakfast and pay attention to how you feel. Okay. Animal protein, the plant protein.

[A]

Controversial.

[B]

Gotta cover it, mate. We've got to cover it. Okay. And you've also acknowledged that you are a proponent of plant focused diet.

[A]

Plant focus or plant forward? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay, Right. So one of the things you're drawing attention to in this new book of yours is that this promotion of gut health and plants fiber over the past few years has come at potentially an unappreciated cost. Is that a fair way of saying it?

[A]

That's a really good way of saying.

[B]

It whereby by doing that some people are not eating enough protein. Right. And you tackle that head on. So let's just go through all of that and help people understand the difference between animal protein and plant protein in terms of the amino acids, these Lego building blocks that we need. Because the truth is this, this does become so controversial for people. Right. And I don't think it really needs to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, it really does speak to some of the concepts that you spoke about in your latest book that I really do. Chime with me this idea of minimal reliance science on experts because if we rely completely on, you know, what, what people might listening be listening to me saying or another expert that has a different opinion, a plant based doctor or nutritionist, a carnivore doctor in nutrition, is a keto advocate. You can get really, really confused and stuck in the weeds. And I think riffing on what you said earlier about, you know, try it and see how you feel and become more intuitive about how this way of eating changes your day. How convenient is I think is something that people always need to, to remember. And so with that in mind, let's talk a bit about the difference between animal and plant based proteins. Putting aside the environmental controversies and the moral and ethics of eating animals that I think are valid and true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think we should be able to have a conversation that looks unemotionally at the science. And so with this in mind, animal based proteins are more bioavailable.

[B]

And what does that mean, bioavailable?

[A]

So the accessibility of those building blocks, those amino acids are a lot easier to access from animal based proteins and insufficient quantities. That makes it easier to hit your protein amounts. So putting this into context, if you imagine a bar chart and along the x axis you have all your different amino acids laid up, and on the y axis you have a dotted line going across and that gives you your threshold for all your amino acids. Your animal based proteins are all above that threshold. So if you have a piece of chicken, let's say 100 grams, you're going to be getting 30 grams of very good quality amino acids that will satisfy your body's requirements. If you were to line up the same amount of plant based protein, let's say tempeh, and line up again, the amino acids in terms of the thresholds of amino acids is going to be lower. And that's across the board for all plant based proteins, whether we're talking about beans, corn, grain, other sources of of protein, including nuts and seeds, it's the same story. It's always going to be less in terms of the accessibility and the availability of those amino acids and the amounts of those amino acids as well. That isn't to say that you can't get there, but it requires a lot more careful planning, particularly if you are vegetarian or you're on a vegan diet. And we'll go through some strategies to ensure that you can cover all your bases. But these are the unequivocal facts. In the academic literature, we use some digestibility and bioavailability scores to determine the quality of proteins. We don't need to go into that much detail, but this is what people need to realize about animal versus plant based proteins.

[B]

This is where I think we need to be really careful when we think about theory versus practical application. If we accept what you just said, that animal protein is more bioavailable for the human body than plant protein, as a general rule, then yes, in theory it's possible to meet your requirements by being very methodical and paying attention to what you're doing on a plant based diet, and we can talk about some of your strategies for that and there's plenty of them in the book for people. Right. But also then we have to superimpose that on the fact that what is it? 88% of people in the UK have suffered with burnout in the last couple of years. Right. So people are living in a stressed out world where people are rushing around. So are they. Although it theoretically may be possible, I bet there'll be some people who are listening to this show right now who are massively under consuming protein. And as you say, they may have reasons for choosing the diet that they're doing, which I both of us completely respect. But you may not have the time and energy in your life to pay attention to all the things you need to do with your diet to get that. And now you may also say, actually, for example, if someone's listening and they're eating a vegan diet for compassionate reasons, I totally respect that. I think we're all individuals, we can all make those decisions. But when it comes to purely health, if you're gonna eschew all animal proteins, I think what you're saying, Elise, is you got to be very careful that you're getting enough protein.

[A]

Absolutely. And I say this pretty unequivocally in this chapter within the protein section of the book, that if you have intolerances or allergies or you simply don't like certain high protein plant based ingredients like soy based proteins, tofu, tempeh and nutritional yeast edamame, I don't recommend you go on a purely plant based diet because the amount of planning and forethought it's going to take to get you to your protein requirements is going to be pretty immense. It's not to say that it's impossible, but I feel quite strongly now, just looking at the data, that for most people, just like you were saying, given so many people are time poor, a lot of people are suffering burnout, to get to the point where we're going to be consuming enough quality protein to meet our needs is going to be really, really tough. Now I can hear some people probably saying, well, you know, you just mentioned a few ingredients that aren't indigenous to a number of different cultures, Indian culture, we don't have tempeh and tofu and soy. Like, you know, why, why would you say that if you can't eat those, you can't thrive on a, on a vegan diet. And the reason why is because those traditional diets actually did a lot of work and a lot of processing to the ingredients that they had available to them to make them higher on protein and make the proteins more bioavailable.

[B]

Like what?

[A]

Soaking, germinating, activating fermentation combination. So you Think about lentils and dal. I remember vividly, you know, my mum would first get a big bag from the, the Indian grocers and then she would methodically pick out the stones out of the lentils and then she would throw that into a big pot of water with other lentils as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Soak that overnight, clean that water pressure, cook those lentils and combine it with some again, very high quality rice grains. And that combination, the amount that we would consume, that would give you a decent dose of protein.

[B]

It's a time consuming process. Right. And that's that. Again, speaking about this uncomfortable truth, we're living in this, many of us, at least in this time pressured environment where we're looking at what people used to eat but not looking at how they used to eat it, how they used to prepare it. I mean, this is not to do with protein. But one thing Vid and I have noticed is that. So my background is Bengali, hers is Gujarati. And the way we prepare rice is different from how she saw it being prepared when she grew up. Right. So if I've got white basmati rice, the way my mum taught me how to prepare it is that you put the rice in a pan, you soak it in water and then three times at least, you'll pour the water out. Right? So you pour the water out, then you'll fill it up again, pour the water out and then you'll soak it. Right. And again, I haven't seen a scientific study on this, but mum would always say to me, oh, it just removes the excess starch. Right. People are not doing that at the moment. They're buying the rice, cooking it and keeping all that water in it. And again, I'm not saying good or bad, I'm just saying isn't it interesting how these cultures had ways of, I don't know, ways of doing stuff that some of us don't do anymore. Right.

[A]

You know, there's a bit in the book where I lean into some of these traditional methods and I looked at some of the studies, right, looking at the, the availability of the amino acids as a result of some of these traditional methods. And what happens, and what your mom was teaching you appropriately was when you remove the starches, you're getting rid of anything that could disrupt the availability of those proteins when you cook. And when you, when you soak overnight as well and you replenish that water, you're getting rid of these anti nutrients and these anti nutrients. A bit of a misnomer because anti nutrients are actually quite Healthy for us. But when you reduce them to a point, they no longer disrupt the availability of those amino acids when you cook the rice or cook the lentils, for example. So these traditional methods, whilst they might seem a bit cumbersome and nonsensical, actually they hold a lot of wisdom. There's a reason why we do this and why we've discovered the cooking techniques of our ancestors is because it allowed them to do things like absorb more protein from the limited amount of food that they have.

[B]

I'm glad you said my mum did that correctly. I'm gonna go around afterwards and say you've got Rupi's seal of approval.

[A]

I'll send her the paper.

[B]

Send her the paper. Okay then, Rupi. But for people who are choosing to eat plant based for whatever reason they've chosen that for. Right. Have you got some top tips for them on how they can, you know, these little tweaks that will increase the amount of protein that they're consuming?

[A]

Totally. Yeah. So I would say one of the most important things is combination. So if you imagine going back to that bar chart and you've got all the different amino acids in a chicken breast, you've got all the amino acids that you require in decent doses and decent quantities with rice, let's say you've got some amino acids that are high, it might be methionine, I actually don't know off the top of my head which amino acids that they're rich in, but they're low in others. Lentils. It might be high in some of the amino acids that rice is low in, but low in some of the amino acids that rice is high in. And so what you're doing is by layering proteins and combining them across your meal, you're covering the basis of the amino acid deficits. In combination to that, the quantity of rice and lentils and beans will need to also be upped as well, because the actual dose of those amino acids is going to be a lot lower. So you're beginning to see a bit of a picture and some of the conundrum around vegetarian vegan eating. Not only do you need to be more cognizant about the combination of different proteins, you also need to be consuming a lot more.

[B]

Yeah. So an increased amount of calories potentially to get what you need, protein wise.

[A]

Yes. And I think even more so than calories, because plant based foods tend to be lower in calories anyway compared to animal based foods that increase in fiber, as you've probably discovered during your clinical practice, can be Completely intolerable for certain people who aren't used to consuming fiber in the first place, or may have an intolerance to some of the sugars that you find in carbohydrates. Raffinos, Verbascos, you know, these are all different types of polysaccharides that can be quite troublesome for people. And so you can see why, particularly if you're not preparing these foods in the right way, it can be actually quite detrimental to your gut.

[B]

And there's a, there's a, there's a wider point here for me. Rupee. Right. So, yes, allergies are on the rise, intolerances are on the rise. Many theories, but of course, one of the big ones is to do with the decimated state of our gut microbiomes compared to what our ancestors would have had. Okay. So you often see this judgmental look at what people are eating online. Okay. Obviously, nutrition has become quite divisive, not for everyone, but for a lot of people whose voices get amplified online. Okay. And I think another thing that people forget is that they're not aware of what that other person might be going through. Right. So if you are someone who has had a ton of antibiotics, Right. And a ton of stress and childhood trauma, and your gut microbiome is, you know, has been impacted quite significantly, actually, if that's you, you may struggle to absorb or tolerate large volumes of plant food. I've seen that time and time again. So these are often the people who prefer eating animal based diets because they feel better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But then often someone who's chosen a plant based diet for, let's say, compassionate reasons can be quite judgmental without realizing, hey, wait a minute, maybe that's the only diet that and can tolerate. And I don't think, I don't think I've actually said that on the podcast this way before, but I kind of both me and you are quite interested in compassion and trying to bridge the gap of all these controversies and go, actually, some people find that that's the best way of eating for them.

[A]

You know what, I completely agree and I'm glad you've said that, because I used to be of the opinion that this sort of hype around bone broths and drinking and using an animal based diet is not ro in science. Right. Maybe five, six years ago, it was sort of fashionable. It wasn't really something that could be explained mechanistically. And when you think about it from the lens of someone who is intolerant to certain fibers and, you know, they might have tried a high fiber diet or they might have tried, you know, maybe let's say they're tolerant of certain fibers, but they just haven't figured that out. And then they start doing things like drinking bone broth that are actually very nutrient dense. They might not be that high in protein, but whatever is in the broth is actually a lot more accessible because it's just broken down, it's very simple. And you can buy that with some of those calming anti inflammatory herbs, for example. You can understand why people become such advocates for broths and based diets. Absolutely. I can totally see that. And I think to your point, we definitely need to be respectful of people's individual circumstances whereby it would be completely unadvisable from a medical or nutritional point of view to recommend that someone go on a plant based diet because their guts would not be able to tolerate the foods that are being restricted and thus available to them.

[B]

Yeah. Which goes back to the point that you talk about, that I often talk about, about trusting yourself, about paying attention and going, actually not every adv, every bit of expert is relevant for me at this point in my life. And I think we become overly seduced by what the latest science says. It's important, but you don't know for sure that that scientific study is relevant for you as an individual. And I think that's where our many years of clinical practice play in, where we're like, yeah, okay, we love reading research, but we also like what works for people when they're struggling. Now I eat a lot of plants in my diets. Okay, I'd love your take on this. One thing I really dislike doing is going now to a lot of these new plant based vegan restaurants. Right. I did this. I was in LA in November doing interviews for my new book, okay. And we went to supposedly one of the best vegan restaurants. Cause I was out with some friends who are vegan. And it was great nights, except I hardly slept the night after. I'll tell you why. I didn't know what I was eating, right? Everything was like a substitute. It was like a pepperoni pizza plant based version. Like all of them. I couldn't see a vegetable, right? And I had a headache all night. And I thought, you know what? I would have much rather had a plate of broccoli, a pair of green beans and like real vegetables. Right? So I'm just thinking that some of these places are full of plant substitutes. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, one of the things I Talk about in the book is this rise of plant faux meats. And a lot of these ingredients are actually quite processed. And to be honest, like you look at, there was an interesting article, I can't remember where it was now, but about whether mission style restaurants are actually serving ultra processed food that's jazzed up on fancy plates. And, and if you think about it, they use a lot of agar, they use a lot of jellies, they use a lot of emulsifiers, they use a lot of additives. It's probably meeting the criteria of Nova 4 ultra processed foods, but you're paying like, you know, 10 times the price for it or something. So the same thing is they can.

[B]

Just buy your cookbook.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know what I mean? Let's save them money.

[A]

And so the same thing is probably happening in some of these plant based restaurants. But the other thing, and the other trend I think you're alluding to is the rise of cauliflower steak or mushroom being seared and being put into a kebab.

[B]

What's wrong with that?

[A]

So there is nothing wrong with trying to mimic the, the flavor and the texture of meat, particularly if you crave that as we generally all do and you are plant based for whatever reason, whether it's ethical, environmental, etc. But to equate the protein in that product to a steak or to shredded meat or whatever, I think really does put people at risk of under consuming protein. Unless they are supplementing that charred mushroom or the cauliflower steak with something that is actually of sustenance that satisfies their protein needs.

[B]

Yeah, I honestly think that night I just had an explosion of UPFs. Ultra processed foods.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And again, I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to be critical of those type of restaurants. I'm sure they're trying to meet a need.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I have no issue with having vegan meals, but I'd like it to be a real food vegan meal. Like you know, beans that I can see that look like beans, Broccoli that looks like broccoli. I kid you not. Rupi. I actually don't know what I ate that night. It was just this mishmash of stuff, but I just felt horrible afterwards.

[A]

Yeah. And this is the thing. I think a lot of people who unfortunately go vegan fall into this trap of actually relying on ultra processed faux meats to meet some of those desires for me or because that's the most convenient option for them to, to actually consume food when they don't have time in the mornings and they want that bacon sarni or they want something that gives them the sort of like nostalgia of the meat that they're trying to mimic. And so, and there is a, certainly a rise in the labels that you see in supermarkets with the terms plant based, branded all over it. And look, I, I think we need these products but I don't think we can shy away from the fact that these are ultra processed products that are being snuck into a vegan's diet under the health guise of it being good for you because it's plant based. And I think we need to get away from that equivalency because that's just not true. And look, I'm, I'm a fan of plant focused eating. As you know, a bunch of the recipes are actually plant based to meet to help people who are vegan and vegetarian meet their protein requirements because I think they need the most help as well as a whole bunch of recipes that have got meat and fish and all the rest of the animal based products that people love and, and you know, should eat without fear of judgment.

[B]

Right. Another tricky question for you. Okay. Right.

[A]

I love these.

[B]

For someone who likes to eat meat and, or fish. Right. Which is the recipe in your new book you'd point them to.

[A]

Oh, that's a really hard question, Rongen.

[B]

That's why I asked it, mate.

[A]

So I'm a big fan of diversity bowls. Right. So it's a really simple, easy way of consuming foods with those three things in mind. Is this going to meet my protein requirements? Requirements? Is this going to be gut healthy? Is this going to be anti inflammatory? So honestly, the salmon tikka bowls, which is salmon, that's marinated in a very simple tikka sauce combined with a few greens, a little bit of pickles, some, some lentils, it's just so easy. It's just a bowl. Absolute goodness. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And if you're a vegan listening, right, which is the recipe you'd point them to. So there is, you can't have your overnight oats or your breakfast. You've already mentioned them.

[A]

So there is a lasagna recipe in the book. Okay. And I'm calling it Lasagna Tongue in Cheek. And I'm saying this as someone who has an Italian wife with an Italian nonna, an Italian mother in law. And I've given this recipe to them, I've cooked it for them multiple times and they absolutely love it. And it's made with tofu. Okay. It's going to get so many Italians. If you have any Italian listeners, as I'm sure you do, it's going to get their backup completely. But trust me, trust the process, this lasagna is going to be one of the best plant based lasagnas you have ever tried. And I can, I can say that with full confidence because I tried it with loads of Italians, honestly. And it was so funny because my, my wife's nonna who sadly passed away. Now she's, she was 105 when she passed. I, we talked to her on the phone every Sunday and I told her about this topia and she was like, what are you talking? But there was definitely an appreciation in her voice. She never got to try but her daughter tried it, her dad tried it and everyone like sung its praises. So trust me, there is a plant based lasagna and it does work and it's very high in protein.

[B]

Let's finish off talking about supplements. Okay. Obviously your approach is food first. Are protein supplements necessary? Can they play a role for some people and if so, what do you recommend people buy?

[A]

It's a really good question. Again, my opinion on this has slightly changed over the last couple of years. I used to be quite anti protein supplements because of this overarching opinion that because we're meeting the government set requirements of 0.8 grams per kilo of body weight per 24 hours, there really isn't a need for any extra protein, whether that's in the form of bars or powders or shakes, especially not in the ready made bottles that you find in convenience stores. But I've evolved my opinion on this because I feel that those kind of supplements are a convenient option when having a meal is just not on the card. So after going to the gym or a workout or in between meals or simply to satisfy your 24 hour protein requirements when you can't have chicken or tempeh or tofu at every meal of the day. So I think it's a necessary part of some people's strategy, particularly those who exercise regularly.

[B]

You mentioned at no.8 grams there. Okay, we don't go deep into the recommendations because when you came on my show a few weeks ago, we did cover that. You also cover it in your book, but just top line, you're saying that the recommendations used to be, or some of them still are, 0.8 grams of protein per.

[A]

So 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours.

[B]

Okay. Right. And again, for some people that's going to be too technical. They're not going to want to think about their food in that way. And I know in the book there's all kinds of helpful ways that you, you ask people to think about this stuff. Right. Your recommendation now based upon the research is what?

[A]

So it depends. Too technical. But I believe, and I think this is definitely reflected by the protein researchers in the field, that a minimum requirement of 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours is ideal. And if it's one, if you are active, that is, you exercise, you do running, you do resistance training, it should be 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours. And I should say for folks, if this is all sounding quite technical, there is a protein calculator for free that you can use in the book and actually personalizes it to your age, your activity level with your post menopausal, all sorts of personalization there. So you don't need to like try.

[B]

Exactly. But I guess the point I'm getting to again, we did it on the last podcast when you came on and you've, you've got it in a book for people. You're basically saying that if you subscribe to some of the guidance, which you don't, that the requirement is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours. Back then you thought, actually, I don't really think people need to supplement protein. But now that your view on that has changed, where you think it's not 0.8 grams, it's 1.2 or even up to 1.5, 1.6. You're saying now with those new requirements for people, based upon the latest research, you now think for some people, protein supplements and I guess protein powders, which is how most of them come, or a lot of them come.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think they can be a useful option for some people?

[A]

Absolutely. And I'll give you an example. So for yesterday, I went to the gym in the morning and I had a high protein breakfast, a really good high protein lunch because I was working from home and a decent dinner. In that context, I didn't need a protein supplement to get to the level that I require, which is 1.6 on a day where I'm rushing around, or perhaps I don't have a Tupperware with my lunch in it or I had to grab something on the go. There are instances where a protein shake that I make or I take with me might be an appropriate action to ensure that I'm getting protein for my needs. Those are the sort of nuances that we need to remember. I don't think it's something that we should use as a crutch, but it is like a sticking plaster if you find yourself in a pinch.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's how I look at supplements in general. I am a fan of supplements actually, because I think we can think about ideal. My approach is always food and lifestyle first, but understanding that people are struggling. The soil quality isn't what it was 50 years ago. So are we even getting the same level of nutrients from a piece of broccoli that we were 50 years ago? Probably not. If you're chronically stressed, you're going to release less stomach acid, perhaps, and are going to therefore absorb less. So I think all these things are quite useful sometimes for people as a way of navigating this modern world, which frankly is very different from how we've lived for most of our evolution.

[A]

Can we just riff on the. The previous thing you just said there about the absorption of proteins? I think this is very important for your audience, particularly those who are periopost menopausal and particularly those above the age of 50. Because one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about this is because having, you know, worked on geriatric wards and seeing frail people, I always wondered if there was something that we could do better for folks, particularly as their appetite reduces, but also with this new knowledge that our muscles become less responsive to protein as we age.

[B]

Anabolic resistance.

[A]

Anabolic resistance, exactly. So what that means is your muscles become less responsive to the same stimuli of amino acids. If you consume that through food, then when you consume the same meal as a 20 year old, so you had the less of this muscle protein synthesis stimuli from the same input of amino acids. And if you couple that with a reduction in your gastric acid and your digestibility, so the ability of you to break down those proteins, couple that again with a disruption in your gut microbiota that happens as you age again with high rates of inflammation. You can see that it creates this sort of vicious environment where you see sarcopenia accelerating, which is why you see people who are old and frail and then they fall off a cliff later on in age.

[B]

Yeah. And I guess just following up from that, Rupi, if someone's listening and they're concerned about an elderly mother or an elderly parent. Right. And your parent doesn't want to eat more food and you're concerned about their protein intake, I think protein powders can be incredible in those scenarios. It's a simple and maybe an easier to absorb way of getting in the protein for someone who's not getting it in other ways.

[A]

Completely agree. And I think I did that with.

[B]

My mum when she came out of hospital after her 40 years ago, she was getting protein powders every single day because I was like, no, no, I'm getting it into her.

[A]

Absolutely. And that is. I'm so glad you brought up that example because I think that is a scenario where absolutely a protein powder is necessary and useful and should be prescribed. Unfortunately, we have a situation in the NHS where we rely on quite ultra processed high calorie drinks that, you know, I wouldn't give to anyone. And if you have the opportunity to make a protein shake yourself, even in batch and put it in the freezer so you can use it and you know, it's using minimal ingredients, flavors that you've put in sweeteners that you understand and you've added yourself with perhaps a micronutrient tablet that you can add yourself from whatever source you like with some healthy fats, avocado, coconut cream to bolster up their calorie intake because their appetite does go down, unfortunately, as we age. These are all things that I think we should be leaning into. Absolutely.

[B]

What's your take on things like collagen and creatine?

[A]

I think collagen is a really interesting subject. I haven't seen enough evidence in the human literature to suggest that collagen can improve hair, skin and nails. What collagen is, is very high in certain amino acids, proline, glycine, which are useful for those things, skin, hair and nails. But there isn't human evidence to suggest that it's actually having that effect when you consume it. What it is providing is a good milieu of all those different amino acids. So you can imagine why we see the anecdotes of people taking collagen and then having these, you know, improvements in skin and hair quality. Would we see the same effect if they just simply took away or a casein or a plant based protein powder? Maybe. I haven't seen any studies that compare like and like. But I would say I anecdotally, if I had an injury, if I had a sprain or I had. If I had a tendon issue or ligament injury, I'd probably take it. Yeah. Without. Without clear human evidence. But anecdotes are enough to convince me. And the risks of taking collagen are so low, I'd probably take it to.

[B]

Add another layer on there. I don't know if you're familiar with Ellen Langer's work at Harvard or not. I mean, she's brilliant. You know, she's a professor at Harvard and has been studying the power of the mind on our physiology for decades now. And just to go back to what you said about collagen, right? So you're acknowledging that maybe there isn't enough human evidence, but if you've got an injury, you've seen those anecdotes, and you believe that collagen is going to help you, there's a damn good chance that it is.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And she's got really good published research on the power of our mind and our expectation of what we take and its impacts on us. So just, you know, without going down a rabbit hole. I think that's another thing we don't think about enough.

[A]

Rongan, I completely agree with you and I need to explore this a lot more on my podcast because I think the power of belief is something that our current models of doing human trials don't appreciate.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It blows my mind. I can't fathom, like a mechanistic explanation as to how some of these studies are explained. I just.

[B]

Well, it's arguably the big elephant in the room over the way we do medicine, Right? What do we say? Oh, it's just the placebo effect. Hold on a minute. Maybe saying just the placebo effects is half the problem. Maybe we haven't enough harnessed the power of the placebo effects. Okay, so we'll part that there. Creatine is another supplement that's or the rage at the moment. Do you have a perspective on it?

[A]

Yeah. So I've actually recently started taking creatine because I was really convinced by the evidence that it can improve not only strength and power, but potentially it has some brain health benefits and some mood cognitive enhancing benefits as well, and may even reduce the risk of dementia. Creatine, I think, has had, again, a bit of a branding problem over the last few decades as being really in the realm of the bodybuilding community. And so a lot of women have been scared off taking creatine because of this idea that it makes you bulky and it makes you big, and it's all about muscle hypertrophy, where in reality it improves the health and the function of your muscles. That if there's anything that people have learned from today's conversation is something that we want to rigorously preserve as we get older. And actually, I think this is kind of a good metaphor for the entire book. The reason why I wrote Healthy high protein is to bring people who are not naturally aligned or interested in protein because of the bodybuilding fitness community wrapper around it, but would actually benefit from some of the information around improving protein intake in their diets from a holistic point of view, a medicine point of view, an immune function point of view and menopause post menopause point of view. So creatine. Sorry to go back to my point. Creatine, one of the most widely studied supplements. I think it's tolerable for most people and I think you can tolerate 3.5 grams as a minimum. I'm currently taking 10 grams. I don't know if you take crazy or interested or. Yeah, that's my take on creatine.

[B]

Rupee. It's always fun chatting to you. Honestly, I think this has been so insightful. I'm sure there's plenty for people to take. Genuinely, I think your new book is the best one yet. Okay. I think the writing's great, the recipes are great. Healthy, high protein. Supercharge your energy, feel stronger and live longer. Who would wouldn't want that? Okay, to finish off and maybe this will summarize elements that we've already discussed. But for that person who has had a realization today whilst listening that actually I'm not eating enough protein, what would you say to them?

[A]

I would say first thing is try and get an idea of what your number is. I'm not someone who is recommending people fastidiously measure their macronutrients and weigh their food. I think that's a very detrimental and destructive behavior that I can, I can see leading to eating disorders and an unhealthy obsession with healthy eating. But having an idea of what your protein requirements are every single day is something that that many people would benefit from. And being a good guesstimator of what protein is in your food that you're eating is something that you can learn through the book as well. So I'd say number one, know your number. Number two, think about breakfast protein. This is the meal that people tend to under consume protein in and that sets you up for the rest of the day. And I would say if you are omnivore, you're in a great position because you get the opportunity to layer in all the different types of proteins with animal based proteins. So you're going to very easily hit those numbers whilst also answering those three questions positively, getting enough protein, supporting your gut health and making sure that your overall dietary pattern is anti inflammatory.

[B]

Rippy, always fun chatting to you. It's a great book. Thanks for coming back on the show.

[A]

Thank you man. Appreciate you.

[B]

Really Hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting options, articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatterjeet.com Friday 5 if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audiobooks which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app and always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.