A Five-Minute Break Can Change Your Life with Manoush Zomorodi

Summary

Forever35 Podcast

Episode: A Five-Minute Break Can Change Your Life with Manoush Zomorodi

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Manoush Zomorodi
Date: May 18, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Forever35 welcomes journalist, TED Radio Hour host, and author Manoush Zomorodi. The conversation is a deep dive into Manoush’s new book, Body Electric, which unpacks scientific research on the physical and mental benefits of taking short, regular breaks from sitting. The hosts and Manoush also explore broader themes of self-care, technology, how small changes can have large impacts on well-being, the nuance behind “screen time panic,” and the importance of joyful, sustainable movement as we age.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Life Lately & Self-Care Updates

(02:32–09:41)

• Doree and Elise’s Personal Catch-Up: Discuss hectic family schedules, school events, and navigating downtime. Elise shares her love for Korean PDRN beauty products thanks to a friend.
• Doree’s Birthday Plan: Her upcoming party will be a tennis-and-picnic gathering, intended as a low-stress way to get friends together:

  "So, you know, that's like, that's just. That's all I want." (Doree, 10:32)

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2. Depop Segment: Sustainable Shopping & Closet Clean-Out

(10:54–16:23)

• Depop as Self-Care: Both hosts share their experience buying and selling on Depop, finding staple wardrobe pieces with joy, and practicing a more intentional relationship to clothing.
• Letting Go of Clothes: Doree discusses being "ruthless" about selling clothes that no longer fit her life and highlights the satisfaction of more mindful consumption.

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3. Introducing Manoush Zomorodi and Her Work

(18:03–19:10)

• Career Overview: Manoush is a leading journalist and podcaster with a focus on tech, business, and humanity.
• Her Current Book: Body Electric—centered on the intersection of minimal movement, lifestyle changes, and health.

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4. The Five-Minute Break That Can Change Your Life

(22:00–29:33)

• Origin of the Research: Manoush recounts feeling "physically" drained by end-of-day screen fatigue.
• Discovery: Encountered Dr. Keith Diaz's work proving that five minutes of movement every half-hour slashes blood sugar, lowers blood pressure, lifts mood, reduces fatigue, and can mitigate long-term health risks.
• Clinical Study:

  “[T]he people who committed to taking breaks, 82% of them stuck with it. 80%... liked taking breaks. They saw on average a 25% decline in their fatigue levels... productivity actually increased slightly.” (Manoush, 25:44)

• Accessible Physical Movement: The breaks can be anything—walking, the "Zoom and Shuffle" (side-to-side steps at your desk), laundry, dancing, gardening, or cleaning.

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5. Making Breaks Work for You—Not All-or-Nothing

(26:58–31:46)

• Building the Habit: Most people start with manual timers (not intrusive smartwatch reminders), but over time, the body itself prompts movement.
• Interoception: Manoush explains how screens disrupt the body’s internal cues and that movement helps restore sensitivity to these signals.

  “You lose touch with your body... There’s been a study that showed that... people who interrupted that time with movement developed a sense of interoception.” (Manoush, 28:34)

• Flexibility: Even as little as four breaks/day yields meaningful health benefits.

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6. The Psychology of Movement and Data

(31:46–34:43)

• Preventing Obsession: The value lies in the intention behind the action, not perfection, or guilt over missing steps.
• Parallels with Boredom and Technology: Manoush references her prior book (Bored and Brilliant)—cultivating intentionality with tech and not letting metrics dictate well-being.
• On Screen Time:

  "I'm kind of over shaming kids about their screens. ...We screwed it all up for them." (Manoush, 34:43)

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7. Biases in the Kids & Screens Debate

(35:21–38:13)

• Expert Insights: Manoush spotlights researcher Candace Odgers, who argues that the present "anxious generation" narrative oversells social media’s harms. The #1 factor in youth mental health is actually parental wellbeing.

  “The narrative has been social media is rewiring a generation, it is ruining our kids. And she's like, actually... it doesn't even show up when it comes to mental health issues for kids. The number one thing... is how their parents are doing.” (Manoush, 36:30)

• Over-Regulation Dangers: Bans may hurt vulnerable kids, cutting off connection and support.

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8. The Future: Personalized Medicine, Joyful Movement, and Avoiding Diet Culture

(42:07–49:05)

• Wearables & Data: Manoush introduces Stanford’s Michael Snyder—a “wearables guy”—and personalized medicine. She underscores the potential for better health through tracking personal responses, with data privacy cautions.
• Moving Away from Diet Culture:

  “This is, I think, an exercise. Pun intended. In moderation. ...You're just gonna go for a walk and try to feel good inside." (Manoush, 45:33)

• Joy and Sustainability: The ultimate goal: find movement you want to sustain because it brings joy and ease, not guilt. Five minutes at a time, for a longer, happier life.

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9. On Longevity and Health Span

(47:20–51:54)

• Extending Lifespan & Quality of Life: The conversation turns to Kara Swisher’s work on longevity:

  "If we're living past a hundred, what are those years like? ...It's all well and good to say, ‘Oh, I want to live to 100.’ But, like, do I want to be doing that bedridden…?" (Doree, 47:44)

• Shifting from Achievement to Self-Compassion: Manoush describes her shift from boot camp-style exercise to more gentle, consistent movement to support health over time.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the simplicity of the solution:

  “It sounds so stupid in a way when I explain it...when you tackle something big and then you find the answer and you're like, it was there in front of me all along.” —Manoush, 22:31

• On boot camp and aging:

  “As I got into my 40s and my body started to hurt in ways that it hadn't previously, I realized...going to boot camp doesn't make you able to hold your body up better.” —Manoush, 49:24

• On data and not obsessing:

  "I like to see my steps. That works for me." —Manoush, 32:10
  "I won't use screen time on my phone because I don't really want to see how many hours..." —Elise, 32:22

• On personalized medicine:

  “He has shown like, actually, that's not entirely true. It can be partly a combination of your genetic makeup, the way that your body processes and metabolizes food.” —Manoush, 43:01

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:32–09:41: Self-care and birthday party planning
• 10:54–16:23: Depop segment on mindful shopping and closet clean-out
• 22:00–29:33: Manoush on the science and practice of five-minute movement breaks
• 29:33–31:46: Real-life examples of movement and interoception
• 31:46–34:43: Avoiding obsession over metrics with movement and tech
• 35:21–38:13: Screen time, mental health, and kids—expert insights
• 42:07–44:29: The promise and pitfalls of wearables and personalized medicine
• 44:29–47:05: Distinguishing health behaviors from diet culture
• 47:20–51:54: Aging, health span, and sustainable movement habits

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, supportive, and filled with humor and self-awareness. The hosts and Manoush speak from personal experience, blending research with lived reality and encouraging a compassionate, individualized approach to health and technology.

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Conclusion

This episode is a refreshing, research-backed reminder that self-care doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Small, consistent tweaks—like a five-minute walk every half hour—yield measurable health rewards without the shame or rigidity of diet culture. Technology, when approached with self-awareness and intention, can serve us rather than control us. Most importantly, aging well is about finding sustainable routines that enhance quality of life and bring a bit more joy—one tiny break at a time.

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Where to Find Manoush Zomorodi:

• Website: manoushz.com
• Instagram: @manoushz
• Book: Body Electric (available now)

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For more: Visit forever35podcast.com or follow @forever35podcast on Instagram. Send questions and feedback to the hosts via email or text (see website for details).

Transcript

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Today on the show, one of my great friends and colleagues really at ted, because we both host TED podcasts, Minouche Zomorodi is going to be on. She has a new book out called the Body Electric and it's backed by all sorts of fascinating research about the minimal amount of daily exercise that we need in order to keep our bodies healthy and strong. It's good stuff. And plus, Minouche is just like a ball of energy and super charismatic and we have a great conversation with her.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I really love talking to her.

[Elise Hu]

She's a lot of fun.

[Dory Shafrier]

She was great. Elise, what's going on with you?

[Elise Hu]

Well, what is going on? We are in post production on Windswept, so I've been doing a lot of like big editorial meetings with my co director, Rufus and having a lot of fun there. It is like almost the end of the school year, so it's that snowball feeling, like where time moves really quickly. I very stupidly allowed two of my girls to be in different productions of the same school musical. So, like I have one daughter that's in the Matilda Junior class that met on Tuesdays and then the other daughter is in the Matilda Junior class that met on Fridays. And so each cast has two shows, like two evening performances. So in all I had to get tickets for four Matilda Junior performances and attend at least two. The others I have delegated out to Matt, my ex husband, and Lingling, our nanny. Like so many, like so many hours spent watching Matilda Jr over last week and this week. But it is that time of year and then Issa is graduating from elementary school soon, so there's going to be a ton of culmination activities. Very excited for the student versus parent kickball game.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, is that a tradition at your school?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, it is a tradition. So I think Rob is going to show up and play for the parents. One time I was at a birthday party that was like had a bunch of carnival games, you know, where you had to like throw darts into balloons to pop them or go fishing for things. And he's like, he, we went home with all the prizes. He's really good at that stuff. He kills it at any sort of like beer pong or those sorts of. He's just really good at games, funny. Or things that require, like, physical skills, so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So I think he's gonna be a ringer for the. For the fifth grade parent team. Love it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And then, you know, we had. We had Mother's Day over the last weekend. There's just a bunch of sports things. Everything just seems to be moving very quickly. And I'm trying to find time to do the things that I enjoy, which consists of sitting around, talking shit with my friends. I like to sit around, eat food, drink fun drinks, and talk shit with my friends. Like, those are among my favorite activities. And I don't have enough time for that lately, which is sort of annoying. But I did have a friend come back from Korea and bring a major haul of mainly PDRN products because it's still all the rage. So I have a ton of like metaheal, meta cube, rejuron in a bottle, you know, and products that are marketed that way. And. Yeah, I haven't tried that, Tried anything out yet. But my friend. Shout out to my friend Lucy who brings a bunch of stuff. I can, I can bring you some for your birthday. And door. Your birthday's coming up, so, like, we're. How you feeling?

[Dory Shafrier]

That's true. Well, actually, by the time this airs, my birthday will have already happened, so.

[Elise Hu]

Happy birthday to Tori.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm. I'm feeling fine. I'm just, you know, another year on this planet. Grateful to still be here, Happy to still be here and looking forward to my birthday party.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah, Tell everybody about your birthday party idea.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, first Elise texted me and she was like, oh, my God, your birthday is coming up. What are we doing? And I was like, I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

That was your response?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Last year, Elise very kindly threw me a trivia birthday party at her house. And I was like, it was super fun. But I was like, I don't. Also, by this time, it was already like, I don't know, not that long before my birthday. And I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to plan another trivia birthday party. It's like, kind of a lot of work. And it was a lot of work for Elise. I was like, let's. Let's not do that again. And then I was like, oh, maybe karaoke. And then I started, like, actually thinking about the logistics of karaoke and how it, like, you can get a private room, but then if you don't pay for it yourself, which runs into, like, the hundreds of Dollars trying to, like, get people to venmo you, like, 50 bucks. I don't know.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

It just.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was just like, oh, that sounds annoying too. And then Elise is like, well, what about, like, a bar where they do karaok? And for, like, five minutes, I was like, oh, that could be fun. And then I just was like, it's gonna be so loud. And then I was like, oh, what if I just, like, got people together to play tennis and have a picnic?

[Elise Hu]

Which is. Which are things that you enjoy and allow people to hear each other's voices.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, exactly. And, like, if you want to play tennis, you can play, and if you don't want to play, you don't have to, because there will be picnicky things happening. So that's the plan. I have to reserve the courts tomorrow because the. The public courts in LA like, open up for reservations eight days in advance. So gonna do that tomorrow. And, yeah, I'm gonna order a cake. I just got the. The bakery just emailed me their. All their current. Their current menu and prices, so I'm gonna order that. Elise offered to pick it up, which is very nice of her. And, yeah, probably just get some snacks and some drinks and, you know, call it a day.

[Elise Hu]

Awesome. Awesome. Well, if there's anything else that we can cook or bring or whatever, just let me know.

[Dory Shafrier]

Appreciate that. I will definitely do that.

[Elise Hu]

Most of your friends play tennis, is that right? Because so many of your social. So much of your social circle is through tennis.

[Dory Shafrier]

A lot of them do. And then a lot of. Like, there were a few people who are not on any teams of mine who are coming and are planning on playing, so that'll be fun. And then there are a few people who don't play at all, which is also totally.

[Elise Hu]

Does that play? Is he gonna play?

[Dory Shafrier]

Matt does not play. Okay. Henry wants to play.

[Elise Hu]

Great.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yep.

[Elise Hu]

Awesome. Oh, yeah. Are people bringing their kids, too?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. I meant to mention that.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

People are bringing their kids. So if you would like to bring your kids one or all. One, two, three.

[Elise Hu]

Get all three.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. One, two, three. Children.

[Elise Hu]

Part of the reason. Part of the reason we were like, oh, we should take a Mother's Day picture together, is because we are so not to get, like, it is so rare that we are all together in one place.

[Dory Shafrier]

That. That picture was so cute. Also, I cannot believe how tall Ava is. Because you're tall.

[Elise Hu]

She's 5 10, and I'm. I'm 5.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow. Yeah. So I don't know. I'm excited about that. I always try to, like, just have my birthdays be an excuse to get my friends together.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So, you know, that's like, that's just. That's all I want.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Well, I'm really excited to see my trivia teammates from last year.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

We had a good time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right, before we get to our guest, we have another fun little segment from our friends at depop Foreign.

[Elise Hu]

Hey, y', all, it's Elise N Door. And we are hopping into a short branded segment brought to you by our friends at depop, which we have been loving. We have really enjoyed this partnership with depop, haven't we?

[Dory Shafrier]

It's been amazing. It has been great for me, both as a buyer and a seller, I will say. And it's also, like, brought the fun back for me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, it really is. Because you can be so specific in what you're searching for. And I know for you, Dor, there were specific items like that top that you wanted from a photo shoot that we did for our headshots a few years ago now. And you were able to find the specific top?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, I was able to find the specific top. I also, there were several options. Like, I got to choose because there were a few available. There was also that Farm Rio Adidas collab that I had wanted to get something from when it first came out and I just kind of missed it. But I was able to get this sweatshirt that I am totally obsessed with. I wear all the time.

[Elise Hu]

You've been wearing it a lot. Yeah, I've been wearing it a lot. Recording.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm wearing it a lot also. You can't see my pants, but those Nili Lotan pants. Again, something that like, it was. They were just too expensive for me to buy new. And I was like, there's no way these are gonna be on Depop. Like, no one's selling these. Lo and behold, there they were.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's an incredible space. And then working with the potential buyers as a seller from the seller end is really fantastic too. But we are just going to each share a find of the month or something that we're looking for because this is a great opportunity for me to share with you my new suede Coach Clutch. Yes. Okay, Coach, like especially the early aughts and late 90s, coach is really having a moment and you can find so many selections, whether you want like a more briefcase style bag to carry your laptop in or a crossbody or these clutches or wallets. There's so much great Coach stuff on depop right now. So this is my find of the month. It has a little wristlet, too. You just heard the snap. It's in great condition. Excellent condition. We didn't do any sort of offering because the thing on Depop is that if you want to try and get a deal, you can actually make an offer to the seller and say, like, oh, this is priced 100, but I'm going to offer 80 or something, or I'll offer 90. And very often the sellers are like, okay, so totally. It's just a fantastic experience through and through. What about you? What have you found or what are you looking for?

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, this is. This is sort of like a basic. But I, you know, I pretty much only wear long sleeves now for sun protection, and that extends to just, like, casual shirts. So I. You know, right now I'm wearing this striped shirt. I wear. I feel like I wear these striped shirts all the time because they're, like, lightweight and long sleeve. But I was like, I need. I need some more options. I need some more shirts. Yeah. So I just. I found this, like, cute madewell top that is like this pretty blue plaid button up. It's got a little ruffle collar. It really resembles another, more expensive brand that I shall not name. Okay. But I'm like, people are gonna see this and think that it is this other brand. It's 100% cotton. Like, fabric is great.

[Elise Hu]

Quality is awesome.

[Dory Shafrier]

Quality is awesome. It's in good condition. I'm like, I will wear this all the time. So that is my find of the month. And I'm looking for more. Just sort of like, you know, these aren't. These aren't, like, couture pieces, but they're staples for my wardrobe that I'm gonna wear.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

All the time.

[Elise Hu]

And there's so. Something so soothing about finding a seller that you like and then scrolling through that seller's listings.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

You get a feel for their personal style and seeing the world that they've built through the pieces they've created to sell. And then when you become a seller, both of us are sellers on depub also, so there's no seller fees, which means you get more money directly in your pocket, and you can quickly and easily turn the clothes you're no longer wearing into extra cash, as we've. We have both experienced.

[Dory Shafrier]

I just did that, actually, with a skirt. Like, I'm trying to just be really kind of ruthless about the stuff in my closet that I. That I like esthetically, but I just don't wear for whatever reason.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And this skirt, it's just like, Never fit exactly right. It was, it just didn't, it didn't fit right. And so I was like, I'm going to sell this and someone bought it. Actually, I put my shop on vacation because that's something you can do when you leave town. You can put your shop on vacation so that people don't buy stuff and then like, you can't ship it right away.

[Elise Hu]

Right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Right. So someone had messaged me, being like, hey, when can you ship this? And I was like, well, I'm away but I'll be back, you know, on this day. And like the second I was back, she bought the skirt.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Oh, yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, it was really, it was like, oh, okay. That worked out.

[Elise Hu]

You can download the Depop app and list your own items in seconds. It's so easy and a great way to make money easily with no selling fees. And thank you to Depop for making this branded segment possible.

[Dory Shafrier]

We hope you enjoyed that. Just a reminder, if you want to reach us, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 or email us at Forever35podcastmail. We are now doing our rebranded mini episodes. Our Patreon supporters voted and we decided on you ask. We answer as the name for these episodes. So they're sort of like mega mini episodes. They're like the length of a full length episode. But we get to all your questions, so please keep sending those questions in either by email or text or voicemail. Just a reminder, you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Follow us on Instagram reverber35podcast and you can join the aforementioned [e-mail] forever35. At the free level, we have a semi monthly newsletter where we discuss our podcast highlights, product reviews, exclusive discounts, giveaways, additional bonus content. It's a good time over there. And then at $5 a month you have access to our casual chat, which is weekly and now on video, our live casual chats which we're doing once every three months, and access to our community chat on patreon. And at $10 a month you also get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. You also get a little discount if you buy an annual Patreon membership, so you can check that out as well. Our favorite products are at Shopmy US, Forever 35 and Elise. Do you want to introduce Minouche?

[Elise Hu]

I am delighted to introduce Minouche Zoma Rode who is the host of NPR's Ted Radio Hour. She's a journalist, podcaster and media entrepreneur whose work reflects her passion for investigating how technology and business transform humanity. TED Radio Hour has won a bunch of awards, including the 2023Ambi for best knowledge, Science and Tech Podcast. Her previous book is called Bored and How Spacing out can Unlock your most Creative Self, and her accompanying TED Talk is also a guide to surviving information overload in the attention economy. She has a new book out now, it's called Body Electric. We're super excited about that as Minouche is one of Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People and a multiple award winner. She received her bachelor's degree from Georgetown and she's half Persian, half Swiss, born in New York City where she still lives with her family. We cannot wait for you to hear our conversation with Minouche, which is coming up after a break.

[Dory Shafrier]

We'll be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Minouche Zomorodi]

Elise is my honor to be with you. Love you guys. So excited to hang. Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, Minouche, as you no doubt know, we start all of our conversations with our guests by asking them about a self care practice that they have.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Consider your whole book. Yeah, a version of self care definitely.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

For sure.

[Dory Shafrier]

But I'm wondering, I mean, you can talk about that or you could talk about something else.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

No, I'm going to talk about that because it is what I have dedicated the last three, four years of my life. So, yeah, it's been a. It's been a journey. And it sounds so stupid in a way when I explain it, which I think is what happens when you tackle something big and then you find the answer and you're like, it was there in front of me all along. Right. You know that feeling? So, okay, so take us.

[Elise Hu]

The kid ask.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I'll tell you the journey. I felt like crap at the end of the day. It's that simple. Like, I'd close my laptop and I'd be so, so tired that all I wanted to do was like, you know the drill. Go over to the couch to look at my phone to watch Netflix seems right. And I just couldn't understand because, like, we hear so much about the mental health effects of being online too much or being on social media, et cetera. But this felt so physical to me. Like, everything just was drained. And then, of course, you know that other part of it where you get into bed and you're wired and tired, like, sort of like this cracked out feeling that you have? So I just wanted to know. I was like, what is going on biologically in my body that is making me feel so crappy? And where do screens fit into it? So I'm feeling crappy walking the dog. And then I hear about this physiologist at Columbia University Medical Center. His name's Keith Diaz. Keith. Keith's mission is to figure out the minimum amount of movement that the human body needs so it doesn't die an early death. That's coming out part, though, right? Like, Keith's setting the bar so low, and he finds out that moving for five minutes every half hour during long periods of sitting on your butt has these crazy effects. It like, slashes people's blood sugar. It's slashes their blood pressure. Their mood gets better. They're able to focus. And I was like, this guy has found the answer. So I call him up and I'm like, why aren't we all doing this? He's like, are you going to stand up every half hour for five minutes and walk around? I was like, I don't know if I feel that much better. Maybe he's like, come up to the lab. So I go up to the lab and he enrolls me in the study. And so I did two days. One day I sat, like, on my butt the whole day on my laptop, doing my thing. I got a lunch break, and then I got to go to the bathroom a couple times, but it was pretty much a regular day. I felt crappy. Usual. And then the next day, every half hour, one of his assistants would tap me on the shoulder and lead me over to a treadmill, and they would put it on 2 miles per hour, which I don't know if you're a runner if you ever run on a treadmill. Like, that's not that fast, right? What somebody said to me, they're like, that's an annoying. Like, they're New York. They're like, that's an annoying, like, ca. Like, speed. I was like, it's a stroll.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's a stroll.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

And, okay, so then he comes back with the bio data, and my glucose was cut in half. My blood pressure Dropped by five points. My mood throughout the day was like way steadier. Whereas the other day it went like that. My fatigue levels, I like practically skipped back onto the subway at the end of that day. So I was like, dude, I think this is magic. Why don't we ask people to try it? So we partnered up. We got NPR and Columbia University. We partnered up his team there. They turned it into a proper scientific clinical trial and we enrolled over 20,000 people to give it a shot, which was kind of cool and amazing. And so, I mean, long story short, I can dive into it. But at the end of the day, the people who committed to taking breaks, 82% of them stuck with it. 80% of them liked taking breaks. They saw on average a 25% decline in their fatigue levels. They, they, and this is the crazy part, all those interruptions, productivity actually increased slightly. So that seemed kind of amazing to me. People lost a few pounds, their back stopped aching, and, you know, if they stick with it, this could be why they don't end up developing or they can mitigate any pre diabetic situation that they have. It's only about 10% of our health is up to genes. The rest of it is lifestyle. So, yeah, so that's what I'm trying to do. God, that was a long answer. Self care, getting up and moving regularly. It's that simple.

[Elise Hu]

How are you able to sort of interrupt yourself? So when you were in the lab, there was somebody who was coming up to you and going, all right, it's about that time. I don't know, sometimes if I'm like really in the flow of writing or maybe even having a really long podcast interview, I'm not going to know how much time has passed to do my minimally beneficial amount of activity.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Totally. So what we found was that people in the study, they mostly started with timers, which made sense. And they weren't doing like their Apple watch, because we know what that's like. It's like bing, bing, bing, stand up and you're like, f you. I'm not standing up. Right, right. The key thing was that they had to set their timer themselves. There were three groups in our study. One did the moves every half hour. Other people took five minutes every hour. Other people tried it every two hours.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

So like, you know, the bottom line is do what works for you. And so, Elise, if you are in flow, God bless. You know what I mean? Like, go with it.

[Elise Hu]

It happens so rarely, I might as well stay in it.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Exactly, exactly. But that's was the other thing we found that people who were just like, do I want to take a break now? No, I'm actually in the middle of something.

[Dory Shafrier]

It.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

It didn't become this thing, you know, like all or nothing. I gotta go to the boot camp or I don't go and I'm terrible person. No, it's like literally just try to take as many breaks as you can if you, if you, if you have time. And we saw that people who even just took as little as four breaks a day, they saw big benefits as well. Okay, so there's a sense called interoception. This is. Oh, yeah, I wanted to.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

So this is the internal system where your body is telling your brain, like what it needs. Right. And it's like as much as like, I need a snack or like, take off your sweater, it's getting stuffy in here. Or things that we don't even know, like, take another breath. Right. We don't hear our body usually telling us that in what we now see is that screens are messing with our interoception. Right. So like you're, you know the feeling, you think you're in flow, Elise, but it might just be that you're in scroll. I don't know. Right. They feel very similar. And so you lose touch with your body. And. And there's been a study that showed that, like, people who interrupted that time with movement developed a sense of interoception. And what I heard from many participants was they by the end of the two week study, they didn't have to set their timers anymore. Your body starts to crave it. You start to hear the cravings and you want to obey because then you feel better and you do better work and you don't feel like crap.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Does it matter what kinds of exercise you're doing? Like, you're saying walking. Can you get up and just like squat a bunch or.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Or the zoom and shuffle. We could do it now if you want.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes. Why don't you demonstrate the zoom and shuffle?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

So this is what I call the zoom and shuffle.

[Elise Hu]

Literally describe it, Describe it for our listeners.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

We're looking at each other and I'm the annoying person who's standing up and literally going side to side, back and forth, stepping from right to left to right to left. That's one of my faves. Other people, if, like, walking's not an option, then you can use your arms to go like this. That's fine too. You can go clean out the dishwasher. You can walk the dog. You can have a dance party. You can like take a call while you're, you know, walking around your living room. Like, honestly, it doesn't have to be that strenuous. Some people, like, they would take that as a moment to go get all the dirty laundry. Like, people are like, this is great. I'm cleaning my house in five minute increments. Awesome. You know?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, that was something that I thought was real was interesting is you. You kind of listed a bunch of, like, you could garden, you could, you know, totally do all these. It really is about the movement and the not sitting and then not being sedentary and walking. It seemed like walking is just sort of the easiest thing for people to do.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

But you could do a lot of other things. This, this sort of reminds me, this is like a total sidebar, but go there during lockdown. We interviewed the author, Louise Penny, who has this like long running detective series. And she was like, yeah, I run laps in my apartment.

[Elise Hu]

I'm assuming this is not like a huge apartment. No.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, she was like, I don't have a huge apartment, but.

[Elise Hu]

But she's just running during COVID Yeah,

[Dory Shafrier]

she was like, I just. I just run.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

We.

[Dory Shafrier]

That we asked her the self care question and she was like, I run laps in my apartment. So I feel like, you know, if she's. If she's running laps in her apartment, like, we can all figure out something to do.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I mean, I know some people get weird, right? They're like, gotta get my steps walking, walking, walking. So like, you gotta do what works for you, you know? Like Keith, my researcher pal, he will not use a step counter. He's like, I don't want to know. I just move regularly and I know it because I feel better. And that's enough for me. I like to. I like to see my steps. That works for me. I.

[Elise Hu]

This is a perfect segue to your other book because I won't use screen time on my phone because I don't really want to see how many hours I've used my screen.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Not least look at the truth. Come on.

[Elise Hu]

Not because I'm trying to be judgmental about it, but. But actually because, like, I don't think it's a very reliable measure of health or lack of health because of like, how much I use it for Google Maps, for example. So if I'm in LA and I'm driving a lot, then it looks like my screen time's obnoxiously high. But it's just because I'm like having to navigate Right. And so I don't know that the data is important to me, but we are in this time where there's a lot of anxiety about focus and attention and how much time young people are spending on phones or in my. My soapboxes, how much time our parents are spending on phones. And so since in the last, like 10, 15 years, since you did the work for your previous book Bored but Brilliant, where have you landed? What's your general philosophy on.

[Dory Shafrier]

So I.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

That's really interesting that you asked that question. Okay, so what you're referring to is 10 years ago, I did a similar sort of experiment where we asked people to see if they could lower the minutes that they spent on their phones and get more boredom into their life for a week. We also had 20,000 people sign up for that, which I don't know. 20,000 seems to be like the key number that. I think it's the tech, actually, that is the maximum the tech can sort of handle crunching the data. Anyway, so at the time after that week we saw incredible. People were like, I finished my thesis for my senior year. I reached out to my dad, who I haven't talked to in years. I found out a new business for, you know, a new business idea. Like, people had, like, they slept better, they were playing the guitar again, right? Like all these beautiful things. But the data said that on average, people Only cut down 6 minutes of screen time. And at the time I was like, what the heck? Why? What happened? So now I'm. Right now I'm starting to think, think like, it's not about the time, it's about the intention, right? Like, it's about. Maybe they started listening to more Spotify, I don't know, and walking and listening. Or maybe they. They took the time when they weren't on their screens to just be thinking more. And so it wasn't really related. So honestly, I'm just sort of.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I would love to know how what you guys think. I'm kind of over shaming kids about their screens. I kind of am. Like, you know what? They don't know anything else. We screwed it all up for them. Can we not, like, be like, oh, my God, you're on your phone all the time? Because I am on my phone all the time. And also, like, you know, a lot of experts say if your kid is sleeping okay, and they have friends and things are going fine at school, it's not worth the battle. And it's. The data doesn't support that. Being on social media is horrendous. For their mental health. Necessarily. So I know that's controversial.

[Elise Hu]

No, I'm. Well, I'm glad that you brought this up because the two of us, Minouche and I were just at TED in Vancouver a couple weeks ago and Minouche, you curated a session which is to say you helped find and book the speakers, vet them, and then help coach them. And one of your speakers has, is. Is research backed, of course, is a researcher on kids and screens. And she sort of disrupted the common narrative that this is the anxious generation. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that and why you wanted to have her on the team?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Okay. So John Haidt is the social scientist from NYU whose book the Anxious Generation has been on the bestseller list for years at this point. And I think a lot of us are very grateful that he has started this conversation about how do we make sure that our kids are not exposed to dangerous material, toxic material online and make the Internet a safer place. However, Candace Odgers, she is a UC Irvine researcher and she specializes in teens and screens. And I, she feels, and I'm inclined to go with this too, is that the narrative has been social media is rewiring a generation, it is ruining our kids. And she's like, actually it doesn't even show up when it comes to mental health issues for kids. The number one thing that really affects kids mental health, how their parents are doing. That's the most important thing. And so I just worry that when we talk about like, get the screens out of there, we're missing like, how about the fact that there's only one mental health counselor for every five kids or 500 kids in the United States? What about the fact that like a lot of people don't have health insurance.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Their parents are freaking out about their jobs. Like the. We're at war. Oh yeah, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot going on in kids lives. It's not just because they're being bullied online or, or even just spending time there. I think for a lot of them, she's like very concerned that these bans are going to push kids into places that are even less regulated and potentially stop kids who are looking for support or connection from getting it at all. So it's a nuanced conversation. And to me it's like the more I think about it, the more like every kid, every person, we are all special snowflakes. We have gen different genetic profiles, we're born into different economic situations, we have different temperaments and we to have these blanket decisions like I think we need basic safety regulation 100%. Yeah. But to say like this is terrible for a generation, it's like I don't know.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Elise, I want you to picture this, okay? It's the middle of the week. You want a home cooked meal but you can't think of anything to cook except the same thing you cook every week.

[Elise Hu]

True story.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

I sure did. I made the HelloFresh classic beef tacos which which everyone loves. It comes with restaurant style salsa and a little chipotle lime crema. So we kind of, yeah, we made it a little more authentic for taco night and it's classic yet sure to satisfy. It was great for the whole family.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

You know I feel like we put so much effort into our skin care with all the serums, the treatments, facials, routines, etc etc, but do we think about the thing touching our skin for eight hours every single night?

[Elise Hu]

Our sheets?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. Let's spend some time considering our bedding.

[Elise Hu]

Good point, good point.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I'm kind of obsessed with them.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, I'm so excited.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, I feel like I've gotten sheets in the past that just feel kind of flimsy, and these feel, like, really nice. Do you know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

They're lux.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

On the flip side, in either your curation work recently or just in the many, many conversations that you have as host of TED Radio Hour, what are you excited about that's coming around the bend when it comes to tech and culture and society?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Well, that. I love that. So one of my other speakers was a guy named Michael Snyder, who is a. He's at Stanford, and he's like, the nerdiest of the nerdiest guys. And if you ask him to put out his hands, he will put it out. And he has, like, four or five different wearable rings. Tracking data. Oh, the wearables guy. Oh, the wearables guy. He has, like, all these wristbands going on his. He wears hearing aids that actually double as sensors for, like, the social interaction that he's getting every day. I mean, the man is, like, quantifying, and he has been for years. And part of me is, like, kind of annoyed. I'm like, oh, my God, too much data, right?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

But he is showing what is possible. And there. He has found that there are not just like. Like, we talk about type 2 diabetes, right? People who develop diabetes that they can't process sugar because of their lifestyle or because they aren't eating properly or maybe they're not moving enough. And he has shown like, actually, that's not entirely true. It can be partly a combination of your genetic makeup, the way that your body processes and metabolizes food. And he thinks there are dozens of type 2 diabetes profiles, which is so interesting. So like, I eat a banana, I'm fine. Somebody else eats a banana, their blood sugar spikes up the wazoo. So glucose monitors are cheap. He is hopeful that eventually we will be able to use the data in a way where people can have personalized medicine. And provided they have access to healthy food. That's a big if, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Then they'd be able to eat to suit their own sort of, of makeup, metabolic makeup.

[Elise Hu]

So medicine getting more personalized based on being able to measure our reactions to it better.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes, in a good way. There's a lot of caveats with that. I do, you know, we gotta be careful. Where does all the data go and who has access? And if, you know, you're supposed to eat healthy food, is it even available? However, in a big, in a broader way, this idea of personalized medicine, I think is really exciting.

[Dory Shafrier]

How do we kind of separate all of this information and acknowledgement that, you know, five minutes every half hour has these great health benefits from, you know, diet culture? Where do we, how do we kind of tease that apart?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

This is the first time being I'm being asked that question and I really, really love it.

[Elise Hu]

Which, which is interesting too.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm surprised, actually.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Well, that's why you guys are so awesome. Thanks. So.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, because like, we also don't want to over monitor ourselves and we don't want to feel like, oh, I'm not enough if I don't do that, you

[Minouche Zomorodi]

know, so totally, totally agree.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like the benefits are we doing it to, you know, is this an ego

[Elise Hu]

driven reason or is this a health driven reason?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, you don't. I, I feel like you were very careful not to talk about like weight per se, in your book. It's all about like blood sugar and metabolism and. But these are very murky lines, right?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

100%. You're absolutely right. So, okay, so here's what I would say with the five minute thing. This is what I love about it is it's not like I'm gonna kill it at the gym, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

And it's not like I'm gonna go to boot camp and check it off my list. And then, you know that there I've. I'M not gonna eat anything all day. This is, I think, an exercise. Pun intended. In moderation. We have so little. We're such an all or nothing, go balls to the wall or forget it kind of society.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

This is like, easy, doable. You're not gonna get a medal. You're just gonna go for a walk and try to feel good inside. And honestly, for me, as a person who's super type A surprise, it's like, I couldn't relate. Yeah. Right now I'm sure neither of you know what that's like. I'm always, I was always, when I was younger, chasing the highs. Like, the highs, highs. Like, let's kill it and see. Like, this is really good for me. I just get up, I walk, I feel calmer, I come back. It's almost like self regulation. It's a reset because I can get like really into something or. And not want to tear myself away. I mean, this is like, if you want to go deep, this is kind of a life lesson for me, which is like, you don't really need to feel something. It can just be a five minute walk. And that's good for you too. Like.

[Elise Hu]

Right, Right.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Maybe that's.

[Elise Hu]

The transformation is happening over time. It's a long game play.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

It is a long game. And as I get older, like, I want that game to be longer. Right.

[Elise Hu]

Increase your lifespan and your health span and all of those things.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, we were just, we just had Kara Swisher on the show and she did. I mean, she's, she's so herself.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Cara Swisher wouldn't want it any other way.

[Elise Hu]

Was so Cara Swisher.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes, yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

But she, you know, she has this new CNN series about, you know, the people who kind of want to live forever. But a big part of it is, well, how do we think about increasing our quality of life?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

If we're living past a hundred, what are those years like? And I feel like what you're talking about is really of a piece with that conversation as well. Like, it's all, it's all well and good to say, oh, I want to live time 100. But, like, do I want to be doing that bedridden, you know, like, and demented potentially.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's. Right. It's like all of these questions that, you know, we who are not elderly. Right, right. Aren't really thinking about, but a lot of us are seeing parents go through it now. And, you know, I think anything that we can sort of start doing in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and stick with It, Right. Stick with it. That, you know, has these sort of long term benefits. And I also think, you know, as we're, as we were sort of trying to like parse out this diet culture connection, it does feel to me that what you're talking about here has a lot to do with like things that will bring you joy. Like the way you say you don't have to just take a walk, like do something that makes you feel good. And that is that I feel like that part of the conversation is something that's often missing when we talk about, you know, working out and health and all of these things.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

You guys, I went through a crazy boot camp phase, like killing it. This was 10 years ago. And I was like.

[Elise Hu]

And Minouche listeners, Minouche lives in New York where there are many options and many people who are interested in boot camp and boot camp style exercises.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I was all freaking in. I had two little kids and I would haul my butt out of bed at 5:30 in the morning and like run around with like a bunch of 25 year old dudes and you know, but then life got in the way. I also was very tired on those days when I would do that. Like, I wonder why. Yeah, right. There was something like super like, I'm not gonna lie, it was very satisfying. I was like strong and like that was cool. Yes, but it wasn't sustainable. And as I got into my 40s and my body started to hurt in ways that it hadn't previously, I realized like, I also had two kids and going to boot camp doesn't like, make you able to hold your body up better. You start to use muscles that are easy to use. So like my traps here by my neck were like rock hard. Like, you know what I'm saying?

[Elise Hu]

I was recruiting them all the time, right?

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Yes, exactly. So I wasn't using the rest of my muscular structure. And your muscles hate to be the like Cassandra out here in the future telling you that your muscles are gonna like start to fade away and you have to start using all of them, not just the big ones to hold you up. So to me, like part of like as you said, dory, like the beautiful. The beauty of finding this is like I can do this for the rest of my life and I like it, you know, Cool. Like that's great. I add in some strength training. I'm working on the strength training. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I was gonna ask you how this interacts with the rest, rest of your exercise routines.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I am all about the strength training now. It is not going crazy Just the ones that like the, you know, the dead butt syndrome. I have dead syndrome.

[Elise Hu]

You're talking.

[Dory Shafrier]

We have talked a lot about dead butt syndrome here.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

I can't feel.

[Elise Hu]

I don't even know if my brain can make my medial glute work.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because

[Minouche Zomorodi]

we've decided, my PT and I to call it zombie butt syndrome, actually, because he's there, he's not dead. Just like in a. Like, right, like. So like, we gotta like bring him back to human humanity and let him. I don't know why my butt is at P.E. in any case, I'm working on that. I'm working on like these rhomboid guys, you know, those guys like right there. So I'm not like this. So I'm like, I have to do

[Elise Hu]

those a lot also.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

And that's like, you know, just little movements. So I'm working on like the musculature to hold my body up so I can. And haul it around for another few decades. That's the plan.

[Elise Hu]

Minouche. Where can folks find you? This has been so much fun.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Minouche Z so M A N O U S H z dot com Please buy the book. Spread the movement for movement. We all just want to feel just a teeny bit better in this crazy world. This is one way to do it. I'm on Instagram, the usual places, et cetera. You guys are so fun.

[Dory Shafrier]

This was so fun.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

Can I come back anytime? Okay.

[Minouche Zomorodi]

Awesome. Them all right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Manouche was so great.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. Thank you, Minouche.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Thank you, Manoush. And now we are in the intention zone. Elise, last week you were going to appreciate time with your kids. How did that go?

[Elise Hu]

It was all right. I. I didn't appreciate them that much on the day I was supposed to be appreciated on Mother's Day.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

But I did really try and carve out some one on one time. I feel like things are pretty good with Ava and me. Like, I have had a rocky year with her because this has been the middle of her middle school year and she's just been like all over the place with the emotions and the like freakouts and her social life being all up and down and I mean standard stuff. But I have found it kind of of annoying, like irritating more than anything else. But we have actually had some good times.

[Dory Shafrier]

Good.

[Elise Hu]

We've had good times and we've just been joking around a lot. And then, you know, the other two are doing great. They're just gone a lot because they're doing the run up to this musical that I have to see four times. Right, of course. So this week, since I am finding some bigger free pockets in my schedule as I'm not shooting the film as much as I have been in the last year, since we're going into post, as I mentioned, I am going to intend to tackle my TBR list. I'm gonna do a lot more leisure readings, so. Or I plan to. So that is my intention. I'm putting out into the world.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

What about you? Because your intention last week was about writing, I think.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I said I was going to make a schedule, which I did, but I have, like, not really been following it as faithfully as I should be. So I think what I need to do this week is make a more realistic schedule.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

And. Yeah, and just sort of like figure that out.

[Elise Hu]

So. Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right, everybody. On that note, Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is a cast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

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[Minouche Zomorodi]

Spectrum.

[Dory Shafrier]

You too.

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