Episode 337: What To Do When Your Mom Gets Dumped with Hallie Bateman

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 337: What To Do When Your Mom Gets Dumped with Hallie Bateman

Release Date: January 27, 2025

In Episode 337 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the intricacies of self-care and creative expression with special guest Hallie Bateman, a renowned writer and illustrator. This episode offers a heartfelt exploration of personal trauma, artistic collaboration, and the healing power of humor and creativity.

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Introduction to Hallie Bateman

At [16:39], Doree introduces Hallie Bateman, highlighting her long-standing admiration for Bateman's work and her excitement about Bateman's new book:

Doree Shafriar: "She was someone that I've followed for like over 10 years. And it was so great to talk to her and remind me just how great she is."

Self-Care Practices

The conversation begins with self-care practices, a staple topic for the Forever35 podcast. Hallie shares her current self-care routines, especially in the context of personal and environmental stressors:

Hallie Bateman ([17:17]): "One of them is reading comics... the last couple nights I've just been picking up like graphic novels. It's gentler and easier to dip into even if you're not able to read anything else."

She also discusses setting boundaries in personal interactions:

Hallie Bateman ([18:22]): "...saying no when they want to weigh you at the doctor's office."

Exploring "What To Do When Your Mom Gets Dumped"

The heart of the episode centers around Hallie's latest project, a graphic novel titled What To Do When Your Mom Gets Dumped, co-authored with her mother. Doree and Elise commend the book's ability to blend humor with deep emotional themes:

Elise Hu ([19:41]): "Even though the topic seems like a downer, the way that you drew it made it actually full of heart, I thought."

Hallie provides insight into the collaborative process between her and her mother, especially given the personal nature of the book:

Hallie Bateman ([21:33]): "It was a funny place to be in... working on this book with my mom was really different because it's so personal."

Creative Process and Emotional Healing

Hallie elaborates on the inspiration and emotional journey behind the book, detailing how her mother's sudden divorce after 30 years of marriage served as the catalyst:

Hallie Bateman ([22:09]): "My dad left my mom very suddenly for an ex-girlfriend after 30 years of marriage... the grief was overnight, your whole world just exploded."

She discusses the unique approach of using graphic storytelling to navigate and heal from such profound personal loss:

Hallie Bateman ([27:03]): "This spread is called 'Blame, If You Must.' It's about who the person is when you're divorcing them and who they started as... it's not always that simple."

Incorporating Humor into Trauma

One of the standout elements of the book is its humor amidst tragedy. Hallie explains how laughter serves as a coping mechanism in the face of dark subject matter:

Hallie Bateman ([30:42]): "Our whole family has kind of a dark sense of humor... being able to laugh about them."

Doree adds her appreciation for this balance, emphasizing the relatability and emotional depth it brings:

Doree Shafrier ([32:46]): "There were so many parts of the book where I was like, oh my God, this is so dark, but it's so funny."

Transformation Through Art and Motherhood

The discussion shifts to how motherhood has influenced Hallie's creative process. She shares how becoming a mother has unlocked new levels of creativity and diminished her self-doubt:

Hallie Bateman ([43:25]): "I feel something has unlocked... I don't think there's some imposter syndrome anymore."

Hallie highlights the symbiotic relationship between parenting and creativity, noting how her experiences with her twins inspire her artwork:

Hallie Bateman ([40:12]): "I've filled eight sketchbooks... it's been magical to have my babies and have my art-making follow me into this."

Final Thoughts and Where to Find Hallie Bateman

As the episode wraps up, Hallie reflects on her growth and the ongoing transformation of her mother through their collaborative work:

Hallie Bateman ([36:31]): "I see her blossom, step into a new... she's really a lot more herself."

The hosts express their gratitude and provide listeners with information on how to connect with Hallie and purchase her book:

Hallie Bateman ([46:06]): "You can find me on Instagram... and find our book anywhere books are sold."

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Notable Quotes

• Hallie Bateman ([17:19]): "Reading comics... it's gentler and easier to dip into even if you're not able to read anything else."
• Elise Hu ([19:41]): "Even though the topic seems like a downer, the way that you drew it made it actually full of heart."
• Hallie Bateman ([27:58]): "Each page is like that... it’s a mother-daughter collaboration coming out of a lot of conversation and squabbling."
• Hallie Bateman ([30:42]): "Our whole family has kind of a dark sense of humor... being able to laugh about them."

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Conclusions and Insights

This episode of Forever35 masterfully intertwines discussions of personal trauma, creative expression, and the therapeutic power of humor. Hallie Bateman's candid conversation about her collaborative work with her mother underscores the profound impact that artistic endeavors can have on healing and personal growth. The episode serves as an inspiring testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the vital role of creativity in navigating life's most challenging moments.

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Connect with Forever35:

• Website: forever35podcast.com
• Instagram: @revver35podcast
• Patreon: patreon.com/Forever35
• Shop: shopmy.us/Forever35
• Newsletter: forever35podcast.com/newsletter
• Contact: Call or text at 781-591-0390 or email at [e-mail]

Follow Hallie Bateman:

• Instagram: @HallieBateman (Note: Replace with actual handle)

Purchase Hallie Bateman's Book:

• Available at major bookstores and online retailers.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

I'm feeling the need to learn something new itch that comes with every new year. And if you're feeling the same itch then I highly recommend you check out Masterclass and the classes really make a difference. 88% of members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. I have recently taken the Shonda Rhimes writing class. I also did one from Aaron Sorkin because I'm trying to learn how to be a screenwriter or be a better one. And it's not just the classes themselves. It's also the materials that really help me out because I can kind of draw on them when I'm thinking about things like structure. But obviously, Masterclass isn't just full of writers, it has experts on every topic imaginable. One of my go tos is the one about negotiation with the FBI negotiator Chris Voss. For just $10 a month. An annual membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. Let's learn by doing this here right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Forever35 that is 15% [e-mail] Forever35 masterclass.com Forever35 Foreign.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

Welcome to the show.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, and I hope you all are taking care of yourselves because it feels like everything's on fire.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, in Los Angeles, literally everything is on fire.

[Elise Hu]

But also, you know, metaphorically and figuratively.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, that too. That too. It's a, it's a, it's. It's a rough time out there.

[Elise Hu]

I should put the question that we always give the guests to you. Dora, what are you doing that you consider self care lately?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, I mean, tennis.

[Elise Hu]

Tennis. Yeah. You have, you have a few trips to the desert coming up. We should report to our listeners. Yeah, Dory's tennis teams are quite successful.

[Dory Shafrier]

I have two trips to the desert. Desert. One this weekend and one next weekend for my two teams. We are going to SoCal sectional, baby.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, girl.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I'm excited and I think I'll just be like a fun experience. Supposedly this sectionals is like a very fun vibe because there's no nationals for this season. So it just sort of ends here. And it's supposed to be more chill. So you have to play, right?

[Elise Hu]

I mean, you have to, you have set up.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, but, but I think it's like when, when there's the possibility of going to nationals, the teams are like much more cutthroat and competitive. Whereas at this people are just kind of there to play some tennis in the desert and like, have a good time.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that sounds great.

[Dory Shafrier]

What about you? What are you doing for self care?

[Elise Hu]

I'm trying to get back into bar trivia. So for the last couple of weeks, for the last couple of weeks, I have gone to bar trivia on Wednesday nights. But I think I'm like too thirsty when I get there. As in thirsty for drinks. And then I get lit. And then, and then by Thursday morning I'm like, wow, my eyes are all swollen.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, no.

[Elise Hu]

And I have a headache. Hmm. What happened? So I need to take it a little. I need a throttle on my bar trivia re entry. I think I'm hitting it a little hard. But it is so fun. Some of the teams are giant. They have like 12 people. And last night it was four of us. And so we were teasing the teams near us that were all because we were so outnumbered. And then they have these fun music Rounds or picture rounds. And yesterday there was a crossword round, and every answer in the crossword had the word tip in it. So it'd be like tiptoe and Centipede and Antipathy were the. The answers. You would have really enjoyed this particular.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was gonna say don't invite me to, like, cocktail parties. Invite me to bar trivia.

[Elise Hu]

There was one round where I felt really helpful in. And it was photos, it was images, and you had to name the decade. So they had, like, an image of Saddam Hussein after he was captured. Remember when they found him in the hole and he was, like, all bearded and somebody. Want. Somebody on my team wanted to say it was the 90s because the Operation Desert Storm was in the 90s. But I was like, no, that was after. This is clear. Look at his beard. He was living in a hole.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

So it was clearly 2004. Yeah. And they had, like, a photo of FDR at Yalta and Nelson Mandela after he was released. And so there's some. Some rounds where I'm totally useless. Like comic books. Don't know.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. No.

[Elise Hu]

And classic rock. Real problem. Real gaps in classic rock.

[Dory Shafrier]

The guy who we have hired many times to do, like, private trivia nights.

[Elise Hu]

Trivia nights.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. He always used to do a TV theme song round, and I was, like, really bad at that.

[Elise Hu]

I watched a lot of, like, USA and TNT and TBS as a kid, so I'm guessing I might.

[Dory Shafrier]

You'd probably be good at it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That might be something. I was really into, like, Matlock as a kid, which they rebooted, by the way. There's a new Matlock on cbs.

[Dory Shafrier]

Of course there is. Of course there is. Because, like, there's no original ideas anymore.

[Elise Hu]

In the category of products and serums. I have been, like, just studying Ava. My tweens stash to see what she has. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's really into lip oils. The twins are using a lot of those Fenty beauty lip oils and then the elf lip oil. I love the elp lip oil. I think it's, like, $9 but lovely. And I like the little applicator. And it's. It's now a go to product for me that I discovered from following Ava. I'm gonna have to get her list. I'm gonna get her shopping.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, get. Get her list.

[Elise Hu]

This was sort of like when we were talking about the Altadena girls who were doing the Wildfire Relief for their friends. They had, like, a list, and that's probably helpful because we can kind of peek in on that. List and be like, oh, these are some things we need to do.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. That's why I was excited to go shopping for them.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And then they were like, we're good. Which is fine, obviously. But, yeah, because I was like, oh, I want to know, like, what's the deal here?

[Elise Hu]

Well, last year, Ava got me that blush from, say, S A I E for my birthday, and I love it. It's that cream blush. You just put a dot on each cheek. And I've been using that for, you know, since last February. So I do. I have learned about some cool stuff. Otherwise, I would be like, some of our millennial callers and texters who are like, I haven't updated my makeup in.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's good times.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you for your contribution. I gotta pay Ava some sort of, like, consulting fee and just put her on my payroll. I think that it's good for tax purposes or something, too. I can make her my, like, Tick Tock consultant. That whole tick tock, that 12 hours or 14 hours without tick Tock really rocked a lot of young people's worlds.

[Dory Shafrier]

Did it really?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And I checked my notes, and it really was like, 14 hours. Though I am seeing a lot of people are saying that now that Tick Tock is so openly playing political games and kind of sucking up and kissing up to the Trump administration, that people are less into it. Like, it's. It's kind of gone the way some users are. Seem to be not engaging in the same way they were before, so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It'll be really interesting to see what happens with our social platforms. It is a time of unknown.

[Dory Shafrier]

What's, like, funny to me is how quickly we forget the social platforms of old. Like, some people. The way people were talking about TikTok was almost like, it's too big to fail. And I'm like, no. Like, the. The world is littered with the corpses of dead social platforms. Like, everyone thought vine was too big to fail, and then Twitter killed it. Like, my space was too big to fail, and then it just sort of, like, went away. Like, there's nothing that says that Tick Tock must stick around.

[Elise Hu]

Like, I think this is already the beginning of the end for it too. Like, this whole pause and getting and becoming a political football. But who knows? There are so many creators that are really reliant on these.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know. That's the only thing.

[Elise Hu]

There's an entire economy. Yeah. What's different about, like, Vine Days versus Tick Tock days is the creator economy and all the people who leverage the attention economy. And the brands that participate in it in order to, you know, launch entire careers. You, you ask teens these days and tweens these days what they want to be when they grow up. And a lot of them say they want to be youtubers, they want to be influencers. Like, that's a legit career path now.

[Dory Shafrier]

Crazy.

[Elise Hu]

What a time to be alive.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a time to be alive.

[Elise Hu]

And because it is a rough time to be alive or a strange one, I feel our guests have been all extra refreshing and extra delightful as counter programming. And then this week we had an awesome conversation with the cartoonist and illustrator Hallie Bateman.

[Dory Shafrier]

She was great. She was. She's someone that I've followed for like over 10 years. And it was so great to get to talk to her and also just to be reminded, like, she was so young when she sort of first came on the scene on like the all in the Hairpin and sort of like late aughts, early aught teens, Internet.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So, yeah, she's super cool and the new book is wonderful and such a delight. And yeah, she's just. She's just so great. Should we introduce her, like officially?

[Elise Hu]

Officially, yes. Yes, I will do the honors. Hallie Bateman is a writer and illustrator whose work has appeared in the New Yorker, the New York Times Magazine, the Owl, and many others. Her books include Directions, what to Do When I'm Gone, and Brave New Work. Other books she has illustrated included she lives in Cincinnati, Ohio, and her latest book is what to do when youn Get Dumped, which was written by her mom. So this project is extra special, it's extra poignant, and the book, despite its title, is often full of levity.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's really charming and funny and. And I think gets at something very real and heartbreaking. I just thought it was so. It was such a great book. Before we get to Hallie, just want to remind everyone everything we mention on the show is on our website, forever35podcast.com. We're also on Instagram Revver35podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35. You can shop our favorite products at Shopmy US Forever35 and our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com/newsletter. Also, please call or text us at 781-591-0390 or you can email us at forever35podcastmail.com we do we like, I would say we love getting all of your communication. I especially love getting voicemails because I love hearing our listeners voices. So if you are. If you are moved to send us a voicemail, please do.

[Elise Hu]

Those voicemails are really great though. Any, any kind, any type of communication is always welcome.

[Dory Shafrier]

Exactly. Exactly. All right. We are going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Hallie Bateman]

I'm so excited to be here. And I'm exactly 35. Oh, yay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Gosh, we so rarely have someone who is right at the 35 age. Like, yeah, that's wonderful. Well, as I think you know, because I. You did say you listen to the show. You know that we start our interviews by asking our guests about A self care practice that they have. So we are wondering if there is something that you do that you would consider self care.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, I was actually, I was thinking about that before the show And I have two things from the last 24 hours that I showed.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, perfect. So they're recent. All right.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah. Okay. So one of them is reading comics, as I'm sure you know, because I think you're both based in la. The fires have been happening. It's horrible. And you know, even just as some, I don't live there anymore. But as someone from afar who has so many loved ones affected and been like really just so kind of grief stricken and out of it and glued to my phone and I try to sit down and read like a novel and my vision just blurs and I can't function. So the last couple nights I've just been picking up like graphic novels. And I can read it because it's gentler and an easier ask you can dip in even if you're not able to read anything else. So that's my one self care tip. And then the other one, which I used today, was just saying no when they want to weigh you at the doctor's office.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Elise Hu]

You don't have to say yes.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, can we skip that? And they're like, oh, yeah. And it's just incredible. So those are my two things.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. I started doing that a couple years ago and I feel like at first they were surprised and now I think enough people are doing it that they're just like, oh yeah, no problem.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, they, they kind of seem like, okay. And then I'm like, why are we even doing this?

[Elise Hu]

Why is anybody doing it at all? Then, yeah, you know.

[Dory Shafrier]

Can I ask what graphic novels you're reading?

[Hallie Bateman]

The one I read was reading last night is from my all time favorite cartoonist, Linda Berry. That's Linda with a Y. And it's one called Come Over, Come Over. That's. I think it was from like a syndicated comic that she did in the 80s that's like about these two sisters, Linda Berry. I don't know if you guys are familiar, but she's like kind of a legend. Like she won a MacArthur Grant a few years ago and I think she used to be like on David Letterman a lot or something. Like, she's just like a total character. But her comics are like what got me into comics. Like, she's my cool, she's my icon who I just kind of worship from afar.

[Elise Hu]

Well, both of us have gotten to practice your self Care tip by reading comics because you have what to do when you get dumped, which is a graphic novel out now. And even though the topic seems like a downer, the way that you drew it made it actually full of heart, I thought. And pathos and whimsy in places too. And so thank you for that because we have been here in LA in the midst of the fires, and it was really nice just to be able to get through an entire book, you know, and have it capture our attention, you know, for a concentrated period of time.

[Hallie Bateman]

I think that one reason why you know, a book, you know, this. This book is for, you know, someone who's going through heartbreak. And I think that asking someone in a state like that to. To pick up and read a book like that, it might be nice to have the. The imagery. And my mom and I thought about that a lot when. When making it of, like. Yeah, like the. The gentleness and the invitingness of the images, even though parts of it are hard, but it's also a funny book and that there's a lot of warmth in the art. And so. Yeah, I'm glad it landed that way.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So this book is about getting dumped, but it's very personal. I mean, the author is your mother and it's about your father.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I know you've collaborated with your mom before on a. On a previous book, but what was it like collaborating with her on this particular project that, you know, brings up so much for her, for you, for your relationship, like, feels like a lot.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, yeah, it was a. It was a funny place to be in. And oddly, because my parents are both writers, like, my parents are journalists and, like, met at the. Working at the local paper. So, like, it was strange working on this book with my mom. And, you know, I'm close with my dad still. We maintain our relationship. Like, he's a really wonderful person who's bad at being married is how my brothers and I explain it. But being journalists like my mom, I think really, maybe I'm this way because of her or them. I don't know. But the way that she processes the world is through writing. And my dad is also a writer who, like, wrote about our family for many years. Like, there was never a point where he was like, oh, no, a book about the divorce. He was like, okay, that's her story. Like, of course. Like, so I don't know. My dad's, like, just kind of supportive and my. Yeah. So this book was really different than the first one because my mom had this real life thing happened to her and completely blew up her life. Like just as a backstory for listeners, my dad left my mom very suddenly for an ex girlfriend after 30 years of marriage. Like right. I think it was like right before or around their 30 year anniversary and was really an out of left field thing just like temperamentally for my dad, for like my mom was. Did not see this coming. So the grief of it was like overnight your whole world being just kind of exploded. And so yeah, it was, you know, being. Being supportive and being with her for the first few years as she climbed out of this like really dark place. And then at the three year, around the three year point, she just didn't feel like she was actually doing that well. And it had already been three years and she was like, what can I do? And she had looked for books that would speak to this type of grief and she couldn't find anything. The closest thing she found were books on bereavement, but it didn't really address what she was going through. And I was kind of watching her like my mom's just like was cut, literally chopping wood, like with a wood splitter on her property for such a long time and like doing manual labor. And I was like, you are a writer. Like you, I think you should be working on something. I didn't need it to be a book about the divorce. But yeah, I'm definitely like the child who. My mom calls me a pusher. Like, I'm just like harassing you to be working on something. So she, yeah, she ended up. I gave her a tarot reading and the tarot reading kind of ended up like she was already thinking about this book. And then the tarot reader was like, yeah, you should write a memoir as a pathway to your own healing. And she just kind of took that as an affirmation of she, like she had the concept like a book that was, you know, about heartbreak and she wound up working on it. And once she had an initial manuscript, we came together. But yeah, it was, it was just really different because it was really, you know, coming from my mom's story and very, very personal.

[Elise Hu]

So, yeah, I'm interested in how authors and illustrators work together in that there were a lot of the illustrations in the book that actually carried a lot of information. You know, like something. There's something very arresting about like where your mom is on one page and your father's on the other page and it's like their inner demons or how they were as a child.

[Hallie Bateman]

That's one of my favorite spreads Actually.

[Elise Hu]

And that required that you actually do some of the writing. Right. Or do some of the probing in order to get to the image. So. So when you say she write, she wrote the manuscript first, what does that mean?

[Hallie Bateman]

So I would say, my mom built the framework. My mom knew that she wanted the book to be a countdown to your heart being unbroken. She knew what she wanted the sections to be. And she had so many of the pages. And when we came together, it becomes like we took her kind of draft and opened all of it up and started, you know, I start to apply my image brain. And it's hard to define, like, this is why the book, it doesn't say, written by Susie Hopkins and illustrated by Hallie Bateman, because it is so collaborative. Like, I'm writing with my mom, but I'm not gonna know what she like. I'm like, what if it's something like this? Or what about this angle? And then she's contributing and I'm writing, or we're both pitch pitching jokes to each other. But it's all coming out of a lot of conversation and a lot of squabbling and a lot of like, mother, daughter, like, oh, don't I know it.

[Elise Hu]

Don't I know it? That's like, every day.

[Hallie Bateman]

No exception. We are no exception. So the spread that you were talking about, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that's the perfect example of our working together. Because when my mom finished the draft, she was not through the hardest part. She was in the hardest part of post divorce. She was in what she calls the muddle in the book, that middle slog. And she was able to write about it. But there was a lot of stuff that we had to come to together. And some of it, including that spread, came about because I'm still in relationship with my dad, and I'm not going to be like, dump him. He sucks.

[Elise Hu]

And, Halle, if you could just describe this spread for folks, too, because I feel like I spoke about it rather abstractly.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah. So the spread is called blame, if you must. It's about who the person is when you're. You know, when you're divorcing them and who they started as. So it shows my mom and my dad kind of frowning at each other across the spread of the pages, and it details their realities. Like, next to her, it says, my reality, you lied and cheated. You didn't talk to me. You were never home. You never wanted to make love. You didn't care about me. His reality. You were always angry. You constantly Criticized me. You didn't want to spend time with me. You never wanted to have sex. You didn't care about me. And then you turn the page and you see them in the same positions, but as children. It shows my mom's childhood reality. I saw so much violence. I was scared. I never told anyone. I lived with shame. I was lonely. What I needed didn't matter. I needed unconditional love. And next to him it says, I heard. I was always wrong. I lived with shame. Crying was seen as a weakness. Anger and conflict were hidden. I was lonely. What I needed didn't matter. I needed unconditional love. So, yeah, the two spreads. The title says, blame if you must, but know that it's not always that simple.

[Elise Hu]

I just thought it was so beautiful and so relatable.

[Hallie Bateman]

Thanks. Yeah, so this fully came out of, you know, I think, like, I. I saw the image and was like, mom, what if. You know, what if we build it this way? Then my mom understands that she helps fill it out. Like, we each go back and forth in conversation to find the truth at the heart of it. So each page is like that. There are things where my mom saw what the image was. And then I tried to, you know, I tried to depict it and was like, is this what you're thinking? And then I add something. So I've illustrated books where I've never spoken to the author, but this is, you know, a completely different homemade book.

[Elise Hu]

So we should point out that even though it is about this, like, very traumatizing life event, the book is also humorous. You infuse it. You and your mom infuse it with a lot of wit, you know, and whimsy. And I'd love to talk about that and how the jokes came about. Or is that just kind of like part of your general personality and your affect and it just comes through on the page?

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, I think that, you know, it is part of my mom's and my fabric of being, especially when it comes to dark subject matter to joke. Like, our whole family, I think, has kind of a dark sense of humor and are. Yeah. Drawn to maybe darker topics, but a way of, you know, being able to hold those conversations is being able to laugh about them.

[Elise Hu]

It's a coping mechanism. I always say that. Cause, like, I'm always making kind of like, oh, wait, was that across the line? You know, but then I'm like, it's a coping mechanism. It's kind of like a journalist thing, I guess.

[Hallie Bateman]

Oh, totally. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that it was never. We weren't like, oh, and the book should be funny. It was just. Of course it's funny because my mom is so funny and it is funny. Like, oh my God, like, swiping on her dating apps. You would not believe. You would not believe the things that we have seen. And we put, you know what? We could have that in the book. But, like, you can't not laugh. And then there's just. Yeah, like, my mom going through the divorce. Like, there's a section in the book, like, one of the things that she advises is to sleep sideways on the bed because you're not sharing that bed with anyone anymore. So you don't have to sleep long ways. You can sleep across the middle. And I. My mom really did that and still does. And I remember, like, visiting her and going in her room and being like, what are you doing? But that's. That's a real. That's a real thing. And, and I think, like, to be. To see it as, you know, just a sad. A sad, serious topic.

[Dory Shafrier]

There were so many parts of the book where I was like, oh, my God, this is so dark, but it's so funny. And you just capture that tone so well. So thank you. Also, we got a couple of galleys here sent to me and my husband was like, huh? Like, did you order this? Or, you know, who dumped you?

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, I actually heard that from a couple people that. Their partners, like, wait, yeah. Should I be worried?

[Dory Shafrier]

Also, like, why are you getting, like, multiple copies of this book? We're interviewing her, I swear.

[Hallie Bateman]

We are.

[Dory Shafrier]

Really?

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Hallie Bateman]

Foreign.

[Dory Shafrier]

Did you, like, see your. Like, how has your mom changed over the course of working?

[Hallie Bateman]

Oh, my God. I. There's something happening with her that is still happening. That's happening. As our book comes out where I feel like I'm seeing her blossom, step into a new. Like, I. I'm sort of just watching. I'm like, what's happening? Like, I. I'm not. It's still in progress, but I saw her, you know, in the darkest place I've ever seen her be post divorce, then be, you know, in a middle period of patching it together. It's all, you know, it's all in the book. The walking in circles and hopping wood and all that stuff. And I think through the process of writing it and synthesizing everything and getting distance between her and the divorce, I've seen her become so much more herself and become very boundaried in a give no fucks way that I Think it usually takes people getting into their 90s to be like, no, I don't want to see her. No. Like, you know, like, they just stop having a filter. Like, my mom is very nice to be around. She's not like that. But she doesn't do anything she doesn't want to do.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Hallie Bateman]

And she was already kind of like that. But she's just. I just feel like she's really a lot more herself. And it made me realize how much when she was married, she was burying or what, you know, who knows? That's a really complicated thing to disentangle. But she has really, I think, stepped into herself in such a full way, and I think it comes through in this book, too. Of like, I. I would have never thought my mom would write a book like this. She's a very private person. She's not someone. I'm a Leo. I'm like. But she's. No, she's not.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's generational. Right. Like, I think that that generation is like, more sort of closed off and they're not used to sharing in the. In the same way. So. Yeah, it is. It is really. It's really interesting to see that.

[Hallie Bateman]

And she's a journalist. She spent her whole career writing about other people. And so, you know, I think our first book is kind of written to me, this book is her. It's her story. It's her voice. It's like, it's really cool. I'm really proud of her.

[Elise Hu]

That actually leads to a question that I wanted to ask you, which is that one of the tips in the book is about just taking notes, you know, and jotting things down during a personal crisis. We are in this time of crises all over the world for various reasons. But. But why was that such an important piece of advice that you wanted to get out there?

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah, so that's actually something that my mom did. You know, there was the tarot reading where she really was like, oh, I'm going to write this book. And. But even before that, she was taking copious notes the whole time. She actually had a box that. It was like a shoe box that she cut a hole in the top and just put a little drop a note in each time.

[Elise Hu]

Like a suggestion box.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Like comments and suggestions for the hotel. Okay.

[Hallie Bateman]

Which. So I think there's a couple things. One, when you're in a crisis like this, which I think you. With the fires like this, is this applies too, or with COVID it is going to be so hard to remember what this was like. And because we're in the middle of something that's traumatizing our brain is, like, doing a lot to, like, I don't know, steer us or shield us from what we might be experiencing. And specifically, in the book, my mom talks about writing down what happened and what did he say? And. And take these notes so you can look back later and maybe have the experience of, oh, I don't feel like this anymore, or you're sitting there missing him, and then you look back at the notes, and then you're like, oh, God, I forgot that he said that. Like, fuck that. Like, no. And then from just a writing perspective, you know, my mom was taking notes for a few years before she really started on the book. I think at that point, she probably would not have been ready to sit down and say, okay, like, I'm gonna start typing out a Google Doc. And if you jot down a note as the thought is passing through you and pop it in a folder or in a box or whatever, like, that's a way to capture it and tuck it away and revisit it when you're ready. And, yeah, I think it's, like, a. A really smart way to approach writing things down, especially when you're going through something hard.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Looking back now, I wish I would have done that during various dark periods of my own life. You know, like, oh, it'd be cool to have had notes of that and just, like, what you were going through at that time and, yeah, you know, what was. What was in your inner life? So I've found some of.

[Dory Shafrier]

Some of those things in, like, old G chats. And, like, there's. There's all these, like, inadvertent records of, like, how we were feeling that. Because when I was working on my memoir there, it was like, oh, like, when was that thing? How was I feeling about it? And, like, a lot of stuff I was able to sort of, like, unearth through.

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Gmail and G chat. Halle, you've been posting on Instagram about your babies. Can you. Can you talk a little bit about what that has been like and. And what kind of drawing and writing about motherhood has been like for you?

[Hallie Bateman]

Yeah. Speaking of taking notes when big things are happening, the first thing I thought of was, like, a few days after they were born or whenever the smoke cleared, like, not feeling like it happened until I had written everything down and I was actually in the hospital. Like, they gave me the epidural, and I had my sketchbook and was like, live, live blogging in my sketchbook of now. Two hours in the epidural feels this way and I hate it or whatever. So, yeah, I have twins, Max and nora, and they're 10 months old. And I think I've filled eight sketchbooks so far with. Yeah. For some reason, starting with their pregnancy and ongoing. I have been very kind of more religious about writing everything down. I don't know. Yeah, it's been really magical to have my babies and have my art making follow me into this. And I think, myself included, so many creative people are kind of terrified about how life is going to change when you have kids. And I certainly was like, I don't know, what is it? What does it look like to, you know, draw or write or, you know, what happens with your, your muses and your, you know, commitments when, when you have babies.

[Elise Hu]

So one insight that I have, and I'm not that much more experienced than you as a mother, my oldest is 12 and is that I felt like motherhood or parenthood in general, like, demanded because children require so much attention. I felt like it demanded my attention in a way that I wasn't really accustomed to giving. Like the kind of attention that babies or children demand was a kind of attention that, like, I don't think that I had honed or practiced, but I'm so glad that I learned it or they taught it to me because it is making me a better creative and a better listener as a journalist, you know, like, it has actually helped me become more empathetic in which then serves the art right. It serves whatever you're making too, because I think creativity is a lot about attention as well. So I think that it's expansive, you know, or it can be, can be how you metabolize it.

[Hallie Bateman]

I 100% agree. I think that there's a way where maybe before I had kids, I was just like, oh, but hours in the day. How does that work? You're so right. It's about, like, maybe I have less actual time, but that's true. So much of art is made when you're not sitting at the table. Like when you're not. For me, like, when I'm not actually sitting, drawing. It's about like the sparks of the ideas or the inspiration or just the things that, you know, notice and you're. Yeah, like when, when I'm with my babies, like, you can't be doing anything else. Like, especially with two. It's like I'm.

[Elise Hu]

I can't not imagine having two at the same time.

[Hallie Bateman]

Just ping ponging. But yeah, I've found it to be Incredibly inspiring. And yeah, I feel more powerful. Like I feel maybe just like creating life and being like there's not. I feel like spending now over a decade as a working artist who's plagued with self doubt. It's like I'm getting so bored of that and it's really coming out. Like this was a while ago, but I opened up a project I was working on and I felt a wave of doubt and I started sometimes to unfreeze myself. I'll journal about how nervous I am or what, whatever. And I wrote like a sentence and I was like, oh, I'm not nervous. Never mind. Like, I just don't, I think there's like some muscle memory of being, I don't know. Yeah. Of being like more scared or more hung up. And I'm not saying I'm free of those things. I. You could talk to me tomorrow and I would be plagued. But sure, sure. I do feel like something has like unlocked where for example, with the journals that I'm keeping, I'm like, yeah, I'll probably make a graph. I might try to make a graphic memoir at some point. I'm not like, oh, I wonder if I' get it together to make a memoir. Like, I'm just like, yeah, this is my life. Like, of course I'm taking. No, I, I, this is probably for something like I'm a little more realistic with, with like not thinking that like that it maybe some of the imposter syndrome has stripped away or something. It's like, did I ever think I was gonna have twins? Like, no. This is crazy, right? Do you guys feel that way at all?

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, it sounds like you just have a more sort of clear eyed view of yourself and what you're capable of. Yeah, I mean I definitely changed after I had my kid. I love what you're saying about that kind of shift from, ooh, I don't know, like, maybe I'll do this to like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna write a memoir at some point. Like it's such a, it sounds so simple, but it really is such a crucial, like reframe. I really, I really like that.

[Hallie Bateman]

Wow, it's fun to talk about.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I was gonna say, Hallie, it's been two fellow moms. Yeah, exactly. Well, and then fellow writers too. So it's been just such a delight to chat with you and hear about your process and talk a little bit more about the book. Where can folks find you?

[Hallie Bateman]

You can find me on Instagram Alith Bates, which is a handle I made up in 2007. So sorry, that's not actually my name.

[Elise Hu]

It's vintage.

[Hallie Bateman]

Change it. Yeah. So you can find me there and find our. Our book anywhere books are sold. And thank you so much for having me, you guys. This was really fun.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was looking at Halle's Instagram or one of her Instagram posts came up for me, and I think she's cut off her. All her hair.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, she has?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Even since she talked to us last week.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. Because when we talked to her, she had, like, really long hair and bangs. And she just posted a picture from a couple days ago where she said last night at our event, and she has, like, a pixie cut.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, cute. Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know.

[Elise Hu]

She looks super cute.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love it.

[Elise Hu]

I love the Instagram.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. I love the, like, book launch haircut.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, we have to ask Rachel Goodwin next time she's on with us too, about Emma Stone and shaving her head.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And, like, whether that affects, you know, whether that affects how she's thought about doing her makeup and stuff. Okay, let's go into the intention zone and check in on last week.

[Dory Shafrier]

Let's do it. Last. Last week I was gonna just try to get through the day, and you know what? I have successfully done that. I mentioned this on the casual chat, but I'm doing this 100 day sticker chall through my accountability workshop, and I basically just have to write a sentence every day and I get a sticker and it goes on a chart, and it's, like, oddly satisfying. If you want to check out the accountability workshops, they are@accountability workshops.com and they're run by Annie Hartnett and Tessa Fontaine, who are two amazing novelists. They're. It's just great. But anyway, the sticker challenge is like, that's like, my main intention because I am just, like, committed to it because I've set. Like, there's something about setting the bar so low, like just a sentence, that is very satisfying. But my, like, actual intention this week is to just, like, have fun at sectionals. Like, I just want to go and have fun and enjoy the whole experience and get to play some tennis and be in the desert. And I'm just excited. So I want to, you know, be. I want to be grateful for the whole situation and. And live in the moment and appreciate it this weekend. So that is my intention.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Have fun. That's gonna be great.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I'm excited.

[Elise Hu]

I love being out in the desert too. Like, Palm Springs is one of my favorite getaways because you are just there's a feeling. There's a mood of being out there that. That allows you to kind of like, downshift, I think, which is really nice. Even when it's super hot. We'll go there sometimes in the summer because, you know, Issa. Issa with the July birthday, likes to spend it in Palm Springs. But even then. Right, but even then, it. There is something really relaxing about being in the desert. For me, my intention was to get my. To improve my sleep hygiene. That was most nights. Most night nights. Most nights. Okay. Like, my recency bias was last night when I stayed out too late and went a little crazy. And so it doesn't feel great today, but I think in the aggregate over the week, I did all right. And it's very hard to put out a writing related intention because I like these. They feel insurmountable to me. But I am getting close to my screenplay deadline, so I'm gonna put as my intention this week to at least have Act 2 finished. And Act 2 is the hardest part. It's the longest. So I'm gonna put act two down as my intention this week. Wish me luck. Send me great. Send me Act 2. Send me those vibes. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sending the vibes. Vibes are being sent.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, everyone, thanks so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

See you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

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