Episode 338: The Case For Gossip with Kelsey McKinney

Summary

Podcast Title: Forever35
Episode: Episode 338: The Case For Gossip with Kelsey McKinney
Release Date: February 3, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Kelsey McKinney

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Introduction to Friendship Month

Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu kick off the episode by announcing the upcoming Friendship Month, which will focus on various aspects of friendships, such as making new friends, maintaining existing ones, and even ending unhealthy relationships. They encourage listeners to submit their friendship-related questions via call, text, or email, promising expert advice from their guests throughout the month.

Introducing Kelsey McKinney

The primary guest for this episode is Kelsey McKinney, a renowned reporter and writer based in Philadelphia. Kelsey is a co-owner and features writer at Defector.com and the recently retired co-host of the highly acclaimed podcast Normal Gossip. She is also the author of her first novel, Godspare the Girls (2018), and is set to release her nonfiction book, You Didn't Hear This for Me: Mostly True Notes on Gossip, the following week.

Doree:
“At [09:00] Dory Shafrier: Kelsey McKinney, who is our guest, is a reporter and writer who lives in Philadelphia. She is a co-owner and features [e-mail] and is the newly retired co-host of the wildly popular podcast Normal Gossip.”

Kelsey's Transition from Normal Gossip

Kelsey discusses her decision to step away from Normal Gossip after four years, highlighting the challenges of maintaining a creative project in the volatile landscape of journalism and new media. She expresses confidence in her successor, Rachel Hampton, praising her as a "genius" and "a very upcoming bright star."

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [17:30] Kelsey McKinney: [...] I have been, you know, having an opportunity to have creative thoughts again. Like, when you're so deep in a project that's as big as Normal Gossip, you can't really come up for air.”

The Concept and Evolution of Gossip

Elise Hu steers the conversation toward Kelsey’s upcoming book, asking her to elaborate on the case for gossip—a central theme in the book. Kelsey explains that gossip, often maligned as merely malicious talk, serves a foundational role in human communication and societal functioning.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [23:36] Kelsey McKinney: [...] gossip is a tool. And you can't. A hammer isn't a moral good or a moral evil. [...] gossip is supposed to be just conversation between two people about someone who's not present. It's not intentionally malicious.”

She delves into the anthropological perspective, citing theories that suggest language evolved primarily as a means to share information about others, which is essential for social cohesion and survival.

Gossip in Pop Culture: Analyzing 'Mean Girls'

Kelsey offers a critical analysis of both the original Mean Girls movie and its recent musical adaptation. She highlights how the removal of serious themes, such as the unethical behavior of a coach, alters the narrative's complexity and moral weight.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [27:42] Kelsey McKinney: [...] what I was actually trying to do when I was gossiping was try to figure out what I believed. [...] the Burn Book has this kind of deep, ugly truth in it.”

She contends that the original film’s inclusion of serious issues like abuse adds depth, making the story resonate more profoundly compared to the sanitized version in the musical, which lacks these darker elements.

The Weaponization of Gossip in the Digital Age

The conversation shifts to the modern misuse of gossip, especially on social media platforms. Kelsey addresses how the rapid dissemination of rumors and misinformation can lead to harmful conspiracy theories and the spread of false narratives.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [31:10] Kelsey McKinney: [...] right now, right. [...] it's like, I can go on TikTok and at the most innocuous level, lay out a bunch of Instagram Easter eggs that Taylor Swift has posted and say, reputation Taylor's version is coming next week. Right. And there's actually no basis for that.”

She emphasizes the importance of skepticism, especially when gossip originates from unreliable or distant sources, urging listeners to critically evaluate the validity of the information before accepting or acting upon it.

Behind the Scenes of 'Normal Gossip'

Elise inquires about the process Kelsey and her team followed in verifying and presenting gossip on their podcast. Kelsey clarifies that Normal Gossip was never intended to be a journalistic endeavor but rather a platform to explore emotional truths within stories.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [38:53] Kelsey McKinney: [...] we would be making all these little adjustments. And those are because we didn't want to hurt anyone. We didn't want the purpose of the podcast was never to hurt anyone or, like, put their shit on display.”

She elaborates on how they transformed real stories by changing names, locations, and details to protect identities while retaining the core emotional essence of each tale.

Personal Impact of Working with Gossip

Kelsey reflects on how her deep engagement with gossip, both professionally and personally, has influenced her perception and approach to it. She admits becoming more skeptical and analytical, often assessing how she would retell stories differently, which adds a layer of introspection to her interactions.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [42:30] Kelsey McKinney: [...] it's made me a lot more skeptical because I realized, you know, like, everybody believes that they're. The story they heard came from a friend of a friend.”

This critical stance helps her navigate the complexities of modern gossip, ensuring she remains objective and thoughtful in her discussions.

Upcoming Book Tour and Closing Remarks

Kelsey announces her forthcoming book tour, sharing details about the cities she'll be visiting and encouraging listeners to attend her events.

Kelsey McKinney:
“At [43:47] Kelsey McKinney: [...] all of the Tickets are at KelseyandBikkenneybook.com which will show you the huge list of cities.”

Doree and Elise express their enthusiasm for Kelsey’s book and encourage listeners to support her endeavors. The episode concludes with brief personal updates from the hosts about their own self-care practices and intentions for the week.

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Notable Quotes

• Kelsey McKinney at [16:00]:
  “I go to a weightlifting gym, which is like strength training. So I've been going to pick up very heavy things and put them back, which has been making me feel better.”

• Kelsey McKinney at [23:36]:
  “I think it's a tool. And you can't. A hammer isn't a moral good or a moral evil. [...] gossip is supposed to be just conversation between two people about someone who's not present.”

• Kelsey McKinney at [31:10]:
  “It's like, I can go on TikTok and at the most innocuous level, lay out a bunch of Instagram Easter eggs that Taylor Swift has posted and say, reputation Taylor's version is coming next week. Right. And there's actually no basis for that.”

• Kelsey McKinney at [38:53]:
  “We were never doing it. Which means that. Okay, what is truth? Right. That's the, like, big question here.”

---

Conclusion

Episode 338 of Forever35 delves deep into the multifaceted nature of gossip with Kelsey McKinney, exploring its historical significance, cultural impact, and modern-day challenges. Through insightful discussions and personal reflections, Kelsey presents a nuanced perspective on why gossip matters and how it shapes our understanding of truth and relationships. Whether you're fascinated by the mechanics of human communication or interested in the ethical implications of sharing information, this episode offers a comprehensive exploration of gossip's role in our lives.

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For More Information:

• Kelsey McKinney's Book Tour: KelseyandBikkenneybook.com
• Forever35 Podcast: Forever35Podcast.com
• Submit Questions: Call or text 781-591-0390 or email forever35podcastmail.com

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding Group A, please have your boarding passes.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And before we get to our little check in, I just want to mention that next week we are starting our friendship month.

[Elise Hu]

Yay. An entire themed month on friendship.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, and we're we're kicking it off the week of Valentine's and Galentine's Day, so seems sort of apartment and we're also going to be having one of our friendship experts answer questions about friendship at the end of the month. So please call, text, email us your questions about friendship if you need advice and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com.

[Elise Hu]

I feel like this is going to be a really fruitful month of conversations door because when we just in the course of taking questions and voicemails for the mini apps on Wednesdays we get a lot of questions about friendships anyway. We do people moving into new towns and wanting to make friends, maintaining friendships, ending friendships just like this is a very key relationship in our lives. So these guests are going to be our guide this month and then when you all have questions, one of our guests is going to be back to answer yours. So yeah, I think we're going to learn a lot.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I agree Elise. I agree. And in.

[Kelsey McKinney]

In.

[Dory Shafrier]

In a sort of, like, indirect way, our guest today is. Is about friendship. Like, touches on themes of friendship because she writes and. And has a podcast or had a podcast about gossip, which is a way that friendships are made, contained, and sustained. Yeah. So it's interesting that. That she is our last guest before Friendship Month actually kicks off.

[Elise Hu]

She's sort of. If you don't know, we are talking about the great, the indefatigable Kelsey McKinney, who is the longtime host of Normal Gossip, who only recently passed the baton. And we will do a formal intro for her later. But Dora and I are super excited, so we must preview now that we have Kelsey on the show today.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, yes, yes. Anyway, what's going on with you, Elise?

[Elise Hu]

Well, speaking of friendship, I gathered folks for Lunar New Year for a little banquet.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Last Wednesday. It would be now Happy Year of the Snake to everyone who celebrates. It's the Year of the Snake. All right. Yeah, Very, very appropriate. But we did do this Lunar New Year banquet at those lazy Susan tables at a Chinese restaurant. And one thing that came up during Lazy Susan Ning was there is kind of a collective. You learn a kind of collective and communal mentality when sitting around a lazy Susan, because when you want to spin it, you have to mind everyone else. And whether they are. They are grabbing food at the same moment or they are also trying to go to turn the lazy Susan at the middle of the table. And so there was a kid at our table, a sixth grader, um, and he, like, just went for it and decided he wanted kung pao, and, like, decided to spin. But then other people also happened to be going for whatever dish was in front of him at the moment. And it was a great example of, like, how com. How these lazy Susans sort of teach you to be more communal or think.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

It sparked a little conversation. And then one of my friends was like, do you think that cultures that sit around round tables end up being more, like, think more of the collective? Because you have to, like, mind everyone else.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow, that's so interesting.

[Elise Hu]

The other thing that was really funny about this dinner was that they were so slammed. They were like, seriously in the weeds. And I don't know if three people called it sick or something, but there was one point, like, 35 minutes into the meal where one of my friends was like, could we get water, please?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, no, no.

[Elise Hu]

And the waiter was just like, no.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, no.

[Elise Hu]

And then we were like, oh, okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right. I guess. Okay, just deal with it.

[Elise Hu]

Exactly. The whole attitude of the service was just like, just deal with it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And then. And then we tried Chinese. I had one other Chinese speaking friend, and we were like, you know, we did the whole like, sorry, excuse me, but in Chinese, to see if we could maybe sway them more. And it was not helpful at all.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

But that was a fun time. It was a fun time anyway.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, well, that's good.

[Elise Hu]

In the end, it came out to, like, 31 per person. Oh. So quite a deal, that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Quite a deal. That's great. And that's with tips.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

And then my friend Alex, who was there, he's like, did you do the customary 20 tip for that kind of service? No, I still tip them 20. He's like, this is why there's no accountability. This is why there's no accountability. It's not like it makes.

[Dory Shafrier]

The service was so bad.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, that's really funny.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Well, I also. I have one other sort of Chinese tale to tell, which is know my foster kitten, Minx.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

So still at my house, still stinking it up.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, boy. Okay, okay.

[Elise Hu]

He's a frequent user of the litter box. And he's just the sweetest cat, though. And he's like, always on me. I really am getting attached to Minx. And then Abe, my. My cat, who's been in my family for many years. My. The cat that is not foster. Abe and Minx are starting to get along. And then. And then the original owner of Minx, who had to surrender him, checked in on him, and she gave me a call and she's like, how is Ming doing? And I was like, what? Who? And she goes, the Ming? And I'm like, what? Minx's name is actually Ming. M I N G. What? Ming is Chinese, yo. What?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God. How did. How did this. How did this mix up occur?

[Elise Hu]

I have no idea. I guess I just named him Minx. I thought it was Minx when I went over to the house that night on January 9th in the frenzy of, like, his house burning down and them needing to surrender their pets. And I thought it was Minx. M I N X. And all along we've been calling him Minx. And it turns out he comes to a Chinese American family and had a Chinese name. Anyway, he's Ming.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow. Was his. Was his original family Chinese?

[Kelsey McKinney]

No.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, that's even weirder.

[Elise Hu]

We are still searching for a house. A forever home for me, the Ming.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. All right. Okay.

[Elise Hu]

But emotionally, maybe it won't happen. We'll see. Rob keeps going, you know this is our cat now. Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

You're just in denial about it, but that's okay. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, you should. Go for it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Kelsey McKinney, who is our guest, is a reporter and writer who lives in Philadelphia. She is a co owner and features [e-mail] and is the newly retired co host of the wildly popular podcast Normal Gossip. Her first novel, Godspare the Girls, was published in the summer of 2018. 2021. And her first nonfiction book, you didn't hear this for me. Mostly True Notes on Gossip, is out next week. Yay. Yay. And she does freelance, but she says she's only taking very stupid and fun assignments right now.

[Elise Hu]

What a dream.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a dream.

[Kelsey McKinney]

A dream.

[Elise Hu]

She's so much fun to talk to.

[Dory Shafrier]

She just. I'm a. Yeah, she's great.

[Elise Hu]

Kelsey fan. We had a delightful conversation with her, and it went all sor of directions. We're so excited for you to hear it.

[Dory Shafrier]

There were, like, multiple times where I was like, I don't really have a question. I just want to, like, talk about this thing with you. Like, can we just talk about this thing? And she was like, yeah, the best kind of conversation.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, she was great. And I think you'll. I think you'll really enjoy the conversation that we had with her. So before we get to her, though, we mentioned this at the top of the show, but reminder that our voicemail and text number is 781-591-0390. You can email us at forever35podcastmail.com on our website, Forever35podcast.com we have links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're on Instagram @forever35 podcast, and our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35, where we do weekly casual chats. We do monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We do our Forever 35 questionnaire, which is like a fun mini. Mini interview.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Of our guests. And yeah, it's just. It's just a fun time over there.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So check that out. All right, here is Kelsey.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

Why choose a sleep number smart bed.

[Dory Shafrier]

So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now save 50% off on the new sleep number limited edition smart bed, limited time, exclusively at a sleep number store near you see store or sleepnumber.com for details. Kelsey, welcome to Forever 35. Elise and I are so excited to have you on the show.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you both so much for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, of course. We always start off by asking our guests if they have any sort of self care practice. And this can be very, very broadly defined. So is there anything you're doing right now that I guess like brings you any sort of calm or joy?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, thank you for asking. I. As you know, I'm in the lead up when we're recording this to the publication of this book. My body is at a very high stress level, which is bad. Um, so I have been. I go to a weightlifting gym, which is like strength training. Um, so I've been going to pick up very heavy things and put them back, which has been making me feel better. And then I've also been watching really old episodes of the Real Housewives of New York. So, you know, we contain multitudes.

[Elise Hu]

We sure do.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. I watched the first couple seasons of the Real Housewives of New York and interviewed some of them, like way back in the day. Yes. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do not let me derail us with that. I'm gonna lose it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Jill Zarin. We had a whole breakfast together.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God. Okay, we're gonna sideline that later.

[Elise Hu]

Just to bring us back, please.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Kelsey McKinney. See, you know I'm really serious because I'm like Kelsey McKinney. I'm doing the, like, full name, full name, full name. My fellow Texan, the vast majority of our listeners know you from Normal Gossip, which you started with Alex Laughlin and recently announced you're going to be stepping away from. And so my first question is just how you're feeling about this big decision and what you've been up to or what you've been thinking about, you know, as you design your next steps post.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Show and post book. I love. I mean, I love Normal Gossip, and I loved working on it so much. Like, it was such a blast for me. And I spent three years of my life, four years of my life, almost doing it. And I, you know, it's the longest I've ever worked on anything in my career, which is maybe a testament to how poorly stabilized journalism and new media are, that that was the longest I was ever able to, like, really dig into. And I'm feeling really great. I have stepped away at a time where I feel like I made the best product I can make, and I feel really great about every. All of the work that we did together. And I am so thrilled to hand it off to Rachel Hampton, who I think is a genius and a very upcoming bright star, and I think she's going to kill it. Like, I've been listening to some of the early stuff they're working on, and I'm like, she's going to blow me out of the water, which is like, the best compliment in the world. So what have I been working on? I've been working on promoting this book mainly, but I've also been, you know, having an opportunity to have creative thoughts again. Like, when you're so deep in a project that's as big as Normal Gossip, you can't really come up for air. Right. I wrote every script of the podcast, and all of Those scripts were 3,000 4,000 words long, and that's 20 scripts a year. So I've been buried for a while.

[Elise Hu]

Oof.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I. I get it. I get it. I mean, my.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, I know.

[Dory Shafrier]

You host retired almost, you know, almost a year ago, and. And Elise came on and the show has evolved and changed. It's not the exact same show that as it was before, but people, you know, people move on and.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, I think it's nice as a creative, too, to, like, make something a little different. Right. I'm sure for you it's been interesting to do the same project with someone else here. Right. Like, that makes it gives it, like, a new life and makes it exciting again. You never want your work creatively to feel stale and like, totally plugging in pieces.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right? Yeah. And I, and I've said before, like, I also knew for me personally, I knew I never wanted to have like, Kate version two, you know, like a doppelganger. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, right. And, you know, I think it's, it's like cool to see that the same thing, the same show can exist and the ethos of it can, can still exist with a different person. And I know that that is what will happen to normal gossip as well. So I'm glad you're feeling good about it too. I would actually love to get into a little bit more of what we were just casually talking about before we started recording, which is like the origin of the book and why you wanted to write this book and how there hasn't really been a comprehensive book like this before. But I'm also interested in this idea of, like, you couldn't talk about everything. And so I also just kind of want to hear about how you decided what you wanted to put in the book.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. So it's funny because when normal gossip first started taking off, right when it started, like, becoming more popular and a lot of people were listening to it, my beautiful agent, who I love very much, Dana Murphy, was getting a lot of emails that were like, does Kelsey want to write a book about gossip? There are no books about gossip. And I kept being like, no, I don't want to write a book about gossip. I'm just doing this fun thing that I'm doing, telling these gossip stories and that's it. And then genuinely, I read Sabrina Imbler's book, Everywhere the Light Reaches, which I think is a beautiful book. And I thought it kind of like, you know, when you read a book that's very good and kind of like open something in you where you're like, oh, there's a way into this thing that I hadn't considered. Right. And I sent dana this like 4 minute long voice memo that was like, hey, I think I figured it out actually, because I really think that when you're working creatively as a writer and a thinker and a cultural critic, you're trying to figure out which format a story is going to communicate itself best in. Right. So the reason normal gossip works is that it's an audio medium. Right. Like, I couldn't do that same show in writing because it wouldn't work, the tone wouldn't be communicated. And so I just, I wanted to write the book because there were things I wanted to say and talk about and think about really deeply. That just didn't belong in this show about, like, people going on a bachelorette trip and, like, lighting things on fire. Fire, right. Like, the. To totally. They were just very different. And so one of the big problems I had working on the book is that gossip is this huge thing. It's really amorphous, and it takes over, like, a lot of your life. And when you start looking at the world through a question of, like, is this gossip or is it not? More often than not, you're like, yeah, that's gossip. Right. The Pope is gossiping, actually. Right. Like, it's pretty easy to convince yourself. I was saying that. Yeah. Something I really struggled with was, like, thinking that it needed to be everything that I was like, this book is the. One of the first books about gossip. Comprehensive leave. It isn't academic. There are several academic books. And I was like, oh, I have to include all this stuff. I have all these things I need to include. And at the end of the day, like, I'm not the right person to talk about all of those things, that I'm not a subject matter expert on everything. Right. And so at some point I realized, you know, somebody else is going to write another great book about gossip one day. And, like, I hope they do. And I hope when they do, they come to me, because I have a list of shit that I couldn't write that I will just hand to them and be like, here you go, babe.

[Elise Hu]

But what comes through so well in the book is just the case for gossip. Right. Because you do touch on the history. You do touch on how so many of our oldest stories in the Western canon, the Odyssey, the Iliad, they're all actually oral tradition. They started as gossip in the first place. There's kind of a moral case for gossip. There is a component of it is that it's like a matter of good citizenship. And so make the case for gossip for us. Especially if there are folks like you who grew up in certain religious traditions in which it's truly frowned upon.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. So it's funny because it's so easy for me to make this argument at this point because I've read so much of this, and, like, it's an anthropological argument. It's not even me. Right. Like, there are anthropologists from way back saying that they believe that the only reason we can talk at all, like, the reason we developed language as a species was to gossip, was to be able to tell each other, like, this man is dangerous, or like, that Tribe is doing this, or we've gotten information from these people that we can use. Right. The ability to share information about each other is fundamental to being a person. And so I think when we talk about, like, gossip in the scary, like, font that is like, bread full of sins and whatever, you're not usually talking about gossip, right? What people are actually talking about when they say, like, gossip is evil or it hurts people or. Or those kinds of things, they're usually talking about slander or libel. They're talking about lies, which is not what gossip means. Gossip is supposed to be just conversation between two people about someone who's not present. It's not intentionally malicious.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sorry. This isn't, like, really a spoiler because no one.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I don't believe in spoilers anyway, so go for it. You.

[Dory Shafrier]

That you had kind of started off taking the point of view that, like, gossip was unfairly maligned and you were going to sort of redeem it, and instead you kind of came to the conclusion as you write. The. The more I read and thought, the more I took gossip submissions for the podcast, told them to the world, and watch the way listeners respond to them, the more I realized what gossip actually is, a way of searching for truth. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, because I was like, ooh, she's really getting to something here, you know?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. I think we're in an interesting moment right now, right. Where gossip has been redeemed and people are starting to do an interesting thing where they're saying, like, gossip is a moral good. Right. So a pendulum that was at one point saying, gossip is evil. It's women's talk. Everyone has to stop doing it has now swung to the point where people are saying that actually me talking about my best friend behind her back is good for society. And it's like, oh, right, that's maybe, like, a little too far for my comfort. Right. I don't think that gossip is a moral good or a moral evil. I think it's a tool. And the more that. And you can't. A hammer isn't a moral good or a more moral evil. Right. A hammer is what you do with it. And I think the more I thought about gossip, which was constantly and incessantly looking at everything through a lens of gossip, the more I kind of realized that, like. Like, what I was actually trying to do when I was gossiping was try to figure out what I believed. Right. You're. You're talking about someone else trying to figure out if they're good or not. The best example of this is reality television. Right? Because you watch reality television and you watch them gossip, and you realize, like, everybody thinks that they know the truth. Right. Everyone telling their version of the story thinks that their version is right. And, like, as a viewer, you're like, I've seen all three of these versions. None of them are right. Right. You're all wrong in some really subtle way. And I think when you look at a lot of gossip stories, you can almost get to the point where you can figure out maybe where something started. But, yeah, I don't know. It's complicated.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It reminds me of a part of the book that I'd love for you to unpack a little bit, which was when you were analyzing Mean Girls and the New Mean Girls. So there was Mean Girls, the original movie, in the aughts, which is a cultural milestone. But then lately, or more recently, the Mean Girls musical came out, which was the movie adaptation of the musical, which they then had to update. And there were certain elements of the story that had to be changed or were changed, but then kind of had ripple effects. So why don't you set that up for us?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Sure. Yeah. It's funny because the essay in the book that's about Mean Girls is also about MeToo. And a lot of times when people have been asking me about the book, they're separating those two things, right? They're saying, like, can you talk about gossip and in Mean Girls? And can you talk about it in me, too? And it's been really interesting because I think it's hard to recognize that those two things are connected. And I'm obsessed with that. Right. Because the original Mean Girls, I'm going to pretend that people have never seen this movie is like, everyone has seen it, but it's like four popular girls, right? And they have this cool book full of secrets. And the book full of secrets is called the Burn Book. And things inside the book of secrets have every. It's everything from, like, this girl made out with a hot dog. Two at the very real and dangerous side, a coach is making out with a student.

[Elise Hu]

Right? Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And that is a really pivotal part of the first Mean Girls movie, because one of the pages in the Burn book is a lie, which is that Tina Fey's character is dealing drugs. And the whole reason that they have to take that book seriously is because one of those pages is true. And the page in there that is true is that a coach has been making out with studio students, which is a huge problem. Right. Like a Legal problem, an ethical problem. It's awful, right? And that is why this book is taken so seriously, is that it has this kind of deep, ugly truth in it. And when I went to see the new Mean Girls movie, I was. I was really surprised going in because I knew that Jon Hamm had agreed to play Coach Carr. And Coach Carr is the character in the first movie who is making out with teen girls on camera, right? Like that's part of the movie. And I was like, why on earth would this man agree to do this role? Like, that's crazy. And then you watch it and it's because they excised that whole plot, right? It doesn't exist anymore. And I. I find that interesting because it makes the movie more palatable, right? It makes it less complicated. And it also defangs the burn book in a way. It makes the burn book just this, like, silly little girly thing full of stupid girly secrets that they're, like, tittering about. And that's a real problem, right? Because part of what's so interesting about the secrets that people carry and the gossip that we share is that there are usually pieces of truth behind almost all of those things. Like, if a rumor has weight and can fly, there's something there. And so I think it always really bothered me, right, watching the new version that they had taken it out, because I was like, I think that's part of what makes the first movie so great, is that it is really complicated, is kind of dark.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

I feel like we're in this very. We're in this dangerous cultural moment where gossip has also been weaponized by people to spread conspiracy theories and, you know, all. All kinds of things that. That do not have a basis in truth. And I'm wondering how. How you think we can combat that. You know, I know that's obviously not your misinformation. Well, it's not. I know that's not, like, your job, but I'm wondering, like, if you have any thoughts on the way that gossip has been weaponized in this way. Just.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's scary. There is a move happening right now, and that's happened forever, right? We're not in a new situation where people are saying, like, I'm gonna use rumors and gossip as a way to, like, create a conspiracy theory against the government, which will I can then use to, like, ruin people's lives. Like, that has happened forever, right? There's evidence of it happening in ancient Rome.

[Elise Hu]

What.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What's complicated about the moment we're in right now is how fast you can spread that shit. Right. It's not just like I tell you and you tell your sister and your sister tells her a group of friends, and now, like, our section of the community knows. It's like, I can go on TikTok and at the most innocuous level, lay out a bunch of Instagram Easter eggs that Taylor Swift has posted and say, reputation Taylor's version is coming next week. Right. And there's actually no basis for that. Right. It's just my opinion based on some weird facts that I've kind of cherry picked to make an argument. And that's really scary. Right. Something I've been thinking a lot about in talking about this book is how, how you should, how can you determine whether or not your gossip is something that you should take seriously or whether it's something you should be skeptical of. Yeah. And my instinct is always that you should be skeptical of everything. But the further the degree of the person giving you this information is both from you and from the source of the gossip, the higher degree of skepticism you should have. So if someone who you don't know, who's on your phone in front of your face is telling you something, you should be skeptical of them. You have no knowing whether or not that person is trustworthy or not. And if they're telling you something that, especially if it is baked in, like what I would call nefarious intent. Right. So the idea that, like, this is happening because the government hates you. Right. Or whatever it is, you should be very, very skeptical of that. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I, I, I really like that you brought up the, the gaylort op ed.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Because he's waiting for somebody to get really mad at me about this. I'm like, it's gonna come. Somebody's gonna be mad.

[Dory Shafrier]

But I'm not mad. I'm like, I want to get into it because to me, that, like, that felt like, Wait, set this up first.

[Elise Hu]

There was a gayer.

[Dory Shafrier]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes. So for years there have been these, there have been a group of Taylor Swift fans who call themselves gaylors who think that Taylor Swift is gay and just hasn't, hasn't come out publicly and have parsed all of her lyrics, all of her songs, everything she has ever done in her personal life, and found what they think are Easter eggs and clues to her gayness. Kelsey, would you say that that is okay?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, maybe that's right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay. And all of this has sort of existed on, like, I don't want to say the fringes, but hadn't really been like, mainstreamed. And then someone wrote an op ed in the New York Times that was like, hey, here's all the evidence that Taylor Swift is gay. And it was basically a Gaylor PowerPoint presentation.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, yeah. It broke containment. Yeah, yes, exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

It broke containment. And it was this sort of like, fascinating moment where you saw all of these conspiracy theories and all this gossip that has kind of existed in the ether on social media, on TikTok, on Reddit, and now it had been kind of taken out of there. And so it was this like fascinating cultural moment. So I don't know, I don't really have a question here. I just kind of wanted to talk about it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Because I. Yeah, I could talk about it till the cows come home. Right? Like, everyone has their own bias on this. Right? Like, whether you think Taylor Swift kissed Carly Kloss on the mouth or not is like, that's between you and whatever God you believe in. Right? Like, that's not my business. You can believe whatever you want about someone you've never met. That's just how it goes. But what I find so, so interesting about the gaylor stuff in particular is like, listen, I grew up evangelical. I'm well trained in the ability to manipulate any close reading of a text into what I wanted to say, right? So I can't, I can't fault anyone for being able to look at these lyrics and say, like, here's what I see in them. Yeah, yeah, that's great, whatever. But I think the thing that is so disconcerting to me about the gaylor stuff and many other celebrity like, drama that we have seen in the past few years is that there's a kind of internal belief that fans have when they're talking about this that they know the right answer. They're like, well, I know that this is true because I know Taylor Swift. And for me I'm like, you don't know her. She only knows like a hundred people and they all have a hundred million dollars. Like, it's not you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right, right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's one of the most private people in the world because she's also one of the richest.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She has to be. So, like, you don't know. They've never said. In fact, the only things that have ever been said publicly about this are her emphatically saying, I'm an ally.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And so you get into a really muddy space where it's like, one. There's a very long history in this country and others of outing people who do not want to be outed. So even if she is, is, it's not your fucking business. And two, it's a weird situation where it's like, you don't know her. You don't know this woman. She's a stranger. And you're so hell bent on your opinion being the right one, which is really scary to me.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, we're really seeing that with the celebrity lawsuits right now. The. The dueling celebrity lawsuits between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, and then our feeds being full of the. These Twitter sleuths, or not Twitter TikTok sleuths, making cases based on close readings of the lawsuits and the evidence released and all of that.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I mean, it would have been really helpful for me if they had done this while I was writing the book instead of after I was done with. Is really interesting watching the kind of like, true he said, she said of the Baldoni Lively case where you're seeing people come out in full force on one side after every single update. And it's like, well, you should maybe wait, maybe hold your judgment until the next shoe drops so that you know what you're looking at here. Because, like, so much of celebrity culture right now is about controlling a narrative. It's about making sure that your side is the one seen as the heroes, regardless of what you're doing. And the truth of reality is just messier than that. Right. Like, usually, like, victims are never blameless. Right. Like, it's. People are messy and difficult and like, it's not as simple as we want it to be, especially as outsiders.

[Elise Hu]

So this leads me to a question about sort of behind the curtain at normal gossip, which is because you had so many submissions of gossip, and these stories involve so many characters and sometimes animals. Goldfish, hermit crabs. Like my episode.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

How did you determine the truth? Or like, truth in quotes, like, to the level of your satisfaction in order to tell the story.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, I mean, we said from the very beginning it's not journalism. Right. We're not doing journalism on normal gossip. We were never doing it. Which means that. Okay, what is truth? Right. That's the, like, big question here. Because you could even argue that from a journalistic perspective, right. Of like, what is the truth? Like, you choose who your sources are.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You choose what questions you ask them. Like, at the end of the day, everything is put through a filter. And so what we were trying to do in relationship to truth with the normal gossip stories is get to a like to emotional truth. Right. So, like, we were changing names, we were changing locations. We were sometimes changing animals to other animals. We were changing bird lamps from other kind of lamps. Right? Like, it was like we were making all these little adjustments. And those are because we didn't want to hurt anyone. We didn't want. The purpose of the podcast was never to hurt anyone or, like, put their shit on display. We didn't want to do that. And so we tried as best as we could to figure out, like, what's the heart of this story, right? And if it went through eight different people, which parts would stay. Right? And that was kind of the thought experiment we were always doing. And part of the way we would do this is we would, like, pick the stories we were going to use. We would talk about them, and then I would think about them for, like, however long it took before it was time for me to write the script. And then I would write down what I remembered before I went back to the doc. Because I was like, by the time I got back to the doc to write the script, I had changed stuff in my head. In the. In my version of the story, I had made it different. And that was always really fascinating because every time I was like, this one, I remember perfectly. Every week I would be like, this one. I actually remember exactly the same. Nothing has changed. And then I would open the document and be like, oh, my God, this is not what we had before. Right. And then I would kind of marry them into the new story, which is like, okay, so these are the parts that mattered, right? These are the emotional truths of the story that were important.

[Elise Hu]

Well, Kelsey has. I think I kind of already know the answer to this question because it is so baked into your personality. But I was curious whether focusing on the structure of storytelling gossip, like retelling gossip, and. Yeah, yeah. Researching the history and the weight of it for your book, has it dulled or ruined any of your personal enjoyment of gossip and gossiping?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, that's interesting. I think it's some. In some ways. No, Right. Like, I can listen to anyone talk about anything, even anyone I've never heard of before for any amount of time. It's how I became, like, interested in F1 just by watching, like, one Netflix documentary where they were like, this guy hates this guy. And I was like, all right, I'm locked in. Right? Like, I'm now. Now care deeply about this. But I do think it has in a couple of ways. It's made it a little. It's made me a little bit more of a difficult gossip. That one. I'M much more skeptical than I used to be. Right. I have, because of the podcast, experienced a very interesting and rare thing where I would be told a gossip story. I would rewrite it right into my cadence and my tone and my order, and I would put it in a voicemail memo. I would send it off to someone, and then, you know, because I couldn't put it on the podcast for whatever reason. And several times, a story that I did that with has made it back to me from someone else. Right? They've said, I have something great. You're gonna love it. And then they've proceeded to tell me a story in my cadence that I scripted in my order, and I'm like, oh, so that's interesting, because this has now been through eight people, and it's returned. Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

Weird.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And so it's made me a lot more skeptical because I realized, you know, like, everybody believes that they're. The story they heard came from a friend of a friend. Everyone believes that. Right. They're all saying, like, I got this information from this person who saw it firsthand. And I would be sitting there saying, like, I know that didn't happen because my source was there, and I have a voice memo from two years ago that I sent. Right. And so that is, like, an interesting problem that has made me a lot more skeptical, and I think I've gotten a lot better at gossiping. And so now it's like, while people are talking, I'm kind of, like, thinking about how I would do it differently, which is very annoying. Should stop.

[Elise Hu]

You're not giving people notes, though, are you? Are you giving people notes as they're telling you a story?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like, no.

[Elise Hu]

You could cut out the middle section here and maybe, like, speed up getting to the climax. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Just in my heart, we're such huge.

[Elise Hu]

Fans of yours, and thank you.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Likewise to both of you. I'm thrilled to be here and so.

[Elise Hu]

Excited about the book. Oh, sorry.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. And I was just gonna ask if our listeners want to catch you on book tour, where can they get that information? And do you want to just give us a quick preview of some of the cities you're stopping in?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Totally. Yeah. So all of the Tickets are at KelseyandBikkenneybook.com which will show you the huge list of cities. But we're doing the east Coast. New York, Boston, D.C. the to Philly, where I live. We're doing the west Coast. San Francisco. Or. No, not San Francisco. I lied. Maybe later. Seattle, Louisiana. Dallas, all sorts of places. So it'll be really fun. I'm working on the story that I'm going to tell at that show. So come out. It'll be fun, I promise.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Fantastic. Great. Kelsey McKinney, thank you so much.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Thank you both for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

Kelsey was such a delight.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Go get her book, everyone.

[Dory Shafrier]

Go get her book. She's also so cool. She's just like a cool person.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. We will go see her when she is here live.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. I'm so excited for that. So we're in the intention zone. Last week, my intention was to have fun at sectionals, and I am here to report that I had fun at sectionals.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did.

[Dory Shafrier]

It was great. I had a really good time. I'm still doing my 100 days of stickers. I have not missed a day yet. I brought the sticker calendar with me.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Dory Shafrier]

To the desert. And some stickers.

[Elise Hu]

Gotta earn that sticker.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I gotta earn that sticker. I can't, you know, you can't, like, make up days. So the whole point of this is that the. The bar is set so low that you shouldn't have to, like, make updates. So I. My intention this week is to just keep going. Yeah, just keep going swimming. Just keep swimming. As. As my namesake just keeps.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes. As Dory says, my intention was to finish Act 2. I can proudly report that I'm only like, one scene away, so.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God. Amazing.

[Elise Hu]

But yeah, Yeah, I was just like, I'm doing it. I'm just doing it. It's not good. Just to be clear. It is not good. There's, like, not emotional weight and there's no, like, smart, Smart turns of phrase or, like, ideas in there yet. But I just filled it out. Basically. I. I've made it to the end, and I think you can't start getting it better without actually having some clay there first.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

So that's in. And then this week, I need to calm down. I've been super irritable ever since our government has started getting hollowed out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm watching just, like, catastrophe every day. Every day seems to be worse than the previous one.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so I need to calm down. And maybe one action I can take to calm down is to go on a long walk with Oscar each day. So I'm going to intend right here on this, your show, that I'm going to walk my golden daily, because I don't currently. And he needs it. And I think I need it more. I think I need it more.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, you heard it here first.

[Elise Hu]

Everybody we're gonna start walking.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is also the time of the month where we thank our Patreon supporters who are at the $10 level and or above and we are so grateful for you all. If you want to also support us on Patreon and get all of the aforementioned benefits that we talked about at the top of the show, you can do [e-mail] forever35 so thank you to the following supporters.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you to Caitlin H. Katie, Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara Chiokolis, Amy Sarah Fitz, Amy Schnitzer, Heather Hale, Megan Donald Prue Jr. Helen De Moy, Shelly Lee, Kim Begler, Sarah Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Susan Berseth, Melissa McLean, Lenny Jones, Fran Kelsey Wolf Denay Laura Eddy Jadelle Apdi, Valerie Bruneau, Julie Daniel, Katie Quattrone E. Jackson, Alicia Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, JD K, Jennifer Smith, Hannah M, Julie Putt, Maddie O'Day, Marissa Lauren Gitlin, Sarah Bell, Maria Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie H. Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Angie James, Tiffany G, Diane m. Martin, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Elizabeth Anderson, Kelly Dearborn, Christine Bassis, Allison Markline, Jessica Gale, Zelima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds and T. Nikki Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H, Sarah Egan, Jess Jennifer Olson, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brian Macy, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M, Lisa Travis, Kate M, Emily Bruyer, Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary and Monica. Thank y'all so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thanks again to all of you and Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sami Reed is our Project Manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Until next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

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