Episode 339: Wholehearted Friendship with Anna Goldfarb

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 339: Wholehearted Friendship with Anna Goldfarb
Release Date: February 10, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu

---

Introduction to Friendship Month

In Episode 339, titled "Wholehearted Friendship with Anna Goldfarb," hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu dive deep into the complexities of maintaining and nurturing friendships in modern times. Kicking off their four-week Friendship Month series, the episode sets the stage for an exploration of how friendships evolve, the challenges faced in sustaining them, and actionable strategies to cultivate meaningful connections.

---

Understanding the Friendship Dip

Elise Hu introduces the concept of the "friendship dip," citing Anne Helen Peterson's research. She explains that as individuals enter their 30s and 40s, career pressures and family commitments often lead to a decline in non-romantic, platonic relationships. This dip highlights the struggle to balance various aspects of life while maintaining meaningful friendships.

"Friendships are such an important ingredient for making our lives feel whole."
— Elise Hu [04:46]

Doree Shafrir shares her personal experience, noting that her friendship dip was delayed due to her living situation in New York and the presence of friends without children. However, motherhood eventually shifted her priorities, making it challenging to maintain the same level of social interaction.

"When I had a kid... I was not ready for that."
— Doree Shafrir [06:04]

---

Guest Profile: Anna Goldfarb

The episode features Anna Goldfarb, a renowned journalist, author, and friendship expert. Anna's book, "Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections," serves as a cornerstone for the discussion. Her expertise lies in understanding the fundamental mechanics of friendship through empathy and extensive research.

---

Modern vs. Traditional Friendships

Anna Goldfarb highlights the stark differences between modern friendships and those of previous generations. She emphasizes the increased fluidity and number of connections today, attributing feelings of loneliness to the lack of cohesive social groups reminiscent of smaller, community-focused eras.

"There's so much flexibility on who we can befriend, but it's also never been easier to shed friendships."
— Anna Goldfarb [10:25]

She clarifies that modern friendships aren't necessarily less intimate but come with higher expectations, requiring a deeper understanding of each other's lives and roles.

"We expect so much more from our friends... our problems are a lot more complex than when we were younger."
— Anna Goldfarb [12:23]

---

The Pool Metaphor: Tiers of Friendship

Anna introduces her "pool metaphor," categorizing friendships into distinct tiers to illustrate their fluid nature:

1. Bathtub Friends: The most intimate connections, typically limited to one or two individuals. For men, this is often a significant other, while women might include a best friend alongside their partner.

2. Jacuzzi Friends: A slightly broader circle of three to five close friends who serve as a support group. These are the friends you count on for significant emotional and practical support.

3. Swimming Pool Friends: Casual friendships with 10 to 15 people, suitable for social activities like double dates or light-hearted interactions.

4. Outer Rings: Expanding into larger social circles such as 50 people for events and up to 150 for major life events like weddings or funerals.

"Friendships are fluid and people dip in and out."
— Anna Goldfarb [27:03]

This metaphor helps listeners understand the varying depths and commitments within their social circles, facilitating better management of expectations and efforts.

---

Wholehearted Friendship: Desire, Diligence, Delight

Anna presents her core framework for cultivating "Wholehearted Friendship," which comprises three pillars:

1. Desire: The yearning to spend time with specific individuals, driven by clear and compelling "abouts" or reasons for the friendship. Without desire, friendships stagnate.

   "Desire is gas in the car if your friendship is a car."
   — Anna Goldfarb [38:02]

2. Diligence: The consistent effort to maintain the friendship. This involves proactive communication, extending specific invitations, and ensuring that interactions are meaningful and aligned with both friends' interests.

   "It's not enough to just say, 'Do you want to hang out.' You need more information."
   — Anna Goldfarb [40:32]

3. Delight: Ensuring that the friendship brings joy and mutual satisfaction. This includes being mindful of not overstepping into roles that can disrupt the peer equality intrinsic to friendships, such as unsolicited advice.

   "Delight is about making sure that our words, actions, and thoughts align with the goal of wholehearted friendship."
   — Anna Goldfarb [42:59]

---

Making New Friends in a Fluid Society

Navigating friendships in an era of hyper-mobility and diverse social opportunities requires intentionality. Anna advises focusing on mutual interests and genuine care rather than viewing friendships transactionally.

"Friendship requires us to be Ron Weasley, our goalposts are in the wrong place."
— Anna Goldfarb [43:17]

She emphasizes the importance of social identity support, which involves recognizing and supporting friends in their various life roles and identities. This deeper level of engagement fosters enduring and meaningful connections.

"Social identity support is about seeing your friend for all the roles they play in their life."
— Anna Goldfarb [46:10]

---

Ending Friendships with Honor

Anna discusses the delicate process of stepping back from friendships that no longer align. She recommends a gradual approach, such as declining invitations and reducing contact, unless there's a significant breach that necessitates direct confrontation.

"Friendships are fragile and it's normal for people to dip in and out."
— Anna Goldfarb [32:42]

By providing a structured framework, Anna hopes to demystify the process, making it less daunting and more respectful.

---

Personal Transformation Through Friendship Research

Anna shares how researching and writing her book profoundly impacted her personal relationships. By applying principles like positivity, consistency, and vulnerability, she successfully mended estranged family ties and strengthened existing friendships.

"These things are very simple, but they point you in a direction."
— Anna Goldfarb [48:18]

Her journey underscores the practical applicability of her research, offering listeners hope and actionable steps to enhance their own friendships.

---

Practical Takeaways and Advice

Anna Goldfarb offers actionable advice for listeners looking to foster wholehearted friendships:

• Be Intentional: Reach out with clear reasons for connecting, which increases the likelihood of reciprocation.

  "I find someone who seems really cool... I'd love to talk to you."
  — Anna Goldfarb [43:17]

• Support Deeply: Engage in your friends' lives by understanding and supporting their personal and professional roles.

  "I want to see what foods you grew up eating... I want to know you in a deeper way."
  — Anna Goldfarb [46:10]

• Create Memories: Prioritize in-person interactions that build lasting memories, as virtual connections lack the same depth.

  "Happy memories with our friends will power us well into the future."
  — Anna Goldfarb [26:49]

• Embrace Fluidity: Accept that friendships evolve and some may fade naturally, making room for new, more aligned connections.

  "Friendships are fluid and people dip in and out. There's nothing wrong."
  — Anna Goldfarb [35:12]

---

Conclusion: Embracing Future Friendships

The episode wraps up with Anna expressing optimism about the future of friendships, emphasizing that best friendships are yet to come. Her framework aims to empower listeners to actively shape their social lives, fostering connections that are dedicated, committed, and joyous.

"Your best friendships are ahead of you."
— Anna Goldfarb [48:18]

Hosts Doree and Elise encourage listeners to apply these principles, enhancing their ability to form and sustain meaningful friendships in an ever-changing social landscape.

---

Notable Quotes Summary

• "Friendships are such an important ingredient for making our lives feel whole." — Elise Hu [04:46]
• "Desire is gas in the car if your friendship is a car." — Anna Goldfarb [38:02]
• "Friendships are fluid and people dip in and out. There's nothing wrong." — Anna Goldfarb [35:12]
• "Your best friendships are ahead of you." — Anna Goldfarb [48:18]

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 339 of Forever35 offers a comprehensive exploration of modern friendships through the lens of Anna Goldfarb's research and personal insights. By understanding the dynamics of desire, diligence, and delight, listeners are equipped with the tools to foster wholehearted friendships that enrich their lives.

For more insights and to engage with Friendship Month, listeners are encouraged to send their questions to forever35podcastmail.com or text 781-591-0390.

---

Note: Advertisements, intros, and outros have been omitted to focus solely on the episode's content.

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

I always have mouths to feed, as listeners of this podcast know, but I don't always have the time to make the best meals for them. With HelloFresh, I can get a good dinner done the easy way. It's much easier to find time to eat well with 50 wholesome, hassle free meals to choose from each week delivered to your door.

[Dory Shafrir]

I also love just how much of the mental load HelloFresh takes off of me. It's not even so much the cooking, it's the coming up with the ideas of what to make for dinner. Like seriously, it takes that away. They have this one meal that is mozzarella and herb chicken with roasted carrots and this like really nice buttery couscous that is so delicious. It's so flavorful and it's also really filling and also really easy. So it like hits all of my. It hits all of my requirements.

[Elise Hu]

All good points. And for those who really don't have time, HelloFresh's new ready made meals go from the fridge to your fork in just three minutes. It's the same high quality ingredients and restaurant worthy flavor you expect from Hellofresh with none of the work. If you've got more than three minutes, try their lineup of prep and bake meals. They come together with minimal mess and only five minutes of prep. So your oven does most of the work, not you. HelloFresh's 15 minute meals are done in just three simple steps so you can eat better this year without all the hassle. Get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for [e-mail] Forever 3510 FM 1 item per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com forever35 10fm who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean either of us can always afford it. Until we discovered Quince. Quince has become our go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices.

[Dory Shafrir]

Elise, I gotta tell you about a couple of the things that I've gotten recently from Quince. One of them is the transit quilted small crossbody tote. I had been looking for something exactly like this to just like carry around when I need to take Henry to soccer or something and like need I need room for a water bottle, I need room for all the other accoutrements, but I don't want some massive bag. It's perfect has a little handle, but then it also has a crossbody strap. I love a crossbod. It's just. It's the best.

[Elise Hu]

So cute. You showed me the link. And the best part about all Quince items is that they're priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices in premium fabrics and finishes, like with Dory's crossbody.

[Dory Shafrir]

Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com Forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Forever35 hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. And I emphasized friends there.

[Anna Goldfarb]

I don't know if you can tell.

[Dory Shafrir]

Love that.

[Elise Hu]

Love that emphasis on friends. Because this is the beginning of our series on friendship. We are going to spend the next four weeks focused on the topic of friendship. How to make friends, how to keep friends, friendship as a life force, as a really key relationship in our lives. And today we have our first conversation. We're going to have a series of guests all on this topic as we did for Midlife and Menopause month. And we're also inviting you all to send in your questions about friendship so that we can tackle those in our mini app at the end of the series.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, so send those questions over to forever35podcastmail.com you can call or text your questions at 781-591-0390. There's just, there's always, there's always new wrinkles to friendship.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, and there's something called the friendship dip. I think that Anne Helen Peterson has written about. When we hit our 30s. That is the time in our lives where 30s and 40s where we're really having to be ballers when it comes to our careers because it's kind of peak earning years or you are starting families and then you're really kind of heads down with family. And what often gets put on the back burner or deprioritized are your non romantic, non familial relationships, your platonic Friends, it gets put on the back burner. And yet it's such an important ingredient for making our lives feel whole. And so I'm glad that we get to kind of discuss it and dive into how to balance this type of relationship, if not like prioritize it above some other types of relationships or on an equal plane as some other types of relationships.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, I feel like the friendship dip for me got like delayed because in my early and mid-30s I was still living in New York and like most of my friends didn't have kids and we all just like hung out all the time. When I had a kid. It was funny because, like, you had kids in your early 30s.

[Elise Hu]

When I was 30.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, yeah. And I started meeting all these people who had kids in their early 30s and I was like, oh, yeah, that's not where I was. I was not ready for that.

[Elise Hu]

So I don't know, I also wasn't ready for it. And I've been kind of like in a suspended adolescence, as you and listeners know. So, so, so my friendships have remained strong, but I feel like I have to do more work then on my romantic relationships, you know, because I tend to prioritize my friendships so much that like sometimes, sometimes places where I would. Where culturally we might bring ourselves significant others like weddings and things, I like to bring friends. And I think it was challenging for Maddie, my ex husband. And then Rob feels excluded sometimes now too. So, yeah, there's a lot to navigate and I'm really excited to ask our experts about it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, well, should we just like get into it? Because I feel like our first expert had a lot to say. We had a lot to talk to her about.

[Elise Hu]

Well, today we are really delighted to have a conversation with Anna Goldfarb. She's a prolific journalist, author, speaker, and most importantly to us, a friendship expert. And she approaches her favorite subject from a place of empathy and experience. And in her book, Modern Friendship how to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections, she can strike up and carry on a conversation about pretty much anything from literature and dating to classic emo bands, which you will be able to tell from our conversation with her because we could have talked to her for hours. And Anna's deep friendship research and storytelling are core to her step by step guide to understanding the fundamental mechanics of friendship. And we get into that as well. We just had a great, great sort of framing of friendship month with her. Dora, I thought. And I did too. Made me really excited about what's to come.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, same. And we already mentioned how people can get in touch with us. But I also just want to remind everyone that we have our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We're also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. You can also join our Patreon where we have a ton of bonus [e-mail] Forever35. Our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com Newsletter and you can shop our favorite products at shopmy us./forever35. And here is Anna. Anna, welcome to Forever35. We're so excited to have you on the show. As I think you probably know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there something you're doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Listener]

Yeah, this sounds like a way higher version of myself than I normally am, but the best self care tip I've been doing lately is forgiveness is forgiving people for not knowing how to perfectly manage our situations or saying something thoughtless like just trying to have more forgiveness for people and for myself. And I'm telling you in December, that got me through of like, I forgive, you know, this, my relative for not knowing how to perfectly manage this. I forgive my friend for not realizing, you know, that that statement was gonna hurt me. Like I've just been handing out forgiveness like Oprah. It's like, I'm gonna forgive you. I'm gonna forgive you.

[Anna Goldfarb]

You're forgiven.

[Listener]

And let me tell you, my day gets better. Try forgiveness 2025.

[Anna Goldfarb]

That's lovely.

[Listener]

Get hip.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Yeah, that's lovely. Well, Anna, you're a very special guest because you're helping kick off our series on friendship by popular demand. Our listeners wanted to talk about friendship in a more concentrated way. And you have authored a book called Modern how to nurture our Most Valued Connections. So I'm curious, what is different do you think about friendship in our modern times than it was 20 or 30 years ago?

[Listener]

That's such a great question. There's so much that's different. I mean, even from our parents and grandparents, our social lives are just wildly different. The number of connections that we manage is like exponentially higher than your ancestors ever did. You know, when you, you don't even have to go that far back. When you think of your grandparents or great grandparents, they probably lived like in a small community, maybe religious. The roles were very limited of what they could do or not do. You know, if you're a woman, you're not. There's only a few jobs you can have. Usually you get married and have kids, and that's the vibe. Now we have infinite choice. We move around all the time, and our connections are bound to reflect how hyper mobile we are. And what I mean is that, you know, for me, I've lived in three different cities and you know, I have friends from school, friends from later school, friends from my first job, my third job, my 10th job. And they only share common history with me, not with each other. And so what that does is it makes us feel more disconnected, it makes us feel lonelier because we're not part of this cohesive group. You know, my grandma was really active in her synagogue and she lived in the Same House for 53 years. And her social life is so different than mine. Things are different. I mean, your, your mom probably never had a best guy friend. You know, you can't ask her, how did you manage your friendship when you started getting other relationships? You know, we have so much flexibility on who we can befriend, but it's also never been easier to shed friendships. You can, you know, create a whole, you can have a whole new identity, drop one set of friends and be perfectly fine with a new set of friends. So it's like pros and cons. I don't think it's wor. It's just different.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Does it mean our friendships are less close or intimate than they were before?

[Listener]

No, not at all. I think that, oh my gosh, they're so much more intimate. But that also means the stakes are so much higher if you don't know how to meet the moment. You know, friendships. You know, in the 1950s, friendship for women was really a reprieve from the drudgery of marital life. It was just like light, someone to laugh with, someone to play a card game with. Now we expect our friends to be therapists, mothers, sisters, best friends. Like, we expect so much more from our friends. And you know, I just, that's why I wanted to write this book, because I felt that the stakes were a lot higher and our problems are a lot more complex than when we were younger. And I was having a lot of trouble knowing, am I a good friend, Are my friends good friends, Am I picking good people to be friends? I mean, there's just so much more about modern life that's so much more complex than what our grandparents friendships were like. There was a lot, probably a lot more simple. Like you weren't juggling all these things. It was really like, oh, I have children, I go to this church. You have children, go to this church, let's be friends.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrir]

If you're a business owner or aspiring shopkeeper, having your own online shop has never been easier than with Shopify. Even to sell international Shopify lets you reach buyers worldwide with native multi language and multi currency features, even local payment gateways for a checkout experience that converts. Shopify is the best all in one commerce platform capable of handling your business's complexity no matter how big you grow. When we had Forever 35 merch, we always used Shopify because it was the easiest place to just get everything started. We were up and running in a matter of hours. It was even easy to keep it looking like a Forever 35 store because Shopify lets you keep control of your brand and your business is always in your hands. From your storefront look to your back office operations. Don't leave sales on the table. Switch your business to Shopify and discover why millions trust Shopify as their all in one commerce platform to build, grow and run their business. Sign up today for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com forever35 all lowercase. That's one month for just $1 at shopify.com forever35 shopify.com forever35 I have some stats that I want to share with you because multiple studies have shown that women are better investors than men. And this is because men tend to be overconfident and women do their research.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, we do.

[Dory Shafrir]

Interesting, right? But here is a fact that may not surprise you. 66% of men are investing in the stock market compared to just 48% of women. Investing gap means fewer women have the chance to build wealth now and can have huge repercussions down the road when it comes time for them to retire. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. The good news is that Acorns makes it easy for everyone to start investing. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. And you don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns.

[Listener]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Head to acorns.comforever35 or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View Important [e-mail] Forever35 Since 2017, Prose.

[Elise Hu]

Has transformed traditional hair and skin care with a made to order model that reduces waste, celebrates unique beauty over one size, fits all beauty standards, and works better than off the shelf alternatives. Developed in Paris and bottled fresh in Brooklyn and L A. Prose combines the know how of its world class team of in house cosmetic chemists with an algorithm that personalizes your formulas based on more than 85 unique factors. You are always changing and so is your pros. Your formulas evolve alongside you and pros will address any new concerns. Adjust your formulas with the seasons and learn from your feedback for better hair with every order. I know that Dory and I have both found that to be the case.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. So I've actually used this to great results. I used to have a leave in conditioner from Prose which I liked. Yeah but like I think my hair is feeling a little dry and I went into their review and refine feedback tool. I told them this and they sent me a conditioner to use in the shower like a regular conditioner and it has made a world of difference. I also have adjusted the fragrance. You know I do like a touch of fragrance sometimes in my shampoo. Yeah, you know I'm very picky about fragrance so I'm always tweaking. But I love the Prose fragrances. They're. They're like the perfect hint of fragrance.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes. Subtle. So whether you're looking for stronger strands or brighter skin, discover the difference of custom hair and skin care that's made just for you.

[Dory Shafrir]

Prose is so confident that you'll bring out your best hair and Skin in 2025 that they're offering an exclusive trial offer of 50 off your first hair care subscription [e-mail] forever35 so take your free consultation, get your one of a kind formulas and see the difference custom care can make with 50% off at p r o s e.com forever35.

[Advertiser]

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep number Smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft. Sleep number does that you want to sleep cooler while they want to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side and now save 50% off on the new sleep number limited edition smart bed, limited time, exclusively at a sleep number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's so interesting, too, because I feel like in the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years, there's been this real trend of people referring to their romantic partners as their best friends. And so there's been this, like, weird conflation of romantic partner and friend and kind of to your point about how your friend doesn't need to be everything in your life and in fact, probably shouldn't be. Like, I would argue your romantic partner also doesn't need to be your best friend. Like, in fact, maybe shouldn't be.

[Listener]

You know, I'm so glad you brought this up, Dori, because there is a real schism for male and female expectations of their friendships in midlife. You know, women want more interdependence. They want to be involved in their friendships. They want to nurture their friends. Men seem to want more independence, generally speaking. Like, there's no monolith here. You know, there's always shades of variation. But men want more independence from their friends. They don't want to be criticized or judged. And so that really impacts how we practice our friendships in midlife and beyond. Men, I do tend to put a lot more pressure on their partners to be their everything. Because men aren't great at being vulnerable. They're competitive assholes. And that's other guys saying that. That's just me quoting other guys talking about this. It's not even, you know, my judgment. I love men. I love men, but they're jerks to each other. They're very compet. If you complain. If a guy complains to his guy friend, I'm struggling at work, he'll be worried that his friend will look at him in a diminished light of like, oh, you're not, you're not. You're not. You're not killing it. So, you know, men don't want to be judged or criticized. So then they go to their partner who's loving and can listen. And, you know, women are more conditioned to do those kinds of skills for one another. It's not that men aren't capable. They're just not as conditioned to do that.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Yeah. And surely it's connected to this crisis and loneliness that there's been a lot of talk about, but more focused conversation about men and loneliness in.

[Listener]

I'm sure women are looking around like, I spend so much mental energy about my friendships and keeping them humming, keeping them Going strong. And then you look at your partner and you're like, what's up with you?

[Anna Goldfarb]

One thing that I actually really love about my partner Rob, is that he has such close male friends from, like, way back in high school, and they still, like, call each other on the phone. This is probably also because he's a Gen Xer, and he still calls people on phones, and they, like, talk on the phone in the morning when they go on walks or runs and stuff. And this we're talking about friends that he went to high school with. Like, they got to know each other in eighth or ninth grade.

[Listener]

And I think it's very cool.

[Anna Goldfarb]

But the real trouble, I think, is getting together in real life. Like, everybody has these very busy lives or big jobs or whatever it is. And so when I have gatherings, my friends will show up for parties and things. But Rob, when he invites his friends to the same parties, like, he doesn't have the same return rate, if you will. Like, his really close friends, he sees in person way less. And so I think that this is about intention, which you write about, and kind of having some friendship intentions in terms of, like, what this friendship is about. So will you talk to us a little bit about that and how important it is to get together in real life?

[Listener]

Oh, my gosh. Getting together real life is the good stuff. That is the gushy good stuff. Well, let's back up. There's two categories of friendships. There's active friendships and memorial friendships. Those memorial friendships are more periodic. You know, there's great affection, but just like Rob's friends, they don't spend a lot of time together. So the difference with active friendships is that there's a reason to get together. You know, one misunderstanding of friendship is that I think people think affection is enough to keep a friendship active, going indefinitely, forever, into the future. But that's not really how humans work. People just, you know, people need reasons to get out of the house and interact with their friends. And the way I quantified this is about desire. I was really interested in learning where does desire for a particular friendship come from? Why do I seek out one friend over another? Why am I more bummed if I haven't seen one friend in a while? What's the magic? What's the magic at work here with friendships? And I learned that every friendship needs an about, and the about needs to be clear and compelling for both people. That's what keeps a friendship active. So what are some great abouts of a friendship? There was a study done in 2020 of the five reasons people tend to make friends. The first is career people who can help them with their career prospects. Second is mating. In our 20s, so much of friendship was going out, going to parties, trying to meet other people. Third one is emotional support. A lot of our friendships are, let's get together, let's share what's going on. Fourth is hobbies and passions. You want people to do the stuff that you think is cool. And the fifth is just being social, just joining a book club just to be around other people. So what's fascinating about this is those are great abouts. In your 20s, you can see why you had the friends you had. What did they help you with? What, what of your interests? Where is the overlap? But then you can see our friendships fall off a cliff after 30. And that's because if you think about it, if you're in a different field than your friend, maybe career isn't as much of a draw. If you're both married, you're not looking for meeting from your friends. So that's. Window closes, so what do you have left? You have emotional support, hobbies and passions, and just being social. So if your friend has a baby and can't give emotional support, that can't be the priority. Then your friendship is gonna. You can see the windows closing. A bit of like, well, what are we connecting about? You can say, I wanna spend more time with you. What's important to you? How can I help? And just start going through that rubric of, you know, my best, one of my best friends. We overlap on career, we overlap on emotional support, we overlap on hobbies and passions. I can see why she's my best friend because we tick so many of those boxes and that's why we make time for one another. And the beauty of an active friendship is you create memories together. Now with your husband, Rob, when you just talk to someone on the phone, you're not creating new memories. You're not like, remember that time we just chatted on the phone? I don't remember any phone call I've ever. I've never. I don't remember any text message I've ever sent. I don't remember any video call I've ever had. That's why it doesn't feel as nourishing. Like during the pandemic, we had all these video calls, but they're not memories. It's like this weird black hole of, well, I was in touch with people, but you can't look back and be like, remember that time we, you know.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, we had that Great zoom.

[Listener]

We had that great zoom. We all had like a glass of wine or a ginger ale. I mean, it's like a non memory. It's a non memory. But we want happy memories with our friends because that will power us well into the future.

[Dory Shafrir]

Can we just talk about one of my favorite metaphors in your book, which is the pool metaphor?

[Listener]

Some of your friends are pool water features.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. You have your bathtub friends, your Jacuzzi friends. Could you go through that and explain why those degrees of friendship are important?

[Listener]

Yeah. I really wanted to highlight how fluid our friendships are. So I took the work from Robin Dunbar, like a wonderful British anthropologist. He's written a ton on social networks and he found these numbers of this is how people tend to organize their social lives. And I rebranded it. I actually sent it to him. I'm like, hey, heads up, is this cool? I don't want to annoy you that I'm taking your work and recontextualizing it. And he did say it was cool. So I feel like I covered my butt with that. But the first tier, the most intimate tier we have, I call the bathtub. And I call it that because there's not much room in there. For men, it's usually one other person in their bathtub. It's usually their significant other. But for women, they have two people in their bathtub, usually their significant other and a best friend. So right there you see that men and women, you know, really prioritize their friendships differently. So that's the bathtub. The next outer layer, I call the Jacuzzi. And those are the. Those are the three to five, you know, ride or die. It's called the support group. These are your, you know, if you had an Academy Award, you'd thank these people. These are people who play really important roles in your life. My book will help you work through, like who's in my Jacuzzi? I'll ask you a ton of not tricky questions, just like, who could you go to for financial advice? Whose house could you stay over in a pinch, who's most likely to give you a hug if you've had a hard day? Those kinds of things will help determine who's in your Jacuzzi tier. And the outer one after that, I call the swimming pool. That's the sympathy tier. That's the 10 to 15 people. You know, you double date with your co workers. You know, people in your life that just, you know, they're active friendships, but they're also kind of casual, you know, maybe house sit for them. Or pet sit, and then it goes on from there. I kind of stretch the metaphor just between us. Like, I had the beach bonfires, the 50 people you'd invite to a birthday party. And the Water park is 150 people for a wedding or a funeral. Those are those outer. The outer tier, the outer rings of your social orbit. And this I really want to highlight how fluid our friendships are. You know, falling in love will cost you two friendships, Dunbar found. And, yeah, like, as your priorities change and your availability plummets, you're going to move some people from the Jacuzzi to the swimming pool and it's. Have you fallen to those pool parties where you're like, hanging in a Jacuzzi? They want to get a snack. You're like, I'm gonna dip into the pool. So I want people to wrap their heads around friendships in this way of, like, there's nothing wrong. It's just that people dip in and out. They're very fragile. So I'm hoping that with this framework of. This is fluid, these are fluid relationships. You know, I encourage people to come back to the book in six months or a year, and you can chart how it's changed. The people in your Jacuz will have changed, and that's normal.

[Anna Goldfarb]

On this matter of ending friendships, when we do want to step back from a friendship because values don't align anymore, we don't share the same kinds of interests as we did previously or really for any reason. What would be an honorable way to end friendships or to leave one?

[Listener]

Well, you know, this is funny. Almost every interview, someone asked me this, and I wrote a book about keeping friendships. So how do we get rid of that? How do we delete the dvr? Like, we recorded all these episodes we don't want anymore. Is there a button we can just push? You know, part of so much of our conditioning as women is to keep friendships, you know, not rock the boat. So it feels so like, body cringing to think about ending a friendship because it goes against so much of our conditioning of just go along to get along. A lot of it is what I'm hoping my book will do, is help people understand what it give language to. Like, well, why aren't I interest as interested in this friendship? Is this something I can negotiate? Or is this. Are there behaviors that, like you said, are a mismatch and I've just outgrown it? We outgrow our friendship. I never try to close a door unless, like, there's been a catastrophic betrayal. Usually it's kind of pull away. I decline invitations. I mean, unless something horrible went wrong that you have to address. And Danielle Byer Jackson wrote a great book, Fighting for our Friendships, all about how to handle conflict in our friendships. So that could be a great resource if you want a little bit more instruction of, like, what is the nature of the problem? Like, what's going on here? But normally it's like people ghost each other all the time. It depends on what the reason is.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Dory Shafrir]

I feel like this, this goes back to the jacuzzi and the pool because I, if I'm remembering correctly, in your book, you talk about how it's important to kind of be aware of where your friends are in that rubric. And also that helps you kind of set expectations because I think you give the example of someone who, like, you thought was in the Jacuzzi, but actually turned out to be, like, in the pool or something. And like, that's, that's been something that I've had to sort of like, confront over the past few years. Like, oh, I thought this person was like, in my hot tub, but they're actually not. And like, how do I feel about that? Like, is it okay? Like, do I feel okay that they're in my Olympic size swimming pool? Or am I just, like, so sad that they're like, not in my jacuzzi anymore? That, like, I can't deal with it? You know what I mean? So I think, like, kind of like recalibrating those expectations is kind of important and hard, right?

[Listener]

Yeah. And there's some grieving you have to grieve of. This friendship isn't what I thought it was. Totally my hope is that by giving language to this process, it'll make it easier to understand what's going on. It's not this question mark of when I first started reporting on friendships almost 10 years ago, my friendships felt like wild stallions that were just dragging me, me around in the dirt. I'm just like, which way are we going? Are we still best friends? Are we still close? I still call this woman my best friend. I haven't seen her in four years. Like, is that, like, cool? Am I delusional? So I really wanted to bring language here. You know, friend is such an ambiguous word.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Yeah.

[Listener]

We have so many friends, it's almost meaningless. Of, well, what kind of friend are we? Are you my best friend? You were before. Are we still today? And it really is the lack of specific language that I think creates a lot of confusion in our brains. Of, well, what is this relationship it's special to me, it's important to me.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right?

[Listener]

But I hope that by saying, oh, this is a memorial friendship, we don't have a reason to be active. Nothing's wrong. If I want to be more active, I can say, well, what's important to you? How can I help? And then you have a reason to be in touch. It's very different. We have very different challenges.

[Anna Goldfarb]

So give us some advice. How do we be good, active friends?

[Listener]

Oh my gosh. Well, this is the part I needed the most instruction with personally of. Okay, so we have these friends. We've collected all these friends in our phone. So how do I actually meet their expectations and be a good friend? And you know, so much of modern friendship is like a supermarket in that when you go shopping and you're hungry, like everything, your cravings will guide you of, well, I want this mozzarella stick. I want this from the. I want this at the pizza station. You just like put whatever in your cart that you're craving and then you check out, you're like, how am I going to make a nutritious meal out of these random things I just put in my cart because I'm starving. And our friendships are the same way. When you open up Instagram and you see, oh, that's my old roommate. Oh, I miss her. And you write out like, oh, we should hang out. I miss you. And you don't hear back. Then you see like an old co worker, oh, I miss her. And you just feel rotten. You're like, how is this a social life? How is this anything? I'm sending out invitations. No one's really getting back to me. This is really hard. Now consider when you are full and you go shopping and you have a list, it's so much easier to cut through the noise and realize, I don't need to spend my energy on a relationship that's expired or we don't have a reason to be in touch. Like, it's a better use of my energy to focus on a few people where we have a strong reason to stay in touch. We know why we're in this friendship and you can just like move forward without all the fraught, you know, the fraud like cravings that come up. That's our challenge as people living in a hyper fluid society is we have to know the game. This is how people work now. This is how people pick their friends. Now. It's not like we're in some shtetl where there's five girls in the village and you don't need to have. Oh, I have kids. You have kids. Like, okay, let's just. Let's do this. We have so many things competing for our attention, our time. So it's just a very different game to sort through it all.

[Dory Shafrir]

So we're just going to take a short break, and we will be right back. Can you talk about wholehearted friendship, this term that you have coined and what it means and how to kind of pursue it?

[Listener]

Yeah. I really wanted a word to describe the kind of friendships I want, and I didn't see any words that really described it. Wholehearted means dedicated, committed, and enthusiastic. And I'm like, that's it. That's what I want. That's the kind of friendships I want. So wholehearted friendship is a paradigm I designed that's based around time. Jeffrey A. Hall is a fabulous professor at Kansas University. He did a study that found it takes on average 200 hours of shared activities to go from stranger to close friend. So I'm like, oh, my God, that's a lot of time if you're looking for a new best friend. If you just move somewhere, you're like, well, how do I get these best friends I keep hearing about? Or whatever. So then I thought, well, why does anyone do anything? It's like our friendships is other silo, or are they part of just the grind of why we do anything? Wholehearted friendship consists of three things. Desire, who you yearn to spend time with, diligence, who you prioritize spending your time with, and delight, who you actually enjoy spending time with. These are the three prongs of friendship is who do I want to spend time with? That's desire. And what we learned that we covered is that desire that friendships need an about, and abouts need to be clear and compelling. And abouts can change, be outdated, or be absent. So that's desire. Desire is gas in the car if your friendship is a car desire. If you don't have desire, your car's not going anywhere. You're not getting that Greek salad at Whole Foods. You're staying put. You need desire. You need a reason. Diligence to extend the car metaphor is about making sure you're street legal. It's like, do I have insurance? Do I have registration? Did I do those adult things to make sure I don't get a ticket? And what that looks like in a friendship is, am I extending invites that someone can reply yes to? Am I being specific of here's why I want to hang out with you? You know, a few, like, 10 years ago, I Was living at home with my parents, writing, like, freelance writing, kind of on the struggle bus. And a good friend invited me to her house for a party. I was so excited. I was like, oh, my God, this is great. I get there. It was selling jewelry. It was like an MLM thing.

[Anna Goldfarb]

Oh, no.

[Listener]

And I was so embarrassed, and it just made me. You don't need very many things like that to make you jaded. So when a friend says, like, hey, come over, you're like, well, what do you want? Are you trying sell me a legging? Are you trying to sell me, like, a timeshare? You know, we need more information to say yes to things. That's what I've learned is it's not enough to say, hey, do you want. You know, to a new friend, do you want to come over? Do you want to get lunch? Do you want to get a drink? It's like, well, why? Why me? Why do you want me? Why should I say yes? Why should I tell my spouse that they're on the road for dinner tonight because I'm going out with you? Like, what do you. What do you want? We need a little more information. That's diligence. Delight is all about making sure that the friendship is a good fit for you. My best friend may not be a great match for you, Elise. I could put you in a room with her, and you could be like, not for me, but she's great for me. Delight is all about how can we make our friendships feel just snuggly and safe and validating all those emotional support skills that we're not taught but our friends expect us to have. And that can look like being really mindful of not giving. I don't want to do two negatives of not giving unsolicited advice, of only giving advice when asked. And this is a huge pain point in friendships because friendships are a relationship of peers. You know, we're equal. And when you start giving a friend advice, then the dynamic shifts of, well, I know what's best for you. I know what you should do. And friends hate that. They don't want to feel like that in a friendship. That's what makes friendship so delicious, is that we're equal. We're looking at the world together. We're marveling at the world together. And when friends start, you know, shifting the dynamic, it can feel really uncomfy. To use that word from love is blind that everyone forgot uncomfy. So delight is like, okay, guys, this turns friends off. Let's try to, like, like, learn these Skills so that your friends will enjoy being with you. They will feel, you know, just like that word, wholehearted, like dedicated, committed, and enthusiastic. I want my friends to love being my friend. How can I make sure that my words, actions, and thoughts align with that, with that goal?

[Anna Goldfarb]

Okay, we get a lot of questions from our audience about making new friends. Like if we've moved to a new city and especially since we're past 30 or a lot of us are past 30 and our lives are hyper fluid like you talked about. So what is your advice there?

[Listener]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I think the first thing people do wrong with making friends is think, like, what's in it for me? I want friends to care about me. I want friends to throw me a party. I want friends to do things for me. And this is kind of a problem with pop culture. So much of pop culture is this main character syndrome of, you know, I'm Harry Potter, I got my sidekicks, like, look at us roll deep. But friendship requires us to be the Ron Weasley. Our goal posts are in the wrong place. The deal with friendship is it's an honor to share and witness your friends, challenges, triumphs, and to be a part of it. But I think people make the mistake of, I want friends for me. I want friends to check up on me and, like, care about me. But studies show that people think they'll be happier with a lot of friends, but it actually feels better to be considered someone's best friend. And that's because it's, you know, they're choosing you. They're pointing to you and saying, you know, she has wonderful integrity and inner beauty and good character. That's what makes us feel good. So when I think about making new friends, this is how I do it in my life, is I find someone who seems really cool. We have a really compelling reason to be in touch. Like, maybe they study friendship, too, or they work in media and live in Philly too. And I reach out, hey, I think you're cool. We both work in media and we both live in Philly. I'd love to talk to you. And I explain why I'm reaching out. And my hope is that it's compelling enough for the other person to say yes. And then once we get together, I say, what can I help you? Like, what are your dreams? What are your goals? How can I help you? People tend to keep those around that care deeply about what they care about. What that means is, you know, my best friend, I see what's important to her, and it's Important to me because it's important to her. You know, I have relationships with her kids. I have relationships. I went to the vet with her dog because she loves her dog more than anything. So I went with her to pick up her dog when he had tooth surgery. It's like, that's how you can make new friends, is I care about what you care about. I'm interested. I want to be a part of it. One of the things, the most exciting things I learned was a small study by a woman named Carolyn Weiss. And she looked at groups of friends. It was a small study, like, 67 young women in college. And she wanted to see who would be more likely to be best friends in four years. And she found that friendships that practiced social identity support were much more likely to endure. So I'm like, what is this thing? This sounds like a magic bullet. Why is. Why aren't we, like, you know, putting this in a skywriter across the sky? Like, hey, guys, this is all you have to do. This, like, random term that brings nothing to mind when you say these three words together. Social identity support. So I called her, and I'm like, tell me, what is this? And she said, it's seeing your friend for all of the roles they play in their life, their race, class, gender, and it's supporting them in those roles. And here's what I mean. Like, we all have that friend. Maybe you're struggling financially, and your friend's like, oh, I really want to get this sushi dinner for Friday night. And you're like, I can't afford that. And then you get, like, resentful of, like, wasn't my friend. Why is she suggesting things I can't afford? And it makes you less likely to want to seek her out as opposed to, hey, I know you're underemployed. Let's just get pizza. Why don't you come over? I'll make you some dinner. And then you feel seen. You feel like, okay, my friend sees some struggles, or what your religion is, and saying, I want to be a part of it. Like, I want to see what foods you grew up eating. I want to be a part of your cultural traditions. You know, so much of modern friendship is about entertainment. Let's go out, let's get drinks, let's go somewhere. And it can feel like a grind of just, what is this list of dinners I've committed to? I'm in my 40s. Like, this is like, isn't there. Is there more? Isn't there more to this? And that's what we can give our friends is I care about you. I care about where you come from. I want to see where you grew up. I want to see what bands you love listening to as a kid. Like, I want to know you in a deeper way. And that's what we can give to our friends.

[Dory Shafrir]

Anna, before we let you go, can you just talk a little bit about how researching and writing this book changed you and the way you thought about your friendships, the way you approach your friendships. Did any of your friendships change while writing the book?

[Listener]

Thank you for asking me this question. That's a great question. It has completely changed my life. Learning the game, like, learning what I can do. I feel so empowered because friendships felt so out of grasp for me. I've moved around so much. I will never run into the people I grew up with. I grew up in Chicago, I live in Philly. They're not even in the same time zone. I'm not just gonna run into old friends. And that's such a deep loss for me. And I just feel so optimistic and empowered that our best friendships are ahead of us. I don't think we get that message very much. I think people think, oh, my best friendships were in the past. This is a sad thing for me to think about. But I'm here to tell you your best friendships are ahead of you. There is no reason why you can't absorb these principles and put them to work immediately. I included a 14 day friendship cleanse in the book and it really just distills all the lessons that I cover in the book. And to me it's like a really elegant way to tell someone, here's how this works. All of the things I suggest are very low lift. Like, I'm not an act. I'm pretty lazy. Like, I'd rather hang out with my cat and play my switch than like do anything. And I'm having the best friendships of my life. So I really want to meet people where they're at. I don't want to suggest things that are out of anyone's comfort zone. I really want this to be about empowerment and optimism of this is achievable for me. I just need to know where to place my efforts and who to place my efforts in. Am I picking good people? Am I picking people who share my values? You know, when I first started reporting on friendships, I was estranged from a family member. We just couldn't even get through a meal without bickering. And I started learning about these friendship principles and specifically Shasta Nelson. She's the OG friendship expert. She's brilliant. And in her work, she learned that friendships require three things. Positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. And I immediately put that to work with my family member. Now we talk every morning. I see her every week. Like, I put all those principles to use, and it's completely transformed my life. So these things are, like, very simple, but they point you in a direction. And so I wanted to build off of Shasta's work of, like, well, why am I picking good friends? Like, who am I picking? So then I went further with it with desire, diligence, and delight, which is building off, you know, her work. So, listen, this is an exciting time to be a friend. Like, this is exciting. We can befriend people from all over the world with different genders, different backgrounds. We have so much freedom. But we have to learn how to. How to. How to exercise that freedom in a way that benefits us.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, that is.

[Listener]

Oh, my God. Was that a lot?

[Dory Shafrir]

No, no, that was just like a lovely note to end on one. Yeah. Anna, where can our listeners find you?

[Listener]

Yeah, you can find me, Anna Goldfarb on Instagram. You can check out my website and learn a little bit more about the book. I have a free book excerpt on the website, so you can see if it's going to be a good fit for you. And also my substack, Friendship Explained, where I explain. I really have a lot of fun on my sub stack. Like, it's OG blogging to me. Like, I'm an old blogger and it's love, you know, connecting with that kind of blogging mentality. Very 2009 Tumblr for me over there. So friendship explained. It's annagoldfarb.substack.com well, thank you so much, Anna.

[Dory Shafrir]

It was really such a pleasure to get to talk to you.

[Listener]

Thank you for having me. I've been jumping up and down all week. I'm so excited to be here.

[Dory Shafrir]

All right, well, what a great way to kick off Friendship Month with Anna.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely.

[Dory Shafrir]

Really enjoyed that conversation. And now we are in our intention zone. Yeah, I always felt like we needed, like, a sound effect there.

[Elise Hu]

Agree.

[Listener]

Agree.

[Elise Hu]

Catch me up. Door. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. So last week I said I was going to keep going with sticker fest, and I got news for you. I kept going. I kept going. I actually just realized I'm behind on actually putting the stickers on the calendar, but I have been doing it every day, so.

[Elise Hu]

Writing good.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. I mean, you know, it's often just like, oh, it's almost time for bed and I Haven't written my sentence. And then I write my sentence. But you know what? That is a sentence more than I would have written.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, you earned that sticker. You earned every sticker.

[Dory Shafrir]

I earned that sticker. And I have a big deadline for something else coming up next week. And then after that I am going to kind of refocus and set aside like, actual time for my writing. And I'm excited about that. So. Yeah. And then this week I have a friend coming into town. Actually, she's here. She's someone I have been friends with for more than 15 years and she lives outside New York and she's just one of my dearest friends. She's actually on Forever 35. Elizabeth Spiritacus Olsen. She's just like the best. And she, I will say, like, she is someone who really makes an effort with her friends. And Elizabeth, if you're listening to this, I just want to say I appreciate you and I appreciate that and I will tell you this in person as well. But I feel like, you know, the greater audience of listeners needs to know. Yeah, and, you know, she will, like, yeah, she will, like, come to LA to see me and her other friends here. And, you know, I feel like a lot of people don't do that. Like, she comes specifically to see Friends, which is like, not just like, oh, I need to be in LA for xyz. Yeah, can you squeeze in coffee at like, you know, 4:30 on Thursday? It's like, it's really nice that she makes that effort. And, and I just, you know, I see you, Elizabeth, and I see the, the effort you put in. And. Yeah, it is so appreciated. And so we have, I think I mentioned this already that we have plans this weekend to go to the Korean spa. And tonight we are gonna. I'm gonna go to where she's staying. We're gonna order in and watch Traders. Just, just friend things, you know.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, it's Traders Night for you.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's Traders Night. It's Traders Night in America.

[Elise Hu]

Or I mean, metaphorically, it's Traders Night every day in America.

[Listener]

But.

[Dory Shafrir]

She'Ll be here all night, folks. Yeah, so there's a new episode of Traders on tonight, so. And, and you know, we are both Traders watchers. She is a, she is a big Survivor fan, so this has been been a fun season for her to be watching Traders. So I'm excited that we're gonna order from one of our favorite restaurants and yeah, I'm just like, excited.

[Elise Hu]

So it's gonna be great. Yes, she's a Survivor fan. Much like young Ava Blythe, my spawn, Ava. I did mention to Ava, hey, you're a big Survivor fan. There's apparently some Survivor winners on this show Traders, where they play werewolf for a tv. And she was like, oh, I could watch that. And. And I was like, and it's on Peacock. And she's like, oh, it's on Peacock.

[Listener]

Oh, my God, we don't have Peacock.

[Elise Hu]

It's so hard to find Peacock, like to. I guess I could just buy it. But you know, it's been. I feel like that streamer is really, really okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

But here's something that I will say about Peacock, because until I had Peacock, I also felt this way about Peacock. And then we got Peacock. And I was like, oh, Peacock's actually kind of secretly great. Like, I watched Conclave last night on Peacock.

[Elise Hu]

They had the rights to Conclave.

[Listener]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. I think it must be like distributed by Universal or something. So don't. And. And they're getting wicked. They're getting wicked on Peacock.

[Listener]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

I'm just saying there's some. There's some good. And they. The whole Bravo universe don't sleep on Peacock. And they have the trainers.

[Elise Hu]

Peacock somehow became the dog of the streamers.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. But you know what? Unfairly, this episode brought to you by Peacock. No, just kidding. What if my whole like, fandom of traitors was just like a long gorilla.

[Listener]

Elaborate, Right?

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Yeah. For Peacock. That even you didn't know about.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Surprise.

[Listener]

Surprise.

[Dory Shafrir]

Anyway, you know, thematically appropriate, my intention this week is to just enjoy friendship.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Yes. I love it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Thank you.

[Listener]

What about you?

[Elise Hu]

Shout out to your friend Elizabeth. I am. This next week is. It's almost my birthday. My birthday's on the 17th and. Yeah. So this next week I have a bunch of deadlines to meet, which means my intention is going to be to write furiously and be a content producing factory. I don't think that that's like a really great self care intention.

[Dory Shafrir]

No. But you know what you gotta do, we gotta do.

[Elise Hu]

Yep. As we say in Texas, we gotta get her done. So I'm gonna have to get her done. I'm gonna focus. So maybe the intention is like focus. Right. And that way I can have something delivered. I can have a few different things shipped before going off for my birthday weekend.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay. This is exciting.

[Elise Hu]

I have never been. I'm very excited. But I'm going to Mexico City. Oh my gosh.

[Dory Shafrir]

How cool.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Apparently it's like one of the best food cities in the world, so I'm excited to eat my face off so long as my gastrointestinal system cooperates. And there's so much like there are a bunch of my. Speaking of friends, a bunch of my friends are coming down with me and I think we could all kind of use it. Yeah. Three of those friends work for the federal government.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh.

[Elise Hu]

And I think are still employed. So as. As of this taping. So I think it's going to be really a good recharge and a reset.

[Listener]

For a lot of of us.

[Dory Shafrir]

Totally. Totally. Oh, that'll be so nice. Okay, well, this has been great. It's been great to talk to you. Yeah.

[Listener]

Great to talk to you.

[Elise Hu]

And happy friendship month to all of you listeners. Don't forget to send in your questions and thoughts.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. And Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Until next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Bye. All right, I'm gonna let you in on a secret, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

I kind of always thought I could be a really great spy.

[Elise Hu]

I could see this.

[Dory Shafrir]

I'm just saying, like, like a, like a Jennifer Garner and alias type spy.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

I mean, look, this is probably all just like total wishful thinking, but I was still so excited to see former CIA officers have a class all about the art of intelligence on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best for just $10 a month billed annually, A membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even in audio mode. Use ancient wisdom to solve modern problems with daily stoic podcaster Ryan Holiday. Develop a daily meditation practice with mindfulness pioneer. The classes really do make a difference. 88% of members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Don't wait another moment to start your learning journey with Masterclass. And right now, Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15 off any annual [e-mail] Forever 35. That's 15 [e-mail] Forever 35 masterclass.com Forever 35.

[Listener]

The new boost Mobile network is offering unlimited talk, text and data for just 25amonth for life.

[Dory Shafrir]

That sounds like a threat.

[Listener]

Then how do you think we should say it? Unlimited talk, text and data for just.

[Dory Shafrir]

25Amonth for the rest of your life?

[Listener]

I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

Go until your ultimate demise.

[Listener]

What if we just save forever?

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay.

[Listener]

$25 a month. Forever. Get unlimited talk, text and Data for just $25 a month.

[Dory Shafrir]

With Boost Mobile Forever.

[Elise Hu]

After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.