Episode 340: How to Invest In Your Friendships with Rhaina Cohen

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 340: How to Invest In Your Friendships with Rhaina Cohen

Release Date: February 17, 2025

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Rhaina Cohen
Episode Title: How to Invest In Your Friendships

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Introduction

In Episode 340 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into the intricate dynamics of modern friendships with guest Rhaina Cohen. This episode is part of their special Friendship Month series, focusing on redefining and deepening the bonds that sustain us as we navigate adulthood. Together, they explore the concept of platonic partnerships, the historical evolution of friendships, the impact of social media, and practical steps to invest meaningfully in existing and new friendships.

Guest Introduction

Rhaina Cohen, a producer and editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded, joins Doree and Elise to discuss her debut book, The Other Significant Others. Supported by the National Endowment of the Humanities Public Scholars Program, Cohen's work examines friendships that mirror life partnerships, challenging traditional notions of romance and family. With a rich background in social sciences and journalism, including her time as a Marshall Scholar at Oxford, Cohen brings a thoughtful and scholarly perspective to the conversation.

Defining Platonic Partnerships

At the heart of the discussion is Cohen's central argument: friendship holds untapped potential and is often undervalued compared to romantic relationships. Through her book, she introduces the term "platonic partnerships" to describe friendships that offer the same depth, commitment, and intimacy typically associated with romantic bonds.

"I'm arguing that friendship has untapped potential and that we undermine friendship by expecting too little of it. At the same time, we undermine romantic relationships by expecting too much."
— Doree Shafrir [18:35]

Cohen shares personal experiences that highlight the depth of her friendships, illustrating how these relationships provide support, connection, and fulfillment beyond societal expectations.

Historical Context of Friendships

Cohen provides a compelling historical perspective, noting that the contemporary devaluation of friendship is a historical anomaly. Traditionally, same-sex friendships often served as primary intimate relationships, especially in contexts where marital bonds were more transactional.

"The way that we treat friendship now, I think, is actually a total historical anomaly. Historically, marriages were often arranged for economic reasons, and intimate same-sex friendships played a crucial role in providing emotional support."
— Doree Shafrir [23:16]

She references practices like "sworn brotherhood" in religious contexts, emphasizing that public acknowledgment and societal support for deep friendships were more common in the past.

Societal Norms and Counterarguments

Cohen addresses the pushback against elevating friendships to the level of romantic relationships, especially amidst resurgent advocacy for the nuclear family. Some critics perceive this shift as anti-marriage, a narrative Cohen actively counters.

"I've been accused of being anti-marriage, which I was expecting, but I'm not an anti-marriage person. I'm critiquing how we venerate marriage and romantic relationships, which often overshadow the potential of friendships."
— Doree Shafrir [25:53]

She emphasizes a pluralistic approach, advocating for recognizing diverse relationship structures without devaluing traditional ones.

Personal Experiences and Living Arrangements

Cohen and Shafrir share their unconventional living arrangements as examples of platonic partnerships. By cohabiting with close friends and even considering shared property ownership, they demonstrate the practical application of investing deeply in friendships.

"My husband and I moved in with two of our good friends and their child, which deepened our relationships in ways that traditional living arrangements might not."
— Doree Shafrir [28:26]

These arrangements challenge the notion that the nuclear family is the only viable or stable living unit, showcasing how friendships can provide extended support systems.

Social Media's Impact on Friendship

The conversation shifts to the role of social media, particularly platforms like TikTok, in shaping modern friendships. While Cohen acknowledges that social media can foster connections, she also highlights its potential downsides, such as promoting boundaries in ways that may inadvertently weaken bonds.

"There are viral videos on TikTok about platonic life partners, which support the idea that friendships can be deeply fulfilling. However, the emphasis on setting boundaries can sometimes lead to friends becoming avoidant and resistant to conflict."
— Doree Shafrir [38:52]

Cohen reflects on how algorithms often present a dichotomy between promoting strong friendships and encouraging self-isolation for mental well-being, noting the complexity of these influences.

Cultivating Closer Friendships

To foster deeper friendships, Cohen suggests intentionality through time, togetherness, and touch—the key ingredients of attachment.

1. Time: Spending significant time together in meaningful activities beyond superficial interactions.

   "Find ways to spend a lot of time with another person. Our closest friendships often came from environments like school or camp, where interactions were intense and frequent."
   — Doree Shafrir [32:14]

2. Togetherness: Engaging in shared experiences that build a sense of camaraderie and mutual support.

   "Having more in-person interactions, like running errands together or collaborating on projects, can create lasting bonds."
   — Cohen [32:14]

3. Touch: Incorporating physical connection, whether through gestures or shared activities that promote closeness.

   "Being willing to initiate physical connection, like giving someone a ride or engaging in communal activities, can significantly strengthen friendships."
   — Cohen [35:36]

The hosts and Cohen emphasize the importance of overcoming the fear of rejection and taking proactive steps to deepen friendships, even if it means stepping outside comfort zones.

Investing in Existing Friendships

When asked how to invest more actively in existing friendships, Cohen advocates for meta-conversations—discussions about the friendship itself.

"How often do you talk to your friends about your friendship and how it's doing? Bringing meta conversation into friendship is one thing that I would recommend."
— Doree Shafrir [49:01]

By reflecting on and discussing the state and needs of the friendship, individuals can identify ways to enhance and sustain their bonds.

Conclusion

Episode 340 of Forever35 offers a profound exploration of the vital role friendships play in our lives. Through Rhaina Cohen's insights and personal anecdotes, listeners are encouraged to reimagine the potential of their friendships, invest intentionally in these relationships, and challenge societal norms that may undervalue the depth of platonic bonds. By embracing time, togetherness, and touch, and engaging in honest conversations about friendship, individuals can cultivate more fulfilling and resilient connections.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Friendship has untapped potential and that we undermine friendship by expecting too little of it."
  — Doree Shafrir [18:35]

• "The way that we treat friendship now, I think, is actually a total historical anomaly."
  — Doree Shafrir [23:16]

• "I've been accused of being anti-marriage, but I'm not. I'm critiquing how we venerate marriage and romantic relationships."
  — Doree Shafrir [25:53]

• "Find ways to spend a lot of time with another person. Our closest friendships often came from environments like school or camp."
  — Doree Shafrir [32:14]

• "Bringing meta conversation into friendship is one thing that I would recommend."
  — Doree Shafrir [49:01]

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Platonic Partnerships: Friendships can be as deep and committed as romantic relationships, offering emotional support and intimacy.

2. Historical Perspectives: The undervaluing of friendships today contrasts with historical practices where same-sex friendships were primary intimate bonds.

3. Intentional Investment: Building strong friendships requires deliberate efforts in spending time, creating shared experiences, and fostering physical connections.

4. Social Media Influence: While platforms like TikTok can both support and challenge the depth of friendships, balancing virtual and face-to-face interactions is crucial.

5. Meta-Conversations: Discussing the nature and health of friendships can lead to more fulfilling and resilient relationships.

By embracing these principles, listeners can transform their approach to friendships, recognizing them as essential pillars of a fulfilling and balanced life.

Transcript

[Dori Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Raina Cohen]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dori Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Raina Cohen]

Welcome to the show.

[Elise Hu]

Welcome. Yes, it is the continuation of Friendship month here at Forever35. Last week we had the brilliant Anna Goldfarb who talked to us about kind of the pillars of friendship, the ways to stay connected, the kind of bathtub analogy. I thought that was very useful. And yes, I'm just basking in the glow of friendship and thinking about this important connection in our lives yeah, it's such a.

[Raina Cohen]

It's such a great theme and you know something that I've been thinking a lot about this year, especially Elise. How are you?

[Elise Hu]

I'm great. Because by the time this comes out, it will officially be my birthday. And ideally I will have spent a great weekend with my friends in Ciudad de Mexico. So I'm really excited. There's people that are from various eras and different places in the world of my life that are coming together. So. And all in one city that is one of the most sophisticated and beautiful cities in the world. So really excited about that and hopefully I will still feel that way by the time this airs a few days in my gosh. The future.

[Raina Cohen]

Yes. Well, happy early birthday since we're recording this before your birthday and I hope you have a wonderful trip to Mexico.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. Thank you. It is also Michael Jordan's birthday and Paris Hilton.

[Raina Cohen]

Okay. I share a birthday with Janet Jackson and Tori Spelling.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Oh, those are good ones. Those are good ones. Oh, yes. Rob's one time girlfriend. Not Janet Jackson. Torch.

[Raina Cohen]

But when I worked at BuzzFeed, there were, at one point there were five of us with the same birthday. With my birthday.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, how fun.

[Raina Cohen]

Isn't that funny? And then also in my, like my Mommy and me class, when Henry was a baby, there were three babies born on my birthday.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, that's really special. Especially because your birthday's in May, right? You're a Taurus.

[Raina Cohen]

Yes, yes.

[Elise Hu]

So it's interesting because the most common month for birthdays is not spring, it is September.

[Raina Cohen]

September, right. Yeah. Because people like have sex on New Year's.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that. Or just the holidays in general. But September, mid September birthdays are the most common birthdays in, you know, according to our data.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And yeah. So February and May or less. Less cool. I guess less common. So it's kind of cool that you had so many people to share yours with. When I was in the Texas press corps, where I covered the Texas legislature, the press corps itself is not that big. I want to say like 25 people. But in the press corps, three of us shared February 17th as our birthday.

[Raina Cohen]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

So we would have. Yeah, we would have this big party for. Where we invited lawmakers and lobbyists and everybody together. We'd have like this three way birthday party. And it was such an event. We did it for like four or five years while we were all in one place. That was really special.

[Raina Cohen]

Oh, that's so fun. My sister's birthday's in May. My mom's birthday's in May. My nephew and I have the same birthday. So there's a lot of, like, family birthdays, and then there's also friend birthdays. And then there's also just like a lot of shit that happens in May, like graduations, Mother's Day, Memorial Day. Like, there's just like, a lot of stuff in May, it seems.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah. So it's like. Yeah, it's sort of like a weirdly busy month.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, it totally is. That's when everything snowballs. I think we talked about this because I came on the show as a co host, I think around that time, end of May, beginning of June last year. And it was a time where everything just compounds and snowballs and, like, rolls on top of each other.

[Raina Cohen]

It's fine. I'm fine. Yeah, really, I'm fine.

[Elise Hu]

Dory's fine. Dory's fine.

[Raina Cohen]

Everything's fine. Everything's fine.

[Elise Hu]

She can plan out her. Maybe just.

[Raina Cohen]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it's raining here in LA today and rain is always like, I don't know. We need, we definitely need rain, but just getting, but not too much, not.

[Elise Hu]

Too much, not too much. Because now there's a risk of mudslides. And so you have these micro climatologists who are in the burn scar in Altadena who are concerned that you're going to have mudslides come down from the San Gabriel Mountain. And now everybody's looking out for that. So hopefully we can avoid a second natural disaster on the tail end of the previous natural disaster from last month.

[Raina Cohen]

I would really, really like that.

[Elise Hu]

Just a break. Yes. But it does feel like we've been in perma crisis for a long time.

[Raina Cohen]

I know, I know.

[Elise Hu]

And that's really hard psychologically.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah, it is. It is kind of challenging psychologically. My parents are supposed to fly in tonight.

[Elise Hu]

Well, they should be able to, right.

[Raina Cohen]

Like, right when this. Right when it gets, like, pretty bad. So I don't know if they're gonna be, like, delayed or what, but I, I, they were like, well, if we're delayed, we'll take an Uber. And they're supposed to land at, like 10:30, so they're already landing kind of late. And I just hate driving in the rain here. And I was like, I don't really want to drive to LAX and bag to, like, pick.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, you're right. But no traffic at that hour. You're gonna be smooth sailing.

[Raina Cohen]

I don't know. I've had to drive late at night in the rain a bunch lately, like, for some reason. And it's not as like traffic free as you would think, partly because literally I've seen like the last. I was out last week at night and I saw three accidents.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my gosh. Nobody here knows how to drive.

[Raina Cohen]

Nobody here knows how to drive, right? So, like, yeah, maybe there aren't as many people out, but the people who are out are like, driving like idiots.

[Elise Hu]

We had torrential rainstorms in Texas. We called it raining a turd floater. Like, it's raining a turd floater out there. And so I'm totally used to that and lightning storms and thunderstorms. But palm fronds getting onto the 405, like just all over the 405, just debris that you're having to dodge. That is. That's new to me.

[Raina Cohen]

And palm fronds are like, heavier than you would think. They're very heavy. Yeah. The other issue is that the drainage in LA is bad. So the water pool, like, the second it starts raining, there's like flooding on every corner, including on the freeways are all also get like semi flooded. So it's just not like an ideal situation. So, you know, I'm hopeful that everything will be fine. But I am also sort of like, bracing myself for tonight.

[Elise Hu]

Drive safe. Drive safe out there. Drive safe out there, everyone. Because there's snowstorm. There's snow blanketing parts of the United States. And yeah, it's just this, this whole start to 2025 has felt like a lot. I hope you are taking good care of yourselves.

[Raina Cohen]

It's been a lot. It's been a lot. Well, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I'm really thrilled to because we have Raina Cohen on Today, and Raina and I worked together. We overlapped at npr, but as she pointed out before our conversation, I was always on the other side of the world. So it's not like we were colleagues, but we weren't in the same office. We weren't breathing the same air. You've probably seen a lot of her work lately because her book came out last year and it has a really important idea in it. And that's why our conversation is about kind of like the value of friendship as a relationship type, rather than actionable tips for friendship in the way that some of our other conversations may go. She is a producer and editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded. Her debut book, the Other Significant Others, tells the stories of people who have a friendship close enough to be a life partnership and how these devoted friendships can help us rethink romance, commitment, and the meaning of family. Family. She received support to work on the book from the National Endowment of the Humanities Public Scholars Program. Reina previously covered the social sciences as a producer at Hidden Brain. She's written freelance stories centered on gender policy and friendship for all kinds of Places, the Atlantic, the Washington Post, and others. And before entering public radio, she was a Marshall Scholar at Oxford, where she received a master's in Comparative Social Policy. She's a very thoughtful, thoughtful woman.

[Raina Cohen]

I think she offers such a, such an interesting perspective on friendship. And just the way she lives her life, I think is so interesting. Before we get to Raina, just a reminder that our website forever35podcast.com has links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're on Instagram @forever35 podcast on our patreon patreon.com forever35 we do our weekly casual chats, our monthly pop culture roundups. We have a Forever 35 questionnaire which is like bonus questions with our guests. We have chats, we have ad free episodes. I mean we have a good time. It's a party. It's a party over there.

[Elise Hu]

We have a good time.

[Raina Cohen]

You can shop our favorite products at shop my us forever35 and sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and please call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and just a reminder that we are taking questions about friendship that last week's guest Anna Goldfarb is going to be responding to at the end of the month. So please send in your questions about friendship. Keep them coming. Voicemail, text, email, it doesn't matter. And Anna will be back to answer that.

[Elise Hu]

Can't wait.

[Raina Cohen]

And we will be right back with Raina.

[Elise Hu]

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[Raina Cohen]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Raina Cohen]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrir]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Raina Cohen]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrir]

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[Dori Shafrir]

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[Raina Cohen]

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[Elise Hu]

Raina Cohen welcome to Forever35.

[Dori Shafrir]

Really happy to get to talk to.

[Elise Hu]

You both of you. Me too. Both of us are super excited to dive into friendship. You are part of our special series on friendship and however we are still starting our interviews the same way as we always do, which is what is something that you are doing for yourself that you consider self care.

[Dori Shafrir]

So I think that there are kind of typical answers like I do power yoga, whatever but I was actually thinking about the way that I structure my life in these bigger ways like I observe Shabbat or co living are ways that I feel like lead to self care because they they the things that bring joy to my life easier. You know, kind of as an example last night I after getting home from an errand at like 6:45 I was like crap, I haven't cooked dinner like I had I was supposed to do this and then my housemate ended up making a big meal and was like do you want, you want dinner? And then everybody happened to be home and a friend was over too and we just the five of us sat down for dinner and I didn't have to worry about anything and like a couple nights prior my housemate was playing on the piano, asked if I wanted to sing and then my husband came down the stairs and then he, he sang and then my other housemate came through the door. So I think of the kind of life setup I have as making it possible to have kind of more social connection and also alleviate some of the drudgery of life that I find not that fun. So that feels like kind of what self care looks like for me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's really lovely you mentioned Connection and really orienting around connection. So we have already introduced you in the title of your book, but why don't we give you some space to just. Just kind of give us the stump speech. Give us the central argument that you landed at after your years of exploring friendship and why we should center it.

[Dori Shafrir]

Really, I'm arguing that friendship has untapped potential and that we undermine friendship by expecting too little of it. And really, at the same time, I think undermine romantic relationships by expecting too much. And I found this by looking at people who have friendships that are so devoted that they really resemble romantic relationships, and they show that we really could ask much more of our friends and that the things that we expect only to get in a romantic relationship, like connection, like caregiving, actually can happen within platonic relationships.

[Raina Cohen]

And how have you seen that in your own life?

[Dori Shafrir]

Well, the thing that got me to this book is a very close friend. And the two of us, when we met and for the first couple years of our friendship, when we were living right near each other, to both of us, it felt like even the term best friend was insufficient. We were just much more involved in each other's lives than I had experienced in a friendship before. I mean, Elise and I talking about both being at npr. My friend had come to NPR quite a bit, including two officers, holiday parties, you know, got to know my colleagues, and they were so sad when she ended up leaving the country for grad school for a couple years, which is not, I think, the typical way that maybe people think about a friend being involved in your life. And we just sort of knew the ins and outs of each other's minds and lives and families and loved ones. And so that pointed me to this. This realization that the friendship could be much bigger and that it also wasn't just us. Like, I saw other people in my life who had these friendships. I was vaguely aware of some history of friendship being much deeper. So, yeah, I realize that we have placed unnecessary limits on friendship and don't understand how enriching it can be and instead kind of treat it as this lesser type of relationship.

[Elise Hu]

And you landed at labeling this. Right. You're calling it platonic partnerships. But previously there wasn't really a name for this type of relationship if you are sort of in a platonic partnership. And thank you. I mean, it's good, good that writers like you and authors like you are, like, trying to put. Give us a license and give us a language around these types of relationships, because I think many of us can recognize those in our own lives. But then can't describe them. So now that you've landed on it, how do we kind of make it more of a cultural norm? And then how do we seek out these kinds of relationships, too?

[Dori Shafrir]

I mean, I think we can make it more of a norm by asking more of the friends in our lives and asking more of ourselves within friendships, being more proactive. And some of it can be kind of simple, like integrating people into your everyday life. Like, I have a recurring time to meet one of my friends. It used to be Monday nights when her husband was at choir practice and she was home with the kid. And I would just go over to her place, and we've adjusted it because now. Now she's on maternity leave. But, like, we've kept the same principle. That's something like, very small to decide that you are going to show your value, show how much you value a friendship by putting it on your calendar, basically. I think there are more ambitious or more demanding ways that we can orient our lives around friends. I'm experiencing a version of this now. A group of us are trying to buy property together in D.C. where I live. And it's a big project, and it feels a little bit like where we're, like, kind of going through this dating process of figuring out, like, do we want to live with these people for years and make this big commitment? But for us, we want to be able to live lives for the long term that are not isolated and where we are kind of resisting this idea that in order to be a full adult, what you need is to get married and then go find a house where it's just the two of you and maybe and your kids or your dog, and you have a backyard and you've got some fancy appliances in your kitchen. And, like, that means that you've made it. I think there's. It's about a willingness to ask, like, what actually would you enjoy? What would a good day in your life look like, you know, 10 years from now? And for us, that means being able to, you know, walk next door into our friend's house or have them be living upstairs. So I think that's. That's maybe a more extreme thing for people to consider that you can build your life around your friends.

[Raina Cohen]

Can you also touch on kind of what this has looked like historically? Like, has there been a time when friendship did not look kind of the way it does now and people were seeking out these types of arrangements?

[Dori Shafrir]

The way that we treat friendship now, I think, is actually a total historical anomaly. The story of this is Very entangled in marriage. So if you're looking hundreds of years ago, I mean really only a couple hundred years ago, marriage was something that in laws arranged for their kids. And it is still the case in many, in many parts of the world and in certain communities that marriage is really an economic institution. You were lucky if love was part of it. I mean, if you've watched Bridgerton, you see how big of a deal it is to have a love match. And if you have a relationship where one person is the property of another person, which was the case until basically the mid 20th century in the US it's hard to have a lot of the kinds of friendly relations that you would expect now between spouses, where people talk about their spouses, their, their best friend. So in the past, instead of having a spouse be your best friend and be the be all and end all, you would have very intimate same sex friendships. And you know, one term for this has been romantic friendships. And you see the both between same sex friends between men and between women. And they're, you know, even farther back in history, men would go through these rituals in churches that would, that would turn them into brothers. It was called sworn brotherhood and it was sort of one of the main rights that you would have in Christianity. And there were ceremonies and rituals that were built around friendship. It wasn't just a private relationship between two people. It could be publicly acknowledged and it wasn't necessarily, you know, it wasn't by definition inferior to a romantic relationship or a marriage. And that, you know, that could be what the main source of your intimacy in life rather than the person who, you know, you were basically assigned to go procreate with.

[Elise Hu]

Have you run into counter arguments to what you've been saying out there and then, and, and have they been surprising to you? Like, I'm curious now that the book has been out almost a year, like, like where the life of this case is and especially against the backdrop of a resurgent kind of Christian nuclear family argument that we're seeing a lot among people in power.

[Dori Shafrir]

I mean, I've been accused of being anti marriage, which is something I was expecting, which, you know, like, I'm married. I've, by the end of this year I will have officiated three weddings. Like, I'm not an anti marriage person. But I think that that is, you know, if there's a critique in the book of the way that we venerate marriage and romantic relationships and the way that our laws reinforce a hierarchy and sort of like make the winners win even more by heaping benefits on spouses. And there are people who are very concerned about the retreat from marriage in places like the US that marriage rates have declined. People are getting married later, and for them, anything that indicates that there are viable alternatives to marriage that you can be happy with, you know, other. Other ways of constructing life is. Is concerning or is threatening. And so that's where I've gotten some pushback. I actually got, like, less than I expected, and it was important. I mean, there's. I can think of, like, a person who had a book come out the same day as mine, and his book was called Get Married. It's, like, a slightly different argument than what I'm making. But, you know, I say that I. I'm really trying to approach this from a pluralistic perspective. I'm not saying that friendship has been outcast for a long time, but really it is the best relationship, and marriage sucks. Like the. I. I don't believe in. In replacing one hierarchy with another. I think people's. People are so different, and where they get a sense of meaning and what a good life looks like differs. And it is just a re. A real fact about how life is right now that many people have a friendship that is the most significant relationship in their life, despite everything about our culture and society and laws pushing against that. So, you know, I. And it was also important to me in the book to, like, depict people who are conservative and to show that this is. And people who are not ideological about having these kinds of friendships, but fell into them. So I feel pretty lucky that I've. I've gotten some, you know, some pushback. But I'm, you know, I'm not. Not, like, barnstorming and saying, like, go and throw out your wedding rings and disparage everybody who's married. I just. I think it's more about provoking questions about what really matters. And can we just question some of the assumptions we have as a society?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, the defaults. Challenging the defaults. Raina, you write part of this book. Obviously, you weave in your own experiences and your friendship with M, or who you call M, and also your living arrangements. So you. You mentioned where you're at now. You're now trying to buy a home with other folks, but talk a little bit about how you've been living in a way that is more considered, more unconventional.

[Dori Shafrir]

So now in, like, the middle of the. I guess middle of 2021, my husband and I moved in with two of our good friends and their child. And that, you know, it ended up. It was a kind of unexpected decision, I think especially on our friends part. But we became extremely close with the friends that we lived with. I mean my husband and I are going to spend time with them in a couple weeks. They now live in New York. Like we have a connection with the kids that's like total. You know, when you've known a child since day one and you've lived with.

[Elise Hu]

Them for it feels parental.

[Dori Shafrir]

Yeah. And it's helped us develop a really special relationship. And then they moved out this summer and my husband and I persuaded a friend to move to D.C. to live with us and then another friend who got a job in the administration moved in as well. DC stuff. The people I'm living with now are now part of a larger group of friends who are trying to figure out what does it look like to buy property together and particularly looking toward raising kids in a way that's more. That's like not isolating that that's a really unfortunate thing that I think parents assume has to be the case in the US that like you've got to go it alone.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It's such a precarious unit, the nuclear family.

[Dori Shafrir]

Well, I think it's like there's so, you know, you're asking about the critiques I had or like people pushing against it and there's, there's a, you know, this kind of like math argument that one, like two parents are better than one or like two parents have more stability than one, more money and so on. And it's like well, well why not three or four? Like why are we stopping at two? Why is two the magic number? That that is, that is enough to take, you know, take care of children in a household and maybe aging parents and so on. And, and I just, you know, I see my like that I think what my friends and I are attempting to do is just like a slightly different version of what I see of like a multi generational household or a more extended family like my brother's, my brother lives with, with his wife and my father and my sister and my sister in law's parents who like moved from China to help raise their like their grandchild. And it, yeah, it's like it's a version of the same thing, but one looks more traditional and, but I think the, some of the underlying principles of like we need more support and care than even what a nuclear family household can offer.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. Back.

[Raina Cohen]

Can we go back to talking about the idea of the like the platonic Partner, friendship. One thing that I'm hearing from you is that friendships often take work and care and intentionality in a way that we might not be accustomed to. Like, I think for a lot of us, we just sort of see friendships as, like, things that happen. Like, we just sort of meet people and become friendly, and that's kind of it. And we don't need to, like, think about it beyond that. And so I'm wondering, like, what. What would you recommend for people who want to cultivate those closer friendships that they might not have?

[Dori Shafrir]

I mean, one thing that comes to mind is a. These kind of ingredients of attachment that a researcher told me about, which are time, togetherness, and touch. And this applies to any kind of really close relationship. So it can be parent, child, romantic relationship, also friendship. And so one thing is find ways to spend a lot of time with another person. And a lot of our closest friendships often came from school or a camp environment, something that's intense. So being bold and willing to ask people to maybe spend more than just a couple hours at a coffee shop is one way to get, Get. Get closer. And then I. On the togetherness part, I. I think of it as, as, like you are living life alongside each other, that you aren't just kind of narrating what has happened to you in the past. And that can be something as simple as running errands together. And then, you know, you'll probably have some kind of funny or interesting experiences or things that you can recall along the way. And then the touch piece is like being, you know, like, physical connection matters. And I have seen in different ways how people often want more physical intimacy in their friendships, but are afraid to ask for it because they don't know that other people want it as well. And not everybody wants the same thing. But I think there's, you know, maybe a recurring theme here is like, willing to. Being willing to initiate and being willing to be rejected, frankly. Like, that is. That is part of it, that people would rather play it safe, even if that means suffering the consequences of not getting closer to people. And I think that some of the friendships that I know that really fast tracked and also got very, very close involve somebody, like, taking a lot of initiative or making an overture. Like, one friend invited another that she barely knew to join her and her siblings for vacation for a little bit, and that friend was like, yeah, sure, I'll come along. Or like, another couple, some other friends like that. I know one of them, they both do some woodworking, and one has, like, a garage where she could help the other with a project she was working on. And then they ended up spending a bunch of afternoons together refinishing a table. And then, you know, that just sort of spun out into more and more things. And so that sometimes means like asking people to say things they might say no to.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I always, this is such an important point because I'm always down to drive people to the airport. There's folks who come into town, I have friends who are like from D.C. or New York or whatever and come into town and they only are in town for a day or two for meetings and don't have time to like actually do a formal sit down face to face, catch up over a meal or a coffee or something. But what I like to do is the old airport ride catch up. And it's an opportunity for us to be in the car for like 15, 20 minutes one way and then. Or like I have to go pick them up from wherever there is. So they are. So maybe it's longer, but it's an opportunity to do a catch up. But I feel as though. So a lot of folks wouldn't ask or like don't ask because it seems like an imposition, but it's actually like a love language for me and an opportunity for me to catch up with my friends. And so it's almost. We kind of. I just want to buttress your point, which is like just ask, you know.

[Dori Shafrir]

And, and people are, are like, so some people love helping in this way. And also you're saying like, like you're saying that I, I know you don't have a lot of time, but I want to do whatever I can to make sure we still get to see each other. Right. And you're reminding me of an experience where like I met someone who I just totally clicked with in, in Denver, which I don't know, next time I'll be there. And she just drove me to that we just had an hour together because she drove me to the airport. And we're like, we don't know if we'll get to see each other again, but we had an amazing conversation and like we were just texting recently and yeah, I don't remember even who like if that was offered or I asked it, but I think that there's like, I think that would not have come about maybe a few years ago, but now that I've come to realize that you don't want friendship to be transactional, sometimes people should just give things and that, that instead of being an imposition that you then have to make up is actually something that tells you that you want to become closer and that maybe we jump to this assumption that things are burdens when actually they are indic. That you are excited to, to be with another person.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah. So for all my friends who are listening, I'm always down to give you a ride to the airport.

[Raina Cohen]

I love that. I love that so much. That's like, that's, that's. Yeah. What a, what a, what a. First of all, what a thoughtful thing. Because in la, giving someone a ride to the airport is like an hour.

[Dori Shafrir]

Instead of 15 minutes.

[Raina Cohen]

Very intense thing to do. So that already is like a true sign of friendship. But I, I love this idea of like taking opportunities to cultivate friendship in, in ways that might not seem immediately obvious. Like it's not just like, oh, we must get dinner and drinks or whatever. It's like, oh, we can actually have a meaningful conversation where we reconnect over a ride to the airport.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Time, togetherness and touch.

[Raina Cohen]

Yes. Yes. I love that so much. Reina, I want to ask you about how you think social media and I think I'm really specifically talking about TikTok is affecting friendship. And I have been thinking about this because I was just reading an article in Vox today. I sent this to Elise about how protecting your peace, and I'm using air quotes for that phrase, can destroy your friendships because it makes people conflict, avoidant and too quick to cut people out of their lives. And that these are ideas that are spreading on TikTok. And so this is kind of a two parter and if this is like too much to tackle at once, totally fine.

[Dori Shafrir]

Mostly I'm like, oh, what do I know about TikTok? But I'll try.

[Raina Cohen]

Well, I'm wondering, I guess I'm wondering if you have seen like what you have seen in terms of social media trends influencing friendship and I guess that's probably most applicable to Gen Z, although it's probably spreading among other generations as well. And also if you could speak to this idea of, of protecting your peace or like, you know, protecting your mental health and then what it might also do to friendship.

[Dori Shafrir]

I feel like I've seen things that are pretty putting it like pushing in the opposite direction. Like when the, the question about, you know, me putting a label to these kinds of friendships and they didn't exist before, I, I have like Google alerts on different terms like platonic life partner and there were some people on TikTok who, who made these viral videos about their platonic life partner. That, you know, got a bunch of attention. So. And people who sort of are. I mean, I'm send things all the time from like TikTok and Instagram where people are talking about how friendship can be romantic or like how friends can be the most important person in your life. So I actually have seen like quite a lot that is showing, you know, is pointing to this idea that friendship can really matter. And then I think that the flip side is like, maybe the, I don't know, for lack of a better term, therapy speak that is very integrated into social media now. People talking about boundaries and have very loose ideas of when one should apply boundaries. So like any sign of discomfort and that. And, and that that gets applied to, to friendships as well. I mean, another thing that I'm thinking of is Derek Thompson just had a piece in the Atlantic where he like talked about a bunch of TikTok videos that are where young people are talking about how happy they are when people like a friend cancels on them and that they're relieved to be, you know, to be free to those plans. And it's a little bit like, I don't know, like, I mean, it's, it's like funny at first, but is. Do we really, given the state of how, how much time people are spending alone and report being lonely, is like, is being excited that your friends canceled actually the direction that like, or something that we wanted to celebrate. So I think I've seen some of that as well, but it feels, I'm not, I'm not sure which outweighs like, because all this is just like algorithms too. It's like, like I get, I get sent stuff that is much more pro friendship than let me protect my, my life and not let people in who are going to be toxic or that sort of thing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, that, that makes sense. The other dimension of it and the fact that we're all growing up on screens or young people are growing up on screens is togetherness and touch are components of building friendship. And like, you know, proximity has always been really important for social bonds. Right. Does it count when it's virtual?

[Dori Shafrir]

I mean, I think it, it does for a lot of people. And I try to again, on the different things for different people. Some people have found their closest friends virtually or wouldn't have been able to meet anybody who's like them in, let's say, a small town where nobody agrees with them on this, that or the other. So I don't want to discount that, but I think if you have, if you are replacing opportunities for in person time again and again with virtual experiences that at the very least it might be worth testing out. Like what if I did a few things in person with people that I might otherwise do online? And do I feel any different? I mean I like I'm a person who's all about like connecting with others, but I still sometimes have to drag myself out to like go to. I do swing dance and I will be like lazy about it and then when I, or I will sometimes skip it or you know, will be having to trudge in 20 degree weather and then when I'm there I'm so happy and I have to remind myself like I will be happier once I'm there and it's going to take some work to get there. But. So I understand that there are ways of, of spending time virtually that are, that are more, that are easier, more accessible.

[Elise Hu]

But.

[Dori Shafrir]

But yeah, I just, I really don't think it's a full replacement for what happens when you're face to face with people. And I think we also know this from the pandemic. Like people were not that there were some, there were, there were ways some people got to connect more with others they wouldn't have from far away. But I don't think a lot of people came out of the pandemic being like, you know what, I don't need to see anybody in person anymore. Like I was totally sated with the screen.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrir]

The social media stuff, like were you seeing strong messages that were all like virtual, you know, everything virtual is fine. Or every. Don't, don't prioritize your friends.

[Raina Cohen]

No, no, no.

[Elise Hu]

Separate question. Totally. Yeah, yeah.

[Raina Cohen]

No, no, no. What I have. And you, you touched on this. What I have seen a lot of is discussions of like boundaries and you know, I think also the whole concept of self care has been discussed as sort of a double edged sword. People not showing up for friends or you know, doing things because they need to take care of themselves. And it's, and it's hard to say like is that of course that is probably very real if someone has anxiety or someone, you know, or whatever, who cares what it is. But like there are very real reasons for people to not want to participate in social interactions. But I think what people are now starting to say is like, well there's also a cost to that and that, you know, if you don't want to hang out with your friends because you're depressed. Well, there's actually also research that shows that it helps alleviate depression when you do leave your house and See your friends and care for other people and, you know, so I think all of these ideas are, are complicated. So.

[Dori Shafrir]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what.

[Raina Cohen]

I'm sort of personally wrestling with.

[Dori Shafrir]

Yeah. I also think there's something important there about how sometimes the very people or moments in your life when you most need other people around who are least motivated to do it. And like, how do you get out of that kind of bind? And, and some, maybe that's like your friends come to you or like we need to have, we, we need to have a, an understanding that sometimes like, we need to go check in on people and that that is part of what being a good friend is and not, not necessarily expecting that at every given moment someone's going to have the wherewithal to like, seek out what they need from the friendship.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Raina Cohen]

And I, you know, I know for me personally, my, the nature of my friendships has changed because I think I used to not, not, I used to not demand enough from my friendships and so I did not know how to be such a great friend. And so I didn't have friends who are that great to me either. Whereas now I think I'm a little more aware of all of that. And so the people in my life are like, more likely to show up and I'm more likely to lean on them. You know, like, I think my friends from the past, I, I never wanted to like, ask anything of them because I didn't think, I think, I didn't think actually they would show up for me then.

[Dori Shafrir]

So you're preempting disappointment.

[Raina Cohen]

Exactly. Whereas now I just text Elise.

[Elise Hu]

And.

[Dori Shafrir]

I'll give her a ride to the airport.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dori Shafrir]

Yeah. I mean, I do think that that is really, it's really powerful to have models of what like, a great friend can be. In the same way that, like, if someone has never had a decent romantic relationship or hasn't seen anybody around them have a decent romantic relationship, like they settle for things that aren't, like, aren't good and maybe not act in ways that, that are kind of what they're most capable of in the, in the best situation. So, yeah, I, I, I'm glad that you were able to like, find your way to friends who have made, have both made you a better friend and have allowed you to get what you, you deserved.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah, look, I mean, it's a, it's, it's a work in progress us, but I feel like I'm at least being cognizant of it. I think is, is, and and taking steps to sort of make it better is important.

[Elise Hu]

And this is a great seg to let you wrap up, Raina, with a lot of the things that we've already kind of talked about or touched on. But because we do often as a society unintentionally diminish the value of our friends friendships and our friends friends, how do we more actively invest in our existing friendships? And for those of us who are adults and want to cultivate new ones, what do you say to us?

[Dori Shafrir]

I always think of a question that somebody that I interviewed for the book just ended up asking himself. He has a platonic partnership, so very close friendship and therefore knows how deep a friendship can be. And he started to ask about the other friendships in his life. What is the fullest version of this friendship? And he has found different answers to that. And one was co working with friends once a week and getting to spend time at their house as part of that. And I think looking at the friendships in your life and figuring out is where that friendship is, where you want it to be, and if not, what is the kind of most vibrant form of it and being really creative about, about how you would get there is something that we can do. I mean, I, and I think that that is a, there's a level of reflection about friendship that we're not even used to or having meta conversations within your friend friendships, which we are expected to do in romantic relationships. But how often do you talk to your friends about your friendship and how it's doing? Like, I think bringing meta conversation into friendship is one thing that I would recommend. Recommend.

[Raina Cohen]

Yes. I love that so much. And it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about, you know, having to put in. I don't, I, I hesitate to call it work because that, that makes it sound so negative. But intentionality, I think is, is how I want to kind of think about it into your friendships. Effort, effort, effort is a great one. Yes. Reina, where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?

[Dori Shafrir]

So I wrote a book that is called the Other Significant Others Reimagining Life with Friendship at I also have a newsletter that I occasionally write some things in that's called Related. And it's just you search my first name, Raina on substack and also my, my name Aina Cohen on Instagram. I think that's the places on the Internet where I am. And then I also do periodically I write for the Atlantic about these sorts of issues.

[Raina Cohen]

Great. Well, thank you so much. It was so great to have you.

[Dori Shafrir]

On to more meta conversation and drives to the airport from friends.

[Raina Cohen]

All right. I, I love how each of our guests offers like a, a unique take on friendship and has like, made me think about friendship in so many different ways.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's a really enriching month that we're having and I felt that way about menopause, midlife and menopause month too. So totally can't, can't wait to figure out what our next theme month is going to be because we haven't decided.

[Raina Cohen]

Oh, very cool. Well, now we are in the intention zone. And last week my intention was to enjoy friendship because I had a good friend coming into town and I did. We had a great weekend. I got to see her a bunch, got to see her one on one and with a group and it was just, it was just really nice. So intention fulfilled. That's. Yeah. And I think I mentioned this like at the beginning of January where I was like, I have a really crazy, like six weeks coming up. It was like tennis Palm Springs, my, like my friend coming into town, my parents coming into town, and this weekend is my parents coming into town. So I am just going to try to enjoy my parent visit and, and be grateful that they are here and able to visit me and hopefully they'll be able to spend some quality time with Henry.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Raina Cohen]

Yeah. How about you? How is the content producing factory going for you?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, gosh. I have asked for a deadline extension. I've never felt so overloaded with things I have to write. And so, and to be fair, I've never written a screenplay and I didn't know just like how hard it was. I mean, I knew it was hard just anecdotally from people talking about how hard it is. But yeah, now that I'm actually doing it and I finished it. So the good news is I finished it, but it needs a polish. And so I asked for another week so that I can give it the attention that it deserves and really think through some places that aren't quite working. And so, yeah, I did fulfill the intention. I'm just not quite done yet with the dead. I haven't quite met my deadline response responsibilities. So intention and the specific assignments are different. And then this week, this week I want to be still. I would like. My intention is to be still because I do feel like we're in this everything's on fire every day kind of psychological space as a country. And it's very exhausting. And so we have a long weekend coming up by this time this airs, it will be the end of the long weekend. But during the long weekend and beyond, I think just finding time to be still is my intention because we do have to be pretty intentional about that in this era and in this world we live in.

[Raina Cohen]

I. I like. I like that. I mean, I'm gonna be tough. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for listening and a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Sha Freer, Annelise Hu and producer, produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

See you next time.

[Raina Cohen]

Bye. All right, I'm gonna let you in on a secret, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Raina Cohen]

I kind of always thought I could be a really great spy.

[Elise Hu]

I could see this.

[Raina Cohen]

I'm just saying, like, like a, like a Jennifer Garner and alias type spy.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Raina Cohen]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

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