Episode 344: Becoming A Man with Ash Perez

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 344: Becoming A Man with Ash Perez

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Ash Perez
Release Date: March 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 344 titled "Becoming A Man," Forever35 hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu sit down with Ash Perez, a multifaceted writer and producer known for his work across various media platforms. Ash brings a rich perspective as a first-generation queer individual of Cuban, Korean, and Filipino descent, navigating personal transformation and professional growth in the public eye.

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Self-Care Practices and the Impact of COVID-19

Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu begin by reflecting on the five-year anniversary of the COVID-19 shutdowns, sharing personal anecdotes about the early days of the pandemic. This sets the stage for Ash Perez to discuss how COVID-19 significantly altered his life.

Ash Perez elaborates on his self-care journey during the pandemic:

"My self care is just like, I'll even text my girlfriend and be like, if she's not in the house with me, I'll be like, hey, I'm going on do not disturb. And I just watch basketball and it is so nice. And like even during commercials and stuff, like I don't go to my phone, I just sit there and try and like be present."
(12:23)

He emphasizes the importance of single-discipline focus, limiting phone usage to enhance mental well-being:

"I started putting, like, limits on my phone and the apps, and it just gives you cognizance of, like, how often you're on it."
(13:04)

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Professional Journey and Transition to Los Angeles

Ash Perez shares his professional trajectory, highlighting his rise from an intern at BuzzFeed to becoming a full-time writer and producer in Los Angeles. His move was significantly influenced by Doree Shafrir, who encouraged him to join her team, facilitating his transition from the bustling environment of New York to the creative hub of LA.

"You're actually the reason that I was able to move to LA, because I was in New York at BuzzFeed and did not want to be there anymore..."
(15:13)

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Personal Transformation and Gender Transition

The conversation delves deep into Ash's personal life, particularly his gender transition following the loss of his father to COVID-19. This pivotal moment led Ash to reassess his identity and embrace his true self.

Ash Perez reflects on shedding old identities tied to his father's expectations:

"When my dad died, I realized, like, I had so much. I was so tied to the idea of being Daddy's girl... Those layers kind of just shed themselves."
(25:10)

He discusses his ongoing journey with transitioning and the physical and emotional changes it entails:

"So growth is constant. I'm starting to get my beard. My voice is still lowering... I have acne because I am just going through a second adolescence right now."
(32:40)

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Exploring Masculinity and Manhood

Ash Perez offers a nuanced exploration of masculinity, contrasting his experiences as a transgender man with societal norms. He highlights the privileges associated with manhood while grappling with its complexities.

"The biggest thing that's fucking insane is just feeling physically safe wherever I go... I get a lot more respect. I feel like if I say something, people automatically default to listening to me."
(28:56)

Ash also shares insights from his series "New Guy Tries," which chronicles his journey into manhood and examines broader themes of masculinity and patriarchy:

"We were all reflecting on our dads and brothers and Systems of where. Where did we get this from?"
(27:37)

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Dealing with Fame and Public Life

Ash discusses his accidental rise to fame through BuzzFeed, managing public recognition, and maintaining personal boundaries amidst growing online attention.

"We went in a span of six months from nobody knowing us to having 700,000 followers... But now, post my dad, I'm very public about my grief and I share pretty much every part of that."
(35:32)

He reflects on the challenges of being relatable online while preserving his authentic self:

"My whole personality was about being awkward. It kept me in this kind of stasis of staying young and awkward, even as I was maturing a little bit."
(36:03)

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Relationship with Family

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Ash's relationship with his mother, Cookie, and how her support has been instrumental during his transition.

Ash Perez recounts the initial struggle his mother faced when he came out as bisexual and later as transgender:

"Fifteen years ago, when I came out as bisexual, my mom cried for, like, four years and couldn't deal with it... Now she's been putting together so much stuff from my childhood."
(42:26)

He highlights the evolving understanding and acceptance within his family:

"My mom just saw me and was like, oh, my God, you're so much happier... So let them do whatever they're doing to be happy, as long as it doesn't hurt someone else."
(44:52)

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Facing Transphobia and Advocacy

Ash addresses the current socio-political climate, emphasizing the threats faced by non-cis, non-white identities, especially trans children. He advocates for empathy and understanding as critical tools to combat transphobia.

"I just try and, like, you can be a dick or not... the only way through this is for everybody to have more empathy."
(47:54)

He shares personal experiences of encountering transphobia and the importance of supportive communities:

"I got uninvited to my best friend's bachelorette party because she didn't feel comfortable seeing me shirtless... The last thing trans people and people of color need right now is to be a sounding board for all of the horror that's happening in the world."
(45:07)

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Self-Care Practices Continued

Ash elaborates on his ongoing self-care strategies, aligning them with his personal growth and mental health maintenance.

"I don't read the news. I don't need to know how horrible things are for trans people. It's terrifying to just be myself and be in my body."
(48:38)

He emphasizes creating meaningful content as a coping mechanism and a way to foster human connection:

"All I can do as a trans person is to put my humanity on display, and then it's your choice whether you want to be a dick or not."
(49:49)

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Ash Perez encourages listeners to engage with his work, including his series "New Guy Tries" and his Substack newsletter. The hosts express their gratitude for Ash's candidness and the depth of the conversation, highlighting the importance of such dialogues in fostering understanding and self-care.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ash Perez: "When my dad died, I realized... Those layers kind of just shed themselves." (25:10)

• Ash Perez: "The biggest thing that's fucking insane is just feeling physically safe wherever I go... I get a lot more respect." (28:56)

• Ash Perez: "We were all reflecting on our dads and brothers and Systems of where. Where did we get this from?" (27:37)

• Ash Perez: "I don't read the news. I don't need to know how horrible things are for trans people. It's terrifying to just Be myself and be in my body." (48:38)

• Ash Perez: "All I can do as a trans person is to put my humanity on display, and then it's your choice whether you want to be a dick or not." (49:49)

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Where to Find Ash Perez

• Substack: What Are We Even Doing Here?
• Instagram: @ash_perez
• Series: New Guy Tries on Second Try

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This episode of Forever35 offers a profound and intimate look into Ash Perez's journey of self-discovery, professional evolution, and the intricate dance of embracing one's authentic self amidst societal challenges. It's a must-listen for anyone navigating similar paths or seeking deeper understanding of gender, identity, and resilience.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrir]

You know, a lot of people hear LA or Los Angeles and think only of the celebrities here and the movies that are made here. But there's so much more to love about the city I call home now. From walk up windows and rooftop bars to year round al fresco dining, Los Angeles is a culinary thrill ride sure to leave visitors hungry for more tacos or sushi, Brazilian or Korean food from anywhere in the world can be found right here in la. And when you're done eating, there's shopping or there's hikes all around la. Or just get a taste for fame firsthand by attending a star ceremony on Hollywood Boulevard. Catch a glimpse behind the scenes at a world famous studio tour. Need a breather? Don't forget to stop in your tracks and look up. Soak in our legendary blue sky. That's the light that inspires directors around the world. We love LA. Find more ways to love [e-mail]. catch the new Hulu original comedy Mid Century Modern from the creators of Will and Grace, executive producer Ryan Murphy and director James Burrows. When three best friends move in together, Palm Springs will never be the same. Bunny, Jerry and Arthur are already close friends, but when they decide to live together, it's a new chapter with a new family. And speaking of family, don't forget Bunny's mom Sybil, who is along for the ride. Whether it's a trip to Fire island or local congresswoman with a wild side, these roomies know how to do it with style. They're fun, they're fabulous, and they're turning life's lemons into spiked lemonade. So shake up a batch of cocktails, relax by the pool and get ready for some serious shade. A new comedy with heart, soul and sass. Mid Century Modern stars Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Nathan Lee Graham and Linda Lavin. Mid century modern premieres March 28, streaming on Hulu. Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrir]

How's it going, Elise?

[Elise Hu]

I'm okay. We are checking in today, Monday, just a few days after like the five year anniversary of everything shutting down because of COVID Do you remember where you were when they like shut down schools and told you not to do non essential things?

[Dory Shafrir]

So the weekend before stuff started shutting down, we were in Vegas and we were getting like, like the news was sounding like increasingly frantic and my parents were at our house watching Henry, who was then like nine months old. And I was like, I'm sending an instacart order to our house with like lots of toilet paper. And my mom was like, oh, right, okay. Like totally thinking I was overreacting. And then that Wednesday, which was when the NBA like canceled their games and Tom Hanks said he had Covid that night I had plans with like nine moms from my baby group to have dinner at John and Vinny's. And we went and we were all sort of like, are we like, can we hug? Like, no one really knew what to do.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

And then the next day someone I knew was in town who was a photographer and she was doing some project on like podcast. I forget what she was doing, but she came to our house and she took pictures of me and Henry. And then I think I also went to the Jane Club, which was. It used to be this like co working space for women here in la and everything was like weird. Like people were like wiping down tables. Like no one knew what to do. You know what I mean? Oh, no.

[Elise Hu]

I remember that week very clearly.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. And so, yeah. And it just, it then it was like, oh, things are going to be closed for two weeks. I just remember that. And yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Into all the activities that we'd be able to do. I'm like, oh, cool, I get to run homeschool for a little bit. I was like kind of excited about it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

But yeah, that Wednesday when Tom and Rita got it was such a turning point because they are like America's mom and dad in a lot of ways. And I was in New York and New York had already been hit by Covid or had it had begun to get hit by Covid. And you know, I am a Chinese person and I appear as a Chinese American. And so like, I remember like needing to cough because my throat was dry on the subway and then panicking like, I can't cough while Asian. And this was all before all of the, you know, attacks on Asian people and the Kung flu and everything that they were calling. But yeah, I remember being self conscious about coughing on the subway. But also I was there at Penguin Random House on that Wednesday that you're talking about to do meetings for my book because I was like going around doing the in person meetings for the book that became flawless. And I remember being at Penguin Random house at like 11 o'clock for that meeting. And then as we were leaving, an email went out to the whole publishing house saying, like, you need to start working from home at 1:00pm oh. So I might have been like one of the last in person meetings at PRH before they were done for months and months and months, if not a year plus. But then that was the last night that Broadway was open too.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh.

[Elise Hu]

And my agent and my friend Alex Garcia, the documentary filmmaker, and I got together at this house where I was staying in soho. And we decided to sing karaoke together at the house because there was like a karaoke set up. And I shit you not, two out of three of them, the next week went down. Yeah, it was Howard and Alex.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh my God.

[Elise Hu]

And they were like, we're really sick and we've been sick for a long time. And. And they didn't realize it was Covid until like they lost their sense of taste and smell, which was new at the time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yikes.

[Elise Hu]

Because Covid was running rampant that week of March 10th. March 11th, yes, New York. And it was such a scary time. But yeah, I've just been very wistful and reflective on that time because it does feel like it's where the timeline split, though. You and I know that the real timelines split at Bush V. Gore in 2000, but another timeline split happened in March of 2020. And then so much of the social fabric and the inequalities that we see today with education and the loneliness epidemic and, and wealth and the way we work and the gender gap and so many things you could argue go back and then the like, distrust of medicine and public health, go back to that turning point. And so I've been really thinking about it. The New York Times did a really eye opening series of charts. It's like five charts or ten charts that show how Covid changed everything. And I've just been reflecting on that a lot and in a lot of ways, like our lives just kind of ground back up again or the wheels of capitalism just start back, started back up again after the restrictions were lifted and the stay at home orders stopped and the vaccines were more universal. But I just wonder whether we really kind of spiritually or collectively as people really kind of reckoned with everything that happened. And it's so important because we're in this time of increasingly frequent and intense natural disasters which do similar things as pandemics. Right. They kind of stop everything. So we wanted to put this question out to you, sort of like, how have you changed? How have the way that you've taken care of yourself or each other changed as a result of COVID And like, what do you remember about it? What did you take away from it? Are you still keeping up with your sourdough starters? I mean, all of that.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know, Elise, Kate and I did a podcast. We did a daily podcast called Here.

[Elise Hu]

I remember that. Yeah, I've heard a couple episodes of it, because I was listening to it, I think, in the. In the beginning, and I thought it was such a service that y'all just checked in every day.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, it was.

[Elise Hu]

And I think Capsule.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, I was just gonna say it's a. I think it's a real time capsule. I haven't gone back and listened to it, but I feel like it is such a time capsule, because I. I just remember we did an episode on Covid because some of our listeners. Like, we had a listener in Italy who called in, and do you remember, like, Italy got hit really hard early. And then we were like, we'll just do a daily podcast. And I. I was really glad we did it. And it was also one of those things where we were like, well, we'll just do it for these two weeks that we're all. Then it was like. So we did. I think we did about two months of it because we really intended it to be just this, like, short thing. And then it was like, oh, this is. There's no end in sight. So it was kind of crazy. But anyway, the reason we. Well, part of the reason we were thinking about this, in addition to just, like, the press coverage around it, is because this came up a bunch in our conversation with our guest today, Ash Perez, whose father died from COVID and he talks a lot about how that affected the rest of his life.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it was a real timeline split for him individually.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, yes, exactly. So we'd love to hear from you. And before we get to Ash, I just want to remind everyone you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. You can follow us on Instagram @forever35podcast. Join our patreon at patreon.com forever35. Shop our favorite products at Shopmy Us. Slash forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com.

[Elise Hu]

And just one quick note on our Patreon, where a lot of things are happening, where we have our monthly pop culture episodes, where we have our special Tuesday Q&As with our Monday guests that are extras, and then our Friday casual chats that are only available to our paid Patreon subscribers. We also let you all decide what our theme months are going to be. And so we have a poll up right now and it's going to be live or you're going to have a voting period for the next week or so to choose what we're going to give the series treatment to another time this year. So we've already done Midlife and Menopause. That was our first themed month last year. And then we're just coming off of Friendship Month. So let us know what's on your mind. And I'm not going to give you some sample ideas and sample topics because I don't want to accidentally sway the vote. So just head on over to patreon.com/forever35 and cast your vote. Now on to Ash Perez. By trade, Ash is a writer and producer with uniquely deep understanding of the intersections between tech, traditional broadcast and digital storytelling. Having worked for some of the premier companies in each space base. As a first generation, queer, Cuban, Korean, Filipino person, he brings an organically diverse point of view to all of his endeavors. And on Instagram, Ash describes himself as a badass, hunky dude and a TV writer and an author and a member of the second tri cast and formerly, and this is crucial, of buzzfeed with Dory.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes. All right, here's Ash. Ash, welcome to Forever 35. It's so great to see you.

[Ash Perez]

Thank you. I'm finally here and I'm finally 35, so yay.

[Dory Shafrir]

I know, it's so perfect. Well, as you may know, we start off our conversations with our guests by asking them about a self care practice that they have. So is there something that you do that you would consider self care?

[Ash Perez]

Yeah, My newest one is like single discipline focus. So I'll be watching like lately it's been watching women's basketball unrivaled as the new league. And instead of being on my phone and playing a game or texting and making dinner and doing something, my self care is just like, I'll even text my girlfriend and be like, if she's not in the house with me, I'll be like, hey, I'm going on do not disturb. And I just watch basketball and it is so nice. And like even during commercials and stuff, like I don't go to my phone, I just sit there and try and like be present.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Our attention is such a finite resource too. So just to be able to concentrate it.

[Ash Perez]

Yes. And mine has just gotten so much worse and so bad. And I've noticed, you know, a lot of that started when I Realized that my phone was just making me so sad. And I. I started putting, like, limits on it. Like, you can put time limits on your phone and the apps, and it just gives you cognizance of, like, how often you're on it. And then from there I was like, okay, well, I'm not doing my phone anymore, so what am I going to do? And I started playing Settlers of Catan on my iPad. And then that was. That was. I was playing it too much, and I was like, I have to move my body. So I would only let myself play when I was at the gym and I was walking on the treadmill. So then I started exercising, and then from there I was like, well, what do I do at home? And I read books. So now, like, I've actually. From that one single thing of. Of recognizing that my attention has been splitting, I've actually gotten into a lot more single attention disciplines.

[Elise Hu]

Cool.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know, it's. I. I really admire that, and the way you talk about it makes me want to try it. And I'm also thinking of my husband who has adhd, and he will often have three screens going. And I'm like, what? Like, I. I'm just like, I can't. This is. This is so much happening. And for some reason, he says his brain can kind of, like, handle it all. I don't know.

[Ash Perez]

I have ADHD too, and, like, I'm medicated for and everything. And I also understand that because I either have to have a lot of sensory input and it almost makes it cancel out. Like it's nothing.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes.

[Ash Perez]

Or like, I do the same thing where I'll have, like, a podcast. Be driving. But then I realize, just like anything, like, your brain needs variety. And so I'm like, okay, I do that. So then in order to make sure the part of my brain that needs to concentrate still works, I'm gonna make sure that for fun things, I'm also practicing concentration and not just when I have to drill down, you know?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I love that.

[Dory Shafrir]

So, Ash, like, I don't even know where to begin because I met you, like, I don't know, 11 or 12 years ago, I think. Were you an intern on the travel vertical? Is that what.

[Ash Perez]

I've just gotten hired full time. You're actually the reason that I was able to move to la, because I was in New York at buzzfeed and did not want to be there anymore because I. New York was just such a hard place to live. I'm from California, and I came out here for a visit and you were like, trying to build your team and you're like, I'm going to steal you if you want to come here. And I was like, yes, please. And I had just gotten hired, like three weeks before I got hired from being an intern. And then the Huffington Post tried to scoop me. And then I got given, like, the travel vertical. And then like three weeks later, I was in LA and you were like, come to la. And then from there, Zay scooped me and Andrew Gauthier to the video team. So I just got scooped all over the place.

[Dory Shafrir]

Wow. Okay, so all, all. Everything that happened is, you know, due to me.

[Ash Perez]

Yes. I'm now. I'm now trans because of you.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, it's all because of me. I mean, I like to think you would have butterfly. Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

All to determine exactly what your hair needs to thrive. And it's all backed by clinical studies. I will say my hair has never looked healthier. Like I'm getting. I'm getting comments about it. And I also think it's because they have given me the perfect conditioner formula that actually conditions. Yeah. But doesn't weigh my hair down and doesn't make it look greasy. Which is like a holy grail essentially. Pros also has 500000 five star product reviews. And they have the Prose promise. If you don't love your first order, it's on them. Pros is so confident that you'll love your results that they're offering an exclusive trial offer. 50% off your first hair care subscription order at prose.com/forever35 that's P R O S E.com/forever35 for your free consultation and 50% off your custom routine. Pros.comforever35.

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

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[Ash Perez]

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[Dory Shafrir]

As you alluded you had this sort of, like, meteoric rise through BuzzFeed. You got famous on YouTube. You've had some unbelievable professional and personal highlights. And I guess just for our benefit, the benefit of our listeners, could you just sort of, like, walk us through what those. What your professional and personal life, what the highlights have been in the last 10 years? Because I feel like so much has been overlapping.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Ash Perez]

So professionally, I say most easiest to understand is I'm a writer across all mediums. So I wrote for the Internet, and then I wrote a book, and I wrote for television. Now I just finished writing an audio original for Simon and Schuster. So I've done it across all kinds of mediums. But the kind of consistency is that I tend to write and also that it tends to be funny. A little bit funny and a little bit dark sometimes. And that's partially because of the mixture of what you're saying of personal life. And I don't know if this just happened because of COVID that our. Everyone's personal and professional life mashed together in a way that it didn't before because you literally brought your professional life home. Yeah. But for me, Covid was big because I lost my dad to Covid in 2020 and then started transitioning shortly after that, partially because my dad died. I realized, like, I had so much. I was so tied to the idea of being Daddy's girl. Like, in no other way did I like being a girl. Except for that was my most valuable, like, name is that I was daddy's girl. And when my dad died, I. A lot of those layers kind of just shed themselves. And so. And then I got married. I got divorced. The strike happened. But most recently in the last, like, year, I have started up again in terms of, like, kind of full force making things. I joined back with some friends from buzzfeed, the Try guys, and they're. They have a company called Second Try now, which is very apt for all of us because it is, like, our second try at the Internet. And I just recently released a show called New Guy Tries that's, like, chronicling my journey into manhood. It's a little bit scripted, a little bit unstoppable scripted, just different. And it was also, like, an exploration on grief, honestly, because it ended up being the fact that I didn't have my biggest male role model meant that, like, going into masculinity was that much more difficult. And we just started filming season two this week, so I'm doing that and still writing, still trying to like, you know, develop stuff for tv. Oh, in the middle of that, I. I wrote for a couple of television shows. I developed a pilot with ABC that didn't end up going, but was, like, a really great experience. So truly, a little bit of everything.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. You're in la. We're all project people. And that's what I actually love about being in la. Just on your dad, what did your dad mean to you? Besides just the identity of how you related to him, but also, what do you feel like you have taken from him and his example in terms of manhood?

[Ash Perez]

It's so funny because my dad was, like, constantly trying to. Saying the most trite things to me and these idioms, like, incorrectly, because he was from Cuba. So, like, they were all scrambled and, like, didn't really make any sense, and you would say the wrong thing.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, give us an example. Yeah, like, he'd be like.

[Ash Perez]

Or he'd translate something from Spanish, like, don't spit in the sky because it'll land on your face. And I was like, what? And he's like, that's really profound in Spanish. Like, okay, like, what the fuck? Or, like, he would just. He just. Yeah, he said like. Or he was obsessed with, like, the idea of family and was always like, blood is thicker than water. But. And I just didn't pay attention. Growing up. Like, we were very similar. And for that reason also, like, he taught me how to think like him. Like, my aunts have most recently said that, like, talking to you is like talking to your dad because you think exactly like him. And that's why we would have these big blowout fights, which is what I miss about him the most. Like, in my dreams, I'll argue with him, and then I'll tell my mom, like, oh, I saw dad. We were arguing. And she goes, oh, I'm sorry. I'm like, no, it was great. Like, we were just arguing with each other about stupid stuff. But now he is just in my head all the time. And all that dumb stuff he said, even, like, don't spit in the sky, It'll fall in your face. I'm like, how does that apply to my life? But it does. And, like, the manhood part of it, it's so interesting because, you know, doing that series, it was supposed to be me as a trans man examining masculinity, patriarchy. Yeah. It ended up being, at the same time, this reflection for all my CIS male friends to reflect on their masculinity in turn. Like, we were all reflecting on our dads and brothers and Systems of where. Where did we get this from? In a way that was very, very different than femininity because of patriarchy. Patriarchy, I think, forces most women, because you're in a position where you're made less than for no. Are forced to examine the system that you're a part of in order to succeed in it. You don't necessarily have to do that as a man, particularly the more types of privilege that you have. If you're a white man, if you're able bodied, if you're handsome, if you grew up wealthy, and you're right, there's.

[Elise Hu]

No reflection required because you're considered the default.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah, literally. You're literally to be the default. You never realize you're different or you don't have to like or. Or examine why things are easy for you, you know, and that's no one's fault. It's just something that I recognized in talking across the board to all the men that I talked to. It. It didn't. It wasn't even just like only CIS white men. It was basically all men were like, you know, I've never thought about this, or I've thought about it and I've had no place to say it.

[Dory Shafrir]

I watched the first episode of your series, and there's like so many just, like, moving and profound moments in it. Like when you're in the barbershop with Zach and he's kind of like. You can see the gears turning, you know, as he's reflecting on all this stuff where he's like, oh, like, oh, you know, like this is all connected.

[Ash Perez]

Particularly Zach, in that instance in the barbershop got uncomfortable to the point that they would, like very much try and do a hard redirect because they just, like, they almost didn't realize, like, wait, we're talking. Why are we talking about my childhood and how it was hard for me to grow up and what being in therapy did? You should talk to your barber now. Like, this isn't what barbers talk about.

[Dory Shafrir]

This is supposed to be about your journey.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

It was instinctively uncomfortable.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

But given your journey, you now get to really define in an intentional way what kind of man you want to be, which is really exciting, but also probably overwhelming and disorienting in some ways. I'm just curious what aspects of masculinity and getting to occupy space as a man are your favorite?

[Ash Perez]

It's a fucking. I'll tell you guys, it's a mind fuck. Like having been a woman and a very feminist woman and like. And not having Felt like the default for so long. The biggest thing that's fucking insane is just feeling physically safe wherever I go. Like, my girlfriend is 4 inches taller than me or 3 inches taller than me, and if I'm there, her shorter boyfriend, nobody bothers us. But if she's like, it's. And I know the exact feeling. And I can get into Ubers now and nobody's a fricking weirdo to me and like leering or asking me about my day. I don't have to make up like where I'm going or a fake boyfriend. I get a lot more respect. I like get. I feel like if I say something, people automatically default to listening to me. There's also this weird bro code of the like, dude, man, I got you, bro. Guys just like take care of each other and girls do it too. Like it's like the hey, I got you. You know. But the whole thing is like a social experiment, honestly. And it's infuriating because I know the other side too. And so I don't feel like I can enjoy the privilege in the same way that someone who was born with them can. Because half the time it just makes me so upset that like, if I'm at a bar, I can get a drink really quickly and not have it be dependent on am I pretty or not? Your point of like, what's the good stuff though? The, the, the best thing, aside from just feeling like myself and like, you know, I just went to a wedding recently and like I didn't realize how much, I didn't realize how much of my personality was a facet of the things that were giving me dysmorphia. Like, I didn't like summer, I didn't like the beach. I didn't like exercise. I didn't like going out to bars or nightclubs or weddings or anything like that because I didn't want to be in clothes that made me feel dysmorphic. But I didn't realize that. And now I go to the gym all the time. I love swimming. Like I loved this summer was amazing. And be going to a wedding and getting to just wear what I want to. I was like, oh, I have no anxiety around this. So things that I thought were part of my personality actually aren't.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And just how wonderful to be able to feel at home in your own body, you know, and not alienated from it. I think just being embodied means so much.

[Ash Perez]

It does. And it's something. It goes along with that. The same self care thing I was talking about earlier of like, presence and focus. I don't before I say, like, how I would have defined my 20s is like, I was a. A ghost with a personality or like a walking brain with no body. Like, I just felt completely disembodied, and it was affecting even my brain and my mental capacity in terms of, like, there's a lot of my 20s that I don't remember with the detail that I should, because I think I just was repressing so much. But, you know, grief shed a lot of that away because there's just no illusions under grief. You don't have the energy for anything besides what's real. So, yeah, it's. It's been incredible to be in my body. I told my girlfriend, I was like, am I an athlete? Do I have to identify as an athlete now? Like. Like, I don't need to come out again as something else.

[Dory Shafrir]

You've had all this change in the last five years, but there's probably still more change to come, and we don't know what that change is going to look like.

[Ash Perez]

Even chemically, there's changes that are like, I'm starting to get my beard. My voice is still lowering, like testosterone. I'm still very much in the prepubescent. I have acne because I am just going through a second adolescence right now. So I started writing a book, Lost in Transition, that I was like, I'm going to write a series of essays about what it's been like to be in transition. The things I miss about womanhood, the things that I'm like, learning about manhood. And I put the book down for a little bit and just have even recently picked it up. And within two years, even the way that I feel in my body is so different. So it just shows that growth is constant.

[Dory Shafrir]

So we're just going to take a short break, and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We're curious what it's been like for you to live through all of this really intense personal change so publicly. Like, how are you deciding which aspects of your life to keep more private? What is your thinking or your framework behind this, if there's one at all?

[Ash Perez]

That's a great question. I mean, I accidentally became famous on the Internet for sharing my personality, and I was very lucky. Unlike, you know, a lot of my colleagues became. Including the Try guys, became famous for sharing their unscripted real selves. Yeah, I was much more always doing narrative work, which was helpful to have a barrier. Even though my name was Ashley, my character, it was still a character, you know, So I got to have some sense of separation. But all the social media stuff was very dependent on how much of my personality I shared. You know, people started speculating, like, am I dating some of my co workers? Or what's going on behind the scenes? And I gave it all very freely because the reward was so big. You know, there was a point where we were getting a thousand Instagram followers a day. I just remember I was like, is this ever going to stop? We went in a span of six months from nobody knowing us to having 700,000 followers, which even now, I try and conceptualize what that actually means. And we were getting recognized all the time and couldn't go to Target without getting stopped. And it had simultaneously been my childhood dream. But then also the pressure was just like. And it was an accident. It's not like I was a singer and got famous for being a singer.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ash Perez]

I was a writer who happened to be in videos, who got famous for. I don't even know what, like, be. I honestly, I think just being relatable, like being an awkward Asian girl. And the funny thing too is that, like, my whole personality was about being awkward. And it kept me in this kind of stasis of staying young and awkward, even as I was maturing a little bit. Disney Channel type of vibes.

[Dory Shafrir]

And I feel like a lot of your fans were teens also.

[Ash Perez]

Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, teens. I mean, now it's so funny because I have 22, 23 year olds who come to me are like, oh, my God. I watch every day in middle school, which, like, makes me feel really old. But they. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I had a coworker on the. I worked on the Biden Harris campaign as a senior producer doing some video work. And one of my co workers was like, you were like my middle school idol. And I was like, what? We're coworker. What are you talking about? Right?

[Dory Shafrir]

Like, we're the same age, aren't we?

[Ash Perez]

Yeah, literally. What are you talking about? But now post my dad, like, I'm very public about my grief and I share pretty much every part of that because to me, there's not enough of it and not enough real talk about what grief looks like and how long it lasts and all the, like, random things that nobody talks about because they're like, social taboos. But then, you know, I didn't talk about my divorce much, and that just felt like that's personal to me and.

[Elise Hu]

And another person too.

[Ash Perez]

Exactly, exactly. And I might, you know, I might talk about it later. If I want to. But, like, I, in general, I think, default to sharing what will be helpful to other people because that's the part of my job that I like about being public. So this new guy tries. Even though it was deeply personal and kind of embarrassing and scary to have to do those things in front of camera, I knew that there were people who would benefit from that, including me also.

[Elise Hu]

It was just a delight, too.

[Ash Perez]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

I mean, just a delight to watch you glow up, truly.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, yes, yes. This might be a question that is of interest to me and 10 other people, but as you were talking about the process of getting famous essentially really quickly and sort of by accident, I'm wondering what. Where was Buzzfeed in all of this? Like, was there any sort of support for you guys? Like, I was in a different. At that point, I was in a different division of the company, and I just sort of like, I felt like I was kind of watching it from afar and it was like, oh, that, like, cool buzzfeed video blowing up, you know? But I never really, like, talked to anyone about, like, what was that like? And, like, did the company, Like, I don't know.

[Ash Perez]

No one's asked me that before. And that's a great question. Like, no is the answer. The only support. Like, as we grew, the company tried to grow around us. The problem was that it was built off of, literally, the studio system. Jonah had started reading about the studio system, but, like, didn't really get to the ending. And it ended the exact same way. Like you. The studio system is great because you take young talent who would have otherwise not been able to accomplish that much without having set resources in one place. The problem is that when that talent becomes independent enough to have aspirations beyond what the studio wants them to do and they are constrained to the studio, you. You have, you know, and we are not this at all. But in the studio system, you had Marilyn Monroe making these, like, G level pictures that she didn't want to do anymore and that she didn't need to do. And putting a level of output, like, part of. I think the hope of every artist is that you can graduate to a level where your output can decrease so that you can have more time to put that dream.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. More money for less effort. I mean, I have two life goals, basically. Yeah, More money for less effort and then peaking when I'm 90 and dying.

[Ash Perez]

Exactly. Those are great. Steal those. But, like, I want to be. My dream is to be the equivalent of whatever Adele is of, like, I'm gonna fuck off for Five years and you'll get an album when you want. Or God help us all if we can be Rihanna and just be like, actually, I'm not doing any more music.

[Elise Hu]

Just buy my cosmetics.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah. Even though you guys love it, I'm gonna succeed at this other thing. And so. But buzzfeed support was all just interpersonal, like, where we were really lucky that other YouTubers because, you know, we would go to VidCon with other famous YouTubers and stuff like that. But we were such different people. We worked for a company. We got a W2. We had a 9 to 5. We had bosses, people who stayed, who got famous on YouTube when we were famous, were at home by themselves, editing by themselves, and were not around. People did not have jobs, did not have or not traditional jobs. And it's like, no, we had happy hour. We had, like, we had the structure of a job while being adults and being. Getting to be famous. So we never. Externally, we felt famous in terms of when we would go out. Like, we would walk from the office and go to Chipotle or something. And then we could tell that everyone was like, oh, my God. But when we're co workers, I'm not looking at Quinta or Eugene or anybody. I'm like, can you give me notes on this thing? Like, you know, and we would still have our bosses be like, hey, we start at 9, 9 o'clock, not at 9:30, you know, so it doesn't really matter.

[Dory Shafrir]

I want to go back to the series that you're doing for Second Try, in particular, these very moving moments with your mother, Cookie, in that video. And I mean, I remember. I feel like Cookie came to the office.

[Ash Perez]

Oh, she did. You probably have a toothbrush with my dad's name on it, because my mom was handing out toothbrushes to everyone. My dad was a dentist, so my mom was giving everybody tooth. Precious.

[Dory Shafrir]

Cookie was just, like, so lovely and such a. Such a warm presence. And I just. I loved her moments in that video. And I was. Because she. You can see she's. She's really trying to, you know, be there for you. And it. And it doesn't come naturally to her, but she's. She's really trying. And I was wondering if you could talk about what your relationship with her is like now and how she's kind of been there for you during your whole journey.

[Ash Perez]

Oh, yeah. I mean, my favorite. It's great. It's incredible. But when I. I'll tell you, 15 years ago, when I came out as bisexual, my mom cried for, like, Four years and couldn't deal with it. And, like, you know, I. And I say that not as a knock on my mom, but to remind people that people need time to get accustomed to something that in most cases, queer people have to come out to ourselves first and get the courage to even say this thing that we've been thinking for, who knows, might have been your whole life, and then somebody else who's known you your whole life is hearing this information for the first time and having to reorganize every thing that they think about you. And, you know, it's a different kind of loss. I guess I'd be interested to ask my mom, because queerness in terms of sexuality is more of a loss of the future, and transness is a loss of the past. So it's a different thing that people are dealing with. I got a little lucky. I came out first as queer, then my sibling came out as trans, which, ironically, was not the thing that, like, prompted me to be trans. I just was like, okay, good for you.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ash Perez]

And then. But it helped a lot of the. My parents learning the language and learning. And then I also think that my mom just saw, like, me and was like, oh, my God, you're so much happier. This makes sense. And then now she's been putting together so much stuff from my childhood of like, this is basically who you would have ended up as if we had let you do the things that you were so adamant about as a child. You know, if we had just. I wanted to be a little boy. Like, I had dreams that I was a little boy, and I got. I would get found out as a little girl, and I always wanted to take my shirt off and I wanted to play rough, and I wanted. You know, I wanted all of that. And I very much was against all the outward performances of girlhood. Those fucking socks that I had to wear at church. Those, like, little doilies with the little. Yeah. White. Fucking with those, like, Mary Janes that are shiny. Oh, God, talk about dysphoria. But now my mom's just like, oh, actually, you look and remind me of how you were when you were, like, five.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ash Perez]

Which is so interesting. So in some ways, my mom has been great because she. I think she just has learned, like, as long as your kids are happy, that's a miracle. So let them do whatever they're doing to be happy, as long as it doesn't hurt someone else.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Speaking of other people. And you don't have to say anything profound here. I just. We have this moment to reflect so obviously we're in this time where non cis, non white identities are really under threat and in danger, especially trans children. So how are you making sense of it all and how are you hoping things will turn out?

[Ash Perez]

I'm not making sense of it all. I think it's nonsense. But I think something that's different about me, that has actually bothered a lot of my friends who are like, my allies, not even my trans friends, but like my CIS allies, is that I grew up really Christian. I had a lot of friends and college friends who voted for Trump. And I don't cut people out of my life, or I try not to. I've only cut a few friends out of my life for direct transphobia against me. You know, I got uninvited to my best friend's bachelorette party because she didn't feel comfortable seeing me shirtless. And it was Barbie themed. So it was like, that was difficult. And that felt like a direct thing. That was like, this is hurting me. I'm not going to allow this in my life anymore. But in general, like, I think the only way through this is for everybody to have more empathy. And, you know, it reminds me of. I don't remember the exact Maya Angelou quote, but I remember watching an interview with her where she was talking about, like, the only way to, like, get to the good is to address the evil in yourself and to see the evil in others as something that could be possible in you, because a murderer, a thief, a bigot, you know, homophobia, transphobia. We don't. We are products of how we were raised, what we listened to, where we were born. And I truly don't believe that most people want to be hateful or that most people want to be hurting each other. I think they. We've just grown up in a media environment and because of our phones and because of social media, where it's too easy to believe that that's. That's the truth of what people are like. But it's not like we were all just in the fires. We know what happens when people are really in trouble and people need each other. But I think we just haven't had to engage in that way. And Covid was an emergency that pulled us away from each other. We weren't allowed to run towards each other.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ash Perez]

So the way that I'm dealing with this and my friends know this is like, I don't read the news. I don't. I don't need to know how horrible things are for trans people. It's terrifying to just Be myself and be in my body. I know it's horrible. I know that shit's coming for us. So I tell my friends, like, please don't tell me the news unless it's imminent or important. And, like, if you want to know how to help, like, advocate for me on my behalf when I'm not there. Because the last thing trans people and people of color need right now and disadvantaged women is to be a sounding board for all of the horror that's happening in the world. So I just try and, like, you.

[Elise Hu]

Don'T want to be our pain sponge. I don't want to be anybody's pain sponge.

[Ash Perez]

Exactly. Pain sponge. That's great. But, like, honestly, the way that I'm coping is by making things. Like, by making this second season of New Guy Tries. You know, when the first season came out and the reception was so warm, I had this moment of false, like, oh, my God, is this going to be the new. Are we in a post gender era? Because Will and Harper had just come out and I was like, this is amazing. And then, like, two months later, I was like, oh, no. And I had a second of fear of, like, should we even make this second season? Is this gonna put me in danger? Is it gonna put more trans people in danger? And that's. I had a very active talk with myself and reflection of, like, I need to continue to be me. And I'm going to make this show with just as much joy as I made in the first season, because humanizing people has always been what brings us closer together. And all I can do as a trans person is to put my humanity on display, you know, and then it's your choice whether you want to be a dick or not.

[Elise Hu]

Beautiful. Ash Perez, thank you so much. And tell folks where they can find you.

[Ash Perez]

Oh, gosh. My address is. No, just kidding.

[Elise Hu]

Latitude and longitude, please.

[Ash Perez]

Yeah, I'll give you the satellite pinpoint. If you guys text me, I'll send you a pin. But, yeah, I am. I have a sub stack called what are we even doing here? And you can find me on substack. You can, I guess, find me on Instagram, but I'm trying to not be on it. But mostly you can pay attention to second try. Watch the first season. There's a free trial right now. You can watch the first season and then when the second season comes out, like, the most helpful thing you can do to have this media happen is to watch it and promote it and tell people about it. So. So thank you guys for giving me this space.

[Dory Shafrir]

Thank You.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you for coming on.

[Dory Shafrir]

This is really, really great. Oh, it was really great for me to talk to Ash, just personally, because I haven't, you know, sat down and chatted with them in literally years. So it's nice to just, like, catch up and just talk about everything that he's been through, like, the last 10 years. So.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, no, I can tell, too. It's nice when we have some of our friends on, because there's that warmth and familiarity, and I think it really comes through in the tape, so.

[Dory Shafrir]

Totally, totally awesome.

[Elise Hu]

All right. Intention zone.

[Dory Shafrir]

Intention zone. Elise, how. How is your sleep hygiene these days?

[Elise Hu]

My sleep score average has reached an 83, which is very good for me. Yes, yes. I mean, I can very rarely get into the 90s because I think you have to sleep, like, 14 hours to get into the 90s. But I am. I'm averaging in 83, which is pretty good for me. And I'm just trying to be better about it. But, you know, I do get, like, thrown off sometimes. Like when Issa decides to come up in the middle of night to complain that Luna is snoring and that she wants to sleep somewhere else. And I'm like, well, where is that gonna be? Because I don't want it to be with me.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

It'll disrupt my sleep hygiene.

[Dory Shafrir]

Do they share a room?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, the younger two share a room. And so she. But. So she ended up wanting to go to the back house. The Hugh hideaway. And then I was like, no, I'm not getting up at, like, three in the morning to walk you to the back house.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right?

[Ash Perez]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

No.

[Elise Hu]

And then you hear Rob going, do you want me to stalker? And I'm like, well, I guess I.

[Dory Shafrir]

Was like, I want her just to.

[Elise Hu]

Go back to bed and live with her snoring sister. But fine, whatever. Anyway, so it is better. And then this week, I have noticed that I've been really neglecting Oscar the dog. Oscar the Golden. So this week, my intention is to go on some long walks with Oscar because he really needs them. He's a big dog, and if he doesn't walk, he starts getting into stuff. Like, he starts looking for fertilizer in the yard, and, like, it could just be very dangerous. He started trying to knock over the ant farm that we recently got. Oh. So I'm gonna. Long walks with Oscar is gonna be good for him, but also good for me. All right, what about you? I know you are good about going on long walks with Henry and with Beau.

[Dory Shafrir]

Mostly with Beau, but Henry. Yeah, Henry doesn't always want to come on walks with Beau, but sometimes he does. And of course, if Matt's not here, he has to come on walks with Beau. I also, I was. You know how, like, Reddit will show you, like, subreddits that you don't subscribe to that they think you'll be interested in?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, like Blake Lively stuff.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Well, so they've been like, occasionally the. There's like a dog training, one that comes up, but it's like, it's like some specific type of dog training. I forget exactly what it is. But anyway, I had, I had always said that a lot of times, like, I'll just let Beau, like, lead the way. Like wherever his nose takes him, we'll go. Like, I'll, I'll, I'll block off that time and we can just do whatever. And I learned through this subreddit that there's an actual name for that, which is sniff walks.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

And they're like, really.

[Elise Hu]

Ever heard of this?

[Dory Shafrir]

They're really important for their mental health. Apparently, allowing your dog to go on sniff walks is vital for their overall mental well being. The act of sniffing provides mental stimulation and enrichment as it activates their brain and engages their senses. It's like solving puzzles or reading a captivating book for them.

[Ash Perez]

Whoa.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. I need.

[Dory Shafrir]

So, all right, so it's less even about, you know, Beau's kind of old at this point. Like, he's probably almost 10. We don't know exactly how old he is. And so the amount of like, actual physical exercise he needs is like, not that high anymore. As opposed to Oscar, who I'm sure needs like a lot of physical, you know, stimulation. But he does need that mental stimulation. And I noticed that, like, he is calmer, like when he gets those longer walks where he can take just sort of meander. And like, I don't have an agenda. And he's just like, he has. And like, he often has like a, like a route that he wants to take and he's like, leading me on that route, you know, so I'm like, all right, Bo. Anyway, sorry, just long aside about. About sniff walks and dogs. That's a great, that's.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's a great insight. Okay. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay. So last week my intention was just like, rainy day stuff. I did, I did do like an indoor peloton workout yesterday when it was raining. Yeah. Trying to just like, keep the old mental health up when I can't go outside. And I know, you know, having lived the first, you know, 35 years of my life in the Northeast. I am well aware that it is a privilege to only have a few days of the year where I can't go outside. But now I live in Southern California. I pay a lot to live in Southern California. So I'm like, all right, I want to. Yeah, I want to live that life. Okay, so this week there's some stuff in our house that we have just put off getting rid of and I finally made a bulk item pickup request through the 311 app. So we're getting rid of a bunch of stuff this week and I want to hopefully get rid of a bunch more stuff next week. So this is like, amazing. I cleared off this, like this like, table of junk in the driveway. Like, I'm just like trying to just like get, get stuff out of here because I feel like it is, like, just bad to have it around. It's making me crazy. So that's my intention for this week.

[Elise Hu]

Cool. All right, we'll check in next week on this.

[Dory Shafrir]

Okay. All right, everybody. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks for listening.

[Elise Hu]

We'll talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Bye. Learning new things makes me just feel accomplished. And I don't know about you, but I like feeling proud of myself and my accomplishments, which is why I love taking new classes on Masterclass where I can learn from the best to become my best with honestly not a ton of effort. It's available on my phone. Lessons are around 10 minutes each and if I'm busy with my eyes or my hands, I can do the audio only lessons. When in history, has it ever been easier to learn something new than it is today? Speaking of history, there's a great class that has lessons on black history, freedom and love from influential black voices. You must listen or watch the lesson the Redeemer Constitution taught by constitutional law expert Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, the creator of the phrases intersectionality, critical race theory and say Her Name. Yeah, it's full of thought provoking, eye opening history that is often brushed over if it's taught at all. Or watch Angela Davis, the Black Liberation movement icon, discuss the connection between black women and blues music in a beautiful way that will change the way you listen to blues forever. The time to start your learning journey is now and you should do it with Masterclass. Right now, Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Forever 35 that's 15% [e-mail] Forever 35 all.

[Elise Hu]

Right folks, imagine a world where the day ends, you're done with work, and then you're excited to cook your dinner. HelloFresh makes this a reality, especially with their lineup of prep and bake meals which come together with minimal mess and only five minutes of prep. So your oven does most of the work. Not you, you. It's easy to find time to eat well with 50 wholesome, hassle free meals to choose from. Door what have you cooked recently from HelloFresh?

[Dory Shafrir]

My family will always eat HelloFresh, which is like, you know, number one on my list of things that I need for a good dinner. So that's always helpful. I recently made the crispy Parmesan chicken which is really yummy.

[Elise Hu]

Sounds good.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, you bake the chicken and it doesn't get dried out. It's really delicious. And it comes with garlic, scallion couscous and some like yummy lemony roasted carrots. Even my son will eat the carrots. I'm like, yes, HelloFresh.

[Elise Hu]

That's a win. That's a win. Even if you don't have time to cook a meal every night, HelloFresh still has you covered because their new ready made meals go from the fridge to your fork in just 3 minutes. Same high quality ingredients and restaurant worthy flavor you expect from HelloFresh just with none of the work.

[Dory Shafrir]

Get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for life with America's number one meal [e-mail] hellofresh podcast one item per box with active subscriptions. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals just go to hellofresh.com hellofresh podcast.