Episode 349: Bird-Watching, Pet Mediums, and Sticker Charts with Annie Hartnett

Summary

Episode 349: Bird-Watching, Pet Mediums, and Sticker Charts with Annie Hartnett

Release Date: April 21, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 349 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into an engaging conversation with acclaimed author Annie Hartnett. This episode explores Annie's unique self-care practices, the inspirations behind her latest novel, and the importance of community through accountability workshops. Rich with humor and heartfelt insights, the discussion offers listeners a comprehensive look into the creative and personal lives of the guests.

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Personal Updates and Opening Chats

Before introducing their guest, Doree and Elise share personal anecdotes, setting a warm and relatable tone for the episode.

• Elise's Middle School Dance Experience ([03:35] - [07:12]): Elise recounts her observations from her daughter’s first middle school dance. She notes, “the girls were clustered in groups of girls and the boys in groups of boys,” highlighting the social dynamics and the ‘sneaker ball’ trend where girls paired dresses with sneakers. This reflection leads to a humorous exchange about how the current generation dresses and interacts differently compared to past generations.

• Elise’s Dog Crisis ([07:16] - [12:11]): Elise shares a distressing experience involving her dog, Oscar, who swallowed a large stuffed toy. She describes the ordeal of managing Oscar’s health emergency while dealing with personal disappointments, including missing a concert she was excited about. At [09:25], she vents, “I couldn't go because I was in the emergency room again with my dumb dog,” showcasing the challenges of pet ownership and the emotional toll it can take.

---

Introducing Annie Hartnett

At [20:37], Doree introduces the episode’s guest, Annie Hartnett, highlighting her impressive literary accomplishments:

“Her books have, like, won a gajillion awards... 'Unlikely Animals' was one of the best books of 2022, according to the Washington Post and Book List.”

Annie’s background as a novelist with accolades such as the Julie Award and the Howe Prize for fiction establishes her as a distinguished figure in the literary world.

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Self-Care Practices

The conversation shifts to self-care, with Annie discussing her personal routines and challenges in maintaining balance between physical and creative pursuits.

• Weightlifting as Self-Care ([20:58] - [21:57]): Annie explains her commitment to weightlifting, inspired by author Amy Tan. She shares:

  “I have started lifting weights... Amy Tan... said, if I'm going to keep writing, I need to be strong because you spend so much time sitting.”

  This practice underscores Annie’s dedication to maintaining physical health to support her writing endeavors.

• Writing and Sticker Charts ([21:57] - [24:31]): Annie reveals her innovative approach to writing through sticker charts, a method inspired by her daughter’s potty training routine. She says:

  “I made myself a sticker chart and wrote 'Annie's Potty Chart'... crossed out 'potty' and wrote 'novel' at the top.”

  This playful yet effective strategy helps her stay motivated and track her progress, demonstrating her ability to blend parenting techniques into her creative process.

---

Annie’s New Book: The Road to Tender Hearts

Doree invites Annie to discuss her latest novel, "The Road to Tender Hearts," providing listeners with an insight into its storyline and themes ([24:55] - [26:12]).

• Synopsis: Annie outlines the plot, centered around PJ Holiday, an older man grappling with alcoholism and hoarding, who discovers his high school friend has passed away. Driven by unresolved feelings, PJ embarks on a road trip to reconnect with his past and confront his present challenges. The journey becomes more complex as he gains custody of his great niece and nephew and is joined by a cat with the uncanny ability to predict death.

• Themes of Second Chances and Connection ([40:23] - [41:43]): Doree and Annie delve into the enduring nature of high school crushes and their representation in the novel. Annie reflects on her own middle school crush, illustrating how these early emotions shape one's understanding of love and connection. She articulates:

  “PJ is looking for a way to connect with his younger self and trying to get back to when everything felt possible... the novel is really about second chances in many ways.”

  This discussion highlights the novel’s exploration of nostalgia, redemption, and the human desire for reconnection.

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Exploring Themes of Death and Animals in Annie’s Works

Annie shares her fascination with incorporating themes of death and animals into her storytelling, linking them to personal experiences and broader existential questions ([26:37] - [36:00]).

• Personal Influences: Annie discusses how her father's heart attack in 2016 profoundly impacted her writing. She states:

  “Ever since then, I've been waiting for... I know he's gonna die someday... always wondering, what if this is the last time I talked to him.”

  This personal grief informs her narrative style, blending humor with poignant reflections on mortality.

• Animal-Human Relationships ([33:38] - [36:00]): The conversation touches on the deep connections between humans and animals, inspired by Annie’s mother’s bird-watching and unique interpretations of bird songs. Annie elaborates:

  “Animals are really intelligent in ways that we aren't. I love collecting stories about the way animals interact with people.”

  She shares anecdotes, such as a therapy cat named Oscar who could predict deaths, illustrating the mystical and comforting roles animals play in human lives.

---

Accountability Workshops and Building Community

Annie transitions to discussing the accountability workshops she co-founded with fellow writer Tessa, emphasizing their role in fostering a supportive community for writers ([42:05] - [50:36]).

• Origin and Growth: Starting as a mutual support system after Annie’s first book and Tessa’s memoir, the workshops have expanded to include around 80 members. Annie explains:

  “We met every two weeks on Zoom to update each other on what's going on... We added two writers to our mix, Rufi Thorpe and Claire Beams.”

• Structure and Purpose: The workshops emphasize accountability, community support, and creative collaboration. They include regular meetings, a book club, and access to Annie and Tessa for personalized support. Annie notes:

  “Everyone has a contract... if you need to talk something through, you make an appointment.”

  This structured yet flexible approach caters to writers with diverse needs, promoting sustained creativity and productivity.

• Impact and Philosophy: Annie shares her belief in the importance of external structures for creative success, aligning with philosophies from thought leaders like Gretchen Rubin. She comments:

  “Accountability groups are not our tools, they’re not training wheels... you need a partner of some kind.”

  This perspective underscores the necessity of community and accountability in overcoming creative blocks and achieving personal goals.

---

Book Club and Literary Discussions

The episode also explores the dynamic of their book club, highlighting current and past selections that engage the group deeply ([50:36] - [53:33]).

• Current and Past Reads: Annie mentions their upcoming book club selection, Lydia Yukonovic’s memoir, "Beyond the Waves," and reflects on previous picks like Miranda July’s "All Fours." She remarks:

  “So it's a lot to ask of a person I didn't really know, but she had opened the ask for... we're like this is what more writers need.”

• Community Engagement: The book club fosters rich discussions and diverse perspectives, enhancing the overall experience for members. Annie highlights the enthusiasm and participation, noting how certain books, like "All Fours," sparked lively debates and engagement.

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Closing Remarks and Future Plans

As the episode concludes, Doree and Elise share their personal intentions for the week, including Doree’s planning for her son's birthday and Elise’s goals for attentive family time. Annie discusses her upcoming book events, emphasizing her love for connecting with readers during her tours.

• Event Announcements: Annie expresses excitement about her scheduled events in Portland, Seattle, New England, and North Carolina, encouraging listeners to join her on this road trip themed around her latest book.

• Final Thoughts: The hosts extend heartfelt thanks to Annie for her insightful contributions and encourage listeners to engage with her work and the accountability workshops. Doree urges booksellers and those in publishing to consider hosting Annie, highlighting the mutual benefits of such collaborations.

---

Notable Quotes

• Elise Hu on Oscar’s Incident ([05:35]):

  “I couldn't go because I was in the emergency room again with my dumb dog.”

• Annie Hartnett on Weightlifting ([20:58]):

  “I have started lifting weights... Amy Tan... said, if I'm going to keep writing, I need to be strong because you spend so much time sitting.”

• Doree Shafrir on Reading Ruts ([24:31]):

  “If you are in a reading rut and need to be unlocked, read Annie's Road to Tender Hearts.”

• Annie Hartnett on Accountability ([42:05]):

  “Everyone has a contract... if you need to talk something through, you make an appointment.”

• Annie Hartnett on Animals ([36:00]):

  “Animals are really intelligent in ways that we aren't. I love collecting stories about the way animals interact with people.”

---

Conclusion

Episode 349 of Forever35 offers an enriching blend of personal stories, literary insights, and practical advice on maintaining creativity and well-being. Through Annie Hartnett’s experiences and the hosts' engaging dialogue, listeners gain valuable perspectives on balancing life’s challenges with creative pursuits, the magic of animal companionship, and the power of community support in achieving personal and professional goals.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Sun'S out, the air's warming and the itch to travel is returning. I am headed to Mexico. I'm headed to Cabo in a couple weeks and I'm preparing myself and the family with a first class quality suitcase at an economy price tag from Quince. Ava is going to get a baby pink colored suitcase. It is the carry on kid suitcase, 18 inch. It's really going to upgrade our trip. And then you can treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve too with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices like lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops. I have one. I love it. And comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quint's works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quince. Go to quince.com forever35 for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com forever35 foreign.

[Dory Shafrir]

Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Welcome back.

[Dory Shafrir]

Welcome back to the show. We have a great show for you today.

[Elise Hu]

We do. We're so excited you're here. We are helping welcome new listeners to the show because I learned that this is one of the tricks of Mel Robbins, who has now surpassed Joe Rogan in the podcast listener rankings. And one of the things she does really well is welcome new listeners. And so, hello, this is a full length Monday episode where we interview someone of note or lots of writers, you know, lots of other luminaries like we do, musicians and comedians, but often a lot of writers. And today we're going to have a great writer on the show named Annie Hartnett who we will introduce after we catch up because we have some catching up to do.

[Dory Shafrir]

We do. You know, we. Well, Elise, you just pointed out that we have not, like, fully discussed your daughter's middle school dance that you.

[Elise Hu]

First middle school dance. Yeah, first middle school dance. I was in charge of food sales, so I wasn't inside the gym where all of the dancing goes down, but I was just outside where I could observe some of the comings and goings and the social patterns of these kids. And I will tell you, I do think a lot of the ways of middle school are exactly the same in that the girls were clustered in groups of girls and the boys were clustered in groups of boys and ne'er the twine shall meet until they do, where the eighth graders were more flirty with each other and there were more couples. And I saw some, like quick pecks here and there as they were walking in and out and some hand holding. But my daughter's in sixth grade and she was just in her group of very dressed up friends. The girls looked super cute. They were all like in their fits and with sneakers because it was the sneaker ball, so everybody could wear sneakers, which is how I think the Gen Alphas are dressing anyway. Like, dresses with sneakers. And they looked all. I mean, they curled their hair, they wore some, like, makeup. They like pulled it together for this dance. Whereas I'm sure they coordinated outfits amongst themselves. And the boys just rolled in in dirty sweats and a baseball cap most of the time. Like, nobody, none of the boys tried. And I was just like, ugh. And I sent a photo, like an anonymized photo of like the boys group and the girls group to a mom friend of mine whose son went. And she was like, well, I guess girls should just get used to the fact that they have to do most of the labor in a heterosexual relationship early.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my God.

[Annie Hartnett]

Oh.

[Elise Hu]

So that was kind of funny. And then there were some songs. There's no slow dancing now. I remember when I was in middle school, like, there was all this anxiety around slow dancing because, you know, some kids, some, the chaperones were worried, like, the kids would be just up on each other and too close. And then you actually had to separate couples. And then the kids were worried about, like, who they were gonna slow dance with. And I don't think they're slow dances anymore. Like, I didn't notice the music ever changing beyond, you know, like, beyond like big hits that everybody can dance to. So it was a lot of, like, group dancing. The kids, I guess, since they spend so much less time in real life, like hanging out in real life with unsupervised playtime as. As we did when we were growing up, I think, like, socially they're different. There's certainly, certainly like interacting. There's less co ed interaction than I expected.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Elise Hu]

Or at least less than I was hoping to get to catch just as a. Right as a parent, interloper person.

[Dory Shafrir]

There's probably a lot less Humpty dance than there was at my eighth grade dance.

[Elise Hu]

We were really excited about, like, Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit. That was like a huge song in my middle school years. It was like the beginning of grunge or like squarely in the middle of grunge. And that's not. That wasn't it. Kendrick Lamar was huge at this dance. Obviously we're in LA and a lot of Tik Tok songs. All the Tik Tok songs got everybody out on the dance floor.

[Dory Shafrir]

Of course. Of course.

[Annie Hartnett]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

But I haven't even updated you door on my real crisis with one of my children. My dog child swallowed another foreign object.

[Dory Shafrir]

No Oscar, wtf?

[Elise Hu]

So I was away in Vancouver at the Big Ted and my parents are staying at my house. And my mom texted me a day before I was supposed to come home with a photo of like, Oscar's barf. And he had barfed up a gigantic stuff stuffed toy. Again, like this one, he eats stuffed toys and he eats them without chewing. He just swallows them. He just inhales them. And this one was like a pizza, a pizza stuffy that was the size of a tennis ball. And so it was really significant. And he managed to barf that up. But then the next morning, she was like, he's not eating anything. He's lethargic. And when he does try to eat, he just regurgitates no. So I'm just like, oh, God, it's happening again. Listeners, longtime listeners, probably know that around New Year's when I came home from an international trip, we. Oscar had to go through major abdominal surgery to remove a squishmallow from his intestinal tract. And so I. I was really triggered. And, like, I did not move my flight up or anything because I was already scheduled to come home on Friday afternoon. I landed Friday afternoon, gave the girls, the human children, hugs, and then promptly took Oscar to the emergency room. And I was really excited because I had tickets on Friday night to Morgan J. My favorite singing comedian at the Wiltern. And I had to just eat the cost of that ticket and couldn't go because I was in the emergency room again with my dumb dog. No, I didn't even text you about it because I knew you were away. And, like, I was also just like. So I was so pissed. Like, just angry, you know, frustrated, angry, disappointed. Like, exhausted.

[Dory Shafrir]

I was so annoyed. Oh, my God.

[Elise Hu]

So I'm sitting in the er, the vet emergency room waiting room, and I felt like I was in an episode of the Pit because it was very crowded. And I've been watching the Pit, which is my favorite new show on television. Thank you, listeners who brought it up and suggested it in our Patreon chat. And the Pit's waiting room is always crowded. It's, like, teeming with people. And they're trying to triage the cases from the waiting room so they can move you out of the waiting room. And I was. It was sort of like that in the vet emergency room. And so I had to wait for hours before he could get an X ray. I eventually just left because I was like, just call me whenever. Because they. They were able to take him back. And I was just like, just call me whenever you have a scan. And they were like, yep. They called me about 10, 10:30 at night and they said, yep, another foreign body. It's round. We don't know if he's going to pass it. We're going to have to hospitalize him overnight. And tomorrow morning. No, we will call you if he doesn't pass it. And I called Rob and I was like, I'm not. I don't think I can go through this again. He's in. He was in Phoenix for Passover, and he was like, well, I guess I'll just pay for it because you don't seem like in the right place mental state. He's like, have them send me the link, the payment link. And I'LL just pay for it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my God.

[Elise Hu]

Because I was just like, I can't do this. I can't go through this again. I don't want to pay for this. Like, I was just really overwhelmed. And then fast forward 12 hours, Rob calls me because I guess I must have missed the call from the emergency vet. And he was like, really good news. He passed the object into his colon overnight. So we were able to avoid surgery for now. And now he's not allowed to have anything, any stuffy toy. He's, like, done with stuffy toys, period. Because these ones that he consumed weren't explicitly his toys. Toys. But he's able to. He's able to swallow, like, dog toys. I just feel so tapped out by this whole thing. I couldn't even tell you. I was just like, thanks. Thanks. Moving on. We do have a very exciting show in store for you. And the author's road trip book that's out now features a psychic cat.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And I. You know what? I. I'm a cat person now. Like, I prefer my cat to my dog. So if I had to choose.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

If I had to choose, like, my cat Abe, he's given. He's never. He's hasn't gone to the emergency room once. Not once. How many times has Oscar gone in the last six months? Twice. And the first time it cost $19,000. So I'm kind of like, I love cats.

[Dory Shafrir]

You're over it.

[Elise Hu]

Bring me all your cats.

[Annie Hartnett]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, my God. Well, Elise, let's introduce our guest, who I have known for eight years. I think our first novels came out around the same time. Her novel was Rabbit Cake. My novel was Startup, and she did a book event with me in Maine, which was awesome. And we've kind of stayed in touch. And I've been doing her accountability workshop, and she's just wonderful. And her new book is called the Road to Tender Hearts. And I really, really loved it. And I think it sort of got me out of a reading rut that I was in. So if you are in a reading rut and you need to be unlocked, read Annie's Road to Tender Hearts. Her books have, like, won a gajillion awards. Her second book, Unlikely Animals, was one of the best books of 2022, according to the Washington Post and Book List. It won the Julie Award, Howe Prize for fiction. It was long listed for the Joyce Carol Oates Prize. Rabbit Cake was one of Kirkus's best books of 2017. It, you know, et cetera, et cetera. She has accolades out the wazoo. I found out she grew up in the next town over and now she lives in Massachusetts with her husband, her daughter and her dog. We didn't discuss if her dog has eaten any foreign objects, but hopefully not. Hopefully not.

[Elise Hu]

Hopefully not. It would be very triggering for me.

[Dory Shafrir]

It would be very triggering. And before we take a break and get to Annie, just a reminder that we are doing a listener survey. The link to that is in the show notes. It is in our link tree which is a link in our bio on our Instagram. It's also on our website. So please respond to that survey. It would really help us out. Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links over there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at february35podcast. Join our [e-mail] forever35 we have a ton of bonus content over there. Our favorite products are at Shopmy Us Forever 35. It's our favorite products. And then also Rachel Goodwin, makeup artist of the stars who comes on our show every quarter. And we have a shelf of her favorite products over there. We have our [e-mail] Newsletter and last but definitely not least, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390. Your message may be read or heard on an upcoming episode of the show and email us at forever35podcastmail.com. All right, we are going to take a short break and then we will come back and chat with Annie.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back. Foreign the sun's out, the air is warming and the itch to travel is returning. I am headed to Mexico. I'm headed to Cabo in a couple weeks and I'm preparing myself and the family with a first class quality suitcase at an economy price tag. From Quince, Ava is going to get a baby pink colored suitcase. It is the Carry on kids suitcase. 18 inch. It's really going to upgrade our trip. And you can treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve too with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices like lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops. I have one. I love it. And comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part, all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing. Practices and premium fabrics and finishes. For your next trip. Treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quince. Go to quints.com forever35 for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q u I n c.comforever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Annie Hartnett]

Hey, you know what would make your.

[Dory Shafrir]

Customer service help desk way better?

[Annie Hartnett]

Dumping it and then switching to intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Annie Hartnett]

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[Dory Shafrir]

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[Annie Hartnett]

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[Dory Shafrir]

Service rep hiring treadmill Fin by Intercon.

[Annie Hartnett]

The leading customer service AI agent now available on every help desk.

[Dory Shafrir]

Annie, welcome to Forever35. We are so excited to have you on the show.

[Annie Hartnett]

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Well, we start off by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So we are wondering, is there anything that you do that you would consider self care?

[Annie Hartnett]

Self care? I have started lifting weights, which is my. I've become really dedicated to it, but I have not yet figured out how to be dedicated to working out and be dedicated to writing. I go through these periods where I do one or the other really well.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, interesting.

[Annie Hartnett]

But so I'm really inspired by. Amy Tan is like a super weightlifter. She like got really into it to keep up.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I had no idea.

[Annie Hartnett]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Google her arms. She's. She's very inspirational. And she did it because she said, you know, I have to if I'm going to keep writing, I need to be strong because you spend so much time sitting. So I've gotten Kind of serious about it.

[Elise Hu]

What is your weightlifting practice and what is your writing practice?

[Annie Hartnett]

So I work out three days a week. I hired a trainer to help me, which is very expensive, but so far it's actually been very worth it. So she's been helping me and she says the best thing for like, perimenopause menopause is lifting heavy weights. So I have just thought that, you know, if I can start doing that and my writing routine practice is I kind of go through phases like consistency. It's not quite fair to say that I'm not consistent, because I am consistent. It's just that I need new. I need new attack methods. Like, I can't just say I'm going to write at 5am every day for the rest of my life. That would never work for me. I'm like too rebellious a person. So I'm always coming up with new routines and new strategies. I'm an ideas person, so I can be really consistent for a while because I'm like, this is the idea that'll fix my life forever. So I've done all sorts of different things. I'll do sticker charts. So I'm actually, I am doing a sticker chart right now that Dori knows about, where you write one sentence a day for 100 days and you give yourself a sticker. And I started doing the sticker chart. I have a five year old, she'll be six this summer. And she had a potty training chart and getting stickers. And I was like, these are so motivational for her. I am just as simple a being. So I made myself a sticker chart and I wrote Annie's potty chart and then crossed out potty and wrote novel at the top. And it made me laugh every time I looked at it. And I gave myself a sticker and at the beginning of a project, which is really hard for me. So the weightlifting is coming easier to me than the novel writing right now.

[Elise Hu]

Can I ask for both of you all who do sticker charts? Are these sentences in order or are they just like nicely crafted sentences?

[Annie Hartnett]

Mine are in order.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Annie Hartnett]

I. I don't think I could do it out of order. I mean, I guess I could write scene. Like, sometimes when I'm deeper in a project, I will move around and hop around and do different scenes. But right now I'm just trying to, like, inch forward until I really. I'm still kind of searching for my idea. So they're in order, but they're okay.

[Dory Shafrir]

Annie, we want to talk about your new book, the Road to Tender Hearts, which is just delightful.

[Annie Hartnett]

Thank you.

[Dory Shafrir]

Let's just. Let's just start by. Do you want to just tell us about your new book for the benefit of our listeners who probably have not had a chance to read it? And then I have a few questions.

[Annie Hartnett]

This book is about an older man named P.J. holiday who is reading the obituaries of his hometown paper, and he comes across an obituary of his high school friend. And his high school friend died, and he realizes that if that man is dead, then the woman that that man married is single again. So he decides to get in the car and drive from Massachusetts to Arizona to win her back. Or, you know, he had a crush on her in high school, but before he can leave, he ends up. He doesn't know about his great niece and his great nephew who live in the same town, and there's a tragedy. So he ends up with custody of them, decides that he wants to, like, kids need a vacation, so he decides to take them on the road trip, too. His daughter ends up coming with them because she's worried about these kids. Two children in her father's care. And also on board the car trip is a cat who can predict death. So that's the elevator pitch. And then.

[Elise Hu]

And then, technically, PJ can't drive, right?

[Annie Hartnett]

Technically, PJ should not drive. He is a alcoholic hoarder who has three DUIs to his name, so he's. He. His license has been suspended for the past eight years, so he shouldn't be driving with children in the car.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Annie Hartnett]

And it's funny. It's a comedy, so it is funny.

[Dory Shafrir]

I have noticed that animals and dead or dying parents play a large role in all of your books. And I'd love for you to just kind of talk a little bit about why you're kind of drawn to these themes.

[Annie Hartnett]

Yeah. Kind of different reasons for each book. Although, like, the first book is about rabbit Cake is about a little girl whose mother drowns while sleepwalking. And then the fallout from that. And then the second book, unlikely Animals, is about a dad who's dying from brain disease, and his daughter comes home and is trying to. She was born with slight magic healing powers, so she's kind of expected to come home after dropping out of med school and heal him. I was writing from the children's perspective from the first book, so I was like, what is your worst fear when you're a kid? Is losing a parent. And I wanted to explore grief from a kid's perspective. And then the other books were Much more about me being older and knowing that my parents are not going to be around. My parents are still alive, but kind of coming to terms. My dad had a heart attack in 2016, right before my first book came out. And so kind of, I think ever since then I've been kind of waiting for. I know he's gonna die someday. But it's something that I kind of. Every time I hang up the phone with him, I. And this is sort of insane, but I think, like, what if this is the last time I talked to him? So I always like, try to say something nice. I am always trying to solve problems. Like I give my characters problems that are. That I try to solve for them. Like that's the whole thing that they struggle with. There's a problem that they want to solve which most novels are about. But I am trying to solve the problem of death. Some people just are morbid, and I'm just a morbid person. I've always like, joked about things. I have kind of a twisted sense of humor. So sometimes it's like what makes me laugh is the morbid thing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Annie Hartnett]

And then animals are more like what gives me reassurance about the world. So it's like kind of what I'm afraid of. And then what, what like, where I'm able to find meaning. Even if, like I find a lot of meaning right now in like the birds in my backyard so that I can consistently feed the birds and I can watch them from my window and I can care for something and I can feel like I can pick flowers to put in my garden that will like be good for the bees. I can like work on how to make a backyard habitat like those to feel like I'm making some sort of positive difference in the world. It's like, you know, there's so many things I don't control that. I mean, I guess that's another self care is like taking care, trying to make my backyard a habitat for animals, which is easier to do if you live in the middle of nowhere like I do.

[Elise Hu]

My mom has become a birder recently, I guess post retirement. And you know, every once in a while I'll go on like bird photo walks with her. And it's really astounding how much patience and observation and like curiosity that you have to have or just be open to as a birder because you're spending so much time just like waiting, you know, or observing. And there is something like kind of almost spiritual about it. It's really quite lovely.

[Annie Hartnett]

Yeah. My mom is a Super bird watcher too. She's been a bird watcher, actually since she was a kid, which is rare. I feel like we all end up bird watchers after a certain age. But she was a bird watcher. Like, she had a life list when she was a kid. And so when I was a kid, she used to, you know, she'd wa. Wake me up at like 4 or 5am to go owling and like go hear the owls in the woods. And she used to take me to. There's a cemetery in. In Massachusetts, Mount Auburn Cemetery. And it's famous because there's a couple famous people buried there. And it's. I think it's like America's oldest cemetery. That's like a green cemetery, not a graveyard. But she used to take me there to look at the birds and so that like life and death together, like the animal, like, it's. Yeah, I guess that was when my childhood is graves next to looking at the birds and finding that we're here to look at the birds. We also used to listen in the car to like, other kids sometimes had to like. My friend had to always listen to npr, which she thought was boring, but in our car we'd have to listen to bird calls.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Annie Hartnett]

So she would play like. They play like the actual bird song and then they play the human pronouncing the bird song. So like, everyone knows like, Chickadee Dee Dee is like. But there's lots of them.

[Elise Hu]

Does everyone know that?

[Annie Hartnett]

Well, everyone. Okay. I feel like most people know that a lot of birds are named the things like killdeer is named a killdeer because they say killdeer. Killdeer.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Annie Hartnett]

So you'd hear like the actual bird song and then the way that human pronounces it. Or like owls would go, who cooks for you? So that when you can listen, you can hear. Okay, what am I. I'm trying to hear the words that the birds are saying so I could go on about this. Even. My mom took me to California to drop me off when I was. I was. It was like my first job out of college and she went and took me out to move me out there. And it was in the woods. It was this like, sort of camp slash outdoor school. So it was in the woods and she was just listening and I was like, oh, what birds do you hear? And she goes, it's like we landed in another country and everyone's speaking a different language.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Annie Hartnett]

And I was like, oh, that's so. You're so weird.

[Elise Hu]

So she's not just a bird watcher, she's also kind of a bird interpreter. She can interpret.

[Annie Hartnett]

Super bird watcher. She's getting an award this, this month, so.

[Elise Hu]

That's amazing. You need to put that on your bio. I had no idea.

[Annie Hartnett]

I know, I know. I should. My award winning birdwatcher mother.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, we have stumbled on something new.

[Dory Shafrir]

This actually kind of leads into my next question because, you know, I know that you like, talk to a pet medium after your dog Harvey died and the animals in your book. Do books do seem like invested with these sort of human, supernatural slash supernatural powers. And I'm wondering, like, what is your take on this sort of like animal, human relationship, communication, understanding? Like, do you think that they do have this understanding that we're sort of not aware of? I'm also just like obsessed with pancakes. The cat, like, he's, he's so cool.

[Annie Hartnett]

Well, the cat. So the cat in the book, it's like no secret because it's in the first chapter that he can predict death. And he's based on this cat, Oscar, who is a cat in Rhode island who like, still occasionally, like, you'll, he'll pop up on social media, although he died a while ago. But for 10 years he was a therapy cat in a Rhode island nursing home and he predicted the deaths of over 100 people. So he would go to the room, you know, right before someone died, and he would comfort that person or like, you know, snuggle with them. And so I was, I had heard about that cat and I thought that was very cool. I, Yeah, I, I just, there's, there's. I don't know how much I, I believe, like with the animal medium and with people who are tarot card readers, I like them. I don't know if I believe them, but I also don't care. I'm like, it's useful to go to a tarot card reader because they will give you advice and they will tell you, you know, they'll give you some direction and you can ignore it or not or, or buy into it, but I find it very helpful to, to hear someone say something with certainty. Like, you should break it. Like, I had, I went to a. When I was in, I guess I was in high school and I went to psychic with my brother and, and the psychic told me, like, the boyfriend you're in with now doesn't really love you. And I, if I had heard her, I would have saved myself a world of pain. But I didn't. I was like, she doesn't know anything. He's obsessed with me. So I just like that it's advice from somebody who's gonna really try to tell, like tell you things with complete certainty. Whereas your friends will be like, I don't know, should you break up with him or. No, he' he seems to really like you. He's cheating on you, but I'm not gonna tell you, you know, so. And animals, I know they have a sense about the world that we don't have. Kind of just like, you know, we can accept that, you know, people who are blind might have a better sense of smell.

[Elise Hu]

Yep.

[Annie Hartnett]

So I think that, you know, we know that animals are really intelligent and I think they're intelligent in ways that we aren't. And I just love collecting stories about the way that animals interact with people. And yeah, even I have a friend who she. In the middle of the night, she had a. She had sleep paralysis and she woke up and she couldn't move her body and her dog didn't sleep with her. But as she's lying there like unable to move, having this frozen panic attack, she hears her dog go and click, click, click, click, click, click. His. His nails on the floor and he came and he lay on top of her and that broke the spell of the sleep paralysis. So it's like, that's amazing that he wasn't even next to her and, and could help her. He could sense that there was something wrong with her. So that like, I can't explain that other than there's, there's something woo woo.

[Elise Hu]

About animals or, or that we're connected, our consciousness can be connected with the natural world or is.

[Dory Shafrir]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

You mentioned high school and obviously the inciting incident of this book is about a high school crush and going to chase a high school crush. So I'd love for you just to reflect a little bit on what is so enduring or compelling about our old crushes, especially in our adolescence.

[Annie Hartnett]

Well, I, this is very funny to me because when I, when my last book came out, when Unlikely Animals came out, I had, I had this crush that I was just in love with in middle school, which I think are, is even worse than, than, than high school crushes, like even more enduring and deep in your soul. So I was friends with this boy. I never dated him. He never knew that I had a crush on him. But. And we had stayed kind of in touch. We went to different high schools, mostly through social media kind of, you know, and I think he had read My first book. And he showed up to the reading at my hometown launch, and. And he was the last person in line. And I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, like, there were these other older women in front of him, and I was like, move out of the way. And everyone. He showed up and I was like, oh, well, everyone already went. Like, the Hasani line had taken a while, so everybody else had gone. Like, my whole family had gone to the bar, and a lot of our friends, you know, there was a lot of people waiting at the bar for me. And so I said, do you want to come over and like, get a drink? And we're all like, it's an after party. So he comes over with me. We're catching up. And then I run first and to my husband and I say, oh, Drew, like, meet my. My friend Jesse Hewson and who's. Who is my crush. And my husband goes, oh, yeah, Jesse. And he talks about you all the time. And I, like, I was like, waiting for. For this ground to just open up and swallow me. And then my little brother yells out, jesse Houston, I know everything about you. And I'm like, oh, my God. And so Jesse has had. Had no idea up until this moment that I had been in love with him for several years. And so. But he is like, to his great credit and his true crush worthy credit, he was so nice about it. Didn't tease me about it, was just like a nice, like. And then my husband sees I'm embarrassed and tries to recover, and he goes, I mean, Annie talks about all her ex boyfriends all the time.

[Elise Hu]

I know. Oh, no.

[Annie Hartnett]

And I'm like, no, no, we didn't date.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, no. Bless his heart. He was trying to do you a solid. He was trying to save it and only exacerbated it. Oh, yeah.

[Annie Hartnett]

So I mean, the fact that I could still feel that embarrassment that that was something that was feeling of seventh grade. I just feel that it was so formative. High school crushes and middle school crushes or just like that raw emotion of feeling like this is what true love is and wanting to be seen and wanting and wanting to connect with someone who, you know, is in your French class. For pj, who's trying to connect, he's really looking for a way to connect with his. Like, he's actually had a lot of tragedy in his life, and he's looking for a way to connect with his younger self and trying to get back to when everything felt possible because he is. Has been in a place where he feels like nothing is possible and everything is meaningless. And so he's hopeful that this could be a second chance for him. So the novel is really about second chances in many ways. And so he is driving to see this person who he hasn't seen in 45 years, knows nothing about her other than that he imagines she's still good looking.

[Dory Shafrir]

I want to talk about the. The accountability workshops, which I've been a part of, and I find extremely valuable and helpful. And could you just tell our listeners what they are, how you and Tessa started them? Just kind of give us the. The rundown.

[Annie Hartnett]

Yeah. So after the accountability workshops, we've been around for three years, but our origin story starts, I guess it starts pretty much right after Tess's book came out. So my first book, Rabicate, came out in 2017, and then her memoir, the Electric Woman, came out the next year in 2018. And we had gone to graduate school together, but we were not really friends in graduate school. She was two years, like, above me in the program, and she had her own friends, and I had my dog and lived in the graveyard. And, like, it was kind of just nose to the computer. But so we became friends because I blurbed her book and it's like a masterful memoir. And I was just like, this should win the National Book Award if, like, life is fair. So she. I blurbed it, and then she wrote to me and was like, thanks so much for the blurb. Do you have any tips about writing a second book? And I said, no, I'm miserable. I'm not writing. My dog died. I'm talking to animal mediums. I am, like, in the worst place ever. But I'm trying at that point. I think when she wrote me, I was starting to be aware that I had to dig myself out of the hole somehow. Like, I was deep in the hole, but I was. Had gotten to the point where I had to dig out. And I knew that there was there had to be a way out. And I wasn't quite sure what it was, but I had seen this essay on oprah.com I don't know how I stumbled upon it, but that is by Amy Bender that says it's called the best way to get creative is to make some rules. And it's about her and another friend of hers making a contract about how they're going to keep each other on track with work. And they're going to email each other and say, check and email each other. They'll email each other and say, done. And the other person will Say check, and that's all the only exchange that they'll have. And so I emailed Tessa back and said, you know, I don't have advice, but I would do this with you if you wanted to, like, kind of sheepishly. Because I felt like it was a lot to ask of a person I didn't really know, but she had opened the ask for, like, advice, and. And so she said, yeah, if you want to do that sheepishly back. You know, we both, like, were kind of like, we were not friends and. But it's. It's such a low. Like, it's not. You're not asking. You're both asking a lot of a person and it's. You're not asking that much because you're not asking them to read anything. And so we started doing that in 2018, I think, like early in 2018. And that is what pulled me out of the depression that I was in and what I started to write a book and that later became Unlikely Animals. And so she. She really like. And then we became friends over the time, over the course, like, we became really good friends. Even I would say she's one of my best friends. And it's. So then fast forward a couple years. I had a kid, she had a kid, and she was just like, how do I keep writing? And so we did two things. I was also. I had a two year old, so I was. I was out of the infant period, but I felt like I was actually in the worst part of parenting. And so I was miserable. And she was looking to me again for reassurance, and I was like, I'm again in a bad pitch. So we did two things. We started an actual. More of a writers group. So we added two writers to our mix, Rufi Thorpe and Claire Beams, who are awesome writers. And I knew both of them a little bit, and so they were easy asking. We had thought we were going to add more people, but we only asked those two people in the beginning and haven't grown it. And we started meeting every two weeks on Zoom. We all live in different places and just updating each other on what's going on. And Claire and Rufi both have kids that are older than our kids. And so sometimes it was just like, tell us this won't kill us. Tell us having children will be worth it someday, because right now it's not worth it. And so. And then other times we'll talk about the business. We're very like. We always tell each other about how much money we get from something. We just will always talk about is this normal and having that sort of open friendship, supportive friendship or be like, you know, this happened and it sucks. And just hearing other people agree that it sucks is helpful. So then what we did from there is we were like, this is Tessa. And I realized this is what more writers need and we lucked out into having it, you know, work for us to do it, just us to. But a lot of writing groups fall apart and. And it. And just most people I know are like, I need more support to get work done, especially if I have another job, if I have kids or even like, especially if I'm retired and I don't know what to do with all my time. So there's no real like it kind of is useful for everybody to have some sort of accountability structure. So we started it as an experiment and it grew to. We now have 80 members across the groups are like no bigger than 15. We meet every two weeks to hear what's going on. We. Everyone has a contract. They have any anytime access to me and Tessa. So if you need to talk something through, you make an appointment on. And we do phone calls. I'll text with people if they want to text with me. Tessa doesn't text, but I like to text. And, and we have a monthly speaker. So we. And we have a book club. So it's become like a real community and the people are awesome because it's kind of a self selecting group of people who are like, this is what I need in order to be successful with my work. But I don't have the ego about. I need to prove that I'm better than anybody or like. Or that I don't care about listening to what is going on with other people. You know, it just is this. So it fosters this real generosity between other, other writers that is really is. I mean I've been in really good workshops too. But sometimes it can be that those can be toxic environments as well. And it's kind of a. You can't control what you're going to get. So. And I guess you can't really control what you get in the accountability workshop either. But I just feel like because of what people are looking for, everybody's been super great that we've worked with and we do it month to month so that people can come for any time that they want. We try to keep the price point low in terms of how much these things typically cost. So it's 150amonth. You can come for one month, you can come for three months a lot of people are long haulers because they realize.

[Elise Hu]

Or.

[Annie Hartnett]

What I've realized about my own life is that if I don't have that structure and support, I'm not going to do it. And I need some sort of external structure. Like, I heard Gretchen Rubin talking about this, that a lot of people who do well with deadlines or do well with some sort of external structure should accept that. She wasn't talking about. I mean, be great if Gretchen Rubin was talking about my podcast or my. My accountability group, but she, Gretchen, she was talking about how there are a lot of people with personalities that need this structure and that we should accept that accountability groups are not our tools, that they're not training wheels.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Annie Hartnett]

So it's something that if you can accept you need a partner of some kind rather than that someday you'll be fixed and it will be easy to do the thing you love the most, which is writing for a lot of, you know, for all my clients, certainly.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Because my approach to writing is do nothing, then panic. It's four words. It's a very simple method. It's the Elise Hu method. Do nothing, then panic. Annie, we've learned so much from you. You mentioned that the accountability workshops also has a book club. So before we let you go, what are you reading or what have you read recently that you're excited about?

[Annie Hartnett]

We are reading. I haven't read it yet, but people are excited about it. The. The new Lydia Yukonovic memoir. And it's called beyond the Waves, I think. Okay, so I haven't read it yet. That's our book club book for the spring. And then we read for winter. We read All Fours by Miranda July, which was. Everyone loved that. That was. So we just do four book clubs a year. But that one was great because scheduling wise, it was hard because we have people, you know, we have some people in other countries and everyone wanted to come to that book club because everyone wanted to talk about all fours. So it was spicy.

[Elise Hu]

Well, thank you so much for building community in that way and with your accountability workshops and for taking care of the birds in the backyard.

[Dory Shafrir]

And thank you for coming such and writing such great books.

[Annie Hartnett]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was great.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah. Annie, are you. Are you doing any events for your new book?

[Annie Hartnett]

I am. I will put them on my website probably in the next couple days. So they should be on@annie hartnett.com they are also on my Instagram, which is Annie Underscore Hartnett. I'm going all around so far. I'm not coming to la, but I am going to. I'm going to Portland, Oregon and Seattle, Washington are my west coast states, because my husband's from Seattle. And then I'm doing a lot in New England and a bunch in North Carolina. And I'm trying to go everywhere. I'm trying to. You know, it's a road trip book, so I. And I love events, so I'm like, invite me and I will try to go if I can.

[Dory Shafrir]

Well, thank you so much. This is. This is super fun to get to talk to you.

[Annie Hartnett]

Thank you, guys.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, Annie was just so delightful. I'm bummed she doesn't have an LA tour date yet. Maybe we can, like, yeah, manifest that we should. If you are a bookseller in Los Angeles and you're listening to this podcast, please book Annie.

[Elise Hu]

Booksellers listen. People in the publishing industry listen to Forever 35. Since we do have so many conversations with authors. So is if that conversation that you just heard was enlightening and entertaining for you, consider hosting Annie here in la.

[Dory Shafrir]

Consider hosting Annie. All right. Last week I was going to just try to, like, enjoy my trip to D.C. and I think I did that. I had a great trip to dc. You can. You can hear more about it on the casual chat that we did last week. And yeah, it was just a really, really great trip. This week Henry's birthday is coming up and yeah, I. I gotta, like, figure out all his birthday stuff. So that's. That's what I got going on this week. Elise, how about you?

[Elise Hu]

Last week I really just wanted to be present because I was in that, like, sensory overload of ted and I was present enough. I did a better job at TED this year of not staying up too late and going to random parties where I might not have a good time just because I had a fomo. And so this time I actually, like, got home at reasonable times and, like, went to sleep and slept pretty well in my hotel. And it helped me during the day, really be on when I needed to have conversations and interviews for work, but then also when I met new people. And so I mentioned on our Patreon casual chat that, like, I made some good friends. Like, I made some new friends that I don't think that I would have unless I was kind of really there and making space for that in my life. So, yeah, that intention helped. And then this week I am traveling, so traveling with family. So I guess my. Let me just set my intention for, like, you know, family time, you know, and just like, paying attention. I've been talking about how I need to improve my attention and I want to improve my kids attention too. So like attention is the intent. Attention is the intention.

[Dory Shafrir]

Attention is the intention. I love it.

[Elise Hu]

And attention on my family members.

[Dory Shafrir]

So great.

[Elise Hu]

We'll set it out there.

[Dory Shafrir]

All right, thanks everyone for listening. Just a reminder that February 35th is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sami Reed is our Project Manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks so much for listening and we will talk to you soon. Learning new things makes me just feel accomplished. And I don't know about you, but I like feeling proud of myself and my accomplishments. Which is why I love taking new classes on Masterclass where I can learn from the best to become my best with honestly not a ton of effort. It's available on my phone. Lessons are around 10 minutes each and if busy with my eyes or my hands, I can do the audio only lessons. When in history, has it ever been easier to learn something new than it is today? Speaking of history, there's a great class that has lessons on Black history, freedom and love from influential Black voices. You must listen or watch the lesson the Redeemer Constitution taught by Constitutional law expert Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, the creator of the phrases intersectionality, Critical Race Theory and say Her Name. Yeah, it's full of thought provoking, eye opening history that is often brushed over if it's taught at all. Or watch Angela Davis, the Black Liberation movement icon, discuss the connection between Black women and blues music in a beautiful way that will change the way you listen to blues forever. The time to start your learning journey is now and you should do it with Masterclass right now. Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail], that's 15 [e-mail] Forever 35.

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