Episode 350: The Scamminess and Scumminess of Growing Up in the 90s with Sophie Gilbert

Summary

Episode 350: The Scamminess and Scumminess of Growing Up in the 90s with Sophie Gilbert

Release Date: April 28, 2025

In this enlightening episode of Forever35, co-hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve deep into the intricate relationship between 90s cultural dynamics and the pervasive misogyny that continues to shape women's experiences today. Their guest, Sophie Gilbert, a distinguished cultural critic from The Atlantic and author of the acclaimed book Girl on Girl, brings a wealth of insight into how past cultural trends influence contemporary gender narratives.

Introduction and Self-Care Practices

The episode begins with Sophie sharing her personal self-care rituals, particularly her reliance on long baths to navigate the damp and cold English winters. “I take a lot of baths to get through the winter,” Sophie mentions at [17:34], highlighting the simple yet effective ways she maintains her well-being amidst chilly weather and poor circulation.

Exploring Sophie Gilbert’s Work and "Girl on Girl"

Elise introduces Sophie, emphasizing her accolades, including the 2024 National Magazine Award for Reviews and Criticism and being a finalist for the 2022 Pulitzer Prize in criticism. Sophie’s latest work, Girl on Girl, is highlighted as a critical analysis of 21st-century pop culture and its profound impact on women's lives.

Cultural Criticism and the Roots of Misogyny

Sophie articulates how cultural elements from the 90s to the 2010s have perpetuated misogynistic ideals. At [21:00], she states, “I saw someone post the other day about how one thing we don't talk about enough is how porn-brained a lot of the people in the Trump administration are because they just came of age on these 4chan sites...” This underscores the connection between early exposure to explicit and toxic online cultures and the reinforcement of negative perceptions of women.

She further explains, “This was something that increased in usage tenfold in the United States between like 86 and 96. Suddenly, this massive explosion. And that was before the Internet. That was just people watching porn on VHS.” Sophie emphasizes how the accessibility and proliferation of porn have seeped into various facets of culture, shaping societal attitudes towards women.

The Evolution of Feminism and the 'Girl Boss' Era

Delving into the shift from post-feminism to the 'Girl Boss' culture, Sophie critiques the individualistic approach that dominated the late 2000s and 2010s. She remarks, “It was very much sort of self-focused and it was a lot of it was about shopping. Like, go out, use your economic power, be sexy.” This shift, she argues, diverted attention from collective feminist activism towards personal empowerment narratives that often lacked substantive advocacy for systemic change.

Misogyny in Modern Movements and Backlash

Sophie draws parallels between the misogyny of the early 2000s and contemporary movements aimed at pushing women out of the workforce. She expresses concern over initiatives like Project 2025, describing it as “a very organized, quite scarily efficient, like very focused movement to have men do the jobs and women be at home.” This reflects a regressive push against the strides made in gender equality, echoing the hostile environments women navigated in previous decades.

The Future of Feminism Amidst Persistent Backlash

Confronting the cyclical nature of progress and setbacks in feminist movements, Sophie remains cautiously optimistic. She posits, “As we've seen, you can get away with making sweeping changes in American culture if you're shitty enough about it. So maybe in some ways this real moment of backlash and breakdown will inspire a way to rebuild things differently.” Sophie advocates for a reinvigorated approach to feminism that prioritizes collective action and systemic reform over individualistic pursuits.

Conclusion and Takeaways

The conversation concludes with Sophie emphasizing the importance of recognizing the enduring impact of cultural narratives on women's empowerment. She advocates for a return to more intimate, communal forms of activism, suggesting that “There was more of a sense of communitarianism in that moment that maybe would behoove us to get back to feminist collab houses.”

Notable Quotes

• “I take a lot of baths to get through the winter.” — Sophie Gilbert [17:34]

• “I saw someone post the other day about how one thing we don't talk about enough is how porn-brained a lot of the people in the Trump administration are because they just came of age on these 4chan sites...” — Sophie Gilbert [21:00]

• “It was very much sort of self-focused and it was a lot of it was about shopping. Like, go out, use your economic power, be sexy.” — Sophie Gilbert [29:46]

• “As we've seen, you can get away with making sweeping changes in American culture if you're shitty enough about it. So maybe in some ways this real moment of backlash and breakdown will inspire a way to rebuild things differently.” — Sophie Gilbert [40:15]

Final Thoughts

Through a nuanced discussion, Sophie Gilbert provides a critical lens on how historical and cultural forces have molded the current landscape of gender dynamics. Forever35 offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the systemic challenges women face, rooted in decades-old cultural practices and perpetuated by modern societal shifts. Sophie's insights not only highlight the persistent issues but also inspire a call to action for a more unified and authentic feminist movement.

For those interested in exploring these themes further, Sophie's book Girl on Girl is available on forever35podcast.com and major book retailers. Additionally, Sophie can be followed on Instagram at @sophiegilbertwrites.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Sun'S out, the air is warming and the itch to travel is returning. I am headed to Mexico. I'm headed to Cabo in a couple weeks and I'm preparing myself and the family with a first class quality suitcase at an economy price tag from Quince. Ava is going to get a baby pink colored suitcase. It is the carry on kids suitcase 18 inch. It's really going to upgrade our trip and you can treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve too with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices like lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops. I have one. I love it. And comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to car it all. The best part? All Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quint. Go to quince.com forever35 for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u I n c e.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com forever35.

[Dory Shafrir]

Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves.

[Elise Hu]

I am Dory Shafrier and I'm Elise Hu and we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrir]

How's it going, Elise?

[Elise Hu]

Well, we just recently got our listener survey results back, so it's going great. I loved getting to see a lot of your feedback. Thank you for responding to the survey. There were great suggestions. I especially loved and I can't believe we hadn't done this before or thought of it on our own. But I love there was an idea about like putting in timestamps in our captions or our show notes so that you can jump to the timestamp for the topic that you want to hear about. Like if you are here just to hear our Monday interviews, we could timestamp it so that you could jump to the interview or just want to know where things are. Right. I have been jumping around on one of my TV podcasts that I like a lot, the Watch from the Ringer. They do the timestamps for the shows that they talk about, which is really helpful because when you don't want to be spoiled, you can just jump around. I don't think we have any topics where we would be spoiling anything. I think that, you know, if we're talking about various care topics, whether it's friendship or relationships or serums, like, those things are pretty tried and true unless they've been discontinued.

[Dory Shafrir]

Right. And in that case, it wouldn't be really a spoiler. People would probably want to know if something had been discontinued FDA recalled which.

[Elise Hu]

Or which might not happen anymore because I don't know. Does the FDA even do those anymore? I have no idea.

[Dory Shafrir]

What's. What is the fda?

[Elise Hu]

What's going on with you?

[Dory Shafrir]

So my tennis team, which is a weekend team, is now we also have a weekday version.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Dory Shafrir]

So we just played our first weekday match. I did not play, but I went to cheer on the team and we won in a very tense.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, how fun.

[Dory Shafrir]

Three individual matches, like make up the whole match. And we had won one of the lines, like very quickly. The second one went to a match tie break that we lost. So now each, each team had won one line and it came down to the. The last team playing and they went to a match. Tie break. Match tie break in USA is first to 10, win by two. So it was really close. And we ended up winning the match. Tiebreak, 10, 8. So we, we won the match. We won that match and we won the whole match. Yeah. And like I was sitting there like, oh my gosh. But yeah, it was really fun.

[Elise Hu]

That's so fun to watch.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, it was really fun to watch. People were just, like, playing good tennis, and everyone was really into it.

[Sophie Gilbert]

So it was good.

[Dory Shafrir]

It was fun.

[Elise Hu]

Sweet. So you're still playing on the weekends and you're adding weekday time?

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, I'm adding most of the matches are on, like, during the week in the morning. So, like, one morning a week. So it's. It's not. It's not too bad. And it was, like, a time when I mostly had set aside for, like, I often would practice during this time. So it's like. It's not really a time that I was, like, using for other things.

[Elise Hu]

Writing.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, writing. What's writing? I don't know.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, writing. I had this interview this morning. I'm in, like, a weird mood because I had this interview this morning with one of those people who. He was rather arrogant. And it. It came off even before the interview started. It was pretty clear.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh, wow.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And even in, like, the joking around before we got the interview started and then answered questions with such fervor, like, as if we were against each other rather than just having a conversation. And there are very few people with whom I've had interviews like this, and the ones that I have stand out to me because they were Fred Thompson, former Senator Fred Thompson, who was also a presidential candidate and also on Law and Order. He was very mean and pompous in interviews. And I think this is like, before it was really well known that he was this way. And then the other one was Lance Armstrong pre. Getting busted for all of the doping.

[Dory Shafrir]

Ooh.

[Elise Hu]

And I remember interviewing Lance Armstrong and me walking away from it and thinking, like, that guy's such a prick. He's so mean. Like, he just. He was clearly one of those people who's like, I'm so selfless, but really, everything was all about him.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And. And something just like my. My spidey sense was off with that guy. And it wasn't for many, many years because he was in the height of his, like, livestrong yellow bracelet. Everybody loves Lance Armstrong. Maybe like, early Cheryl Crow. Dating date.

[Dory Shafrir]

We're wearing the Cheryl Crow.

[Elise Hu]

Like, yeah, early. Early. And I. Everybody loved him. And I walked away from it, and I had the worst taste in my mouth. And I'm vindicated. I'm vindicated. So anyway, I mean, this wasn't that bad, but it gave me that kind of vibe where I was like, a lot of people like this person. But I don't know, because we put so much emotional energy into our conversations, and I certainly do when I'm interviewing somebody because, you know, I'm listening hard, you know, and I'm, like, being curious. It kind of throws me off when the energy of something like that is off. And then the rest of my day, I just feel a little bit demoralized. But I'll pick myself back up. I'm just kind of in that.

[Dory Shafrir]

You know what, though? I feel like with people like that, they, like, get off on how much of a rise they can get out of you. Like, they need to feel. They need to feel intellectually and morally superior. And they suck.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

Like, in actuality, they just suck. So, like, yeah, whatever.

[Elise Hu]

You're right. You're like, right.

[Dory Shafrir]

You're smarter and better than he is, and he knows that's why he had to, like, neg you.

[Elise Hu]

Probably. Probably. Yeah, let's go with that. Let's go with that.

[Dory Shafrir]

I mean, I'm right. I know I'm right. All right, well, before we get to.

[Elise Hu]

Our guest, who was absolutely the opposite of this, by the way, we are not talking about today's guest.

[Dory Shafrir]

No, no, no.

[Elise Hu]

Our guest today is one of my favorite cultural critics of all time. I read everything she writes. Her name's Sophie Gilbert. She's from the Atlantic. You will hear from our interview how brilliant she is. But before we get to that, before.

[Dory Shafrir]

We get to that, on our website, which is forever35podcast.com we have links to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram @February35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35. We have shelves with our favorite products at Shopmy US, Forever35, as well as our quarterly guest, celebrity makeup artist Rachel Goodwin. She also has a shelf on her shop My yes, the [e-mail] Newsletter and if you would like to call or text us, please do. That's at 781-591-0390 and our email is forever35podcastmail.com Elise, would you like to introduce Sophie?

[Elise Hu]

It is my pleasure to introduce Sophie Gilbert, a staff writer at the Atlantic. She won the 2024 National Magazine Award for Reviews and Criticism and was a finalist for the 2022 Pulitzer Prize in criticism. She is the author of On Bodies, Literature, Choice, and Girl on Girl, which I think is out this week. It's an analysis of 21st century pop culture and its influence on us on women. Before joining The Atlantic in 2014, she was the arts editor at Washingtonian magazine. Like I have said, I am a huge fan girl of Sophie Gilbert's. This conversation only cemented it further and we can't wait for you to hear this conversation.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

Elise I gave an aura frame to my parents so they could just like stay up on all the grandkids. And you know the first thing I did when I got back from DC was I put all the photos from our trip onto our Aura frame and my parents aura frame.

[Elise Hu]

Oh that's so sweet.

[Dory Shafrir]

I know. So they could see it. And then Henry loves to watch all the photos on our Aura frame. So it's just like the best.

[Elise Hu]

Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off plus free shipping on their bestselling Carver Matte frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code forever35. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. The sun's out, the air is warming, and the itch to travel is returning. I am headed to Mexico. I'm headed to Cabo in a couple weeks and I'm preparing myself and the family with a first class quality suitcase at an economy price tag from Quince. Ava is going to get a baby pink colored suitcase. It is the Carryon Kid suitcase 18 inch. It's really going to upgrade our trip and you can treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve too with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices like lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops. I have one. I love it and comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing pract and premium fabrics and finishes. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.comforever35 for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com forever35 money and how to handle it wasn't something I was taught enough as a kid and I dearly wish I had been. April is Financial Literacy Literacy Month, so we are pleased that this episode is brought to you by Acorns. This is the perfect time to start teaching your kids the value of money and Acorns early makes it easy with their Smart Money app and debit card for kids. Acorns Early's Chores Tracker teaches kids that hard work pays off. Just set up tasks in the app, set up a payment amount and tick the chore off when it's done. Savings goals help kids turn saving into a habit. They can even choose their own target dates and turn on the optional autosave feature to help them get there. Kids get a new sense of independence when they spend what they earn with their very own debit card. Plus, kids can build up their money knowledge and their confidence with bite sized financial lessons. The Acorns early app has tons of fun interactive courses that help kids learn about all things money. Ready to help your kids grow money skills that will last a lifetime? Just head to acornserly.com forever35 or download the Acorns early app to get started. Started. Sign up now and your first month is on us. Acorn's early card is issued by Community Federal Savings bank member FDIC pursuant to licensed by MasterCard International. TNCs apply monthly subscription fee starting from $5 a month unless canceled.

[Dory Shafrir]

Sophie, welcome to Forever35. We are both so excited to have you on the show. Welcome, welcome.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I've loved listening to Forever 35 so much and I'm such a fan of both of you. It's. It' amazing to be here.

[Dory Shafrir]

That's so kind, thank you. Well, as you probably know, we start off our conversations by asking our guests about any self care practice that they have. So is there something that you are doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, I live in England and I take a lot of baths to get through the winter and you would wonder like how many baths can someone take in a day. And often it's more. It's more than you would think really.

[Elise Hu]

Without like drying out your skin.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Well, it's just so. It's so cold.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's.

[Sophie Gilbert]

It's not that cold here, I should say. But it is damp. It's very, very damp and it. For some reason I have poor circulation. I just suffer in the winters. I mean I don't really suffer. That sounds extreme, but I don't like it. So being in the bath is often just a nice, a nice change from. From the weather.

[Dory Shafrir]

What do you do in the bath? What's like your bath? What's your bath ritual?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh God. I look at my phone. Isn't that awful? No, I. Somet I listen to. I listen to like guided meditation. Sometimes I'll do a mask but often it's just about being warm for like 15 minutes, half an hour.

[Dory Shafrir]

Are you like a super. Sorry, I have a lot of bath questions.

[Sophie Gilbert]

No, please, please, please.

[Dory Shafrir]

Are you like a super hot water bath person? Like do you want it to be really hot or more of like a warmish hot?

[Sophie Gilbert]

I do like hot. It was hard when I was pregnant because you're supposed to really like measure the temperature and not have to that hot. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dory Shafrir]

Thank you for. For satisfying my bath curiosity.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Anytime.

[Elise Hu]

Well, since you are abroad, Sophie, I wanted to ask you how are you holding up these days and what is it like watching what's happening in your former home of America from abroad?

[Sophie Gilbert]

No, I mean it. I'm. I'm a US citizen now too and I. I feel so attached to America. Like my kids were born there, my husband's from there. We have so much family there. My work Is obviously there in so many ways, my attention. I want to say my heart, but that sounds really sappy, but I do. I've been listening to you guys and when you mentioned Trader Joe's and Costco, I have that feeling of like, oh, there's nothing, there's nothing here like that. I don't know, I mean, it's awful, right? The nice thing about having a book come out is you're very busy and you're very distracted. And I have four year old twins too, so they don't really follow the news. So that part is nice. But the not so nice thing about having a book come out is you want to be like, hey, everybody have a book coming out. And they're like, the economy's tanking. How are you guys doing?

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, how are we doing? I was actually just saying that the best way that I can describe how I'm doing is just maintaining. I feel like this actually connects with Girl on Girl, your new book, and culture generally. Because one of the themes is just how much the culture that we cook in and are cooked in end up ends up shaping society and shaping the major narratives for how we grow up and how we live. I would love to start with unchecked misogyny because that is the backdrop of so much that's happening now and the manosphere and how ascendant it feels and how dominant it is in our politics. Could you connect the moment that we're in today with the misogyny of the aughts that you really looked at and researched for this book?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, I mean, so much of it echoes. And I think the thing I really found researching the book was just all these. Nothing really repeats itself. But you do get these echoes over and over and over again of the same kinds of behavior, the same kinds of influences. I saw someone post the other day about how one thing we don't talk about enough is how porn brained a lot of the people in the Trump administration are because they just came. They came of age on these 4chan sites and these places where people are just sort of trading filth. It's not polite discourse, shall we say? So and that's kind of like an understudied angle of why women are so disdained.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. What does it mean to be porn brained?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Just, I guess having really been exposed to a lot of extreme content on the Internet and that was something I hadn't really thought about myself. But when you think about it, it does make sense. And similarly, when I was researching the book, I stupidly hadn't anticipated that porn would be this through line like that. It would. That it would have been such a massive influence on the culture, on every really, like, really every aspect of the culture, every form of media. But then you think about it and you're like, of course. I mean, this was something that, like, increased in usage tenfold in the United states between like 86 and 96. Suddenly, this massive explosion. And that was before the Internet. That was just people watching porn on vhs. So then you get the Internet and you get sudden. I mean, how can it not shape and change how people think about women? Like, how people understand women in their. In the sort of. In the cultural imagination writ large? Like, of course it's gonna. It's gonna bleed out. So that was something I was. When you start to put the pieces together, it connects, let's say.

[Dory Shafrir]

Could we just back up a moment and have you talk a little bit about the book and how you came to write a book like this and kind of what the. What the main thesis of the book is about, just to give our readers kind of a baseline.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Sophie Gilbert]

So the. The book is called Girl on Girl, which originally was supposed to be a joke. It came to me in the middle of the night, you know, when you can't sleep, and you're like, oh, I'm a cultural critic at the Atlantic. And it's a book about kind of cultural criticism, kind of history, looking at what the culture of the 90s, the 2000s, the 2010s, did to women, did to the women's movement, did to the momentum of feminism, and just to kind of like poke around a little bit about what happened. And then obviously I did. And then it all. It all opened up.

[Dory Shafrir]

You said you were sort of surprised to see porn as one of the main. Through lines. You had a basis of knowledge going into this. But what was one of the. Or, you know, some of the other through lines or aspects of culture from this period that really surprised you?

[Sophie Gilbert]

That's such a good question. Really, the question I had when I was going into it was, why were we women so easily persuaded to sort of go along with everything? Why was pushing back so hard? Why was feminism so inert during this moment? And I think what I came to realize was that it was just like the messaging was so total. I mean, if you picked up a magazine, if you watched a movie, if you went to an art house movie, if you watched, like, American Pie, if you watch reality, reality television, like every form of media, fashion, everything was sort of reiterating the same messaging, and a lot of that messaging was coming from porn. And it was basically like, women, your power is sexual. Like, that's the power that you have in this world. That's the realm where you can really excel and be strong and have control over, you know, And I think at the time when you were young, that's quite an intoxicating message because any kind of power is like, great, lovely. I've been a kid all my life, fantastic. But it sort of makes you not think about any other kinds of power that might exist for you as women in the world. And that was the part that I myself have always wrangled with in the years since.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, you write about post feminism and this idea of choice and empowerment, or choice feminism and. And a question that the book returns to again and again, and I return to a lot in my own thinking and in my own work, is how we separate our desires, our actual desires, our soul level desires from the desires that we are expected to have or expected to perform. So whether it's the influence of porn, as you talk about, or the influence of beauty standards, which I write about, how do any of us really sort that out and find fulfillment, sexual or otherwise, on our own terms?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, I should say I loved your book so much. I have it right here on my desk right in front of me. So it's like your hip hop.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it's in conversation. Right. So I actually thought, oh, man, I wish I would have written this book. You know, when I read yours.

[Sophie Gilbert]

No, yours was brilliant. No, I read it before I was writing the beauty chapter. So very much it was like in conversation with the same kinds of ideas and questions. I mean, I think so much of it in terms of shaping women's desires. So you start to get conspiratorial when you think about it, because it does feel so much like a project of distraction. Like we're told by corporations, by advertising, by media to find fault with ourselves. Constantly like, oh, we need to lose weight, we need to. Like, I need to get rid of my eye bags or constantly find things to pick at. Sometimes it feels like people just invent things, new things for us to obsess over. And it does make you wonder, is this a project of distraction so we're not really thinking about and fighting for what we actually need, the things that we actually need to improve our lives, to make our lives as parents, as people in the workforce, as artists, as anything to make those things easier, to make us more productive. I really started working on the book after Roe V Wade was overturned. And I just. It sort of. It was so hard to me, it was so hard to believe that women making up a majority of the population can't sort of not fight more, but can't achieve more. And I obviously, like, we're not a monolith. We don't all agree. We don't all want the same things, but it's just hard sometimes to sort of think, why are we so disconnected from power? Like, why is that? And where did that come from? And for me, like, I'm convinced that a lot of it is cultural. We're given a sort of certain idea of ourselves and what we should aspire to and what we should want and what we should think of ourselves as capable of doing. And often it's not real. It's very manufactured, and it's very much in service of someone else having the power that otherwise we could claim. Sorry, I feel like I'm starting to sound like a woman who runs with wolves or like goddesses and everyone.

[Dory Shafrir]

No, I mean, I think this is such a relevant conversation. You know, there's so much internalized misogyny. And, you know, right now, I think with, like, the trad wife discourse.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

We're seeing all these women who are sort of proudly flaunting their very anachronistic lifestyles in the. In the name of. Well, I chose this. What are you choosing?

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, but also, the crazy thing is a lot of those women, I mean, Sarah Peterson always makes this point really well that they have jobs, they're content creators. Like, they're influencers. Right.

[Dory Shafrir]

They've been very much fetishizing this. This retrostick. Domestic life.

[Elise Hu]

Life.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah. And also they're sort of telling other women that this is the ideal lifestyle. But. But they also don't fully live it because, as I said, they have jobs and they. Yes, they have their, you know, brand partnerships and their agents and their, you know, all kinds of. All kinds of deals going on. So it's not like they're just at home churning butter. I think that's the part I find hard to square.

[Elise Hu]

But, yes, they're working. They are laboring with their bodies by being in front of a. All the time and performing. This ties a little bit to your reappraisal of the whole girl boss era, which so many of us were kind of coming into our 30s during. And you were. You wrote that there was a real kind of scumminess or a scamminess to that era from the very beginning. So we'd love for you just to say more and talk us through that.

[Sophie Gilbert]

That. Yeah, I think when I was thinking about scamminess, I was just thinking about like the proliferation of MLMs and how much platforms like Instagram and social media made it easier for women to. I mean, just as we were saying the tribe wives to really like perform a certain kind of life that is not authentic or not real often because they're trying to get their friends to buy into a pyramid scheme that will end up enriching like a very, very few people at the top. But it was very much. But if you look at the language of some of the women, I think it really makes it clear how much we were all kind of inculcated in the 2010s with that work hard, hustle harder ethic. If you're not making it, it's on you. You can have 10 jobs and self promote and be on every platform and go to the networking party. And it was very much this, just work harder, just work harder. And I think a lot of us coming of age after the, like being in the workforce after the Great Recession, that was what we had to do. So it felt natural that people would give us that message. I think. Yeah. The hardest thing about Lean in for me now is you mentioned post feminism, Eliza, a while back. But the post feminism was a sort of, it was kind of a loosey goosey movement. Like there was no real ideology or there was no like one post feminist prophet. It was sort of, it sort of emerged out of third wave feminism as a sort of like freedom to do whatever you want as women. And it was very individualistic and it was very like Spice Girls girl power. There was no like, there was no activism involved. There was no like asking for equal pay or parental leave or anything like that. It was very much sort of self focused and it was a lot of it was about shopping. Like, go out, use your economic power, be sexy. Like this is what women can do in the new millennium. And I think a lot of the girl boss ethos came from that. Especially if you look at something like lean in, it's very much like we don't need to make things better for all women. Like if we make things better for a few women, good things will trickle down to the women below them. And that just sort of didn't really happen. And I think that when you think about scamminess and things being a sham, that's sort of come to reveal itself a bit more in the years since.

[Elise Hu]

Well, it occurs to me there's a real echo in that today Too, with the collab houses and the creators. Because I was actually just watching with great fascination, there's a new Collab House called GlowHouse, and it's women, mostly white women in who are like 17 or 18, who are all independently huge content creators. And I was watching one of their videos yesterday, and one of these girls was saying, like, you know, I know it probably looks like we have great lives and we only just get together and make a bunch of content, but I also want to help people and make the world a better place. And so I'm sort of like. She's like, so, you know, just tune in, because I'm going to be talking more about that and I'm like, like, how are you going to make the world a better place? What. What is your platform at the Glo house? Does the Glo House have a platform? Are they going to come out for paid parental leave?

[Sophie Gilbert]

You know, if they did, would it matter? Like, I don't know. I mean, so much of my thinking about feminism lately has been like, maybe we need to get back to, like, really old school consciousness raising, like, in our living rooms. No public facing, no performance aspect to it, no makeup, just sort of like more intimate gatherings. Because I feel this performance of feminism is not really working. And maybe nothing is working in this moment because everything is terrible. But I just feel like there was more of a sense of communitarianism in that moment that maybe would behoove us to get back to feminist collab houses. Maybe there's something here.

[Dory Shafrir]

Should we all create a COLLAB House.

[Elise Hu]

Of 40 something something?

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes, 40 some. It'll, you know, it's like feminist Real Housewives slash Glad House commune.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Yeah, yeah. We could get a trad wife to make the bread.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yeah, you get it.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. I want to switch over to a different topic, which was your chapter on girls and just like, women auteurs and women writers generally. And how much. How much, like vitriol. A lot of women who dared to write about their lives or write about their breakups or write, you know, about themselves or expose themselves at all on their own terms. How much flack they got and how much backlash they got for doing it, you know, thinking Lena Dunham in particular. Where did you land on women sort of writing about our own lives, the confessional aspect of it and all of the claims that we're oversharing. Should we just keep putting it all out there?

[Sophie Gilbert]

It's so interesting, right? Because one of the reasons why I Wanted to structure the book chronologically was because you can see, like, how every mini era sort of influences the next one. And to me, it was really striking that you had this, I think peak gossip blog was like, 2007, the year when Britney shaved her head and Anna Nicole overdosed. And it was Paris went to jail, Lindsay went to jail, jail. Nicole was pregnant, like Jamie Lee, Lenn Spears was. It was just this year of, like, gossip insanity. 24 7, rolling ticker women falling apart in the public eye, being surrounded by photographers, really being, like, ripped to shreds, often without. Without ever having bought into any of that. And so it was then less surprising to me around the 2010s, that you had other women sort of come to terms with the idea that, like, if they were going to be this exposed and this torn apart online, like do it themselves, why not change the terms or change the angle of the camera? Why not give themselves a modicum of control in the way in which they expose themselves? And so that's why the nudity in Girls, I think, is so interesting to me, because she's really like, you want nudity, I'm going to give you nudity. It's not going to be the kind you expect, and it's going to make you think about why you want it. And I have thoughts so differently about the show, I think just coming to it from a place of distance because you can see so much how she really challenging porn in so many ways. Not just porn, obviously. She's doing a very good satire, like a certain milieu in a certain city in a certain time. But you can really see Hannah, I think, for one, as a character very much being aware of what porn expects her as a woman to do in sexual senses, even out in the world, even at work. And she kind of mimics those things in a way that makes them seem so absurd. And that's what I've really come to appreciate about the show over the sense. But in terms of putting ourselves out.

[Elise Hu]

There, I don't know.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I mean, I think there's always a bargain, right? Because you have to understand what it would take from you. And I think this was the thing that was maybe not communicated to women writers always, like, if you put something online, it really will be out there forever, and you might not get to change that. I mean, I look back at, not confessional writing, but even looking back at some of my writing from, like, the early 2010s is really mortifying, but it's there. Please don't go find it. It's there. But at the same time, I mean, my UK editor made a really good point, which is that when the MeToo era rolled around, in part, we were sort of prepared to take women at their word because we had had this proliferation of first person pieces about trauma and about horrible things that had happened. Like, we had been prepared, I think, for a moment in which more women would come forward and women themselves were more prepared for what to expect and how to present yourself as a subject.

[Elise Hu]

I didn't even. Yeah, good point.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I know. I didn't think of it too. That's why she said it. I was like, thank you for stealing that love.

[Elise Hu]

A great editor.

[Dory Shafrir]

I mean, I remember because I was editing at BuzzFeed in, like, the teens, and for a while I was editing the personal essays, like kind of the personal essays section. And there was a whole period and I don't remember why what, like, kicked this off, but there was a whole, like, believe women movement before MeToo. Must, like, must have been 2014, 2015. And we ran a bunch of essays. I think we ran one by Lena Dunham, you know, being believed as a. As a victim. And so it's interesting to hear you sort of like, connect the precursors to MeToo.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Wow.

[Dory Shafrir]

To like, this sort of like, nascent, bubbling up movement before that. Because I do think there's. There were like, little things that were kind of trying to do it, and until the MeToo movement sort of coalesced everything, it hadn't really taken off. Yeah, that's such a good point. Sorry, I'm just like, doing my own reflection now.

[Sophie Gilbert]

No, I love it. These are the best moments when you're like, of course, like, it's all connected. It is all connected in so many ways. And finding those connections has been the part of this project that has been so thrilling and gratifying because I do think it helps it us not predict what's coming, but, like, anticipate things a little bit better when you can see that everything repeats itself, everything is cyclical. It's sort of easier to think about what to do next.

[Elise Hu]

Well, how helpful that you just mentioned that and that there are patterns and things reciprocal. Because before we let you go, I wanted to ask about your prognosis for the future, given what you have seen, that there is this backlash every time women make gains towards more gender equality or more power. Will the current backlash, to me too, in feminism and the misogyny of this moment take us back to the time of the aughts that you write about, like, the hyper misogynistic aughts? Or is there a glimmer of maybe progress that is on the horizon based on what you've seen cyclically?

[Sophie Gilbert]

I mean, in some ways things are so much worse now. Like, I don't think in the 2000s you had a movement that was intent on pushing women out of the workforce in the way that Project 2025 seems to be like really this organized, quite scarily efficient, like very focused movement to have men do the jobs and women be at home. I think that's the thing that really scares me because that feels unfamiliar in my lifetime. I think I've always grown up thinking that women can work if they want to, and it just feels strange. But having said that, I mean, I rewrote the last chapter of this so many times during 2024 because everything kept changing, as you guys remember. And when I finally finished it, it was after the election and I really didn't want to end on a really bum note, so. But I do think this is true. This isn't just me trying to happy undefy myself, but when you look at the cycles of progress and backlash, they always are cycles. There will always be two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward. Massive organized campaign of Gamergate hatred and vitriol against women, but then more steps forward. And I think the thing is we're not going to stop persisting and we're not going to quit our jobs and. And I think it's inevitable that there will be another rebound, that this particular. I mean, this particular horrific moment will have its reaction and its counter reaction. And I think we just have to keep thinking about the future and thinking about not what we can do, but what we really, really want. Not sort of survival necessarily, not incremental gains, although those are important too, but really big picture ideas. And as we've seen, you can get away with making sweeping changes in American culture if you're shitty enough about it. So I don't know, maybe in some ways this real moment of backlash and breakdown will inspire sort of a way to rebuild things differently. That is my most hopeful interpretation. I hope it is true.

[Elise Hu]

We hope you will guide us through it.

[Dory Shafrir]

Yes.

[Sophie Gilbert]

No pressure.

[Dory Shafrir]

No pressure, guys.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I read about tv. I think you need somewhere a little bit more. A little bit more serious, politically minded.

[Elise Hu]

Don't undermine your thesis. It's like pop culture is so valuable and important.

[Sophie Gilbert]

I know. Well, I keep. The thing is, I keep doing this because it's like, who wants to think about women in culture now in this moment when we might not have an economy tomorrow. But at the same time, the whole point of the book is that people have always written off women in culture. People have written off subjects like reality television as trash and porn as something that people do in the privacy of their own rooms. And if you don't pay attention to these things, you don't see what they're doing to us. So, yes, I should stop doing that. Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Well, Sophie Gilbert, thanks so much.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Oh, it was such a pleasure. I have really, really, really loved so much listening to you both, and I've, like I said, been a fan of you both for so long. So this is really a delight. Thank you for having me.

[Dory Shafrir]

Likewise. Thank you so much for coming on and I'm glad we could make the time difference work.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Me too. Thank you very much.

[Dory Shafrir]

Sophie, where can our listeners find you? You?

[Sophie Gilbert]

I am at the Atlantic, so my work is always there. My book, Girl on Girl should be. It goes on sale, I think, on April 29th and should be hopefully anywhere books are sold. And I'm on Blue sky, which I think no one is on still at this point. But I'm also on Instagram. I'm Sophie Gilbert writes. So that's where I'll be.

[Elise Hu]

Fantastic.

[Dory Shafrir]

Amazing.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[Sophie Gilbert]

Thank you. You.

[Dory Shafrir]

All right? Well, Sophie Gilbert, just so much brilliance coming out of that woman.

[Elise Hu]

Get the book, folks. Girl on Girl.

[Dory Shafrir]

It's really. It's really good. It's really good. Elise, last week you wrote Attention is the Intention. I think that was in reference to your vacation with your family.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. And I talked about it on last week's mini ep. Yes, but I did it. I did it. I spent so much time with my kids. We spent that time without our phones and. Yeah. And we just like. And they spent time with their grandparents. We had so many shared meals together. And I feel really nourished by all of that. Maybe I should do it again sometimes. Time.

[Dory Shafrir]

Hey, what are you thinking for this week?

[Elise Hu]

The intention for this week is to return to exercise because I've been on a break for the last week, maybe a week and a half, so. But it is really important because I do get a little creaky my joints, you know, in my advanced age. I've. I've got to keep moving. So I'm just going to intend to return to movement.

[Dory Shafrir]

Return to movement. I love that. Okay, well, you know, this. This what? We just had a conversation off air about my needing to go to Costco and, like. And I feel like that's kind of where I'M at right now. Like, that's. My week has just been busy and I don't have time to do, like, all the things I need to do. Like, I have to go to the airport today to pick up my dad. I. Someone asked me to teach mahjong, like, super last minute last night, which was great. I love teaching mahjong, but it just meant, like, a few things that I was gonna do last night I didn't get to do. Like, I'm just. I feel like I'm just, like a little discombobulated. I'm stressed about Henry's party and I'm just like, ugh, just like, let me get through this week. So my intention is just to, like, get through this week and.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, one day at a time.

[Dory Shafrir]

One day at a time. One day at a time. Okay. Well, you know, this is also the episode where we thank our Patreon supporters. We are so grateful to you. I think I read them last time. Yeah, sure.

[Elise Hu]

I will jump in.

[Dory Shafrir]

Would you mind reading them?

[Elise Hu]

Sure. Our Patreon members to thank this month are Caitlyn H. Katie, Ashley Taylor, Teresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara Chiakalos, Amy Sarah Fitz, Amy Schnitzer, Heather Hale, Megan Donald Brew Jr, Helen De Moy, Shelly Lee, Kim Beagler, Sarah Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen, Susan Berseth, Melissa McLean, Fran Kelsey Wolf Denay, Laura Eddy Jettle Apti, Valerie Bruno, Jane Therio, Julie Daniel E. Jackson, Amy Maseko, Liz Rain, JDK, Jennifer Sarah Smith, Hannah M, Julia Putt, Matty O'Day, Marissa Lauren Gitlin, Sarah Bell, Maria Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Haddon, Josie H. Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Elizabeth A, Kelly Dearborn, Christine Bassis, Allison Markline, Jessica Gill, Zulima Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Golds and T. Nikki. Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H. Sarah Egan, Jess Combin, Jennifer Olsen, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brion Macy, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M. Kate M, Emily Bruyer, Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary and Monica. Thank you to our longtime Patreon supporters. Thank you to our new ones and you can.

[Dory Shafrir]

Thank you so much.

[Elise Hu]

Join us. Yes, you can join us on our.

[Dory Shafrir]

[e-mail] Forever34 and just a reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Thank y'all.

[Dory Shafrir]

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