Episode 351: Do Something, Somewhere, Soon with Stacey Abrams

Summary

Forever35 Podcast - Episode 351: "Do Something, Somewhere, Soon" with Stacey Abrams

Release Date: May 5, 2025

In Episode 351 of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu delve into personal self-care routines, pet anecdotes, and engage in an enlightening conversation with guest Stacey Abrams, a renowned voting rights activist and bestselling author. This episode seamlessly blends humor, self-awareness, and insightful discussions on activism and personal growth.

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Personal Self-Care and Updates

Hair Regrowth Journey Doree shares her ongoing battle with hair loss and her recent six-month check-in with her dermatologist. She notes:

"I feel like I have more hair. I'm losing less hair and I have hair growing in." (02:07)

Elise's Experience with Hair Loss Elise discusses her experience with hair loss during COVID, emphasizing the importance of specialized therapy for conditions like telium effluvium:

"I have stabilized. Or I've gotten used to my new reality of living in 2025America." (05:18)

Pet Chronicles

Introducing Cece the Hermit Crab Elise introduces her new hermit crab, Cece, detailing the challenges of maintaining the perfect habitat:

"I have a new creature, Cece the hermit crab. And that hermit crab is a shocking amount of work." (06:14)

Doree's Dog Beau Doree shares amusing anecdotes about her dog Beau's nighttime antics and his selective awakening of her husband, Matt:

"He goes straight to Matt. He doesn't come over to me. It is so funny." (05:02)

Interview with Stacey Abrams

Introduction to Stacey Abrams The hosts introduce Stacey Abrams, highlighting her extensive background as a voting rights activist, bestselling author, and CEO of Sageworks Productions.

Early Life and First Plane Trip Stacey recounts her first plane trip as a 12-year-old Girl Scout, showcasing her early acts of bravery:

"I'm going on a plane. Oh my God, this is really far and this is really high." (17:11)

Children's Book: "Stacy Speaks Up" Stacey discusses her latest children's book, which focuses on empathy and advocacy. She explains the story's premise and its relevance to current social issues:

"Stacy Speaks Up is really about how we marry empathy and advocacy." (20:00)

Advocacy for School Lunch Programs Addressing the critical issue of federally subsidized school lunches, Stacey emphasizes the moral and educational imperatives of feeding children:

"Almost a quarter of children face hunger at any given moment. No child should be hungry in school." (21:03)

Empathy and Leadership Stacey elaborates on fostering empathy and leadership in the younger generation, encouraging actionable steps:

"Our job is to figure out what part can we play, how can we be a cog in the wheels of change in the right direction." (46:13)

Writing Process and Upcoming Projects Stacey provides an inside look into her prolific writing process, outlining her structured approach to developing novels and her excitement for upcoming projects:

"My first job is to figure out the genre... I convince myself that this is what's going to happen." (31:44)

Self-Care Practices Stacey shares her love for television as a form of self-care, mentioning shows like The West Wing and Reacher:

"Television is the most effective matchmaking of emotion to activity that I can imagine." (34:12)

Key Insights and Conclusions

• Activism Through Personal Actions: Stacey emphasizes the importance of taking actionable steps in advocacy rather than feeling overwhelmed by systemic issues. She advocates for focusing on specific issues that resonate personally and contributing meaningfully.

• Empathy in Leadership: Highlighting the need for leaders to blend empathy with strategic action, Stacey underscores that effective advocacy begins with understanding and addressing the immediate needs of those affected.

• Continuous Personal Growth: Both hosts and Stacey discuss the significance of personal self-care routines in maintaining overall well-being, especially amidst activism and professional responsibilities.

• Community and Collaboration: Stacey reflects on the importance of being part of a community of writers and activists, where collaboration and shared visions drive progress and innovation.

Notable Quotes

• Stacey Abrams on Activism:

  "We need writers who are imagining nirvana, and those who are telling us what the dystopian future will look like." (38:36)

• Elise Hu on Self-Care:

  "I needed to renew my commitment to moving around at all because I had just not exercised." (54:10)

• Doree Shafrir on Personal Challenges:

  "I was panicking... fortunately, he had flipped himself back over. So Cece is still with us." (09:23)

Conclusion

Episode 351 of Forever35 offers listeners a blend of personal anecdotes, self-care discussions, and a profound interview with Stacey Abrams. The conversation not only provides valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs of personal health and pet care but also delves deep into the realms of activism, leadership, and the power of storytelling. Stacey's perspectives on empathy, advocacy, and continuous personal growth resonate strongly, offering inspiration for listeners to take actionable steps in their own lives and communities.

For those interested in self-care, activism, or the intricacies of writing, this episode serves as a comprehensive and engaging resource, encapsulating the essence of caring for oneself while striving to make a meaningful impact in the world.

Transcript

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[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know, Elise, I was just looking at my calendar for next week and I realized I have my like 6 month check in with my dermatologist about how my hair regrowth stuff has been going.

[Elise Hu]

How has it been going? What will you be telling your dermatologist?

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, he's gonna, like, take pictures. He has some, you know, fancy camera that takes like close up pictures of your hair. So it's not just gonna be like, how are you feeling? It's gonna be like, let's compare the pictures. So I'm really curious to see what that look, it feels to me like I have more hair. Like my hair, I'm losing less hair and I have hair growing in.

[Elise Hu]

Great.

[Dory Shafrier]

I've also noticed my eyebrows getting, like bushier.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah, we, yeah, I think we.

[Dory Shafrier]

Have this conversation that's Great. Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So I'm. I'm just really curious to see whether it's like, psychosomatic. Like, is it. Am I. Is my hair really growing or. You know what I mean? So I will report back because I will be seeing him in a few days.

[Elise Hu]

Was this an extension of postpartum hair loss or a new episode or, like, happening, or were you noticing it was happening over time?

[Dory Shafrier]

So I definitely had postpartum hair loss. And then I feel like it sort of stabilized. And then I felt like I, like, especially within the last, like, year, year and a half, I was losing. I. It felt to me like I was losing a lot more hair. And when I went to my dermatologist about it, at first he was like, oh, it's probably a telium effluvium, which, like, is brought on by stress usually. And I had. I had had an episode of that before, like 15 years ago. And your hair generally grows back from that. So for if it's just that they're like, okay, we're like, just chill and it'll come back. But he was like, let me see if I see any, like, female pattern hair loss. And he, like, took out his, you know, loop and inspected my scalp. And he was like, okay, I do see some. So minoxidil, like, will work for you. I think if you have a teal neum, there's no point in taking minoxidil. Right. But if you have, like, actual hair loss, then it is so. But he was like, it's going to take probably six months for you to see any effect. Like minimum four to six months, he said. And I guess he says that because people get discouraged when they don't see, like, immediate results. Understandably.

[Elise Hu]

So here we are.

[Dory Shafrier]

And here we are six months later, which is the moment of truth. It's the moment of truth, so we'll be able to see what is going on. I do really think, though, that it is working, which is amazing and very exciting for me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And are you still happy with the darker hair? I think you look great.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, thank you. Yes. Although I think what has also been happening. I think I mentioned this on some episode of the Pod, but I think because I am growing more hair now, I'm getting more grays because I'm just getting more hair.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So I think I might go get it, like, colored again. Although I am kind of due for like a touch up anyway, so we'll see what happens.

[Elise Hu]

It's crazy, all the diagnostic tools available to us these days.

[Dory Shafrier]

It really is Fascinating.

[Elise Hu]

I. I was told I went to my dermatologist, and she was like, wait, so this has happened to you before? Because I mentioned this happened to me during COVID and she was like, yeah, it's probably stress. Just, like, watch it for a few more weeks and maybe it'll stop. And then it did kind of stop, because, remember, I was complaining a few months ago, like, around January 20th, that my hair was coming out a lot.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So I'm not losing a bunch of hair anymore. So I guess I've stabilized. Or I've gotten used to my new reality of living in 2025America. Or as. Or my body is just, like, accepting it. It stopped. It stopped. Like, trying to eject. I don't know. I don't know. I want to get to our guest today because it's the tireless and heroic Stacey Abrams. But just before that, my pet chronicles have been a big part of this show. And no, the golden retriever Himbo dog has not swallowed anything new. But we do have a hermit crab. Now, I'm not sure if we talked about it yet, but we do have a new creature, Cece the hermit crab. And that hermit crab is a shocking amount of work. And I have not had more anxiety keeping a creature alive in my home than this, like. Than this moment of having to care for a hermit crab, like, taking care of any of the babies even when they were newborns, and I didn't know who these little creatures were, was not as stressful as my hermit crab and its crabitat because there's, like, a certain amount of humidity.

[Dory Shafrier]

Crabitat?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, like, it's a real thing. And I only call it a crabitat because I now spend a bunch of time on hermitcrab Reddit to figure out what's going on with Sisi and, like, how to maintain his crabitat, because you have to keep the humidity at, like, 70 to 80% inside the tank, but then our outside air is not that. And so I have to make sure the tank is, like, super sealed, and then sometimes spray it. And then I actually have to moisten the substrate so there's, like, kind of the bedding inside, and I have to make sure that that is the right level of moisture. And then yesterday I went downstairs to check on him, and he spends a lot of time kind of just under buried under things, just disappearing himself. And so I don't know if he's depressed because hermit crabs are supposed to be social. And if anybody has heard my episode of Normal Gossip. So I think last Year or the last season of Kelsey McKinney hosting normal gossip. The normal Gossip story that she shared with me happened to involve a hermit crab. And I have hermit crab trauma from my childhood because my childhood friend of me, Amanda, I had her over for a sleepover, and she killed my hermit crab. She, like, dropped it out of the shell. And so I never had a hermit crab again until it was Luna's birthday sleepover recently, and she got one as a gift. And now I'm having to keep Cece alive, and it's creating all of this anxiety for me. But anyway, long story longer. I went down to check on him yesterday in Luna's room, and he was on his back in his shell, and, like, oh, no. Right? And I immediately started panicking. My eyes were watering. I didn't know what to do. I, I, I didn't know if he was alive. And I didn't know how to wake him because I also didn't want to pick him up because I have so much trauma around hermit crabs. I was like, what if I pick him up and he falls out? And so, so then I sent a series of texts to my friend Jen and Drew and Rob, and I was like, somebody come over and help me flip my hermit crab.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God.

[Elise Hu]

Eventually. So I went away, and to do all my texting, I went back in there, and I didn't want to find him in the same place. And thankfully, he had flipped himself back over. So cece is still with us. Cece is still with us. But this is a lot. Growing all the time. I know.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is a lot. This is a lot of stress.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I feel unburdened now that I have been able to share.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I'm glad you were able to share that we have not acquired, hired any more pets.

[Elise Hu]

God bless you for not. Because who needs more creatures?

[Dory Shafrier]

Honestly, Beau has had, like, a little bit of an upset stomach the past couple nights, and he's been waking Matt up, like, every hour to go outside. He's, like, otherwise in good spirits and, like, going on walks and stuff. But anyway, the point is that it's funny to me that beautiful goes straight to Matt. He doesn't. He doesn't wake me up. He goes straight.

[Elise Hu]

He knows not to wake you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, he knows not to wake me. And he, like, whines, and he paused at him, and he's like, you better get your ass up. And he does not even come over to me. It is so funny. So sweet dog. I know. I'm like, oh, thank you, Bobo. You let me Sleep. All right, well, we should get to our guest who, you know, I love. I love a guest who is like super accomplished and amazing, but who you just have like a totally like quote unquote normal conversation with. Like it felt like you were just chatting with a friend. Yeah, it felt like she was a.

[Elise Hu]

Third host of Forever 35.

[Dory Shafrier]

Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Come back anytime. Stacey Abrams.

[Dory Shafrier]

And she is someone who has been on my like dream list of guests for so long. So it just, it was like a pinch me moment for me to get to talk to her. So I was just really, really, really excited to talk to her. And she did not disappoint.

[Elise Hu]

Like did not lived up.

[Dory Shafrier]

She came my high expectations.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely.

[Dory Shafrier]

The only thing I wish I had asked her, I wish I'd actually talked to Matt before we talked to her because she did mention spoiler that she is a Star Trek fan. But what I did not know is that she has actually been on Star Trek.

[Elise Hu]

So wild.

[Dory Shafrier]

Which is wild. Like she is such a super fan. She's such a known super fan that she been on the show. So next time she comes on, I will ask her about that. Before we actually like formally introduce her, I just want to remind everyone Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. You could follow us on Instagram @Fever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35 if you want to hear more of just Elise and me. Just like shooting the chopping it up. Yep. Check out our Patreon. We do these casual chats every week where it's just us chatting away and that'[e-mail] Forever35. We have our favorite products at Shopmy US Forever35. Our newsletter is at Forever35podcast.com Newsletter and we love getting your texts and voicemails and emails for our mini apps. You can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com Honored.

[Elise Hu]

To introduce Stacey Abrams, a voting rights activist and the number one New York Times bestselling author of While Justice Sleeps. Our Time is now Lead from the Outside and the NAACP Image Award winners Stacy's Extraordinary Words and Stacy's Remarkable Books. She's a very prolific author, as you can tell. She is also the CEO of Sageworks Productions and Entertainment Production Company. A tax attorney by training, she served 11 years in the Georgia House of Representatives, seven at. As minority leader, she has launched multiple organizations devoted to voting rights and tackling social issues at the state, national and international levels. Committed to the pursuit of equity, Stacy works to break barriers for young people, people of color, and the marginalized through her work in the public, nonprofit and corporate sectors. She holds degrees from Spelman College, the LBJ School of Public affairs at the University of Texas, and Yale Law School. She's also just a standout.

[Dory Shafrier]

Forever35 Guest oh, amazing. All right, we are going to take a short break and we will be right back with Stacy. If you run a small business, you know there's nothing quote small about it. It's kind of all consuming. From the time you started, every day there's a new decision to make and even the smallest decisions can feel kind of massive. But Shopify helps with all of that. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. Shopify makes the marketing minefield easy with built in tools for running social media and email campaigns so you can find new customers and keep them. And if you're looking to grow your business internationally, Shopify has global selling tools to help you in over 150 countries. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Sign up today for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com forever35 all lowercase that's one month for just $1 at shopify.com forever35 shopify.com forever35.

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[Dory Shafrier]

See full [e-mail] Stacey Abrams welcome to Forever35. You've been on our like wish list of guests for a very long time. So it's really great to get to see you. We were just talking. Elise is going to be in Scottsdale, Arizona for the weekend and you were saying you went to Scottsdale the first time you ever went on a plane.

[Stacey Abrams]

I did. So I was a 12 year old Girl Scout at 12 or 13 and I was selected to go with the Girl Scout troops. We were sent to this conference and there was some disagreement with some of the parents about my inclusion that may or may not have been race based. And so they all left me. They left the other families. Other Girl Scouts went and they didn't tell my parents. And so we get to the airport ready to go with everyone and they'd taken a different flight. And so I argued with my parents. My mom and dad were righteously indignant. Unfortunately for them, they were civil rights activists as teenagers. So when they told me we should just go home, I was like no, you raised me better. I'm going anyway.

[Elise Hu]

Nice.

[Stacey Abrams]

Because I'd never been On a plane and I didn't know what I was talking about. And so they agreed to let me go. So I'm like, I'm going on plane. Oh my God, this is really far and this is really high. And what was I thinking? And then we had like this weird layover in Wisconsin, but we finally get there. And so, yeah, my very first plane trip was an act of, you know, bravery, stupidity, whatever you want to call it. And I went to Scottsdale, Arizona. It was lovely and I made a lot of good friends there. And I did not blame the kids on the trip. My, my Girl Scout troop members were awesome. They were fantastic.

[Elise Hu]

Sure.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah. This was all, you know, above the age of 18 set of decisions and they were, they were very kind and the Girl Scouts always took great care of me. So.

[Elise Hu]

Wow. We just totally stumbled on that story.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, that's a great story.

[Elise Hu]

And I feel like it hasn't been told before I mentioned it.

[Stacey Abrams]

I usually mentioned it in passing. It's, you know, it's one of those things where after a while you don't want to, you don't want to seem like everything is a moment of trauma and learning. But, you know, I've had a few experiences.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is kind of a good intro to your new book, your new children's book, which is called Stacy Speaks Up. We usually start by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have, but I feel like we can get to that in a little bit because this is such a good segue into what your book is about. So do you want to just tell our listeners a little bit about the book and, you know, why you wanted to write it and kind of what you hope people take away from it.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you. So Stacy Speaks up is the third in the Stacy series. And the first one, Stacy's Extraordinary Words, was about perseverance. The second one, Stacy's Remarkable Books, was about difference and how books bring us all together. And Stacy Speaks up is really about how we marry. Empathy and advocacy. And so little Stacy's in the cafeteria hanging out with her friends and she realizes that not everyone has a chance to eat. She fumbles the ball, so to speak, in trying to respond, but she knows it. And she decides to figure out how to do something about it. And so we watch her on her journey with her friends as she learns to take action and find her voice. But also that you can't solve other people's problems for them. And sometimes your job is to create space for folks to come in and solve them themselves. And I do all that in a really short book for kids.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And what an important story. It's also really timely, Stacy, because it is about federally subsidized meals.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And I think it's some 12 million American kids that benefit. What is going on with federal funding for school lunches right now under this administration or under the next congressional budget? Because I'd love to know if we can do anything if they are under threat.

[Stacey Abrams]

Absolutely. So let's be clear. In the United States, almost a quarter of children face hunger at any given moment. And one of the ways as a society we have mitigated that hunger is school lunch. Subsidized school lunch. For some it's free. For others, it's subsidized, and they don't pay the full price. But the point is, no child should be hungry in school. One, it's morally wrong. Two, it's inefficient. Hunger is one of the leading predictors of the success of a child in a classroom. If they are too hungry to learn, we're going to pay for it later. So let's feed them. Unfortunately, right now, this administration has become very hostile to feeding children. And so we have watched through the usda, and just to be clear, usda, the United States Department of Agriculture, controls and administers the program. So we've seen slashing of funding that helped food banks provide food to children. And now what's on the chopping block is actually providing the subsidies that states rely on, school districts rely on. The problem is that we are going to have a generation of children who have been literally starved for education because they can't take care of themselves. So you can call your congressional member. This is not a partisan issue, so do not decide. Oh, I'm not going to call them because I didn't vote for them. Don't tell them you didn't vote for them. Call them anyway. You should also call the school board members, because school board members have direct responsibility. Call your state legislator. Often these programs can be supplemented by state action. So make sure that no matter what level of government, they're putting children first, and make sure your kids know what you're doing. Because the other way we solve these problems is by letting them understand, not the nitty gritty, but the intention that we care about them and we care about their hunger, so we're going to do something about it. Often as adults, we want to do the thing to fix the problem, but we forget that the problems keep coming back. And so this is a moment to help your kids understand and there's a great book to help walk you through it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned. Exactly. You mentioned marrying empathy and advocacy and these being such crucial lessons for young people. I think a lot of us are feeling this sense of guilt about the country or the world we're leaving for the next generation. What message do you want to give the young people? And what kinds of conversations might kind of help us with modeling or leading with empathy with our kids?

[Stacey Abrams]

So we started this conversation about my time in the Girl Scouts. And what was important to me was when I landed in Scottsdale, the story had gotten to some adults about what had happened. And the first responsibility was to acknowledge that mistakes were made. Too often as adults, we like to pretend that no one made a mistake. Kids know the difference. They may not know whose fault it is, but they know something's not right. So our first responsibility is honesty. It's honesty contextualized for the age of the kid, but we still have to tell the truth. The second is then remorse. Like, not only did this happen, but we're sorry. Kids need to learn that saying I'm sorry is okay, especially from adults. There are a lot of people in prison because they didn't know how to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. And so they. They create these complex webs of. Of lies, and, you know, they try to hide from the consequences. Let's show remorse. And then the next step is how do we remedy the problem? And so sometimes the remedy is, I hurt you, I'm going to do something nice for you. And at the policy level, it is, this is what you should have gotten. So let me work with you to make it so. But it's insufficient to just complain or blame. We have to be engaged in trying to do something, but where we sometimes get caught is that if we can't do everything, we don't do anything. Everything Everywhere, all at Once is a great title for a film. It is a terrible mission statement. And so our job is to do something somewhere soon. So when you see a problem, when you are in the midst of a tyrannical overthrow of the American government, for example, your job isn't to go to Washington unless that's where you were headed. But you can go to a food bank and make certain that someone who's hungry has help. You can go to a shelter because they're slashing the money for domestic violence shelters. Go and make sure you're volunteering. Find the issue that matters to you, and if it's age appropriate, take your kid so they can see what you're doing. And if it's not age appropriate, then tell the story in vague terms about how you were concerned about something, and this is what you did about it. Kids understand empathy. They understand action. What they don't always get is that they can do it, too.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, it just. You. You dredged up an old memory for me, Stacey Abrams. I remember when I was 11, it was the great flood of 1993 in St. Louis, where I grew up, and my parents took me out sandbagging or to fill sandbags, you know, and it was just this sense that we had a. We had a civic responsibility. We had a responsibility to each other.

[Stacey Abrams]

Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Even if our house wasn't threatened directly.

[Stacey Abrams]

Exactly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, we have been talking about your new children's book, but I am also a big fan of your thrillers. Yes. So, first of all, when is the next Avery Keane book coming out?

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, I'm glad you asked. It's called Coded justice, and it is Avery. She's finally in the dream job she's imagined. She's at a law firm making a lot more money than she's made before. But she can't stay out of trouble. And so she takes on the client. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, to be fair, trouble often finds her.

[Stacey Abrams]

In this case, she's trying to do her job. So she's got a client. She's an. She's an internal investigator. She's working for a big company that's about to go public. And it just so happens that there was a mysterious death before she got there. And it may be. And she might have to work with her best friend, her other best friend, and her boyfriend to solve whether or not this was an inside job or if there's something wrong. And there is a ghost in the machine. It's one of the most fun books I've gotten to write in a really long time. And it comes out in July.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my goodness.

[Elise Hu]

Great pics.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, this is very exciting. If you have not. I'm addressing this to our listeners. If you have not read Stacy's two thrillers and she has her third coming out in July. They are so great. I love a mystery. You know, I love the. These kind of like, political intrigue thriller books. So this was, like, so in my lane that, you know, when they came out, I was like, yes. And they're just so. They're so good. I also was like, oh, I really hope this is good, you know, because, like, like, you want it to be good. Like, you're really hoping it's gonna be good. And then it was so good. So I'm very excited to hear that the new book is coming out. Your books, they always feel so of the moment, and I'm wondering, like, how do you draw on what's going on in the world and how do you kind of bring it into the plot and the characters? Like, how does that work for you?

[Stacey Abrams]

So my very first book was actually about environmental justice issues. It was based on my ex boyfriend's dissertation, and I decided to take some chemical that he discovered. The relationship didn't work, but the chemical was good anyway, so I turned it into this novel. And since then, I've always wanted to take complex topics, interesting ideas, problems that we're not really thinking about in the everyday zeitgeist, and make it accessible. So I use romance to talk about ethnobotany and forensic psychology. And the Avery Keane books for me are another way of doing that, because the world is complex, but it's accessible. And so I try to take big hairy problems that nobody wants to spend time learning about and then bring it into a space where you can have fun in the adventure and if you finish it, knowing more. So in Avery's second outing in Rogue Justice, I dived into cryptocurrency, the frailty of the electric grid, and the FISA courts. But it's a lot of fun. In the very first one, I did bioethics and genomic research that I wrote like 10 years before we knew we could kill people with diseases like that. So I try to do things that are interesting, that feel complex and that feel out of reach. And my job is to pull it closer, to make it interesting and fun and exciting to learn about. I want experts to read my books and think that I respect them, even if I'm not completely accurate about what I know. And I want the average reader to feel like they are more grounded in a topic. And as a writer, if I can do all of those things while making your heart pound and your pulse race. And you know, if you're in my romantic suspense, you want to. You want him to come for you. And if you're in my legal thrillers, you're really excited about who dies. But the whole point is I want you to enjoy the journey, but. But end it with the realization that you two are entitled to this information, this knowledge and these opinions.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

You are such a prolific writer. I want to know if it comes easy for you or is it A struggle. And then a little bit just behind the curtain on the process. Are you an outliner or do you just stream of consciousness? Tell us a little bit more about how you approach writing since you have put out so many books now.

[Stacey Abrams]

So my first job is to figure out the genre. So I have lots and lots of ideas, and there are different vehicles for the stories I want to tell. So once I figure out which genre I want to be in, my next job is to tell myself a story. So I usually write a one pager where I say, this is what I think is going to happen. Here are the characters that I know. And then once I've done that, I do an outline and then write a longer synopsis to myself. And then I storyboard. So I lay out every single chapter. I am lying to myself in that process because I'm like, oh, this is linear. I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do this. And so I convince myself that I know what I'm going to write, and I believe it as I'm doing it, I am convinced that this is what's going to happen. And then I start writing, and the characters are like, whatever, here's what we're going to do now. So Coded justice started out with a very different protagonist or antagonist and a different outcome. But I really like what we figured out. I am a conduit for my imagination, and luckily, I can type. I enjoy the process. It's not. I can't say it's not hard. I write pretty quickly, so there's an ease in that way. But I get stuck because I tell myself what I think is going to happen. The characters are like, yeah, I'm glad you had that. That's real cute. And then I have to figure out how to bring the two of us together or the five of us or the 10 of us, depending who's in my head at the time.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of problem solving along the way if you're letting the characters follow their motivations.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love how you describe, like, sometimes the characters just kind of do what they're gonna do. And I, you know, I've. I've written one novel, so I haven't written as many as you. But you also. You find that, like, you're just sort of like, yeah. Oh, they're just. They're just doing this thing. I didn't know they were gonna do this, but yeah, they surprising us. Yeah.

[I]

Or.

[Stacey Abrams]

Or you'll write a scene, you're like.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, she's so funny.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm like, wait, you wrote it down? But I was very surprised. Like, she's so clever. That was. Oh, that was really sly. And, like, I'm very impressed with what they do.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right. Oh, she made a good choice there. I applaud you.

[Elise Hu]

Shall we back up a little bit and ask you the question we ask all of our guests, which is, what are you doing to take care of yourself lately?

[Stacey Abrams]

So I watch an inordinate amount of television. I love tv. I love books. I love movies. I read voraciously. I watch. Watch movies. But television is the most effective matchmaking of, you know, emotion to, you know, activity that I can imagine. So when I am in this mood, I can go and find the show to tell me this. It's hit or miss with movies, but with tv, you can come back to the things that make you comfortable. You can challenge yourself. I love television. So right now I'm in the process of rewatching the West Wing for very obvious reasons, like, I want to.

[Elise Hu]

Such a different world.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, there's a. There's a comfort watch there. I just finished Reacher because I enjoy watching things blow up and meet people. Oh, I love Reacher.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

I need. Yeah. And I just finished the most recent season of the Diplomat, and then I am waiting for. Oh, and Black Doves is next on my list.

[Elise Hu]

Have you gotten into the pit yet?

[Stacey Abrams]

Yes. So, okay, so I like the pit. I love Noah Wiley. I love the characterizations. I can't watch gore. I do not. I have to spend half of the episode looking away. So away. I really, really would love to. I could do ER because we had FCC rules about what you see. Yeah, it wasn't streaming.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Like, I can't do this. So I. I read about all of this episodes. I watched as many as I could. But, like, at a certain point, you're really just trying to hear dialogue. I'm so glad to hear you say.

[Dory Shafrier]

This, because Elise has been telling me I should watch the pit. I should watch the Pit. And the other day, I was like, okay, but is it.

[Stacey Abrams]

Is it gory?

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, how gory is it? And she was like, well, there's a few things. So I. I believe you, Stacy. I believe you.

[Stacey Abrams]

I do have to turn away.

[Elise Hu]

I get.

[Dory Shafrier]

I get queasy.

[Elise Hu]

I like the characters so much. Speaking of character work, there's nobody who's not likable. There's nobody on that show that I haven't come to care about a lot. And so that's what. That's what really sold it for me. I think I need to give Reacher a try, too.

[Stacey Abrams]

Reacher. Alan Rickson is fantastic. Reacher is. It's eye candy. But it's also, like, you just. You're excited about what he's going to do. He's a wonderful hero. And it's just fun. It is really fun. I will say this story when you are watching the Pit. So I watched the last three episodes because I saw too many clips on TikTok and, like, I have to know what happens. Yes. There's a whole measles storyline. I'm like, I need to know. Anyway, so I've made my way through the last. And now I'm gonna have to go back and watch the whole thing. I'm gonna have to just kind of watch it like this with my hands over my eyes. I've never watched a full episode of anything on the Discovery Channel. Like, I just can't. I can't. Like, I don't care what. Whatever's happening inside me. Congratulations. Just, you know, let me know if I need to tell someone, but I.

[Elise Hu]

Don'T need to see it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So you have done. You have done children's books, you have done thrillers, you have done romance. Is there another genre that you feel like, you know what? I think I'm gonna tackle that.

[Stacey Abrams]

Science fiction. I love science fiction. So my other comfort shows are anything that begins with star and ends with track or Doctor who. Like, so I would love to write a sci fi novel.

[Dory Shafrier]

I would love to read one of your sci fi novels. So get on. That is what I'm saying.

[Stacey Abrams]

I would love to read one of mine, too. So, yes, I know.

[Dory Shafrier]

In all your free time, just, you know, churn it out. No, but seriously, I think. I think that would be really, really great. My husband is very into Star Trek, so, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

You share that in common. You share that in common. I want to ask you a little bit about community, Stacey, because you are a longtime lawmaker, you know, obviously quite active in government and activist circles, but you're coming to LA to be around writers and authors at the Festival of Books. I'd love to know what you get out of and why it's meaningful for you to be part of that community, the writerly, authorly community specifically.

[Stacey Abrams]

So when I was a kid, it's about 14, my mom warned me, she said, you don't want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. What I heard, what she meant was, pick something and focus on it. What I heard was, try everything. And the way that has made my life is that when people say, pick a lane, I've just decided I'm on a freeway. And that's how I operate. And so for me, writing is one of the lanes of my How I exist and how I meet the moment. It is important to me to be around writers and readers because the way we imagine a world is often how we create the next moment that we live. And so it is important for us to have writers who are tackling tough subjects, but also to have writers who are making it easy to get to the next moment. We need writers who are imagining, you know, nirvana, and those who are telling us what the dystopian future will look like, sometimes in the same book, but always they are committed to the craft of imagination. And especially in dark moments, being around people who are not bounded by what has been, but who are willing to press for more is important. And readers, because they want the hope that comes with writing, good writing. They want the ability to escape and find somewhere new to be. But they know they've got to come back eventually. And I want them to have enjoyed the process. And for me, it's not different than what I do in my civic world or what I do in my political world, because all of this is about the story we want to tell about who we are. And I'm just privileged enough that I get to do it in multiple lanes and with different media. And in this case, I get to do it through the written word and to share it. And so it's always exciting for me to be around those who do it better, who do it different, and who can help me figure out how to do it right.

[Elise Hu]

What are the books that you would take with you on to a desert island?

[Stacey Abrams]

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Carr. And I know it's a little controversial, but it is one of the best stories that I've read about the arc of a young person's mind and how they think about the world. I love Alan Lightman's Einstein's Dreams. He's a physicist who imagined vignettes of how Einstein arrived at his general theory of relativity. And it's lovely. Even if you don't think you care about science. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. I would bring Honest Illusions by Nora Roberts, one of my favorite romance novels ever. And I would bring the Intuitionist by Colson Whitehead, who is just extraordinary writer and whose love of language is unparalleled. And then, because I want to both challenge myself and worry, I would bring Parable of the Sower By Octavia Butler.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a great.

[Elise Hu]

Couldn't believe there was a fire. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't believe there was a fire in Altadena in the year 2025.

[Stacey Abrams]

I know.

[Elise Hu]

So wild.

[Dory Shafrier]

I wanted to go back to what you were saying about the freeway and the lanes on the freeway, because I feel like a theme that comes up often with our listener is kind of career pivots at midlife. And I was wondering if you had any advice for people who are kind of in a rut or burned out or maybe feel like they want to do something different with their lives. How do they kind of change lanes on that freeway?

[Stacey Abrams]

Sure. So I also write nonfiction, and I wrote this book called Lead from the Outside. And when I wrote the book, the first chapter is called Ambition, and the second chapter is about fear. And it was done in that order on purpose. Because our first job is to know that we have the right to want more. We have the right to want something different. We have the right to imagine our lives going in a different way. And that's ambition. And too often, especially women, are told that we get what we get or that you had a chance to figure it out. Now you're stuck with what you have. We don't want to fail. And so we tell ourselves that it's fear, but it's often that we don't feel comfortable with ambition. So that's the first job. The second is to know that you are really afraid. Fear is real, and people tell you to be fearless. I used to say that, and I apologize to anyone who heard me say that. Fear is real, but it can't be the only thing you feel. It's a good marker for what you need to focus on. I like to take my fear out to lunch, find out its favorite wine. Like, what is it like on its salad? Like, get to know your fear. Because if you know your fear, then you can prepare for it. And then the third is ask for help. When we are trying to change, we are so afraid of people being dismissive or being wrong that we try to do it all by ourselves. I have partners in almost everything I do, whether it's my editor or my business partner or my colleagues. When I'm in office, my campaign team, I do things with other people, in part because I've met me, and I should not be left to my own devices. Same what you get with a partner is someone who can help you issue spot, but can also be your cheerleader, can be your sounding board, but can also be the person who reminds you when it gets hard.

[Howie Mandel]

Why?

[Stacey Abrams]

You tried. So don't do it alone. Don't be afraid to do it, and don't limit yourself in believing that you can't do more.

[Elise Hu]

Well, one fear, especially at midlife, you know, both of us are in our 40s, a lot of our listeners are too, is that it's too late. Late. Like it's too late for a major change. Like, I couldn't go to med school or something now after being a journalist my whole life. What do you say to that?

[Stacey Abrams]

My parents became United Methodist ministers at the age of 40 by going to Emory University to get their Masters of Divinity. They had six children, only one of whom was in college. They had to work full time, go to school full time and make sure none of us did crazy, stupid things. So, yeah, but what I learned from them was, again, do the thing that you're called to do. Don't, don't change lanes. Don't switch your perspective because you think you have to do it, because if you don't, you're going to regret it. That solves a lot of problems. And, you know, I've done lots of different things. I try for things that don't work out. And that's the other thing. Be really, really good at not getting the thing you thought you wanted. I, I have publicly applied for a couple of jobs and been and had my application rejected. And there are those who are befuddled by why I'm not more depressed and why would I put myself out there? It's because I don't define myself by what I get. I define myself by what I try.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

And as long as you are trying for the thing that energizes you and excites you, something that has kept you up all night and something that would wake you up happy in the morning, then you have a responsibility to do it. Age is not that. That's not an excuse. I'm 51, so I'm older than you two, show offs. But I, I don't mind trying new things because I've seen what happens when I don't get it and it's not that bad. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I also know, you know, we, we want to stay away from explicit politics, but given the hostile government takeover that we' what do you say to Americans who are looking for leadership, looking for ways to take action, trying not to feel hopeless?

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, speaking of multiple lanes, I first encourage you to come to my podcast after you listen to every one of these episodes. We have a podcast called Assembly Required. And the whole point of the show is to say, here are these big, horrible, no good, terrible problems that we are having. Let's understand them. So we break down the problem into bite sized pieces and then we talk about, what do you do about it? What can you do? We can't fix all of this. I mean, this is a systemic assault. But systems are made of people. And so our job is to figure out what part can we play, how can we be a cog in the wheels of change in the right direction. But you can't do it if you get overwhelmed by the problem. And you're going to get overwhelmed by the problem if you don't understand it. So we do the work of really explaining what's happening. But then the second thing is I need everyone to pick the thing that matters the most to them, that they can touch. Not the, not the esoteric and not the existential, but the thing that matters. If it's hunger with kids, if it is gun violence, whatever your thing is. If you are dedicated to addressing your thing and your friends are committed to addressing their thing. That's why we want this government to work. That's why we want democracy to work. That's why we want civil society to work. It's because we want the things to work for others and we want our ability to work together to be real. The best way to defeat tyranny is to not let it defeat us. Yes, we want, want, you know, we want a leader to rise. We want a thousand leaders to rise. Sometimes we gotta put our masks on ourselves and we've got to find our way there. Somebody's gonna run for office. Someone's going to come up with a way to do something. But until that happens, it's not necessarily that we need new leaders. We just need people to show leadership.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

And all of us can show leadership. All of us can show this is how we can meet this moment. This is how we can push back against the overwhelming depression that this moment can bring or the numbness that we can feel. We don't have to have new leaders, but we can all be part of providing leadership.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. That's. It's very inspiring and I think a message that will really resonate with a lot of our listeners who are. I think there is the tendency to sort of feel like, oh, I need to take this all on and no one can do that. So I really, I really like that. Well, Stacy, before we let you go, one of our original Forever 35 questions was about skin care indulgences. So. So just for Fun. Totally different. On a totally different note, are there any beauty must haves that you feel so great about that you want to shout out?

[Elise Hu]

Shout out.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay, so I have really weird life as this podcast is revealed to all and sundry. I've got to do a podcast every week and I travel a lot and then I go outside and talk to people and they look at my face and they're like, what did you do or not do? So I have three. I rotate so I have Rare Beauty does really, really great products, especially for when you've got to go fast and you don't have a makeup artist who can help you fix everything. Fenty does fantastic. Like if you want to make sure you look hydrated and that you. You can't. We all can't smell as good as Rihanna, but we can look better than we thought. And Fenty is great. And then like, when I've got to do my high end things. Pat McGrath is amazing. I know she's going over to do even more amazing things, but she puts out some of the lightest weight things that make you look like you were born to somebody who actually had money. I was not. But I now know what rich people feel like when I can put Pat McGrath on my skin.

[Elise Hu]

What a great plug. What a great plug for Pat McGrath.

[Stacey Abrams]

Put this on and know what it.

[Elise Hu]

Feels like to be rich.

[Stacey Abrams]

I mean, honestly, seriously, it's a.

[Elise Hu]

She's.

[Stacey Abrams]

She's got some great stuff, man.

[Elise Hu]

And more importantly, it makes you look.

[Stacey Abrams]

Like you knew what you were. So the reason I like Fenty, Rare Beauty and Pat McGrath, they all make you look like you knew what you were doing and you didn't watch 17 tick tock videos trying to explain makeup to you. I still don't know how to contour, but I can fake it.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, you do have a lovely glow. So whatever you put on your face today. Yeah, was really. It's really working. So you mentioned your podcast. Is there anywhere else that you think our listeners would want to hear? You know, any. Anything else that you want to kind of plug that our listeners might want to hear about from you? Any other tour? Are you touring at all for this book? Beyond the LA Times Festival of Books? Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

So the books will launch July 15th. Thank you. First of all, I just want to say thank you to both of you. This was such a fun conversation and hopefully one day you'll have for us too. This is amazing. Amazing. So I am so coded. Justice comes out on July 15th and you should get it wherever you get your books. Especially bookshop.org because it's one of my favorite places to get books, there will be a book tour. So if you follow me, follow me on all of the things, it's usually Stacy Abrams. So it's Stacy Abrams or whatever symbol they put in front of my name. And follow me, listen to me, read me, and tell me what you need to know. That's the most important thing. My greatest plug is I am privileged to be in a position where I can talk to folks, but I'm better at what I do when I can hear from them. So let me know what you need. Let me know what you want to know more about. Let me know what you want to read about. And I know I've got to get a science fiction novel written soon, but right after I do that, and, Elise, I'm waiting for you to tell me what I've got to write for you. And then after that, y'all could be up next.

[Elise Hu]

Definitely not Gore.

[Stacey Abrams]

No.

[Elise Hu]

I don't want you to be telling me about the insides of eyeballs or anything.

[Stacey Abrams]

I don't know what they're like anyway. I close my eyes. So there you go.

[Elise Hu]

Stacey Abrams, thank you so much.

[Dory Shafrier]

This was so great. I really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you.

[Stacey Abrams]

Likewise. Thank you guys.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, I. I know that it is, like, Stacey's job to be charming and personable, but I really did feel, like, okay, like, we could be friends for sure. We could be friends.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Could watch Reacher together, if you want.

[Dory Shafrier]

To get into Reacher together. And, you know, we could watch the Pit and cover our eyes from the gory parts.

[Elise Hu]

She loves tv. I love how much she loves tv.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love how much she loves tv. I also appreciated that she also does not like gore. And she writes these amazing, like, mystery thrillers that are so, so, like, they're just like. She talks about how, like, she got, like, deep into, like, nerdy, like, FISA stuff and. You know what I mean? Like, like, it's. It's. They're all so, like, well reported and researched, but you don't feel like you're reading, like, a textbook or anything. And I'm. Yeah, I. I just. I. I just really adored her. So my intention this week is to become friends with. No, Just kidding.

[Elise Hu]

It totally makes sense.

[Dory Shafrier]

It totally makes sense. So last week I said, I just need to get through this week, and it was touch and go there for a while, but I think I. I managed. I managed. Achieved.

[Stacey Abrams]

Unlocked.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Achievement. Unlocked. I did. I did manage to do it and everything, like, went off Pretty seamlessly in the end. So despite like my near meltdown at not being able to refrigerate my. The cake for Henry's party. But that was fun.

[Elise Hu]

Ended up surviving. Yeah. And getting refrigerated. And so did you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. So I actually mentioned this in my tennis newsletter. Court date courtdate.subset.com that I, I've like fallen off the wagon a little bit when it comes to my strength routine and I need to like get back into. Is just so important for like every aspect of not just like my tennis game, but my life. So I'm like, I'm like renewing my commitment to strength training.

[Elise Hu]

My intention was sort of related last week which was just returning to movement because I needed to renew my commitment to moving around at all because I had just not exercised, I think for a week week. And I could feel it like my joints really hurt and then I'm more injury prone than I already am. And so I did. I'm really glad. You know, I think I'm coming off of four straight weeks at airports which in my non foreign correspondent life I'm usually not at the airport that many weeks in a row. I take a lot of trips but like I usually get a week break in between. So now I have a two week break which is nice. And in those two weeks I'm gonna like really use up all my class pass points and try to take a new class every day or try something new. But I did over the last week or so play more tennis than I usually do, which was great. We love that Rob was able to move around enough to play with me because he is still nursing that long term ankle injury from doing parkour in a bouncy house. Which jokes on Rob, really. I mean this week, this week my intention is to like is time management. It's time management because I've said yes to a bunch of like side things. And then I'm still managing my production company reasonable volume. And we have various projects that we're trying to bring in or pilot and start. And so I feel like I wish I had an executive coach or could pay for an executive coach because it's that level of like I need some scrutiny, you know, to understand my days better.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so I'm just gonna try and like blackout times or figure out some time management hacks. So listeners, if you have any good ones or books that you have read or methods that you follow, call in all the typical ways. 781-591-0390. True.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. All right. Well listeners, thank you so much for listening. Elise, Always great to chat with you. And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafreer and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone so much. We'll talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[1-800-Flowers]

Bye.

[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

Oh that's so sweet.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[I]

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