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- [00:00]
Dory Shafrir
Hey, listeners and fellow beauty lovers. It's Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu from Forever 35. And on our show we spend a lot of time talking about beauty news, products and treatments. But we also know that one of the real secrets to beauty is feeling as good on the inside as you do on the outside.
- [00:17]
Elise Hu
Absolutely.
- [00:18]
Dory Shafrir
And that's why we're excited to tell you about a new podcast from Jonathan Van Ness. You probably know them best as the beauty and grooming expert from Queer Eye, but on their podcast, Getting Better, they're exploring ways we can all become more confident, happy, productive, and invigorated. In other words, just a little bit better. Jonathan has been publishing their podcast Getting Curious for years, but this past March, their podcast relaunched as Getting Better. Now the show is focusing more on personal growth and wellness. And they're speaking to guests like Dan Harris, Gretchen Rubin, and Dr. Wendy Suzuki. So, you know, just a few of the greats. Getting Better is available now. Wherever you get your podcasts, give it a listen. You know, before I lived in la, I traveled to la and those trips back and forth showed me that they don't call it the City of Angels for nothing. The sky is blue, the weather is gorgeous, and the food is amazing. Los Angeles chefs and mixologists draw inspiration from their varied cultural backgrounds and the city's diverse neighborhoods, making for a really exciting food scene. From game changing taco trucks to Michelin stars. If you're not a foodie, LA also has diverse cultures and communities that collaborate and mingle, elevating new voices in art, music, film and comedy. Did you know that Los Angeles has more museums and theaters than New York? From trailblazing street art to world class museums, art is everywhere in la. Plus, LA knows how to put on a show. The worlds of sports and entertainment collide to create the kinds of events that could only happen here. Wherever you are in the city, you're never far from the next only in LA moment. Find more ways to love LA@discoverla.com hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.
- [02:16]
Elise Hu
And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
- [02:21]
Dory Shafrir
And we are kicking off Money Month.
- [02:24]
Elise Hu
Money Month is here. As you all know, we have been doing special themed series on various topics that our Patreon community has been asking for. We did Midlife and Menopause last fall. Earlier this year, we had a really great February with Friendship Month and and now we are kicking off a month dedicated to our finances, the way we think about money, the way society thinks about money, and we have a lot of great guests in store for you.
- [02:53]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. So today we have Rima Krais, who hosts the Marketplace podcast. This is uncomfortable and we will do a formal introduction of her in a couple minutes. But we are also having on some other amazing guests throughout the month, like Dana Miranda, who wrote you don't need a budget. I feel like that's gonna be a lightning rod episode. She says some stuff that will blow your mind. Amanda Clayman, who is a clinician specializing in money issues and host of the emotional investment podcast and Real Forever 35 heads will remember that Amanda was on our show seven years ago. Oh, my God.
- [03:34]
Elise Hu
Was it an episode in the double digits?
- [03:37]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think she came on at the end of 2018, so it was a long time ago. So she comes back. And then we also have Janice Torres, who is the host of the podcast Yo Quiero Deanero and author of the book Financially Lit. They all address different things about money, different things about personal finance. They answer some of your questions about money. They're all amazing in their own ways. And I don't know, I feel like this is going to be a really interesting month for people to, like, get into it.
- [04:11]
Elise Hu
I think we curated a real range of guests for this month too, because we didn't have just everybody who is a financial coach who can talk about retirement on, you know, we talked totally. Like, today's show is doesn't really get into the nitty gritty of, like, how to invest. Right. This today's show is really about our relationships with money and then how money affects our relationships. And then we get into money as part of a capitalistic system when we have Dana on. And then we get into, like more of your questions and practical applications for personal finance with the final two guests of the month. So it's a real diverse cast of characters and topics and like, we really hit various aspects, so I'm excited about it.
- [04:58]
Dory Shafrir
Before we introduce her though, is there anything else that's going on with you, Elise, that you want to talk about?
- [05:05]
Elise Hu
Oh, boy. Well, we came off the three day weekend, really loved having Kate on for Memorial Day, and I know a lot of y' all did too. Her book is coming out, I think this week. So congratulations and. And happy pub date to Kate, which tomorrow, I think tomorrow is her official pub date. I have been really busy with end of school year stuff. I still don't have A plan for summer vacation because I'm just behind. I really wanted to go to Zion. I think we talked about how I wanted to go to Zion national park, and then I've been scared because of Doge. And so we still haven't pulled the trigger on this.
- [05:50]
Dory Shafrir
So, Elise, in an upcoming mini app, we got a message from a listener about going to Zion post Doge. So I think you'll be interested in this content little preview of what's to come.
- [06:06]
Elise Hu
Oh, dear. Okay.
- [06:08]
Dory Shafrir
It's not bad. It's not.
- [06:09]
Elise Hu
Okay, good, good, good.
- [06:10]
Dory Shafrir
Spoiler. It's not bad.
- [06:12]
Elise Hu
Fantastic. Fantastic. The French Open is going on, so I'm in pretty good spirits. I'm taking part in a French Open pool. Yeah.
- [06:21]
Dory Shafrir
How's your pool going?
- [06:22]
Elise Hu
I gambled $10, and some of the. My picks have already gone down in round one.
- [06:26]
Dory Shafrir
Oh, no.
- [06:28]
Elise Hu
So everybody gets to pick three from the top 10 or top 10 seeds? Yes. And then you get to pick another three players from the 11 to 35 seeds, and then you pick an unranked player, and then, you know, we'll. You see how many of your picks are surviving by the end of the tournament. And actually by the end of each round, she calculates it. And after round one, four of my 12 were already out, So I still have. I still have two thirds of my picks standing, but I didn't fare the worst. There were people who had more go out in round one. A lot of the unseated players are kind of a crapshoot. A lot of people picked Naomi Osaka as their unseated woman, and she went out.
- [07:10]
Dory Shafrir
She gets the yips. I mean, she. She does known for getting the yips.
- [07:14]
Rima Krais
That's like.
- [07:14]
Elise Hu
Yeah, she's a reminder. Yeah, she's a reminder of just, like, how you can have a lot of physical power and technical skill, but then this. The game is so mental.
- [07:23]
Dory Shafrir
The mental stuff. All right, well, Elise, should we. Should we formally introduce our guest? Yeah.
- [07:31]
Elise Hu
I am delighted to. Rema Craise is the host of the Marketplace podcast. This is uncomfortable. If y' all haven't heard it, it's a narrative show about life and how money messes with it. She has a lot of, like, uncomfortable conversations with people about money, and she just dives into it. She first joined Marketplace in 2016 as a GA reporter. She covered everything from immigration and education to retail and employ. She's also been an ICFJ Bringing the World Home fellow. She traveled to Turkey to report on the lives of Syrian refugees for Marketplace. For that, and before that, she worked at North Carolina Public Radio and got her start in audio as an NPR Crock Fellow, which included reporting at wnyc. She is a graduate of UNC Chapel Hill, Go Tar Heels and is fluent in Arabic. She lives in Portland, Oregon where she spends her free time hiking, making ceramics and spoiling her orange cat.
- [08:31]
Dory Shafrir
She was great. I really, really like talking to her. And before we actually get to her, just a reminder, you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @February35 podcast. We always post some video clips on our Instagram so you can go check those out. Our Patreon is patreon.com/forever35. And I feel like not everyone knows that we do ad free episodes on our patreon. So for $10 a month you get those episodes without any ads. So if you're just like over the ads, this is, this is free.
- [09:05]
Elise Hu
Which we get. We understand if you are.
- [09:07]
Dory Shafrir
We understand. Our favorite products are at shopmy us forever35 and our newsletter is at forever35podcast.com newsletter and please call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here is Rima.
- [09:30]
Elise Hu
Reema. Thank you so much for joining us for our special money series.
- [09:35]
Rima Krais
I am very excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
- [09:38]
Elise Hu
I don't know if you have been listening to the show already, but I have. We start all our interviews by asking what you've been doing to take care of yourself lately. What are you doing that you would consider self care?
- [09:52]
Rima Krais
Okay, so I have two answers. One is I. So we've been. I've been working remotely now for like the last five years and it's taken me forever to figure out a morning routine and I've like failed and succeeded a million times. And this is only like these last six months is the only thing I've discovered a routine that has actually made me feel very grounded and happy. And it's very simple. And I think part of the problem was I was trying to do too much for too long. Like I'd be like, I need to meditate and then I need to journal, then I need to call my parents and then I need know. I. I know I was just trying to like put everything at the beginning of the day that was important to me. Um, and so now I just wake up, I, you know, do the whole thing where I don't look at my phone, walk around the Block. Even if just, like, for five minutes. Stretch. Like, I have a little mug, like my. My favorite purple mug where I drink tea out of every morning. Um, anyway, but just the consistency of that has been really. It's been. It's been really grounding. So there's that. And then I've recently gotten into crocheting. Do either of y' all, like, crochet or knit?
- [10:55]
Elise Hu
My middle daughter.
- [10:57]
Rima Krais
Oh, nice. It's a. It's really fun.
- [10:59]
Elise Hu
It looks hard.
- [11:00]
Rima Krais
You know, it's. No, it's. It depends on what you do. But I've. It was, like, a very unexpected thing that I came across a few months ago, and. Yeah, I guess it's almost like, you know, that feeling you get when you, like, just scroll through your phone mindlessly and you can just zone out? It's the same thing.
- [11:19]
Elise Hu
Yes, I get it every day.
- [11:20]
Rima Krais
Yes, I'm very, very aware of that feel. But it's the same. It, like, replicates that kind of feeling, but without the bad emotions that come with it. And I can just kind of zone out. And it's very repetitive. But also, it can be very. You know, it seems it's like one of those activities that can seem isolating, but it's also connecting in a lot of ways. Like, a lot of the things I've been making have been for friends, like, their friend, like, their babies and little gifts. So that's been really nice.
- [11:50]
Dory Shafrir
Knitting, knitting, crocheting are, like, such a good sort of other activity to do when you're, like, watching tv. Like, my brother and sister and I all swam competitively, and I just have such a memory of my mom sitting in the stands, just knitting. Like, knitting and knitting and knitting. You know, just sort of something by yourself. But, yeah, you're right. It's so much. It is so much better than just staring at your phone.
- [12:15]
Rima Krais
Yeah. And it's like, you know, you always hear about how art can be therapeutic, and I do think it's like a form of art to do crocheting. But. But I don't think I really understood until these last couple of years just how good it can feel. Like it can really force you to slow down and channel whatever you're feeling into something physical or visual or tangible. And it does feel like a kind of emotional release. And it's also just a nice reminder that, like, you can make things, you know? Yeah, I did that.
- [12:44]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah.
- [12:45]
Rima Krais
And that feels good.
- [12:46]
Dory Shafrir
What's your favorite thing that you've crocheted?
- [12:49]
Rima Krais
So one of my friends just had a baby, and they Named her Rima, which was really. I mean, I don't think it's so much after. They like the name and. But rima in Arabic means little deer. And so I crocheted, like, a little deer, which was really cute. And that was the first, like, stuffed animal that I made.
- [13:12]
Elise Hu
That feels advanced, too, to be able to.
- [13:14]
Rima Krais
Honestly, Elise, it was, it was. I, like, planted the idea in my head. I was like, I'm going to do a deer. And then multiple steps in the. I was like, why am I doing this again? This is. Why am I doing this during work hours? Like, what is going on here? It's like a project.
- [13:27]
Elise Hu
Yeah. It's like the dimensions.
- [13:29]
Rima Krais
It's a lot. I had to. Yeah. Unravel it multiple times, but it was. It was satisfying in the end.
- [13:36]
Elise Hu
Rema, you have been hosting a podcast about our relationship with money for 10 seasons now. Yes. So we wanted to have you on as a guide to talk through our relationship with our finances and how it affects our relationships in real life. So just to set the table, what is it about money that makes it so fraught?
- [14:02]
Rima Krais
Great question. Okay, so I, like you said, I've been doing this for 10 seasons, which is like, about five years, and I. I wanted something. So I wanted people to talk vulnerably and honestly about the relationship with money so that they could feel less alone in their struggles. And I think what I didn't fully understand until I started hosting this show is that when people talk about money, they're not just talking about money. It's usually a stand in for deeper desires and fears. Like, yes, they want their bank account to look different. But I've learned that what, you know, people are really craving is maybe freedom or a sense of safety or a sense of belonging or maybe a feeling of worthiness. And so they're in pursuit of the life or the feeling they think money will unlock. And. And those desires don't come out of nowhere. Right. Like, they're shaped by so many things. How we were raised, what we saw growing up, the messages we absorb from the world around us about success, about gender roles or class or race, and what it means to be secure or valuable. And so I think money can feel so fraught because, like, like I said, I think oftentimes you're not really talking about money, and oftentimes we don't really know where our, you know, beliefs around money are coming from. And so to me, you know, talking openly about money, it can help you get clear not just about your finances about, but about those Underlying beliefs and values and where they come from. And that is just as valuable as learning the nitty gritty on how to invest or budget. Because if you're riddled with anxiety or shame, if you're not really reflecting on what's driving you, then it's going to be a lot harder to build a healthy, lasting relationship with money.
- [15:57]
Dory Shafrir
I feel like something that has come up on your show, and I think something that a lot of people are sort of preoccupied with, is this idea of being, quote, bad at money. And I'd love to, like, unpack that a little bit. Like, what does that mean? And why do people think that they are bad at money?
- [16:16]
Rima Krais
Yeah, well, I think you're right. I mean, I feel like that all the time. Where I'm like, even the other day, I. I was like, why did I spend that much on this? Or why am I. Like, why didn't I think twice about before? Like, before I made these international calls that now, you know, I racked up, like, a $50 bill the other day, which is so stupid.
- [16:36]
Elise Hu
I also feel like. Learned it really. You know, it's not a practical skill that I really learned about.
- [16:43]
Rima Krais
Yeah, exactly. And. And so we don't learn about it, and we're not socialized to talk about money. It's often treated, obviously, as, like, a taboo. It's something that's too personal or too loaded or too impolite to bring up. And so because of that, I think there's a lot of fear and shame wrapped around it. You know, there's this fear that if our friends and family knew how much we make or what our bank account looks like or then those numbers would be. That they would become another way to be judged or categorized, that they'd somehow be seen as a reflection of. Of our worth.
- [17:18]
Elise Hu
And I think that's on both ends of the spectrum. Right? Like, rich people don't want to know people to know that they're rich. And then. And then on the opposite, too. Like, if you feel like you're not making enough money or that you don't have much of, like, you know, financial. Of a financial nest egg, you could also feel shame about that.
- [17:35]
Rima Krais
Yeah, exactly. And shame, in particular is such a powerful emotion. Like, I think when we carry shame about anything, but especially with money, it makes us secretive. Right? Like, in shame, it thrives, and it thrives in secrecy. It isolates us. It convinces us that, like, we're the only ones who are bad with money or we're, you know, we're exceptional in some way. And it makes us spiral even more. So I think to answer your question, you know, yeah, I've had so many conversations over the years about how those feelings, about how the shame or the fear or the avoidance can how we can just feel more inaction. And it can feel like it's easy to tell ourselves stories like I'm just so bad with money or I'll never get ahead. And those beliefs can keep us stuck. Especially if you've internalized the idea that your financial situation says something about your ability or your character.
- [18:31]
Dory Shafrir
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- [19:50]
Elise Hu
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- [21:32]
Dory Shafrir
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- [22:55]
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- [23:31]
Elise Hu
What do we do to counteract that thinking? What have you learned about what we can do to kind of get past that bias?
- [23:39]
Rima Krais
Well, I think first is just like, recognizing that money is just not about math and there's so much more to it. There are, like, I've been saying, the stories and the beliefs, and a lot of times it's what we've inherited, what we've. I remember I've been talked to a lot of financial therapists over the years. I'm always surprised to hear just how much of our relationship with money is driven by our unconscious beliefs. Like I was saying, like, the messages we internalized when we were younger, how we saw our families handle money, how our communities talked about the rich or the poor. And, you know, we. We connect emotions to money before we even have the words to describe those emotions. And we often carry those associations with us through adulthood, and then they turn into beliefs that shape our relationship with money. Right. And so I think the first step is just recognizing that that's a thing and sitting down with yourself and understanding where those beliefs come from. Like, literally, like, journaling and being like, okay, when was the. What was my earliest memory with money? And what did I hear my parents say about it? And what are the patterns that are emerging? And how does that connect to how I'm handling money today? I don't. Have y' all heard of, like, money scripts?
- [24:52]
Elise Hu
No. Say more.
- [24:53]
Rima Krais
So this is a thing a lot of financial therapists will talk about. Basically, they'll categorize, they'll boil down our relationship with money to four categories, and it's money avoidance, money vigilant, money worshipper, and money status. And so. And you can. So you can identify with one or more of those categories, but just briefly, like, money avoiders sounds like what it is. They tend to be people who avoid thinking about money. They're the people in your life who. I mean, honestly, I could fall into this category.
- [25:28]
Elise Hu
I think I do, too.
- [25:31]
Rima Krais
Yeah, I mean, I definitely do do. Like, I, you know, maybe they're the people who, like, put things in the shopping cart without looking at the price or who ignore financial statements, or maybe they overspend or they equate money with things like green and corruption. And then there's money vigilant. These are people who are, like, on top of their finances. They're, like, trying to save money where they can. They're probably more anxious. They're checking their statements. They're usually a little bit more private with their finances. There's money worshipers. Those are the people who, you know, put money up on a pedestal and they think it's, you know, money's the solution to all of their problems. They're more likely to put, like, work ahead of friends and family.
- [26:14]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [26:15]
Rima Krais
Money status seekers are more likely to link their self worth to their bank account. So they maybe they like, value outward displays of wealth.
- [26:24]
Elise Hu
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:26]
Rima Krais
Do you all identify with any of those? You said avoidance.
- [26:29]
Elise Hu
Well, and I have a family member in each of those categories, too.
- [26:32]
Rima Krais
Yeah, you can think of people, right? Like, you know, who falls in those categories. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, like I said, you can identify with one more than one of those. But I think it's just a fascinating way to reflect on your relationship with money and some of the messaging you may have picked up on when you were younger.
- [26:49]
Elise Hu
How do we use that understanding to make healthier financial decisions, though?
- [26:54]
Rima Krais
Like, I know.
- [26:55]
Elise Hu
Help me. Yeah, help me take this to the practical realm.
- [26:59]
Rima Krais
What do I do with this information? Honestly, I struggle with this myself, where I'm like, okay, I know that I have these beliefs. I think, you know, something that I've heard over the years is just how important it is. Like I was saying earlier to sit down, to journal, et cetera, but also to just like, create small financial habits. Like, they don't need to be. You're not going to change your relationship with money overnight. But maybe, you know, every Sunday, start like checking your bank statements. Make it into like a little ritual. Like, maybe you go in a certain place in your house or apartment and you put your favorite song on, you know, make yourself like a favorite drink. And you just like, for the next hour, you're like, I'm going to go through my, through my finances. And, and also I think, like, going back to just like recognizing some of those beliefs. I don't know about you all, but whenever I have at least somewhat like a little bit more awareness of what's going on with myself, like just naming it, it helps loosen, like the grip some of those emotions have over me.
- [27:59]
Elise Hu
That's true.
- [28:00]
Rima Krais
So. And it can at least like, lead me to more action. And it's also like whenever you feel that shame. And again, I apply this to parts of my life outside of money, but whenever I feel that shame creeping up, I'm like, okay, let me. I mean, it's like the basic therapy thing, but it's like Let me be more curious. Like, where is this coming from?
- [28:16]
Elise Hu
You know, like, yeah, like, sit. The discomfort.
- [28:19]
Rima Krais
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I think. Yeah, creating some. And have y' all heard of, like, money dates? That's, like, a big thing that people talk about in the financial community. Just like, if you're in a relationship similar to, like, what you're doing with, like, individually, but just. Yeah. Making it into, like, a. Yeah. A thing that you can expect each month or each week. And, you know, like you were saying earlier, Elise, like, we don't learn these things in school. And so I have to constantly remind myself, like, okay, if I want to be. If I want to get my financial life in shape, like, I have to be intentional about this. Like, I have to sit down and teach myself a little bit more about investing. I have to take it seriously. I have to carve out the time. And it's easy just to be like, I'm going to do it tomorrow or next week or next month. But the longer we wait, you know, we need to.
- [29:10]
Dory Shafrir
A lot of the harder. I feel like a lot of the conversations are around money in romantic relationships, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how people can approach money tension in friendships. Because I feel like that is something that's almost even, like, less talked about than, like, how to navigate money with your significant other.
- [29:34]
Rima Krais
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of the discourse is around romantic relationships. A topic that comes up a lot is just how tricky it can be when there are income differences in friendships. Like, yeah, you know, what do you do when a friend wants to go to a fancy birthday trip you can't afford, or you feel guilty for having more financial stability than someone close to you? And it's. It's like, it's really awkward, and it's hard when your financial realities start to diverge. Yeah.
- [30:00]
Elise Hu
And I remember wedding seasons being really tough. Like in my mid-20s, when everybody was getting married and I had to go to, like, six weddings a year, and a lot of them were destination, and I was sort of like, I know.
- [30:10]
Rima Krais
And it's like at a certain point, you're like, I can't. I can't afford this. Like, I can't keep doing this. And then at what point do you, like, cut that off? And then it feels insulting to the friend. It's hard. It's hard to navigate. And. And it can show up in smaller ways. Right. Like, who's splitting the bill, you know? Yeah. Who can afford a group trip? And it is easy to feel resentful or ashamed or left out. And, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, it's often because it's. It's not always just about the money itself. It's about what it represents. Like feeling like you're left behind or you're not valued equally or. Or on the flip side, like feeling like you have to overextend yourself to, like, maintain closeness. Actually, the. The reason, one of the reasons this podcast even came about, I was in my mid-20s, and I remember I was filling out a renter's application with my friend, and we had to put down, like, our income. And I remember glancing at her. Her application and seeing how much she makes. And then I kind of acted like I didn't see it. And I remember thinking, like, why? Why was that my reaction? And why is this something that we can't talk about? Like, I know the most intimate details of her life. Yeah. I don't know how much she makes. I don't know if her parents are helping her out. I don't know if she actually has that much in student debt. You know, it's easy to make assumptions about our friends financial situations and then use those assumptions as benchmarks for our own, like, perceived success or failure and then feel bad about ourselves. And so that's why I think it's so important to talk about it, even though it's really hard.
- [31:43]
Elise Hu
Have you gotten better at talking about money given the fact, given your line of work?
- [31:49]
Rima Krais
You know, it's funny, I. Yes, I actually think I have. I am better at having conversations. Especially like in everyday conversations, I am much more likely to be like, oh, how much is your rent? I mean, obviously I'm picking up on social cues and whatnot, but I don't shy away from talking with my coworkers or friends about my salary.
- [32:08]
Elise Hu
How do people react?
- [32:10]
Rima Krais
I had this moment on the phone with my friend the other day where I kind of like, explicitly told her that I think she could be making more money based on this information that I have about her. And there was a moment where I was like, oh, did she just react to that kind of negatively? Did I cross the line there? And so I do have some of those moments where I'm like, well, that's where.
- [32:30]
Elise Hu
Yeah, that's where, like, our money is tied into our self worth and like.
- [32:33]
Rima Krais
Right.
- [32:34]
Elise Hu
And it's like, if I heard that from you, I'd be like, oh, you think I'm worth more than I think I am?
- [32:38]
Rima Krais
You know, that was kind of. Yeah, that. But I was Trying to make it sound like a compliment, too. Like, oh, I know how much you contribute, and I know that you could be making more. But then I think it. I. Yeah, I was nervous that it actually made her feel bad about herself in some way, and so I apologized afterwards.
- [32:53]
Elise Hu
While we're on this topic of money and friendship, where are you on, like, loaning money to a friend?
- [32:58]
Rima Krais
I've never been in a situation where a friend has asked me to loan money, and so I haven't had to encounter that. But I. I think I would just be really explicit about our expectations. You know, you hear I have a friend who's like, if someone. If I'm loaning money to someone, that means I'm never going to get that money back, and I'm just going to accept that. And so I. And I like that mentality to some degree. It's like, you can't.
- [33:23]
Elise Hu
It's almost like an investment when you ask a family member for investment in your Kickstarter or whatever.
- [33:29]
Rima Krais
Yeah. And so, like, I would just be mindful of, like, how much money it is. How much. Like, if. If it's, like, a reasonable amount and I can be fine without it, then I probably would just. Yeah. If things go south, I wouldn't want to feel resentful, but I would be wary about going into business with a friend.
- [33:48]
Elise Hu
It's because that's not just financial. That's so many other factors and dynamics.
- [33:53]
Rima Krais
All right, cool. But I think going back to generally how to manage money and friendships, and this can apply to so much, like, so many other topics. But I think just talking about it vulnerably is key. Right. Just saying how you feel and not putting any blame on the friend, but just saying, I am struggling right now. I can't afford to go on this trip. And. And oftentimes, like, if they respond negatively, then that is a cue that probably, you know, maybe that friendship wasn't as strong as he thought it was.
- [34:32]
Dory Shafrir
Do you. Do you remember. I think this was a couple years ago. There was, like, this viral TikTok of this group of guy friends who were going on vacation, and they had this spreadsheet of, like, how much everyone made, and it just, like, obviously, like, raised all these.
- [34:49]
Rima Krais
Yeah.
- [34:49]
Dory Shafrir
Issues.
- [34:50]
Rima Krais
I remember this now.
- [34:52]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah. I'm like, I don't remember the exact, like, takeaway, but I just remember people were sort of, like, shocked that. But it was interesting because people were. They were talking very openly about money in a way that I think most people don't with their friends. So that was to me, that was like, an interesting aspect. Like, oh, you know, how much all of your friends make. Like, that's. That's unusual. But they also just seem like. Sure.
- [35:20]
Elise Hu
Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
- [35:29]
Dory Shafrir
I'd love to talk about your podcast. I'd love to talk about. This is uncomfortable, you know, now that you've been doing it for, what, five years? Ten seasons?
- [35:39]
Rima Krais
Five years.
- [35:42]
Dory Shafrir
What are some of the sort of patterns you've seen in the discussions on the show? What are things that kind of come up again and again that you've noticed?
- [35:54]
Rima Krais
Yeah, I mean, a lot of the themes go back to what I was saying earlier about how people don't realize just how much their relationship with money is shaped from different moments in their lives, including childhood. But also just, you know, I talked with a financial therapist once who labeled, who used the term financial, I believe, oh, financial flashpoints. So these are events in your life that shape your relationship with money in some way. So it might be something as simple as, you know, overhearing your parents arguing about money or your family experiencing a medical emergency. And so a lot of our stories will go back to those moments where things, you know, started to turn for them in some ways. And then also I, I think I've learned just generally, you know, talking to so many people, how irrational we are with our money. Like, you know, it's like our brains are wired in ways that keep us from making healthy choices, even if that's what we want for ourselves. And that applies to finances. And so it's easy to think that, like, oh, if I just created the right budget or if I did xyz, then all my problems would be solved. But, you know, big theme of this conversation is that so many of our problems are rooted in psychology and, you know, these cognitive biases, too, that we have. And so, you know, I think so many of us are resistant to change because our brains trick us into thinking that, like, if you change your financial life, you have to do it in this dramatic way and you're not going to like it, it's going to be hard, and you're going to suffer. And so I think a lot of times we have to circumvent those tendencies by doing all these things that we're talking about, which is talking about money openly with the people in your life, and also taking these small baby steps every day around our finances. And over time, we'll see larger changes. And so that comes up a lot. And also, yeah, like a relationships, just how thorny it can be.
- [37:57]
Elise Hu
What about surprises? Where have you been surprised by the way that money has affected us psychologically or relationally or even, I mean, or even like just juicy stories from this upcoming season. Oh, yeah, because we haven't heard it yet. So if you want to, like, hit some highlights, give us. Yeah. Give us an idea of what we're in for this season.
- [38:19]
Rima Krais
Yes. So I interviewed this couple and they were really interesting. They were listeners. And so we have this recurring segment on our show called Money Fight where we invite people to come on to talk about an issue and their relationship and how they overcame it as it relates to finances. And so there was this couple that just. They live in Seattle, they're both high earners, they work in tech, and they just could not see eye to eye on buying a home. Like, one of them, Chantal, the woman, she wanted to buy a home, like, asap. She was like, you know, I have the money. I could do it myself if I wanted to. And he was like, no, you're rushing us to, like, reach these milestones when I'm not ready. And so they kept just, like, going back and forth. And it led. I don't want to give too much of it away, but it led to some ultimatums and some difficult conversations. And then we get into their backstories a little bit and how their own kind of upbringings and relationship with money informed the way that they approached this big financial decision, but also smaller financial decisions, day to day stuff. And then we also paired them with the financial therapist to talk, like, to talk these issues through. And then I interviewed another couple. Well, interestingly, they did not start as a couple. They were co workers, and one of them was dealing with just having a really difficult time at work. The other one was single and decided to do IVF and have twins. And so. But she couldn't afford child care. It's a pretty wild story. And so their lives merge in this unexpected way where they, the. The guy decides to become a nanny for her twins, and then they fall in love in the process. I mean, I'm giving the whole story away, but it's really beautiful. And it, like, hits at some of these, you know, universal issues of unaffordable childcare and, you know, precarity at work.
- [40:09]
Elise Hu
And you're getting more into work as a topic, too. And that's where you and Dory kind of overlap, because Dory has. Is now writing a column for Slate about, like, work, work, life and offering advice for various thorny work questions. And so this tension between like needing to earn a living and put food on the table or pay for camp or whatever and being fulfilled, especially in our 30s and 40s. Where do you come down on that tension? Do you have a framework for thinking about it that could be helpful?
- [40:43]
Rima Krais
Yeah, it's something I think about personally of just, yeah, what kind of work do I want and how. And more importantly, like, what value is my work bringing to the world and how can I continue to do that? And I talk with a lot of people in my life who struggle with that tension, right, where maybe they're making a high. They have a high paying job, but they have some ethical qualms about the kind of work that they do. And, you know, there are no perfect answers for. But I think, especially when, you know, something I think about a lot is how our relationship with work has evolved over the years. You know, I think it started off in a lot of ways as a kind of religion. I think for a long time there was this kind of social contract of, you know, you work hard, you stay loyal to a company. In return, you get stability, you get a steady paycheck. And I think that kind of contract has been eroding for a long time now. And even if you're doing things quote, unquote, right, you can still lose your job, you can still, you know, face a lot of instability and that uncertainty. It's hard not to internalize that. Right. I talked with someone recently who was like, who got laid off. She was a federal worker and she was like, you know, I know, I know that this is not my fault, but I can't help but feel like I'm, I'm not good enough and that I did something wrong. It messes with your nervous system. It makes it hard to plan long term, and it's just, it's hard to have a kind of safety that we all are craving. Right. I think something I try to really embrace in the within, you know, my work, but also more broadly, is that security is not something that you can ever guarantee. And it's a really hard lesson. But it. There is like a kind of peace, I think, and recognizing that and not chasing after something that frankly doesn't exist. These topics are even more on people's minds these last couple of months, or, you know, with, with Trump's tariffs and all of the, like, financial chaos that's creating, which we can talk more about.
- [42:55]
Elise Hu
No, but the underlying idea is the same depending on, I mean, no matter what the circumstance, which is that security is not a guarantee. And then even, even the idea of kind of like being at one company for an extended period of time and having them appreciate your contributions and gift you with long term employment is not something that we can expect.
- [43:15]
Rima Krais
Makes you wary.
- [43:16]
Elise Hu
Yeah. So any, any final message before we let you go? I wanted to get practical with you. So are there any big takeaways that you want to leave us with to just think about or maybe even like do a little bit more digging or research on?
- [43:33]
Rima Krais
Yeah, there are a few things. So, yeah, I don't want to get too prescriptive, but I think there's some basic things we can do to make sure that we have a strong financial foundation. You know, the first is to create or bolster your emergency fund. You know, you want to have at least three to six months of expenses to buffer against a job loss or medical surprises or whatever. And then, you know, you often hear about how you want to keep your savings in a high yield savings account if you can, you know, 3 or 4% is better than zero. You know, being mindful about some of your bigger expenses. You want to avoid, I think, making larger long term financial commitments while there's so much economic uncertainty. And if, you know, I, if you are investing, I know the markets are really crazy right now, but just stay the course. You know, it's tempting to panic and when the market dips, but downturns are just part of the cycle, you know, and so long term investing is still one of the smartest things you can do. So just let that investment ride the roller coaster. But I think generally, you know, beyond the practical tips, I think one of the best things we can all do right now is just like, take a beat, you know, ask ourselves, like, what do we actually want? Like, am I, you know, am I in the season where I need to save more? If so, what am I saving for? And get specific. You know, I, I love this thing that there's a, I love this idea that I, that's often in the financial community, which is that money is a tool, right? It's not the goal, it's what helps you get to your goals. And so if you treat money like the endpoint becomes this, this never ending chase, this aimless pursuit. So if you connect your money habits to things that matter to you, like maybe you want to pay off your debt, or maybe you want to get a fitness coach, or maybe, I don't know, you want to help your parents. But it can give your financial goals real meaning and it makes you that much more motivated to do them or to, you know, Save or budget accordingly. And, you know, I feel like I've been talking a lot about how there's a lot of, like, fear and shame wrapped up in money. But. But it can also be, like, about pleasure and creativity and generosity. Like, there is value in spending things, like spending money on things that light you up. And so I think. Yeah, I think the goal isn't necessarily, like, austerity. I think it's about alignment.
- [45:56]
Elise Hu
Yeah. Well, Rema, thank you so much.
- [45:58]
Rima Krais
Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate you all having me.
- [46:00]
Dory Shafrir
This was great. Yeah, thank you. And I love your show. So thank you for.
- [46:04]
Rima Krais
Thank you so much.
- [46:05]
Dory Shafrir
I'm glad you're still doing it.
- [46:07]
Rima Krais
Yeah, of course. Thank you.
- [46:11]
Dory Shafrir
All right, well, Rima was great.
- [46:15]
Elise Hu
Thank you. Thank you, Rima, for coming on and kicking off our money month.
- [46:18]
Dory Shafrir
I love when we have people from, like, your NPR extended universe.
- [46:22]
Elise Hu
Yeah. I didn't know her prior to her showing up at my 40th birthday party, so I had never met her before, but I had this, like, blowout 40th the weekend before Russia invaded Ukraine. So it was this, like, middle zone between another COVID variant. And we finally, like, came out of that, the latest COVID variant as of February of 2022. And then it was before Russia invaded Ukraine, and there was, like, one magical weekend where people could come out. And that was my 40th birthday weekend. And, you know, I had friends flow, fly in from all over the country, and one of them from D.C. was like, can I bring my friend Rima? And the theme was, like, 1994. And so people really dressed up, and Rema showed up in a sunflower dress, and it's like hair clips and stuff, and like, maybe like a little one of those purse backpacks. She was all about it. Yeah. Good times. All right, intention zone. What was last week?
- [47:20]
Dory Shafrir
Well, last week was figure out Memorial Day. And I don't think we did. I don't think there was anything, like, earth shattering. Oh, you know, something that I did do without my child that was really fun is I organized a little, like, a miniature round robin for one of my tennis teams, and we had eight of us there on, like, two courts. And we played fast four format, which is like, you just played whoever gets to four games first.
- [47:49]
Elise Hu
Oh, fun. Okay.
- [47:50]
Dory Shafrir
Instead of, like, a full set, and then we rotated partners after that so everyone got to play with a bunch of other people. And everyone had so much fun. And we had, like, bagels after. And it was just. It was really nice. It was really fun. Just like a nice group of Nice group of ladies.
- [48:07]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [48:09]
Dory Shafrir
So that was. That was really nice. So, you know, survive Memorial Day weekend. This week is my son's last week of school, so. Yeah, I can't believe kindergarten is almost over. It's so wild and. Yeah, just kind of like coming to terms with that. I don't know. Feels like a big milestone.
- [48:35]
Rima Krais
So.
- [48:36]
Dory Shafrir
I don't know. I don't really have, like, a clear intention, but I'm just kind of like wrapping my head around all of that.
- [48:41]
Elise Hu
Yeah. It's such an overwhelming time of the year, so just be gentle with yourself. Take naps if you can.
- [48:48]
Dory Shafrir
Thank you.
- [48:49]
Elise Hu
Like a disco nap even, you know, because sometimes I'm just like, by three or four in the afternoon, whenever I've picked up a kid, I come back and I'm just like. Like, I need to close my eyes. So my intention last week, due to just being kind of creaky and getting back into exercise, was to foam roll again and to stretch. I did take a stretching class, so I guess I achieved my intention, but I haven't. I just don't like foam rolling and stretching generally. I just don't like it. Like, I'll go out for a run, I come back and I. That's not what I want to do. So I haven't been doing the foam roller as much as I'd like or I didn't do it daily like I wanted to. So I guess I'm one out of two on my foam rolling and stretching intention. This week. This week I want to. Oh, this week I'm hosting for Dory. I. How could I forget? So this week I'm really excited. I'll put as my intention to meet some new friends because Dory's friends are coming over to the backyard for a Dory birthday trivia night. And so I'll get to meet some of Dory's friends, which is going to be super fun.
- [50:06]
Dory Shafrir
I'm really excited.
- [50:07]
Elise Hu
Matt, too. And Matt's coming, I assume.
- [50:09]
Dory Shafrir
Oh, yeah, Matt is coming. I know. Okay.
- [50:11]
Elise Hu
I never hang out with Matt. I'm so excited to.
- [50:13]
Dory Shafrir
I saw he had an rsvp. Yeah, I'm really excited. Everyone's really excited. And yeah, Ari the trivia guy emailed me that he had finished writing our game, so.
- [50:24]
Elise Hu
Oh, boy. How many rounds are there? Are there a lot of rounds?
- [50:28]
Dory Shafrir
There's usually.
- [50:28]
Elise Hu
I'm so daunted by this.
- [50:30]
Dory Shafrir
I want to say there's usually like seven rounds.
- [50:34]
Elise Hu
Whoa. Okay. I'm just gonna keep drinking. I'm gonna drink through it.
- [50:37]
Dory Shafrir
The game itself usually lasts a couple hours.
- [50:41]
Elise Hu
Okay.
- [50:41]
Dory Shafrir
But it moves quickly.
- [50:43]
Elise Hu
All right, all right. I'm excited. It's gonna be good time.
- [50:45]
Dory Shafrir
And I know it seems intimidating to be with random people, but it's really fun. I feel like you of all people will like, be good with it.
- [50:52]
Elise Hu
I've just side note to the listeners, I've been giving Dory so much grief. I've been like, do I have to do this? Not the hosting part, the playing part, but I actually love trivia and I'm.
- [51:04]
Dory Shafrir
Gonna have a couple friends come and be on my team. And I was like, mm, mm. Doesn't work that way. I'm like, they're welcome. They might not be on your team.
- [51:16]
Elise Hu
You don't get to have a ringer.
- [51:18]
Dory Shafrir
Yeah, you will be with random people. So. Yeah. So I'm, I'm really excited about that. All right, well, that brings us to the end of our show. Thank you all so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone for listening.
- [51:42]
Elise Hu
Talk to you next time.
- [51:44]
Dory Shafrir
Bye.
- [51:45]
Elise Hu
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Dory Shafrir
Yeah.
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Elise Hu
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