Episode 365: People Like Me Better When I Cry with Jena Friedman

Summary

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Forever35 Episode 365: “People Like Me Better When I Cry” with Jena Friedman

August 18, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome comedian and writer Jena Friedman for a rich conversation weaving together self-care, grief, motherhood, the state of comedy, and the existential climate we find ourselves in. The episode moves from updates on pets and personal health, to Doree's tennis triumphs, and into a deeply candid and often humorous interview with Jena about her career, her latest standup hour, coping with loss, and the role of art and comedy in times of uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Hosts’ Check-In: Dogs, Biopsies, and Tennis (03:22–13:00)

• Elise’s Dog Health Scare (03:22)

  • Elise recounts her dog’s dangerous heat stroke during a group hike, emergency vet intervention, and the aftermath.
  • “My dog is alive. I think that's the top line. We are all alive here.” (03:26)
  • Dog’s history of swallowing foreign objects humorously revisited (“They did find the nose of a Care Bear in his poop, but that wasn't the issue.” (04:54))

• Elise’s Biopsy Results (04:58)

  • Elise shares relief over benign results and her unbothered mother’s texts:
    • “My mom was just like. She just sent me a thumbs up, thumbs up emoji because she just. She knew all along.” (05:53)

• Doree’s Dog Health Update (06:00)

  • Doree had her dog, Beau, checked for a lump and weight loss; awaiting biopsy but veterinary staff are unconcerned since it may be a benign lipoma.

• Tennis Triumph & Sectionals (08:38)

  • Doree’s 3.0 tennis team won sectionals, advancing to nationals.
    • “We won. We won the whole freaking thing. And…everyone really, like, rose to the occasion. I think people surprised themselves. I surprised myself.” (08:41)
  • Doree discusses mental strategy:
    • “You just wanted to play loose. You didn’t want to be too anxious about it…Did you feel like you were able to just sort of let things go and play nice and free?” (09:27, Elise)
    • Doree details how a tough early match made later matches easier to play with less pressure.
    • The team is renting a house for nationals: “It’ll be like a giant sorority house.” (12:00)

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2. Main Guest Interview: Jena Friedman on Self-Care, Comedy, and Grief

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Introduction & Credentials (16:51)

• Doree introduces Jena Friedman: comedian, writer, director, and producer, with credits on Borat 2, The Daily Show, Letterman, and multiple standup specials.

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Self-Care Practice: Tennis Revival (17:06)

• Jena’s Newfound Self-Care:
  • “I just got back into tennis…I’ve gotten really into it and that has been my self care.” (17:06)
  • Playing with senior players in Michigan brought unexpected joy after the L.A. fires.

Edinburgh Fringe, Comedy Goals, and Show Themes (17:45–24:09)

• Jena preps for an 18-day run at Edinburgh Fringe with her new (personal-focused) hour, “Mother Effort.”
• On the different motives for Edinburgh: honing material, gaining reviewers, and (sometimes) selling the hour as a special.
  • “This show’s a lot more personal than my past shows…but I know by the end of the run I'll have a really tight show…” (18:54)
• Discusses the unique, competitive nature of the festival (“There are 3,000 shows in the city over the month…It’s crazy.” (21:48))
• Recalls a crucial, positive review from a student journalist that led to a sold-out run.
  • “She got exactly what I was doing…the rest of the run sold out. And it just was so cool…when someone actually sees what you’re trying to do.” (22:58)

From Political to Personal: New Show Focus (22:59)

• Previous hours were deeply political, aimed at “a plea to not vote for Trump.” This new show is about becoming a mother and dealing with deep loss.
  • “If people can come away feeling better than when they went into a show, that’s really a goal of mine, especially for this project.” (24:09)

Motherhood & Industry Realities: The James Corden Incident (24:19–28:14)

• Discusses a widely-misquoted story about auditioning a new-mom set for James Corden’s show while postpartum.
  • “The note to me was…‘This is going to bum our audience out.’ And I was like, this is funny, fuck off.” (25:40)
  • Offers context—she was navigating postpartum exhaustion, industry pressures, and personal grief.

Grief, Crying Onstage, and Authenticity (28:16–32:23)

• Jena’s mother died when Jena was eight months pregnant; working out material around her grief became part of her healing process.
  • “Has it helped? I don’t know. Maybe it has helped me process it…When I am fully connected, it’s like you tap open a well and you can’t stop crying. And then it becomes like this weird performance art. But then I also feel guilty for crying so much. It makes the show—the audience loves it—but I feel like a hack or something.” (28:37)
  • She discusses the conundrum of “people like you better when you just cry,” versus a career built on writing sharp political comedy.
• Elise draws a parallel to public scrutiny of women showing vulnerability, referencing Hillary Clinton in 2008 (30:26).
  • “Like, you can’t win.” (30:26)
• Jena recalls advice from another comic dealing with loss, to “just lean into” the grief when it surfaces.

Family, Support, and Her Mother’s Humor (32:23–34:34)

• Jena shares touching and funny stories of her late mother’s wit and support—reading her book aloud to her, her mother’s sardonic feedback:
  • “Are you planning to do a book on tape? ...You should hire someone to help you on the performance.” (33:37, Jena quoting her mom)
• Describes her mother’s generosity and biting humor, even in palliative care.

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3. State of Comedy and AI: The TED Talk (35:50–40:29)

• On the End of Late Night TV:
  • “I love Colbert… but after having serious loss... it’s not, like, earth shattering. …everything seems like it’s ending.” (36:03)
• AI and Comedy: Jena’s TED Talk
  • She was relocated to a “family” panel, ironically opening her edgy set after a pediatrician.
  • Main point: “The more specific and maybe niche, unlikable, not profitable your content is, the less likely a machine will write it.” (37:36)
  • “There’s not going to be like, an A.I. Nathan Fielder.” (39:30)
• Irony of AI Summarizing Her Talk:
  • Doree finds an AI-generated “key takeaways” pop-up after Jena’s own TED Talk—missing the nuances of her message.
  • “I saw that. And also, it wasn’t even…there was an AI synopsis and it wasn't even accurate. I almost posted about it, but then I was like, I can’t.” (39:58)
  • Elise points out this ironically proves Jena’s point.

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4. Coping Tools for Hard Times (40:32–44:07)

• Jena on art, activity, and meaning in chaos:
  • “My son has really been an antidote to my grief…I think art helped me get through some of my grief…and then talking—acupuncture helped with my heartbreak. …The books make you feel less alone. They help you process your grief. They help you just cry when you need to cry.” (41:30)
  • Recommends reading, talking to those who’ve experienced loss, and engaging in physical activities—tennis brings memories and presence of her mother.
  • On perspective:
    • “I used to be way more doom and gloom…now I’m just like, okay, we could be entering into fascism. Who do I need to take care of?...taking care of people that are more vulnerable than you at the time. At times like this, I think that’s…tangible.” (43:24)

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5. Where to Find Jena (44:07)

• “I’m online. If you just type in AI. Type in a chatgpt. No, I mean, I post shows on Instagram, and I have a website..” (44:10)

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Notable Quotes

• Jena on artistic risk and grief:
  • “If I could cry on command, I’d have a lot more work in the acting phase. But it is weird. Like, it does feel weird having done this for 15 years and having worked so hard to write these political jokes…No one likes how much people like you when you just cry.” (30:06)
• On making real connections through art:
  • “When someone actually sees what you’re trying to do, so clearly, it’s like, that’s, like, why. That's why I do it. It's so cool.” (22:58)
• On AI-generated content:
  • “There was an AI synopsis [of my TED Talk] and it wasn’t even accurate. …It kind of inadvertently bolsters the point that you're making in the talk though, that AI can't capture what you're doing.” (39:58-40:22, Doree & Elise)
• On contemporary anxiety:
  • “I was a little worried about Late Night, but having been to TED, I’m like, late night is the least of our problems. We’re all going to die thanks to Palmer Lucky’s autonomous nukes.” (36:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:22–13:00 – Hosts’ personal updates on dogs, health, and tennis
• 16:51 – Jena Friedman introduction
• 17:06 – Jena’s self-care: rediscovering tennis
• 17:45–21:04 – Prepping for Edinburgh Fringe
• 22:59–24:09 – Transition from political to personal material
• 24:19–28:14 – On motherhood, postpartum comedy, and industry bias (James Corden story)
• 28:16–34:34 – Processing grief, performing vulnerability, and family stories
• 35:50–40:29 – Late night TV’s future, Jena’s TED Talk, AI vs. comedy
• 40:32–44:07 – Coping with chaos; art, books, and human connection in grief
• 44:07 – Where to find Jena online

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Tone & Style

Throughout, hosts Doree and Elise maintain their trademark blend of humor, warmth, and candor. Jena’s delivery is dry and witty, punctuating heavy topics with self-awareness and deadpan punchlines. There is an atmosphere of supportive honesty and a genuine curiosity about how we live, make art, and hold ourselves (and each other) together, especially in turbulent times.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode blends laughs and real talk, sharing practical and emotional lessons—particularly on resilience, the healing power of art, and why specificity (in comedy, grief, and living) is more vital than ever in a world that increasingly feels both fragile and surreal.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[A]

And today we have a guest who is one of those people that I've been a fan of for years. And then Elise just like casually mentioned her and was like, oh, do you know who she is? And I was like, do I know who she is?

[B]

I feel so bad. Yeah, I feel so bad that I wasn't more familiar because I had the exact same situation happen when I said, hey Rob, I called home from TED in April and I was like, I met this comedian and she's really cool and funny, and I think we're going to be friends. And. And I told him who it was. I said it was Jenna Friedman, who is on our show later today. And he was like, what?

[A]

Yeah, I love her. That's the appropriate reaction. Yeah. You were like, oh, I met this woman at ted.

[B]

That's exactly how I presented it. Yeah. But yes, Just such a witty and deadpan comedian and an awesome human being. And we'll be talking with her later in this episode. But first, we have a lot to catch up on. A lot to catch up on.

[A]

Do. Elise, how is your dog?

[B]

Okay, My dog is alive. I think that's the top line. We are all alive here. My dog is alive. He made it. Made it through a very scary heat stroke incident while he was on his dog pack dog hike with the dog walker that we hired to do it. And he's been walking with this dog pack for months, for ever since he was like a smaller puppy in order to help get his energy out. And the rest of the dog pack has been great. No incidents. But on Tuesday of last week, for whatever reason, two and a half miles into his hike, he basically passed out, like, tongue hanging out the side of his mouth and overheated. And by the time the rangers and the dog walker got him off the hiking trail and into the ER, the emergency vet, he was like 106 degrees. And so there was an apparently acting neurologically inappropriate. But he is home now. He's a little out of it because he's on a bunch of meds. And then his gastrointestinal system is a mess, though that has happened every time he's been hospitalized for foreign bodies that he eats. Surprisingly, no foreign bodies in his stomach. Because I thought all this must be.

[A]

That is shocking. Yeah, well, this must be complicated.

[B]

Yes. By some object in his stomach. Is it a corn cob? Is it a plushie toy? They did find the nose of a Care Bear in his poop, but that wasn't the complicating. That wasn't the issue.

[A]

The nose of a Care Bear, yes.

[B]

His main problem was that he overheated. He had heat stroke. So he is home. And that's good. And then I got my biopsy results back, and it's just benign cells, just as my mother predicted. So, yes, very good news over here. I still have to go to the doctor and maybe talk to a breast specialist to figure out, like, should we remove it anyway or is it one of those cases of just. We'll Just monitor it. And you'll just have to come in for more mammograms than once a year, but at least we know it's not malignant. So that was totally. I sent my mom a note and I was like, it's, you know, a cluster of benign cells, apparently. And my mom was just like. She just sent me a thumbs up, thumbs up emoji because she just. She knew all along. She told me, like, numerous times, like, don't worry about it. No, no. I had a lot. She was.

[A]

She was unbothered.

[B]

Yeah, she was so unbothered. And so when. When I told her, hey, I'm cancer free, she was also like, thumbs up.

[A]

That's really funny. You know, I forgot to mention that I actually took Beau in on Monday because he spent a week at his daycare, his boarded when we were away. His regular dog walker who, like, sometimes stays at the house was not available. So he was there. And on the last day, I was like, could you please give him a bath? Because he's, like, so gross. And then they called and they were like, hey, our groomer is also a vet tech. And they felt like a lump under his ribs. And we've also noticed that he's lost some weight. And I was like, he has lost weight. Like, I just took him in to get some vaccines, and they always weigh them and he has lost a few pounds. However, our vet had been like, he needs to lose a few pounds. So.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. So we had been, like, very much more mindful of, like, the people food.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

So I had been like, okay, that's probably why he's losing weight. So I took him in on Monday. Like, I got an appointment, you know, three days later, they had to do a biopsy, and we haven't gotten the results yet. Now, when dogs get older and Beau is, like, pretty old at this point, he's at least 10, if not 11. They do develop lipomas, which are basically just like, fat deposits. And she said it very well could be that, but I want to biopsy it just to, like, be sure. So we are also waiting on the results of a biopsy. She was not concerned about the weight loss. She was like, okay, he. This is not lower than he's been in the past.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He just, like, put on a few pounds. So he's down to a threshold question.

[B]

Yeah, so it's not.

[A]

Got it. He's down to 83 now, but he had been, like, at 90, which is like, that's like, a little high for him. So. So yeah. So we are also kind of waiting and hoping that all that is benign. So I guess it's just the season, you know?

[B]

I know.

[C]

It is the season.

[B]

Well, as my mom would say. Thumbs up.

[A]

Thumbs up. Thumbs up, indeed. Oh, my gosh, your mom. I'll text your mom when I get the results.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Meanwhile, we talked about this a little bit on the casual chat, which is available to our Patreon community. But if you're not part of our Patreon community, what are you doing? Of course you should join, but if you aren't part of it yet, Dory has an update from sectionals.

[A]

I do. So my 3.0 team, which is the other team of mine that made sectionals, we won. We won the whole freaking thing. And there. There. There was a lot of. There were a lot of dramatic moments. I wrote about this in my tennis newsletter, Court Date, which hopefully, by the time this airs, will be out. I've been working on it. Courtdate, substack.com and, yeah, it was just, like, really inspiring. Like, we were this small team, and people had to play a lot of tennis, and everyone really, like, rose to the occasion. I think people surprised themselves. I surprised myself. And, yeah, it was just really fun. So now we get to go to nationals, and Elise is going to come watch.

[B]

Yes, I am, because I will be in Scottsdale. I'm super excited. Rob was like, oh, great. We already have plans that weekend. Excellent. You know, just to already have plans. You had set as your intention the last time we recorded that. You just wanted to play loose. You didn't want to be too anxious about it. You didn't want to worry about winning or losing. You wanted to focus on having a good time and thought that might actually be the unlock. Did you feel like you were able to just sort of let things go and play nice and free?

[A]

Yeah, I. My. The first match I played, I was not supposed to play, but one of our players got sick, and so I had to, like, move some stuff around. And it turned out that the woman I played was just, like. She just, like, sliced everything back, and I had a lot of trouble with her shots, and it was kind of a bloodbath. And so I was, like, a little demoralized. And then I was like, okay, I just have to, like, shake it off. And then I played another singles match against someone who, like, her playing style was much more aligned with, like, what I'm familiar with and what I am good at sort of countering, and I beat her. I won the match, so. And it was a two and a half hour match. It was so long.

[B]

I can't stay on a tennis court.

[A]

Longer than an hour. Teammates, like all my other teammates had, like, long ago finished. They were all sitting there. I was just like, okay, here we go. But, yes, I do feel like in that match, I was definitely loose because I felt like it could not go any worse than it went on Friday. It was. It was just such a. Like, it was so bad that. And I. I had seen the other singles players playing. No one else played like her. She won all her matches. Like, you know, I just was like, oh, I just need another one of these people who's not. Yeah, yeah. So I was just relieved to not have that again. Um, but, yeah, it went. It went great. And now we get to go to nationals. And there's 17 sections across the United States, so there's 16 other teams we will be repping SoCal.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And yeah. So, yeah, it's gonna be. It's gonna be fun. We rented a house. There's gonna be like a team house. So that's gonna be fun. And. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you're all gonna stay together as a team.

[A]

Most of us are gonna stay together as a team.

[B]

Oh, how fun. It'll be like a giant sorority house, essentially, because it'll be a lot of fun.

[C]

Right?

[A]

It has a tennis court.

[B]

Oh, how perfect.

[A]

There's. I think there's gonna be nine of us staying there. And then, like. Like a couple people are doing, like one woman is staying with. There's some people kind of doing their own things, but most of us will be in the house, which I think will be super fun. Yeah.

[C]

Good.

[B]

All right, well, looking forward to that. And it's fitting that we're talking about tennis because Jenna Friedman starts her conversation talking a little bit about tennis, too.

[A]

Yes. But you know what? Before I introduce Jenna, I just want to remind everyone that you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We've links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We're also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. That's where you get those casual chats. You also get our monthly pop culture episodes. You also get ad free episodes at the $10 level. So that's kind of cool. You can shop our favorite products@shopmy us forever35. And you can sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com newsletter and please call or text us. We love getting your voicemails and your texts. They're what power the mini apps. That's at 781-591-0390. You can also email us and you can also email us voice memos, Forever 35, podcast, gmail com and now Jenna is an Academy Award nominated writer and comedian. She created Soft Focus on Adult Swim and True Crime Story Indefensible on amc. Plus she has written, she wrote Borat, two subsequent movie films. She has written on Nobody Wants this on Netflix, the Conners on ABC and the Late show with David Letterman. She was a field producer on the Daily show with Jon Stewart. I mean she's just like, she's done it all. She has a great TED talk on comedy and AI. And as we speak she's in Edinburgh with her new stand, her third standup special mother effort and that's debuting in Edinburgh. So we will be right back with Jenna.

[B]

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[A]

Jenna, welcome to Forever35. We are excited to have you here. We like to start off by asking all of our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there anything that you do that you would consider sel care?

[C]

I just got back into tennis. I played in high school and a little bit in college and I was kind of burnt out when I like in college just having played so much and so I haven't played in 20 years and I'm sorry. I've started to play again and I got. I've gotten really into it and that has been my self care.

[B]

How does it feel?

[C]

It's cool. We were, we went to Michigan. My in laws live there and so we went there right after the fires in LA because I have a toddler and we just wanted to get away for a minute and. And I started playing tennis with all of these like 70 year olds at this tennis club and it was so fun. I felt. So I was the youngest person there by like 30 years and I. It was so fun.

[B]

Awesome. Well, we want to know what you're up to because you have a lot of projects going on right now. Tell us what you're up to and what your projects are all about.

[C]

I'm heading to Edinburgh. I don't know how to pronounce it. They always get mad when I say Edinburgh but I don't know how to pronounce without sounding so like. Like Braveheart. I don't know. I'm. I have a new hour show that I'm bringing to the fringe and so I'm prepping that. So right now I'm In New York, I have shows here, I have shows in Philly to work out the show. Because when you go to Edinburgh, you're like in a fishbowl. And I remember the first time I went with my first hour American Cunt, and I had 13 reviewers come to 12 shows. So hopefully I'll get reviewers this time. But they do tend to. I mean, there are a lot more Americans than in 2015 and there are fewer reviewers than there were in 2015, so who knows? But you're kind of in a fishbowl and I really want to make sure I'm off book and I have the show, the beats down and so I have to prep before I go and then I'm going to go on. I'm doing the show 18 days in a row at this venue called the Monkey barrel at like 4:15pm every single day from August 8th to the 24th.

[B]

Are you so good at it by the time you're done?

[C]

That's the thing. Some US comedians, Edinburgh like breaks them, they hate it. And those are typically people who do really well here. I've always done better in the uk. They just, when I've done political comedy, they're, they have the appetite for it. They're not burnt out. They want to know what's going on in America from a liberal point of view, or I don't know the term liberalism. So bastardized. From a Democrat, I don't even know. From a non fascist point of view, I don't even know what to call myself anymore. And so, yeah, I mean, this show's a lot more personal than my past shows. But I know by the end of the run I'll have a really tight show that ideally I can sell to a US platform, if any of them still exist.

[A]

Yeah, that was going to be my question. Like, what, what kind of is the goal of doing this at Enbro? Like, is it, is it to sell a show?

[C]

Everybody's goal is different. I've always, my career has always been. I worked at the Daily Show, I worked at Letterman, I've like written for other TV shows. I have some projects I'm directing. It's stand up has never been my bread and butter. So I've never been a touring standup comic. And so for me, the last two shows I took there, I was lucky enough to sell them and recoup my expenses because I was able to really work out the kinks. And in one place with. This is a festival with 3,000 shows and tourists from all over the world. And so with, if you do a good show, oftentimes it spreads via word of mouth and you just get audiences in every show. And then if you're doing the same time, same location, you really can tell which jokes are working and which ones aren't working. And for me, it has in the past really helped me hone my hour and so that's how I use it. But it's. Everybody's different. I've been three times. And also it has gotten so much more expensive than it ever was. So if I'm a new comic, I don't think especially you could just like go do a podcast and whatever to get your fans. But if I were a newer comic, I don't think I would go potentially depending on things. But for me, now it makes sense.

[B]

Edinburgh is where the protagonist in Baby Reindeer was.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Right. Richard Gad is a brilliant comedian. I saw his, our baby reindee reindeer in 2019. That was the last time I was there. And it was, it blew me away. It blew me away. He's such an incredible performer. But, yeah, you can have a great Edinburgh. You can be performing to no. 1 for 25 nights in a row. I mean, there, there's all, there are 3,000, I think last time, I don't even know what it is now. Shows in the city over the month, possibly more. So you're competing, you're not competing against all these people, but audiences can't see every single show, so you are in a sense competing with these other shows. And it's just, I mean, it's crazy.

[B]

And the idea is to get lots of reviewers because the reviewers will write about it and it'll help all those audiences pick where they're going to spend their 4 o' clock on a. Any afternoon on the festival and ideally go to you.

[C]

Yeah, there are shows, there are shows at all hours. And I remember in 2019 I had, and I wrote about this in my book, but I remember I had four reviewers come to my second show and they were British men and they just kind of didn't get the show. They were like, it's political, it's not really my vibe. And then I had this student reviewer, this woman, I'm blanking on her name, but she was from the student newspaper for University of Edinburgh and she fully got this show and she gave me the most glowing review. She gave me like a five star review and she got exactly what I was doing. The show was about like femicide and murder and it was heavy, but it was also funny and it was like no frills I just had this, like, crumpled up paper and a spotlight on me, and I just kind of said what I needed to say, and she loved it. And I. The rest of the run sold out. And it just was so cool to. Even if it didn't. Even if it hadn't sold out, when someone actually sees what you're trying to do, so clearly it's like, that's, like, why. That's why I do it. It's so cool.

[B]

What are you trying to do with the next one?

[C]

I don't know. This one's a lot more personal. The last show, I think I was like, you know, I. I wrote a show in 2015 leading up to the 2016 election. I wrote a show in 2019 leading up to the 2020 election. So I. Those were very political and pointed, and they were about, like, what the kind of the moment that we were in leading up to these elections, and kind of like a plea to not vote for Trump in both of them.

[B]

Good job.

[C]

Yeah, I did it. This show is not that at all. It's really a personal hour. It has some politics in it, but it's about the last two years of my life becoming a mom and also dealing with some pretty intense grief. And I think it's funny. And having. Being on the other side of very, like, a very deep loss. I do feel like I have a perspective that can be helpful. I don't really think of the audience, no offense to the audience. When I'm writing a show, I just kind of do my thing. But if people can come away feeling better than when they went into a show, that's really a goal of mine, especially for this project.

[A]

You know, you mentioned motherhood, and I was just thinking about how it was, James Corden, right, that, like, rejected your motherhood focus set after your son was born.

[C]

It's so interesting that you mentioned that. So that was a little bit. I had talked about it on the Daily Beast podcast and then cracked. I think it's a comedy podcast, picked it up. But they took it out of context. The booker. That did happen, but not as drastically as it was portrayed. I was very. A very new mom. I think I was two or three months postpartum, maybe less. And I was working out this new hour, and the bit, and I really wish I could have done it, was to have the baby on my body as I'm doing this set, which is like, I'm not sure if I want kids because I have one. You know, it's just like. It was just like a Five minute set from a new mom. And we were working it out, and we do these late night sets. You know, you have to send tapes, and it's like you could be working on a set for months. And so I was going out and doing shows and I would put my purse around my neck and be like, guys, just like, pretend this is a baby. I'm just gonna run this because I didn't want to wake him. I'm not a psycho. But it wasn't like I had a date set and they canceled it. But I was a new mom, like, in an industry with no maternity leave and no hr, trying to put this set together for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was like, send me a recording. We're really interested. And I was like, it's not. I was like, I'll. I can send it to you, but you know, I don't have it 100%, but I promise you I will. Whatever. And the tape that I gave him was a little lackluster because it was at an open mic that worked in my schedule with a bag around my neck like a crazy person. And he was like. He was like. The thing, though that was annoying was. And he put this in writing. The note to me was like, whatever. That was truly what he said. I don't want to misquote him, but it was something to the effect of like, this is going to bum our audience out. And I was like, this is funny. Fuck off. Like, don't. And then I did. You know, I did. I did cavalierly talk. I should find it for you. Because I don't want to take him out of context. He probably sounded worse than I'm even making.

[A]

It was, you know, the show's ending, and this just feels like a big F you to the audience.

[B]

Yeah, that's what the quote was.

[C]

And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm a mom with my baby on me making jokes. It would have been great. It would have been an epic performance. And it was. I just. I really. That was a moment when I really missed Conan because Conan took a chance. I did two late night sets, and both of them got me so much work. And I know that if I pitched him a five minute set with my baby on my body with jokes pulled from my special about how being a new mom sucks, like, it would have been hilarious. But I also. I didn't realize that cordon also came under, which is also the more the more reason he should have done it. But he came under hot water because he was flying with a woman. And the baby was being. The baby was crying on a plane, and he put his headphones on him to just tune them out. And someone at first praised him, because we love to praise men, and was like, that's how you handle a crying baby. You just put your headphones on and tune it out. And then they realize it was his kid. Like, he wasn't being a hero. He was just being, like, a shitty dog. So that had happened way before I pitched this. So I'm like, oh, he's not, like, necessarily new mom. He's not like, a friend of the moms. Yeah, I guess. So. I understand what the booker meant, but, you know, I was in a weird phase. I had just had, like, the biggest loss of my life and a baby, and I was insane. So normally I wouldn't, like. It's not kissing and telling. I wouldn't, like, disclose that information on a podcast, but I was just like, whatever. And I guess I'm still like, whatever because I'm still talking about it. But you did ask.

[A]

I did, yes.

[B]

Yes. And so just to clarify, this is after your mom died?

[C]

Yes. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. That's so sad. But, yeah. And, like, I don't want to ruin my show, but, yeah, my mom died when I was, like, eight months pregnant. Nine months pregnant.

[B]

Has working out this hour and now performing it a few times helped you in your grieving grief.

[C]

I mean, okay, it's tricky because now it changes. I mean, grief isn't linear, right? So you think you just do it a ton, a ton of times, and then it. You. You process it. Like, I was too pregnant to go to her funeral. So, like, I. There's, like, a lot that I didn't. You know, like, I didn't. I don't want to cry at work, but I didn't get that, like, closure. I don't know if you ever get that closure, but I just feel like it was kind of still open. And so I started doing stand up shortly after she died and after the baby was born because my husband was like, just do it. So this show is a culmination, and that's from, like, me just getting on stage and being like. Like, so not funny to. Then just, like, making it actually funny. Like, the show is actually funny now. And so, you know, has it helped? I don't know. Maybe it has helped me process it. Does it make me feel closer to her? Yes. There's sometimes that I do the show where I'm like. Like, I did it in Detroit the other night, and it worked, but I was like, emotionally just not as connected. But then when I am fully connected, it's like you tap, you tap open a well and you can't stop crying. And then it becomes like this weird performance art. But then I also feel like guilty for crying so much. It makes the show. The audience loves it, but I feel like a hack or something. And yeah, I don't know why. I think there's like this like dead dad trope in Edinburgh where like when everyone, when anyone has like a dad die, they do this like, show about it. So. And then a friend of mine was like, like, there's a part in the show that is so insane. And she was just like, you're not a hack. And also, I don't know why I have that hang up, but it's like, look at my IMDb page. Like, if I could cry on command, I would have a lot more work in the acting phase. But it is weird. Like, it does feel weird having done this for 15 years and having worked so hard to write these political jokes. No one likes how much people like you when you just cry.

[B]

This reminds me of that time when Hillary was running against Obama, do you remember, in 2008, and she was in a diner in New Hampshire and she actually was just exhausted and she started crying as she was answering a question just about. Because somebody was just like, hey, Hillary, how are you? And for whatever reason, it just like tapped into her emotions, her soul, and she starts crying. And then this ended up being like a two week multiple news cycle debate about like, whether women should cry and whether she's faking it and is this a trope and like, you can't win.

[C]

Yeah, that's, that's actually Elise, that's a perfect way. Like, I shouldn't be in my head because I'll never win. Like, there's no way to play it or whatever. But I am in my head because I live in my head because I'm a comedian. And yeah, I actually, I was running through the show so fast. And then I talked to a guy comedian whose comedy is like whimsical one liners. He's not emotionally raw person on stage, but off stage. He's a comedian I deeply admire. And his father died when he was like 22. And we had this conversation a couple months ago and I just asked him, I was like, when did you just stop crying all the time? And he said it took him about five to seven years. Wow. And he said, he's like, you know, just if you like. Because when I think about her. You can tell right now I just, like, all the time. And he's like, just lean into that. So then the show I had after that, I just was like, it's crazy. But then, like, the comic in me, like, writes jokes. Like, now I have a bit where if I feel like it coming on, I have a prop that I used to get me out of it and just. It's a joke and it's a funny joke. I don't want to spoil it. But it's like I find the more real the show becomes and the heavier it becomes. Like, I just. My brain just, like, finds something to, like, take me out of it. And then that's where the comedy comes back. I'm almost three years out of it, but it's, like, nice to think about her, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I remember reading your book and how you had a lot you had. I feel like this has been a few months now, but I feel like you wrote a little bit about your family and how they, like, didn't get what you were doing. When you decided you wanted to go into comedy, did your mom end up being pretty supportive of your career path?

[C]

I mean, I. I dedicated the book to her as the funniest person I know, and I didn't. I didn't know that she was sick. And then the galleys copy of the book came out and I got to read her the whole book. And this is a joke in my show, but this actually happened. So I taped this. I found out she was sick. I taped the stand up special. I went to go see her. I was like, catatonic. I'm 27 weeks pregnant. I had a surgical mask. I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'll just read her this book that she, like, remembered every instance because I talked to her all the time. I talked to her every day. And I read her the whole book over two days. And I was trying so hard not to cry. And I had a surgical mask on because I still thought she'd be able to get treatment. I wanted to make sure I didn't give her Covid for my, like, crazy show. And so I finished in two days. I read her 252 pages of this book about my 15 years of being a performer. And she says, I finished the book. And she says, are you planning to do a book on tape? And I was like, yeah, I think, yeah, that's the plan. And then she said, well, then you should hire someone to help you on the performance.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Oh, My God. I know, I know. So I feel, you know, and like, as she was dying, she literally had like, my book on her bed. So I feel so lucky because it's taken me forever to write a book and I'm trying to write a second one and I can't. I'm moving at a snail's pace. But just the fact that, like, she got to have that, like a copy of something that gave her comfort and.

[B]

Yeah, and she didn't. She, she didn't ever stop being funny either.

[C]

She didn't ever stop being literally, as she was dying, her home, her palliative care person, Carla, Carla's daughter died in a car crash. Like, I don't even know that month or something. And as my mom is literally dying, she's like, check on Carla. Make sure she's okay. Like, she just, she was like the most giving, but she was also cunty. Like, she wasn't like, you know, she, she. Yeah, she was fun until the end. She's a real person. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, this is awesome that you're going to be able to pay tribute to her.

[A]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

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[B]

I want to rewind just a little bit because you were talking about Conan and too bad Conan's not doing his show anymore. And then as of next year, there's not going to be Colbert anymore. Like what's the prognosis for late night? Which is where you cut your teeth.

[C]

I mean, I was a little worried about Late Night, but having been to ted, I'm like, late Night is the least of our problems. We're all going to die. Thanks to Palmer Lucky's autonomous nukes. Yeah, like, I, I, I, I love Colbert, and I think the franchise ending is heartbreaking. Like, after having serious loss, after looking at everything else that's going on, it's not, like, earth shattering. And I, I just said this to Sambi, and I feel bad because I love Colbert so much and I know he's going to do great and I want to have sympathy, but there's just, like, everything seems like it's ending.

[A]

Well, you brought up AI and ted, and can we talk a little bit about your TED Talk, which is about comedy and AI and there's a lot of, like, nervous. There seemed to be a lot of, like, nervous laughter from the audience. Like, they all seemed. I don't know, maybe I'm reading into it too much.

[C]

No, I, I was supposed to speak on the panel, the robot panel, with all the tech guys, and they moved me to, like, some family panel, and that's how I ended up speaking after. Yeah, a pediatrician. They knew, they knew. They had my transcript. They knew what I was joking about. I don't think it, I think it was totally an oversight. I don't think it was malicious. But, yeah, when the person that goes on before you is showing pictures of babies and infants and infants and babies and babies and infants, and then you're like, oh, cool. What a great opening act for my jokes about abortion.

[B]

Tell folks about it. For the folks who haven't seen it yet, see it.

[C]

It's like seven minutes.

[B]

Yes, you should see it. It's seven minutes.

[C]

No, I just. Okay. So I was, I got the privilege of being invited to speak at ted. I didn't really know that TED was still. I just like, TED talked. It's kind of not really. Not a lot of comics do it. So it wasn't on my radar. And so they asked me to. They wanted to go over my speech. And the first, I had, like, a prep call, and it felt a lot more formal. I. For, you know, not being paid, frankly. Like, this is unpaid gig. Why are there seven people on the Zoom? So it felt quite formal. And they just. The first the ask was just to do stand up. And I was like, okay, I'll do stand up. And then I realized that it was being recorded and going to live online in perpetuity with the word TED behind me. So I was like, I can't just do stand up. Now I actually have to do a TED Talk. And so to their credit, I put a TED Talk together with a couple jokes that I had around tech that I couldn't actually find a place for. I think I put them in my last special and then cut them because they just didn't make sense to be there. And then the rest of the talk, I just kind of filled in the blanks and it ended up being really about AI and their headline, which I think is pretty good. It's like the jokes AI won't tell. And the larger idea is just that the more specific and maybe niche, unlikable, not profitable, your content is, the less likely a machine will write it. Yeah. And that to me, are my abortion jokes. Like, I've never. I'm never going to be an arena comic. I'm never going to get to a level where my, like, I want to write a multicam. I'm going to try. I have an idea for one, but it's just not my brand of what I've done for the past 15 years. So I think that, you know, AI and ChatGPT are totally going to replace my industry. Just not the niche stuff. There's not going to be like, an A.I. nathan Fielder.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And if there is, I don't know if people will care because it's because you don't care about machines doing stuff like that. Right. But it's.

[B]

But it's so much of what makes us human.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you want to tell Jenna about what you found at the end of her TED Talk?

[A]

Oh, yeah. I texted this to Elise, like, after you finish watching your TED Talk, you get like a pop up and it says key takeaways, and it's this, like, AI summary of.

[C]

I saw that TED Talk. I saw that. I was like, what the fuck? I saw that. And also, it wasn't even. There was an AI synopsis and it wasn't even accurate. I almost posted about it, but then I was like, I can't.

[B]

I don't know if it, like, bolsters the point. It kind of inadvertently bolsters the point that you're making in the talk, though, that AI can't capture what you're doing.

[C]

Yeah, okay, I'll post about it. Yeah, I saw that too. An AI takeaway from my talk.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, oh, my God.

[C]

I know, I know.

[B]

And it's wrong. And it's wrong. All right. I know you have your kid to take care of and you're in New York preparing for your. Your show. So we don't want to take too much of your time. You mentioned that it's pretty apocalyptic times. You are personally back into tennis as a kind of coping.

[C]

Are you? The AI synopsis after the podcast.

[B]

Do I sound like one? And maybe there is a future for me after all. But. So you, you are personally going back into tennis. Is there anything that you feel like has been helpful in this year of crisis and chaos and things could potentially get worse in terms of just like the way you think about things or any practices that you have like worked into your life. To feel like, hey, this is giving me some meaning and purpose and I'm not gonna be so cynical.

[C]

I mean, I think you can be cynical. And I think it all. I think the way I'm interpreting the question is like, how are you coping with what's going on? Yeah, I mean, my son has really been an antidote to my grief. I'm not saying you should have kids, but just that you're probably gonna be forced to now that, you know, Trump is president. I'm not saying any of that. No, I'm in it earnestly. I think art. Art helped me get through some of my grief art. And then talking acupuncture helped with my heartbreak. Reading all the grief books. Crying in H Mart. I can't even. That one was like waterworks. But the books make you feel less alone. They help you process your grief. They help you just cry when you need to cry. And I think that's really. As someone who is an artist, I hate to be like, I'm gonna. But it's like, I think sometimes you don't think about it as much from the perspective of a consumer of this stuff. But then as somebody who was a grief stricken. Ricky Gervais's show about loss, Sarah Silverman. I mean, I just watched Sarah Silverman Special. It was so good postmortem. But just people dealing with these human things that we're all gonna have to deal with really, really helped me. Talking to people who had experienced it also helped me. Those were the things, the main things, acupuncture. I had heartbreak and it took it away. So I think art in times of strife and chaos, like human made art, is really helpful and physical activity. Anything. For me, it has been tennis, because it's just my mom was such a part of my childhood tennis experience. She would drive me to tournaments. And so when I'm on the court, I feel her presence. Yeah. And so those are things that have been personally helped me in this time, dealing with my own shit and then dealing with the global shit and the local shit and the national shit. I mean, having perspective that, you know, we've been really lucky to have grown up in the time and places that we grew up and appreciating that and how that has shaped who we are today, and knowing that, you know, history is cyclical and stuff happens and just take care of the people you can take care of and do your best. I don't know. I mean, like, I used to be way more doom and gloom. Like, after from 2016, I was like, oh, my God. And now I'm just like, okay, we could be entering into fascism. Like, who do I need to take care of? But just taking care of people that are more vulnerable than you at the time. At times like this. In times like this, I think that that's the thing that's, like a tangible thing. It's, like, not on social media. It's helping, like, just helping someone who needs help in a time where they might need help. I don't know. I love it. Great, thanks.

[B]

All right. How can folks find you, Jenna?

[C]

I'm online. If you just type in AI. Type in a chatgpt. No, I mean, I post shows on Instagram, and I have a website that my friend Ruth Gamble helps me out with. She's incredible. And so that's pretty much where I post information. Fantastic.

[B]

Jenna Friedman, thank you so much.

[C]

Thanks for having me, guys.

[A]

Well, Jenna was great. You're right.

[B]

Thank you, Jenna.

[A]

She's so deadpan. Love her.

[B]

I like it when I can't tell whether somebody's joking. I'm just like, wait. Was that okay?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway. Okay, intention zone. It's time to revisit our intentions.

[A]

How did watching more tennis go for you?

[B]

Well, I started this intention, like, the very next day after setting this intention and got to see my boyfriend, Ben Shelton, win his first Masters 1000 tournament.

[C]

I was so excited.

[B]

Yes. He doesn't know he's my boyfriend, but it's also, like, as I said, I feel bad about it since he's, like, 21, but he's so cute, and he won his first big tournament. And I'm really excited for the US Open because I feel like he's going to be entering the US Open on a high. And this week I'm watching a lot of the Cincinnati Open because Alcaraz is back and, yeah, it's been a good time.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

I really liked this intention, but for my. For my next one, I haven't exercised much, so I've got to put that back on the board. Putting exercising back on the board. I had the biopsy and then had to take down time because of that. And then has have been a little under the weather, but gonna be intentional about increasing my exercise units. So I'm just gonna have like a unit per day of like going for a walk or something. So what about you? We talked a little bit about your intention.

[A]

We did. So last week I said I was gonna just enjoy the moment at sectionals and I did. I think I really did. Yeah. This week Henry is starting school, so my intention is to just kind of like support him. I think he's a little, a little nervous, you know, new teacher, first grade. A bunch of his besties are in his class though, so I'm happy about that and I think he's relieved about that too. So. Yeah. So I just, you know, kind of want to start the new year off on, on the right foot for him.

[C]

Good. Good.

[A]

Yeah. All right, thanks everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners acas. And we'll talk to you all very soon.

[B]

Thanks for listening.

[A]

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