Episode 366: Have No Shame with E. Jean Carroll

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 366: "Have No Shame with E. Jean Carroll"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: E. Jean Carroll
Release Date: August 25, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome the legendary journalist and advice columnist E. Jean Carroll. The conversation effortlessly weaves together the practicalities of self-care, the absurdity and gravity of Carroll’s high-profile legal battles against Donald Trump, and what it means—especially for women and as we age—to live without shame.

The episode is as much about resilience and humor as it is about politics and personal care. Carroll shares stories from her recent legal fights, her self-care routines, insights on aging and beauty, and her approach to giving advice. The hosts and guest discuss the current state of American political life, the power of refusing shame, and the joys and realities of getting older.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. E. Jean Carroll's Self-Care Rituals & Aging Joyfully

• Bouncing Through Life (09:48 – 11:19)
  • Carroll demonstrates her favorite daily self-care practice: sitting and moving on a giant exercise ball all day. She credits constant movement and her dogs’ love for keeping her energized.
  • Posture & Core Strength: Carroll has worn a makeshift weighted strap pack for 20+ years (“Get that thing on now!” – 11:57) to support posture and prevent slouching as she ages. Her advice: don’t wait—start now!
  • Memorable Quote:
    “Do it now, girl. Yeah, get that thing on now… I’ve been talking about this thing for 25 years.” — E. Jean Carroll (11:57)

2. Behind the Scenes of Holding Trump Accountable

• Surprise Book Launch & High Absurdity (14:19 – 16:49)

  • Carroll explains the secrecy behind her book, Not My Type, written after her court victories against Trump. The book balances the tragic with comedic relief. She describes sitting in court as “high comedy” amidst the seriousness.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “I keep saying the word funny and I keep saying comedy and it sounds weird, but that’s what it was.” – E. Jean Carroll (16:02)

• The Importance of Appearance in Court (17:49 – 20:59)

  • Carroll recounts how a “mock jury” taught her that appearance shapes perception—even of her sexual assault testimony. She underwent a dramatic makeover to look more like her 1996 self, wearing a wig and vintage clothes to bridge the jury’s imagination gap.
  • Wig Names: Trixie, Trudy, Tallulah, Thomasita. (“This is $8.88!” – 20:52)

• Psychiatric Evaluations & Legal Drama (21:21 – 23:46)

  • Trump’s legal team struggled to find an expert to counter Carroll’s; ended up hiring a psychiatrist specializing in alcoholism, who gave questionable conclusions.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “His conclusion was that he didn’t know what happened…but if it did happen, I was lying. That was his conclusion.” — E. Jean Carroll (23:38)

• Trump’s Courtroom Behavior & Jury’s Verdict (24:08 – 27:19)

  • Carroll describes Trump’s disruptive, childish courtroom behavior, climaxing with him storming out during closing arguments.
  • Jury awarded Carroll $83 million in damages. She intends to donate it “to everything he hates”—women’s rights causes, if and when it arrives.
  • Memorable Moment:
    “He lost the case right there by walking out. Didn’t have enough control to even sit…And that’s the man who’s running our lives right now. No control whatsoever.” — E. Jean Carroll (26:27)

3. The Transformation from Advice Columnist to Symbol of Resistance

• Shifting Identities (30:57 – 31:40)

  • Carroll reflects on moving from her longstanding role as Elle columnist to her current identity as a public figure fighting Trump in court.
  • She highlights the need for everyone to “get off our lazy asses…instead of talk about changing the world, we should change ourselves first.” (31:40)

• The Nature of Trump’s Power (32:23 – 36:25)

  • Carroll and the hosts discuss the alarming speed of Trump’s political resurgence, his mastery of branding, and his ability to tap into American victimhood and grievance.
  • No Sense of Shame: Carroll observes that Trump’s utter lack of shame has been central to his success, inspiring the episode’s title.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “If I can do it, anybody can do it. Just think, there’s nobody lower or weaker than an old lady. And this old lady took him on and beat the shit out of him.” – E. Jean Carroll (33:22)
  • On Shame:
    "When you have no sense of shame, it turns out it can take you really far.” – Elise Hu (37:15)

4. On Writing the Book

• The Urge to Capture Absurdity (38:41 – 39:43)
  • Carroll knew immediately upon entering the courtroom that she wanted to write a book. She obsessively documented every detail, including nightly video diaries.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “I was overloaded with every small detail every day…I had characters that nobody in the world could have dreamed of…” – E. Jean Carroll (39:17)

5. On Giving Advice

• How to Be a Great Advice-Giver (40:22 – 41:09)
  • Carroll’s secret: the real answer is usually found within the question; people mostly need encouragement to act on what they already know they want.
  • Memorable Quote:
    "No matter what you tell them, they're going to do it anyway. So at least give them a shove in the proper way…” – E. Jean Carroll (41:09)

6. Closing Wisdom and Joy

• Grabbing Joy Above All (41:23 – 42:06)
  • Carroll gently discourages self-promotion, instead advising listeners to “grab the joy when it comes along,” reinforcing the show’s ethos of finding delight in the everyday.

---

Standout Quotes & Timestamps

• “Get that thing on now. I’ve been talking about this thing for 25 years.” — E. Jean Carroll, on wearing posture straps (11:57)
• “The whole thing was tragic, but surrounding it was the high humor.” — E. Jean Carroll, on her Trump trial (16:49)
• “I gotta look fuckable.” — E. Jean Carroll, on preparing for the mock jury and courtroom prejudice (19:39)
• “His conclusion was…if it did happen, I was lying. That was his conclusion.” — E. Jean Carroll, on Trump’s court psychiatrist (23:38)
• “That’s the man who’s running our lives right now. No control whatsoever.” — E. Jean Carroll, on Trump storming out of court (26:27)
• “There’s nobody lower or weaker than an old lady. And this old lady took him on and beat the shit out of him.” — E. Jean Carroll (33:22)
• “We should have no shame and just go out and do what we want to do.” — E. Jean Carroll (37:23)
• “No matter what you tell them, they’re going to do it anyway. So at least give them a shove in the proper way…” — E. Jean Carroll (41:09)
• “You don’t need to look for E. Jean Carroll anywhere. I want you to grab the joy.” — E. Jean Carroll (41:23)

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 09:32–11:29: E. Jean describes her unique self-care and posture tips
• 14:19–16:49: Writing Not My Type; the absurdity and humor of court
• 17:49–20:59: Court appearance, the bob haircut, and mock juries
• 21:21–23:46: The farcical psychiatric evaluation story
• 24:08–27:19: Trump’s tantrum in court and the impact on the jury
• 32:23–37:23: Analysis of Trump’s success, shame, and political climate
• 38:41–39:43: Writing the book as catharsis and journalism
• 40:22–41:09: E. Jean's approach to giving advice
• 41:23–42:06: Carroll’s closing message on seeking joy

---

Summary & Tone

The episode balances poignant reflection with irrepressible humor, perfectly capturing E. Jean Carroll’s “tragicomic” experience. The tone is warm, self-deprecating, and empowering. Carroll’s resilience and authenticity shine—not only in her recounting of courtroom absurdities but in her insistence that "anybody can do it" and her steady refusal to be cowed by shame, age, or the powerful.

Whether you came for practical advice, political insight, or simply a dose of encouragement for living fully at any age, this episode delivers.

---

For more resources and highlights from this episode, visit forever35podcast.com.
Follow Forever35 on Instagram @forever35podcast.
E. Jean Carroll’s Substack: ejeancarroll.substack.com

Transcript

[A]

Why choose a sleep number Smart bed.

[B]

Can I make my site softer?

[C]

Can I make my site firmer?

[D]

Can we sleep cooler?

[A]

Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting it's the sleep number biggest sale of the year. All beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free premium delivery with any smart bed and adjustable base ends labor day. All sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Earth Animal. Have you ever been overwhelmed at the pet store looking at dog treats and you're faced with a wall of ears, hooves, mystery meat, and then rawhide? It looks harmless, but if you know people with dogs, then you probably know someone whose dog had a bad experience with rawhide. But now there's earth animals. No hide chews, no rawhide, no nasties. Just simple sustainable ingredients and an extra extra. Plus no awful smell. Plus no hide chews actually last. Get 25% off no hide with code pod25earthanimal.com Give them a try, but remember to always supervise chewing. Subject to availability terms and conditions apply. See earthanimal.com for details. Hello and welcome to Forever, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[B]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[C]

Welcome back to the show.

[B]

Boy, do we have a good one for you in store today.

[C]

You know, sometimes we get pitched guests and I'm like, wow, this person wants to come on our little old show. You know what I mean?

[B]

Our humble.

[C]

Our whole show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then they're like, I've been listening to your show for years. And I'm like, you have?

[B]

Like, I gasped when, when I heard her say, like, I've been listening to this show for years because, yeah, she's such a legend.

[C]

She's such a legend.

[B]

We have, ladies and gents, on our show today, the one and only Eugene Carroll.

[C]

I mean, I mean, the thing about Eugene is like, she was iconic even before all of the Trump bullshit happened.

[B]

She's in a different stratosphere now.

[C]

She's in a different stratosphere and she's.

[B]

One of the few people who's taken on Donald Trump and won in court.

[C]

And her book is like, it's so. It's a wild ride. I will say, I think Elise is laughing because it Seems weird to say, but the book is very funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, you don't like. You're like, should I be laughing at this?

[B]

No, she meant she wants you to laugh at it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So, yeah, I recommend her book. She's just a fascinating human. And I really, really enjoyed our conversation. So we will get to her in a little bit. But first, let's catch up.

[B]

We are back in the school year here in Southern California, and I'm delighted by it. I'm delighted to have my days back and just, like, be back in a routine. The sports kids are already playing their sports again. Ava's trying out for volleyball next week, and then Luna has a soccer tournament, Labor Day weekend. So we're, like, right back in it. I think you're right back in it, too. It sounds like.

[C]

Yeah, some of Henry's, like, fall stuff hasn't started yet. Like, he's going to do soccer, but that doesn't start till after Labor Day weekend. He might do baseball. That also doesn't start till after Labor Day weekend, you know, so I feel like he's gone back to school, but, like, some of his fall stuff has not started yet. So we have a little bit of a reprieve. But it sounds like you are just, like, right back in it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And then. But I'm excited. Like, I feel. I feel like summer is such a fun time, and I love being able to vacation and spend more time with the family. But, like, September or late August into September, you get back into a sense of normalcy and routine, and I just like that feeling of I have a full work day. I know where the kids are all day. I'm not switching camps every week. And then there's different protocols for different camps when they're in camps in the summer.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And then we start kind of barreling towards the Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas stuff in a couple months. So we have this kind of idyllic, more quiet, quotidian period in September that I really want to. I want to just savor and enjoy. We've been doing lots of walks with Oscar, who is on the mend. Thank you all for your sweet notes and kind wishes about this golden retriever who seems to be in and out of the ER all the time. Seems to be. Is Buddy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Out of the ER all the time. But he is on the mend and seeming like he's back to normal, his normal golden retriever self. So that's all been good. And then, yeah, I have a few, you know, other projects that are in the works. I'm deep in fundraising mode for the documentary because I have chosen, like, the creative path that is probably the least lucrative creative path I could take, which is making a documentary film, and it requires so much development work. So shout out to all the development girlies out there who are having to fundraise, because I am on fundraising calls, like, three or four times a day trying to just find pockets of cash for a creative pursuit that we feel very passionate about and we're really excited about. And I'm going to prepare something to. To for socials so that all y' all can pitch in or offer any connections to foundations if you have them. But, yeah, it's just been a whole new world for me to essentially spend a lot of time writing emails and setting up calls and having conversations, but then not really knowing where there's going to go because it takes a long time to steward relationships like that.

[C]

Yeah, that's exhausting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a lot. But it does make me feel like I have a purpose. Each morning I'm sor. Sort of like, okay, today I'm gonna call three people, and I have a clear goal. Like, the whole reason I ever trained for marathons was because I liked that there was kind of a schedule. In order to training for a marathon, you can't just go run 26.2 miles. I mean, most people cannot.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And so in order to get there, you actually have to commit to a kind of training where you run.

[C]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

And you run longer and longer distances.

[C]

So.

[B]

So I've done that throughout my adult life. I guess that's one of my hobbies, I guess. I mean, I don't talk about it that much, but I've done that. And. And I liked just having that kind of order, because otherwise, I'm kind of a chaos muppet. And with the documentary financing, it's the same way. I'm sort of like, okay, today I'm gonna tick off three potential donors, and we're gonna raise $1,000 this week or whatever it is and just work on it. And that's been kind of nice for me.

[C]

I need to do this with, like, other things in my life. So this is a good reminder.

[B]

Yeah, just, like, pick a thing that you care about and, like, make that your thing. And it's like, small, measurable goals.

[C]

Right? Exactly. Exactly. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?

[B]

I'm so excited, too, and you should do the honors. You have been a reader and follower of E. Jeans for so long, but we. We really Love her so.

[C]

Eugene Carroll is a journalist and author of five books, including a biography of Hunter S. Thompson and the New York Times bestselling book Not My Type. One Woman versus a President. She has written for Rolling Stone, the New York Times, the Atlantic, Outside Vanity Fair, New York and Esquire. And Elle. I don't know why that's not on this list. She was a longtime Elle columnist. She was named one of Time's most influential people in the world in 2024. And she throws the ball for her dogs at her cabin in the mountains in upstate New York. And before we get to Eugene, just a reminder that you can Visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. You can shop our favorite products at Shopmy Us Forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at forever35podcast.com Newsletter and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390. You can also email us voice memos. Please do not text us voice memos. For some reason Google Voice doesn't like that.

[B]

It's eating them. It's just eating them.

[C]

You can email those to [e-mail] or just send us a regular old email. Forever35podcastmail.com and now here is Eugene. Welcome to Forever35.

[D]

I'm glad to be here. I couldn't wait.

[C]

We're so glad to have you. We like to start off by asking our guests if they have a self care practice that they would like to share.

[D]

Oh, I know I'm well prepared. Many of my friends are big fans of your podcast and so right now I'm doing something that I do every day. Do you see I'm doing this.

[B]

Hey, you're kind of like swaying back and forth. Are you in a swivel chair? What's happening? Oh, you're on a gigantic bouncy ab ball. One of those exercise balls.

[D]

All day long. That's it. All day long. It's super fun. Yeah, you never get bored. Your energy is constantly flowing up and you know, it's the dogs. Love is a true secret to keeping energized and to just very gently do be moving throughout the day.

[B]

Do you feel like it's good for your posture too and your core stability and all those things that it's supposed to do, or do you just like bouncing and kind of rolling around?

[D]

Well, Ali, as you Mentioned posture. That's the second tip I have. I'm wearing this to hold my shoulders back. It's just too. It just because I'm old. I'm 81.

[B]

Suspenders. Yeah. What's happening here?

[D]

What are you wearing to turn around? It's just. I'm just hung a two pound weight behind my back.

[B]

Oh, it's a weighted vest.

[D]

Yeah. Can you see it?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, these are very in right now. Yeah, these are very in right now.

[C]

Is that a weighted vest or is it.

[D]

It's just straps. They're a lot straps, right?

[C]

It's like a little pack in back.

[D]

Yeah, it's just like. And it looks like a little backpack, but it' this chic little thing and these I've been wearing for 20 years. Thank God. Really? Because.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

No, wait until you hit my age. You'll be amazed how everything wants to come down into the center of the body. You know, it all goes like this and so the back sort of humps over. But if you've got this thing on. Yeah, it keeps you, you know. And also it feels great. Yeah.

[B]

So it pulls your shoulders back, would you say? Because I feel like. I feel like I could use that now. Yeah. I don't know. Do we have to wait until we're older or should we just be wearing.

[D]

Do it now, girl. Yeah, get that thing on now. I feel like Amazon. Get this thing. It's like 19 bucks. I've been talking about this thing for like 25 years.

[B]

Amazing. Amazing.

[D]

Yeah, we'll see. I have no idea what I would look like if I hadn't been wore it, but I just picture the wicked witch. Whatever Wicked witch. She's always got a hump right there. I am.

[B]

No, you're right. You're right. The cartoon villains always get. Get scoliosis.

[C]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[B]

As summer winds down, I'm all about refreshing my wardrobe with staple pieces for the season ahead. And Quince nails it with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look pol perfect for layering and mixing. The styles are so versatile, I'm often reaching for them again and again. I got these really great linen pants from Quince that I'm wearing all the time. I'm wearing those kind of as we transition from summer into fall, which is where we're at right now. So I totally recommend those. And if you're looking for a place to go get chic cashmere and cotton sweaters Starting at just $40, washable silk tops and just timeless styles you'll keep coming back to. Check out Quince. Everything with Quince is half the cost. Similar brands by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quint.comfore35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C.comfore35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn.comfore35.

[E]

Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate. Tonight, Outback steakhouse has a three course meal starting at just $14.99. Start with soup or salad, then take your pick of down under entrees like our juicy towering burger or flame grilled shrimp. And for dessert, New York style cheesecake. Plus eight dollar cocktails all day every day. Three courses starting at 14.99. Tell the group chat. You'll see them at Outback. Price and participation may vary.

[B]

Well. E. Jean Carroll, we're so delighted to have you today. And your new book kind of came out as a surprise. There wasn't a big run up to it. It's called Not My Type, actually borrowed from a line that President Trump used after you brought charges against him for sexual assault in a department store many years ago and later for defamation when he called your claim a hoax. So set this all up for us.

[D]

Well said. Like somebody from npr. I swear to God, that was a beautiful introduction. Thank you very much, Elise. Yeah. So yes, the book was secret. I couldn't even get a copy. It was written in secret. It was written by a woman living in a hubble, as you can see, who was filled with high glee the entire time. I was writing it because I had official court transcripts, I had deposition transcripts, I had piles of notes. And I had the funniest situation that anybody's ever been in, sitting in a courtroom with Donald Trump right behind me. So high comedy. And we sprang it on the world with no run up, which was odd. And boom, people, people liked it because normally you hear the words sexual assault and you turn and you run because you feel very badly for the person and there's nothing you can do about it. Nothing. So you don't want to even deal with it. But this. So we made it a surprise and it turned out to be, you know, an amazing. Well, I keep saying the word funny and I keep saying comedy and it sounds weird, but that's what it was.

[C]

There are. So there are many moments in the book where I just found myself laughing. And it is this, you know, it's very serious. But you do sort of also highlight the absurdity of it all.

[D]

That's the word I was looking for. I couldn't find the word because I was being pulled by my shoulder straps. But that's the word absurdity, the high absurdity. And the way I dealt with it was to write about it so that exactly the whole thing was tragic, but surrounding it was the high humor.

[C]

Tragicomic.

[D]

Yeah, there you go.

[C]

I was complimenting your hair before we started recording because you have a very sleek bob. And in the book, this hairstyle is something that comes up and it kind of spoke to a lot of these issues of, like, how you should be representing yourself in court, you know, physically. And it felt all tied up with, you know, questions of beauty and femininity, but also aging and the male gaze. And it all sort of seemed to come to a head, no pun intended, in this bob. So I would love to have you kind of, you know, retell that story for our listeners and also talk about why even today, you know, long after the trial, you're still. You're still wearing the bob I'm still wearing.

[D]

Well, this was a huge court case, as we were had sued the President of the United States. In big court cases like this, lawyers like to do something called mock juries, or we would call them mock trial. And that way lawyers can present their cases to 27 what would be generally the typical jury member present their arguments, see what arguments are working and see what arguments are. So we put on an entire case in a big ballroom in New York. 27 typical New Yorkers who would be on a jury. They spent all day. It was a real trial. We had Trump's attorney played by one of our attorneys. And we presented our case, we had witnesses, we used tapes from the deposition and we presented our case. Everybody agreed, all 27 jurors agreed that, yes, it's quite possible that two people could end up in a Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. Yes, it's quite possible that something sexual could happen in that dressing room in 1996. And yes, it's quite possible that one of them was E. Jean Carlin. One of them was Donald Trump. And the thing they did not agree on was they thought that I was begging him for it. Why did they think that? Because they are seeing an old woman testify, a dislocated old crone. They could not picture my hair at the Time was long and, you know, and I was. They couldn't picture it. They. They didn't have the imagination. So I had been saying to Robbie, robbie, we're gonna have to young me down. I gotta look fuckable.

[B]

And we're talking about Robbie Kaplan, your lawyer.

[D]

Yeah. Okay. The greatest mind of her generation. And she kept saying, don't worry, Adrian. We'll show them pictures. Well, pictures didn't work. So I found the hairdresser that did my hair every day in 1996 for a talk show that I had. Her name is Lisa Corbelli. All rise and salute. She did the exact haircut, the exact hair color, the exact makeup she did every day during 1996. And here's the COVID The clothes I wore. See this jacket? That's from Bergdorf, 1993. I wore clothes from that time. So that's what we did. And I didn't look like I looked in 1993, but I looked enough like somebody who could have looked like I looked in 1990 that the jury understood it. And I like the wig so much. This is. This is Trixie. I have, like, here. I have Trudy over here.

[B]

Oh, you name your wigs?

[D]

Oh, yeah, I got Trixie, Trudy, Tallulah, and Thomasita. And they're all. This is $8.88.

[B]

No way. Oh, my gosh.

[D]

88 cents. You gotta cut it. Yeah, but. Yeah, no, they're great.

[B]

Wow. Another scene that really stood out to us was when you had to get various psychiatric evaluations. Two from your side, but then one from Trump's side, and it was his third choice psychiatrist, because the other two dropped out. Tell us about that one and what it was like for you.

[D]

Not even the third choice. They couldn't get anybody. They couldn't. There are many sexual assault trauma psychiatrists and psychologists in America. Many hundreds, I would say, maybe thousands of real true experts. Of course, we hired the best. One of those experts, the very woman who created the sexual assault protocol for the United States Air Force. She created the sexual assault protocol for the United States veterans. She had her Harvard rape study. She had her Duke rape. She was great. Dr. Leslie Leibowitz. TRUMP could not find anybody who could argue against Dr. Leslie Leibowitz's conclusions because she was so. Well, she was so smart, knew what she was talking about. So finally, they dug up Dr. Edgar P. Nace. And doctor, he was an expert in. Nace is the ace. Exactly. And he was an expert in alcoholism, which had nothing to do with our case. But he gave it the old College shot. And he spent most of our time asking me a single question. He had read Dr. Leslie Leibowitz's report, and she had reported that she had spent three days with me. We were actually locked in a room. Three days, and then six more hours on Zoom. He was so curious and eaten up with, I don't know, jealousy, envy, curiosity of how she could have spent three days asking me questions. And so that's what he wanted to know. We very rarely talked to it. I don't. We must have talked about the event. I don't. It was so. So brief. I can't recall. He was like. And why did. What did you talk about with Dr. Leslie Leibowitz? What. What did Dr. Leslie Leibowitz find to ask you about? Did she ask a question? I don't know what. What. You were. Was it three days? You were. Dr. Leather Lee. What did I say? And six hours of zooms. Dr. Nay. His conclusion was that he didn't know what happened, and he couldn't say what happened, but if it did happen, I was lying. That was his conclusion.

[B]

That was the conclusion.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

So, yeah, okay. And I had never been to a therapist before, so to be saddled with two of them. Oh, God.

[B]

But thanks to bringing that case and you so bravely going through all of the drama of the trial, Trump was actually convicted of those crimes of defamation.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And sexual assault. And the jury found he owes you something like $83 million in damages. Have you seen any of it yet? And does it matter to you?

[D]

Oh, yeah, no, because I want to give it away. I want to give it away to everything that, you know, everything he hates. The main the outcome was we were the first people to make him pay for his lies. He was being forced to pay for lying. And Robbie Kaplan, in that trial was in the middle of giving her final argument to the jury. And the jury, by the way, was mesmerized by Trump. He misbehaved the entire time he was in court, just belittled. His attorneys snorted. You could hear almost everything under his breath, continually saying, I've never met the woman. I don't know who the woman is. And eye forking the judge. He hated the judge. He'd say, nasty man all under his. The jury could hear it all. I mean, the jury. The jury was. Well, they could hear it all because I could hear it all, and my attorneys could hear it all. And so the jury was mesmerized by him. The most powerful man on earth is sitting there in the courtroom acting up. And so Robbie's in her final argument, and she. What she's doing is she's listing his wealth to the jury. She is taking. Remember the New York fraud trial? Letitia James?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. He did a deposition for that case, and he listed all his wealth. Mar a Lago, you know, 1.5. His golf club, 4 Point, his brand, $10 billion. Robbie is listing this for the jury. And she drove him so insane that he stood up with steam coming off the top of his head and smoke coming off his back. His face was familiar. And he walked out of court.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

Now, if you're a juror sitting a jury, you see who turns and leaves. Like, people who are guilty. Right. Not people who are not innocent. People would listen to it and say, oh, my God, listen to this. You know? But he actually ran. So he lost the case right there by walking out. Didn't have enough control to even sit and listen to Robbie. And that's the man who's running our lives right now. No control whatsoever. He was also campaigning during this. Right, right. And so during breaks on the weekends and stuff, he'd go out and say everything the judge had told him. So he was addressing the jury constantly. So they got a good look, and then they voted, and it was $83 million. You know, that's what they thought of how he behaved. So that was interesting.

[B]

And you haven't seen any of it yet?

[D]

Well, he just lost his final appeal in the second circuit of United States Court of Appeals. Now he has 70 days left to appeal to the Supreme Court. That is the. For on the first trial, the fight that won sexual abuse and defamation. I'm surprised you haven't gone to the Supreme Court yet. They will lose. And then if the banking system is still in place, then I will receive the 100 million, because by that time, it's 100 million because of that. And then we can give it away to women's rights.

[C]

Well, I hope you keep some of it for yourself.

[D]

I'm not really into money. I don't really care. I don't really. I don't really just want to make.

[C]

Sure you're, like, you know, set up.

[D]

I got enough.

[C]

You don't have to worry about it.

[D]

I got enough to buy this, and I'm happy.

[C]

Great. Okay. Oh, wonderful. Vaseline.

[D]

Best face cream in the world, right? I don't need the $80 face cream. It's just the old Vaseline.

[B]

Okay, let's take a break, and we will be right back.

[C]

You know, Elise, I have found that sometimes the most uncomfortable thing about a mat mattress is its price.

[B]

Yeah, they're so expensive sometimes, like when you go into the store and get.

[C]

Sticker shock because it's like totally not. And not just to your wallet, but also to the earth. But Lisa is not just luxury comfort at a reasonable price. They prioritize doing good for the world. And we love a company that puts their intention into action.

[B]

We sure do.

[C]

Yeah. They donate thousands of mattresses each year to those in need. They also partner with organizations like Clean Hub to help remove harmful plastic waste from our oceans. And as for the price tag, Leesa mattresses are not only 30% off for their Labor Day sale right now, but you also get an extra $50 off for being a Forever 35 listener. Just use the code forever. And Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep without the luxury price tag. In fact, they're so comfortable, the mattress has been dubbed very comfortable by my son.

[B]

That's a high rating. That's probably the highest rating. Yes.

[C]

Honestly. Yes. He sleeps on the Lisa Kids mattress, which is specially designed for growing bodies with multiple layers of memory foam. And it's Green Guard certified. Lisa has also been tested and awarded the best hybrid mattress by New York Times Wirecutter and is exclusively featured by West Elm as their go to mattress partner. So now go to Lisa.com for 30% off a mattress plus get an extra 50 off with promo co exclusive for our listeners. That's L E-E-S A.com promo code forever for 30 off a mattress plus an extra 50 off. Be sure to enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you Lisa.com promo code forever.

[F]

Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible. Overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing. A SOFI personal loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stunt to learn more. Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

[C]

I knew you for decades as the advice columnist for Elle magazine. I, you know, I'd been reading you since I was probably a teenager and so, you know, that was kind of your identity for so long. And now I feel like this has kind of become your identity and I'm wondering what that's been like for you over the over these past few years.

[D]

Well, I've been reading you too, Dory. Come on I mean, we're all journalists together. Yeah, it's great. And now, now you're a podcaster. I mean, now I'm a podcaster. Keeping life interesting, girls. Keeping life interesting. This is what we do. And when.

[B]

When we change is constant.

[D]

Yes, that's it. That's it. And that's what we're doing. And well, right now we all gotta get off our lazy asses, so everybody should change themselves. Instead of talk about changing the world, we should change ourselves first and get off our lazy asses, because what's going on is not good, as you well know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that because is there anything about the way that Trump has behaved in this second administration, the second time at bat as president, that has surprised you? Or is this basically kind of a continuation of an arc that you're very familiar with?

[D]

Who could have foreseen the swiftness in which the United States of America crumbled to his command? Who could have foreseen it? Nobody could have foreseen it. I don't care if people say they could have foreseen it. Nobody could have seen how swiftly it was done. The country is now absolutely flat. I mean, he's pulled out the insides of the government, taking away, you know, completely reversed all the hard work on sexual equality. You know, it's just. It's just been devastating. It's devastating. So, yeah, I think we gotta not be quiet any longer.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have actually beaten him in court. Like you are one of the few people who, as you mentioned, has actually been able to. To hold him accountable for lying, but also been victorious in this public, both public and legal battle against him. Did you learn anything from that about how to challenge?

[D]

Yeah, I did. I learned I was the only woman on earth to beat Donald Trump twice. And I'm an 81 year old dislocated crone. So what I learned is if I can do it, anybody can do it. Just think there's nobody lower or weaker than an old old lady. And this old old lady took him on and beat the shit out of him. So it's great. Of course, I had the best attorney in the country, you know, Robby Kaplan, and nothing scares her, nothing. She's only this big. She is tiny.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, yeah. And no, just that's all it takes. If we just would stand up, you know, but everybody in Congress is like, the Republicans, are the Republicans. Geez, they're terrified of him. I don't understand it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is kind of mystic.

[D]

I don't I don't. I don't know you. Can you explain it to me? What do you think?

[B]

Performance of power Cult. Like, I. I feel like it's a. He's a branding genius like his one. The one thing he's really good at is marketing and branding and.

[C]

Himself.

[B]

Yes, himself. And so. But then also his opponents. Right. And so.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[B]

No, if you're not. If you can't see through that, or you believe that your constituents can't see through it, then you just go with it. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's just a personality at this point.

[D]

Well, he is the smartest man. He's one of the smartest men the last century. Really? Nobody. Who else has taken over the entire United States in three months? I mean, nobody. Not even the founding father. So he is smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That you. That you label that Brandon Wayne.

[B]

Yes. He had. Right? He has. He has a kind of intellect, for sure. Yes.

[D]

Major. Major. Right. He reads a room really fast. He didn't read our jury, by the way, that he did not see that coming. But to me, he's just full of hot air and can be prick, prick, prick. But nobody stands up to do it. When two ladies stood up and did it, he went down like a ton of bricks.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So we just presented evidence. We've learned from what works, and.

[C]

I.

[D]

Hope people can benefit from it, but I don't think so. I don't think they will. I think they're too demoralized and too. You know, they're trying on cosmetics in Bergdorf's basement, and they're keeping themselves happy because everybody's terrified. And you have that one nice thing, oh, this blush looks really good. And you get in a great mood for the day because you look pretty. And we run into a friend on the street and go have coffee. She says you look really pretty. What'd you do? Oh, I got the new blush so that, you know, that's our lives now, but underneath it's crumbling. What do you think, Dory? What do you think?

[C]

What do I think about why he's so popular?

[D]

Yeah, you're rocking in your chair. I can see you rocking.

[C]

Yeah, I'm kind of, like, mulling all of this over. I don't disagree with anything either of you has been saying. But I. I do think there's this other element that kind of goes along with his ability to read the room and his ability to, like, read the electorate. And I think he was able to tap into politics of victimhood and aggrievement in a way that the Democrats were not able to counter at all. And I think, you know, and that goes along with what the rest of what you were saying. Like, he was able to kind of brand things really well, but he.

[D]

That thing about victimhood is good because he met. He caught that nature of the country right away. Yeah, boy. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And then also, when you have no sense of shame, you know, when you have no shame, it turns out it can take you really far.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes. That's it. And we should all learn that lesson. We should have no shame and just go out and do what we want to do. Yeah. Wait a minute. I'm writing that note down. Have. Have no shame. Have no shame. Okay, I like that. I like that. That's what Democrats feel. Shame.

[B]

I know. It's constantly. Yeah, well, that's what's. That's the constant knock against Democrats. Right? Like all of the focus grouping and the cowering and the like. Yeah, politeness, exactly. You don't want to be rude.

[D]

Boy, that is really happening. And half the Republicans feel the same way. At least a. What's her name from Alaska. She feels shame, you know, that it's not just Democrats. Yeah. Murkowski, she feels it, too. That's right. We've got to have no shame. We're going to have no shame, ladies. Okay. I like it.

[C]

I want to ask you. I want to also ask you about the process of writing the book, because we discussed at the beginning about how this was kind of a surprise. No one knew it was coming. When did you know you wanted to write a book? And what was the process of writing it like for you? How long did it take you?

[D]

Also, I knew I wanted to write a book the minute I stepped in that courtroom. Because, remember, I'm an old journalist, 50 years, and I was immediately taken by the whole world. I was entering. So I was at the end of every night, this is me right into the thing. So I yammered into my phone, into. I took video. I didn't do voice. I did video so I could see where I was as I was talking, so I could capture the moment. So I had. I was overloaded with every small detail every. Every day. And so I had the court crimes, I had the depositions, I had videos, I had everything. And I had characters that nobody in the world could have dreamed of. And of course, I wanted to write the book. As I was sitting in court, I was every now and again writing on a post it. So, yeah, I was itching to write this book. Itching. It was easy to write because it wrote itself.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's a very easy read, too, because it's so entertaining.

[D]

Thank you, Elise.

[B]

Obviously, we're devastated by what you had to go through and what you had to live in order to get to this trial and writing about the trial. But you have to, obviously, lived a full life. And before we let you go, Eugene Carroll, you wrote an advice column for many years, and we often get a lot of questions, advice questions from our listeners. And so I just know you get advice from you on giving advice. What kind of framework, like, what do you apply and how do you think about questions when other people ask you for advice?

[D]

Well, I just listen very closely or read very closely, and then I figure out what they want me to say, and then I tell them to go do it. No, really, the answer to everybody's question is generally inside the question. And a lot of times, people, they just want to have that shove that gets them going. You know, women who write to me about horrible lovers, I mean, doing the most despicable things in the world, they just need that final push to get him the hell out the door. So that's basically what a Greater Vice columnist does. You have really listened to what they want to do, because no matter what you tell them, they're going to do it anyway. So at least give them a shove in the proper way to do it.

[B]

Okay. Great advice about advice. Thank you. E. Jean Carroll.

[D]

Thank you.

[C]

E. Jean, where can our listeners find you? I know you have a substack. Do you want to mention that?

[D]

Well, thank you for E. Jean Carroll. Substack, Eugene. Carol. Substack. But, you know, you don't need to look for me. All you need to do is grab joy. You know, I want everybody out there to love your podcast. You're all about enjoying, you know, entering the New Year's, you know, to watch your podcast, to pick up the tips and grab the joy when it comes along. You don't need to look for E. Jean Carroll anywhere. Eugene. Carol is doing just fine where she is, but I want you to grab the joy, you know?

[B]

Thank you so much.

[D]

Thank you. I love it. I love it.

[C]

No, she was so. She was so herself.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And so delightful and so smart and insightful, and she's just been through so much. I feel like it's like a cliche to be like, she's so strong, but, like, she is. She's really strong. She really had to, like. I mean, what she did is, like, truly unbelievable. So I know. And she didn't love you, Eugene, if you're listening.

[B]

Absolutely. And she. What I admire is how she did it with such a sense of humor and curiosity the entire time, like she was observing. She writes about how some of the things would happen to her in court, and she would, like, make a note to herself that she needed to write this down. So just like that, that instinct to be able to find levity despite the weight of what she was going through and has had to live, I think is just a gift to the rest of us. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Thanks, Eugene.

[C]

Well, Elise, did you increase your exercise last week?

[B]

Okay, funny story. Funny story. I did start. I did start, and I was, like, back into jogging, and I was feeling great, and then I signed up for these blood tests that I need to do, which I talked about on the casual chat for function health. And it's two days of blood tests over different days, because one day you have to be on your period, and then on the other, can't be on your period, and you have to fast and not exercise.

[C]

Geez.

[B]

So my. Like, it got in the way of my intention a bit towards the back.

[C]

Understandable. Understandable.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah, I felt good, just kind of getting a little bit back into that routine. What about you? What was your intention?

[C]

My intention last week was about Henry starting school. Just kind of wanting to get him off on the right foot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I feel like that went well. He had a. He had what seemed to be a great first day, and. Yeah. So I think that went well this week. I think, like, I think I actually would like to rejoin a gym, but I just don't have the budget for that right now. So I do want to get back into, like, a strength routine. I was doing really well for a while, and then I think all the stuff with tennis just really took over. And, I mean, there were some weeks where I played tennis every day, and, like, that's just. That's a lot. And so I didn't have time for anything else. But this week, like, I haven't. I didn't play tennis the last couple of, like, last few days. I didn't play tennis Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and I didn't do anything else. So I'm like, I could have just done some strength stuff because I do feel like it's so important. So I want to. I want to get back into it. And what about you?

[B]

Are you done for tennis? Sorry? Are you done with tennis for the most part until sectionals, or are y' all gonna run practices and things?

[C]

You mean Nationals.

[B]

Oh, sorry. Nationals. Sorry, I didn't mean to demote this. Excuse you exactly. I know. Not a mistake you wanna make.

[C]

It's actually a really weird, crazy time seasonally for adult recreational tennis because we're finishing up our mixed double season. We're also finishing up our tri level season, and then we're also about to start our fall double season while also prepping for nationals. So it's actually like a very weirdly busy tennis time right now.

[D]

Oh, boy.

[C]

So, yeah.

[B]

Wow. Okay. So you. You do not get much of a break, tldr.

[C]

No, we don't.

[B]

Well, I'll just crowd. I will just call back to what I was talking about before our interview, which is we are going to Crowdfund for Windswept, my documentary about kids who are growing up in a time of natural disaster. And this weekend we're going to make like a promo video, a social media. Social media promo video for the Crowdfund. And so this next week is going to be about kind of outreach and doing the things that you have to do. Like before you have a book come out and you gotta ask your friends to pre order and all those things. I'm kind of prepping that email again. I'm back in that world. But I'm really excited about it. Like, I feel more passionate about this than I even did about Flawless, which was my first and only book. And so I'm excited about it. It's just like I gotta get my ducks in a row and organize a list and all of those things. So that'll be my intention for the week that we can check back in on next week.

[C]

Okay. Well, I'm excited. All right. And this is also the monthly episode where we thank our Patreon supporters at the $10 level and above. I can read. I can read these names this month.

[B]

All right, go for it.

[C]

Thank you to the following supporters. Christy Heather Whaley, Caitlin H. Katie Ashley Taylor Theresa Anderson Michelle Maya Barbara Chiakalos Amy Amy Schnitzer Megan Helen De Moy Shelley Lee Kim Begler Sarah Sarah Boozy, Allison Cohen Susan Burseth, Melissa McLean Fran Kelsey Wolf Donne Laura Eddy Jettle Apte Valerie Bruno Jane Thoreau Julie Daniel E. Jackson Amy Maseko Liz Rain JDK Jennifer Smith Hannah M. Julia Putt, Maddie o' Day Marissa Lauren Gitlin Sarah Bell Maria Diana Cocoa Bean Laura Hadden, Josie H. Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres Tiffany G. Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Germana, Olivia Fahey, Elizabeth A. Christine Bassis, Allison Marklane, Jessica Gale, Zulima Lundy Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Gold and T. Nikki Katherine Ellingson, Kara Brugman, Sarah H, Sarah Egan, Jess Combin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie Jordan, Sarah M. Kate M. Josie Alquist, Tara Todd, Elizabeth Cleary and Monica. Thank you all so much. We are so grateful for your support. If you want to support us on Patreon, you can do [e-mail] forever35 we do casual chat bonus episodes every week. We do a pop culture recommendations episode every week. You also get ad free episodes at the $10 level or above. There's a lot of fun stuff happening over there. And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks everyone.

[B]

Thank you all so much. Talk to you next time.

[C]

Bye. Right now, what's one thing you could do to change your life for the better? Well, for me, I love my Masterclass subscription. I've been learning more about perimenopause and how the mind body connection can change symptoms and mood from the magic of menopause. And not to be dramatic, but it's kind of changed my life. With Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. Download classes and watch them offline, which is perfect for making the most of your time spent traveling this summer. With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. With Masterclass you get thousands of bite sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest of schedules. Eat more ethically, healthfully and sustainably with Michael Pollan, build habits that stick with atomic habits, author James Clear, and take care of your gut, brain, skin and more with science based tips from leading experts. Three in four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch Masterclass. And right now, Forever 35 listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Forever 35 that's 15% [e-mail] Forever 35 masterclass.com Forever 35.

[F]

Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible, overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing, a SoFi personal loan. With it you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stuck to learn more. Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.