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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.
- [00:17]
B
And I'm Elise Hu.
- [00:18]
C
And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
- [00:21]
A
Today we have an exciting guest, Lauren Pacelle, who is, like. She's a. She's like a publicist for podcasts, but I would say she's, like, much more than that.
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C
She's a podcast super listener. She's a podcast.
- [00:36]
A
She is.
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C
And. And she is a human curator of what to be listening to right now. Longtime listener of Forever 35. So we're touched and delighted by that. But also, she has led us to so many of our wonderful guests who are podcasters, and she also just. Just as, you know, a friend and as somebody that I read, she has awesome recommendations of shows that I would have never otherwise heard of. So we have Lauren on the show to just talk about what's out there right now, talk about big trends in the industry. And we broke things down into categories for y', all, if you're looking for your next great listen.
- [01:16]
A
Yeah, I feel like people are always asking for podcast recommendations, and it was just nice to hear from someone who has a lot of them.
- [01:23]
C
Yeah, yeah. Do you listen to anything regularly besides our own show?
- [01:28]
A
I listen to some news podcasts. Like, I listen to, like, up first, and I listen to the daily. Yeah, I don't actually listen to a ton of chat shows, I have to admit.
- [01:38]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [01:39]
A
What about you?
- [01:39]
C
She talks about one that I am super into, or maybe I brought it up in the course of this conversation. One of my favorite chat shows is if Books Could Kill. And it's not explicitly a chat show because it's also heavily researched. And it's about, like, airport Books. And they deconstruct the arguments of airport books. Like, they take apart the four Hour Work Week and Atomic Habits. Their one on the Anxious Generation is really fascinating. So if y' all aren't already hip to if Books Could Kill, that's a good one. And then because we live in Los Angeles and we're surrounded by people who are in the entertainment industry, I also like to listen occasionally, but not regularly, to the podcasts from Puck. So Puck, the news organization that's sort of at the intersection of media and business in Hollywood, they do a show that my friend Peter Hamby hosts called Powers that Be. And that's pretty good to keep me updated on, like, what the insiders are saying about Wall street and Washington and what's going on with the potential whatever next merger or super conglomerate is being formed. And then there's the Matt Bellany one. But I feel like I'm too removed.
- [02:49]
A
I'm like the town.
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C
Yeah, the town. And I'm like a step removed from that business of Hollywood stuff. Like, I don't really care about box office numbers.
- [02:58]
A
Right.
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C
So that's one that I listen to occasionally if, like, the description is interesting to me. Oh, like during the strike it was good, like, because I wanted to know when the strikes were going to be over or the labor dispute was going to be resol. And so I thought that was helpful to me because it affected the entire micro economy here.
- [03:18]
A
Yes, yes, yes.
- [03:20]
C
I'm listening to Money with Katie, which I've talked about. And Lauren, just a little tease, Lauren recommends another podcast from the same Katie that we're talking about of Money With Katie. But we'll save it to let Lauren talk about it.
- [03:36]
A
Yes. Well, what else is happening with you, Elise?
- [03:40]
C
We just started post production. So when this is airing, post production on Windswept will have begun. Our editor starts full time today putting together the finished documentary or the rough cut of the documentary that I have been shooting for a year. And the archival producer starts today, too. And so I have been busy kind of in the background doing all the interviews and reference checks and things for those two positions. And we love who we brought on. Two amazing women of color. The editor to a documentary is so vital because they essentially write the documentary like the the the film is written. I'm doing air quotes right now because y' all can't see me. The film is written in the edit. And so like when we were in negotiation with her, she wanted to make sure, for example, that she got a written by credit because editors are so vital to a documentary. And so she starts today. The archival producer starts today. I'm really excited about this next stage, but anxious about continuing to raise money so that they can be paid for as long as possible.
- [04:54]
A
Can you let our listeners know how they can support the film?
- [04:59]
C
Yes, please go to windsweptfilm.com and then you can watch the trailer and meet these four kids that I've been talking to y' all about on and off throughout the last year. And also there's a button where you can make a tax deductible contribution. Any amount helps. We would love that. And then you can just join the Windswept family because there's hundreds of folks who have contributed now, like in this grassroots effort. And I'm continuing to do a lot of grant applications, but it is a lot of work to do that. But I'm starting to realize that a lot of the prompts are similar. So so long as I save my previous work, I can kind of edit for the next one.
- [05:40]
A
And when can you. What? When can you like submit it to festivals and stuff like that? It has to be totally done when there's a.
- [05:48]
C
When there's a cut, a final cut of the film. And so we're hoping, I mean, we're not in a rush. The Sundance deadline is I think every year in September or late September. But our editor is taking a maternity leave in March and we were really like, like, we really stressed with her that, look, we're not going to. We'd rather have a great finished film than a film that met some sort of arbitrary deadline. So really excited about that. That's kind of the big headline right now. And then same stuff, man. My weekends are full of volleyball gyms and soccer fields.
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A
And is this just like your life now until they're like 18? Like, how does. I mean, I don't know, like, how does this work?
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C
I'm sort of laughing because I don't want to catastrophize and project forward and be like, oh my gosh, this is my life now. Because our friend of ours.
- [06:41]
A
I didn't, I didn't mean to say it like that.
- [06:44]
C
Yeah, no, no, no. I. Thankfully, I love both sports. I love watching both sports. And Nicholas Thompson, the publisher of the Atlantic, I think he just wrote a recent. He's a big runner, I think like an ultra marathoner or something. And he wrote a book recently about his life hacks or what's made things work for him to flourish. And one point that he made was that like, he made sure that his kids activities overlapped with his own joy. So it's not like my, like, for example, I wouldn't enjoy it if my kids were in mma, you know, like, because you can't. Like, I just don't enjoy it as much. And so. But my kids are in sports that I love watching and then they have made choices to be on teams where the parents are awesome. I was with a parent this morning who was like, I'm so glad my kids are at the school that they're at because the parents are great. There's no asshole parents. And that makes a huge difference. That's been the case with my kids friends and all their grades too. Like, our school community is really awesome and we've had ones in previous schools which have Been less awesome. So like I have the relativity there. And yeah, so I don't mind per se. I'm really concerned more about the money. It's extremely expensive for volleyball in particular because of the rules. There's all these rules about where you stay and it has to be the tournament hotel. And there's rules about when you fly and you can't fly until after 7pm on Sunday night, for example. And if you can't fly until then, it limits you to like maybe one or two flights out of Reno or St. Louis or these places with fewer flights. And then the flights, like right now there's a bunch of parents who are in the chat talking about how flights to Reno and back are like $1700. What? Yeah. And it's like, nah, no one wants to do that to Reno. And so everybody's joking about like trying to win it back at the craps table.
- [08:48]
A
Oh my gosh.
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C
Yeah. So I don't know how long I am for that world, actually. We'll see. Just we take it one, one season at a time.
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A
Totally. On that note, let's introduce our guest.
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C
So excited.
- [09:02]
A
Lauren Pacell is the founder of Tink Media, an award winning podcast marketing and PR company. And podcast the newsletter, a podcast recommendation newsletter. She speaks about podcast growth in classrooms and for conferences all over the world. And before we get to Lauren, just a reminder that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. You can join our patreon@patreon.com Forever35. We are doing our casual chats on video now, which is super fun. We are also planning on doing quarterly live casual chats for our Patreon supporters. We do our monthly pop culture episodes. There's a Patreon chat. There's a lot happening. We do our Forever 35 questionnaire which is like a little bonus interview with our guests every week. Those are super fun. We've gotten some great book recommendations, some great candle recommendations. Yeah, those are. Those are just great. So you can do all that@patreon.com Forever35. Oh, and ad free episodes. I forgot about that. We have so much on our Patreon. Yeah, you can shop our favorite products@shopmy us forever35. And if you want to reach us, you can call us at 781-591-0390 or text us at that number and email us@forever35podcastmail.com. I also forgot to mention one more thing. If you don't want to pay for our Patreon, you can sign up as a free member and still get our newsletter.
- [10:30]
C
How fun is that? Yes.
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A
And now we will take a little break and we will be back with Lauren.
- [10:36]
C
We'll be right back.
- [10:44]
A
Lauren, welcome to Forever35. We are so excited to have you on the show.
- [10:50]
B
Thank you for having me. I am an original listener. Wow. Yeah. And I've known Dory. I've known Dory for a long time. So this. This is really, really un. Kind of unbelievable that I'm going to be on. Like, I can't believe it. I really, truly can't believe.
- [11:05]
A
It is a real. It's a real full circle moment. We both worked at Rolling Stone in the early aut teens, as they say. Because I left rolling stone in 2012 and I think you stayed for a few more years.
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B
I wasn't at Rolling Stone. I was at Little Brown when I helped publish startup.
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C
No, you weren't at Full Publishing.
- [11:29]
A
Oh, yeah, that's right.
- [11:31]
B
Yes, yes, yes. But I have. I wish I worked at Rolling Stone. That sounds way cooler than Little. Little Brown. So cool. Yeah. No, but.
- [11:43]
C
Ooh.
- [11:43]
B
I have a story that I've never gotten to talk to you about this. We might have to cut it out. Isn't that always the best stuff?
- [11:49]
C
Is, like, just go there. Yes. That's good podcasting.
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B
I don't know if you remember this. No, it makes me look bad, and I've never gotten over it. I don't even know if I told you about this, Elise.
- [11:58]
A
What?
- [11:59]
B
I was working on, like, graphics for you or something for your. Like, a promotional something. And you sent me your. And I was just. I just passed it along to the art department. I was like, cool, we need this photo. Go do it.
- [12:13]
C
They.
- [12:14]
B
You're not gonna believe this if you don't remember this. They tweaked your. They didn't think you were smiling enough. Do you remember this? They changed it slightly. Oh, my God. And I didn't notice. It was so slight. And I was just like, thank you. And I passed. Mm. And I never said anything because I was. I was much. I was younger and dumb. Like, listen. I was, like, horrified. Cause I was like, this is, like, comical. They were like, this woman is not smiling enough. We're going to change this.
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C
We're gonna make her smile.
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B
And then it looked like I did it.
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A
Do you know what I mean?
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B
Like, I was like, you guys. So anyway. But I should have noticed it. So I was, like, horrified. And then I'M just like, this is Dory, who Dory thinks I am now. And I've never. Honestly, Dory, it's been haunting me for years. So if nothing else, I'm glad that we're here now. You don't even remember.
- [13:07]
A
It's so funny. And I.
- [13:08]
C
It's so funny. I don't rem something in which it, like, lives rent free in your mind with regard to your relationship with Dory, but Dory didn't even remember it.
- [13:17]
B
Okay, thanks, guys. It's been great. Thanks for having me on the show. Bye.
- [13:22]
A
I mean, I think it also just points to, like, there were so many other things going on at the time.
- [13:28]
C
Yes.
- [13:29]
A
And that. And that was just like one of many things. And this is now ringing, like a vague bell. I think they changed it back as I recall.
- [13:38]
B
Well, you were like, are you kidding me? They changed my smile. And I was like, yes, they did. And I went. And I was. I don't know. I had to have a talk with them. I just can't believe how absurd that you would. I don't know, it's comical. It's like cartoonish funny. Someone would do that anyway.
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A
Well, okay.
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C
Funny story.
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B
To start things off. I'm glad. I feel. I feel better. I feel physically better. I'm glad we did this.
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A
Good.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad that we were able to have this cathartic moment.
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C
Yeah. And this is a great space for it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But we are unfortunately not here to talk about the book that I wrote nine years ago. Oh, my God.
- [14:20]
B
My gosh.
- [14:21]
A
So long ago.
- [14:22]
B
Yeah.
- [14:22]
A
But we are here to talk about your life now as a podcast publicist, newsletter writer, guru, knower of all things. But we do start off by asking our guests, as you know, about a self care practice that they have. So is there something that you would consider self care? It can be podcast related or not.
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B
Ever since I was like, old enough to bathe or shower by myself, like my whole. Ever since I was a little kid, I didn't tell anyone I did this until I was 21. It's something I call shower belly. I'm not joking. Every single day, I make a I lather. If you come up with something else, let me know. I lather a layer of soap. It has to be a bar soap onto my belly. Like really, like, it has to be. It takes a long time. You have to really get the lather going. And then I draw on it every day.
- [15:22]
C
Oh, I love this.
- [15:25]
B
It's really weird.
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C
Kind of sacred ritual that you've always.
- [15:29]
B
It's really weird. And.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I. I was like, on a first date or something with somebody, and I was like. I was always like, don't even tell anyone this. And I had, like, one glass of wine and this guy had nothing to talk about. And I was like, ran out of things quickly. And I told him about it, and he was like. He thought it was very weird. And I was like, well, the cat's out of the bag now. You have to tell. You can tell people. It's a safe. He knows. This guy you just met knows. So anyway, I still do it. It never looks. People are like, what do you draw? I'm like, it doesn't matter what you draw. It never looks. Right. It's more of a. I don't know. It's. Yes.
- [16:01]
C
I like that you get to kind of be in your body, you know, it's like the same one that you've always had. It's the same one since you were born. I like that. Yeah, that's very sweet.
- [16:10]
B
It's like a moment. The shower is a good time to just not. Speaking of podcasts, it's like the only time I'm not listening to podcasts. You know, it's. I don't know.
- [16:19]
C
You're not going to get one of those JBL waterproof speakers for your shower.
- [16:22]
B
No need to draw a line somewhere. Yeah. It's the only safe space I have.
- [16:28]
C
How many podcasts are out there now? Because I feel like I've heard some figure, some ridiculous figure.
- [16:34]
B
I feel like I've heard like 4 million or something. But the thing is, most of them are not active when someone is making too much of a big deal or flexing a little too hard that they're in the top 1% or something. If someone's flexing about that too much, it's like a sign that they don't know that the one top 1% means 1% of any podcast that's ever started, any podcast that's ever had a single episode. So it's still. It's not a. It's cool to have a podcast and keep it going. It's a lot of work. It's hard. But that 1%, I hear that 1% a lot. And I'm like, yeah, you and a lot of people. So there's so, so, so many. When you hear those numbers, think it's so much less. The people that are actually publishing on a consistent schedule. And, you know, I have more than.
- [17:23]
C
One episode, like, industry knowledge. I like this all Right. How do you decide what to listen to in this sea of shows in this abundant field?
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B
I mean, I have. I like to listen to things to know what's going on. Obviously, I don't listen to New Heights, the Kelsey Brothers podcast, but I listen to the Taylor Swift episode. Um, and it was an amazing episode. Like, freakishly amazing. How perfect she was. Like, I'm not even a Taylor Swift fan. But it was. I will do that. I'll listen to something that I think is noteworthy, but then I listen to a lot of my favorites just nonstop. I. If, you know, if I. If I'm listening to a show and there's a guest that I like, I'll go find out if they've been on other podcasts or if they have a podcast. I will frequently put Josh Gondelman in Spotify and listen to every single thing he's ever guested on, just because that's a way to discover funny shows. And he's the best guest. He's going to make any show incredible. Yes.
- [18:25]
A
Okay.
- [18:26]
B
That's a tip. If you find a guest, just search for them on Spotify. But yeah, and then if someone recommends something to me, like, and really means it, I will always, always listen to something someone recommends me, no matter what, because I think it's telling me something about that person, and I am hungry for new things to listen to.
- [18:45]
C
That just reminded me that we had somebody, Josh Gondelman adjacent on last year. We had Maris Kreisman on last year, who is Josh's partner.
- [18:54]
B
I know.
- [18:55]
C
And also a delightful guest. Oh, my gosh. And an interviewer. Great interviewer as well.
- [19:00]
B
Well, I kind of was parallel to her when I was in book publishing, so I was, like, a fan of hers first. And, yeah, I often, like, daydream that they'll adopt me, or I could have a slumber party at their house or something. Do you think they would let me do that? I just want to, like, hang out with her.
- [19:17]
C
You put it out into the universe.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [19:21]
B
If next time you're talking to her, throw it out there.
- [19:24]
A
So, Lauren, we wanted to kind of break down your faves by sort of general categories, and I'd like to start with the category that I would put ourselves in, which is chat shows like ours, like, where you feel like the hosts are kind of your friends.
- [19:44]
B
I think one of my favorites is, I believe you had Lindy west on.
- [19:49]
C
The show and her friend and her and Megan.
- [19:54]
A
Yes.
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B
I think that is one of those shows that I don't know why more people aren't listening to. You know, it's like there's so many, obviously. But that reminds me of call your girlfriend, which I don't know if people remember that old. That was an old school. One of the OGs.
- [20:10]
C
Yeah. And Amina Tao.
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A
So.
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B
Yeah. And they are not technically comedians, I guess. No, Lindy is, but, like, they're. Megan is hysterical and she works in D.C. you know, like. And you. You all know how funny they are. That's one. I also think.
- [20:24]
C
I think people, we should note to listeners, that show is called Text me back.
- [20:27]
B
Text me back. Oh, my goodness. Yes. Text me back, Selena. Text me back. And I also think one of the hits of last year, I think it launched last year, is called Handsome. It's with Tig Notaro and two of her friends. It's a trio of friends, hysterical. Not always about something technically. It's just whatever they talk about is very, very funny. And then it's also, they have a smart format because they'll have a really famous person call in with a question for them to discuss. So it's a smart format because they don't have to. They could get really big names because this person's only sending in a voice note of a question.
- [21:07]
C
Yeah.
- [21:08]
B
They discuss it. So they get like this kind of like, flashy celebrity, and that's called Handsome.
- [21:13]
C
Okay.
- [21:14]
B
And then, I mean, this is like an obvious one, but Amy Poehler's Good Hang is just kind of, I think, unbelievable. I'm not a big celebrity podcast fan, but that one has everything and it's well produced. She. She's famous. It gets big names, but it's also like, unhinged. It's like, they know the rules of podcasting, so they know how they can break the rules. So Good Hang, I think, is another one.
- [21:40]
C
Speaking of format, too, the thing that I like about Good Hang that elevates it above just a conversation with the guest is the beginning, where she calls another friend who knows the guest to ask, like, hey, what should I ask this person? That's always a really fun opportunity to hype up your friend.
- [22:00]
B
Exactly. And it's a good example of how they kind of, like, know the rules enough to know how to break them. Because I think a lot of people don't think enough, like, am I allowed to do that? Like, you can do whatever you want, you know? Like, I love it when people do, like, I love segments. I love stuff like that. So, yeah.
- [22:14]
C
Is there a podcast that you're recommending the most lately?
- [22:19]
B
I mean, I. Of the podcast of the year that I have been recommending a ton is called Debt Heads D E B T Heads. And it is just.
- [22:32]
C
I'm listening.
- [22:33]
B
They call it a true crime podcast on their bank accounts. And it is. But it's documentary style. So it's beautifully made. It's actually beautiful. I don't. I get nervous about money stuff, but it's beautifully and fun made like one episode the host goes to TJ Maxx with her mother and grandmother to discuss their relationship with shopping. So it's like really fun but also a lot about like how did we get in debt historically? You know, like it's so it's really, really smart that one. And then I have to say the one that. So that's called Debt Heads D E B T Heads. But there's a podcast that I have listened to every single day since it began. Since it began in 2016 or 17. Every day. Sometimes twice. Because it is twice a day sometimes. And it's called, it's called the Daily Zeitgeist.
- [23:21]
C
Oh, yes.
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B
And I am in the Zeit gang. And it is humiliating that I identify as a Zeit Gang member. But the thing is I can't get always get people to start listening because it's like so many inside jokes. It's like, yeah, but I'm always like, you have to listen for a full year straight before you really get the hang of it. But it's worth it, trust me. So, you know, I want to go.
- [23:46]
C
Hang out with those. The Zeitgeist at some point.
- [23:50]
B
Sleepover. They should have a sleepover.
- [23:52]
C
Yeah.
- [23:55]
A
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
- [24:06]
C
Okay, next category that we want to jump into. How about. And I know there's fewer of these these days because they're so expensive to make, but how about like engrossing multi part narratives or limited series, I think serial and that type of show.
- [24:24]
B
Okay. I mean the best true crime of all time is. I don't even have a hard time saying. It's called in the Dark. And there's several seasons of in the Dark. It's the, the best example of investigative reporting. I almost kind of. It's also true crime. But there's like a difference between true crime and investigative reporting. Sometimes, you know, this is original reporting. They One of their seasons was about a man that was imprisoned named Curtis Flowers. The podcast helped him get out of jail. He was going to be in jail for the rest of his life. They just had a really good series on the most notorious murder in The UK in the dark is amazing. This year, though, I would recommend a podcast called Wisecrack. Oh, my gosh. It is about this, okay? This standup comedian, it blends stand up comedy and true crime. This standup comic believes that he was nearly murdered in the middle of the night and he uses it as part of his set. And this journalist goes in, she's in Edinburgh at the comedy festival and she hears the set and I don't want to give too much away, but she goes in and tries to investigate what really happened that night. And I'm telling you, I've never heard anything like it. It's called Wisecrack.
- [25:43]
C
Anything else in this category that you like? This makes me think of one from during COVID that I really liked called Dead Eyes. I think I've talked about Dead Eyes.
- [25:52]
B
A lot with Dor, but that's Connor Ratliff.
- [25:56]
C
Connor Ratliff investigates why he didn't get a role in Band of Brothers and whether it was really because Tom Hanks said he. Dead eyes.
- [26:07]
B
The whole thing.
- [26:08]
C
Yeah, it starts with like this fake true crime premise, but really it gets into so much of casting and you know what it's like to work as an artist and, you know, like the various machinations of Hollywood. And I thought it was great.
- [26:26]
B
It was incredible. And his goal the whole time was like, I've got. I've got it. It's a long story, but why he had to get Tom Hanks on the podcast the whole time, the whole.
- [26:35]
C
Because he was the only. Yeah, Tom Hanks really was the only one who could really say definitively, oh, yeah, I said you had dead eyes or I didn't, or I don't remember you at all or whatever it was.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah. And then he gets Tom Hanks. And that episode is one of the best episodes ever. I would also say even just something that was released this year, limited. It was on the embedded feed. It's called Alternate Realities.
- [27:00]
C
Yes.
- [27:01]
B
Basically, his dad had started going down these rabbit holes, like conspiracy theories, like chemtrails, like as crazy as you could believe. And it was really splitting up the family. And so he makes a bet with his dad, and his dad says, I believe these 10 things are going to be true in 2025. And they were really wild things, like the Democrats would murder. I don't. It was psychotic stuff. I can't even remember off the top of my head. And if they happened, he. For every one that happened that he believed would actually happened, Zach would get $1,000. And if it didn't Happen his dad would get. He'd have to pay his dad the $1,000. So.
- [27:43]
C
So $10,000 are at stake.
- [27:45]
B
Yes. And they were really crazy. You're like, how could anyone think that this stuff is going to happen? And they're having conversations about this stuff. And it's really interesting because you're hearing how could someone get this far down this rabbit hole? But it ends up because this bet destroys his family. It is about his mother, his sister, his relationship with his dad and what this kind of thing can do to a family. A normal, smart, beautiful, happy, least seeming family. And I mean, spoiler alert. Like nothing the dad thought was going to happen was going to happen. And now they just did an update about, okay, dad, now what? And another spoiler alert. The dad is wants another bet. There's bet number two. So anyway, highly recommended. A beautiful. Not what I mean, it's wild, but it's also so interesting for this time. We're in right now.
- [28:36]
C
But yeah, so universal in a ways. In a lot of ways.
- [28:39]
B
The more extreme version perhaps is something you're going through at home. But also it's a really hard to. It's a hard story about a family, but it's well done.
- [28:48]
C
Good work.
- [28:49]
B
Have you ever heard of diabolical lies?
- [28:51]
C
I have. One of my girlfriends recommended this to me and I never. I just didn't remember to save it, you know.
- [28:57]
B
So now that you're mentioning it, I mean it is. The episodes are sometimes like two and a half or three hours long.
- [29:04]
C
Yeah, I don't have the time for.
- [29:06]
B
That, but I sometimes listen twice or three times. They're so smart and so funny. So it's like an investment, right? It's like. Yeah, but they are friends. It's chatty. But like every single one I go and think they'll do things on there's. They have an episode about capitalism or Gaza or they just did one like Skinny Talk or you know, like. But I always go in thinking one thing and coming out thinking something totally different or like, like pornography or. So it is an investment. But they put shorter episodes on the main feed and the longer episodes are part of their like Patreon and stuff like that. So I highly recommend if you want like if you're looking for deep dives into really fascinating topics and you can hang. I mean, once again, I listen to so many podcasts, that's nothing for me. So I get it. But really worth it. It's a great community of people.
- [30:03]
C
So for listeners of you're wrong about too or If Books Could Kill, it feels like Diabolical Lies is the same lane or a similar lane. Because I really love you're wrong about. I love if Books Could Kill. I feel like if Books Could Kill is my favorite. And so it seems like I get why somebody recommended this to me now and why you're recommending it to us.
- [30:23]
B
It's funny because I. I made a list of some shows that I thought people might like and some things that were similar. My you're wrong about comp was Diabolical Lies. So yeah, swish.
- [30:37]
A
Well, I guess semi related. Like what are some true crime or real life mysteries that aren't like exploitative or super tropey? You know, you mentioned in the Dark and we talked about a couple other shows, but are there any others that come to mind?
- [30:57]
B
There was a really good podcast called from last year called Beyond All Repair by Amerie Sivertson, who is actually the host of Endless Thread. This was from. Which is another very good podcast about like it started as a Reddit podcast. It's about Internet technology. It's about a woman accused of murdering her mother in law. It was just Emory really goes and gets to know this woman. And every single, it seemed like every single episode ended on a cliffhanger and the plot just kept on thickening. And every single time I could not believe what I was listening to. It sounds like a kind of simple premise. But that was called, that was called Beyond All Repair. That's really good, I think. Oh, there's a podcast called Outlaw Ocean right now, which is the most maybe dangerous thing I've ever listened to in my entire life. This guy is literally going. It's about true crimes that are happening on the ocean. So this means like, ooh, maritime law stuff.
- [32:08]
A
It's.
- [32:09]
B
But he's going to like slave ships and like, you know, pirate, like pirates.
- [32:14]
C
Like it's modern day pirates. Yeah.
- [32:17]
B
And he's on like the ship. Like it's. He has a crew that is going with him and they're, you know, they've been, they're. They put their lives in danger several times to make this show. So Outlaw Ocean is an example of also something that is just becoming more and more rare because of the in depth nature of these.
- [32:40]
C
Yeah. How do they pay for it?
- [32:41]
B
Good question. I mean, actually, I think it might be part of a bigger media outlet or something like that because that's what I'm like.
- [32:50]
C
That's tens of thousands of dollars per episode at least.
- [32:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah. People are always like, how, you know, how do Podcasters getting money, like find an anonymous rich investor. That's the only advice. Yeah, yeah. Everyone is like a bunch of patrons are good, but one big patron maybe. And something I just finished is called the Birth Keepers and it's about the three free birth society. This is. Oh yeah, absolutely wild. I mean the stuff that the, the tape they give all this footage and stuff like that and then, oh, and gosh, I'm going all out of order. I'm really sorry, but I thought of one more, one more draw my like Sentimental Garbage. Have you heard of it?
- [33:33]
C
No.
- [33:34]
B
It started out as book podcast, like the review. Like they're just talking about books. Caroline o' Donoghue is the host of Sentimental Garbage and it. I think when Covid started, she started reviewing Sex and the City and that kind of got her on the path of movies. And it is just the smartest. It is you talking to your best friend at smartest best friends about every movie you've ever loved. Every, you know, TV series, every. They did an episode on Disney World, which I loved. They. But so different kinds of media and stuff now. But that is my safe place for going to listen to people talk about things that I love. And I know that every single one I'm going, that's a no brainer. I listen to every single episode on Unsentimental Garbage.
- [34:21]
C
Oh, that's such a good wreck. It seems like it would be really up my alley.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah, I think so.
- [34:26]
C
All right, Lauren, we. We've gotten just such a bevy of recommendations from you. We're already almost at times. So before we let you go, you just did your whole year in review, your big roundup for your newsletter. Were there any major trends that you saw in either the industry or in what you were hearing in the output of the industry that are helping you get a window into what's in store for us in 2026 in the audio landscape?
- [34:58]
B
You know, this isn't that new, but celebrities are just, you know, continuing to take over. I think this year was the pivot to video year, so everyone is feeling like they have to be on video. And the one unfortunate. I mean, I'm an audio person and I'm starting to notice that podcasters are doing things visually and forgetting that have listeners there. I know that's not exactly what you're asking for, but I'm not a fan of that. One fun thing I'm kind of noticing is interesting kinds of interviews that aren't just people getting on a mic, like maybe interviewing each other in interesting places. There's a podcast called Walking About. It's a max fun show, and this comedian goes on walks with people in LA and New York. So the. The. The interview is in a place and it's going places. One of the biggest podcasts, I think it's only about a year old. It's called Strangers on a Bench. And this guy goes up to Strangers on a Bench and has conversations with them, and I can't explain what on earth he's doing. It's gorgeous. Some of these, you know, people get really, really honest about it. So I think that's something. I'm starting to notice that, you know, there's Subway Takes as a podcast now, so I think people are getting a little more creative about how to have interviews.
- [36:19]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Liz Plank does it in her bed.
- [36:22]
B
Oh, I didn't even know this.
- [36:23]
C
Yeah, it's a lot of interviews in bed.
- [36:26]
B
Love it.
- [36:27]
C
It's fun. All right, Lauren, this was just fantastic. And getting all of these recommendations from you tell folks where they can find you or how they can subscribe to your writing.
- [36:40]
B
I would, you know, love for you to check out Podcast the newsletter. If you're looking for new podcasts, it's on substack. But if you go to podcast the newsletter. It's all there. And I'm not really on social media anymore.
- [36:54]
C
You don't need to be.
- [36:55]
B
Yeah, no, my newsletter is where you can find me.
- [36:59]
C
Fantastic.
- [37:00]
B
And then I'm at Tinkmedia Co if you want to learn more about all this other stuff that I do. Everything. That's my hub. That's where everything I do lives.
- [37:07]
A
Amazing. This was so fun. Thank you, Lauren.
- [37:10]
B
Thank you.
- [37:14]
A
Well, that was fun to hear about some podcasts and get to talk to Lauren. And I love the little, like, niche she's carved out for herself.
- [37:22]
C
And a lot of those recommendations came really fast and furious. So be sure to check out our website forever35podcast.com for our show notes, where you can see every recommendation that she mentioned and start listening for yourself if you aren't already.
- [37:40]
A
All right, let's go into the intention zone. Elise, how are your finances?
- [37:47]
C
Okay. I was doing better because Claude told me that.
- [37:53]
A
Love, Claude. Yep.
- [37:54]
C
I was spending way too much money on beverages, fun drinks, because my daughter really likes fun drinks.
- [38:02]
A
What is a fun drink?
- [38:04]
C
Like a strawberry acai refresher.
- [38:07]
A
Got it.
- [38:08]
C
Or a milkshake. My daughter's like, can we get a fun drink? Can we get a fun beverage after school? A lot. And so then I've put a moratorium on fun drinks. Like, you're gonna drink water out of your water bottle.
- [38:20]
A
Okay. A fun drink moratorium.
- [38:23]
C
So I tried that and, Or I'm trying that. We can still do one fun drink a week or something. Like, I took her to get a Slurpee on Tuesday. Slurpee, though far more affordable than a strawberry acai refresher. And so anyway, I tried. I, I at least had a look at the picture in order to cut back on spending. But I also went to New York for a week, which just steals your money. Like, New York makes me love it and takes all my money. That's like my one line about New York again and again. Like, it always makes me feel so alive. And I come home, like, what happened?
- [39:01]
A
Yeah, totally, totally.
- [39:04]
C
It's just a going out culture. Like, you are always out and doing stuff that's out and eating out. And like, I just, and then the daughters wanted to have experiences. Like, museums aren't free. You know, it's like 30 bucks or something like that for tickets. Everything we do, we have to multiply by five. Broadway show, even a cheap, cheap ticket. Yeah, it's like 120. Multiply by five. Like you just a lot of money.
- [39:29]
A
It's a lot of money.
- [39:31]
C
I don't know. I guess I, I, I've made some baby steps. What about you? Remind me your intention.
- [39:37]
A
My intention was like my 2026 plan.
- [39:42]
C
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We didn't even talk about this at the top of the show or. And any recent ones. What is going on with that?
- [39:48]
A
I feel like things have been set in motion. I, I don't, I feel like I can't say any, I can't really say anything else, unfortunately. But I'm feeling like, I'm feeling like, cautiously optimistic that there will be some positive changes in 2026.
- [40:05]
C
Okay, good. Exciting. All right, well, tell us when you can.
- [40:09]
A
I will. And then this week I just want to, like, have fun in the desert and not stress too much about whether we win or lose or, you know, whatever. What about you?
- [40:19]
C
I have to drink water. I don't know if I've done this intention recently, but I've like, I've really got to drink water. I'm in winter. I'm so dry, like, and leathery. I just feel constantly like I'm gonna like a, I'm gonna be, I'm like a dehydrated mushroom, like from three body problem when the humans became like dehydrated mushrooms. So, yeah, drinking water, it sounds like it's easy, but for me, it's a little tough. Because of all the fun drinks. Because of all the fun drinks.
- [40:50]
A
Too many fun drinks.
- [40:51]
C
One intention could solve the other. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:55]
A
Maybe you need one of those water bottles that, like, gives you the, like, it has markings for the time of day.
- [41:03]
C
Yes. You know, I, I do, like, keep going. I need a lot of encouragement to drink water.
- [41:10]
A
You need, you need a water bottle. That's encouraging you.
- [41:14]
B
Yes.
- [41:16]
A
Well, Elise, great to see you listeners. Thanks so much. Forever 5 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks, everyone. Take care.
- [41:31]
C
We'll talk to you on Wednesday.
- [41:33]
A
Bye.