Episode 390: Red Lipstick Is a Neutral with Rachel Goodwin

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 390: "Red Lipstick Is a Neutral" with Rachel Goodwin

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Rachel Goodwin, Celebrity Makeup Artist
Date: February 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes back Rachel Goodwin, beloved celebrity makeup artist (clients include Emma Stone, Priyanka Chopra, Julia Roberts), for a deep-dive listener Q&A on all things makeup. Rachel brings her signature warmth and wisdom, discussing red lipstick as a neutral, the psychology behind makeup choices, practical product recommendations, and the evolving landscape of beauty trends. The conversation is lively, personal, and full of actionable tips for listeners at any skill level.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rachel’s Current Focus & Career Update

[14:43]

• Rachel shares that she’s stepping back from an intense awards season to focus on a book deadline and a new brand project.

• She describes this transitional career period as being "in the messy middle" but trusts the creative process, just as she did at the start of her career.

  • Rachel: "I'm actually excited. I'm in the messy middle of figuring out what my next phase looks like, but I'm also just trusting...what I trusted in the beginning of my career..." (18:54)

• She recently did makeup for Mel Robbins at the Golden Globes—the first awards season to include a podcast category. Rachel found joy in guiding someone less familiar with red carpet glamour.

  • Rachel: "It's really fun for me as an artist to really help someone go from a place where...they're experiencing these things for the first time." (17:08)

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2. Listener Q&A Highlights

a. Tinted Moisturizer with Matte Finish

[20:07]

• Rachel recommends Lisa Eldridge’s tinted moisturizer for light coverage with hydration but not shine.
• She cautions: truly matte tinted moisturizers are rare because "matte" and "moisturizer" are almost mutually exclusive.
  • Rachel: "It's a tall order to do in a matte consistency because it kind of is counterintuitive with what it's actually trying to do." (21:37)
• She also mentions Eighth Day's primer/sunscreen as a multi-benefit alternative.

b. Blush for Freckled Cheeks

[22:26]

• Rachel loves freckles and prefers blushes with transparency for a natural effect.
  • Tower 28 and Armani (high-end) are her top picks; both have a "watercolor" effect that doesn’t obscure freckles.
  • For low-fuss daily wear, she suggests Merit blushes.
  • Rachel: "I really do feel like transparency is key when it comes to giving yourself like a flush. But you don't want to necessarily look like you have something covering." (22:36)

c. BB Cream vs. CC Cream vs. Foundation

[24:52]

• BB/CC creams are best for personal use, not pro red carpet work, because they’re multi-taskers and higher risk for reactions.
  • Rachel: "I don't usually use dual purpose products on my clients for red carpet moments...I'm not really there to do treatment or add any kind of things like that."
• Foundation is standard for professional work due to reliability under lighting and photography.
• Elise provides context: BB (originally German) was post-surgical; CC is just the next, slightly different iteration.
• If you love your freckles, BB/CC is a better option for daily life as they let more skin show through.
  • Rachel: "What I'm doing, like if I, you know, when I'm doing your makeup, Elise, it's like I'm really trying to find things that you're going to like be able to utilize and go to quickly..." (28:10)

d. Inclusive Red Lipstick at the Drugstore

[32:27]

• Red lipstick is a "neutral" for Rachel—a classic, empowering, and versatile staple.
  • Rachel: "For me, red lipstick is neutral. I know that sounds bizarre, but I really do find it...the red lip is almost like the LBD of makeup in my opinion." (32:37)
• Recommendations:
  • Revlon (classic reds), L’Oreal (great French reds, both orangey and blue-based), Elf, and Maybelline (notably their stay-on formulas).
  • Suggests starting with a sheer or warm red for less intensity; emphasizes matte formulas for longevity.
    • Rachel: "Try to stick with matte tones with red, because they do tend to travel and they can get really messy." (34:38)

e. Softer Cat Eye for Aging/Crinkling Eyes

[36:32]

• Rachel hacks her look by using a brow pen as eyeliner for a softer, more translucent cat eye effect.
  • Rachel: "...using my liquid brow pen as an eyeliner because I like the transparency of it...it's soft and transparent and sort of a little bit less of a hard line." (37:03)

f. Best Eyelid Primer for Hooded Eyes

[38:24]

• Thrive’s waterproof eyelid primer ranks as Rachel’s favorite for hooded or folded lids, preventing creasing and eyeshadow transfer.

g. Perfecting the Cat Eye

[39:17]

• Rachel’s technique: create a dot for the wing endpoint, then use small increments to connect, avoiding one long swoop.
  • Rachel: "My favorite way to do it is to make a small dot on the outside of the eye where I'm trying to get to. And then I go in small, little increments. I don't ever try to do a sweep." (39:30)
• Face symmetry varies—don’t aim for perfection; bring intuition (and fun) into the process.

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3. Trends in Beauty for 2026

[42:09]

• Two dominant trends:
  • Risk Takers: Bold, experimental, expressive.
  • Clean Girls: Minimal, “no-makeup” makeup, ultra-groomed.
• Social media scrutiny has made risks scarier; Rachel wishes for a safer 'middle zone' to enable more play, individuality, and whimsy.
  • Rachel: "What we need to see is people cultivate their own sense of who they are—beauty-wise, fashion-wise anyway—and then feel free to play around." (44:39)
• Rachel is inspired by people like Pamela Anderson embracing a “zero makeup” approach, seeing honesty as a new frontier.
  • Rachel: "There’s an honesty there. And I think that's what I miss. There just feels like there's a serious—suddenly there's really—it’s gotten very serious..." (48:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Goodwin on Red Lip: "Red lipstick is neutral...every single person can wear red lipstick. It's really more of a psychological thing as to whether or not you...give yourself permission to wear it." (32:37)
• Rachel on the Cat Eye: "It's really about being relaxed in your approach and not trying to do a long effect...my favorite way…is to make a small dot on the outside of the eye...then I go in small, little increments." (39:30)
• Rachel on Beauty Trends: "I would like to see girls being more individualistic with their approach. Because I think...we have more variety and more talent available than ever before, more ability to express these pieces. And yet people are falling into templates." (43:35)
• Rachel on Makeup Philosophy: "I just love...the ability to use [makeup] as a tool of expression...and a way of sort of trying on different personas and identities and finding out which one fits." (47:20)

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Product Recommendations

• Tinted Moisturizer: Lisa Eldridge Tinted Moisturizer, Eighth Day Primer/Sunscreen
• Blush for Freckles: Tower 28, Armani (liquid), Merit
• Drugstore Red Lipstick: Revlon, L’Oreal, Elf, Maybelline (Stay-on)
• Softer Cat Eye: Use brow pen as liner
• Eyelid Primer (Hooded Eyes): Thrive Waterproof Eyelid Primer
• General Beauty: Oribe Gold Lust Oil, Lumify eyedrops

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [09:15] – Rachel Goodwin joins episode
• [14:43] – Rachel’s 2026 career update & book announcement
• [20:07] – Listener Q&A begins (Tinted moisturizer & matte coverage)
• [22:26] – Best blush for freckles
• [24:52] – BB Cream vs. CC Cream vs. Foundation
• [32:27] – Red lipstick recommendations & philosophy
• [36:32] – Liquid liner/cat eye alternatives for aging eyes
• [38:24] – Best eyelid primer for hooded lids
• [39:17] – Cat eye tips and technique
• [42:09] – 2026 beauty trends; risk-taking vs. “clean” aesthetic
• [47:20] – Makeup as self-expression, honesty in beauty

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Episode Tone & Style

The discussion is friendly, personal, and encouraging, sprinkled with humor, self-awareness, and empathy for the challenges of both daily and red carpet beauty. Rachel’s expertise is matched with warmth—every answer is designed to be accessible, actionable, and supportive.

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Final Thoughts

Rachel’s outlook on beauty is fundamentally about empowerment, self-expression, and play. This episode is both a resource and an inspiration: practical enough for anyone looking for product recommendations or makeup techniques, and thought-provoking for listeners reflecting on how beauty fits into their evolving identities.

For full product links, check forever35podcast.com or their Instagram @forever35podcast.

Transcript

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

I get it.

[Producer or Guest Contributor]

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[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

Welcome to the show. Today we have one of our favorite recurring guests, Rachel Goodwin, makeup artist of the stars. Back on the show to answer your makeup questions and to talk just generally about makeup. And it's always such a delight to get to talk to Rachel. I really love our conversations with her.

[Elise Hu]

She's going to have a big year too, which she will get into and we will let her get into herself. But it means that she she hasn't been as busy this award season and she's sort of just observing from afar some of the bigger trends, which is kind of exciting. But she will also answer your questions about cat eye and there's Lots. There's. She apparently always gets questions about cat eye and how to perfect the cat eye and products and things. But before we get to Rach, like Dora, I just want to check in with you and see, are there certain things that you're loving that you have worked into your makeup routine or your skincare routine?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. And I should say before I recommend these, that these were things that were sent to me, so these were gifted to me. I just want to, like, be clear about that.

[Elise Hu]

Full disclosure.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yep, full disclosure. But the outset, which is Scarlett Johansson's skincare beauty company, I actually really like their products. They sent me their Lip Oasis lip. It's. It's a. It's a gloss, but it's also moisturizing. It's also, like, a balm. And it comes in four different shades that are just really pretty and subtle, but give you, like, just enough pop of color. I really like the Sun Kiss shade and then also the mirage shade, and then it also comes in clear if you just want, like, you know, your own lip color. So I've been using those. I really like them. And then another item that was sent to me that I'm also really liking and I'm kind of picky about this particular product is the Tower 28 Make Waves Mascara.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, mascara. Because, you know, I ride hard for the Tower 28 Cream Blush. I think that. And then the Merit Flush balm that everybody loves are both fantastic. Just to put a little color on your cheeks.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

You're talking about Tower 28 mascara. Interesting.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. So I think their mascara is, like, relatively new. I mean, they're a relatively new company anyway, like, within the last few years. But I think mascara mascara was not one of the products that, like, they launched with. And I think it's a great. I actually think it's a really great mascara. And it doesn't clump, it lengthens. I would say it also gives you volume. It comes in black, brown, and then you can also get a mini. It comes in a mini black, and it's $20, which is, like, in between drugstore and, like, department store.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

How about you? Are you using any new makeup items?

[Elise Hu]

I haven't worked anything new in, but I talked a little bit about this, just as an aside in a recent episode that this is winter. It's a very drying period, and not just for our skin, also for our eyes. And we had a guest that we were interviewing earlier who said she always carries eye drops with her, and so the eyedrops that I really love for redness. Is called Lumify. Like, people who do early morning television swear by this. And so I think we created a link on our shop my for Lumify, if you're not already hip to the Lumify cult or you're not already a member of the Lumify cult, I really recommend it for this time of year. And then also the other thing that I do in the winter that's different, I also use a body oil. And I really like the Oribe all over oil for that in Gold Lust. And so I picked that up from my Korean Pilates teacher. In Korea, I used to take private Pilates because it was in my building. And she just was luminous and had this amazing skin. And I was always like, what's the deal, man? Especially in the winter, like, I'm crackling off. I look leathery. And she was like, I know this is weird, because I know, like, Americans get strange about putting oil on their face, but because they think it's going to, like, be greasy or something. But face oils and body oils. And so she introduced me to a bunch of oils, and now I really like to make sure when I step out of the shower, in addition to lotion, or instead of lotion, I'll use oils. So that's kind of like my winter thing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and Rachel's gonna get into a bunch of things that she's super into as well. Um, like, I think some of y' all asked about the difference between, like, BB cream and CC cream. So we'll get into all of that, which will be fun.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, it's a. It's a great conversation. All right, well, I know Rachel needs no introduction, but I will just read her bio in case she is new to any of our listeners. Rachel Goodwin is the makeup artist behind some of the most iconic celebrity looks of our. Her clients include Emma Stone, Priyanka Chopra, Awkwafina, Julia Roberts, Brie Larson, Michelle Dockery. I mean, the list just goes on and on. Her work has been on the covers of Vogue, Vanity Fair, W Glamour, gql, Harper's Bazaar. She is an icon herself, in my humble opinion. And she comes on roughly quarterly to our show to answer your questions about makeup, so. So we're so excited to have her back on the show. Before we get to Rachel, just a reminder that Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we and Rachel mention. You can also follow us on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Our patreon [e-mail] Forever35 we do little extra interviews with our guests that we call the Forever 35 questionnaire that are super fun. We do a weekly casual chat now on video. So if you have been missing the site of our faces, you can check that out on our Patreon. We do a monthly pop culture recommendations episode plus a chat in our Patreon app. And it's just. Oh, we do ad free episodes. I mean there's just a lot going on that'[e-mail] forever35. We also put all of our favorite products. So we'll put, you know, the things I mentioned today plus anything Rachel mentions in our shop. My. So you can just directly shop those at shopmy ushers. Forever 35. Our voicemail number and text number is 781-591-0390 and you can email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here is Rachel. Well, Rachel Goodwin, welcome back to Forever 35. It's so nice to see you.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Hi, ladies. Happy 2026.

[Elise Hu]

Happy 2026. You have been very busy. It's always good to have you back on as are recurring makeup expert.

[Rachel Goodwin]

It is a joy and a pleasure. I love it.

[Dori Shafrier]

Elise, before you jumped on, Rachel and I were talking about the phenomenon of your tween and teenage children stealing your gadgets and chargers and headphones.

[Elise Hu]

Well, now we all like aggressively write on the plug bases and the cords. What our initials. So that. Because now they feel like I'm stealing theirs, but I'm probably just taking back my own things. But then I got caught. Oh yeah, I got caught with some charger cable that had the initial eye on it. And so Isabel, my daughter, was like, do you not see the initial eye that is mine? I'm like, no, it started out as mine.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Oh, my God. This is the exact. This is what I was saying. We have the exact same scenario at our house and it is like it has become so contentious and I honestly am like, I'm over you all. Like, I. And so today when I went to go find my, these, these headphones which I keep in a certain drawer because they're the only ones that I can use for our podcasting because they are in, you know, they go in my computer, but they have a very specific thing and I keep them in one drawer and I know they're there, but it's been a while since our last one, right? So I'm like, oh, I felt cocky. Like, they're there, I don't have to worry about it. And I go in, they're gone. So I'm like rummaging through their room so mad. I'm like, what is happening? Like the core.

[Elise Hu]

I relate to that so hard. Yes.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah. So here, here we are. Thank God. I found them in the one in their messy cord drawer, which is just a whole other story. But yeah, they're, they were there. And of course no one ever knows where anything is. No one's ever touched anything. No one's ever heard about it. It's like it's like the first time they've ever seen any. It's just. Yeah, that's probably our biggest like, like, you know, like familial contention point right now is like cords and, and chargers, which is sad actually.

[Dori Shafrier]

So funny.

[Elise Hu]

Not, not cool.

[Dori Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Elise Hu]

Foreign. Since we've last chatted, you have been really busy. You're back doing a bunch of awards season makeup. So do you want to catch us up on you real quick before we get into listener questions?

[Rachel Goodwin]

I'm actually taking kind of a little bit of a backseat this season for the first time in like a long time, since the pandemic, obviously. But before that, like, I think I have been part of every award season since I started my career like back in 20 years ago or whatever. But I'm in. I have a deadline. I have a book deadline. And so I'm kind of acting as if I'm in law school right now studying for the bar because I kind of don't have the ability to be in 10 places at once and do what I need to do to finish my book. So I've actually, I'm sort of going to be participating but in a lesser way this year than I've ever been doing before. But I still have been watching, seeing everything my peers are doing and I'm definitely doing, stepping in and doing things that work for me so that are, you know, low lift. So I have lots of opinions and lots of things to say, but they're not, oh, they're not all about my, particularly my personal experience. This Golden Globes I did do Mel Robbins, who is one of my favorite favorite humans on the podcast. So she was nominated for a Golden Globe for her podcast, which is the first time podcasts have been a part of the Golden Globes.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I know, because NPR got a nomination too, which was really cool that there was like this category.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah. So that's been really fun working with Mel. I've been working with her quite a bit and just kind of getting her sort of acclimated to the world of being face forward in this world. It's been really, really fun, kind of getting her, you know, sorted and getting her Feeling great about how to do her own makeup, how to do things for herself for her podcast and for. And for like big nights like the Globes and for. There was a whole bunch of Spotify things leading up and it was such a fun thing to be a part of because Mel is having such a moment. She's done so much for so many people in the last few years. Just helping them get through some tumultu times. It's been nice.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[Dori Shafrier]

It's so funny because we were just talking with the author, Maureen Goo, who is also someone who had never really done like the awards show circuit before, but her husband directed K Pop Demon Hunters. So she's been, you know, going to all of these like big award shows and we were just talking to her. We were talking mostly about clothes, not so much like hair and makeup stuff. But yeah, she was just talking about how like, you know, she hired a stylist and like just that shift is really interesting like when you suddenly have to start thinking about presenting yourself in a totally different way.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Well, it's nerve wracking and it's really fun for me as an artist to really help someone go from a place where, you know, I'm used to being in environments where people are. This is just their normal, you know, like this is what they do. Like everyone's almost like a well oiled machine. It's like they know how to go to these events. There's, there's, it's more of a. Oh God, how would I put this? What I normally am working inside is sort of a well oiled machine of, of glamour. You know, we have certain roles that we play. We bring our A game obviously every time and everyone's collaborative and blah, blah, blah. But there's a different energy when you work with someone who is experiencing these things for the first time. It's like imagine you got ready for your wedding, you know, about, I don't know, 200 times. You might not every weekend, right? Yeah. You might not think that it's that fun anymore. It might become something else for you. Whereas when someone is doing that for the first time and it's their wedding, you're really in it with them and you're really feeling all the feelings for them and you're really holding space for them in a way that's very different. And that was what I had with Mel for the Golden Goats, because the build up she had like I think four or five events. We kind of got to really hone like sort of what worked for her. What didn't? And then by the time the Golden Globes came, I mean, she just got to feel amazing. And it was just such a joy. It was so freeing to see. It was nice for my job to really be, like. To use my talent to, like, elevate another woman who's just, like, showing up for the first time in that way, but, like, in such a big way. That's when I get really excited about what I do, and I feel like what I do has real merit and has. Has value because it just, like, it does change the narrative for another person.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, lovely. I'm sure your longtime clients probably miss you being on the circuit as much, though. I mean, I.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Listen, we're gonna know. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's been nice, and I. And everyone's been so understanding. I think there's a couple. You know, I don't. I think I told you. I'm, like, working on a brand right now, and I'm doing my book, and it's kind of like it's been nerve wracking because I'm like, oh, I don't know how to be this person. This is like a whole new person I have to be right now. But I'm actually excited. It's. I'm in the messy middle of, like, figuring out what my next. Next phase looks like, but I'm also just trusting. What I trusted in the beginning of my career with this career was that I really felt pulled and drawn to this creative process that I wanted to be a part of, and I made that happen. And now I'm feeling drawn to these other things, so I'm trusting that they're guiding me where I need to be at this very moment. I have a lot of stuff I'm excited about sharing in the next year, and I cannot wait to get to talk about all of it. But all of it's kind of like in that messy middle part right now. So it's just.

[Elise Hu]

Well, you just text us and let us know when you're ready to talk about things, because we want you to share with the Forever 35 community that you've been so generous with.

[Rachel Goodwin]

As soon as you can share, you will know immediately. Believe me. I cannot wait because it's going to be a lot of fun. Okay, Fantastic.

[Elise Hu]

All right, well, are you ready for the latest batch of questions from our listeners?

[Producer or Guest Contributor]

Yes.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yes, I so am. Yeah, let's do it.

[Dori Shafrier]

All right, first question.

[Elise Hu]

What is a good tinted moisturizer that provides light matte coverage to just even out? I.

[Rachel Goodwin]

You Know, my favorite one is I love Lisa Eldridge. Her, her tinted moisturizer is so beautiful. I love it has sunscreen, it has a beautiful hydration, but it's not shiny. I would say that's my number one. There's one that just came out from a brand. It was the founder of, of, of Hourglass who just started a new line called Outside in. And it's really like this in a dropper kind of thing. It's this really sheer, beautiful kind of like. I don't know if it's matte so much. That's the only thing I would say. If you want more of a matte finish, that's a little bit tougher because most of the time tinted moisturizers tend to lean because they have the word moisturizer and then they tend to be more hydrating and they often don't have a matte finish because they're, they're really there to function as a two part situation. They're there to hydrate the skin, plump the skin, give it protection, but also give you a little bit of coverage. That's a tall order to do in a matte consistency because it kind of is counterintuitive with what it's actually trying to do because it's trying to serve two purposes. I think that I don't really know of any matte ones particularly that I would, that I would, that I would definitely think about. There's a couple of things I would say that like I love. There's something that's a, it's more of a luxury product. But Eighth Day, which is a skincare, you know, by a doctor, by a dermatologist brand, they have like a, it's a primer slash sunscreen and it has a little bit of almost like a diffuser and it gives the skin sort of a really lovely even tone. But it doesn't necessarily give you a lot of ton of coverage, but it's protecting your skin, it's hydrating your skin, it's acting on like three levels and then it gives you like a soft, even tone. And if you really want to use concealer on top because there's something glaring, you can do that. But the Eighth Day primer slash sunscreen is, I think it's a pretty fabulous product. I use it all the time and I usually don't use anything else unless I'm actually going to be on camera or I'm actually going somewhere where I need to, you know, bring it up a notch.

[Dori Shafrier]

Another question someone has written, I have and love tons of freckles. What blush is best for super freckled cheeks?

[Rachel Goodwin]

Ooh, I love freckles. I often put freckles on people who don't have freckles. And I'm, I'm a fan of freckles. I have them myself. And so I really do feel like transparency is key when it comes to giving yourself like a flush. But you don't want to necessarily look like you have something covering. I hate that look when I see freckles and then I see, you know, I don't know, like a layer of something and you kind of almost see, like they almost look dulled underneath. It's like, oh, that drives me crazy. I want to see the freckles. I want to bring them forward. Some of my favorite ones, Tower 28. I think those blushes are one of my, like, they're in my top five. Yeah. Love that brand. And I think it's so easy to have like these little ones that are just like you. You dab your fingers, them on lips you can use them on. I use them all over. All over. So theirs are so fabulous. I mean, I think I'm trying to think of the. I mean, again, I don't know her complexion exactly, so I can't say specific color, but I would say like their range goes the gap, runs. It runs the gamut. So you can find something there like pink if you want more bronzy. They have, they've got such great textures. And then when you. You put them on, there is a just. It's a beautiful, see through transparent quality that I love Armani. If you want to go more high end, the Armani. And they're, they're in little tubes and they're very beautiful. They're almost like a water based transparent. Like a watercolor, I think. Think watercolor. That's how I think of when I think of freckles. I think of like anything that kind of goes over like a wash but doesn't have a high pigment load so that you're not hiding, you're not covering. You really are just giving like, almost like a stain effect but with slightly more hydration. Yeah, that would. Those would probably be my top two that come to mind. But blushes are. Oh, merit. If you want to go really easy and low lo fi, like the merit. I don't use them as much for red carpet because they don't have the staying power of some of the other ones that are a bit more pigmented. But for my daily life in my purse, I often grab for those little Merit. Sort of like they look like little half circles and you can just do a quick little. They're impossible to mess up. They have a really lovely luminosity. They're not at all dense in pigment, so you can really just put them right over your freckles and they look fabulous.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, when do I use CC cream versus BB cream versus foundation?

[Rachel Goodwin]

Oh, my Lord. Okay. I read your book, Elise. So I remember this whole BBCC cream thing. I don't, I don't even really 100% know the answer to this.

[Elise Hu]

CC cream is like the graduated next level BB cream, basically, like they just keep adding more letters. Letters because it went from BB to cc. There's also dd. Like it's like bra sizes or something, but they just like improve the formulation with each one. But we should say there is a difference between BB and CC creams and foundation. Right. And so how do you decide, Rachel, when to use a lighter BB cream versus foundation on your clients?

[Rachel Goodwin]

Okay, so I guess BB and CC cream in general are more personal. I would, I would say the first thing that comes to mind is that BB and CC cream are typically something I would use in my personal life and not on my clients. And the reason is a couple of things. There's a few things, honestly. The, the, I don't usually use dual purpose products on my clients for red carpet moments because I'm very calculating and sort of very considered and how things are going to last and everything, you know, and also I'm not really there to do treatment or add any kind of things like that. Unless I'm say, in the sun with someone where I'm like, hi, it has to be about, you know, we're shooting an editorial on the beach and I'm like, sunscreen is obviously a big deal. I usually do professional grade products for like big days, like a red carpet day or editorial day. But on myself, I love products that have multi purpose. I love products that have multiple benefits. I love things that like, the more things that are inside a product, the more opportunities there are for reaction. And that's just a fact. It's not that it's bad or good. It's just on days where I'm like, I don't know if a client is allergic to something, I usually go for the least, the lowest factor of any reaction. So I'll go with like things with no fragrance, no multiple, you know, any active ingredients. Bb, CC cream, baby GD and FF or whatever probably have more active ingredients. I'm assuming each round. So active ingredients tend to be Nerve wracking for me as a makeup artist, as a woman. I'm interested in them because I want to use them in my daily life maybe to kind of add or boost my, my, the effects of my skin care foundation is what I use on my job, on everyone. Because I'm just more of a, you know, low risk. I think it's more low risk and it's also also like probably more professional grade. So I know how it's going to behave under lighting worse. You know, I don't have that necessarily same confidence in the BB cream or the CC cream because it tends to slide and slip and move more.

[Elise Hu]

Being a cover up is just one of its properties. Right. BB cream was invented at first. It didn't even come out of Korea. It came out of Germany as a post surgical cream. So you know, after somebody got a skin procedure, they put BB cream on as a cover up. Slash sun, sun protectant, a sunscreen, slash moisturizer, slash healing balm. You know. So it was lots of different things. Yeah. At once and, but yeah.

[Rachel Goodwin]

And I think that's great for that and for daily life and for other things when we're not, you know, necessarily on camera. But like for my clients I'm usually not leaning that way. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Though I do recall and this kind of goes back to the freckles thing. I remember you used when Rachel did makeup on me, just everyday makeup. She used a Dr. Jart BB or CC cream on me in order to make sure my freckles still were prominent or weren't covered up. Right. So you could use it if you are freckled and have tons of freckles as our listener wrote and don't want to cover them up too much.

[Rachel Goodwin]

I don't like to see skin that looks completely altered or covered. And especially with like the way the world is now. I mean the way that we look at photographs so closely, the way that we look at HD video so closely under horrible lighting that you can't control and all this stuff. It's like I just tend to use products that I know are going to look. Usually I go for really highly pigmented products that I use a very slight, a bit of for red carpet. But what I'm doing, like if I, you know, when I'm doing your makeup at least it's like I'm really trying to find things that you're going to like be able to utilize and go to quickly that is going to actually be a benefit to you on your daily, in your daily life. And most people don't find themselves. I mean, unless you're, I guess you could be an influencer or whatever, but then you have filters for that. But like our, our, the thing that's different about what makeup artists do and like what, what a, what a, an influencer gets to do is like we don't get the security of knowing the lighting. We don't get the security of knowing how something is going to look under a particular in a particular photograph because we have no control once our client walks out the door.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

All right. I've always wanted to wear red lipstick, but feel like I can never find the perfect shade at the drugstore. Any good inclusive drugstore brand. Rex.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Ooh, gosh. I mean for me, red lipstick is neutral. I know that sounds bizarre, but I really do find it to be like, it's like a classic. Like at this point, like the red lip is almost like the LBD of makeup in my opinion. It's like you gotta, you know, every single person can wear red lipstick. It's, it's really more of a psychological thing as to whether or not you feel like you can wear it or give yourself permission to wear it because it does require a level of, I guess I don't want to say vulnerability because it almost makes you feel tough, but it's, you know, it's, it leads more toward armor than it does toward vulnerability. But I think that ultimately it, it, Red is an eye catching color and it's an attention getting color. So when you have it on you, you tend to attract looks and it can come from anywhere. It can come from, you know, not necessarily male attention, come from other women. It could come from women. Our eye, our eyes are trained to pick up red because it has all kinds of symbolism behind, can mean an alarm, it can mean passion, it's an igniting color. And so if you're not sort of ready for the attention that that brings, then it can feel almost like a bit intimidating to wear it. There's a red for everyone. And as far as drugstores go, Revlon always needs some great reds. And if you can get it it at Target or whatever, Revlon's reds are fabulous. L' Oreal makes incredible reds. They're a French brand. They have like the, you know, if you like more orangey reds are, are definitely something that is a bit more poppy and retro. If you go more cool blue red, it goes a little bit deeper, but it can feel a little more serious. It's really the, the orangey reds feel a little less serious if you're kind of tiptoeing in. They're a little more fun and. And a little more. They're bold, but they're definitely not. So, like, they don't have the.

[Elise Hu]

The.

[Rachel Goodwin]

The. The sort of. I don't know. There's this elevated, like, kind of, like, don't untouchability about a blue red versus a warm red. So you can play around with the idea that, like, maybe try to get, like, a warm one and a cool one and see which one suits you. But. And try to stick with matte tones with red, because they do tend to travel and they can get really messy. If you have, like, a glossy red can be. Or if you are scared to go into a full matte and you just want to experiment with what it feels like, I would say get a sheer red and try that. Because sheer red of a commitment, and it gives you the feeling of the red, but, you know, it kind of gives you that transparency that feels a lot less intimidating to look at. And so I think there's a few ways, but I think drugstore. I was just in Target recently and just, like, really having fun in there, like, looking at all the brands, because it had been a while since I'd seen, you know, like, all the different lines and stuff in there, and I don't know, Elf had so many. There was just a ton of great makeup. Makeup and the drugstore. And, like, I was kind of blown away at, like, how many options there are. Like, you. It used to feel like there were only so when I was coming up, you know, when I was younger, it was like you had these expensive lines, and then, you know, you had these. These drugstore lines. I feel like the drugstore lines now are just as good and viable and wearable and even maybe more so. People love. I think it's the l' Oreal or the Maybelline. Sorry. Maybelline has these stay on ones that I have heard from a lot of women, like, are. No joke. Like, when they want something to stick. I can't remember the name of it now. It's like a. But they're stay on formula. Like, they're 24 hour. Whatever.

[Elise Hu]

Is it like a lip stain? Is it more like a lip stain than a liquid?

[Rachel Goodwin]

A lip liquid and it, like, then it dries, and it's like, supposedly from everyone I know, like, when they need something not to budge, that is their favorite one.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, good tip.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

All right, let's jump into the eye category.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Here we go.

[Elise Hu]

Long time liquid liner. Cat eye wearer here. It's my signature. I want to start wearing something softer. But still cat eye adjacent as I age and my eyes start to wrinkle and crinkle a little more than they used to. Help.

[Dori Shafrier]

Is this question from Taylor Swift. She still does the cat eye. Sorry. No, that didn't land.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Oh, no, I. Right, I got it.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you.

[Rachel Goodwin]

I'm gonna say something. I don't know if it's controversial or not, because I don't know if it's like you're supposed to do it or if I. Because I was. I was literally thinking about this this morning. So I have felt this way because I usually my two go tos are like a little bit of a messy eye or a cat. You know, a tiny little cat eye. Those are my, like, go to things if I'm going out or whatever. And lately I have been using my liquid brow pen as an eyeliner because I like the transparency of it. Okay. Because it's giving me that same little thing, but it's not a hard line. And it's very kind of. It gives it a completely different feel. It's like it's soft and transparent and sort of a little bit less of a hard line. And so that has been my recent trick. I don't know if it's legal. I don't know if it's like, oh, they're gonna say you're not supp to put that near your eye. I don't know. I'm assuming if it's for brows, it's safe for eyes, but, like, there's legality here, I guess. But that's been my recent thing I've been experimenting with. And I've got to say, I was like, I think this is something, I mean, someone needs to make a little one, like, that's a little less opaque. And maybe that would be a really cool way to. To go.

[Elise Hu]

Nice hack.

[Producer or Guest Contributor]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay. The best eyelid primer for your hooded eye babies.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Hooded eye vivies. Oh, Moira Rose. Okay. Immediately Thrive makes an incredible waterproof primer for your lids. That's fabulous. Especially if you get that little creasy thing. Okay. Where when you have folded lids and you. And you get that. Because I. It drives me crazy on clients, certain clients that have folded eyelids that I have had that kind of happening in the last. You know, just like, I'll be like, oh, I'll see it. And I'm like, it transfers on, and then there's nothing you can do that I forget the name of it. But it's by Thrive. It's a waterproof eyelid primer. You can use it, you know, with any. Whether it's eyeshadow, eyeliner. I find that has been very. That works incredibly.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah, that would probably be a top one.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, last eye question, and then we can broaden out before we let you go. I still can't perfect the cat eye. What's the secret?

[Rachel Goodwin]

Oh, gosh.

[Elise Hu]

Hire Rachel. I guess.

[Rachel Goodwin]

I know. I feel like I've gotten this question. Like, I have answered this question probably more than any other question in my career at this point. And I. I wish I could tell you the trick that would just, like, be the answer overall, and no one would ever need to ask again. But I just. I've tried every which away, and so far, you know, I still get the question. So it's clearly something's not working. But I would say that my. After answering in a million ways and after thinking about it a million times, I would say it's really about being relaxed in your approach and not trying to do a long effect. So my favorite way to do it is sort of to. To make a small dot on the outside of the eye where I'm trying to get to. And then I go in small, little increments. I don't ever try to do a sweep. I don't ever try to do a long stroke. I just minimally press the. The color into my lash line. And I. And I. And once I get to the edge, I kind of. So I'm going outward in these small increments. And then I cut. Come back in from the dot, and. And I fill in that space.

[Elise Hu]

You connect the dots my way.

[Rachel Goodwin]

I connect the dots. So it's like. And it's really about just, like, not. I think we just keep seeing this idea in our head that we're supposed to be these artists where we just, like, you know, like, And. And then we're like, wait, what just happened here? Like, you're like, you're over here, you're over there. It's not even. It's. And. And then you're with a Q tip. And then people lose faith. Right. I get it. Like, it's a really frustrating. And, you know, like, our eyebrows, they are sisters, not twins. And so faces are not always. They're not symmetrical. So it can trick you into thinking that you're going to get this perfect symmetrical line. And you may not. You may have one that needs to come a little higher and one that needs to be out a little straighter on one side. So there is a bit of nuance there. It's not like it's it's, it's not so scientific. I think it's intuitive. And I think we, we have a hard time as women trusting that intuition. We want the instruction, we want to be told how to do it. But a lot of being great at it is, is trusting your intuition and knowing your own face and dynamic of your face. Well, and, and then the last thing, we've talked about this a lot, a lot here is that you should hopefully enjoy it. Because when we feel pressured and we feel put upon and we feel like we need to get something perfect, we often don't enjoy the. Then we aren't. We never get good at it. And so I think we just, however you can bring a little bit of levity and joy to it would be really do you wonders when it comes to getting it right over time.

[Elise Hu]

Fantastic. Good tip. Good tip.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay, last question. Where do you see beauty trends going this year?

[Rachel Goodwin]

Gosh. I mean, you've been watching a lot

[Elise Hu]

now that you're not doing as much award season makeup, so you can probably see the way that trends are going, right? Or.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah, I've been watching a lot and I've also been watching just makeup, the contest show on Korean makeup artist. Contest show, which I'm fully obsessed with. I think that what's going to continue to, to be, you know, is that people are getting. Their skincare game is just so good. Right? Like, like, people are really getting these treatments that are just like, making the complexion, like, so clear and so lifted and so nice that the canvases that we're seeing are phenomenal, better than ever. I mean, makeup artistry is really coming into a place of nuance, in my opinion. I think that I miss a little bit of the, of the risk taking. I feel like there's two camps. There's risk takers and then there's clean girls and clean beauty. Yeah, those are the two camps that I'm seeing, and there's not a lot in between those things.

[Elise Hu]

Things. So it's either like no makeup makeup or chapel roan.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah, that's what it feels like right now to me. Just from an outsider, like, for the first time, stepping back a little bit. That's what I feel.

[Elise Hu]

What would you like to see? You know, aspirationally, where do you feel like they should go?

[Rachel Goodwin]

I'd like to see. I would like to see girls being more individualistic with their approach. Because I think that what I'm seeing is like, we're, we're, we have more variety and more, more talent available than ever before. More ability to express these pieces. And yet people are falling into templates. I think it's become really scary to take a risk of any kind because of the scrutiny, because of the way that people are, you know, because of how hard it is to be on social media and get so much bad feedback about anything there that possibly could be mistaken as, you know, a, a risk that didn't go well or a, you know, a trend that didn't land or something like that. Like, it just feels scary because. And it is. Listen, I, you know, I'd be, we would be fools to think that it actually isn't because something like that can be damaging to a career or it can be damaging to a sensitive person who can't handle that kind of feedback. So I think it's a weird time because of that. And I think the people who are going to be like those rule breakers and wild people are always going to be doing that. They're going to, they're, they just are like, you know, we're doing, I'm doing my thing and you can say what you think and I'm fine with it. Like pink or chapel roan or, you know, like those kind of, those kind of women who are like, nope, you're not going to tell me, like Billie Eilish, whoever would know? But then I feel like, you know, I would love the, the middle part to be a little safer for women because I do think like right now, trans trends, trends move too fast. You know, I, I think we've, we've lost the whole idea of seasons for trends. I think we've lost the idea of even, even in fashion, to be honest, because it moves too quick. Yeah, I think what we're, what we, we need to see is people cultivate their own sense of who they are. Beauty wise, fashion wise anyway, and then feel free to play around. I was watching an interview with Gwyneth not that long ago talking to Timothee Chalamet. They were having this conversation on vogue.com and it was really funny because it's like, I'm Gen X, so I have a very unique sensibility that doesn't always like that. You know, Gen Z and Gen X have very different ways of approaching things. But I really, he was asking her about some of her style choices in the 90s and she was talking about, they were showing pictures and she's like, yeah, I just bought that and went to the, to the event. Like, I wasn't thinking about, you know, any of that. Any. And I am so grateful that I had a life in which the privilege that I had to not worry about that stuff, because, yeah, we made choices, and the choices didn't always work, but we had the freedom to actually figure out what we liked and to experiment until we found our thing and without the severeness of the scrutiny that people have now. So their safety has made people a little less risk, or it's made them more risk averse in some ways, but also more calculated. And I kind of miss the, like, whimsy of just being able to try something for the sake of it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Because it's made fashion and makeup more boring ultimately. Right.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah. So it's like. Because it's like, for me, I'm like, it's just lipstick. It's just eyeshadow. But for some people, it's not. Right. Like, because it means that they'll have that following them till they're, you know, until, you know, for the next two decades. I don't know. Like, you know, for me, it's like, I. I just love. The reason why I fell into. Fell in love with makeup in the first place was this ability to use it as a tool of expression, self expression, and a way of sort of trying on different Personas and identities and finding out which one fits.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Rachel Goodwin]

And we all have multiple Personas inside of us. We all have multiple ways of, like, showing up in the world. Some days we feel really strong, and some days we don't. So we need makeup to make us feel strong. Or some days we need, you know, less makeup because we want. I mean, I've been listening to. To Pamela Anderson, like, talk about her journey with makeup. And, like, I remember growing up and watching her, and she had so much makeup on. I mean, to the point where she was a character of her, you know, in a sense, as a woman. It was. It was. It felt, you know, almost alienating to look at her because she was like, this character that felt very, like, male gaze.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Rachel Goodwin]

And now she's returning to herself, and she's doing it in a way that's totally on her terms with literally zero makeup.

[Elise Hu]

Literally.

[Rachel Goodwin]

And I find it really inspiring because it's really honest. Right? Like, there's an honesty there. And I think that's what I miss. I miss. There just feels like there's a serious. Suddenly there's really. It's gotten very serious. And I don't totally think it's honest either. And I'm like, those are things that are not for me. I like. I like levity, and I like. And I like truth.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Love it.

[Rachel Goodwin]

So those are my two. You know, that's my two cents. Do with it what you will.

[Elise Hu]

Love a good soapbox. Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Rachel Goodwin, it was such an awesome time to have you back on and especially because you're sort of on the cusp of so many big things later in 2026. So thank you. Thank you so much for being generous with your time during your sort of more heads down book writing period. And we'll be inviting you back on again in about three to four months or so.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Yeah, I can't wait. Yeah, keep those questions coming. I really love answering them. It's been so fun for me because it's like I forget sometimes that I know these things until I'm asked. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, ladies. Have a beautiful. Thank you, Rachel.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you.

[Rachel Goodwin]

Bye, everybody.

[Dori Shafrier]

All right, well, it is always a pleasure to have Rachel on the show.

[Elise Hu]

Can't wait for her big announcements. We'll have her. I know, like we mentioned. All right, door intention check in time. Last week, your intention was to really start decluttering. We talked a little bit about this on the casual chat. How is all of that going?

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, I did really start decluttering, and it's going well. I've gotten rid of a lot of stuff. And something that I talked about a little bit more in the casual chat was about, you know, becoming okay with the idea of just throwing some things out, which for me is like a big mental hurdle. You know, my instinct is to always sell or give it away and then getting to the point where you're like, you know what? This, no one wants this. No one wants this, like, old stained shirt. And just being okay with throwing stuff away was like a big.

[Elise Hu]

Unless the shirt is a concert shirt from the Velvet Underground, because I sold that on depop for like five bucks, and apparently it was worth 50. So any old brown shirts?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. No, these are not. I mean, and I gave away a huge bag of clothes. Clothes are probably actually not the best example because I do give those away a lot on Buy Nothing. I just give away huge bags of clothes, but it's like a broken toy. No one wants to buy that. No one even wants that for free. Like, so, you know, just becoming okay with certain things, saying this is okay to just toss. And then this week, I think this week I'm just gonna kind of try to keep the momentum going.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's good. You know, re up this intention.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, I'm gonna re up this intention. How about you? How's birthday week? Week?

[Elise Hu]

My intention last week, yeah. Was just to celebrate life in all its abundance. And I feel like I am very contented and just super, super blessed. And I was actually thinking that I was like really feeling a lot of gratitude, especially on my birthday this year because it overlapped with Chinese New Year, Lunar New Year. And yeah, like we, we have our health right now, so that's kind of such a blessing. Such a blessing. Yeah, totally. And then for the week ahead, we have been in this kind of rainy season or like rainy few weeks and yeah, I haven't really been outside very much and so I would like to just put out as my intention just to spend more time outdoors and get my vitamin D and eat lunch outside and go walks and go on walks outside and just like do more stuff outside, play with my kids outside. So sunshine is my intention.

[Dori Shafrier]

Amazing. I love that. All right everyone, thank you so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners acast. Thanks again everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Bye.

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