Episode 392: Probably Should Have Foam Rolled with Elaine Low

Summary

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Forever35 Podcast Episode 392: "Probably Should Have Foam Rolled"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Elaine Low
Release Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Doree and Elise welcome journalist Elaine Low (The Ankler) for a conversation weaving together self-care, tennis, and the rapidly changing entertainment industry—just ahead of the Oscars. The trio shares personal rituals, investigates the seismic shifts in Hollywood (from AI to broken career ladders), and celebrates the joy—plus neuroses—of adult recreational tennis. With characteristic humor and self-reflection, they explore how self-care practices extend beyond serums into cultural immersion, community, and play.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Self-Care: Beyond Serums

• Culture as Self-Care: This episode’s focus shifts from traditional beauty routines to the role of engaging in pop culture (books, movies, TV) as a form of personal care.
  “We are talking about a different kind of self care and that is the kind of self care that comes with just enjoying culture...” — Doree Shafrir (02:15)
• Elaine Low’s primary self-care: “Tennis kind of is my self-care...it is the only space outside of work and outside of family that I really carve out for myself." — Elaine Low (13:42)

2. Tennis Talk: Community & Competition

• Both Doree and Elaine serve as tennis captains in Los Angeles, finding camaraderie and much-needed “me time” on the court.
• Tennis during the pandemic emerges as a tale of communal support and revival of joy in movement.
  • "Rec tennis was something that came back into my life, like so many people, during the pandemic. ... It turned into, like, a whole other obsession that I could not have ever predicted." — Elaine Low (43:59)
• The universal struggle among adult players: neglecting recovery, despite knowing better.
  • “In theory I should be stretching, I should be foam rolling...I would love to get a massage. I don’t do any of those things. It’s probably going to come back to bite me one of these days.” — Elaine Low (14:20)
• Memorable tennis anecdotes—including double-headers, four-hour matches, and the infamous “law of tennis” that the hardest match is always when you plan to play two (16:19).

3. Oscars & Industry Shifts: Does It Still Matter?

• Elaine provides measured optimism on the Oscars’ cultural impact.
  • “I do think they still matter. They definitely matter to the industry within this bubble that I cover...It is the most prestigious award show.” — Elaine Low (19:24)
• The Oscars as a mechanism for curation, introducing viewers to less-known films, especially documentaries and shorts (20:50).
• Current Oscar favorites include “One Battle After Another” and “Sinners” with lively discussion on their merits and theater-worthiness.
  • "One Battle After Another, must be seen in a theater, I think." — Elise Hu (21:20)

4. Hollywood’s Evolution: AI, Strikes & Career Disruption

• AI on the Rise: What was viewed as abstract during the 2023 strikes is now fully embedded in industry workflows: “People are actually deploying AI on movie sets...It’s here. And that came up way faster than I would have predicted.” — Elaine Low (26:10)
• Broken Ladder: Traditional career progression in entertainment is dissolving, with Gen Z and younger Millennials finding far fewer entry and advancement opportunities.
  • "Like, there's no path up...How do you build the next generation of creative leaders in a time when AI is threatening to really encroach upon this space?" — Elaine Low (38:21)
  • "The advice I hear most to the point where I don't know if it seems trite is you have to be entrepreneurial, you have to go independent, you have to create your own stuff. And that's all very easy to say." — Elaine Low (41:30)
• Systemic vs. Individual Solutions: The group unpacks how responses to industry disruption and wellness alike tend to focus on individual hustle rather than collective or systemic solutions.
  • “It puts the solution on individuals for a systemic problem.” — Elise Hu (42:53)

5. Short/Vertical Video & Content Microtransactions

• The meteoric rise of “vertical video”/serialized mini-shows (e.g., Real Shorts, with titles like “My Stepdad is a Werewolf”), driven almost entirely by data—often for global, not domestic, audiences.
  • “These are like 75 60-second chapters...so there's a cliffhanger at the end of every 60 seconds.” — Elaine Low (30:42)
• Microtransactions in journalism and media: a business model potentially worth adopting from the vertical video world.

6. Life, Parenting, and Stretching Realities

• Humorous recognition that everyone—even self-care podcasters—struggles to do what's good for their bodies (foam rolling and stretching are universally avoided).
• Celebratory check-ins about playdates, clean houses, and the sweet chaos of parenting.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(with timestamps)

• On Tennis as Self-Care:
  "Tennis kind of is my self-care. That is legit. It is the only space outside of work and outside of family that I really carve out for myself."
  — Elaine Low (13:42)

• On Neglecting Recovery:
  "In theory I should be stretching, I should be foam rolling. I would love to get a massage. I don’t do any of those things. It’s probably gonna come back to bite me one of these days."
  — Elaine Low (14:20)

• On the Oscars’ Cultural Place:
  "I do think they still matter. They definitely matter to the industry within this bubble that I cover...It is the most prestigious award show."
  — Elaine Low (19:24)

• On AI’s Takeover:
  "People are actually deploying AI on movie sets... It’s here. And that came up way faster than I would have predicted."
  — Elaine Low (26:10)

• On Broken Career Paths:
  "There's no path up. And, and then also, like, how do you build the next generation of creative leaders in a time when AI is threatening to really, you know, encroach upon this space?"
  — Elaine Low (38:21)

• On Individual Solutions for Systemic Woes:
  "It puts the solution on individuals for a systemic problem."
  — Elise Hu (42:53)

• Pop Culture as Community:
  "I think there's something the Oscars...it was the same thing as watching the Super Bowl. You know, you gathered around and it was a big deal, and you talked about it the next day."
  — Elaine Low (20:20)

• The Law of Tennis:
  "Whenever you say you'll play more than one match in a day, you go the full two hours. Like, it's just like the law of tennis."
  — Doree Shafrir (16:19)

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Segment Timestamps for Reference

• Elaine Low’s Introduction/Self-Care Routine: 13:21–14:20
• Tennis & Recovery Habits: 14:20–16:46
• Oscars & Cultural Impact Discussion: 18:59–23:54
• AI, Strikes, and Hollywood’s Evolution: 24:59–28:08
• Vertical Video & New Media Models: 28:24–32:07
• Hollywood Career Paths/Generation Struggles: 36:25–42:58
• Tennis Community & Transformation: 43:00–45:33

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Tone

The episode is candid, warm, and self-aware—rooted in humor and honesty about both the self-care struggle and the realities of changing media and industry. The hosts create space for practical tips, existential industry commentary, and relatable anecdotes that blend cultural critique with daily life.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in how self-care, culture, and work intersect in modern adulthood. Elaine Low brings sharp industry intelligence and personal authenticity, making the episode rich in both relevant detail and inviting energy. Whether you’re chasing fulfillment on the court, seeking career meaning, or just wondering if you really need to foam roll—this one’s for you.

Transcript

[Elaine Low]

Not every sale happens at the register. Before AT&T business Wireless checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sale or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time. Sometimes AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Dory Shafrier]

I am really feeling that the busy season has started. I don't know about you Elise. Yes, but I think what's really important is that we need to remember to put a little bit of ourselves first too. And we can do that with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, it's Peloton's most elevated equipment with real time guidance and endless ways to move alone or with your favorite instructors. It's cross training reimagined with features designed to help you reach your goals effortlessly. And personally, I know that having a plan helps me stay motivated. Knowing that I have a certain class on a certain day, even at a certain time, helps me move forward with my fitness goals. Even if I don't really want to show up on that certain day or certain time.

[Elise Hu]

I get it. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums and today we

[Dory Shafrier]

have a fun one.

[Elise Hu]

We're not talking about serums today.

[Dory Shafrier]

We're not.

[Elise Hu]

We are talking about a different kind of self care and that is the kind of self care that comes with just enjoying culture, enjoying books, movies, in this case movies and television. Yep, yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, we have Elaine Lowe on the podcast. She is the host of a podcast on the Ankler which is a website about the entertainment industry website newsletter about the entertainment industry and she is just like a wealth of knowledge of all things entertainment. So we talked about the Oscars. We talked about the changes in the entertainment industry. We talked about so many things that she is also a tennis player and also a tennis captain here in Los Angeles. So Elaine and I see each other a lot from across the court.

[Elise Hu]

Because you're not on the same team.

[Dory Shafrier]

We have a friendly rivalry. We're both captains of public court teams. So the public court teams have, like, you know, like an understanding with each other. Like, I see you.

[Elise Hu]

She mentions this. She actually wrote a piece for Racket magazine which is headed by former Forever 35 guest Caitlin Thompson, who is the reason I was out in the desert last week. So everybody is kind of connected. Yes. And tennis related.

[Elaine Low]

Yeah, she actually interviewed tennis adjacent.

[Dory Shafrier]

She interviewed me for that piece because it was about people who are captains of, like, USTA Rec tennis teams. Like, basically how crazy we all are. But she said it much, much nicer than that. She made us all look good. Writer. Great writer. She's a great writer.

[Elise Hu]

So.

[Dory Shafrier]

So it was really, really fun to get to talk to her. Elise, what else is happening with you?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I don't remember what I shared from when I was out at the Sensei, this place called the Sensei Resort. I don't know if I told you so. It used to be a private residence, and it was mostly a private residence for a long time. And before they turned it into a resort, I Learned that for 10 years it was where Rafa and Nadal stayed. So it's the. The only guest of this residence was Rafael Nadal while he came to Southern California to play in the Indian Wells tournament. So that was really cool. It was kind of historic tennis grounds, and I got to play on clay for the first time and experience that sliding and the bounce being slower or just the ball being slower, but then the bounce being really wacky when it hits the tape.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Because it's not clay. So, yeah, that was really interesting. I feel like I learned a lot and met some really cool people, including that male model.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hello.

[Elise Hu]

I also got. Yeah, I also got along with him. We together got these sound bath treatments. I think it's called. I don't know, is it called, like, sound therapy? It's where they use a tuning fork on you.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Elise Hu]

Have you seen this?

[Dory Shafrier]

No.

[Elise Hu]

This is very like, woo, woo. Los Angeles. Because I googled what this was called, and the first thing that Google, like, auto filled for me was tuning fork treatments near me. So I was like, what is tuning fork treatment? What is this called?

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Tuning fork healing. It's actually sound healing. It's called sound healing.

[Elaine Low]

Sure.

[Elise Hu]

And it's a private session in which you can, like somebody taps a tuning fork. They put the tuning fork on different parts of your body, like your temples or the soles of your feet or your chest, your arms, whatever, and then tap the other end of it, and it creates a vibration and a kind of ringing in the way that those singing bowls do. Like the Himalayan singing bowls.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

And, yeah, we found ourselves in that situation because, you know, yolo, of course, is a good time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I actually think that I had heard of it before. Like, I wasn't completely worried about what would happen to me because I know some people in my life who have mentioned this or done something like it, but it felt very relaxing, ultimately. Like, the sound, I think, if you're open to it. And then, like, the feelings of the vibration. Also, it was like 11:30 at night and we had all had some wine. So I don't know if it was relaxing because of the sound healing and the tuning fork or whether it was just because I was tired.

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean, look, it could have been a perfect storm of all of those things.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that you did that. I mean, what an experience.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Are you excited about what's coming up? So Elaine is on the show this week because we have the Oscars coming up. So are you going to try and catch up with any movies in the coming week, or do you. Do you plan on watching? I know, it's at a weird time, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

It is at a weird time. Early, actually. The day that this airs, I will be at Indian Wells.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, great. Yeah. So you'll be at the tennis tournament.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I'm going with a group of women from my tennis team. Yeah. Someone just, like, posted in our team group chat, like, does anyone want to go to Indian Wells? And I was like, I can go for the day. And then because, like, the thought of, you know, trying to find a hotel at this point or whatever, it just seemed, like expensive and a lot. And so. And then a few other people were like, I would go for the day. And then someone else was like, I'm actually selling some grounds passes. Like, another teammate had bought grounds passes that she. She ended up going a different day. So she had some grounds passes to sell. So I got, like, a discounted grounds pass. And then one other woman has, like, a big car, so we're gonna just all drive in her car. Like, it all just sort of worked out. And we'll go for the day. We'll go to the grounds, they have these grounds passes. So you can basically just walk in and out of any of the courts that have seats. That have seats. And it's not like the marquee matches.

[Elise Hu]

You'll be able to get into those two, though. I think so since it's the early week or it's the beginning of it, you might be able to get into Court one, but there's big ones. I mean, there's like, big players who play during the day. I prefer. Because I love going to Indian Wells. I prefer to go to Indian Wells during the day because a lot of the top women play on court one during the day. So it's the marquee women. And then they. They hold the night session for, like, Djokovic, you know, so you'll get to see, like, Coco if you want.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm excited. I've never been. And I'm excited to, like, go with tennis friends and. Yeah. Also just, like, see professional tennis. I mean, like, how cool. So that is. That's what's happening with me.

[Elise Hu]

You're going to love it. They don't call it tennis paradise for nothing. This experience is so good because the youth. You get to be so close to the players at the practice courts, too. And so, you know, there's all. There's like the big area where all of the big. The big stadiums are.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And. But then right along the backside are practice courts and a soccer field. So Carlos Alcaraz will be there just like, kicking around a soccer ball. And then you can see him, like, practicing right next to Sinner or Sabalenka practicing with. Or right next to iga. And everyone's just like, there and it's hot. Definitely have a lot of sun protection and a giant, wide rimmed hat. I have a. Hopefully you're on this.

[Dory Shafrier]

I have a new hat. I was also looking at the weather, and we're really lucky because Monday, I think, will be the coolest day next week.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, amazing.

[Dory Shafrier]

At the end of the week, it's gonna be in the 90s, which is like, those poor tennis players. It's gonna be hot. I guess it's a dry heat. I love when people say that. It's like, okay, it's still. Still pretty hot. But yeah.

[Elise Hu]

So that I'm excited for you. That's gonna be so fun. I think it'll be super fun.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think it'll be really fun. Elise, do you have any, like, Indian Wells insider tips?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Okay. The gift shop is, like, crazy. It gets crazier as the day goes on. So when you get there, you. And if you want to get one of those giant tennis balls that people go and get and bring it back for Henry, that's a really great souvenir. I would just try and get any souvenirs and things like that first thing.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's a good tip.

[Elise Hu]

Just like the US Open, they have their own signature Dobel drink or Dobel Tequila or one of the drinks. I really like that cocktail, but it's expensive, so you can live without it. All the food venues are fine. They're pretty good. My main Indian wealth tip for folks who are going to is to try and get your tickets on the side of the stadium that is shaded. And so, like my friend John, who we've gone with the last couple of years, he always knows, like, these are the sections where it's shaded at midday and these are the sections where the shade will reach by 4pm but since you're going and just wandering on grounds pass, you can just go, you know, you can just play it by ear.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And then you don't have to stay for that long too. You can, like watch some of it and then leave when you get sick of it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

They just let people in based on availability. You're gonna have a great time.

[Dory Shafrier]

But I'm excited. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Just stay hydrated. Stay Hydrated is my main one.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right. I will stay hydrated. Thank you. All right, well, let's get to our guest. Elaine is a staff writer at the Ankler and she covers the evolution of Hollywood's business model and work culture in the streaming age. And she writes the weekly series Business Business Newsletter, which is a great newsletter. She's worked at Business Insider and Variety, and she got her start as a reporter for Investors Business Daily. She has appeared on every big business and entertainment news and radio show. And she also won an LA Press Club National Arts and Entertainment Journalism award for her piece on Hollywood's reckoning over representation amid the Black Lives Matter movement, which is pretty cool. All right. And before we get to Elaine, just a reminder that we have our website, forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. You can join our [e-mail] Forever35. We do our weekly casual chats there. We have our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We also have ad free episodes at the 10 level and above. And we have our free newsletter at the free tier. So check that [e-mail] forever35 just a reminder, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and here's Elaine. Elaine Low, welcome to Forever35. It's really great to have you on the show.

[Elaine Low]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Dory Shafrier]

So before we get into all kinds of Oscars and entertainment industry and tennis goodness, we always start off by asking our guests one question, which is what is the self care practice that you have?

[Elaine Low]

I know we're not talking about tennis yet, but tennis kind of is my self care. That is legit. It is the only space outside of work and outside of family that I really carve out for myself.

[Dory Shafrier]

And you have two kids, right?

[Elaine Low]

Yeah, I have two kids in elementary school. So I am, I am in the thick of it as they say.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, yes. I feel that if you're exercising and using your body, it's good to like restore your body and stretch and foam roll and things like that. How is your routine post tennis like just to prevent injuries. Are you good about stretching and other therapies, getting massages, et cetera?

[Elaine Low]

In theory I should be stretching, I should be foam rolling. I would love to get a massage. I don't do any of those things. It's probably gonna come back to bite me one of these days. Um, I'm curious Dory what your post match routine is, but mine is like go sit in the car and chug the rest of my 64 ounce Yeti and then I go home and I really should do more outside of just like taking a hot shower or like an Epsom salt bath.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, I know, I don't, I don't do. I will say like when I play singles I feel like I need to do a little bit more like active recovery but when I play doubles I'm pretty lazy about like my post match routine.

[Elaine Low]

Same.

[Dory Shafrier]

So yeah, probably not great that I don't have, you know, something more kind of formal for my middle aged bones.

[Elaine Low]

But what do you do after singles?

[Dory Shafrier]

I mean I really try to stretch after singles and that's good. Even like do a little yoga or just something because I'm usually like, I mean depending on the match. But you can get kind of sore after singles especially like a, like a two hour match.

[Elaine Low]

But I played a double header. Yeah, I played a double header a couple Sundays ago and it started out with a 3, 5 doubles match at 9am and then that went a full two hours, went into a third set tie break and right after that I had to go across town to go to LATC for a 3, 0 singles match. And it was high noon and the sun was out.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elaine Low]

I was already tired and I thought, you know what, I'll just like go really easy in the first part of this. The first match, you know, it's doubles, you know, they'll be okay. And then we went, we went long. We had the full two hours. And then that singles match went the full two hours to the point where we actually had to do a sudden death point.

[Elise Hu]

Wow.

[Elaine Low]

So it's four hours of tennis back to back. Do not recommend.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's always what happens though. Whenever you say you'll play more than one match in a day, you go the full two hours. Like, it's just like the law of tennis. Like, and then when you have nothing else going on, your match is over in like an hour. But if you're, if you're like, well, one of these matches will be short. No, it's going to go the full two hours. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Which is to say you should stretch.

[Elaine Low]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a day I probably should have foam rolled.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

Well, Elaine, we wanted to talk to you about tennis, but we also wanted to talk to you about Hollywood and the entertainment industry, especially with Oscars coming up. This will air on Monday. So a week, a little less than a week before the Oscars. Tell us about how you're feeling about the Oscars this year. Like, I mean, my kind of big question is, like, do awards shows, even the Oscars, like, do they still matter?

[Elaine Low]

That is a great question. I think about before I actually covered entertainment. Let me tell you, when I covered Wall street, maybe tuned into the Oscars once every couple of years, like, for a spell, you know, And I think that's probably more the norm, especially when you look at the ratings over the last decade. But I do think they still matter. They definitely matter to the industry within this bubble that I cover. And sometimes it can be hard to see past the bubble of, like, what people who don't work in the industry are feeling in this bubble. It still matters a great deal. It is the most prestigious award show

[Elise Hu]

and as you say, matter. Like, I get that it matters for actors being able to book jobs, you know, or increase their fee and, you know, studios feeling like they're winning or losing. But how do does it matter to me, you know, as somebody who just watches movies and enjoys pop culture?

[Elaine Low]

Well, I think there's something the Oscars. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like growing up back when the Oscars did have higher ratings, back when there were fewer channels where there were no streaming services, it was more of a communal act. It was the same thing as watching the Super Bowl. You know, you gathered around and it was a big deal, and you talked about it the next day. And there's still that cultural through line I think you see here to a lesser extent, but still, like, wanting to be part of that cultural conversation the next day.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah. And I do think I've, overall, just to partially answer my own question, is I've been introduced to films that I might have not heard of before, especially certain documentaries and shorts through their Oscar wins or their Oscar nods. So that's always helpful in a curatorial sense.

[Elaine Low]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

What are you excited about? Like, which films are you excited about?

[Elaine Low]

Ooh, I Mean, I think one battle after another. Have you guys.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yep.

[Elise Hu]

Loved it.

[Elaine Low]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

Must be seen in a theater, I think.

[Elaine Low]

Oh, I saw it on an airplane.

[Elise Hu]

So did it not make you feel kind of like woozy?

[Elaine Low]

It was a lot. And I had done a back to back. I was on a six hour flight back from Miami. I was covering, I was at a work conference and I was coming back and I was like, okay, I've got six hours. What am I going to do with myself? So I watched Past Lives first because I was catching up on the previous year's films.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great.

[Elaine Low]

You know, Celine Song 824. Beautiful film. And then I was like, well, what, what can I watch after this that's completely different? I was like, let's watch one battle after another. Boy, was that different. So I think just the, the. It was very jarring going from Past lives to one battle after another. I can definitely see why you should watch that film in theaters. Did you both watch it in theaters?

[Dory Shafrier]

I have not seen it.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, girl. It's a good one. It's a good one. Okay, so that one. Yeah, that one you like. Do you think that One Battle After Another is likely to win Best Picture?

[Elaine Low]

I think it's got a great chance. I mean, it's in. It's one again. It's one of those movies that's in the cultural conversation. It's Paul Thomas Anderson, Leonardo DiCaprio, Tiana Taylor. And I think it has it sort of reached that level of awareness too, not just within the voter base, which I, I think is sometimes sort of the tricky part too. Right. In trying to translate all the industry chatter to a broader audience. When it's a movie that most people haven't seen and you see people getting up on stage and you're like, what's that movie?

[Elise Hu]

I think to some extent that happened with. Was it Honora last year that won? Yeah, Anora won last year. And I think a lot of the general public maybe was introduced to Anora through its wins.

[Elaine Low]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

But the other big box office hit over the past year that I think is also nominated is Sinners, which I would also recommend seeing in a theater. But surprisingly, I don't think it's like done as well in the run up. So I wanted to ask you about that. Like, this is not just one big awards show. It's the culmination of a lot of awards shows. What has been kind of the chatter over the past few months in the run up, not about who's going to win or lose, but all the changes that are happening in entertainment, whether it's the possibility of further strikes, whether it's AI and how it's changing everything, whether it's the fact that we're all going to be working for Larry Ellison one day.

[Elaine Low]

Well, Sinners is a Warner Brothers Pictures film, and they have had a great year. Like, they had a great 2025, and they're a film studio that went into 2025 with the, the rumor was sort of like, oh, are the heads of those of that studio, Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi, like, are they in trouble? And then they wound up having a crusher of a year, you know, between Sinners and the Minecraft mo everything else.

[Elise Hu]

And now Wuthering Heights is theirs.

[Elaine Low]

Yeah. And, you know, I, I, I, I think they're in an interesting position now because they had a great year and now they're being acquired by Paramount. Skydance, which has been the whole drama that has consumed my whole life these last couple of months.

[Dory Shafrier]

Uncle Larry, I, I wanted to, you know, what are, what are some of the other kind of big Hollywood narratives that are happening right now? Um, you know, in the industry? Obviously the Warner Brothers one is huge, but what else?

[Elaine Low]

Well, I mean, outside of the war, that's the kind of, the thing that's been, it's been consuming so much of the conversation because Netflix was also part of that conversation. And Netflix kind of is the, it's the dominant streamer. It's the one to be. So the idea at first that Netflix was going to acquire Warner Brothers was wild and, you know, sort of a sign of the times of like a big Silicon Valley tech giant potentially swallowing an historic studio. But the technology component of that is a big part of the conversation. AI is still very much so a contentious issue. And, you know, you mentioned the strikes. We're coming up on three years of that writer strike beginning and the actor strike following soon after. And I remember covering those strikes and being outside of those picket lines, outside of Netflix, outside of Disney and Warner Brothers. And, you know, all the signs were about AI, they were about billionaires and, but the AI part of it was so abstract back then. It was kind of just like this big, big bad of like, oh, we don't want AI rewriting our scripts for us. But I don't really know how many people were actually using it in early 2023, to the point where I was like, should this really be, like, front of mind? And now flash forward to 2026? And yeah, I guess I was wrong in that count because people are actually Deploying AI on movie sets. They are using AI to help do script coverage at the agencies, to help read those scripts that are coming in. They're using AI to, you know, an animation. They're using it in post production and visual effects. And it's. It's here. It's here. And that came up way faster than I would have predicted. So I think AI is, is pretty much the other major thread of conversation in the industry right now.

[Elise Hu]

Does it result in less programming, less stuff for us to watch as consumers, or does it result in just worse stuff? What do you think is the outcome if more and more of the production is farmed out to AI?

[Elaine Low]

Well, the guilds have drawn their lines in the sand, so the way AI is being rolled out is. Is something that still has to be negotiated between, you know, the Writers Guild, the Actors Guild and the studios. And one thing that they came out of those strikes with in 2023 was, you know, informed consent and compensation. If you're gonna have an AI component, somebody has to get comped for, you know, using their likeness, using their work. But it is. I don't, I don't think at this stage there's a threat of suddenly seeing a bunch of, like, totally AI generated shows. I don't think the studios necessarily want that. I don't think definitely the creatives on the ground don't want that. I think you're just seeing it more in the social media space. And because you're seeing it on Tick Tock or Instagram or whatever, it's mainly that thing of they're competing for attention. Right. Like, so much of viewing is done on YouTube. So many people are, you know, doom scrolling on Instagram instead of watching tv. So I think it's more a question of are people watching AI slop online instead of sitting down and watching a show or watching one battle after another on HBO Max, you know?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, it's now available on HBO Max. Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. I guess that that makes me also curious about how, like, the rise of vertical video has affected all of these companies and their programming.

[Elaine Low]

Oh, my God. Can we talk about the names of these shows? I don't know. Do you guys watch these very well videos?

[Elise Hu]

My former tennis coach is the highest paid real shorts star.

[Elaine Low]

No, wait, who is your former tennis coach?

[Elise Hu]

His name is Jesse Morales.

[Elaine Low]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

And he actually texted me.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is like such a good, like, dovetailing of Elaine's interests.

[Elaine Low]

Perfect, perfect. Love it.

[Elise Hu]

I know. He actually texted me a People magazine feature that he's in because he's so Excited about it. But anyway, say more about Vertical Video. The. The title, for example, is like, my stepdad is a werewolf.

[Elaine Low]

I wouldn't be surprised if that were actually the title. Okay, It's. What was it like? It's like fake dating my arch nemesis or, you know, bad billionaires. It's the. The demographic of werewolves and billionaires is like disproportionately high.

[Elise Hu]

I highly trust their viewership numbers because how come they have such high viewership numbers but no one?

[Elaine Low]

Like, I don't like no one you know, is like.

[Elise Hu]

It's not no one that I know because I also know that no one I know really watches Tracker on CBS either. Like, I didn't know a lot of the prime time CBS shows. And so it's not that it's no one that I know. It's just. It doesn't seem like it's really in the cultural zeitgeist, except for whoever these people are who are like in the millions and hundreds of millions, I guess watching these serialized vertical soaps that are two minutes long.

[Elaine Low]

Does it feel like one of those things that's happening in the zeitgeist where you're reading about it more than actually experiencing it? A hundred percent, yeah. I mean, it is big in Asia and so a lot of these trends are sort of trickling down. And so verticals really took off in China and the rest of Asia a couple years ago and they've kind of just landed here in the last year. I actually interviewed the CEO of Real Short and it was fascinating to hear how they structure these stories. Like for all that legacy Hollywood people complain about, like, oh, like Netflix and the algorithm. And like, how much they rely on data is like, oh boy, you should see how much the vertical people rely on data. I was asking him, I was like, okay, so how do you structure these?

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elaine Low]

Cause these are like 75, 60 second chapters. Right, right. But you gotta get people clicking to the next one, clicking to the next one, which means you have to structure these. So there's a cliffhanger at the end of every 60 second seconds. And he said that we have writers training programs where we will train writers to write this way. And he's like. And then we look at the data and he's like, at first, when we first started, we saw the data. Like, we saw. We saw viewership drop off. So then we like kept incorporating, you know, different kinds of stories, like more cliffhangers, crazier stuff. And then, you know, you saw engagement sort of stick and he's like, oh yeah. If you can get somebody to watch like, you know, like 70% of one of these like 75 chapter things, I guess that's pretty good.

[Elise Hu]

And it reminds me of like K pop videos where they analyze like the formation of everything is data. Like they analyze the formation of how the group of seven are presented. Like how long each person. Yeah. How long each person gets in a music video. And what's more in like who's more engaging and in what roles. It's completely like it treats humans or the output of humans as technology.

[Elaine Low]

Oh, whoa.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And it sounds like Real Shorts is very similar. Fascinating. Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

I don't watch them very much, but I mean, but they sound, I mean, I, they're apparently a big business.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

And I do, I do think that I will say this is like very tangential and like, as fellow media people, you know, maybe you, you get this about microtransactions, but I'm just like, you know, maybe one thing we could learn is like microtransactions. Like we talk about journalism dying all the time, but like, what if you only had to pay for an article instead of paying for a full annual subscription?

[Elise Hu]

I totally thought this. I totally thought this. Like we. I helped found the Texas Tribune, which is like a POLITICO or ProPublica but for Texas.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

And it was political news and it was, it's a nonprofit. It remains to this day this nonprofit newsroom. And it was sort of like, how do we get people to donate? But we would ask for big donations from like oil and gas people. But I was sort of like, why don't we just say that you can pitch in a few bucks for an article or you could pay for an article. And like there just wasn't. Some of it was that the ideas of microtransactions were before the technology existed. So like now I think it's super possible. But in like 2009 you can do a one click. It wasn't even easy to donate. Yeah, it wasn't even easy to donate.

[Elaine Low]

So things have changed.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

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[Elaine Low]

I mean are we ready to go down the millennial Gen X like Spiral Like, I mean, I mean, you guys read that New York Times story last year.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I sent it to Dorian Dory's like, yeah, I have already gotten this from like nine other friends.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, why is everyone sending this to me?

[Elise Hu]

But build that out. So like, for folks who might not be familiar, what's happening?

[Elaine Low]

Well, generationally, I think every generation is facing a tough time in a totally different way. Right. Within Hollywood, within the entertainment industry. But I imagine that there are a lot of these issues are universal for Hollywood.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elaine Low]

Like for a long time this is an industry that sold a relatively stable fantasy of how our career worked. You know, if you're an actor, you started out in commercials for anybody else. You know, you start at the bottom. You start as an assistant. You know, you start out in the mail room if you want to be an agent, and then you kind of climb your way up. Like there's a path, like it's not easy, but there's a path. Now entertainment is so much of it is a gig economy. It's like one off jobs. Even if you're a writer, you could have been a stable TV writer for a long time, but because there aren't 22 to 23 episode shows on broadcast anymore, instead you're getting these six to eight episode orders on streaming shows and then you might go two years without working. So it's like, are you, you know, really full time anymore if that's your cadence of work? And I think that's the same thing outside of the entertainment industry as well. It's like you look at journalism, you look at so many of these industries, creative industries, where it's like this used to be a full time stable job and, and now it's kind of like you're piecing together freelance work. So Gen Z's, who I just most recently wrote about, like 20 somethings in the entertainment industry these days are facing this issue of like, the ladder's broken.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

Like there's no path up. And, and then also like, how do you build the next generation of creative leaders in a time when AI is threatening to really, you know, encroach upon this space? How do you do that when everything seems to be pulled apart? And so, you know, I talked to a bunch of 20 somethings for a story that we ran this week on the Angler and their stories are wild. It's like I talk to people who are young executives who finally managed to climb the ladder, but they're still, they got the promotion, but they still have to do their assistant duties. They still have to do their coordinator duties. They got like a tiny pay bump where they got no pay bump, but they got a title bump. And one. One head of development at an indie production company was telling me. She was like, you know, I live in a, in a small apartment in Hollywood and my car's gotten broken into. I share it with a roommate, and I pay $1,100 a month in rent with this roommate. You know, I walk outside in the morning and there's human feces on the sidewalk. People are like, you're an executive. Like, why don't you move? And she's like, because this is rent controlled. And, you know, like, times are hard.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

But like, I don't know that people in the past necessarily face the same thing. Because if you looked in the late 90s, the early 2000s in the industry, you had people like, you know, Jamie Tarsis or Jeff Zucker, these, like, people who would rise in the ranks, and they were like 32, like, they were getting to really impressive places really quickly. And so there was a ladder and they were climbing, and so people were climbing behind them. And it felt like there was movement. It felt like you could actually achieve your goals. And I talked to a lot of those Gen Xers who came up then. Some of those who were rising, you know, were on this rocket ship and then things just plateaued for them.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

So, you know, you want to talk about just this broken ladder. It's like if, if, you know, if you're 40 or 50 something and your career is kind of going this way, it's like, yeah, that's going to create downward pressure on everybody else. And then you look at everybody who's reigning at the top of the agencies, at the top of these studios, like that average or median age just keeps going up and up and up. And. And if you hit the gray ceiling, there's a trickle down effect.

[Elise Hu]

So what is your prognosis then? So if this is the state of things, is there an affirmative vision or are you sort of just like pragmatic and realistic about things being the way they are?

[Elaine Low]

And that's an interesting question. And I ask this of all the people I talk to, of all the generations, and you know, honestly, like the boomers that I've talked to, it's like, it's. It's kind of like everybody else is kind of like, well, you know, you got while the getting was good and now you get to retire and the rest of us. Retirement is just a dream. Right. But then the boomers will tell you listen, it wasn't any easier, like in the 70s and we went through our own fair share of abuses or whatever, and. And like every. Every 20 something coming up thinks that they have it tough.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

And I think that's true. Like, every 20 something does have a tough, but in a totally different way.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Elaine Low]

But the advice I hear most, to the point where I don't know if it seems trite, is you have to be entrepreneurial, you have to go independent, you have to create your own stuff. And that's all very easy to say. I think it's harder to be entrepreneurial and then still create a sustainable career. And I think again, you'll find that in many industries outside of entertainment, where it's like, sure, like, I can be entrepreneurial, like, I can create my own thing. I can, you know, have my own independent company. But monetizing that and creating a financial life for yourself out of that is tough. And I think when you talk about sort of the YouTuber Gen Z Gen Alpha version of that, I mean, like, what's the version for millennials and Gen Xers? It's, you know, making yourself a brand. Right. And like, it's essentially the same concept, but it's the commodification of the self. And you commodify yourself when you can't find a sustainable financial path through an institution. So then you have to commodify yourself. But we frame that as you're making yourself a brand. And it, like, sounds great that way. Right. But like, what is that really, when you think about it? And I mean, I'm not saying, you know, that's not to downplay. I'm sure some people, like, enjoy doing that and enjoy taking that entrepreneurial, independent path. But I think when you present it as the only alternative option to having a broken system and a broken ladder, that's when it is an issue.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It puts the solution on individuals for a systemic problem.

[Elaine Low]

Yeah, totally.

[Dory Shafrier]

It.

[Elaine Low]

I mean, I could go down a whole rabbit hole of, like, how self care and wellness, like, does the same thing, Right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yep.

[Elise Hu]

It's like you solve it to fix it for yourself. But what about this matrix that we're in that requires us to fix anything at all in the first place?

[Elaine Low]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Well, good job bringing it back into wellness.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, I think that's a good segue to talking about tennis. Elaine, you and I are both women's tennis team captains here in Los Angeles. And you know, I think adult recreational tennis has changed my life for the better. And I. I'd love to hear you talk about how it's changed your life and what you love about the game and also being a captain, because being a captain is also, like, its own special mentality. And you wrote a great article for Racket, actually, about, like, being. Being a recreational tennis captain.

[Elaine Low]

Oh, thanks. It was only a little unhinged, but

[Dory Shafrier]

we are unhinged there for that.

[Elaine Low]

I'm there for it. No, I mean, rec. Tennis was something that came back into my life, like so many people, during the pandemic. It was the only socially distanced sport that you could do it across the net, safely outside. And I just did it because I was bouncing off the walls in my own home and wanted to do something safely during the pandemic. And then it turned into, like, a whole other obsession that I could not have ever predicted because I'm a very sedentary person, or at least I was before tennis, before I decided to do double headers on a Sunday that involved four hours in the sun. Like, I. If you had talked to me about that, like, five years ago, I would have been like, you're crazy. I'm gonna go lay on the sofa and, like, watch tv. But there's something very addictive about tennis in a way that I'd never experienced before with any other kind of workout. Like, you know, runners sort of talk about, like, runners high. I tried that. I joined run clubs. I didn't get it. Like, I was just like, I'm so happy for you guys, but I don't get it. And I just. I wasn't the kind of person who would go to the gym, but, like, tennis was it. And it then it just opened this door to this really great community out here. As I'm sure Dory you can attest to. It's a great group of women. A lot of people I would never have met otherwise, who I. You know, psych. If a lot of my friends I meet through work and through social circles, and it's like, oh, like, look at this really interesting variety of people. Like, one of the guys on my mixed team is on my mix doubles team. He was an accountant, and he quit his job to become a pilot. And I'm just like, wow, what an interesting career.

[Dory Shafrier]

Would have met that person, right?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Fantastic. Well, Elaine, stick around for the questionnaire because we're going to have a little extra Q and A for our Patreon. But tell folks how they can find you if they're not going to get to hear the extra.

[Elaine Low]

I can be reached for all things [e-mail] and I encourage anybody interested in the business to listen to ankler agenda. Otherwise, for all things Tennis, I'[e-mail] Fantastic.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you, Elaine. Well, that was fun to get to talk to Elaine. I'm excited for the Oscars. Even though I haven't really seen many of the movies, I'm still excited for the Oscars.

[Elise Hu]

I'm rooting for sinners. I'm rooting for sinners. But I feel like it's not gonna. It's not gonna go their way. Yeah, we'll see what happens.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right. We'll see. Elise, how did it go last week with no rushing since I got to

[Elise Hu]

go on a random trip to a spa resort for three days and ate Nobu seven meals straight. I would say I lived out that intention.

[Dory Shafrier]

You should.

[Elise Hu]

I had a day of like doing nothing and it felt amazing and I wish I was there longer. I did come back and say like this. I mentioned on the casual chat, I was like, rob, you're gonna have to sell one of your TV show ideas because we need to go there again. We need to go there again. And he's like, I'm working on it. And so no pressure, no pressure, no pressure. I just need to go back to that resort. So.

[Dory Shafrier]

So funny.

[Elise Hu]

That was really great. But this week I've come back sore because I played so much tennis and did so much yoga and I usually don't. And so I need to do some foam rolling therapy. So that's going to be my intention this week to try and just foam roll a little bit each day and just stretch. I do not like stretching. I just don't like it. Elaine talks about it at the beginning or talked about it at the beginning of her interview. I'm just, I don't like it. So I'm gonna try and foam roll, do some foam rolling and stretching this week and hope that it improves my condition.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay.

[Elise Hu]

What about you? How did the play date go?

[Dory Shafrier]

The play date went great. It was really, it was really fun. Henry had a blast. I had a lot of fun with the other moms there. Our house was clean. Our house is still clean. So I would say overall, big success. And then this week I have my parents coming. My parents get into town tonight.

[Elise Hu]

So what brings them into town?

[Dory Shafrier]

Just a visit. Just one of their bi annual visits. So, yeah, it's gonna just, you know, try to have fun with them and hope that they have some nice quality time with Henry and yeah, yeah, that's, that's the intention.

[Elise Hu]

Break out the sofa bed.

[Dory Shafrier]

Break out the sofa bed. Gotta get that set up. All right, thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everyone so much. We'll talk to you soon.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time. Bye.

[Dory Shafrier]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Elaine Low]

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[Elise Hu]

In a first on Mind of a

[Elaine Low]

Monster, we dive into a case that's still active. Did Michael's murderous rampage start in the 1990s when he was just 17? His impulsivity and his rage was starting to peak around that age. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Hollywood Ripper. Wherever you get your podcasts, ACAST helps

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[Elaine Low]

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