Episode 394: Life, Joy, and Meaning in Uncertain Times with Marisa Renee Lee

Summary

Forever35 Podcast – Episode 394: "Life, Joy, and Meaning in Uncertain Times with Marisa Renee Lee"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Marisa Renee Lee
Date: March 23, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores how to find comfort, joy, and meaning amid personal and societal uncertainty. Doree and Elise welcome back Marisa Renee Lee, author of "Grief is Love" and the forthcoming "Waiting for Dawn," to talk about living with chronic illness, enduring grief, and navigating an unpredictable world. By sharing personal stories, practical self-care tips, and reflections from her own journey through long Covid and loss, Marisa offers listeners candid, research-informed advice on enduring hardship and cultivating hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Catch-Up: Decluttering, Beauty Standards, and Joy in Small Things

• Doree shares a triumph in reorganizing her hallway closet. She talks about the satisfaction of decluttering and how sharing before-and-after photos is a form of joy among friends.

  • Notable Quote:
    • "I have a big update. ... The hallway closet is one of those like sliding door, like reach-in closets. And it had literally just become a repository of randomness and like stacks of things." — Doree [03:22]

• Elise discusses her conversation with beauty influencer Amy Chang about Asian beauty standards, double eyelid surgery, and how becoming a mother reshaped Amy's view on cosmetic changes.

  • Notable Insight:
    • The history of double eyelid surgery is more nuanced than often portrayed; its origins are not only about western beauty ideals. [08:14–08:58]

Guest Introduction: Marisa Renee Lee

• Marisa is an expert in grief, chronic illness, and social healing, drawing both on personal experience and public service. Her new book "Waiting for Dawn" reflects on coping with ongoing uncertainty. [18:00+]

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Main Interview with Marisa Renee Lee

Self-Care Through Breathwork and Chronic Illness

[22:11–26:23]

• Current Self-Care: Marisa uses structured breathwork—via the MioHealth app—to manage asthma developed during long Covid:
  • "I've gotten deep into breathwork. It ended up healing my asthma that I got as a part of the long Covid." — Marisa [22:28]
• Elise connects, mentioning her own asthma flare and the struggle to breathe deeply.
• Marisa stresses trusting your instincts if you suspect you have long Covid, and advocates for finding doctors who listen:
  • "Listen to your instincts... I don't want people to just stay stuck in a horrible, suffering place because they don't believe themselves or because other people don't believe them." — Marisa [26:35]

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Navigating Uncertainty and "Gray Grief"

[27:39–33:05]

• Origin of "Waiting for Dawn": The book was initially meant to help people support others during crisis, but Marisa’s own tumultuous period—her mother-in-law’s cancer, a cousin’s murder, and her own long Covid—shifted the focus to living through enduring uncertainty.
• Definition: Introduces "gray grief" as grief for a life forever altered, and the “persistent feeling of stress or overwhelm related to the unknown.”
  • "The only thing you have agency over is how you move through it." — Marisa [32:20]
• Marisa’s writing offers a “compass” for navigating prolonged hardship by blending research with lived experience.

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Day-to-Day Living with Uncertainty: Coping Tools & Play

[33:17–36:44]

• Tangible Practices: Marisa leans on small, joyful activities—watching Bridgerton, watercolor painting, potholder weaving—to bring peace during ongoing hardship.
  • "It’s those kinds of small indulgences that I can still handle in a sick body... just taking a little bit of time out really does make a difference." — Marisa [34:50]
• Doree recalls rediscovering paint-by-number kits during early lockdown, echoing the therapeutic value of low-stakes creativity.

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The "100 List": Learning to Prioritize Yourself

[39:36–41:54]

• Marisa describes making a list of 100 things—acts of self-care, boundaries set, or things she says no to—to practice prioritizing herself for the first time.
  • "I never really learned how to prioritize Marisa without lengthy explanations. ... The 100 came out of a realization that, like, I am not good at putting myself first." — Marisa [39:58]
• Both hosts and Marisa emphasize the importance (especially for women) of celebrating both doing new things and declining requests when needed.
  • "No is a complete sentence." — Doree [42:06]

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New Treatments and The Challenge of Chronic Illness

[42:30–45:28]

• Marisa details her ongoing long Covid treatment:
  • Low-dose naltrexone offers some benefit.
  • She is now trying tirzepatide (Zepbound), a GLP-1 drug at low doses for its anti-inflammatory effects, and reports significant improvement.
  • Her husband administers the weekly injection.
  • "I felt a difference, honestly, within 48 hours... if it is going to work, generally speaking you feel the effects pretty quickly." — Marisa [44:11–44:26]

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Finding Comfort Amid World Chaos & Setting Boundaries

[45:39–48:37]

• Comfort is not about ignoring the world’s troubles, but about processing them compassionately and setting boundaries—including with your phone (she uses the "Brick" app to reduce doomscrolling):

  • "I think comfort is about acknowledging those things, giving yourself space to feel empathy and compassion for the people who are most directly impacted, and then also holding some empathy and compassion for yourself." — Marisa [45:49]
  • "Making sure you figure out what boundaries need to look like for you, and what comfort looks like for you, I just, I think it's really important." — Marisa [48:37]

• Elise asks for bath product recommendations; Marisa suggests magnesium flakes for their anti-inflammatory and soothing properties. [49:41]

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Asking for Help: Rejecting Isolation

[49:52–53:26]

• Marisa challenges the myth of self-sufficiency:
  • "We live in a culture that prizes individualism... and it's just ridiculous. Like, it's not real. Human beings evolved in community for a reason. This is how we are meant to live." — Marisa [49:52]
• Shares how being open about long Covid led to critical support and new friendships.
  • "Within about two hours I had an email... she said, if I can be of help to you... And that woman became my doctor." — Marisa [52:34]

---

Lessons Learned: Endurance, Patience, Confronting Ableism, and Redefining Hope

[53:39–55:58]

• Acceptance: Some challenges must simply be endured.
• Patience: Marisa notes she’s learned much about waiting without clear answers.
• Confronting Ableism: Personal experience with disability deepened her perspective on accessibility and inclusion.
  • "I'm surprised and honestly a little bit embarrassed by how deeply committed I was to ableism and how much I didn't understand about disability and... the experiences of people who are disabled." — Marisa [54:31]
• Hope as Action: She reframes hope as an active commitment to pursue joy and meaning, not passive optimism.
  • "Hope isn't this light, airy, nebulous thing that's similar to optimism. Hope is a very real thing that can drive us forward to lasting change if we remain committed to it." — Marisa [55:53]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Living in Chaos

• "Unprecedented now precedented times. Everything's unprecedented until it becomes precedented." — Elise [03:02]

On Setting Boundaries with Technology

• "I recently... bought myself this thing called The Brick... when my phone is in brick mode and it becomes more of just a phone versus like this endless stream of information." — Marisa [47:03]

On the Value of Joyful Distraction

• "As adults, we don't take out enough time for play... but just having, you know, taking a half an hour, an hour a week to do something that's just fun and cool." — Marisa [35:53]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [22:11] Marisa’s Self-Care: Breathwork and Long Covid Recovery
• [26:23] Advice for Those with Long Covid
• [27:39] Origin and Themes of "Waiting for Dawn"
• [31:23] "Gray Grief" and Coping with Unending Uncertainty
• [33:17] Everyday Practices and Small Joys
• [39:36] The "100 List": Prioritizing Yourself
• [42:30] New Treatment for Long Covid
• [45:39] Defining Comfort and Setting Boundaries
• [49:41] Bath Rituals: Magnesium Flakes
• [49:52] Asking for Help vs. Rugged Individualism
• [53:39] Marisa’s Key Lessons and Takeaways

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Useful Links

• Marisa Renee Lee: Website/Substack ("Holding Both")
• "Waiting for Dawn": Available everywhere books are sold (as of April 7, 2026)

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a reflective, compassionate, and practical exploration of how to endure and even thrive amid ongoing uncertainty. Through honest self-disclosure, concrete rituals, and a strong emphasis on community and self-kindness, Marisa and the hosts provide comfort and solidarity to anyone facing difficult, drawn-out challenges.

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(For product mentions, bath salts, and all referenced resources, visit Forever35Podcast.com)

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

I am really feeling that the busy season has started. I don't know about you Elise. Yes, but I think what's really important is that we need to remember to put a little bit of ourselves first too. And we can do that with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, it's Peloton's most elevated equipment. Equipment with real time guidance and endless ways to move alone or with your favorite instructors. It's cross training reimagined with features designed to help you reach your goals effortlessly. And personally, I know that having a plan helps me stay motivated. Knowing that I have a certain class on a certain day, even at a certain time, helps me move forward with my fitness goals even if I don't really want to show up on that certain day or certain time.

[Elise Hu]

I get it. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Peloton IQ provides just that with their personalized plans and recommendations. This can include weekly recommended classes led by instructors who match your mood, vibe and personality. Not to mention the variety and workouts available. Go on a 45 minute run on the tread plus or a 5 minute stretch off of it with one smooth spin of that swivel screen. It offers endless ways to train for a well rounded routine. No matter how busy you are, let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new Peloton Cross training TREAD [e-mail] Foreign. Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

And today we have a return guest on the show, Marissa Renee Lee. She is so lovely and so interesting

[Elise Hu]

and she's out with a new book.

[Dori Shafrier]

And she's out with a great new book. Her new book is about uncertainty, which I feel like in these times is like very salient.

[Elise Hu]

Unprecedented now precedented times. Everything's unprecedented until it becomes precedented.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, exactly.

[Elise Hu]

Now we just live in chaos.

[Dori Shafrier]

It's so true. So true.

[Elise Hu]

But speaking of living in chaos, your decluttering project going?

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay, I have a big update. Okay, let me set this up for you. So on Sunday, I took Henry to Kids Space, which is a children's museum here in la. And Matt didn't come with us. And he was like, oh, what am I going to do while you guys are gone? I was like, well, you could get started on the hallway closet. And he's like, yeah, okay, I'll do that. The hall. Let me just like the hallway closet is one of those like sliding door, like reach in closets. And it had literally just become a repository of randomness and like stacks of things. Like you could barely even. Also the doors were off the track so like you could barely even get into it. And then outside the closet was all this other stuff that should have been in the closet. Like our Costco snacks.

[Elise Hu]

You know, you didn't dare slide the door open for fear that the door wouldn't close again.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, there was like nowhere to put this stuff. It was so bad. So I got home. Okay, and Matt had made a big dent, like had filled a. Started filling a huge garbage bag. And like it looked really good. And he was like. And he had like investigated. He done research on bins that we should get to put in there to organize stuff. And I was, this is great. I'm getting these from Target right now. So then I got to work on it and it's now done. Well, pretty much the vast majority of it done. And everything is out of the hallway.

[Elise Hu]

Holy cow, that's big. That's big. Yeah, you're almost ready to just show your house. You should have, have an open house.

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean that's huge.

[Elise Hu]

Good for you.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

I have a hallway closet like that and it's. I sort of like that. It's just like the junk closet because when, when in doubt, I'll just throw stuff in there. But now you have so much more space in yours.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, you know, this was also the function of this closet, but it was not. It was, it was non functional.

[Elise Hu]

It was Overflowing.

[Dori Shafrier]

It was overflowing. So I said to Matt, I have this one friend who loves, like, before and after decluttering pictures or, like, her porn. So I was like, you have to take. And we always forget to take before pictures. So I was like, you have to take some before pictures. So he took some before pictures, and now we have some after pictures. So maybe I'll share those on the Patreon. I don't think I'm ready to have those be, like, for wide public consumption.

[Elise Hu]

But I feel like the Patreon is very intimate. Yes. It's like how Charlene Kay was talking about ASMR triggers. And some people really like the nails on the containers. And she really likes a soft voice telling you everything's going to be okay. Your friend likes before and after photos of decoy.

[Dori Shafrier]

I like what we like. Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

That's right. That's right. I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum.

[Dori Shafrier]

Right?

[Elise Hu]

That's rule number four of the Hugh Styles family. Don't yuck my yum.

[Dori Shafrier]

Don't yuck your yummy.

[Elise Hu]

So, yeah, if you quizzed all the girls, they'd be like, oh, yes. And rule number four, don't yuck anyone's yum.

[Dori Shafrier]

I mean, I think that's like a. A good. A good policy in general.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Except when I get called out on it.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, also, sometimes it's like, well, you know what? I am going to yuck your yum, because what you are describing is disgusting. You know what I mean? Like, my son likes to pick his nose and eat it. I am going to yuck that yum.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, like, yeah, you know, I get it. As one should.

[Dori Shafrier]

As one should indeed. What's going on with you?

[Elise Hu]

I have some travel coming up, so I will be in St. Louis, the city of my birth. Though, as I have mentioned, I probably won't see it because I'll be in a volleyball gym. And what else? I had this recent conversation with Amy Chang, who is a beauty influencer, since we do talk about serums. She's very glowy. She's very glowy and dewy. And I know this because I just saw the video of the interview, a video clip of the interview. And we had this great conversation about a lot of Asian beauty standards. And we go into the double eyelid surgery, which she got when she was young, I think. And now she said that once she became a mom and she looked into the eyes of her daughter, she was like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have changed my face because it's like she could see her original face, you know, in her daughter. And she was like, oh, it was. It was a lovely face the way it was, you know, I shouldn't have messed with my container. And so anyway, that's how she kind of learned where she wanted to draw the line on some of the cosmetic fixes that we can avail ourselves of these days.

[Dori Shafrier]

And.

[Elise Hu]

But we do get into the history of double eyelid surgery and how a lot of folks thought it was that. That Asians were seeking it in order to look more white when, you know, flawless. And the research for flawless really complicates that because it turns out a Japanese surgeon had actually invented it in 1897, like, 60 years before this American marine surgeon claims he did it. And because he was operating on sex workers in Korea during the Korean War who were servicing American GIs. And so he's like, I came up with this so I could, quote, unquote, open the eyes of some of these sex workers. And it turns out, no, actually a Japanese doctor had come up with it way earlier.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's so interesting.

[Elise Hu]

And he did it to make Japanese people look more like other Japanese people. They weren't chasing any sort of Western standard. They were chasing the standard that half of all Asian people are born with, which are double eyelids. So it's like, wait, why are you trying to look white? Why wouldn't you want to just be looking like your, you know, Aunt May or whoever who has double eyelids? And so we get into that, which was fun and interesting. Some of y' all probably follow Amy anyway, because I think she's pretty big. She's been. She started as a beauty blogger back in the days of blogs in the early aughts, and then has continued to ride that content creator train into now social video, which is kind of the. The mode of influencing what else is going on. Oh, and we. We went to an Oscar party, an Oscar watch party.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, fun.

[Elise Hu]

Over the weekend. And there were two separate viewing areas. There's like kind of the front house TV and then a back house tv. And so. And I just never parked in the right place because I'm always standing by the food. That's where you'll always find me at a party. I like to. I like. If I'm gonna park anywhere, it's gonna be by the charcuterie, and I'll just be standing there, and you can come and see me instead of me going to you.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's a hot tip.

[Elise Hu]

That's where I'll be. But then Rob found a seat in kind of the back guest house area and I went up to him at some point and he's just like all teary eyed because apparently the In Memoriam segment was very moving because they had like a special tribute to rob reiner. Rachel McAdams did one for Diane Keaton, but the one I'm thinking of. Oh, our gal Catherine o' Hara, too, is the one. Yeah, that one really apparently broke him. And so anyway, there were just like a lot of people to memorialize at last week's ceremony. And so I missed that segment because I think I was eating cheese crisps,

[Dori Shafrier]

but they were probably good cheese crisps.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So I got. I've got that going on for me. I've got that going, which is nice. Yeah. So, you know, holding it down here. I'm going to update the Forever 35 newsletter soon because our project manager, Sammy, has done a bit of a data analysis, a roundup of all Yalls favorite things that we have mentioned on the show or recommended in our gift guides. And so that is in a forthcoming newsletter. Stay tuned.

[Dori Shafrier]

Amazing.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, Elise, I feel like our listeners know that we both love a good hunt.

[Elise Hu]

Like, yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, there's something just so satisfying about sifting through all these, like, website pages until you find the perfect thing, whether it's like a skincare pack or clothing item. And I will say depop never lets us down.

[Elise Hu]

It's such a great place to go to find hard to find items. This branded segment is brought to you by depop where we have both found some of our favorite closet additions lately, from rare vintage to the one that got away after it sold out. We've also been loving the discovery aspect. I know, Dora, you said that you like we're exploring depop and could find really specific items.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

But then also you'd be looking for one thing and then discover something completely different.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, I would look for specific things and then it would tell me about other things that I might like. And I was like, ooh, I actually, I do like these other things. You know, I feel like I have a Depop find of the month.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, do share.

[Dori Shafrier]

I'm wearing them right now. They are pants from Neely Lotan and they're amazing. And also the seller's shop. So you can like click through to the person's shop of whatever you're looking at and see what else they're selling. And I was like, oh, this shop is like, closet goals, you know, like, all of her pieces were so unique. I loved all the brands she was selling and just like, I loved her vibe. Like, I was like, this. This chick has cool style and her stuff was in my size, which was amazing.

[Elise Hu]

And then you can follow them also. Yeah, I, you know, I've talked about Depop on the show in our mini apps because I've been a Depop seller for a bit. My daughter Ava is a Depop seller, but it's only more recently where I've been shopping for Depop items myself.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And something that I'm super into because we are kind of each sharing a find of the month is that Vintage Coach, which is said to be made in a higher quality than like, more new era modern Coach. Vintage Coach is very big again. And I really love the quality of their older leather bags from like the aughts and the 90s. And there's a lot of those options on Depop. So I just recently found a vintage Coach clutch that's in pink. Yeah. I think I sent you a photo.

[Dori Shafrier]

It's super cute.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And then I can wear it with like a jumpsuit or I can dress it down too. It's. It's been an awesome little handbag to carry. Especially, like, recently. I was just in the desert and had kind of just a white dress on and I needed a pop of color. It was perfect for that.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, I love that you got an accessory too, because I know I have become really picky about what I actually, like, let take up space in my closet.

[Elise Hu]

It.

[Dori Shafrier]

Because it's kind of like, am I going to wear this consistently or is it just more stuff that is taking up space? Yeah, no, exactly. And these pants, I mean, I. I've worn them multiple times a week since I got them. They're literally the perfect pants. I also got this great sweatshirt. I was wearing it the other day and you're like, oh, that's a cute sweatshirt. And it was.

[Elise Hu]

I. Yeah, it was the sweatshirt.

[Dori Shafrier]

One of the sweatshirts I got on Depop, it was this cute farm Rio Adidas collab that I just kind of missed when it came. And like, now you can't, you know, you can't buy it new. So I was so excited to find it on Depop. And Elise, you're not the only one who has complimented it. It's like this great pop of color. So I was so excited to find it.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. And then on the flip side, I know this isn't the only Point of Depop, but I also love being a seller on there because getting rid of stuff feels sort of cathartic. But it's not just like I'm putting things into trash bags. I'm actually taking items that I have really loved, pre loved or had sentimental value to me, but I have either outgrown or I don't have space for that particular item anymore or piece of clothing. And then I know that when I sell on depop too that it's going to somebody who really loves it. Yeah, it's often like we go through a negotiation also. You know, you put up your item at a certain price and you can offer it at a discount or people can offer make an offer to you. And so you know that like somebody who's looking for whatever you have is also going to like take good care of it or totally, very intentionally seeking it out.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And so I've gotten to really a enjoy that somebody else is going to find a second life, you know, with a product of mine. But also it's lovely to connect with people while rehoming some of these older pieces of mine.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, you know, it's gonna like live on. The other thing that I heard about Depop and maybe you can confirm this but that there are no seller fees.

[Elise Hu]

That's right, there's no seller fees. The payouts come very quickly. Once I've done the harder work of the closet clean out, I just head to Depop and I can list everything. I can list everything pretty easily and quickly just on my phone. With the app the process is simple and it's always so rewarding to see someone buy a piece that I loved. And lately Dor, I'm actually surprised I've talked about this with Rob's clothing. Like he has these vintage tees that I didn't know had value on Depop but actually have a lot of value. And so that's so cool. I just think it's rewarding, you know, that somebody can find a piece and I then I know that it's going to somebody who's going to value it as much as either I did or somebody in my family did.

[Dori Shafrier]

Totally. So you can download the Depop app and list your first item in seconds. It's so easy and a great way to make money easily with no selling fees. Thank you depop for making this branded segment possible. Well, should we introduce our guest?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, let's not delay.

[Dori Shafrier]

Marisa Renee Lee is the award winning and best selling author of Grief is Love and her new book is waiting for dawn and it reflects on her experiences with chronic illness and grief, offering solace to folks living with all kinds of uncertainty. She describes herself as a longtime rabble rouser of social healing and equity and she was previously a Deputy Director in the Obama White House and she is now CEO of Beacon Advisors, a social impact consulting firm. And she lives with her husband and son in New York and her book is out on April 7th. So pre order it now, head to your local bookstore and tell them you want to read it. And yeah, it's really good. It's really thoughtful and a great book. So all right. And before we get to Marissa, just a reminder that you can Visit our website forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram Forever35 podcast. You can join our patreon at patreon.com/forever35 shop our favorite products at Shopmy US/forever35 and you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcastmail.com and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Dori Shafrier]

I am really feeling that the busy season has started. I don't know about you Elise, yes, but I think what's really important is that we need to remember to put a little bit of ourselves first too. And we can do that with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, it's Peloton's most elevated equipment with real time guidance and endless ways to move alone or with your favorite instructors. It's cross training reimagined with features designed to help you reach your goals effortlessly and personally. I know that having a plan helps me stay motivated. Knowing that I have a certain class on a certain day, even at a certain time, helps me move forward with my fitness goals. Even if I don't really want to show up on that certain day or certain time.

[Elise Hu]

I get it. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Peloton IQ provides just that with their personalized plans and recommendations. This can include weekly recommended classes led by instructors who match your mood, vibe and personality. Not to mention the variety and workouts available. Go on a 45 minute run on the tread plus or a 5 minute stretch off of it with one smooth spin of that swivel screen. It offers endless ways to train for a well rounded routine. No matter how busy you are, let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training tread [e-mail] if you're ready to make home

[Elise Hu]

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[Dori Shafrier]

Marissa Renee Lee welcome back to Forever35.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Thank you for having me. This is great.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, it's great to have you back. Well, as you know because you have been on the show before, we always start by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So is there something you are doing right now that you would consider self care?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes, this is self care and like a little bit long Covid recovery. I've gotten deep into breath work. Like I have just gone like way into the deep end on all things breathing exercises. It ended up healing my asthma that I got as a part of the long Covid. Yeah, within about six months I'm in this program, it's an app called MioHealth and they are heavily focused on anyone who has any condition that impacts the nervous system and they create like all of these different breathing techniques and you know, lengths of time that you breathe for as a part of recovery and it's been a game changer. So I highly recommend, you know, even if you only have five minutes to yourself, just doing some basic diaphragmatic breathing, you feel better and a little bit more human.

[Elise Hu]

This is such a synchronicity that you brought this up because I have been suffering from asthma all week.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Oh my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

It's related to some sort of viral respiratory infection, but I have allergy related asthma anyway so I have kind of asthma as an underlying condition that can crop up every once in a while. But I went to the doctor and she was like, take a deep breath. And I thought I did. And she's like, no, take a deep breath.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah, yeah, that, like, that's what happened to me. I went to the doctors once and she said, the air is not circulating properly in your lungs. Like, they are so tight. I was like, I don't even know what that means.

[Elise Hu]

I don't know what that means.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

I'm good.

[Elise Hu]

She said I was so tight. Yeah. She's like, you're so tight. You're so. I'm like, what does that mean? Just, I can't breathe. Can you help me?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Oh, but yeah, it takes time, but I swear it works. I will send the information when we're done recording this episode because it has helped a ton.

[Elise Hu]

Amazing. Well, my next question was going to be, how are you doing and how are you feeling these days? Because those who have read the book which is about to come out will know that you have really been through it with not only prolonged illness, but tragedy in your family.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah, it's been. It's been an interesting couple of years. More challenging than I think I ever could have imagined. I got Covid for the first time in April of 2024. And I'll be honest, ladies, I genuinely thought I was one of those people that was just never going to get Covid. You know, we all know somebody who's in that bucket, right? I thought I was in that bucket. You know, I went on book tour for my first book. I had a kid in school. Both he and my husband had had Covid multip. And you know, he's my baby, so of course I was taking care of him and I was fine throughout. And then it hit me and it hasn't fully left. I am doing much better now. But, you know, in the beginning it was everything from, you know, not being able to breathe. Like at one point, in addition to the asthma and like my lungs being just completely blocked and not functioning properly, my larynx was blocked over 70%. So, like I really was not breathing properly at all. I had like horrible chest pain, like unlike anything I had ever experienced. You know, like I would be driving my kid to school and it would feel like that, like crazy heart pounding, anxiety at the top of a roller coaster. And this is just, you know, the 10 minute ride to daycare. Being on my feet was awful because a part of my long Covid is dysautonomia and so I just have really poor circulation. You'll see me drinking throughout this episode. It's electrolytes all day long. I couldn't like, stand long enough to take a shower some days. Like, it was that extreme. And so the fact that, you know, now I'm in a place where I can have this conversation with you all and, and enjoy it and not have it feel like this awful, labor intensive thing is just, I mean, it's an enormous blessing.

[Dori Shafrier]

What would you advise people who think that they may have long Covid? Because I feel like this is a very, like, misunderstood.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

Illness.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

It's also a very politicized illness. You know, like there are people who still think that, you know, Covid was some sort of fabricated thing. And so long Covid couldn't possibly be real. Like, it couldn't possibly exist. Wow. And I wish that were the case, but like, it's real, unfortunately. And so, you know, my, my number one piece of advice, if someone is listening and they think that they have long Covid, you know, I want them to listen to their instincts because we, especially women, you know, we are so good at ignoring and downplaying our instincts and listening to other people instead of listening to our bodies. And I, I don't, I don't want you to do that. Like, I want you to believe yourself and do whatever you have to do to find doctors who believe you and support you. Because there are a lot of really good doctors out there. There's a lot of really good research that's continuing to emerge. And I just, I don't want people to just stay stuck in a horrible, like, suffering place because they don't believe themselves or because other people don't believe them.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, we are here to talk about your new book which is called Waiting for Dawn Living with Uncertainty and kind of similar to Elise in the sense of like, this is a, this is an interesting moment for, for you to be talking about, you know, respiratory illnesses for her. It was an interesting moment for me to be talking about uncertainty because I do feel like uncertainty is something that I really struggle with. What was the origin of this book? Why did you want to write it? And what do you kind of hope people take away from it?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah. So this is not the book that I thought I was going to write a couple of years ago. I'm told that happens to writers all the time. I thought I was going to write a book about, you know, showing up when something challenging happens to someone you love. And it started out as my, my husband's mother, my mother in law, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer right before Grief Is Love. My first book came out and my mom died from stage four breast cancer. So there was both the, you know, wanting to show up for him and like, be a source of support for my extended family, and then also the like sort of trauma craziness of, oh my gosh, like, you know, he's going through the worst thing that ever happened to me. Like, this is a little bit too much. And as we were going through that, my cousin, younger, much younger cousin, she went missing and it turned out she had been murdered by an abusive partner. And so that was like this whole other layer of unimaginable tragedy, trauma, violence, you know, all, all these things that I had never experienced before. And then a couple months later I get Covid and it turns into long Covid and suddenly it's like, okay, like what, what is the book that I'm writing? Am I even going to be strong enough to write a book? You know, what, what is happening to my life right now? And my editor said, I want you to sit down and write about what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. Like, what is it like to be sick all the time, every day, wake up in pain? And so I started writing and, you know, within a couple of days had 10,000 words and quickly realized, oh, these are chapters. And what I'm writing about isn't what it's like to be sick, it's what it's like to be stuck in some sort of painful place with, you know, no clear ending. And how do you live? Well, in the middle of that, you know, even though I was sick and weak and in pain, I was still going to go to like my fun friend's birthday party. You know, I was still going to find a way to write this book. I was still going to find a way to like, be the best mom to my 4 year old son, Bennett. I was definite still going to go to the Beyonce concert. You know, like, there were just things that I refused to let go of. And so it became like, you know, what does it look like to live a full and at times even joyful and meaningful life while dealing with an ongoing hardship. And, you know, I think it can be job loss, divorce, infertility, obviously serious illness. Like, it can be so many different things. It could also be living in a world where every time you turn around there is some new fresh horror, like, welcome to 2026 in America. And so I want people to take away, like some guidance for how to do it. And it's not just here's my story and like, step by step, how I think you should do it. It's more of a compass that is informed by both my story and research around uncertainty and, you know, dealing with the hardship and trauma and grief.

[Elise Hu]

I want to get to the lessons and the takeaways for folks. But before that, you write about a concept called gray grief. Tell us what that is and how you learn to cope with it.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes. So in my first book, Grief is Love, I was like, I need to redefine grief. I don't think we're thinking about it correctly. And so I redefined it as the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss. And, and with great grief. And, you know, this period of uncertainty that I was living through, it was like, oh, what happens when, like, the loss is the life that you knew? You know, like, what, what does that look like? How do we define that? And I realized that great grief is the term for, you know, and seemingly unending period of uncertainty. You know, I thought about not only myself, but friends who are acting as caregivers for elder relatives. I thought about my friend Brian and his wife Sandra. When Brian was 38 or 39, they had just had their second child and he was diagnosed with ALS. And they are like, figuring out how to live in the middle of that. And so I think of uncertainty as the persistent feeling of stress or overwhelm related to the unknown. And you're not in charge. Like, you don't get to decide when this thing is over. You don't get to decide when it ends. The only thing that you have agency over is how you move through it. So, yeah, it's, it's not necessarily fun, but I promise if you read the book, you will at least laugh for you.

[Dori Shafrier]

What does this look like on a day to day basis? Does this go back to the, you know, the breathing exercises that you were talking about in the beginning of, of our chat or, you know, what does this look like?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

No, that's, that's a great question. So the breathing exercises are part of it because I find that, that, you know, that kind of like meditative work helps me to figure out what do I need today to live well, yeah, you know, like, I had a moment last week where I was like, I just feel like I haven't had a lot of joy recently. You know, between the grind of the book promotion and oh my God, in the Northeast, our kids have been out of school so much this winter. It is making My head explode a little bit. And then, you know, everyone in our house was. Was sick at Christmas with the flu. And then I have an infection on top of the long Covid. And I was just like, I need to do something fun. That's just for me. And so I committed to sitting down and watching a couple of episodes of Bridgerton. And then another day I got into. Oh, my gosh, it was so good. And the month before that, it was obviously heated rivalry because I wasn't going to this big cultural moment. Like, you know, I'm that insane. And then, like, a couple weeks before that, I. I've gotten into watercolors, and. And I. I have no actual skill as an artist, to be clear, but it's just so peaceful to, like, play with paints and water and color and, you know, just do fun little things. So it's like those kinds of small indulgences that I can still handle in a sick body. Just taking a little bit of time out really does make a difference when you're dealing with something hard.

[Dori Shafrier]

You just, like, unlocked a memory for me, which is that during COVID you know, when we, like, in the very beginning, like, the real early days of lockdown, I started doing paint by number kits.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Oh, nice.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah. And it was so relaxing. It was so satisfying to finish a peace by number. And when you said that, I think it sounds like what you're doing with watercolors is a little bit more creative, but I am not, like, an artistic person, so. So the. Just, you know, paint by numbers was sort of what I could handle on a creative, artistic level, but it was so satisfying. And I love that idea of, you know, doing something like that. That is sort of meditative in and of itself.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, I'm like, oh, I should. I should go back to that. So thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Seriously, as adults, in a period of uncertainty.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

And, like, as adults, we don't take out enough time for play. Like, almost everything that we do is tied to some specific outcome, whether it's caregiving for children or, you know, work milestones or whatever, but just having, you know, taking a half an hour, an hour a week to do something that's just, like, fun and cool. The other one that I started doing, and this was when the long Covid was worse, and I was really having a hard time with screens, but was also having a hard time putting my phone down. I spent 30 bucks on this potholder making kit. It's like a weaving loom. And the potholders work really well. You know, it takes me, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes to make a potholder that I can then actually use in my kitchen or like or give

[Elise Hu]

it as a gift. Yeah, exactly. I love a handmade gift.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

So fun.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

I get it.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

It.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

It strikes me that this relates to a list that you made in your phone that you write about in your book called the 100. So describe that for us and what you feel like you got out of it.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah. Okay. First of all, I have to confess, I think I might still be in the 90s. I don't know if I'm not there yet.

[Elise Hu]

Okay, okay.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

I'm like, fool. This disclosure I always tell on myself. So the 100 came out of a realization that, like, I am not good at putting myself first. I was a caregiver as a child. My mom first got sick when I was 13. I helped take care of her until she died when I was 25. And then, you know, a couple years later, I learn of my infertility and then spend a lot of time caring for my body, but like, solely with the goal of having a baby, you know, not really caring for my body. And so I just, I never really learned how to prioritize Marissa without like lengthy explanations behind it. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself a list because I'm also a controlling and like, list loving person. I was like, I'm gonna put, you know, in the notes section of my iPhone. I'm gonna call it the 100. And I'm gonna make myself get to 100. Things that I do that are, can be things that I say no to as well. You know, like, it doesn't just have to be like, oh, I'm going to do the potholders or the painting. It can be like, no, I really don't want to do like whatever that thing is. Like, I know that that's going to be pushing myself too hard and not in the way that like, you know, I pushed my body hard when I went to the Cowboy Carter concert, but I didn't regret it. Like, it was amazing. So that's, that is what it is like. And when you are in these, these, these periods of uncertainty that force you to learn how to live differently, having some sort of accountability around it. Like, I just Found it very helpful to know that, oh, there's this thing on my phone and like I have to get better. And I feel like part of why I haven't finished it is because it's become more of a natural habit to just listen to myself more.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And then I like how you count things that you say no to as items on the list as well.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Hell yeah. Again, especially as women. Like, yeah, we are not good at that. And there's nothing to apologize for. Like, you're allowed to just say no. It's okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

You're allowed to just say no. No is a complete sentence.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Exactly, exactly. You can say no, thank you.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

But yeah, you're allowed.

[Dori Shafrier]

Before we started recording, you mentioned that you're trying a new treatment for your long Covid and I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that's going. Yeah. If you could just share.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Happy to share. So just to start, for the last year and a half or so, maybe a little bit longer, I have been on the sort of original Long Covid treatment called low dose naltrexone that has been hugely helpful. And I just want people to know that as you know, if they're thinking that they might have long Covid and somebody mentions it, like, it has absolutely helped me. But I felt like these last few months I was just kind of hitting a wall. I had some infections in November, then I had the flu in December, then I get sick again in February. And it's just, it's hard being a sick person and also having a small child who brings germs and coughs in your mouth, you know, like, it's disgusting. And so the last time I saw my doctor a couple of months weeks ago, she mentioned that there is a new treatment that she is having tremendous success with with her patients. Like she is as optimistic about this treatment as she is about the naltrexone. It's called tirzepatide was what she said to me. And I was like, I don't know what that is or how to spell it. And then she said it's zepbound. You know, it is one of the newer GLP1s and it's administered in a modified like much lower dose. And because way Long Covid works and how generally speaking, it causes a lot of inflammation in the body, the anti inflammatory properties of the GLP1s work to reduce that inflammation and people are just feeling much better. And she was like, you know, I get my feeling stuck. I understand. Yeah. She's like, I Agree with you if you want to try it. I was like, if I want to try it. I was like, you know I want to try it. Come on, you know me by now, doc. Like sign me up, like, what do I need to do? The only thing for me personally, I knew I couldn't give myself a shot. I'm not great with the needle stuff. Thankfully I live with a man who is also a public health professor and teaches people how to draw blood and give shots. And so my husband, once a week, it's only been two weeks, I get my third dose today actually, he gives me the shot while our four year old watches in horror. And it's totally fine. Like in my case, the only, the only noticeable side effect, if you can even call it that, is right after it's injected it feels a little bit like a bee sting and I just put some ice on it. Ten minutes later it's fine and I just keep it moving. So I am incredibly grateful. So far it's been like an amazing experience and I felt a difference, honestly, within like 48 hours. Like which I was like, is this possible? Have I tricked myself? And she was like, no. Like if it is going to work, generally speaking you feel the effects pretty quickly.

[Elise Hu]

Well, we had to find some sort of solution because I know you had been grappling with that for the last few years.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I want to ask you because you've been reflecting on this and we are in such a time of uncertainty. Lord, what does comfort mean to you?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Ah, that's a good question. I don't think the first thing that came up for me is this, like I don't think comfort means completely ignoring all of these external stressors and sources of uncertainty in our world. You know, like a week and a half ago we woke up and we're in a war. And then, you know, today before I hopped on, I saw about something about like a mass shooting in Detroit at a temple. You know, it's just like it is, it is a non stop barrage. And so I think comfort is about acknowledging those things, giving yourself space to feel empathy and compassion for the people who are most directly impacted and then also holding some empathy and compassion for yourself. So like, while I don't think we should completely ignore and shut out these various, you know, the multitude of horrors that are taking place in the world, we can't be doom scrolling 247 because that doesn't actually solve or help anything or anyone. And so figuring out what your boundaries are and how to take care of yourself in These moments of collective grief and uncertainty I think is really important. And so what that looks like for me, I actually recently for my birthday in January, I bought myself this thing called the brick. Have you heard about this app for your phone? Yes, yes. And so for folks who don't know, it's like it. I mean, it's like a little square magnet that sits on my fridge and I have it set up so that numerous apps are just not allowed to be accessed on my phone when my phone is in brick mode. You know, you hold your phone up, scan it, it goes into brick mode and it becomes more of like just a phone versus like this endless stream of information. And that has been really helpful because it's like, you know, figure out what's happening in the world, how you feel about it, how you can maybe help, and then you kind of just have to put it down. Especially when there are other people that you're caring for in your house, in your family, when you know you're someone like me who's having to care for yourself extra.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

And then once I've bricked like I can hold space for the breathing exercises, for, you know, taking a bath, for taking a nap, like doing those comforting things. Because something that I think is important for people to recognize is stress accumulates and the things that are happening in the world, they will add to whatever stress you are already feeling or experiencing in your personal life. And so making sure you figure out what, what boundaries look like, need to look like for you and what comfort looks like for you. I just, I think it's really important.

[Elise Hu]

When you take baths, do you have any like go to products that you love?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes, I get it from Amazon. So I actually shifted from Epsom salts to magnesium flakes because magnesium has a lot of, a lot of good like anti inflammatory properties. I mean I'm obsessed with anti inflammation because of all Covid and. And when you dump them into the tub, like you feel more like you're floating. Like it's like when you're. I don't know if you've ever been to like the Dead Sea and like it's so salinated. Like the magnesium has that effect much faster than like bath salts do. I found. So I buy these like ancient magnesium flakes off of Amazon and that's been super helpful. Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

I wanted to bring up one chapter of your book that that again like really resonated with me and it's the one about asking for help. Yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit about that.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Let's do it. Let's do it.

[Dori Shafrier]

How. How is asking for help connected with all of this stuff about uncertainty? And why is it important?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

We live in a culture that prizes individualism, individual effort, you know, pull yourself up by yourself, bootstraps. Like, I did this hard thing so you can do it too. Like, blah. Every man, woman for themselves. Like, all that kind of nonsense. And like, it's just ridiculous. Like, it's not real. Human beings evolved in community for a reason. Like, this is how we are meant to be. This is how we are meant to live. It's what's best for us. It's what's best for our kids. It reduces stress, reduces isolation. You know, there's just so many things about it. And so I hate that we think that, that when life is hard or uncertain in some way, that we're meant to just figure it out for ourselves. Like, you, you can't do that. Well, like, you literally can't agree. And so whether the help is free or paid, like you need help when these things happen. You know, I think about someone I'm really close with, went through a very, very messy divorce at the start of the pandemic.

[Dori Shafrier]

And.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

And I think about if she didn't ask for help from family, you know, from the therapist, from people, you know, who were connected to her kids, like, just how much harder it would have been. And I think about when, when my husband and I were navigating the uncertainty of all of the fertility stuff, like, if we didn't have help help through that, like, it would have been so much more miserable, especially the losses, like, it would have been devastating. And then, you know, in our case, we ended up at the end pursuing adoption. And even having support in that process was really helpful because, you know, it's this long, drawn out thing. You get this checklist that's got like 30 impossible things on it, like FBI background checks, like, and you're like, oh my God, this is crazy. And so to just have people even that you can just complain to in the midst of that is really helpful. So, yeah, I am, I am very anti going it alone because I just, I just don't think it works. Like a recent example, I decided in the fall of 2024 that I was going to be open about the fact that I had long Covid. You know, I knew people were weird about it and I was like, that's dumb. Like, this is real and it sucks. And so I shared about it on Instagram and in my newsletter and within about two hours I had an Email from this woman who was following me on Instagram because of my writing on grief. And that was helpful to her in her experience with long Covid. Like, she got Covid in 2020.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

And was, like, basically at the tail end of her, like, healing and recovery process. And she was like, like, you know, if I can be of help to you, you know, this is the name of my doctor. Like, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm going to be seeing this doctor within the next two weeks. And that woman became my doctor. Like, and that's like. And we're now, like, good friends. And so I just. I don't want people to go it alone. And I think some of it is usually connected to shame and, like, feeling like, you know, what's going on with me is, like, weird, or people are going to judge me about it or whatever. It's just, like, just ignore those people.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

They don't matter that much.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely. And I feel like all of my relationships and my friendships and whatnot are so deepened by reaching out and asking for help, you know?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

All right, so we promised we were going to get to this. What do you feel like you learned? What are the big takeaways after writing this book and this exercise in living with uncertainty?

[Marissa Renee Lee]

So one of the big ones, and this is. This is still a tough pill to swallow, because I. I wish it wasn't the case, but there are some things that just have to be endured. Like. Like, not everything has a quick or immediate fix to it, and that sucks. But that's just the truth. And so figuring out how to. How to endure when you are, like, faced with one of those types of problems is. It's. It's hard, but I think that's the only way through it. Another one, and this one's more of a work in progress because I don't think anybody will ever describe me as a patient person. I am definitely a more patient person than I was a couple of years ago.

[Dori Shafrier]

Go.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

I also learned a lot, and I was surprised by how much learning I had to do in this space. Surprised and honestly a little bit embarrassed by how deeply committed I was to ableism and how much I didn't understand about disability and, like, the experiences of people who are disabled. And I'm. I'm like, you know, a little bit embarrassed by it still, because, you know, my mom was disabled from the time I was 13. And so I thought, you know, I thought I was good. Like, I thought I had a really deep understanding. But until it's your body that doesn't work. It just, it's. It's a completely different experience. And I will say, you know, the last one, and this is the last chapter in the book is probably just around hope and that, that, you know, hope isn't this light, airy, nebulous thing that's similar to optimism. Like hope is a very real thing that can drive us forward to lasting change if we remain committed to it. And so figuring out what hope looks like for you and how to define that when you're dealing with a period of uncertainty is very important.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely. I love that notion of hope as a verbal, like as an action, you know.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes, yes.

[Elise Hu]

Marissa, this is fantastic. Where can folks find you? You mentioned your substack.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Yes, substack is called holding. Both. It's all about grief, joy and everything in between. Online I am Marissa Renee Leigh everywhere and Waiting for Dawn is available everywhere. Books are sold.

[Dori Shafrier]

Thank you so much. It was great to see you and get to chat with you again. Thank you.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

This was so fun.

[Dori Shafrier]

Well, it was great to get to talk to Marissa again. She was so lovely. Elise, last week you were going to do some healing because you were sick and you seem better.

[Elise Hu]

I am on the mend. I'm thankfully on the mend and I can tell because I'm sleeping better. Last week I really felt like I was in a week long hangover and it's true. So that they true what they say about the longitudinal studies that they've done on truckers who've had cumulative sleep loss. It's basically the same as a hangover, like just having alcohol in your system. And so I was really having a hard time last week and very cranky and now I feel like me again, a lot more like me again. And so that's wonderful. And this week because I have some soreness probably because I was. Was just laying down so much and coughing. Yeah, I would like to get a massage or another massage. I recently got one but yeah, I got a gift certificate. I got two spa gift certificates from different friends for my birthday in February. And so I'm going to try and

[Marissa Renee Lee]

use those

[Elise Hu]

hopefully in the next week when I get back and I will report back and let you know.

[Dori Shafrier]

Sounds great.

[Elise Hu]

Great. Yeah. What about you? What was your intention and what are you going to intend?

[Dori Shafrier]

So my intention last week was to continue the office decluttering and we, we did do a little office decluttering but as I mentioned at the top of the show, the big decluttering this week was the hallway closet which I am so happy About. And then this week I have. I'm playing in a tennis match on Saturday that is. It is a playoff match for the team I'm on. That is like a level above where I like where I'm rated. There are just like not enough people available to play. So this other woman and I are playing in this playoff match. So like the best people of a level above.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, okay. So that. You know what? I feel like it might be tricky, right?

[Dori Shafrier]

I think it's going to be tricky. And my intention is to just, just like go in and have fun and not worry about.

[Elise Hu]

You gotta. Alyssa Lou. It you just be like, I live for struggle. I love struggle.

[Dori Shafrier]

Exactly. So that is, you know, I get so caught up in like, oh, I gotta win and I have to like, I don't want to let my partner down and you know, all these things. And I just want to go in with just like a chill attitude about it. So that is my intention for this week and I will report back on how it went.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Great.

[Elise Hu]

Awesome.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay, thanks everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, acast. Thanks everyone.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Bye. I am really feeling that the busy season has started. I don't know about you, Elise.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dori Shafrier]

But I think what's really important is that we need to remember to put a little bit of ourselves first too. And we can do that with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus. Powered by Peloton iq, it's Peloton's most elevated equipment with real time guidance and endless ways to move alone or with your favorite instructors. It's cross training reimagined with features designed to help you reach your goals effortlessly and personally. I know that having a plan helps me stay motivated. Knowing that I have a certain class on a certain day, even at a certain time, time helps me move forward with my fitness goals. Even if I don't really want to show up on that certain day or certain time.

[Elise Hu]

I get it. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Peloton IQ provides just that with their personalized plans and recommendations. This can include weekly recommended classes led by instructors who match your mood, vibe and personality. Not to mention the variety and workouts available. Go on a 45 minute run on the tread plus or a 5 minute stretch off of it with one smooth spin of that swivel screen. It offers endless ways to train for a well rounded routine. No matter how busy you are, are let yourself run lift, sculpt, push, and go explore the new peloton cross training tread. [e-mail].

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Spring Fest means more sun, more fun, and more free at Lowe's. Keep your yard in line with an additional free EGO 56 volt battery when

[Elise Hu]

you buy a select Ego mower, trimmer or blower.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Plus, keep landscaping fresh with Stay Green.

[Elise Hu]

1 cubic foot garden soil 5 bags for $10.

[Marissa Renee Lee]

Our best lineup is here at Lowe's,

[Dori Shafrier]

valid through 4A while supplies last selection varies by location.

[Elise Hu]

Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.