Forever35 Podcast – Episode 394: "Life, Joy, and Meaning in Uncertain Times with Marisa Renee Lee"

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Marisa Renee Lee
Date: March 23, 2026

Overview

This episode explores how to find comfort, joy, and meaning amid personal and societal uncertainty. Doree and Elise welcome back Marisa Renee Lee, author of "Grief is Love" and the forthcoming "Waiting for Dawn," to talk about living with chronic illness, enduring grief, and navigating an unpredictable world. By sharing personal stories, practical self-care tips, and reflections from her own journey through long Covid and loss, Marisa offers listeners candid, research-informed advice on enduring hardship and cultivating hope.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Catch-Up: Decluttering, Beauty Standards, and Joy in Small Things

• Doree shares a triumph in reorganizing her hallway closet. She talks about the satisfaction of decluttering and how sharing before-and-after photos is a form of joy among friends.

  • Notable Quote:
    • "I have a big update. ... The hallway closet is one of those like sliding door, like reach-in closets. And it had literally just become a repository of randomness and like stacks of things." — Doree [03:22]

• Elise discusses her conversation with beauty influencer Amy Chang about Asian beauty standards, double eyelid surgery, and how becoming a mother reshaped Amy's view on cosmetic changes.

  • Notable Insight:
    • The history of double eyelid surgery is more nuanced than often portrayed; its origins are not only about western beauty ideals. [08:14–08:58]

Guest Introduction: Marisa Renee Lee

• Marisa is an expert in grief, chronic illness, and social healing, drawing both on personal experience and public service. Her new book "Waiting for Dawn" reflects on coping with ongoing uncertainty. [18:00+]

Main Interview with Marisa Renee Lee

Self-Care Through Breathwork and Chronic Illness

[22:11–26:23]

• Current Self-Care: Marisa uses structured breathwork—via the MioHealth app—to manage asthma developed during long Covid:
  • "I've gotten deep into breathwork. It ended up healing my asthma that I got as a part of the long Covid." — Marisa [22:28]
• Elise connects, mentioning her own asthma flare and the struggle to breathe deeply.
• Marisa stresses trusting your instincts if you suspect you have long Covid, and advocates for finding doctors who listen:
  • "Listen to your instincts... I don't want people to just stay stuck in a horrible, suffering place because they don't believe themselves or because other people don't believe them." — Marisa [26:35]

Navigating Uncertainty and "Gray Grief"

[27:39–33:05]

• Origin of "Waiting for Dawn": The book was initially meant to help people support others during crisis, but Marisa’s own tumultuous period—her mother-in-law’s cancer, a cousin’s murder, and her own long Covid—shifted the focus to living through enduring uncertainty.
• Definition: Introduces "gray grief" as grief for a life forever altered, and the “persistent feeling of stress or overwhelm related to the unknown.”
  • "The only thing you have agency over is how you move through it." — Marisa [32:20]
• Marisa’s writing offers a “compass” for navigating prolonged hardship by blending research with lived experience.

Day-to-Day Living with Uncertainty: Coping Tools & Play

[33:17–36:44]

• Tangible Practices: Marisa leans on small, joyful activities—watching Bridgerton, watercolor painting, potholder weaving—to bring peace during ongoing hardship.
  • "It’s those kinds of small indulgences that I can still handle in a sick body... just taking a little bit of time out really does make a difference." — Marisa [34:50]
• Doree recalls rediscovering paint-by-number kits during early lockdown, echoing the therapeutic value of low-stakes creativity.

The "100 List": Learning to Prioritize Yourself

[39:36–41:54]

• Marisa describes making a list of 100 things—acts of self-care, boundaries set, or things she says no to—to practice prioritizing herself for the first time.
  • "I never really learned how to prioritize Marisa without lengthy explanations. ... The 100 came out of a realization that, like, I am not good at putting myself first." — Marisa [39:58]
• Both hosts and Marisa emphasize the importance (especially for women) of celebrating both doing new things and declining requests when needed.
  • "No is a complete sentence." — Doree [42:06]

New Treatments and The Challenge of Chronic Illness

[42:30–45:28]

• Marisa details her ongoing long Covid treatment:
  • Low-dose naltrexone offers some benefit.
  • She is now trying tirzepatide (Zepbound), a GLP-1 drug at low doses for its anti-inflammatory effects, and reports significant improvement.
  • Her husband administers the weekly injection.
  • "I felt a difference, honestly, within 48 hours... if it is going to work, generally speaking you feel the effects pretty quickly." — Marisa [44:11–44:26]

Finding Comfort Amid World Chaos & Setting Boundaries

[45:39–48:37]

• Comfort is not about ignoring the world’s troubles, but about processing them compassionately and setting boundaries—including with your phone (she uses the "Brick" app to reduce doomscrolling):

  • "I think comfort is about acknowledging those things, giving yourself space to feel empathy and compassion for the people who are most directly impacted, and then also holding some empathy and compassion for yourself." — Marisa [45:49]
  • "Making sure you figure out what boundaries need to look like for you, and what comfort looks like for you, I just, I think it's really important." — Marisa [48:37]

• Elise asks for bath product recommendations; Marisa suggests magnesium flakes for their anti-inflammatory and soothing properties. [49:41]

Asking for Help: Rejecting Isolation

[49:52–53:26]

• Marisa challenges the myth of self-sufficiency:
  • "We live in a culture that prizes individualism... and it's just ridiculous. Like, it's not real. Human beings evolved in community for a reason. This is how we are meant to live." — Marisa [49:52]
• Shares how being open about long Covid led to critical support and new friendships.
  • "Within about two hours I had an email... she said, if I can be of help to you... And that woman became my doctor." — Marisa [52:34]

Lessons Learned: Endurance, Patience, Confronting Ableism, and Redefining Hope

[53:39–55:58]

• Acceptance: Some challenges must simply be endured.
• Patience: Marisa notes she’s learned much about waiting without clear answers.
• Confronting Ableism: Personal experience with disability deepened her perspective on accessibility and inclusion.
  • "I'm surprised and honestly a little bit embarrassed by how deeply committed I was to ableism and how much I didn't understand about disability and... the experiences of people who are disabled." — Marisa [54:31]
• Hope as Action: She reframes hope as an active commitment to pursue joy and meaning, not passive optimism.
  • "Hope isn't this light, airy, nebulous thing that's similar to optimism. Hope is a very real thing that can drive us forward to lasting change if we remain committed to it." — Marisa [55:53]

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Living in Chaos

• "Unprecedented now precedented times. Everything's unprecedented until it becomes precedented." — Elise [03:02]

On Setting Boundaries with Technology

• "I recently... bought myself this thing called The Brick... when my phone is in brick mode and it becomes more of just a phone versus like this endless stream of information." — Marisa [47:03]

On the Value of Joyful Distraction

• "As adults, we don't take out enough time for play... but just having, you know, taking a half an hour, an hour a week to do something that's just fun and cool." — Marisa [35:53]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [22:11] Marisa’s Self-Care: Breathwork and Long Covid Recovery
• [26:23] Advice for Those with Long Covid
• [27:39] Origin and Themes of "Waiting for Dawn"
• [31:23] "Gray Grief" and Coping with Unending Uncertainty
• [33:17] Everyday Practices and Small Joys
• [39:36] The "100 List": Prioritizing Yourself
• [42:30] New Treatment for Long Covid
• [45:39] Defining Comfort and Setting Boundaries
• [49:41] Bath Rituals: Magnesium Flakes
• [49:52] Asking for Help vs. Rugged Individualism
• [53:39] Marisa’s Key Lessons and Takeaways

Useful Links

• Marisa Renee Lee: Website/Substack ("Holding Both")
• "Waiting for Dawn": Available everywhere books are sold (as of April 7, 2026)

Final Thoughts

This episode is a reflective, compassionate, and practical exploration of how to endure and even thrive amid ongoing uncertainty. Through honest self-disclosure, concrete rituals, and a strong emphasis on community and self-kindness, Marisa and the hosts provide comfort and solidarity to anyone facing difficult, drawn-out challenges.

(For product mentions, bath salts, and all referenced resources, visit Forever35Podcast.com)