Episode 395: Who You Are Without All The Stuff with Hayley DeRoche

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Episode 395: Who You Are Without All The Stuff with Hayley DeRoche

Date: March 30, 2026
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Hayley DeRoche (aka Sad Beige)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the interplay between self-care, consumerism, and identity, focusing on how the aesthetics and pressures of parenting—and life in general—are shaped by the market, the algorithm, and social expectations. Guest Hayley DeRoche (online as Sad Beige), humorist, poet, and new author of The Sad Beige Parent Handbook, joins Doree to discuss her viral social satire, the joy of analog connection, and questioning who we are outside of what we own or perform. The conversation ranges widely, from the pressures of parenting in the social media age, to detangling personal worth from consumer aesthetics, to resisting algorithm-driven living—and reclaiming joy in community and simple rituals.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Self-Care Rituals: Poetry as Nourishment

• [11:14] Hayley shares her nightly ritual of writing a poem before bed:
  • “It kind of forces me to think creatively before I go to bed. It’s just kind of…been this really freeing practice. And like, you know, if I forget one night, it’s fine, but, but it’s been really good for me.” — Hayley DeRoche [11:14]
  • She acknowledges it’s not “screen-free,” since she types on her phone, but the creative routine grounds her nights and helps her process the day.

2. Who is Sad Beige? The Origin Story

• [13:33] Hayley describes her evolution from foster care content creator to viral comedy persona:
  • The “Sad Beige” character originated from a joke about the trend of neutrals and “sad beige” toys for children, delivered in a parody of Werner Herzog.
  • “I'm mostly known for the sad beige toys for sad beige children jokes.” — Hayley DeRoche [13:33]

3. Parenting, Aesthetics & the Influence of Capitalism

• [15:43]–[18:50] Doree and Hayley examine the way parenting trends are influenced (and policed) by consumerism:
  • Modern parenting is inescapably entwined with internet marketing algorithms targeting new parents, making it hard for people to parent authentically.
  • “As soon as the Internet figures out that you're expecting a baby, you are a target… It’s very, very difficult to parent outside of this tornado of information trying to influence you.” — Hayley DeRoche [16:49]
  • Hayley reflects on the guilt and class aspects: not being able to afford a certain product or experience can make parents feel inferior, though “there’s so much more to it than just an aesthetic… it’s this feeling of guilt that’s following people around.” [18:50]

4. Identity Beyond Stuff: The Sad Beige Parent Handbook

• [19:44]–[21:53] On her new book, Hayley hopes parents rediscover themselves and their kids as people, not just consumers:
  • “Figure out who you are as a parent and also figure out and love who your kid really is without all of the stuff in the way…You are, in a sense, your child’s influencer, the biggest one.” [19:44]
  • She also talks about the importance and joy of community, notably her “mom group,” emphasizing empathy and connection with other parents.

5. The Harm of Social Media Mediation & Embracing Analog Life

• [22:24]–[26:35] Hayley discusses the downsides of a life mediated by social media and AI, advocating for real-life, analog experiences:
  • “I don't need AI to write a lullaby for my kid. Like, I can do that. I don't want to just queue up some random recording…there's this human element that's just so necessary…It's just life.” — Hayley DeRoche [23:06]
  • Hayley sees value in resisting the urge to immortalize or perform every parenting moment for digital audiences—and instead prioritizing sacred, offscreen connection.
  • She warns against the temptation to let tech or content rob us of presence: “I don't want to watch my kids through a screen...there’s something sacred that I want to try and keep...” [26:10]

6. Performance Art & Late Stage Capitalism: ‘Drive to Target’

• [28:43]–[35:13] Hayley explains her viral, satirical “Drive to Target” TikTok poetry series, which riffs on trending consumer headlines:
  • She uses a style called “detournement” to subvert algorithmic logic, blending headlines and repetitive advertising language to reveal darker truths about consumerism and social priorities.
  • “I’m taking those…and then kind of whittling them down…through a funnel almost…which is basically the news and reality that that algorithm is very effectively hiding.” — Hayley DeRoche [30:56]
  • The series is both a critique of how our attention is manipulated, and a meta-commentary on digital censorship, particularly as ownership and power in platforms shift.

7. Reading from ‘The Sad Beige Parent Handbook’

• [36:37]–[39:32] Hayley shares an excerpt from her book’s satirical advice column, “Dear Abyss,” which delivers timeless (and humorously cosmic) parenting guidance:
  • “A new child is thus an old child, and an old child forever a new one...continue as you are going, but double it...Let the ribbon of time unfurl as it may. Let the stars fall, all will be well.” — Dear Abyss, Read by Hayley DeRoche [39:06]

8. On Book Events, Connection, and Where to Find Hayley

• Hayley shares details of her upcoming book events (Richmond, Chicago, New York, Baltimore, possibly Columbus), and invites listeners to connect on TikTok (@sadbeige), Instagram (@officialsadbeige), and Substack (Weird, But Okay).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parenting & Consumerism:
  • “It's very, very difficult to parent outside of this tornado of information trying to influence you…If you don’t buy this, you’re not a good parent.” — Hayley DeRoche [16:49]
• On AI & Real-Life Experience:
  • “I don’t need AI to write a lullaby for my kid. Like, I can do that. There’s this human element that’s just so necessary…It's just life.” — Hayley DeRoche [23:06]
• On Social Media & Presence:
  • “I don't want to watch my kids through a screen…There’s something sacred that I want to try and keep where you can.” — Hayley DeRoche [26:10]
• On Subversive Art:
  • “In this funny way to me, I’m using the tool of the algorithm against the algorithm, and which is very juicy for me.” — Hayley DeRoche [30:56]
• On Community:
  • “I love my kids, but my mom group is one of the big loves of my life. And it's lovely and beautiful and, like, how lucky that you get to meet these people because of a specific life phase…” — Hayley DeRoche [21:53]

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Important Timestamps

• 11:14 — Hayley's nightly poetry self-care ritual
• 13:33 — The Sad Beige persona origin story
• 15:43–16:49 — Discussion of parenting aesthetics and algorithmic influence
• 19:44 — Hayley on finding identity outside of marketing
• 23:06 — Hayley on AI and the importance of analog, real-life connection
• 28:43 — Introduction to “Drive to Target” performance poetry series
• 30:56 — Artistic philosophy behind the series
• 36:49 — Hayley’s “Dear Abyss” advice column reading
• 39:44 — Book tour and where to find Hayley online

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, funny, and self-aware, balancing critique and satire with genuine affection for parenting, friendship, and creativity. The tone blends humor with honesty—Doree and Hayley share both frustrations with and joy in modern life, encouraging listeners to question the forces shaping our choices and to find grounding in simple, real-life practices and communities.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an insightful and imaginative conversation for anyone who’s ever felt pressured by trends, algorithms, or social expectations—and who wonders who they might be without all the “stuff.” Through wry humor and practical wisdom, it offers reminders to reconnect with community, creativity, and ourselves.

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Where to Find More:

• Hayley DeRoche:
  • TikTok: @sadbeige
  • Instagram: @officialsadbeige
  • Substack: “Weird, But Okay”
• The Sad Beige Parent Handbook: Out April 21, available everywhere books are sold.
• Forever35 Podcast: forever35podcast.com

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Transcript

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[Dory Shafrier]

Walmart Business is in the business of helping your business regardless of whether you're building bridges, building spreadsheets, or building lesson plans.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, that looks fun. Walmart Business can help save you time, money and hassle so you can focus

[Dory Shafrier]

on what you're building instead of what

[Elise Hu]

your supply closet is missing.

[Dory Shafrier]

In short, we take care of business so you can do more with yours. We're the Walmart you love now for your business. Learn [e-mail]. Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And today we have Haley Duroche on the show. You may know her better by her social media moniker, Sad Beige, or as she's known on Instagram, official, Sad Beige. I have been a follower of Hayley's for a long, long time. I love everything she does on social media and her writing. And she has a new book out called the Sad Beige Parents Handbook. So we had a great conversation. She's so smart and so perceptive and yeah, I think you'll really enjoy our chat. Elise, what? What's going on with you?

[Elise Hu]

I know that our show Open Line is that we talk about serums, but I just wanted to do a quick shout out for my Tatcha Matcha. It rhymes. There is a Tatcha Matcha cleanser that's, you know, the Matcha Cleanse by Tatcha. And I'm now using it to wash my face. And I really like it. I really like it. I believe Rob has stolen it a few times because I find it in the shower sometimes.

[Dory Shafrier]

How dare he?

[Elise Hu]

I know. And but when I find it in the shower, I know he's used it because he washes his face in the shower, as is his. And so I'm like, this is my fancy Tatcha Matcha. Why is it next to the hair conditioner?

[Dory Shafrier]

He doesn't even have the decency to put it back in the right place.

[Elise Hu]

Nope.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow. He does not know how to cover his tracks.

[Elise Hu]

No, not at all. The other day I woke up in the Morning. And there was like half a glass of wine in the bat, like, in the bathroom in the sink. And I'm like, your bedtime wine was still in the bathroom. Put it away.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Well, because I don't like the kids leaving errant glasses all over the house. And so when an adult leaves an errant glass in the house, I have to call them out on it. I'm just like, no, I'm not going to pick up after this. I'm just going to leave it here as a protest until you get it.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's so funny. Is this a Tatcha product that you got on your tennis retreat?

[Elise Hu]

Yes, that's how I even got introduced to it in the first place. And the other product from it, which was like the moisturizer that I had to open while I was out there in the desert because I forgot to bring my moisturizer that's gone missing completely.

[Dory Shafrier]

Excuse me.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, so I don't know if maybe one of the daughters stole it. I am a victim of theft. I am a.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, you are.

[Elise Hu]

I am consistently getting things stolen. Well, skincare items stolen by two out of the three daughters. Maybe all three daughters. And, like, I can never keep a lineage lip sleeping mask or whatever to save my life. I will have three new ones or something that a friend of mine will bring me back from Korea, and I can't keep them for more than like, 12 hours before they just disappear. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what happened to my moisturizer. It's gone. And then we know what happened to my Tatcha Matcha Cleanse. It just gets used in the shower sometimes, but at least it's still. I can still identify where it is.

[Dory Shafrier]

I feel like you need to, like, watch your back with all your products.

[Elise Hu]

I truly do. And my chargers, that's a problem.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

Chargers, charging cables. You know, what I need to do is not live with so many roommates. That's what I need.

[Dory Shafrier]

You need your own place, right?

[Elise Hu]

How do I not live with my children?

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh. Maybe you should have moved into the Hugh hideaway, right? Be like, Rob, now that you're here, we're going to switch. Yeah,

[Elise Hu]

you've got this. You've got this, buddy.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's all good.

[Elise Hu]

Anyway, what about you? What's happening? Do you. You're. You're here this weekend? This upcoming weekend, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

I am here this upcoming week. I'm playing in a tennis match on Saturday that was originally going to be at 1pm deep in the Valley and it's going to be very hot. Yeah. And it just got rescheduled for 8:30am which I am delighted by.

[Elise Hu]

What a relief.

[Dory Shafrier]

What a relief indeed. I mean, at least I wasn't going to be playing singles, but even playing doubles at 1pm, like full sun, it's just. Yeah, it's a little rough. And then.

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I don't know, I just really, I'm like, really bad at planning stuff for my kid. And I just looked at our calendar and he's on. He usually does this like math class on Sundays, but they're on break, so he doesn't have it on Sunday. So Sunday is wide open. And I'm like, well, it'll be warm

[Elise Hu]

enough for the beach. If y' all want to do a beach day, I think, yeah, maybe we

[Dory Shafrier]

should just do a beach day. I've been talking about maybe doing a beach day each day. That's not a bad idea. I.

[Elise Hu]

Because I was looking at camps already because it's about that time to start looking at summer camps and things to do for the kids. And there was one that I was looking at that they have a field trip once a week, you know, for the day campers. And it's like to laser tag. And there was one that was stand up paddle boarding slash kayaking day. And I'm just like, oh, these are great weekend activities. Why don't I do that? One of them was like escape room. Like, oh, I should, I should take the kids to these places on the weekends. Maybe that would be fun. But yeah, it is spring break either this week or next week. It's spring break all over the place. And so air travel has been a mess. You should have seen LAX when I was coming back. And that was just to like. That was just normal spring break travel, you know, like people trying to get to the airport.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

It took 40 minutes after you were already on Sepulveda past the parking spot place where you can like park. And then what? Yeah. And so it was just really hard to get into the airport itself. And then. And that's typical, I guess, around winter travel and spring travel. But then some of the airports around the nation because of the government or the TSA funding stoppage. Like those TSA lines seem like nightmares.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Three hours in Atlanta. I've been seeing a lot of Reddit posts.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Of specific airports. Like JFK seems really bad. Atlanta is really bad. San Diego also really bad.

[Elise Hu]

I really hope that gets resolved soon.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, me too.

[Elise Hu]

As I feel about all the wars that are going on.

[Dory Shafrier]

Seriously My God. Well, before I introduce Hailey.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

I just want to remind everyone that you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 or email us at forever35podcastmail.com and we love getting your emails, your texts, your voice memos because we use them for our mini episodes where we respond to you and your questions. And so yeah, so please, please call in, text in, write in, etc. You can visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. We are also on Instagram @forever35 podcast. We also have our [e-mail] Forever35. And we will be recording a live casual chat on Wednesday, April 8th at 1:30 Pacific, 4:30 Eastern. So join the Patreon before that. So you can join our casual chat and you can ask us questions and we will be chatting with you guys and with each other. And last time we did it, it was super fun. We're doing these quarterly or roughly quarterly in addition to our weekly just regular casual chats which we are now doing on video. So if you are a video person, you can check those out. You can also just join our Patreon at the free level to get access to the semi monthly newsletter where we discuss pod highlights, product reviews, exclusive discounts, giveaways and more bonus content. And then at the five dollar level you get access to the casual chat, which again is now on video. You get our live casual chats, you get access to our community discussion on the Patreon app. And at $10 a month you get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast every month. So that is our patreon [e-mail] forever35. And now I will introduce Haley, who is a humorist and poet and the creator of the viral Sad Beige TikTok series. Her work has been covered by the BBC, Washington Post, New York Times and more. And her book, dress your baby in sage and taupe, A handbook for the sad beige parent is out on April 21st. So do pre order it. Pre orders really help. And she lives with her family near Richmond, Virginia, where she is also a public librarian.

[Elise Hu]

I didn't know that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, yeah, she's a librarian.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, that's very cool.

[Dory Shafrier]

And she had reserved a room at the library to record our interview.

[Elise Hu]

That is so sweet. I'm really sorry to have missed this one. So Dory is piloting this interview and then I will be back at the end for intentions.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. All right, here's Haley Haley, welcome to Forever 35. It is really great to see you. I have been a fan of your work for a very, very long and great to just get to chat.

[Haley Duroche]

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. This is so exciting.

[Dory Shafrier]

This is exciting. And we get to talk about your book. I'm just, I'm very excited. But as you may know, we start off our conversations with all of our guests by asking them about a self care practice that they have. And so I'm wondering if there is something that you do these days that you would consider self care.

[Haley Duroche]

Well, let's see. I actually started at the beginning of the year writing a poem before I go to bed every night and I find it to be very grounding because I'm not necessarily putting my phone down because I do tend to write them in my notes app. So full disclosure, this is not like screen free time but I just find like it's nice to have that little ritual at the end of the day and it kind of forces me to think creatively before I go to bed. And it's just kind of, it's been this really freeing practice and like, you know, if I forget one night it's fine but, but it's been really good for me. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

How did you come to this?

[Haley Duroche]

That's a good question. I, I have just started doing more poetry in general lately and at the beginning of the year I was just like, I need to do something more concrete than this haphazard projects that I've currently got going on.

[Dory Shafrier]

That's really cool. So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

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[Dory Shafrier]

Walmart business is in the business of helping your business regardless of whether you're building bridges, building spreadsheets or building lesson plans.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, that looks fun. Walmart business can help save you time, money and hassle so you can focus

[Dory Shafrier]

on what you're building instead of what

[Elise Hu]

your supply closet is missing.

[Dory Shafrier]

In short, we take care of business so you can do more with yours. We're the Walmart you love now for your business. Learn [e-mail]. Before we get to Sad Beige and the book, could you just give our listeners just like a little bit of background of who you are and, you know, what you do and how you kind of came to embody the sad beige Persona.

[Haley Duroche]

Originally, I started out doing foster care content on TikTok in early 2021, and then after my family's journey transitioned into adoption, I kind of shifted my content over to comedy. And one day I was shopping for a baby shower and came across these stacking cups, stacking rings that were very sad beige colors. I made a joke on the Internet, and it turned into this whole viral series where I'm pretending to be German nihilist filmmaker Werner Herzog. And, you know, I would just come on the screen and be like, welcome to Werner Hartzock's new line of children's toys. And so that kind of, you know, catapulted my comedy career, which is very exciting, which I'd done a little bit of before with writing for McSweeney's from time to time and things of that nature. And then more recently, I've kind of veered off into poetry land, doing a lot of different creative writing things in that area as well. But, yeah, so I'm mostly known for the sad beige toys for sad beige children jokes.

[Dory Shafrier]

It was so funny to me personally, because I think my son was around 2 when you started the whole sad beige series. As a new mom, I had been influenced to want to do the whole, you know, neutrals and wooden toys and all the things, like seeing these influencers. And my son just, like, gravitated to the brightly colored toys, the primary colors. Like, when he started picking out his clothes, he wanted, like, you know, bright colors. He didn't want anything muted. He didn't want anything brown. I definitely felt like that aesthetic was so dominant. I don't know. Like, I'm sort of out of baby world now, so I don't know if that is still kind of the dominant esthetic. Do you have a sense of whether people are still obsessed with this, this look?

[Haley Duroche]

I think overall, it's definitely still trending. I do think that it's kind of bumped down a little bit from, I think, the more upper class, like, sensibility that it originally was sort of projecting. It's very much tied to, like, Montessori and Waldorf and homeschooling and crunchy granola. So you have a lot of these different kind of subcultures connecting over this one aesthetic. If you're an influencer and you're trying to, like, sell products, then it makes a lot of sense to have, like, a beige backdrop. So your beige house for a Lot of people. And that definitely extends to like, baby stuff as well as, you know, as much as anything.

[Dory Shafrier]

I think all of this is intended to sell products and we all just exist in this late stage capitalism where everything, whether it's aesthetic or not, it's just intended to get us to buy more stuff.

[Haley Duroche]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I just love to hear, you know, your thoughts on all of that and how it, how it sort of works.

[Haley Duroche]

So I think a lot of it comes down to the algorithm in a sense, kind of pegging you as a mark. So as soon as the Internet figures out that you're expecting a baby, you are a target. You're going to get every email under the sun, it's going to follow you from website to website, it's going to figure out what you're looking for, what stroller, you know, caught your eye, and then it's going to haunt you for six to seven years. And so like, but like, that's the milieu, I guess, that like we're all sort of parenting in, where you can't just parent your child. You can't just make a decision. Now, as soon as you even talk about it in a room where your phone might have been, now the Internet is going to start like kind of pestering you like, oh, you were talking about like this type of parenting or you were interested in Montessori and, you know, you were talking about mushrooms. Like it's, it's very, very difficult to parent outside of this like tornado of information trying to influence you. And like, some of it's welcome. I mean, you know, everybody wants to figure out parenting advice for the problem that's bugging them. And if that information gets fed to you, that's great. But I do think that it just becomes very difficult to parent authentically if you don't exactly know who you are as a parent yet. And then you're just suddenly bombarded with everything telling you if you're, you know, if you don't buy this, you're not a good parent. If you don't buy that, you're not a good parent, you know, send your child to this preschool. I think as more and more people find that a lot of those things are just out of reach, especially financially, I think it's really easy to feel bad about yourself that like, you're not as good as the people who can afford a, B or C. I mean, even if it's just like going to Disney or something, all of those boxes are things that I'm supposed to buy. And I don't Think that that's what determines my worth as a parent or, like, the type of parenting that I'm doing. And I think it's just. There's so much more to it than just an aesthetic that's following people around. I think it's this feeling of guilt that's following people around, kind of underlying that.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I feel like, you know, you do a really good job of making it clear that you're not. It's almost like you're not judging people for their individual choice to buy a wooden ring stacker. It's like. Right. Like, it's more like you're just highlighting that they are part of this bigger system that is, like, outside of their control and how much we are influenced and pressured, you know, to your point, to consume all of this stuff all of the time.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

And it's. Yeah. I mean, when you really start to sort of, like, pick it apart, it is quite. Quite grim. But let's get to your. Let's get to your book, which is called the Sad Beige Parent Handbook. How did this come about? And what do you kind of hope people take away from it?

[Haley Duroche]

You know, this first came about a publisher, craftsman, part of Norton reached out to me about doing a book based on Sad beige, which was very exciting for me. Having done this for several years now, starting in 2021, feels like a lifetime ago now. Yeah. So it was very exciting to have that opportunity. And then as far as what I want people to take away from it, I think I really want people to fall in love with who they can be as a parent, disconnected from marketing and toys and all of this stuff. Like, figure out who you are as a parent and also figure out and love who your kid really is without all of the stuff in the way. Because that's been one of the joys for me as a parent is figuring out who my kids are as fully themselves. You are, in a sense, your child's influencer, the biggest one. But as much as I think we like to think that we have control because of that, we really don't. Your kids get to a point, mine are 9 and 11 now, where they are making those choices for themselves. And so fun to just watch them blossom and be themselves without that, like, power that I used to have, if that makes sense. Like, relinquishing that power has been really joyful for me. And the other part of it for me is really falling in love with other parents. And that's kind of part of the book. You know, I start the book off with a Kind of a winky dedication of, like, you know, this book is for moms. Well, you know, some of you, anyway. But by the end, my hope is that people also feel a lot of love and empathy for other parents out there, because one of the biggest things for me as a parent has also been, like, the mom group that I'm a part of. And it's been just like. I mean, I love my kids, but, like, my mom group is, like, one of the big loves of my life. And it's lovely and beautiful and, like, how lucky that you get to meet these people because of a specific life phase that you're in. I mean, it's almost like, you know, meeting a roommate in college or something, and that just becomes this huge part of your life through kind of happenstance.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, I love that you're saying that, because I do feel like there's a tendency, especially in social media, to kind of. Especially in comedy about parenting, is to, like, highlight, you know, how tough it is or, like, how annoying your kids are, and we get away from some of the joy of parenting and. Yeah, the joy, like, of meeting other parents and, you know, being. Being a parent to a child who is, like, turning into a person.

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So it's like, it's. It's cool to hear you highlight that. You also have been talking on TikTok about the analog life, and it seems to me that this is sort of all connected, right? Like, how the focus on aesthetics and, like, performing for social media removes us from the actual human connection of it all. You know, whether it is the mom group or if you're not a parent, you know, just other people. And I'd love to just hear you talk a little bit about, like, what we lose when our lives are continually mediated by social media or AI. Yeah.

[Haley Duroche]

I mean, especially with the AI stuff. I think it was Sam Altman who was like, I don't know how you can raise a baby without AI. And it's just like, what are you talking about? I mean, people have been raising babies since babies were invented. And granted, the Internet certainly has made that easier in a lot of respects. I mean, you can find answers for anything. Now, whether AI is helping or hindering that is another question. Because, of course, now you don't know if the answers you're getting are really real and right. So shout out to libraries. I'm a librarian, too, so you should ask your librarian for help. But also, just, like, this idea that we need these, like, electronic tools or these algorithms or any of that to do what I think we know deep down inside we need to do. I mean, there's always going to be parenting advice and stuff we don't know that we need help with. But, like, I don't need AI to write a lullaby for my kid. Like, I can do that. Like, I don't want to just queue up some random recording or like some random video and just be like, here, good night. Like, there's this human element that's just so necessary. And like, I don't even. I don't know that even calling it like the analog life is doing it justice enough. Because it's like, it's just life. Like, that's the most human thing is like sitting in a rocker rocking your child to sleep at three in the morning. And like, you know, there's just like, they're just like a little heavy sack of bones and like, you know, their cheek is hot, their breath is hot. Like, it's just, it's just you two and like, that's it. And like, there's no chat GPT that's ever going to replace that relationship. And like, I can't think of a single thing that I would want to ask chat when I'm doing that. And I can't imagine feeling the need to like, introduce this other random robot into that relationship. So, like, for me, it's just like, I'm just offended, I guess, at the idea that, like, I am not enough. And I don't mean that as like, you know, everyone needs community, but I don't need a robot. I don't need this chat to, you know, gas me up about my decisions when I, like, it's not even real. It doesn't even know. Like, this is just. It's nothing. It's ephemeral. I would much rather lean on my friends and, you know, when we're tired and we can't answer, that's okay. And you just lift each other up and sometimes one person is carrying more than the others and then the next time the other people are carrying, like that's just the ebb and flow of relationship.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Haley Duroche]

So. So that's just. I know, it's just, it's all so tangled up, but for me, when, when he said that, that was really kind of the key for me is like, oh, okay, so you just, you just want to take away the human element of one of the most human things you can do. And I just say no to that.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. I mean, I think we need to say no to that. Like, collectively.

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Because otherwise the alternative seems very grim to me?

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah, I just, I don't want to watch my kids through a screen, you know, in the same way, like I don't make content about my kids for the same reason. It's like I don't want to introduce this, this third party of like whether it's like the Internet and some sort of fake audience or chatgpt. Like I just, I don't know. There's something sacred that I want to try and try and keep where you can because I mean the Internet creeps into so much of our lives that that's pretty hard to do.

[Dory Shafrier]

We will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrier]

I want to also talk about another series that you have been doing for the past like year and a half I want to say.

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah, yeah. It's been going on for a while now. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And it is the Drive to Target series.

[Haley Duroche]

They're never going to carry my book. Now

[Dory Shafrier]

I want to play one of your recent videos just so people like. I feel like describing it doesn't quite do it justice.

[Haley Duroche]

Yeah, I don't think it does.

[Dory Shafrier]

It's an experience. It's an experience.

[Haley Duroche]

There's a line out the door for the viral Starbucks bear cup, now reselling for over $300. Did you see the experience? Exclusive K Pop Demon Hunters barbies now only $150. Drive to Target. Hungry for savings. Save 2% when you sign up for a Taco Bell credit card. Baja blast your way to savings. There's one thing you can bank on this season, it's savings. At T.J. maxx. Foodies rejoice. Now you can put down a deposit on that Thanksgiving turkey. Drive to Target. There's a line out the door for the viral Starbucks bear cup. There's a line out the door. There's a line out the door. Did you see the exclusive K Pop Demon Hunters Barbie? Did you see? Did you see? Did you see? There's one thing you can bank on. Bank on. Bank on. Foodies rejoice. Foodies rejoice. Foodies rejoice. Food. Food. Food bank on it. Food bank.

[Dory Shafrier]

Food bank.

[Haley Duroche]

Did you see? Did you see? Did you see the line out the door? The line up the door and then the food bank. The viral Starbucks bear cup is reselling for over $300. Drive to Target.

[Dory Shafrier]

Okay, so we were kind of chatting before we started recording. And this is obviously, you know, not just about parenting. It's not just about sad beige, but it is about late stage capitalism and it is about consumerism and. And, you know, it feels like all of your work is sort of of a piece. And so could you talk a little bit about this series and what it is and, you know, what are you trying to say here?

[Haley Duroche]

It's a lot. So this style of poetry is called deternement, and it's basically a way of detouring a known thing into kind of the antithesis of it. So there are some examples out there of, like, French art where they would take cigarette ads and turn them into the opposite or something like that. So it's like you take something and you turn it around and you flip it on itself to change the messaging. And what I'm doing is taking headlines and these viral trending topics, all of the things that the algorithm is just so hungry for. It will feed you that, you know, sun up to sundown. And I'm taking those and then kind of whittling them down or like through a funnel almost. So, like, if you think about the beginning of the poem as kind of the top of the funnel, and then slowly it kind of filters down into the final message, which is basically the news and reality that that algorithm is very effectively hiding. And it's also playing with those keywords precisely because that's how the algorithm works. So in this funny way to me, I'm using the tool of the algorithm against the algorithm, and which is very juicy for me. So I love doing that. It's very satisfying from an artistic perspective, in the same way that sometimes TikTok will throw up ads after it, which people always comment on. And I'm like, I don't add those, but I do consider them part of the work when that happens, because it's just kind of like an exclamation point. It underlines it in a way, so each piece is a little bit different. I don't make that many of them. I'll make maybe one or two a month right now, because it is. I don't want to minimize what's happening, which is always something that you have to be careful about when you're making art about really serious stuff. And so there have been times when I've kind of broken character, because my character is, in a sense, the algorithm, that perky T.J. maxx style of, you know, with my voice. So there have been times when I've kind of broken character and just been like, there's no way to say this other than just what it is. But even then, it's like, if you put that far enough into the video after all of the algorithmic bait essentially that I've put out, then people get to see that. And obviously it's also talking about censorship, in a sense. TikTok changed ownership this January, and people are definitely experiencing new things on that app. And I think it is scary that it is now very much controlled by our government and people in power who have a very specific plan for what they do and do not want us to see on the Internet. And I think that that makes it a lot easier on such a global app like TikTok to remove that kind of globalization on it and just make it very, very us led. So every poem's a little bit different, and sometimes it'll just be about what's speaking to me at that moment, what's really upsetting me at that moment. And it's kind of different every time, but I really enjoy writing them, and it's very, like. It really does kind of twist my brain around in a certain way to do it, and I like to think I'm pretty good at it.

[Dory Shafrier]

You are. You're really good at it. I mean, they're really good. And, like, the eerie music in the background and your delivery is so good. I suggest all of you go. Go and look at Hayley's TikTok, which is sad beige, and she has a playlist called Drive to Target, and you can see all of them.

[Haley Duroche]

The reason it's called Drive to Target, I should probably clarify, is because it's kind of the running theme, and it. For me, it just kind of stands in for Distract yourself. Drive to Target. Distract yourself. You know, it's the same as, like, you know, go to Starbucks, something like that. But Drive to Target, particularly when we are, in fact, the target of, you know, censorship. We are the target of this government. It seems like it hates its own people. You know, you can say Drive to Target, but Drive to Target can also mean the opposite, which to me is kind of, you know, the whole piece.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. It's so layered. And I also. I love what you say about kind of using the algorithm against itself.

[Haley Duroche]

You can.

[Dory Shafrier]

You can tell when some of your videos have, like, broken containment.

[Haley Duroche]

Unfortunately, I stopped checking the comments after a certain point. When it's a broken containment, you're like, okay, well, now. Now we're just gonna get Lord only knows, right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Right. Which is just, you know, another sort of layer of all of this. Like, oh, I, you know, I did a poem about Taylor Swift, and now her actual fans have found this and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but it's, you know, so just your whole, like, meta commentary on all of that, I just find so fascinating. And I think also they stand alone as their own, you know, poems and pieces of performance art. So. Oh, yeah. What you're doing is so beautiful and so subversive. So thank you.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you.

[Haley Duroche]

It's fun to talk about algorithmic stuff because it's like, it is really just this ribbon that kind of runs from the book to this. And, you know, people who liked sad beige because of that will like Target, and they'll definitely like my book, whether they, like, you know, came to me for the poetry or the sad beige. Like, I really feel like if you care about that stuff, then you will love this book, because not a lot of other parenting books talk about that. And. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

So, Haley, I was thinking it might be fun to have you read a little bit from your book. Is there something that you would like to share with our listeners?

[Haley Duroche]

So one of my personal favorite running themes like running bits in this book, is an advice column from Dear Abyss. So if you're familiar with Dear Abby, this is Dear Abyss and it is basically an advice column from being untethered from space and time. The Abyss welcome to Dear Abyss, your advice lifeline for all the parenting questions you are too afraid to ask a mere mortal. What is your question, my child? Dear Abyss, I'm having my first child and I'm overwhelmed by everything I'm supposed to decide and the stakes feel so high. Montessori versus Waldorf, baby sign language versus Telepathy. College versus Trade school. It's all so much, yet if I choose wrong, it feels like I'll ruin everything. You're an all powerful timeless entity existing outside the realm of space and time and I thought you'd be just the right thing to ask for guidance. So what's your number one piece of advice for new parents who want to give a child the very best start in life? Sincerely Expecting the Best Dear Bestie in life, there is no start, just as there is no end. Think of life less like a race and more like an undulating ribbon weaving a mysterious design out of the fibers of life. A new child is thus an old child, and an old child forever a new one. You too are thus both a new parent, as fresh faced and dewy eyed as your little one will be upon their arrival, and as ancient as the hills. Given all this, the best way to give your child a good start in life is to continue as you are going, but double it. For just as your love is doubling with this new family member, your example of goodness can be multiplied as an example for them. If you gift a dollar to someone in need, next time give them two. If you howl at the moon, howl twice as loud. And if you look up at the stars and ponder the inexplicable smallness of yourself in relation to the ever expanding universe. Ponder that smallness with double the awe and double the gasps as the falling stars pass before your eyes. See how the shooting stars have doubted. Oops. See how the shooting stars have doubled in your eyes and your babes wee eyes as well. Let the ribbon of time unfurl as it may. Let the stars fall, all will be well.

[Dory Shafrier]

Cheers.

[Haley Duroche]

The Abyss and I just had so much fun writing these. Some are more silly than others, but it's just. It's so Fun to write as a black hole. Also, the illustrations are very, very sweet and done by real humans.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes, the illustrations are lovely. The book itself is lovely. It looks like, you know, a little. It really looks like a gift book.

[Haley Duroche]

So, yes, it makes a wonderful gift.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. Well, Hayley, you mentioned that you were doing some book events. Do you want to let our listeners know where they might be able to catch you in person?

[Haley Duroche]

So we are having a book launch at Fountain bookstore in Richmond, Virginia on April 21st. I will also be at the American Library association conference in Chicago and there will be a bookstore event in Chicago that weekend as well as well. And then I'm doing a couple different events here in Virginia as well as in New York, Maryland, Baltimore, and possibly like Columbus, Ohio, and just a number of different places along the way. Kind of on the. The eastern seaboard.

[Dory Shafrier]

Very cool. And where can our listeners find you find your work on TikTok and Instagram.

[Haley Duroche]

So I am at Sad Beige on TikTok and I am at official Sad Beige on Instagram because someone else has sad beige and they're not me. Rude, Alas.

[Elise Hu]

I know.

[Haley Duroche]

Very rude. Very rude. And then I do have a substack as well, which is weird, but okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

Well, thank you, Hailey. It was so great to get to talk to you. And the new book is the Sad Beige Parent Handbook. Thank you again.

[Haley Duroche]

Thank you.

[Dory Shafrier]

It was really fun to get to talk to Haley and her book is delightful. If you have a new parent in your life who would appreciate. Yeah, that kind of send up of. Of influencer parent culture. It's a. It's a really great gift.

[Elise Hu]

Totally.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, so now we are in the intention zone. And my intention last week was to have a chill attitude at the Saturday match. And the Saturday match was a playoff match where I was playing against people who I knew would be much better than.

[Haley Duroche]

Oh, right, I remember.

[Elise Hu]

You set this up, huh?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yes. So I had found a video and actually we'll link to it in the show notes by this tennis coach, Jonathan Stokoe, who also has a podcast and he does a lot of YouTube videos. And he had a video on like, like, how to play as an underdog.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I watched it and I was like, oh, this is so helpful. Like, it just sort of helped me kind of like reset my brain about the match. And I just went into it. I feel like I went into it with a really good attitude and so did my partner. I sent it to her as well and she was like, oh, this was great. Like, thank you. And we, you Know, the score was. Was not great, but we did stay, like. I felt like we stayed in every point. We got to a lot of deuces. They were better. Like, they were just better. So, you know, they were able to win all those deuce games. You know, they just were able to close. But I didn't feel like, oh, my God, they are so, you know, so overpowering us. Like, I think they. They actually did seem a little surprised at how competitive it felt. Like one of them was like, oh, it felt a lot closer than the score reflects. You know, I think is. I think was accurate. So. Yeah, so that was. That was. Yeah. Thank you. That was.

[Elise Hu]

You should be proud.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you. Thank you so much. And then this week, I am going to continue the big. The great office decluttering because it's going well, and I'm just going to, like, continue the momentum. And also, I was talking about this on the casual chat, but I took a page out of Elisa's book and I've just been, like, selling so much. Just, like, things that I never would have necessarily tried to sell before.

[Elise Hu]

I couldn't believe that I sold, like, a random crystal block cell phone stand for $15. Right?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Why would somebody want that? Yeah. And, like, I do like to give stuff away on buy nothing because it's easy. But in this particular scenario, I was like, let me just see what I can sell right before I just give it away. And then it turned out out a lot. So. So that was great. How about you? Did you get a massage?

[Elise Hu]

I didn't. I didn't. I still have these two spa certificates I need to use. And we have spring break coming up, so I don't know if I'm gonna get to, because the kids are gonna be around. But I do wanna. So my intention is gonna be to try something new with the kids. So I don't know if that means, like, if we stay in town, maybe taking a surf lesson. Because I've never taken a surf lesson. Even though we live right by the ocean and Ava's learned to surf, but, like, my younger ones haven't. So maybe I'm just gonna say, like, try something new.

[Dory Shafrier]

Great.

[Haley Duroche]

I love it. I love it.

[Dory Shafrier]

Ironically, I learned to surf when I lived in New York, like, on Rockaway beach, and then took, like, a surf vacation. Like, I loved it. And then since moving to la, I, like, have not surfed.

[Haley Duroche]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dory Shafrier]

I know. I think Henry would really like it. So maybe, like, down the road we will.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Get back into it. All right, thanks. Everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our Project Manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everyone.

[Haley Duroche]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.

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[Haley Duroche]

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