Episode 397: The Scandal, The Optics, and The Gossip with Allie Jones

Summary

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Forever35, Episode 397: The Scandal, The Optics, and The Gossip with Allie Jones

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Allie Jones
Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the enduring allure and evolution of celebrity gossip—with writer, editor, and Gossip Time Substack author Allie Jones. Doree and Elise dig into how celebrity narratives are crafted in the modern era, the nitty gritty of crisis PR, and why public and personal perceptions of famous figures matter. They also discuss self-care with very little time (especially for parents of young kids), friendship and FOMO, and iconic moments from current celebrity culture. Allie’s sharp humor and insight illuminate the dynamics of gossip in 2026, bringing clarity to the chaos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Self-Care with Little Kids (14:04–15:33)

• Allie’s Mantra for Surviving Early Motherhood:
  • Allie, a mom to a toddler and an infant, adopted a mantra: “Don’t suffer.”

    “Every time I was holding the baby and then, like, my toddler was crying, I was like, don’t suffer. Don’t take this moment on... I’m going to, like, turn on reality TV and breastfeed.” (Allie, 14:31)

• Acknowledges the intense challenge, and recommends not martyring oneself during the “crisis period” after childbirth—small joys and escapism are tools, not failures.

2. The Evolving World of Celebrity Gossip (15:46–22:53)

• Is Gossip Still Fun for Allie?
  • Yes—celebrity headlines are both her job and her “3am scroll” entertainment.
• Current Obsessions:
  • The “Summer House” Bravo scandal involving relationships and breakups (“They just interviewed the mayor of New York about it!” – Allie, 17:17).
  • Following long-term arcs of celebrity narratives.
• On Crisis PR:
  • The game has changed:

    “There’s almost no lag time now between something happening and everyone knowing about it... There’s not enough time for a publicist to get in there and shape it before it comes out.” (Allie, 18:26)

  • Social media, leaks, and sources contribute to the speed and democratization of gossip.
  • Some still keep secrets—e.g., Mindy Kaling’s children’s paternity, Ariana Grande’s private moves—but it’s “really, really deliberate.”

3. Becoming a Savvy Gossip Consumer (20:04–21:29)

• Tabloid stories with “a source close to...” are usually publicist-driven—good to read for official spins.
• Paparazzi photo analysis:
  • Long lens = real candid; staged street shots = planned narrative.
• Purpose: To spot the gap between what’s presented and what’s real—“That’s what I try to do with the newsletter.”

4. Paparazzi Industry Today (21:29–22:53)

• “Is it still lucrative to take paparazzi photos?” Not much. Instagram and self-releases have devalued exclusive snaps, except for rare collaborations (like Rihanna’s pregnancy photos).
• Notable Paparazzo: Diggsy, Rihanna’s “pool photographer.”

5. Deep Dives: Notorious Current Celebrity Narratives

a. Brooklyn Beckham & Nicola Peltz Family Drama (23:35–26:09)

• Brooklyn distances himself from Posh & Becks; both sides leaking stories.

  “Both sides are kind of trying to control the narrative. And I think the harder they both try, the worse it’s looking for all of them.” (Allie, 23:58)

• Quote: “It’s like they’ve all sort of Streisand effected themselves.” (Doree, 25:02)

b. Taylor Swift’s Wedding & The Evolving “Squad” (26:09–27:45)

• Conflicting reports: Big event vs. locked-down affair, squad dynamics in flux.

  “With Taylor, it always seems to shift, year to year.” (Allie, 26:21)

• Godmother “strategy,” bachelorette parties planned to allow squad attendance.

6. When Does Something Become Monoculture? (27:47–28:21)

• “If I hear from my dad about it...If it’s reached the Wall Street Journal audience or the New York Times...then I think it has become monoculture and not just TikTok discourse.” (Allie, 27:47)

7. Why Is Gossip Fascinating? (28:27–29:33)

• Allie’s lifelong curiosity—personal relationships, public presentation, and “societal tells.”
  • Example: “Summer House” scandal reflects cultural feelings about cheating and friendship betrayals.

8. Lessons on Optics, Reputation, & Management (29:33–31:25)

• Celebrity “brand” is managed artfully—some speak directly (e.g., Chrissy Teigen), others enforce NDAs and total control (Taylor Swift with Tree Paine).
• Example:

  “In order to be able to walk through the stadium where [Swift] was performing...they had to sign an NDA and say they won’t reveal anything they see or hear about Taylor Swift.” (Allie, 30:33)

9. Podcasts & Shifting Gossip Platforms (34:46–37:14)

• Podcasts let celebrities message directly, often with more control than with traditional press.
• Many podcasters aren’t journalists, so conversations go unchallenged—stories are incomplete, more “infotainment” than investigation.

  “They’d rather go on Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard...they don’t need to sit down with someone who’s going to be even a little bit adversarial anymore.” (Allie, 35:05)

10. What People Want from Gossip in 2026 (37:14–38:17)

• Authenticity: Are celebrity relationships/friendships “real”?

  “There is a sense that things can be faked...people really do want to know, what is this person like in real life?” (Allie, 37:26)

11. Is Celebrity Behavior “Better”? (38:17–41:25)

• Social media ubiquity makes privacy rare; easier to catch misbehavior, but juicy stories can be “held” for the right moment (“landmines everywhere”).
• Child stars now more “performative”—less permission to be bratty off-camera, but at a cost.

  “There’s something so sad about a child actor to me...having to be performative all the time.” (Allie, 41:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On not suffering through early motherhood:

  “Don’t suffer. Don’t take this moment on.” (Allie, 14:31)

• On the modern celebrity PR scramble:

  “There’s not enough time for a publicist to get in there and like shape it before...it comes out.” (Allie, 18:26)

• On Brooklyn/Beckham-Peltz drama:

  “I think the harder they both try, the worse it’s looking for all of them.” (Allie, 23:58)
  “It’s like they’ve all sort of Streisand effected themselves.” (Doree, 25:05)

• On the monoculture barometer:

  “If I hear from my dad about it...then I think it has become monoculture.” (Allie, 27:47)

• On the relentless curiosity of fans:

  “Do you think this is real? Is this their real relationship? Is this their real friend?...I think people are endlessly interested in that.” (Allie, 37:26)

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Additional Highlights & Timestamps

• Friendship Energizers: Elise’s “rally at the Galley” story about friendship, social energy, and partners’ different needs. (03:13–09:21)
• Tabloid vs. Social Media vs. Podcasts in driving narratives: Who shapes what we believe? (20:04–22:53; 34:46–37:14)
• Recommendations: Bell Burden’s memoir The Strangers— “worth your time,” especially for its honesty about upper-crust NY life. (41:37)
• What’s tired?: “A lot of the stuff on Dumois...just reporting that someone was at a restaurant. I’m over that.” (42:38)

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Where to Find Allie Jones

• Substack newsletter Gossip Time
• Instagram: @allyrileyjones

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers both meta and granular takes on why we love (and sometimes loathe) celebrity gossip, its growing pains, and how it still mirrors deeper truths and anxieties in society. Allie Jones raises the curtain on how today’s narratives get made and why the “distance” between image and reality keeps us guessing.

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For further discussion highlights and direct links to products and stories mentioned, visit forever35podcast.com or @forever35podcast on Instagram.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[B]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[C]

And today we have a real treat for you. If you are a consumer of celebrity gossip and or commentary on celebrity gossip, you're probably familiar with the name Allie Jones because she writes the amazing substack newsletter Gossip Time and also contributes to a ton of places and she is just so delightful. I loved our conversation with her.

[B]

Ali is really funny. I'm a subscriber to Gossip Time. I I subscribe to two celebrity substacks, Gossip Time and Hunter Harris and they often collab or their topics are in conversation and I just I love their approaches. They both have very distinctive voices as writers, they have distinctive perspectives on things. Ali, if y' all don't already follow her, has this section in her newsletter every time called Stuff by Hilary Duff. Because she's obsessed with Hilary Duff. And it's so funny. I, like, live for that segment.

[C]

She's so funny. Yeah, she's so. She's so great. So we will get to her later in the episode.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Elise, how are you doing?

[B]

I'm pretty tired. I feel a little sleep deprived this week. But then also that I've been home too much, which then makes me tired. So, like, I need to be out and about with my friends to get energized. And so yesterday I came home from one of my many kid drop offs of Wednesday afternoon, and I kind of had this, like, meltdown to Rob. And I was like, I gotta get out of the house. I've been home like, three nights in a row. And I was home because Luna wanted to have a special sleepover with her dad on her birthday. So her birthday was Tuesday. She turned nine. Happy birthday to the tuna and for her. And then she had a normal day. She had musical theater, and then she had soccer. And so I was like, do you want to go to Benihana or something for dinner? Because we often go to Benihana for people's birthdays on their actual birthdays. And she was like, no, I just want to stay in and eat, like, Kraft Mac and Cheese. And can I go to Dad's and do it? Because she usually. The girls usually are with Maddie on the weekends. And I was like, great, have a sleepover of that. I mean, so long as he was down. And he was totally down. Yeah. And so we just had a chill night on Luna's birthday on Tuesday. And then by Wednesday, I was like, I had cabin fever or something. And I was like, I feel like a caged bird. I need to get out of the house.

[C]

You would not survive for five minutes in our house.

[B]

And Rob was like, I am so tired. I've had, like, four zoom meetings. I'm just fried. And I was like, you're not letting me be me. I need to be out of the house. And so he rallied. Because what I did was I texted my friends David and Jill. And Jill was just flying back from New York, and she had just landed, like. And David is always game. He's like, I'm just walking up and down Venice Beach. So I wasn't really doing anything anyway. And I was like, okay, meet in 30 minutes. We need to meet in 30 minutes at the galley I need to get out of the house. And so they were great. Jill, like, showed up at the bar with her suitcase because she went to go see one of the last tapings of Colbert in New York because colbert only has 20 tapings left. Yeah. And so she came in from the airport and showed up at the Galley. The Galley is the oldest bar restaurant in Santa Monica, and it's owned by a guy who we call Captain Ron because it's all maritime themed. And so it's decorated with Christmas lights year round. And I've gone there since I've lived in LA. Like, since I moved to LA in 2018, this has been one of the places that we go midweek or just on a random night, like, hey, rally at the Galley. Like, everybody just meet at the Galley. And so I called a rally at the Galley last night because I was having my meltdown. And they showed up, and David, I think, walked up from the beach. He was just like, do, do, do.

[D]

That's so.

[B]

It was so funny. And poor Rob was so tired. But he really showed up. He really showed up for me, and I'm really glad. I guess Captain Ron bought the restaurant so that he could get the salad dressing recipe. That is the story. They have, like, some house dressing that's so good that Captain Ron, the only way for him to get this secret recipe was to buy the. Buy the place.

[D]

And so.

[C]

That's so funny.

[B]

We will link to David's story. He has written a piece for Rezi that's like a reverie, a tribute to the Galley. And so since we're talking about it, since we're on the topic of the Galley. Yes, we will link to that piece. But now I feel much better. So I was tired, and then I got energized, but I had to drag Rob out.

[C]

Is Rob an introvert?

[B]

No. He's a very extroverted guy, too. He's just not as extroverted as me. And so.

[C]

So you make him look like an introvert?

[B]

I guess. Yeah. Around 9:30, he's like, hey, we don't have a babysitter anymore. Hey, you know? But he sent me this Onion article yesterday. The headline is unclear where girlfriend keeps making all these friends. And he's like, the. The. The. The Some line. And is, like, unable to provide an explanation for the woman's social life. Area man Jason Hellerman told reporters Tuesday it was unclear where his girlfriend Jess kept making all these friends. Because I'm always like, we got to go see Garrett. You know, he's in from Kinshasa I

[C]

mean this is what I, this is what I said about when you hosted my birthday party is like, you, there were like, there were some friends of yours there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And they were all great, but they were all like, I met Elise at an airport.

[B]

The funniest friends. My friend Pamela says the funniest friends of mine that she's met are the ones that I like dated once because I met them on Tinder or something and they're like still friends six years later. Or the ones where I interviewed for a job with them and didn't take the job and then they like continue to be good buddies. I have one like that where I interviewed viewed for a job at the Washington Post and the Washington Post editor. And I like became really good friends. And he, every year I came back from Korea for home leave, he would host a dinner party at his house for me and my friends and I could invite whoever and like to this day we're still really good for good bodies. So those are some of the random, random. I mean, look, I like, I think

[C]

it's great to like live your life like, like that, if you know what I mean. Like, it's a really nice, it's a really nice quality of yours that you have. Yeah, I don't have it, but.

[B]

Well, and then it's also, it's difficult for my partner.

[C]

Right, right, right there.

[B]

It can be challenging for my partner. And so credit to Rob for rallying for the rally at the Galley because now I feel so much better. I was just like doing too much stuff that I didn't want to do, like sitting in the Chick Fil, a drive through for the kids, or waiting in a parking lot outside dance. Yeah, you know, it was kind of getting me down.

[C]

Yeah, I, I hear you.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, Elise, before we get to our guest, I do just want to remind everyone that they can call or text us at 781-591-0390. You can email us at forever35podcastmail.com Our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to we mentioned on the show and we are on Instagram @forever35 podcast. Also, if you want more of us, which why wouldn't you, you can join our [e-mail] Forever35. At the free level, you get access to our semi monthly newsletter where we discuss pod highlights, product reviews, exclusive discounts, giveaways, and there's always just like fun bonus content on there. At $5 a month you get access to our casual chat which is now on video. You get our live casual chats. We just did one last week. It was super fun. Yeah, just really nice to get to, like, you know, hang out with the community.

[D]

We have.

[C]

You have access to our community chat and at $10 a month, you get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. So head over to patreon.com/forever35 and check that out. And now I'll get to Ali, who is a writer and editor. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, New York Magazine, gq, Vanity Fair, and other places. She also writes a weekly newsletter about celebrity gossip called Gossip Time. And previously, Allie was a senior writer at the Cut and a staff writer at Gawker, and she now lives in Brooklyn with her family. All right, we are going to take a short break and we will be right back with Ali. The women in your life who showed up for you like a mom deserve to be celebrated this Mother's Day, whether that's a mom, an aunt, a sister, a good friend, or a teacher. Elise, is there anyone in your life who you feel like was sort of like a mom figure to you?

[B]

Yeah, I was really reflecting on that a little bit ago. And from the time I was 5 until I was in middle school, I spent at least an hour a week with Jennifer, my piano teacher. And I realized I kind of grew up beside her and being nurtured by her and taught by her, coached by her, encouraged by her. And so while she wasn't my mom mom, she felt like one in a lot of ways. She was one of my trusted adults.

[C]

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[B]

Yeah.

[C]

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[A]

Think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT and T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill. Walk in running, pogo sticking, teleport if you can ride on the back of a rollerblading or flying on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can bring your AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network Based on Root Metric's Best Overall Mobile Network Performance US Second Half 2025 all rights reserved. Must provide very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.

[C]

Ally Jones welcome to Forever35. It is so great to have you here.

[D]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[C]

Yes, I've been a long time reader of your work so it's really great to get to talk to you. We start all of our interviews with the same question. We ask our guests about a self care practice that they have. And I know you know we were chatting before we started recording. You have two very small children so I I am curious how you kind of fit in any sort of self care with with such young children.

[D]

No, I was thinking about this question. I'm like okay, I have a two and a half year old and an almost four month old so I'm kind of just coming out of the crisis period of postpartum. But this time around I knew I was going to be busier. I knew I was going to have less time to do anything. So I came up with a mantra for myself which I'm not really a mantra person but it kind of worked. I just told myself don't suffer. Like and if I had a free hand I would have written it on my mirror. But every time I was holding the baby and then, like, my toddler was crying. I was like, don't suffer. Don't take this moment on. I'm not going to, like, suffer through this hour. I'm going to, like, turn on reality TV and like, breastfeed. I just tried to apply that through the first three months, and I actually think it kind of worked. Like, I feel like I love that I didn't get in the pits. And I mean, your mileage may vary, I'm sure. Like, all women just having a baby, like, it's so different. But I think I, like, didn't get the pits as much as I did the first time around.

[B]

And I know paying attention to celebrity gossip is your work, but is it also fun for you? So, like, have you kept up with all of the headlines during your parental leave?

[D]

Yes. I mean, I probably have missed some stuff, but when you're up at 3 in the morning, like, I'm still on Instagram.

[C]

Right.

[D]

It is still fun for me. And, like, there were even things where I was like, oh, like, I Wish I had 30 minutes to like, write this down and send it out because, like, I still get into it.

[B]

Yeah, I. I mean, I think just this morning I learned. I. I keep learning of surprises. Like, Aubrey Plaza is pregnant. Speaking of babies.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I didn't even know she was dating Christopher Abbott.

[D]

I think she didn't want us.

[C]

I don't think anyone did.

[B]

I didn't know. Okay. I didn't know if it was me just coming to this news or what because we're all in such silos.

[D]

I think there was like a little bit of low key stuff about it because they did a play together, but I think they were trying to be private. But then my guess is that she might be pretty far along if they felt the need to have this come out. Congratulations to them.

[B]

Yes, congratulations.

[C]

Seriously, I am curious. What are the sort of celebrity narratives that you are most obsessed with right now?

[D]

I don't know if you guys are Bravo people, but the summer house scandal that has sort of like engulfed the whole cast is really fascinating. The star, Amanda, is divorcing her husband Kyle, and now she's dating her best friend's ex boyfriend, West. And that's the reunion for that show is coming up. So that's been something that has been really taking over. Like, they just interviewed the mayor of New York about it.

[B]

Yes, I saw that. And he was like, Sierra the nurse?

[D]

Yeah, I thought that was a good answer. Whoever prepped him on that did a good job. I'M an old school RSS reader and I have all the tabloids and I go through every morning and I just like to see why is Brad Pitt putting something out now about his girlfriend? Like, I like to follow people over. Like I've been doing my newsletter, Gossip Time for almost six years now. So I feel like I've really been able to like follow like an arc of narratives with a lot of different people.

[B]

And not just the narratives themselves, but also the machinations behind the narratives too. Right. Like, I'm curious how crisis management or just PR has changed in a short amount of time. I was watching Molly McPherson, the crisis manager who's on TikTok all the time, and she was saying that PR fixers are dead and that Blake Lively's reputational destruction is proof of that. So what has shape shifted about managing brand and managing people's identities over the past few years?

[D]

It's so interesting to look at if you even think about the mid aughts era where everything was tabloids and that felt crazy, but that seemed so, so controlled and like so limited compared to what it is today with social media and basically everyone being a gossip reporter in some sense, everyone's sending things into the dumoise of the world and there's like almost no lag time now between something happening and everyone knowing about it. And there's not enough time for. I mean, I think probably what this person is arguing is like for a publicist to get in there and like shape it before, before it comes out. Right. So I think celebrities have to work a lot harder to keep things down tight. It is possible, like if you look at somebody like Ariana or people still don't know who the father of Mindy Kaling's children is. I do think it's possible to keep information to yourself if you're really, really deliberate about it. But a lot of things are just happening in real time and people are commenting on them in real time and there's not as much you can do to spin it.

[C]

I mean, we just talked about an example of that with Aubrey Plaza. Like the news of her pregnancy didn't had not come out until she decided she wanted it known.

[D]

Right. So my guess is that they were taking steps for her to not do red carpets. But if I had to guess, and I don't know this for sure, I bet maybe someone has photos of the two of them together or like a photo of her that they then went, you know, sought comment about it and that's probably why she decided to get ahead of it, that would be my guess. But, I mean, you can choose to kind of wait, right? But not forever.

[C]

So if the average person wants to be a kind of more like discerning celebrity gossip reader and sort of understand the machinations behind what's going on, like, what are the things that they need to look for?

[D]

I think that's where I still really like to go to the tabloids, like the US Weeklies or the peoples. Because that actually is what is typically coming directly from the celebrity or someone in their camp, their publicist. When it says, like, a source close to Brad Pitt, that's his publicist, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So I always find it interesting to just see when they're putting something out, what is actually being said. And so then you can kind of tell, okay, so that's what they want you to think. And then try to match that up with what's actually happening on social media. And then another thing is pay attention to the framing of paparazzi photos. If it's really long lens and they're catching somebody on a balcony, they probably don't know that they're being photographed. But if they're walking down the street with a coffee cup and, like, holding hands to someone, that is something that has been, like, set up. So I always think it's. It's interesting to try to find the distance between, like, what they're putting out there and what's actually happening. And that's what I try to do with the newsletter. But anyone can try to do that as well.

[B]

Is it still lucrative to take paparazzi photos? Like, is there a. Still a thriving micro economy for paparazzi photographers?

[D]

What's interesting, I actually did a story about this during the pandemic. Short answer. No, it's not. Because celebrities now, if they have a pregnancy, they can choose to just put it out on Instagram. So that really lessens the value of, you know, a photo of someone being pregnant. But actually, in the pandemic, the paparazzi had, like, a little bit of a resurgence because they were the only ones able to, like, get celebrities sometimes because everyone was in their houses. I don't know if you remember, like, Ben Affleck was dating Ana de Armas at the time, and the paparazzi would just camp out on his street and wait for him to come out and get his Dunkin Donuts coffee. And those photos actually, like, sold for more than they would have in another time because we were just so starved for any content. But now it's kind of rebalanced a little. Bit. And there are still photographers who make like, a really good living as paparazzi, but it's actually the people who really work with celebrities. There's a photographer named Diggsy, and he's known as kind of like Rihanna's main paparazzi photographer. He did her actual, like, pregnancy announcement paparazzi photos that were like more of a photo shoot.

[B]

Oh. So it's like having an official White House photographer, but this is like your official Rihanna photographer.

[D]

It's like your pool photographer. Yeah. He probably makes good money because he's the only one who had the first photo of Rihanna being pregnant. But your average paparazzi photographer, not as much anymore. Not like the golden age of Rez Hilton and all that in the middle.

[B]

I noticed when Michael B. Jordan went to In N Out after he won the Oscar, there was one account where there was video of it that was like the good video of it, you know, and not like everybody's cell phone cameras with the bad angles.

[D]

Yeah. My guess is that his publicist said, we're going here.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I want to ask you about a couple of specific celebrity things that have been going on. One is Brooklyn Beckham and Nicola Peltz.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Where. Where do you stand on this?

[D]

Okay. I am obsessed with this story. I don't know if you just saw. Bridget Reed did, like a really great story in. In New York magazine about it. She talked to, like, a bunch of

[B]

people and give folks some context. Like, just set it up.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, yeah, Sorry. I guess I just shouldn't assume that everyone is as deeply embed this story as we are. But yes, please go ahead.

[D]

So Brooklyn Beckham is the oldest son of Posh and Beck's, you know, Victoria Beckham, David Beckham. And he's had this really public break with his parents as of a couple months ago. But this has really been building since he got married to Nicola Peltz in 2022. And she is not as famous, but the daughter of a billionaire investor type guy, Nelson Peltz. It all kind of came to a head at their wedding. I guess there. There was a falling out about Marc Anthony dedicating a song to Victoria instead of Nicola. There was drama about the dress, drama about the guest list. And I think Brooke Lynn is just really trying to separate himself from his family. You know, I hate to see a family feud. I don't. It's. It's sad, but I think. I think it is really interesting. They're both. Both sides are kind of trying to control the narrative. And I think the Harder they both try, the worse it's looking for all of them. So maybe there's a lesson in there somewhere.

[C]

Yeah, it's like they've all sort of Streisand affected themselves.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

You know, they just continually are calling more and more attention to the whole situation.

[B]

There was something very raw about Brooklyn Beckham's initial Instagram story that felt very authentic and real. But are you're essentially saying the fact that this has kept going has just made it just gotten mud on everybody?

[D]

Well, yeah, I think they've both been leaking to the tabloids. Bridget goes into this in her story for New York Magazine. But like, there's clearly a Posh and Beck's reporter at the Daily Mail that's been like seeding a lot of stuff. And then Nicola and Brooklyn have been going more to like the US weeklies and the more the American tabloids. And so even like a lot of what he said in his statement was already out there in the tabloids in some form or fashion, like Source has said. You know, I think they've both been feeding it for so long that now it's hard to, to really pick a winner. At least that's how I feel. Maybe they'll have the best day ever and have this reunion and they'll be able to sell a show on Netflix about it and then, you know, we'll watch that. So I guess we'll see.

[C]

Okay. The other thing I want to ask you about is, and you wrote about this in your newsletter this past week, is Taylor Swift's wedding and Bachelorette. What is going on here? What is happening?

[D]

The reports have been really mixed whether this is going to be actually a huge wedding or like a very small, locked down wedding. To me, the most interesting part is like, who's in the bridal party and like, who are the actual close friends involved? Because with Taylor, it always seems to shift, like year to year. There are rumors that she's had a big falling out with Kelly Teller, who is Miles Teller's wife. But Miles is really close with Travis Kelce, so we'll have to wait and see if she's involved in any capacity. Obviously the Blake Lively Taylor Swift falling out has been going on for, you know, the last year or so. And we don't know if Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds will be involved at all. Even though Taylor is supposedly the godmother to like three of their children, which I've always wondered, how does that work? You pick the same godmother for like every child. That's not my Catholic tradition, but I don't know.

[B]

As a godmother, I don't want too many godchildren.

[D]

We're, like, all from the same. I don't know. I always thought you, like, mix it around, but the wedding itself is supposed to be in Rhode island in June, so we don't have too long to wait to kind of see what happens. And she's supposed to be having multiple bachelorette parties before that to make sure all the girls in the squad can attend. So I'm really looking forward to seeing, like, what leaks out about that, because I'm sure stuff will.

[C]

Oh, 100%.

[B]

Ali, I want to broaden out to ask now that our attention is so divided and media has fragmented so severely, how do you know? What are your tells for when something in entertainment has really reached monoculture?

[D]

That's a great question. Usually, like, if I hear from my dad about it, I'm like, oh, oh, that's your.

[B]

That's your barometer.

[D]

Yeah. If it's reached, like, the Wall Street Journal audience or, like, the New York Times or, you know, the. The boomers are getting it, then I think has become monoculture and not just TikTok discourse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And what got you into, like, what's fascinating to you about celebrity gossip in the first place?

[D]

I think I'm just, like, a regular gossip. And I have always been really interested in, like, people's relationships and. And how they're presenting them. And, you know, I started my career in journalism and then found talking about celebrities to be more interesting than the other stuff that I was doing at the time and just sort of kept gravitating toward it. And now, I mean, you can argue, like, we have a celebrity president, unfortunately, like, it crosses over so many parts of our culture. And I also think celebrity gossip can often, like, tell us where we are as a society. Even this summer house scandal, for example, I think it's telling us how we feel about cheating in this day and age, betraying a friend. What does marriage mean? Like, all the reactions that we're seeing can inform us of, like, where we are as a culture on certain issues. And I just find that endlessly fascinating. And I like talking about celebrities as much as I like talking about celebrities in my life, like, people I went to high school with or things like that, too.

[B]

In covering all of this culture stuff, what have you learned about optics and reputational management? Mentioned that the president, in a lot of ways, arguably is a celebrity president. So in that sense, he's done this whole reputational management Thing really well, because it's gotten him to the Oval Office in these high echelons of power. I mean, there's obvious downsides to this. That's an understatement. But like, what have you learned about sort of the art of this?

[D]

Well, I think you're right that it is an art and there are many different approaches that, that people can take. Someone like Chrissy Teigen is definitely someone who wants to speak for herself and put a lot out there herself. And I think sometimes that's effective and sometimes it's really not for her. I'm trying to think of an example of someone who I think does this really well. I did a story about Taylor Swift's publicist, tree pain. Tree pain?

[B]

Yeah. Hunter Harris was obsessed with tree pain.

[D]

Yes, yes. So I did sort of a right around profile of her for the Wall Street Journal like a year or so ago. If you want to talk about like an old school celebrity publicist, there really is an art to it. And Taylor Swift has really utilized her to only release things when she wants them to be released. I talked to somebody for this story who was interviewing someone who was opening act for Taylor Swift. This was years ago. In order to be able to like walk through the stadium where they were performing to meet this other person, they had to like sign an NDA and say they won't reveal anything they see or hear about Taylor Swift. Like if Taylor Swift walks down the hallway, you're not allowed to report it. So that is someone who is like not leaving anything to chance at all. And she's like the most popular entertainer right now. So that approach is working for her.

[B]

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That's the word it really is, which

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[C]

You mentioned Dubois and I'm I'm wondering how you know other celebrity gossip. I don't know platforms like, like Reddit for example, or podcasts and De moi. Like how are they all feeding into the ecosystem right now?

[D]

Yeah, I think the, the podcast thing is really interesting. I don't know if you guys follow Jake Shane. He's kind of like an influencer who also has like a really popular podcast that celebrities go on and someone was just interviewing him and they were like, if a celebrity says something and, and they wish they didn't on a podcast, like, do you cut it out? And he was like, oh, of course. Like, I would all. I will always take their request. I'll always cut it out. I'm. And I think journalists listening to that are like, ah. But I think podcasts have become a huge way for a celebrity to get a message out there and know that they can be a little more in control of it than they would in like a traditional magazine interview. Even like, they'd rather go on Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard. I don't know what his editing policy is, but I think they would rather do that than sit down with the New York Times. Like, they just don't, they don't need to sit down with someone who's going to be even a little bit adversarial anymore. So a lot of the stories we're getting I think are like incomplete or like I'm always like wishing that there was a follow up question. Even like the call her daddies of the world. Like, I'm with Alex Cooper. I'm like, ask a question.

[C]

They're not journalists.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But also just be a little bit more curious. This is how I feel about Rogan. Like When Rogan had RFK Jr. On, it's like, dude, just follow it up. Yeah, where did you get that information, for example? And often that question will lead you to a guy who's on blogger.com still, you know, one guy who's claiming something outlandish.

[C]

So.

[D]

Right, right. So I think, I think the, the, the podcast boom has, has really, really changed how stories out there. And, and I think it's kind of for the worse for, for the consumer anyway because I mean, I think some people just like to watch their favorite celebrity talk and that's enough for them. But I think other people would prefer to have like a more complete story and that's not happening as much anymore.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, people love the insight and the analysis that you bring to Gossip Time though. So what do you feel like is missing and that people are craving that allows you to continue doing what you do?

[D]

Yeah, I think, I think people really do want to know. Like, okay, so Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are getting married. Like, are they really in love? Like, that is like the like DMs. I get there. Like, do you think this is real? Like, is this. I think there's a sense that things can be faked and people are Constantly trying to figure out, like, am I. I being lied to right now? Or, like, am, you know, am I being, like, sold a story? And people really do want to know, like, what. What is this person like in real life? Is this their real relationship? Is this their real friend? And I think I kind of try to tease out what. What we can tell about that based on what they're telling us and. And what we're finding out from other sources. And I think people are kind of, like, endlessly interested in that.

[B]

Do you feel like, because there are cameras everywhere or people who are listening and watching and posting everywhere, that to be a star today, you have to be less of an asshole? Like, there's fewer asshole celebrities.

[D]

That's a really good question. I haven't really thought about this. I think that certainly there. There have been recent, like, stories about people kind of behaving badly behind the scenes. Like, you know. You know, you heard all the stuff about Ellen when she was kind of ending her show, and James Corden. I think that it. It probably is harder because people can. You know, if you start yelling in the middle of a restaurant, someone can record you. But the. But I also think that you would be surprised how much doesn't get out as well. I think that, like, sometimes, like, people can hold on to information for a long time. Like with the whole Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni lawsuit at the very beginning of that, obviously there was huge backlash to Blake Lively while she was promoting. It ends with us. Now the court is going to determine whether that was, you know, like, retaliation on his part, yada, yada, yada. But, like, there was a TV reporter who held on to an interview she did with Blake Lively for, like, eight years in which Blake Lively was, like, kind of rude, and then she released it in the midst of all this backlash. So I. Yeah, I think that there's probably, like, an unflattering story about every celebrity right now that someone is sitting on, and they're just waiting for the right opportunity to themselves by using it.

[B]

Gosh, it certainly does not make being famous desirable at all. Like, to think that there's landmines everywhere.

[D]

No, but what made me think of

[B]

this is that there's a sound guy that I work with on. On this documentary I've been making, and he has worked with so on so many sets with so many people, and a lot of the folks that he worked with were kids who are now adults. You know, like Zendaya when she was a kid or Bella Thorne when they were on that show together. And he's like, the thing about having cameras everywhere and the kids being on social media and having to be influencer slash actors is that generally there's fewer asshole kids. Because as kids they're like so used to being on camera all the time and having to be on pretty much all the time that you don't get the former privacy that you had, like when the. When the directors yelled cut and you could just turn into a little twerk, you know, and so I want.

[D]

That's horrible, though. We put these kids to work and then we. They can't even be rude. There is something kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

There's something so sad about a child actor to me. Performative.

[B]

Yeah. Having to be performative all the time. Yeah.

[D]

And then. Yeah, I think it's not a great way to grow up, but I guess we need children in movies and television shows.

[B]

We've seen the documentaries. Yeah.

[D]

All right.

[B]

Before we let you go, what are you consuming that you're really into and what do you feel like is tired or played out?

[D]

I think the Strangers memoir by Bell Burden is really worth your time. It's sort of like gossip adjacent, really. I really appreciate how willing she was to go there and talking about the financial side of her marriage. I don't know if you guys have read it. I read it and I was just

[C]

read it telling Dory, like, you know what?

[B]

I did want to read it because I was like, okay, you grew up on Martha's Vineyard or whatever. And like, I didn't. I just didn't relate to her upper crust life. But then I thought the actual telling of it was lovely and very complex and multi dimensional.

[D]

Yeah. And I, I think it. It's just an interesting window into sort of like the modern upper class society in New York that like, I'm not a part of at all, but still exists and is and is very real. And so that is obviously, you know, it's a bestseller and it's being super hyped, but I would still recommend it.

[B]

Okay. And then anything you're like played out. This is tired.

[D]

You know, that's. Let me think a minute. I think a lot of the stuff actually on Dumois, I feel like is like when people are just reporting that someone was at a restaurant. I'm over that.

[B]

People eat.

[D]

Yeah. I think. I think some of the write ins are just not interesting to me. Like there's no story behind it.

[B]

Thank you so much, Ali Jones, for coming on.

[D]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

You were fantastic. And how can folks find you so

[D]

My newsletter is called Gossip Time. You can just Google it. It's on substack and I'm also on Instagram. Ally Riley Jones and I post other stuff there.

[C]

Okay, amazing.

[D]

Thank you. Mm.

[C]

All right. That was so lovely. She was a joy. And she has just such a, like, good take on celebrity gossip. It's like her new self.

[B]

You know what we forgot to ask her about, though? And I'm really excited about this is the Devil Wears Prada tour, because Meryl Streep and Anna Hathaway have been hanging out in Japan and Korea and all over the place together.

[C]

Well, and Meryl Streep and Anna Wintour

[B]

did that, like, photo, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Next time.

[C]

All right. Well, Elise, last week you said you were going to be present. Do you feel like you were.

[B]

I had some moments. I had some moments that I think became great memories. Like.

[C]

Oh, that's nice.

[B]

Luna just turned 9, and we spent spring break in Scottsdale. And there were. There was this lake that Rob lives by when. Because he lives part of the time in Arizona. And there's these embankments, you know, obviously, that go that as you get closer to the lake. And Luna just wanted to roll down the grassy knolls. Just roll down. Roll down hills. I mean, we did not tell her they were covered with duck poop. Just best. Best left unsaid.

[C]

All right.

[B]

But she just had so much free fun just rolling down the hills near the lake. And I thought to myself, next year, she's not going to want to do that anymore. She will have outgrown it, you know, and so I'm really glad that we just took the time to, like, throw the football around and let her roll down grassy knolls and do things like that. Ditto with my other daughter Issa, too. You know, we had some, like, one on one time and we went and did nails, just me and her. And so, yeah, it was really nice, and I'm glad that we got got to do that. So this week is another travel week, so I'm going to make my intention fiber. Oh.

[C]

In honor of Dr. Trisha Patricia.

[B]

And in honor of my general gut health. But yes.

[C]

But we did discuss pooping whilst traveling with her. So.

[B]

Lovely.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

I'm happy for you and your colon.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Thank you so much. So last week, my intention was about hosting because we were hosting a little Passover Seder.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

With one of Henry's friends and his family, who I'm also friends with. And it went great. It went really well. Henry was so happy. He was kind of a nightmare the next day, but. But that night he was really happy and it was, it was really nice to see him, like, so proud to post. And he's being really sweet with his friend and also his friend's parents picked him up from school from aftercare, which was awesome. And just brought them both to our house.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And they're both, they're both only children.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So I think it was nice. Like, she was, like, they were so chatty in the car and like, it was just like, it was very sweet. So it was, it went, it went really, really, really well. So I was very happy about that. Yeah. Okay. And then this week I have a couple, like, potentially fun work things coming up, so just gonna try to like, lean into the, the fun aspect of it and not get stressed.

[B]

Great.

[C]

So I'm excited about that. New tennis season starts this weekend, so that's exciting. You know, there's always a new tennis season around the corner.

[B]

That's true. I. I didn't even know they ended,

[C]

but yes, they, they barely end.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So, you know, that's always, that's always fun. The spring season, I think, is like the most fun season. Okay, good.

[B]

All right, so it's gonna be sort of like, just have fun.

[C]

Yeah. Is your intention fun? Yeah, I think just have fun. Just kind of. I mean, it's kind of related, I think, to your intention from last week. Like be present. Like just sort of like lean into the presentness of it all.

[B]

Love that.

[C]

Okay, thank you. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is a cat. Thanks, everyone.

[B]

Talk to you soon.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

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