Episode 399: Joyspotting with Alex Elle

Summary

Forever35 - Episode 399: Joyspotting with Alex Elle

Release Date: April 27, 2026
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guest: Alex Elle, author and wellness educator

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Doree and Elise welcome Alex Elle—New York Times bestselling author, wellness educator, and restorative writing teacher—for an honest conversation about self-care, gratitude, friendship, boundaries, and intentional living. Alex introduces practices for “joyspotting” and journaling, discusses her new book The Company We Keep: Friendship, Connection, and Redefining What It Means to Grow Together, and shares actionable wisdom about creating and sustaining meaningful relationships as adults.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Self-Care Routines and Social Media Fatigue

• The hosts discuss their ongoing efforts to be more intentional in daily routines—especially wardrobe choices, sun care, and social posting.
  • Doree shares her commitment to sun protection, noting her focus is not just on signs of aging but on preventing skin cancer. She details her visit to the dermatologist, who praised her skincare routine and protective measures. (05:00)
  • Both hosts commiserate about feeling social media fatigue, and how their usage ebbs and flows with personal and professional demands. Elise describes shifting from Twitter to Instagram and TikTok, sharing that, “I try to just feed the beast a little bit … Even if it’s St. Louis for a volleyball tournament.” (07:15)

2. Programming Update for Listeners

• The show announces a move to once-weekly episodes (alternating between catch-ups/interviews and listener mailbags), plus continued Patreon-exclusive casual chats. (08:34)

3. Introducing Alex Elle and Self-Care Practices

• Alex Elle joins as a guest and kicks off the interview by sharing her current self-care anchor: hot Pilates.
  • “I’m a reformer Pilates girl and have been for about a year … that sweat with a hot class, there is nothing like it.” (12:53)
  • Alex speaks about how Pilates grounds her, especially as someone diagnosed with ADHD later in life: “I have this 50 minutes for just me, no kids saying mama, nobody needing anything from me, no emails … it’s definitely a clarifier.” (13:37)

4. Gratitude Practice: Holding Grief and Gratitude Together

• Alex unpacks how her approach to gratitude has evolved:
  • “I’ve really been leaning into what it means to hold grief and gratitude together … finding the glimmers of joy to touch gratitude while I have been grieving.” (14:49)
  • She rejects the simplistic “just be grateful” advice, emphasizing that true gratitude requires keeping the door open even through pain and transition.

5. Friendship and Accountability: The Company We Keep

• Alex discusses the central question of her new book—why the company we keep matters, and how it shapes us.
  • The book title emerged naturally: “The company we keep is important ... [it] isn’t just about who we’re keeping around us. It’s like, who are we around other people? How are we adding to other people’s lives?” (16:26)
  • Alex wants her book to be used in “friend book clubs” and as a tool for honest reflection and accountability.

Memorable Quote:

“We are the common denominators in our relationships. How are we playing roles in other people’s lives? And where are we dropping the ball? Where are we still learning? Where are we still tender?” —Alex Elle (18:35)

On Expectations in Relationships

• Elise asks about responsibilities in relationships, and Alex refutes the trend of denying expectations:
  • “People are like ‘I don’t owe anybody anything’... That is BS. We do have expectations of people … There is nothing wrong for having those needs and expectations and desires.” (19:23)
  • Alex describes her circle’s practice of checking in about capacity, even for sharing good news: “Hey sis, do you have capacity for this? Even if it’s a joyful moment … Sometimes the homegirls are like, I wish I did. These kids got me in the trenches." (21:00)

6. Honesty and Boundaries in Adult Friendships

• Alex reflects that entering her mid-30s brought clarity about limits and intentionality in relationships. She describes dissolving friendships to protect her own (and others’) energy. (26:18)
  • “I had to realize that I was at capacity and I wanted to show up in the relationships I already had, really intentionally. … I would much rather someone say, ‘I like you, but I don’t have time for this relationship,’ and that’s hard to hear.” (27:41)

How to Evaluate Your Own Capacity for Friendship:

• Alex recommends journaling or voice memo-ing honestly about your desires and limits. (29:21)
  • “If we are showing up knowing that we can’t, knowing that we don’t want to, that is deceitful and it’s a form of manipulation, even if we don’t mean it to be.” (29:40)
  • She stresses that self-abandonment is not an act of love and is harmful, especially for women: “I think it shows our children that being selfless in an unhealthy way is how they get love, and that is not true.” (31:06)

7. Personal Lessons and Growth Through Writing

• Writing her new book led Alex to realize her own avoidance tactics around hard conversations and the impact of modeling unhealthy patterns from childhood. (32:31)
  • “A lot of what I wrote about … was me calling myself out of that comfort of avoidance … My friendships are so beautiful … I’m committed to working on myself always so I can be as intentional as I can for the people around me.” (33:00)

8. Journaling Tips and “Joyspotting”

• Alex shares accessible journaling practices for self-awareness:

  • Instead of long-form journaling, she now uses a planner for “joy spotting”: “I put little pockets of joy in each of the boxes, and I call it joy spotting. … It’s an invitation back to gratitude and the moment, and it’s a low lift thing.” (34:51)

  • She stresses journaling doesn’t have to be elaborate: “Even if it’s just one line a day, one word a day—at the end of the month, you have all these beautiful words that came up for you.” (36:12)

  • Doree shares she’s kept a one-line-a-day journal for 7 years, calling it “such a chronicle of what was going on.” (36:36)

9. Staying Curious to Connect with Yourself and Others

• Alex’s top advice for deeper self-knowing and connection:
  • “Stay curious about what we truly want and need. … I’m a big believer in women being autonomous and not centering everyone else and then putting herself at the bottom of the list.” (37:14)
  • She emphasizes not outsourcing self-knowledge: “Stop avoiding yourself to get other people to do your work, because that’s not how it works. And it won’t work.” (39:35)

Notable Quote:

“How do I need to move myself up to the top of my list? What brings me joy today? … Staying curious about our own needs—that’s the work.” —Alex Elle (37:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If we are showing up knowing that we can’t, knowing that we don’t want to, that is deceitful and it’s a form of manipulation, even if we don’t mean it to be.” —Alex Elle (29:40)
• “[Self-abandonment] is very, very dangerous, especially for women. I think it’s harmful. I think it shows our children that being selfless in an unhealthy way is how they get love, and that is not true.” —Alex Elle (31:06)
• “Journaling doesn’t have to be long form. Even if it’s just one line a day—at the end of the month, you have all these beautiful words that came up for you.” —Alex Elle (36:12)
• “My friendships have invited me to stop avoiding the hard things, to name the hard things, to make space for repair, and to meet people where they are meeting us.” —Alex Elle (33:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [12:53] Alex introduces her self-care practice: hot Pilates
• [14:49] Exploring grief and gratitude together
• [16:26] Why the book is titled The Company We Keep
• [19:23] On expectations and accountability in relationships
• [21:00] Homegirl “capacity checks” in friendships
• [26:18] Adult friendship challenges and recognizing capacity limits
• [29:21] How to evaluate friendship capacity (journaling/voice notes)
• [31:06] The dangers of self-abandonment in relationships
• [32:31] Personal growth through writing and tackling avoidance
• [34:51] Practical journaling tips and “joyspotting”
• [37:14] Staying curious with yourself for deeper connection

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Closing Thoughts

The episode wraps with Alex encouraging listeners to remain curious about themselves as the foundation to meaningful relationships, and to use reflective practices—even light-touch ones like “joyspotting”—to nurture joy and clarity. Both Doree and Elise reflect on their own routines and re-centering efforts, echoing many of Alex’s themes about intentionality and self-compassion.

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For More:

• Alex Elle’s new book: The Company We Keep
• Journaling practices and friendship reflection prompts can be found in the book and on Alex Elle’s platforms.

Transcript

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[Dori Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dori Shafrier]

And today we have Alex L. On the show who is a really, really interesting person and I think so insightful about so many things that like I care about and that our listeners care about.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, she came highly requested by listeners. So we did a call out on our Patreon for who we should have on forever 35 and somebody's like you need to have on Alex L. And then other folks I think chimed in, um, you all probably know her because over the last, I think from the pandemic and on. She's been very well known on Instagram and other places for her books and her writing and her thoughts about how to get introspective, how to heal ourselves, the work that we need to do, kind of at the soul level. And she's out with a new book which we're going to talk about later in the show.

[Dori Shafrier]

But in the meantime. Yeah, here we are. As this is airing. I am still at Disney World.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah. In your UV protective clothing.

[Dori Shafrier]

In my UV protective clothing. You know, I will post some pictures of my Disney, Disney World fits great. It has been suggested that I become a sun care influencer.

[Elise Hu]

I could see that.

[Dori Shafrier]

I could see that I'm ready for this journey for me. I just, I did just go to my dermatologist. Oh, I haven't even talked about this because you were at ted and so I feel like there was a week of things that happened.

[Alex L.]

Right.

[Dori Shafrier]

We just have not discussed. One of which is that I went to my dermatologist and he was like, your skin looks great.

[Elise Hu]

Great.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I was like, great. Because there's skin cancer in my family. So, you know, I have to be very vigilant, which is also part of the reason why I, I do, you know, I kind of joke about it. But I do take like the sun care stuff very seriously. Not just because of like sun damage and wrinkles, but because of actual skin cancer. So to get a clean bill of health for my dermatologist every year is like, I like, you know, very pleased by that. But I also told him that I wear a mask when I play tennis and he was like, delighted by this news. So clean bill of health from the dermatologist and continuing to be fully covered up. I will, you know, I will also. I mentioned this on the. I think on the casual chat that I bought a pair of my. Another pair of my favorite legging tennis skirt combo. We will link to it in the show notes. It is from a brand called Lucky in Love that makes tennis clothing, I think, pretty much exclusively.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

And they have these leggings, they call them skeggings, which, like the worst portmanteau, doesn't sound.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Appealing.

[Dori Shafrier]

It does not sound appealing. But what I like about them is that unlike some other, like some other brands that make these, they make them to keep warm. So the leggings are quite thick, whereas this brand makes them for sun protection. So the leggings are actually very thin. Like you would not want to wear the leggings without the Skirt covering your butt, but that's good because they're not too thick.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know what I'm saying?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. It's like a cross between tights.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. And, like. Exactly. Exactly.

[Elise Hu]

You should consider, or at least just start putting some stuff out consistently on your Instagram about Sun Care, and then maybe brands will come to you.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. You know, I have been. You know, I was just thinking about this. I've been, like, so bad about social media lately. I don't know if it's just, like,

[Elise Hu]

you don't care about it as much.

[Alex L.]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

It's like. It's like I have this fatigue about it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

I feel like you're really good about it, though.

[Elise Hu]

I kind of got more into it. I get. I have waves, you know?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I got more into it when my book was about to come out, and I, like, had to do it, and it put me into a place where I was, like, more consistent on Instagram. I never really did Instagram that much back when Twitter was around, because I hung out on Twitter, and then Twitter kind of ended around 2022 or. Yeah. Like, just before my book came out, actually, so. Or it became the hellscape that it is now. I don't even. I, I. I honestly don't know what it looks like. And so. And so then I had to be more intentional about Instagram. And then I started making tiktoks for the first time, and I kind of just liked it that I did different things on each. And I found TikTok to be fun because it's so experimental, and it's not really your friends, it's just randos. And that was cool. And then. But then I have periods where I'm just, like, burned out, and I'm like, I don't. You know, I don't really want to keep up with it. But lately, now that I kind of got back from that Ins. Instagram Influencer tennis camp.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Which is such a string of words that I just put together there. But now I'm sort of like, okay, I kind of know how to just feed the beast a little bit. Like, if there's. If I'm out of town, I'll put something up about the trip. I try to just like to mark the place, Even if it's St. Louis for a volleyball tournament. And then if there's kind of fun stuff going on or there's friends that I can hype or celebrate.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Like, I try to hype my friends. Like, and then people will ask, you know, our friend Marissa Renee Lee, for example, I'll just shout her out. She has an event in Dallas coming up. And she was like, hey, will you let folks know about this? And we were like, great, of course we will let people know about it.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, so she is in conversation with Dr. Lizzie Cleary, who has been on the show and is like, was like an OG. Forever 35 listener, has been a longtime supporter of the show. We love Lizzie. She's great. So I love that the two of them are in conversation. I don't know. There's just like a lovely Forever 35 connection there. So maybe some listeners will go, yeah,

[Elise Hu]

so I mean, if there's something that you care about enough to post about, in case it's skincare. Skincare or sun care, you know, sun care.

[Dori Shafrier]

No, exactly. This will, maybe this will be my, my hard launch as a, as a sun care influencer.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, speaking of things that we need to announce, we are sure that we are going to once weekly episodes of Forever 35. So starting May 4, we are going to go to once weekly episodes that will come out on Mondays and we will alternate between our standard Monday episodes that you know and love, which are Dori and Elise catch ups, followed by a great interview. And then on the off weeks, every other week we're going to have full length listener feedback in Mailbag and that's what is featured in our current mini episodes. But the mini episodes will get expanded to full length and we're going to hear from you, we're going to hear your voicemails, we're going to hear your text messages, your emails, and then your recommendations. Except we'll just get to do it for a longer amount of time. So forever 35 is going to go weekly. It's going to be on Mondays where you expect us anyway. And we will still do casual chats that are available to our Patreon subscribers every Friday.

[Dori Shafrier]

It's very exciting. So keep your voicemails and texts and emails coming. And as a reminder, you can send those to us at forever35podcastmail.com or 781-591-0390. You can also visit our website forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram @Fever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com Forever35. So if you still want to hear us more than once a week, you can head over to Patreon, support us at the $5 level and you get access to our weekly casual chat, which is not going anywhere. It is also now on video. We also are doing casual chats with our Patreon supporters. Every like three months or so we have a community chat on the Patreon app, a lot more and at 10amonth you also get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. And you can shop our favorite products at shopmy us./forever35 Elise, do you want to introduce Alex?

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Alex L. Is a New York Times bestselling author, wellness educator and restorative writing teacher with more than a decade of experience. Her latest book is called the Company We Keep Friendship, Connection and Redefining what It Means to Grow Together. Her writing journey began as a personal therapeutic practice that has evolved into a career centered on healing through journaling, self study and mindfulness. Through her books, workshops, courses and retreats, Alex helps others cultivate self discovery and expand their capacity for joy, clarity and meaningful connection. So all things that we love here at Forever35. Her work is grounded in the belief that literature and language serve as powerful tools for both personal and collective healing.

[Dori Shafrier]

We are going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Alex.

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[Dori Shafrier]

Alex l. Welcome to Forever35. We're so happy to have you.

[Alex L.]

Hey guys, thank you for having me with you today. I'm excited to dive in and and chat all things the company keep well.

[Dori Shafrier]

We always start off by asking our guests same question which is what is a self care practice that you have?

[Alex L.]

Oh there's A few. But recently it has been hot Pilates. I'm a reformer Pilates girl and have been for about a year. I'm actually getting my 500 hour teacher training certificate to be a teacher. But I was anti mat for a long time and then I took a class and fell in love. And I still love the performer. But that sweat with a hot glass, there is nothing like it.

[Elise Hu]

I'm not into it. I don't like hot, you know, I don't like hot yoga or hot Pilates. I go every once in a while just to like sweat stuff out but good. And that's making you feel kind of refreshed afterwards and it makes, makes your body feel good.

[Alex L.]

It's making me feel really grounded and clear. I got diagnosed with ADHD when I was 34. I'll be 37 this year. And so being on the mat and being on the reformer, I to really pay attention. So it helps me truly listen so I don't hurt myself or hurt my body and be in the room. There's no phone, there's no none of that. And so it really helps me feel like, okay, I have this 50 minutes for just me, no kids saying mama, nobody needing anything from me, no emails. So yeah, it's definitely a clarifier.

[Elise Hu]

Good. Okay. Well, Alex, you come highly requested by our listeners. So before, I think you've just guided and helped so many folks who maybe you'll never get to meet, but you've helped them in their own wellness practices and in their own introspection. So before we get into the new book, as somebody that we turn to for practicing gratitude, how have you changed or expanded your own gratitude practice and in the time you've spent teaching it to others?

[Alex L.]

That's a great question. I think lately, especially over the past couple of years, I've really been leaning into what it means to hold grief and gratitude together and what it means to be not just be grateful. Because we hear that so much growing up. Like, you should just be grateful, right? You should just take what you're given and be grateful. And that's not how life works. That's not how my life works. And over the past couple of years, I've had a lot of changes happen. And I have had to find the glimmers of joy to touch gratitude. While I have been grieving, grieving the different versions of myself, grieving relationships falling apart, grieving the life I thought I wanted to have, the woman I thought I would be, and understanding that I'm still allowed to touch joy and to be grateful and to, like, have gratitude wrap its itself around me while I'm in these moments of stickiness and maybe pain and hurt and confusion. And for me personally, I think that gratitude can only be experienced if we're willing to keep the door open to it.

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, your book is called the Company We Friendship, Connection and Redefining what It Means to Grow Together. And your book is out in a couple of weeks, which is very exciting. Congratulations.

[Alex L.]

Thank you.

[Dori Shafrier]

But I'd love to know, like, what is so important about the company we keep? Why did you name your book the Company We Keep?

[Alex L.]

Well, funny story. So initially the book was going to be called the Winning Circle.

[Dori Shafrier]

Oh, wow. That's a very different title.

[Alex L.]

It's a very different title. And now that I look back at it, I was like, that was not the title. In an opening paragraph of an essay I had written. The company we keep is important. Da, da, da. Whatever. I said. And me and my partner were reading through it and he was like, that's the name of the book. And I said, what? The Company We Keep. And I. And he was like, yes. I was like, I was thinking the same thing. So we changed it. Growing up, we hear so much too, about, like, watch the company you keep, be mindful of who you keep around you. And. And a lot of times it's from a place of scarcity and kind of like negativity versus this. Lean in to be like, ooh, let me take inventory of not only the company I'm keeping, but the type of company I am to other people. And what does. What does friendship mean? What do relationships mean? And how am I being present in those and holding myself accountable in those. So the company we keep isn't just about, like, who we're keeping around us. It's like, who are we around Other people? How are we adding to other people's lives? I wrote the Company We Keep because I wanted to give people real life, relatable experiences, but also I wanted to allow people the space to get curious about themselves and their relationships. Like, that is what I want this book to do. I hope people read it in friend book clubs. I hope you give it to your mama, your daddy, everybody, everybody you are keeping company with, and answer honestly. There's a lot of reflection questions in there that I really encourage people to lean into. I want this book to be a support system. I want people to learn how to hold themselves accountable and be more honest within their relationships. This book is really important to me because it's a call in to self awareness and introspection. It's not just about like, what somebody else did to you and how, how somebody hurt you. It's not that. It's how. How are you. We are the common denominators in our relationships. How are we playing roles in other people's lives? And where are we dropping the ball? Where are we still learning? Where are we still tender? What do we want and need? And how can we lean deep or maybe look at this and be like, this relationship is no longer in alignment because we've been friends since I was 10 and now I'm 40. And we have not grown together and we don't have to stay anywhere just out of convenience. Right? So it's a call in to be honest, honestly on the accountability end of

[Elise Hu]

it, and taking accountability for ourselves. What do you think are our responsibilities in relationships with one another, to be clear?

[Alex L.]

About our expectations, about our desires, about what we need? And it's important to note that we have roles and responsibilities when we are in relationship with other people. Right? And in this day and age, people are like, I don't owe anybody anything. I don't have expectations. You know, it's just like, that is, that is bs. It is not helpful. We do have expectations of people. Whether or not they can meet those expectations is a whole nother conversation. But we have to be honest and be like, no, this is what. I do expect honesty in my relationships. I do expect respect in my relationships. I do expect reciprocity in my relationships. And there is nothing wrong for having those needs and expectations and desires. There's nothing wrong with people not being able to meet them, but they may not be your people that you keep close to you. Right. And so that's how I feel about that. Especially in this day and age where it's just like, we don't owe anybody anything. It's like you actually do.

[Dori Shafrier]

That's, I mean, this idea that like you do actually owe people something, I think is something that a lot of people right now don't want to come to terms with. Right.

[Alex L.]

But there's a difference though, between, listen, I do believe that we owe the people that we are choosing to be in relationships with something. Our time, our energy, our effort. Yes, I think, yes. Right. But there are also people who don't have time, energy or effort. So if you don't want to make that time, if you don't, if you literally do not have the capacity for it, then that's a separate conversation. Because when you are in relationships with people, you do Owe them pieces of yourself if you want healthy relationships. And we owe that communication when we can't. Something that me and my really close friends do. If we are at capacity, we check in with each other before we ask each other for anything. Hey, sis, do you have capacity for this? Even if it's a joyful moment? Because sometimes life is freaking hard, you know, and it's like, no, I don't have time for your joy today, girl. Like, so it's not said that way, but, you know, like, it's this honesty of, oh, hey, sis, you have a moment for joy today. Sometimes the homegirls are like, I wish I did. These kids got me in the trenches. I'm gonna have to tap in with you when I can be present with your joy, because you deserve that. And we're not having these types of conversations where it's like, leading with curiosity, leading with honesty about our capacity. And that is why so many people much rather ghost or let a relationship explode and not repair. Because people hate being honest. Because how dare I say I don't have capacity for your joy today? Sometimes you freaking don't. And that's okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. You know, I feel like we put so much effort into our skincare with all the serums, the treatments, facials, routines, et cetera, et cetera. But do we think about the thing touching our skin for eight hours every single night?

[Elise Hu]

Our sheets?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes. Let's spend some time considering our bedding.

[Alex L.]

Good point. Good point.

[Dori Shafrier]

Bowl and branch bedding, from their organic cotton sheets to their breathable pillows and comforters, is made with ultra clean materials that are gentle on skin and free from harsh chemicals. Their fabrics are breathable, soft, and temperature regulating so you're not overheating or tossing and turning. When your entire bed is made with better materials, it supports the kind of sleep that actually helps your skin recover over. Elise, we just got new bowl and branch sheets.

[Alex L.]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

And I'm kind of obsessed with them.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, I'm so excited.

[Dori Shafrier]

Super soft, but they also. They feel, like, substantial.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Alex L.]

Yeah.

[Dori Shafrier]

Like, I feel like I've gotten sheets in the past that just feel kind of flimsy. And these feel, like, really nice. Do you know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

They're lux.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Okay?

[Dori Shafrier]

It's the middle of the week. You want a home cooked meal, but you can't think of anything to cook except the same thing you cook every week.

[Elise Hu]

True story.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, it's like that's comfort food, but you want some adventure. But with hellofresh you can cook up bold flavors from around the world without ever leaving home. Which I think you actually did do recently.

[Elise Hu]

I sure did. I made the hellofresh classic beef tacos which everyone loves. It comes with restaurant style salsa and a little chipotle lime crema.

[Alex L.]

So we kind of, yeah, we made

[Elise Hu]

it a little more authentic for taco night. And it's classic, yet sure to satisfy. It was great for the whole family.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[Elise Hu]

Go to hellofresh.com forever35 10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free breakfast for life. One per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com forever35 10fm to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life. You started this book journey several years ago now I think back in 2022. What was going on at the time for you and how did it turn into the Animating questions of this book.

[Alex L.]

I think I was just at a turning point. Like, when I hit 35, things really changed for me. Like, what I wanted, what I needed, what the space that I wanted to take up in other people's lives, especially as an only child, and the space that I, you know, have in my life as a mother of three and a partner. You know what I mean? Like, it. Things were just shifting, and I was starting to see the newer friends in particular. It's hard to make new friends in our. In our adulthood, right? And a lot of the friendships that I have, which I have maybe 10 really close friends, we are really involved in each other's lives. We're each other's. Like, we are aunties to each other's kids. We are making money decisions together. We have each other's calendar, we have each other's location, where a lot of my friends are out of town. So we have to make intentional time to schedule to visit or talk on the phone, right? And so that is something that I deeply value. And I was realizing that the newer friends I was trying to become close with, we just didn't have that same capacity for each other. Because that's hard, you know, like, it's hard to add one more person to your life when you. Especially when you have kids, when you have spouses or partners or jobs, careers. Like, it's hard. And I think for me, I had to realize that I was at capacity and I wanted to show up in the relationships that I already had, really, really intentionally. And in order to do that, I had to allow some of those other friendships to fall away and not in a messy way. Some had conversations of closure, some didn't. And it was three friendships that I wrote about in the book that came that dissolved. But it required me to be honest with myself about what I wanted to show up for and who I wanted to show up for. Instead of pretending that I had the capacity to just hold everyone. I would much rather someone say, I like you, but I don't have time for this relationship. And that's hard to hear, right? But it's harder to start a friendship with somebody knowing you don't have capacity for them. Any type of relationship, for that matter. Do you want to be in this friendship or do you want to be liked?

[Elise Hu]

Oof. Your question that you were approaching was sort of, how sustainable? How much capacity do I have for these friendships? How sustainable are my newer friendships? What do you say to our listeners who are hearing this and trying to evaluate this question for themselves? How do we know? I mean, everybody's tank is. Their level in their tank is different. Right.

[Alex L.]

Is different.

[Elise Hu]

So are there certain questions that we should be asking ourselves that might get at that kind of clarity that you ended up finding?

[Alex L.]

The questions that we kind of just posed here. Grab your journal and write em down and really be honest about it. Take yourself on a walk and voice note especially. I love a voice note journaling moment because it's like that stream of consciousness. Then you go back and then you listen and then you take notes in your journal pages or what have you. And so you get kind of deeper clarity. But what I'm really wanting people to do is to start being honest and to stop lying to keep the peace. Some people may not agree. This is not going to sound fluffy at all. But if we are showing up knowing that we can't, knowing that we don't want to, that is deceitful and it's a form of manipulation, even if we don't mean it to be. And I wrote about this in the company we keep. I was looking at myself and being like, I know that I can't hold this relationship and yet I continue to show up. And then when I show up, it is not authentic. I'm kind of resentful and pissed that I even have to be there. And I'm lying to the person. They're excited to see me and they're excited to have me in the room. And I'm like, damn, I don't even want to be here at this birthday party. I could be. I could have other things to do.

[Elise Hu]

It's so funny that you mentioned that because I am kind of a mom who taps out on some of my mom group requirements just of like the other moms in the same grade, you know, like, I won't necessarily hang out. And it has to do with my amount of bandwidth and also having three kids under the age of 13. You know, like, there's only so much and so many activities and so much social bandwidth that I have or just emotional and energetic bandwidth. Right. But I think being intentional about that choice means that you're not lying to anyone either.

[Alex L.]

Yeah. And you're not lying and you're not lying to yourself like, oh, I can do it, I can do. I can just do it. Like, you don't want to do this thing. Like, stop. And I had to call myself in and I'm like, I am. I'm an honest person, I'm a generous person, I'm a loving person and I don't like who I am when I am stretching myself thin, when, in a way that abandons myself, especially when it comes to building healthy relationships. I don't believe that self abandonment is an act of love. I don't. I think it is very, very dangerous, especially for women. I think it is harmful. I think it shows our children that being selfless in an unhealthy way is how they get love. And that is not true. And so I had to really look at, like, all of these patterns that I picked up in childhood. Like, to be the good girl, to just show up and smile. Even though I'm suffering, I refuse to do that anymore. We're not doing it in an ugly, mean, harsh way. We're being honest and compassionate, and people much prefer that than us going along to get along and, like, being miserable.

[Elise Hu]

Was there anything in the process of researching and writing and doing some of the voice notes then became the book that you learned about yourself, that you. You have kind of actually applied and changed?

[Alex L.]

Oh, my gosh, I'm so avoidant. And a lot of this, a lot of what I wrote about in the Company We Keep was me calling myself out of that comfort of avoidance, right? Like, let's just brush it under the rug. Let's just go along to get along. And I realized as I was writing this book how often I was doing that in my life, and it made me quite sad. Um, and a part of that was looking at my childhood and looking at my relationship with my. The women in my life and how I've just seen them be martyrs and how I've also seen them deeply unhappy and how I've never seen them with close friends. And for me, I'm a big believer that friendship is just important. It has anchored me in so many different ways. The more I avoid myself and my longing for deep reciprocity and connection, the more I felt kind of just floating out at sea aimlessly with no anchor. And so when I think about my friendships, I think about how they have invited me sometimes in really tough love kind of ways to stop avoiding the hard things, to name the hard things, to make space for repair, and to meet people where they are meeting us. You know, like, my friendships are so beautiful. And as an only child, I have adopted all of my friends as family. And so it's like I am committed to working on myself always so that I can be as full, as intentional and intentional as I can for the people around me. My children, my friends, my work. I think that this writing, this book has nudged me in so Many ways to continue to lean in.

[Elise Hu]

Alex, you're a big journaler and you encourage journaling and you teach it what, How? For those who haven't gotten started or those of us who are like, oh, I'm going to start journaling and then abandon it quickly. What tips do you have?

[Alex L.]

So I used to be a long form journaler. I am no longer that. Especially as someone who writes books, it's really hard to be on the page sometimes. And so what I started doing is using a calendar, like a planner, and putting my spots of joy in them. So instead of using the planner to like, write out my day, I put little pockets of joy in each of the boxes and I call it joy spotting. And that is how I show up on the page these days. And I love it because it is an invitation back to gratitude. It's an invitation back to the moment, and it's a low lift thing. And then if I feel like, okay, I could dive deeper here, I will. But journaling doesn't have to be this dear Diary experience. It doesn't have to be depressing. It doesn't have to be any of those things. It can be totally, like, the page has space for us. But I think people get so intimidated also because of privacy. Right. Like, they've had their. Their personal journals violated in the past or, you know, and. And so there's so many different ways to kind of process these days from voice note journaling. And then you can, like put a lock, security lock on your voice memos so that, you know, it's like, safe with yourself. There's different ways to experience journaling. It doesn't have to be pen and paper. But I, as a writer, I'm always like, hey, let's get on the page and process. Even if it's just one line a day, one word a day. At the end of the month, you have all these beautiful words that came up for you. Right. And so it doesn't have to look one way because it isn't.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Dory has kept up with her one line a day journal for how many years now, Dori?

[Dori Shafrier]

It's been seven years now.

[Alex L.]

It's amazing.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, just one. I mean, I've tried. I used to journal more extensively when I was younger, and it just, it was like too much pressure almost to feel like I had to, you know, fill a page or something. But the one line is so doable. And now I look back and it's such a chronicle of what was going on. So, yeah, I love that.

[Alex L.]

Yeah, it's so special too.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah, it's really special. Alex, if there's one thing that we can do to kind of better know ourselves so we can better connect with others, what do you recommend?

[Alex L.]

What's been coming up for me lately is staying curious. Staying curious about what we truly want and truly need. And when we lead with curiosity, we make so much room for possibility in our lives. And I know that this may sound kind of like, well, what does that even mean for me? It's literally asking, like asking myself questions. Alex, what do you want out of this life? How do you want the love story of your life to be? I had a friend ask me that recently and she wasn't talking about an intimate partner, anything. She goes, what do you want your love story to look like with yourself? And I had to really think about that. Where do I see myself? I do a lot of visioning. Especially I have a 18 year old going off to college this year. She's going to art school. And then I have two little ones who are 8 and 6. And so I have all these different things happening in my life. Like I am, like, who am I outside of these children? Who am I outside of my roles in their life? What does that look like? And I'm a big believer in women being autonomous and not centering everyone else and then putting herself at the bottom of the list. I'm a big believer in that. So it's like, how do I need to move myself up to the top of my list? What brings me joy today, truly? What is pissing me the off? Like, and like also looking at that and not suppressing anger or annoyance or frustration. But all of that requires being curious, all of it. And I think a lot of people have this misconception about me that I'm very kind of peaceful and Zen and a little woo woo. And I am the most probably chaotic person anybody could ever meet. In a beautiful way, in a beautiful, curious way, I am peaceful. But I also have a lot of, you know, things that I wrestle with and that require me to inquire within before you know that outward validation, or which I love, sometimes I love outward validation, especially from my friends, like, am I doing this right? Like is. And I've had to learn you check in with you first. They don't. Even if they love you so, so much and they know you so, so well, you know yourself better. Stop avoiding yourself to get other people to do your work, because that's not how it works. And it, and it won't work.

[Elise Hu]

So yeah, that's A beautiful note to end on. Alex out. Thank you for opening yourself up to us, sharing so much of you with us, and then offering such actionable guidance

[Dori Shafrier]

for our listeners and writing such a beautiful book.

[Alex L.]

Thank you all for having me. I'm grateful.

[Dori Shafrier]

Alex was another one of those guests who I'm just like, I feel. Feel calmer after speaking with you. Elise, how did strength training go?

[Elise Hu]

It didn't. It didn't.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay.

[Mom]

All right.

[Dori Shafrier]

Okay, listen, I like the honesty. I'm gonna. I'm gonna just say we're gonna re up it.

[Elise Hu]

We're gonna have to re up it because it's very important. I can actually feel myself becoming weaker, if that's possible. So I. I don't know if it's like a placebo thing, because we put it into, like a reverse placebo because we put it out into the universe that I was going to do this and I didn't. And then I'm like, oh, I can. Yeah, we're. We're just gonna have to re up it. But what about you?

[Dori Shafrier]

You know, Elise, I have actually also been thinking lately that, like, I kind of miss the gym, and I'm like, oh, do I want to go back to a gym? I kind of do. How do. I don't know how to fit it into my life, what with tennis and all, but I. I also feel like I'm like, as I'm playing a lot of tennis, but my. Maybe my muscles are kind of atrophying, so.

[Elise Hu]

Well, you're not using all of the muscles or you're not using the muscles that are non tennis muscles.

[Dori Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

Because you use your tennis muscles a lot.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

What about all the ones that are less employed?

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes, exactly. So I don't know. Gotta figure that out a little bit, I think. Well, last week I said I was gonna keep it regular.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I think I fiber.

[Dori Shafrier]

I think I did a pretty good job with that. Good job. TBD this week is kind of all about, like, re entry back into the world after this trip, so gonna try to sort of, like, recenter myself. I also have to, like, sketch out a schedule for a big project I'm taking on. And so kind of, I feel like I was sort of like, waiting to get past this trip to kind of, like, start a bunch of of stuff. So you know what I mean?

[Elise Hu]

So this is kind of a reset post. Reset week.

[Dori Shafrier]

Yes.

[Alex L.]

Okay.

[Dori Shafrier]

Exactly. So that is the idea. All right, everyone, thanks so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafrier and Elise Hu. And produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our Project manager and our network partners, Acast. Thanks so much for listening.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dori Shafrier]

Take care. Bye.

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