Mary H.K. Choi On Her New Book and her AuDHD Diagnosis

Summary

Forever35 Podcast Summary

Episode: Mary H.K. Choi On Her New Book and her AuDHD Diagnosis

Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu

Guest: Mary H.K. Choi

Date: June 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings back celebrated author Mary H.K. Choi to discuss her first adult novel, "Pool House," and her experience being diagnosed with both ADHD and autism (AuDHD) later in life. The conversation blends discussion of Mary's writing process, reflections on neurodivergence, and honest talk about creative life, mothers and daughters, self-care, and surviving as an artist in the current media climate—with characteristic humor and depth. The hosts also catch up about their own self-care routines and family life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Catch-Up & Self-Care

• Elise and Doree discuss their recent self-care:
  • Doree finds tennis to be her essential "me-time" activity, helping her disconnect and focus. [04:12]
  • Elise recounts a successful acupuncture session that helped her recent knee pain, finding herself "singing her [Kateri the acupuncturist's] praises" after feeling better almost immediately. [05:23–06:48]
  • Both express delight at discovering tools or products (Theragun, new tennis racket) that actually help their physical well-being. [07:15–09:51]

Self-Care Practices (w/ Mary H.K. Choi)

• Mary shares her current self-care practice: hormone replacement therapy (HRT), specifically the estrogen patch and increased progesterone, which has profoundly improved her sleep and mental well-being after struggling with insomnia, heightened anxiety, and more pronounced ADHD symptoms.
  • “I’m sleeping for the first time… I'm dreaming dreams again and I'm like an avid dreamer and I hadn't been for a long, long time.” — Mary HK Choi [12:14]
• The trio talk candidly about misconceptions and real-life experiences with HRT, sharing personal anecdotes and highlighting how helpful it can be.

AuDHD Diagnosis & Neurodivergence

• Mary opens up about receiving ADHD and autism diagnoses in midlife. She explores feelings of validation, grief, acceptance, and anger relating to the late discovery.
  • “It’s so helpful to have a name, to have a handle... For me, it actually quelled a lot of energy that I was expending when it came to hypervigilance, urgency, and a kind of... punitive way that I was talking to myself.” — Mary HK Choi [17:17]
• Discussion covers:
  • The emotional aftermath: moving through sadness, grief, and then acceptance and compassion for her younger self.
  • The impact of societal and cultural biases—why Mary feels her diagnoses were missed: “...these things are coded as, like, white male or disruptive... but I don't think it is that beyond the reach of collective mutual capability that someone who looks like me... could be detected earlier.” [19:09]
  • Speculation on how diagnosis could have altered her life's choices, including possible career moves or family planning, and recognizing shared neurodivergence in her mother, allowing for more compassion. [20:21–21:54]

"Pool House"—On Mothers, Daughters, and Celebrity (Book Discussion)

• Mary sets up the plot: Pool House centers on a mother/daughter duo in LA, both grappling with aging, beauty, fame, economic insecurity, and complicated family legacies against the backdrop of celebrity culture.
  • “There’s something just so intoxicating... in this idea of a mother—these horrible situations that make any relationship between two women zero sum, even if they're literally related.” — Mary HK Choi [22:24]
• The book's LA setting: Mary discusses LA’s "sealed-up clamshell" vibe, the challenges of building community, and the “relentlessly same” sunshine that can feel “like being dopamine... to death.” [28:08]
• Literary inspirations: "Mildred Pierce," "Imitation of Life," and complex mother-daughter dynamics.
• The book’s anti-hero and showbiz parallels (compared to BoJack Horseman): Mary describes the “fake son” and the dark comedy-tragedy of living in the shadow of TV fame, personal loss, and fractured family.

Writing for Adults vs. YA (Young Adult)

• Mary reveals she doesn't consciously decide on genre; she simply follows the story that comes to her. The shift to an adult novel was organic, dictated by the characters' ages and themes rather than market strategy.
  • “I've only ever really written the next book that came to me... the story of this mother and daughter came to me and that's just the one I wanted to write.” [31:06]

Navigating Creative Career in 2026 ("Media Apocalypse")

• All acknowledge the increasingly tough environment for writers and creative professionals, with the pressure of "branding," "pivoting to video," social media algorithms, AI, and the “media apocalypse.”
  • “Everything needs a call to action. Everything needs a hook... And then you have layers...insisting that AI is going to save you.” — Mary HK Choi [32:21]
  • Mary observes the reality that many authors support themselves via teaching, partners with stable jobs, or family wealth—pulling back the curtain on how art gets made and marketed. [34:31]
  • Despite uncertainty, she remains focused on authentic artistry, connection, and joy in the creative act itself.

Reflections on Place: New York & L.A. Today

• Mary shares nuanced feelings about living in New York:
  • Loves the energy and constant influx of inspiration, but notes how draining it can be—“like hugging a radioactive isotope.”
  • Describes dramatic post-Covid changes: a perception of more "non-playable characters," old institutions fading, and a sense of impermanence. [36:14–38:47]
• She contrasts this with the “flattened” feeling she had in LA, reinforcing how both cities have transformed.

What's Next for Mary HK Choi?

• For the first time, Mary is sitting with the completion of her book instead of rushing into a new project, appreciating the rare feeling of closure and satisfaction.
• Hints at work on another show, two potential new book projects (possibly including memoir and romance), and a focus on pursuing “artistry” and genuinely enjoying the act of creation. [38:55–41:15]
  • “How do I make sure that I am altered... nourished by the action of doing something?” — Mary HK Choi

Notable Lighter Moments

• Family time and intention-setting: Elise shares about her mother's home-cooked Taiwanese meals and the joy of eating together, while planning to journal more family memories. [42:04–44:10]
• Doree discusses the bittersweet feelings of her child finishing school and the plan to seek fun summer day trips. [44:18–45:06]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m sleeping for the first time… I'm dreaming dreams again and I'm like an avid dreamer and I hadn't been for a long, long time.” – Mary HK Choi [12:14]
• “It’s so helpful to have a name… For me, it actually quelled a lot of energy that I was expending when it came to hypervigilance, urgency, and a kind of... punitive way that I was talking to myself.” – Mary HK Choi [17:17]
• “The only thing I’m actually responsible for in this moment is making something that I am amused by, that is exciting to me, that is joyful...” – Mary HK Choi [38:55]
• “New York is the best, but it's also like hugging a radioactive isotope.” – Mary HK Choi [36:31]
• “Everything needs a call to action. Everything needs a hook... And then you have layers...insisting that AI is going to save you.” – Mary HK Choi [32:21]
• [On LA] “There is something about that sort of almost abusive level of sunshine that made every single day feel like the continuation of the same day.” – Mary HK Choi [28:08]
• [On family legacy] “She functioned like she was being chased by dogs and we were constantly in danger. And that's like a really tough way to raise a sort of special needs child, especially both of us as immigrants.” – Mary HK Choi [20:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:58] Doree and Elise catch up on recent self-care routines and physical health fixes.
• [11:50] Mary HK Choi joins the conversation.
• [12:14] Mary describes how HRT transformed her sleep and overall well-being.
• [17:17] Discussion of late-in-life autism and ADHD diagnosis—emotional and practical impact.
• [22:24] Mary discusses the genesis and themes of "Pool House."
• [28:08] Why LA is the perfect setting for her new book.
• [31:06] Mary on shifting from YA to literary/adult fiction.
• [32:21] Navigating the current creative/media world and the realities behind the author's life.
• [36:31] Reflections on New York City post-pandemic.
• [38:55] What Mary is excited about now and how she frames creative work.
• [42:04] Hosts’ lighter personal updates: family meals, journaling, summer intentions.

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Conclusion

This episode of Forever35 is rich with wisdom, humor, and authentic takes on self-discovery, creative resilience, and cultural identity. Mary HK Choi’s candor about neurodivergence and her thoughtful articulation of what it means to create—and simply be—in midlife offers both inspiration and solidarity, whether listeners are fans of her novels, live with similar diagnoses, or are simply navigating their own complicated family legacies and creative ambitions.

Transcript

[Mary HK Choi]

Foreign.

[Dory Shafrier]

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrier.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrier]

And today we have a Repeat Forever 35 guest, one of my favorite people and authors, Mary HK Choi, back to talk about her new book, Pool House, which is a great read. And I just. I just love getting to talk to Mary. I hope you. I hope you had fun, too.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, my gosh, yes. It's her first adult or it's her first novel. She's written a lot of ya and I've read all of her YA books already. And she gets into why she chose to take this on instead of the YA genre and how she doesn't really think about genre that much anyway. She's just a really strong storyteller. Also, Mary HK Choi has such a special place in my heart for a couple reasons, not just because she's a brilliant writer and thinker, and I just like. I feel like her voice is so singular, but she has a special place in my heart because one, she was the neighbor of my college dorm mate, which is pretty wild.

[Dory Shafrier]

So funny.

[Elise Hu]

Tim. So she and Tim, I don't know, were neighbors in New York or something. And then that's how I was first introduced to her very first YA book. He recommended it to me. I think it was Emergency Contact was her first one. And the other is because I read and loved Emergency Contact. I think I was doing a podcast app search for her name because I wanted to hear her talk about her book. Because a lot of times I'll watch a TV show or a movie and I'll really enjoy it and then want to go back and listen to the artists who are in that TV show or movie or book talk about their. Their work. And so I had searched Mary H.K. choi's name, and that's how I first heard Forever 35. So the.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my gosh.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, the first Forever 35 episode I ever heard was probably in, like 2018 or 2019 in the early. I mean, it wasn't like the first 100 episodes for sure.

[Dory Shafrier]

Maybe in the.

[Elise Hu]

Even in the first 50 episodes I heard you and Kate, because y' all had on Mary HK Choi. And I think at that time she was just coming out of disordered eating and was, like, very candid about all of that with you. And I just thought it was so real. And I loved her. But also I loved you guys and your rapport and like, it's so funny. It's like just a really full circle episode that we're doing today because it's many years later and here we are, you know, and like, as fate would have it, like, we all got to chat and I think that's really lovely.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh yeah, I love that, I love that full circle moment.

[Elise Hu]

The book is very intense. The book is like mother daughter stuff. It is adult, like grown men who are still children, like very immature grown men. It has celebrity culture. It has like aging and what that means when your daughter is representing youth and beauty and all those things. So I, I, I really liked it a lot. But also like, we love Mary and Mary has been through it. You know, she got a late in life autism diagnosis or was it adhd?

[Dory Shafrier]

Both.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes. She's twice exceptional. So yeah, so she'll talk about that and, and her self care and just love it. But that's coming up later. Let's catch up. How are you doing, Dor? What are you doing lately to take care of yourself?

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm like, what is, what is self care? What is that?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, this time of year is rough.

[Dory Shafrier]

It is, yeah. It's just like a lot. I mean, I'm playing tennis. I'm. That's kind of the only thing that like really keeps me going. Yeah, it's me time.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. It's like not on my phone, not thinking about anything else, just focusing on this dumb little yellow ball.

[Elise Hu]

That's what's so good about tennis, I think too, because it requires such focus and presence.

[Dory Shafrier]

Totally.

[Elise Hu]

I need to play. I need to get out there and play again. I, because of this time period, I also haven't, I just haven't gotten to get the units of exercise that I want. That and also I tweaked my knee a couple of weeks ago, but not the knee that I have persistent problems with. It's bad. It's bad when you wake up and it's the other side, you know, it's like, oh, wait, the other one's now talking to me. That's not good. So that's what happened to me a couple weeks ago. But through all of the volunteering I've been doing at the end of the school year, I met another mom at the middle school who happens to be a, an acupuncturist and like studied a lot of eastern medicine and came very highly recommended to me by other people. Like, I hap. I happened to meet her, but I had already heard of her. Her name's Kateri and this week, because my knee was still tender and not quite right, I texted her, and I was like, can I come in? She got me in on Monday, and it was the best acupuncture session I have ever had. I have been feeling great. I. I felt weird the day of, and she said I would. She was like, look, I had to mess with different channels and things like that, so you're going to feel random pricks and pain throughout the day following this session, you know, because I had to. I'm working on your inflammation in different places. And she was right. I did feel a little weird on Monday afterwards. And achy, just achy in places that I didn't expect to be achy. But then I woke up yesterday feeling great. I woke up energized. But also the pain, crucially, the pain was gone from tweaking my knee. And she was very straight. She was like, look, if you have something that requires an ultrasound or, you know, an MRI or something that I cannot help you with, you should go and get an ultrasound or an mri. But if you feel like you tweaked your knee, you know, and this is. This could be inflammation that acupuncture can help with, then I will take a look. And so she did, and she helped me tremendously. And I. Now I'm just, like, singing her praises. And on stuff, I'm like, does anybody need an acupuncturist on the west side?

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

I just feel my whole chi is better. I feel more energetic, like, but maybe that's because the pain is not nagging at me, you know?

[Mary HK Choi]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

Because I had this persistent, annoying pain. I know the limitations of acupuncture and cupping and all these things, but this practitioner happened to make a difference for me, and so I'm really happy with it.

[Dory Shafrier]

I love that. What a. What a nice thing to find something that you feel, like, actually helped, like, helped you.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, imagine that.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Crazy. I've done a lot of PT in my life, and that can be hit or miss.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

I love a theragun, though.

[Dory Shafrier]

You know what? I love a thera.

[Mary HK Choi]

I love.

[Dory Shafrier]

They sponsored this podcast briefly.

[Elise Hu]

Oh.

[Dory Shafrier]

Like, I don't know, a few years ago. And so they sent us a theragun.

[Mary HK Choi]

Nice.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I was like, oh, this is nice. Like, I use it, like, when my arm has been hurting. Oh. But something that I will say about tennis and arms hurting.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Is I had been using the same racket for, like, four or five years, and I had gotten tennis elbow a couple years ago, and then you know, I had to go to what I found out was ot, not pt, because when it's your hand or your arm, it's ot. Okay, fun fact.

[Elise Hu]

Yep.

[Dory Shafrier]

And I changed my strings and, like, changed my whole setup, but I didn't. I never changed my racket. And I always had, like, some lingering arm pain. Like, it never, like, fully went away, but it was. It was not nowhere near what it had been before. So I was like, okay, this just. It is what it is.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And then I was feeling a little more arm pain, and I was like, you know, everyone says that the racket I play with, which was the Babel app, pure drive for people interested, is like, it's a power racket. And because it's a power racket, it's very stiff, so it's not good for tennis elbow. And I knew that, but I was always like, well, I'll change my strings. And that did help for a little while, but I was like, I think I owe it to myself and my arm to finally get a softer racket. Yeah. And so I finally did.

[Elise Hu]

What did you switch to?

[Dory Shafrier]

I switched to a new model head racket called the Head Squared.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. And plays with a head racket.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, he. I don't think he plays with the Head Squared. The Head Squared is for, like. I mean, it's supposed to be for, I think, for, like, beginner intermediate players, but the. And it's brand new. Like, they just came out with it. And when I went to the tennis store in la, they explained it to me as, like, the head of the racket is very light, which is some, like, new technology. And I was sort of like, hmm, okay. And then I just bought it. They didn't have a demo available, but I was like, I. I, like. I sort of, like, desperately need this new racket, and it has been, like, a godsend.

[Mary HK Choi]

Oh.

[Dory Shafrier]

I was like, oh, my God. I waited this long to, like, switch out something that would really, like. Cause, you know, I was like, how stiff could my racket be? But it turns out quite stiff. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So, I mean, this is awesome. We both have something that, like, helped fix some sort of bodily issue.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, totally.

[Elise Hu]

Solution. Solutions. Here's the solutions.

[Dory Shafrier]

So. Yeah. So let's introduce Mary.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Mary is the New York Times bestselling author of Emergency Contact, Permanent Record, and Yoke. Her fourth novel, Pool House, is out now. Permanent Record is currently being adapted for a feature film and yoke for a TV series, and she is the executive producer and writer for both. She can be found on Threads or Instagram for more musings or you can follow her newsletter and we will link to all of those in the show notes. And just a reminder you can call or text us at 781-591-0390. You can email us at [e-mail]. our website is forever35podcast.com we have links there to everything we mention on the show. Our Instagram is @forever35podcast and our Patreon is at patreon.com forever35. At the free level you get access to our semi monthly newsletter where we discuss pod highlights, product reviews, exclusive discounts, giveaways and more. At $5 a month you get access to our casual chat which is now on video. You get a quarterly live casual chat, access to our community chat on the Patreon app and more. And at $10 a month you also get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. You can also shop our favorite products at shopmy us./forever35 and we are going to take a short break and then we will be chatting with Mary.

[Elise Hu]

We'll be right back.

[Dory Shafrier]

We'll be right back. Foreign. Welcome back to Forever35. It's so good to see you.

[Mary HK Choi]

It's so good to be here.

[Dory Shafrier]

I cannot wait to talk to you about your new book and all the things a lot of things have happened in your life since we last chatted on air. So I'm excited and I know you've answered this question before but we always ask our guests about a self care practice. So what are you doing these days that you would consider self care?

[Mary HK Choi]

So yeah, I would love to tell you that I have an elaborate, very expensive, very very relevant pop, culturally relevant peptide stack. But it's more just that I am on hormone replacement. I I'm on the estrogen patch and I just upped my progesterone and so I'm sleeping for the first time and I'm not even kidding, like sleeping deeply for about like six months. I'd say like I'm dreaming dreams again and I'm like an avid dreamer and I hadn't been for a long, long time.

[Elise Hu]

I was going to ask you what led you to go and get on HRT in the first place.

[Mary HK Choi]

Honestly. And it's so nonlinear and it's so annoying how like every sort of female evolution is this like oblique set of clues. It was just that like my anxiety was way, way way up, like much more than usual and my ADHD was becoming so much more Powerful. Like, I'm used to having 20 tabs open in my brain, and suddenly it was like, 80. And I was like, this. This is weird. And this is always, like, a little bit. I hated myself more. And I could see that in the way that I was becoming this, like, incredibly strident, stroppy, like, judgmental person about, like, everything. And I was like, oh, this is like, it's. I'm not gonna go out and say this is not me at all. Like, this is, like, a solid, like, me all the time, but at, like, a volume three. And then suddenly I was just at a 12, and I was like, oh, this is, like, burning through a level of, like, cortisol that does feel new. And it was. It was incremental. And so that was really hard to see sort of coming in. And so. And it's that annoying thing with any sort of medication where you don't really see the effects until you've titrated for a while. And then certain things get quieter.

[Elise Hu]

Mm, good.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah, but.

[Elise Hu]

And you have found it to be effective for you.

[Mary HK Choi]

Effective to the point where I can't believe I'm saying the same thing that so many other women have said, which is that I wish I'd gone on it sooner. Cause I'm in my mid-40s. But, like, now I'm beginning to see. I'm like, dang it. Like, me at 38, 39 is, I think, when this would have been really, really helpful, actually.

[Dory Shafrier]

I'm also on HRT and love it. When I first started taking it, I didn't read the directions for the progesterone, and I was just taking it with my pills in the morning, and I was like, I am feeling so tired lately. Like, so weird. Like, I thought I was supposed to be feeling more, like, energetic now, and I'm just feeling, like, sluggish. And then, like, literally, like two months later, I finally read on the thing, and it's like, take at night or whatever. And I'm like, oh, right.

[Mary HK Choi]

Whoops. Yeah. I mean, like, total. Totally. And I, like, kind of. I go to Dr. Reddit for everything. So unless, like, the Greek chorus has all been, like, anecdotally take it at night. Like, I'm like, I don't believe anything. And so I did start taking it at night, and I'm a big sleeper. How. How much do you guys sleep? Like, no judgment. This is, like, a safe sleep a lot.

[Elise Hu]

I sleep, like, seven and a half hours straight. And then on the weekends, longer.

[Mary HK Choi]

I love a long. I'm also like, it's not like quite like Dakota Johnson levels where she was like, talking about, like, I don't know, like 10, 12 hours, but I like a good solid eight and a half, nine hours.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's like, that's, that's a weekend sleep for me. I can't do that because of my kids.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah. Oh, I love that we're team sleep because some people just really do function on four and a half. And that's just not my story.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, I've never, I've never been able to do that. I was just having this conversation with a couple of friends who are younger than I am. Like, they're. They all kind of just turned 40 and one of them is on HRT and she's like, it's great. And the others were like, wait, are like, is it time? And I was like, yes, it's time. I was like, the only reason I wasn't on it at 40 is because it wasn't like, part of the conversation.

[Mary HK Choi]

Totally. And it always sort of opens up that conversation Pandora's box thing of like, well, is it that more people need it or is it like, psychosomatic? And just because we're talking it, you know, the way people talk about, like, increased ADHD cases or late stage autism diagnoses, which is obviously.

[Elise Hu]

There's a lot of those in the discussion.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah. And I'm on all these teams on. I'm on every team, apparently. I'm like a ringer for issues.

[Dory Shafrier]

We were going to ask you about this, like, after we got to your book, but since we're talking about it now, we might as well just talk about it. You know, you've written, like, really beautifully about your later in life ADHD and autism diagnoses. And, like, how is that going? Like, how has your life changed since getting your diagnoses? Like, what does it mean to you to have this community and kind of like, put a name to this?

[Mary HK Choi]

I mean, you know, and Dory, I'm so grateful for, like, our friendship offline as well, because we talked quite consistently throughout both these things. And like, yes, we did. It's. It's amazing. I mean, it's, it's. It's basically like the conversation that you and I had, like times a million, where it's so helpful to have a name, to have a handle, to sort of be able to encapsulate a host or series of different things that seem unmanageable because they seem sort of spiritually unrelated. But then once you start tracking, you're like, oh, and so for me, it actually quelled a lot of, like, energy that I was expending when it came to hypervigilance, when it came to urgency, when it came to a kind of, like, draconian and stern and incredibly cunty and punitive way that I was talking to myself about things. Because if things were like, you're the only one, AKA you are an aberration, like, why can't you not function according to some sort of, like, you know, benchmark of norm or whatever, then. Then all of these things sort of come into play. But if I'm just like, okay, well, this is how you are, and this is how not only you will always be, but, like, thanks to cognitive decline and perimenopause and just aging, you know, these symptoms are going to get more extreme and, like, they're not even going to have the decency to be sort of uni. Unidirectionally extreme. It's like they're just going to change and feel weird and wobbly. But for a long time, and I think this, the late stage aspect of it brings us to the fore. For a long time, I was just sad, you know, and I. I sort of moved through a lot of grief and a lot of just like, contrition almost, and just a lot of compassion for, like, earlier versions of myself that I was just so mean and impatient to.

[Dory Shafrier]

And then.

[Mary HK Choi]

And then anger came up, which was wonderful too, because, like, there's a place and a time for all of that just so that you don't have to carry it around. And that was. And the way that looked was just like, you know, I know that usually these things sort of are coded as, like, white male or, like, disruptive or, you know, all of these things, but I don't think it is that beyond the reach of collective mutual capability that someone who looks like me, speaks like me, is like me could be detected earlier. And, like, that would have been incredibly helpful for me. And so to be able to see this as, like, a failing of adults around me was important part of letting go of being mad about all of it and then moving through the grief and the sadness and just, you know, I don't think I've been explicit about it, but, like, had I known I had ADHD and autism and. And wasn't. And it wasn't a series of questions of things I needed to fix, I think I would have made a lot of career choices and risks earlier, and I might have. I might have had a family. Like, I might have wanted to have children.

[Elise Hu]

My closest friend Dr. Jen was 46 or 47 when she got her a D H diagnosis. That's like the twice exceptional.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

And she said that it was so freeing and so liberating, but also she had so much grief because it clearly was such a cause of tension with her Taiwanese mother, you know, her life totally. And like, to this day, she's estranged from her mother.

[Mary HK Choi]

You know, that's really painful. That's really painful. And I think for me, because I'm obsessed with my mother, I keep writing about just mothers. And I think for me, part of it was also just being able to identify that my mother is so neurodivergent and so things that were, like, harsh or, like, terse or, like, violent, you know, not. No to all of these things. But also I'm like, oh, like, she had different bandwidth as well, and she was functioning differently as well. And she was probably as urgent and violent and strict to me as she was to herself. And so, wow. You know, she. She functioned like she was being chased by dogs and we were constantly in danger. And that's like a really tough way to raise a sort of special needs child, especially both of us as immigrants. And so, like, now I have a lot of compassion for her, but I do have a lot of feeling for your friend who is estranged while having this realization, while also, you know, it's all. Yes. And while also acknowledging that, like, sometimes no contact is the harder choice and it sometimes is the more fruitful choice depending on the person.

[Elise Hu]

Well, you brought up mothers and daughters, which is a great opportunity for us to turn to Pool house, because the central relationship is really between a mother and kind of aging starlet. I guess. She's not old, really. She's like in her late 40s. Right. Or early 20s.

[Mary HK Choi]

Totally, totally. She's in her late 40s. She's like, basically my age. We're in basically the same age. Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

But she had a daughter younger in life, and so her daughter is kind of college aged, early 20s. Talk a little. Set up the book for us.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah, like, I always. I knew that I wanted to write about mothers and daughters, and I knew specifically that there's something just so intoxicating and ripe in this idea of a mother. You know, it's all of these, like, horrible situations that really make, like, any relationship between two women zero sum, even if they're literally related, where it's just like, oh, your daughter took your looks like all of that stuff. And, you know, it's. It's kind of canonical. And I love things like I Love Mildred Pierce. I love how complicated that relationship is. I love, you know, like, Imitation of Life. Like, I love all of these stories that are just so, so loaded, and they are heady, if not more heady than any sort of romantic love could ever hope to be. Like, you know, I think just this morning, my partner had come back from two weeks in Switzerland. He's Swiss. And he was just like, man, first of all, I stayed with my mother for two weeks. That was a data packet and a half. And I was like, yeah. And he was like. And you know what the takeaway was? I was like, what? He was like, fuck if I didn't just marry my mother. And I was like, bro, yes. And I married my mother, too. So, like, you know, enjoy that can of worms, you know, like. And so, like, I do love the tension of that, and I love being. I love enmeshment. I do think that something happens, especially as an immigrant, especially as a minority, where you're just on the spaceship together. Sometimes it does feel like the place you left is a place that no longer exists by dint of time passing in that location and you not being there for it. So basically, in sort of like, the simultaneity of multiverses, it's like you are the two survivors of this alien planet that doesn't exist anymore. And so, like, what does that look like? And how is it when the dynamic is established that the mother is the shining sun, and then her light begins to dim, and then God, like, lo and behold, what if the daughter starts to shine? And what happens then? And so, you know, and it's not like the world would then be like, what are you talking about? We all each have special merits at each age and, like, stage of our lives. You know, the entire world is like, whoa, you actually finally look like your mother now, and your mother looks like someone else. Like, it's just like such. And then, you know, the Panopticon and the sort of concentration of that within celebrity, fame, optics, performance, and all of that stuff as well.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Cause listeners, this book has kind of a BoJack Horseman vibe, too. And I say that with the highest compliments because it is, like, Mad Men level antihero drama to me, that show.

[Mary HK Choi]

I mean, I love BoJack. That's like, yeah, same, same.

[Elise Hu]

And I mean that because there's. There is, like, this specter of formerly being on a hit show and then having a fake family, which is what BoJack kind of had to wrestle with. And so I'd love for you to talk a Little bit about the sun. Like the fake son in the story, too.

[Mary HK Choi]

I love a fake son. Just like a large adult son. So, like, basically the entire story is that it's a mother and daughter who live in a pool house because they can no longer afford to live in the big house across the lawn. Cause that's being rented out to people with actual jobs, AKA probably people in venture capitalism, private equity, or AI. And so they're renting it out, you know, and they're living in this, like, glass house. It's kind of like a terrarium in many ways. It is just, you know, like a spec. A spectacle or like an endurance exercise. It's just a box and it has no privacy. Obviously. Glass houses. And they are, you know, they have a really tough relationship. They're kind of not speaking to each other. And then what happens is the man and the father and the husband on this TV show, he ends his life. And that's not like a spoiler. It comes pretty early on. And when that happens, the son on the TV show, who the daughter who is not on the TV show has been in love with her whole life, comes to stay with them. And so then they decamp for the big house, pretending as if they've lived in the big house all along. And that's where the story sort of heads, like, starts off from. And so it's. It's. It's not even just drama triangles. It's just, like, infinite, like, triangulation. It's like, it's. Yeah. Like, it's. It's incredibly complicated. And. And also. But there's also like, a lot of love there. And for the daughter herself, it's kind of like. Remember, like the. The Osbournes.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Mary HK Choi]

Remember, there was a daughter who was never, ever, ever, like, the not Kelly one. Yes, the not Kelly.

[Dory Shafrier]

Right.

[Mary HK Choi]

And so she's kind of the not Kelly, but, like, unwillingly, like, she would have loved to be on that TV show. She was just excluded from it. And it was even more confusing because she wanted to be in the son's life. Like, she had a big crush on him. And the father on that show also dated her mother and taught her how to, like, do things and acted like the only paternal figure she's ever had in her life. And so it's really painful that the family that all the people that she feels closest to is remembered with so much love and it just excludes her.

[Dory Shafrier]

Mary, why was it. Why was it important to you to set this book in la?

[Mary HK Choi]

Well, I mean, Dory, as. As an Ex New Yorker, you know. You know, like, I, I lived there for two years and I'd moved there for work. And I really enjoy la, but until LA opens itself to you, which people tell me it's minimally takes two years. And usually it's, it's, you know, more than that. LA is just this like, sealed up little clamshell. Like, it'll, it will like sort of expose its, like, wrist or its ankle to you, where you're like, okay, fine, I guess this is like Runyon Canyon. I'll go on a hike or whatever. Or like you're like, okay, this, this restaurant is called All Time. You will eat here a few times. You know, like, it's like. Or I guess when I lived there it was just like sugarfish or. And that's like kind of all I knew or the Grove or whatever. But like, to actually understand what it feels like to live there, you need people. And in order to do that, you need to minimally pick a side of town, or if you're going to stay in the middle, stay in the middle and befriend all the people there. But it takes a lot of work to create a community. And so when I lived there, it felt like I was kind of like completely distanced by everyone. And because the weather is so nice and unceasingly, just like relentlessly same, it felt like I was being like, like dopamine or serotonin to death, where I was like, I have. I'm supposed to have no complaints. I don't even know that I'm depressed, but I'm pretty sure that I am, although I have no indication that I am. And there is something about that sort of almost abusive level of sunshine that made every single day feel like the continuation of the same day. And I loved. You know, it's like certain times in a person's life, like hospital time works like that. There's no light, there's no dark. It's like casino time. And, you know, and so setting a very sort of tight little drama between three people in this kind of like beautiful time that has no contours was really attractive to me.

[Dory Shafrier]

So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back.

[Elise Hu]

Tell us about why you decided to take on an adult novel instead of ya. I mean, we love all your YA books too. Was this just kind of like, this is the next challenge or I want to do something a little bit more complex and darker or sexier.

[Mary HK Choi]

I mean, honestly, like between YA and adult or like literary fiction? I Guess it's like, I don't know, I never really set out to write YA either. And so like, when I. When I came out with a story about kids that were in college, people were like, oh, this isn't quite ya. It's like, na. That's like new adult. And I'm like, I don't really understand the delineation.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Mary HK Choi]

And they were like, well, is there sex? And I was like, yes, there's sex in all my books. And they were like, oh, so then you're not really ya? And I'm like, I am now unconcerned by all of this. And so I've only ever really written the next book that came to me. Like, the next book after this might be nonfiction. I think it might be an autism book. Or it might be a fiction that's actually a romance. And I'm like, I don't know how that's going to be categorized later, or that's going to be a question I'm going to get. But I. The story of this mother and daughter came to me and that's just the one I wanted to write. And you know, the mother, I don't know if you know this, but the mother was older than the daughter. And so then it became sort of qualified as that, like this would be an adult novel. And then, and then it became the issue of like, okay, well, you know, where. Who would publish it, what's the vibe and things like that. And so I've only ever concerned myself really with whatever sort of inkling or signal I was getting. And then I would just kind of go from there.

[Elise Hu]

Cool. How are you finding just like being a creative person right now and like making it in the world and. Cause we're in this time of media apocalypse. Dory and I were just talking. It's like, how is everyone surviving?

[Mary HK Choi]

I mean, it's grim. And every day it's so interesting because there are new ways where I have to become more efficient and I have to be really, really intentional and granular about like branding and like launching and soft launching and hard launching and pivoting to video. And like, this Response is already 70% too long. It should be five seconds and you know, have a trending audio sound. Everything needs a call to action. Everything needs a hook. Like, I just feel really, really hyper aware of all these things. And then you have like layers and layers and yet layers insisting that AI is going to save you. Totally. And you know, I understand the seduction of it. And I understand even too that like all the spam I'm getting because my algorithm is so hyper aware that I'm trying to flog a book right now. The spam I'm getting is so exacting. It's like, you know, like I'm seeing on Goodreads that your book is positioned at blah, blah, blah, which is not as high as it should be. Like, you seem to be underserving this. You, it's, it's fully spam, and you can tell by the syntax, and that's. That stuff kind of gets scary. And so on one hand, there's so much to be afraid of, and on the other hand, everything about this entire enterprise is predicated on an innate trust in, like, humanity. You know, like, this is like already everything we do in this space is like such a wild subversion. You know, A friend of mine was just commenting that they'd heard someone say that a novel is long form content, which I find so, so funny in the same way that someone called reading raw dogging a book.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, my God.

[Mary HK Choi]

And so like, you know, and like, I can freak out about all of this and be like, caught up in the semantics, but the truth is it's like, you know, books getting across, whether it be audio, whether it be created by, like, written by a content creator creator rather than an author, whether it's self published. Like, I'm, I'm not worried about any of that. All I know is that people will create, crave other people.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Mary HK Choi]

And so whatever that looks like, wherever I'm positioned on whatever trend or trough or wave of that, I can't be too concerned about it. But what I do know is that I love talking to other creators. Like, even if it's a commiseration, even if it's complaints, even if it's just like, how, how, how does one live? Like, I just taught a seminar class and that came with a, an honorarium. I was like, oh, look, money. Like, I squeezed this and then money came out. And, and similarly, like, I still write personal essays or do interviews for other people for money. I also, I've been developing my own books for a really, really long time. And sometimes if you squeeze the right corner of that, some money tumbles out, sometimes some health insurance, and like, that's how I make it work. But, like, a lot of the time I had these realizations where I'm like, oh, that's why all these authors are also teachers. I'm like, that's how they get the. I was like, that's how they get the health insurance and the stability and Then a lot of the times, too. A lot of artists, I'm like, like, oh, your partner is in finance. Or I'm like, oh, like, you are generationally wealthy but very, very effective at hiding it. Except for you showed your ass when you hired an $80,000 publicist out of pocket. Like, so, like, all of these things can be true, but I don't know, I, I, I can't doomsday prophesize about it.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mary HK Choi]

And I'll move out of New York when I can no longer afford to live here. And I also very consciously decided not to have children because I didn't, I didn't know how this would work. Like, I'm married to a literal composer of music.

[Dory Shafrier]

You mentioned that you will stay in New York as long as you can afford to stay in New York. And I'm wondering, as you know, as you pointed out, someone who is an ex New Yorker, but I haven't been there now in a couple of years. What's the vibe these days?

[Mary HK Choi]

Well, I mean, it's a lot of things. It's like the same thing. It always is. It's one, it's so exciting. I love more than anything that I can go to, like, any number of museums, I can go to any number of cultural events, lectures. Everybody comes through here at some point. So you do get to see all of your friends, like, at least once or twice a year. And that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. It also feels like you are living inside a live action for your page. Like, it is so loud with everybody's main character energy, and it is very, very distracting. And so any sort of, like, you know, like, I feel like New York is perfect for, like, feeling resentful that you caught astray. Like, you're just like, ugh, like, what was that? Why do I have to know this? And then part of the issue is that, like, you decided to be jealous about this other thing that has nothing to do with you, you know? And so, like, I feel like New York is the best, but it's also like hugging a radioactive isotope. It's like both things where you can be denatured. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to make work here. I think I have to leave here for, like, a certain amount of time, make work there, and then return here to promote it or, like, synthesize it. Yeah, but, but I also, you know, like, I used to live in Park Slope and now I live on the Lower east side. It's like I moved to there, like, Times Square is very close to my apartment. And that's, I, I made that, you know, like, I did that.

[Dory Shafrier]

So.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah. But, you know, post Covid, it's also weird. Like, there's a lot of people around who are criminally swagless. Like, every third person is like a non playable character in a very, very profound way. Like, they look plenty rich. Like, they have the right little lightweight jacket, they have the right colored, right length trench coat. But I know that they're not gonna live here forever. They know that they're not gonna live here forever. And it's a lot of old institutions being sort of destroyed for really weird, faceless, like, again, like private equity situations that just feel sort of flattened and, and also, it's super different after Covid in all the ways that LA is super different after Covid.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

All right, since we don't want to leave on an everything is private equity note, what's next for you? What are you excited about?

[Mary HK Choi]

You know, I'm excited about a lot of things. Like, I, I, this is the first time ever that I'm promoting a book without being inside another book. Like, I thought about, you know, going out with this proposal. I thought about starting to really dedicate my time into writing this, this new fiction project. But I'm just, I'm sitting in the place of like, I've finished something good and I never get to do this. And so I'm just like, allowing for the completion of something, but then also secretly because I'm me. Like, I am eyeing these two other books and I'm working on a show that is something I can't talk about, but hopefully can soon. And it's really, really fun. I mean, that's the thing too, about everything being a bit of a trash fire. It makes the stakes kind of funny. Like, you can, I can either be like, if this doesn't happen, I'm toast, or I can be like, well, if anything happens, it's not a meritocracy. It won't have anything to do with what I have control over. And if it doesn't happen, it's because probably a literal war broke out at some point between the pitch and the execution, which is also not my fault. So the only thing I'm actually responsible for in this moment is making something that I am amused by that is exciting to me, that is joyful, that it feels like a very specific celebration of my time space continuum and my thought processes for like a finite amount of time. And so, yeah, like, I, I really want to come at any new project with this real sense of like. And I'm trying not to cringe while saying this word, but like artistry in the sense of like every end product can pretty much be in some sort of hackneyed way arrived at with like AI or some other sort of technology. And so like how do I make sure that I am altered and yeah, like that I am like nourished by the action of doing something. And so like it's as much about whether or not the thing that I work on next gets to exist and thrive. It's also about like, did I enjoy spending the time to get there? And that sounds really woo woo, but it's just genuinely where I'm at right now.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Mary HK Choi, thank you so much. It's so like nourishing to speak with you. So thanks for coming on and battling the technical issues and oh my God.

[Mary HK Choi]

And just like collapsing trachea. So dramatic.

[Elise Hu]

Join the club. Join the club.

[Dory Shafrier]

Thank you so much. Always so good to get to chat with Mary and I'm so excited for people to read her new book.

[Elise Hu]

I've been getting all sorts of pool house content in my algorithms. I'm seeing a lot of Mary HK Choi and I'm not mad about it. Not mad about it.

[Dory Shafrier]

No, me neither. Me neither. Elise, did you get to have more family time?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, so much family time. Oh, so much family time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Oh, wow.

[Elise Hu]

It's really awesome when my mom is here because we are very, we are a family very oriented around food and eating and eating together. And so not only do I get like a home cooked meal for dinner every night, we all sit around the table and eat dinner together. She also makes sure to cook like a multi course lunch every day and calls me and Rob down for lunch and we have this like elaborate lunch with soup and everything. Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

Can I come over?

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. She's constantly like, do you want to have more people over? We constantly have so many leftovers. So she's making today she's making a bunch of like Taiwan Taiwanese beef noodle soup. Yeah. And like she makes all her scallion pancakes from scratch, you know, so she's been making that for breakfast every day with egg.

[Dory Shafrier]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

You know, an egg crepe on it. It's just been so such a treat. So family time has been awesome. My intention this week is that this time is flying by and our kids lives are just flying by. Our own lives are flying by. And so I really have gotten away from reflecting on it. You know how I, when I started on the Show. I used to write those birthday notes to the kids, and I would, like, email. Got away from it. None of their birthdays, in the last birthday have I written them, you know, so. So I think my intention is just going to be, like, reflection and writing, like, reflective writing. Journaling, you know? Yeah, it's just passing by journaling. I was actually thinking I should do an exit interview for Issa. Like, now that she's graduated from elementary school, I should just sit her down in front of a camera, like a iPhone camera, and just interview her. And this morning, as we were walking to school, I told her I was like, I'd like to sit you down for an interview. And Issa, Issa, who's full of roasts, she's always dunking on me. She's like, I don't know, Mommy. I've heard your questions, and they're pretty basic. Wow. Constantly, this. This is. That is to live with. Issa, as Rob calls. It's the sass house. It's like the most Issa response. I gotta. I gotta write that down in her in a little. That's something I should write down, like, her little quotes.

[Dory Shafrier]

Seriously, that is sassy.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, the beast. We don't call her the beast for nothing. All right, what about you, Dor your intention last week, and what are you intending this week?

[Dory Shafrier]

Yeah, so my intention last week was just kind of navigating the last day of school, the beginning of summer. Um, you know, I think overall it went pretty well. I was. I talked on the casual chat a little bit about this, but, you know, Henry's going to a new school next year, so a little bittersweet, you know, the last day of school, even more so than I think usual, but we. We got through it.

[Mary HK Choi]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

And my intention this week is to kind of figure out what some, like, fun summer day trips could be.

[Mary HK Choi]

Ooh.

[Dory Shafrier]

Um, because Henry doesn't have any, like, activities on the weekends in the summer. And so I'm like, we should take advantage of that and do some stuff.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrier]

All right, well, thanks, everyone, so much for listening. Just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dory Shafrier and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reid is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks, everybody.

[Elise Hu]

Talk to you next time.

[Dory Shafrier]

Bye.