← Forever35
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- [00:00]
Verizon Advertiser
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- [00:33]
Quince Advertiser
I think one of the worst things about gift giving is when you find something truly perfect for everyone on your list. But you also love everything that you bought for everyone. Which is kind of what happened with my quints order. Everything's so soft and well made. I'm seriously tempted to keep it all for myself because quints pretty much has your whole list covered. They have Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 when you'd normally pay 200 or more. Then there's the denim that goes with everything. Silk tops and skirts for when you need to look put together, cashmere beanies and scarves and down jackets that actually keep you warm. And those Italian wool coats that they have. They're absolutely at the top of my list. They look designer, feel luxurious and are made with premium materials. I did get myself the 100% cotton oversized cable cardigan which I am obsessed with. I wear it all the time. It's a staple for sure and I am going to give one to my best friend this holiday. But like everything at Quint's, the price won't make you panic. We're talking way less than other brands charge. By working directly with trusted factories that maintain high standards for both craftsmanship and ethical practices, and by cutting out the middlemen and markups, Quince is able to pass those savings straight to you. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com forever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com forever35.
- [02:24]
Elise Hu
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am your co host Elise Hu. It is Christmas Eve. We are dropping this episode on a day that Dori is already off on her holiday travels, and I am blissfully not in an airport and with my family at home in Los Angeles. But we didn't want to let the feed just wither this week. So we have prepared a rerun of episode 351, which features the unstoppable author and voting rights activist Stacey Abrams, which, if you recall the original release of this episode, Dory was just over the moon and so excited to be talking with Stacey Abrams because she writes these thrillers that Dory is super into, and she's just such a charismatic and hilarious person. She talks with us about pairing empathy with action, what it looks like to commit to the craft of imagination, the way that her characters kind of just go where they're going to go when she's writing fiction. And that was really cool and interesting. And then how to Overcome Fear So even though this episode aired in the spring, we actually think a lot of its themes and a lot of the things that we talked about are evergreen and will help carry us into the new year. So enjoy our May 2025 conversation with Stacy Abrams and then we'll talk with you again in the new year. Okay, bye.
- [04:04]
Quince Advertiser
I think one of the worst things about gift giving is when you find something truly perfect for everyone on your list. But you also love everything that you bought for everyone, which is kind of what happened with my Quince order. Everything's so soft and well made. I'm seriously tempted to keep it all for myself because quints pretty much has your whole list covered. They have Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 when you'd normally pay 200 or more. Then there's the denim that goes with everything, silk tops and SK for when you need to look put together cashmere beanies and scarves and down jackets that actually keep you warm. Those Italian wool coats that they have, they're absolutely at the top of my list. They look designer, feel luxurious, and are made with premium materials. I did get myself the 100% cotton oversized cable cardigan, which I am obsessed with. I wear it all the time. It's a staple for sure, and I am going to give one to my best friend this holiday. But like everything at Quint, the price won't make you panic. We're talking way less than other brands charge. By working directly with trusted factories that maintain high standards for both craftsmanship and ethical practices, and by cutting out the middlemen and markups, Quince is able to pass those savings straight to you. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince Go to quince.comforever35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comforever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comforever35 I think one of the worst things about gift giving is when you find something truly perfect for everyone on your list. But you also love everything that you bought for everyone, which is kind of what happened with my quints order. Everything's so soft and well made. I'm seriously tempted to keep it all for myself because Quints pretty much has your whole list covered. They have Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 when you'd normally pay $200 or more. Then there's the denim that goes with everything. Silk tops and skirts for when you need to look put together, cashmere beanies and scarves and down jackets that actually keep you warm. And those Italian wool coats that they have, they're absolutely at the top of my list. They look designer, feel luxurious and are made with premium materials. I did get myself the 100% cotton oversized cable cardigan which I am obsessed with. I wear it all the time. It's a staple for sure and I am gonna give one to my best friend this holiday. But like everything at Quint, the price won't make you panic. We're talking way less than other brands charge. By working directly with trusted factories that maintain high standards for both craftsmanship and and ethical practices, and by cutting out the middlemen and markups, Quince is able to pass those savings straight to you. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with Quince. Go to quince.comfore35 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com Forever35 to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Forever35.
- [07:28]
Dori Shafrir
Stacey ABRAMS welcome to Forever 35. You've been on our like wish list of guests for a very long time so it's really great to get to see you. We were just talking about how Elise is going to be in Scottsdale, Arizona for the weekend and you were saying you went to Scottsdale the first time you ever went on a plane.
- [07:45]
Stacey Abrams
I did. So I was a 12 year old Girl Scout at 12 or 13 and I was selected to go with the Girl Scout troops. We were sent to this conference and there was some disagreement with some of the parents about my inclusion that may or may not have been race based. And so they all left me. They left the other families. Other Girl Scouts went and they didn't tell my parents. And so we get to the airport ready to go with everyone, and they'd taken a different flight. And so I argued with my, my mom and dad were righteously indignant. Unfortunately for them, they were civil rights activists as teenagers. So when they told me we should just go home, I was like, no, you raised better. I'm going anyway.
- [08:29]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Nice.
- [08:30]
Stacey Abrams
Because I'd never been on a plane. I didn't know what I was talking about. And so they agreed to let me go. And so I'm like, I'm going on plane. Oh my God, this is really far and this is really high. And what was I thinking? And then we had like this weird layover in Wisconsin, but we finally get there. And so, yeah, my very first plane trip was an active, you know, bravery, stupidity, whatever you want to call it. And I went to Scottsdale, Arizona. It was lovely and I made a lot of good friends there. And I did not blame the kids on the trip. My Girl Scout troop members were awesome. They were fantastic.
- [09:06]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Sure.
- [09:06]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah. This was all, you know, an above the age of 18 set of decisions and they were, they were very kind and the Girl Scouts always took great care of me. So.
- [09:15]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Wow, we just totally stumbled on that story.
- [09:19]
Dori Shafrir
Yeah, that's a great story.
- [09:20]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
And I feel like it hasn't been told before.
- [09:23]
Stacey Abrams
I mentioned it a couple. I usually mention it in passing. It's, you know, it's one of those things where after a while you don't want to, you don't want to seem like everything is a moment of trauma and learning. But, you know, I've had a few experiences.
- [09:40]
Dori Shafrir
This is kind of a good intro to your new, your new book, your new children's book, which is called Stacy Speaks Up. We usually start by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have, but I feel like we can get to that in a little bit because this is such a good segue into what your book is about. So do you want to just tell our listeners a little bit about the book and you know, why you wanted to write it and kind of what you hope people take away from it.
- [10:09]
Stacey Abrams
Thank you. So Stacy Speaks up is the third in the Stacy series. And the first one, Stacy's Extraordinary Words, was about perseverance. The second one, Stacy's Remarkable Books, was about difference and how books bring us all together. And Stacy Speaks up is really about how we marry, empathy and advocacy. And so little Stacy's in the cafeteria hanging out with her friends, and she realizes that not everyone has a chance to eat. She fumbles the ball, so to speak, in trying to respond, but she knows it, and she decides to figure out how to do something about it. And so we watch her on her journey with her friends as she learns to take action and find her voice, but also that you can't solve other people's problems for them. And sometimes your job is to create space for folks to come in and solve them themselves. And I do all that in a really short book for kids.
- [11:03]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah. And what an important story. It's also really timely, Stacy, because it is about federally subsidized meals. And I think it's some 12 million American kids that benefit. What is going on with federal funding for school lunches right now under this administration or under the next congressional budget? Because I'd love to know if we can do anything if they are under threat.
- [11:27]
Stacey Abrams
Absolutely. So let's be clear. In the United States, almost a quarter of children face hunger at any given moment. And one of the ways as a society we have mitigated that hunger is school lunch. Subsidized school lunch. For some it's free. For others, it's subsidized, and they don't pay the full price. But the point is, no child should be hungry in school. One, it's morally wrong. Two, it's inefficient. Hunger is one of the leading predictors of the success of a child in the classroom. If they are too hungry to learn, we're going to pay for it later. So let's feed them. Unfortunately, right now, this administration has become very hostile to feeding children. And. And so we have watched through the usda. And just to be clear, the usda, the United States Department of Agriculture, controls and administers the program. So we've seen slashing of funding that helped food banks provide food to children. And now what's on the chopping block is actually providing the subsidies that states rely on, school districts rely on. The problem is that we are going to have a generation of children who have been literally starved for education because they can't take care of themselves. So you can call your congressional member. This is not a partisan issue, so do not decide. Oh, I'm not going to call them because I didn't vote for them. Don't tell them you didn't vote for them. Call them anyway. You should also call the school board members, because school board members have direct responsibility. Call your state legislator. Often these programs can be supplemented by state action. So make sure that no matter what level of government, they're putting children first, and make sure your kids know what you're doing. Because the other way we solve these problems is by letting them understand, not the nitty gritty, but the intention that we care about them and we care about their hunger, so we're going to do something about it. Often as adults, we want to do the thing to fix the problem, but we forget that the problems keep coming back. And so this is a moment to help your kids understand. And there's a great book. They'll walk you through it. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:35]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Well, you mentioned. Exactly. You mentioned marrying empathy and advocacy and these being such crucial lessons for young people. I think a lot of us are feeling this sense of guilt about the country or the world we're leaving for the next generation. What message do you want to give the young people? And what kinds of conversations might kind of help us with modeling or leading with empathy with our kids?
- [14:06]
Stacey Abrams
So we started this conversation about my time in the Girl Scouts. And what was important to me was when I landed in Scottsdale, the story had gotten to some adults about what had happened. And the first responsibility was to acknowledge that mistakes were made. Too often as adults, we like to pretend that no one made a mistake. Kids know the difference. They may not know whose fault it is, but they know something's not right. So our first responsibility is honesty. It's honesty contextualized for the age of the kid, but we still have to tell the truth. The second is then remorse. Not only did this happen, but we're sorry. Kids need to learn that saying I'm sorry is okay, especially from adults. There are a lot of people in prison because they didn't know how to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. And so they create these complex webs of lies and, you know, they try to hide from the consequences. Let's show remorse. And then the next step is, how do we remedy the problem? And so sometimes the remedy is, I hurt you. I'm going to do something nice for you. And at the policy level, it is, this is what you should have gotten. So let me work with you to make it so. But it's insufficient to just complain or blame. We have to be engaged in trying to do something. But where we sometimes get caught is that if we can't do everything, we don't do anything. Everything Everywhere all at Once is a great title for a film. It is a terrible mission Statement. And so our job is to do something somewhere soon. So when you see a problem, when you are in the midst of a tyrannical overthrow of the American government, for example, your job isn't to go to Washington unless that's where you were headed. But you can go to a food bank and make certain that someone who's hungry has help. You can go to a shelter because they're slashing the money for domestic violence shelters. Go and make sure you're volunteering. Find the issue that matters to you. And if it's age appropriate, take your kids so they can see what you're doing. And if it's not age appropriate, then tell the story in vague terms about how you were concerned about something, and this is what you did about it. Kids understand empathy. They understand action. What they don't always get is that they can do it, too.
- [16:22]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah, it just.
- [16:23]
Quince Advertiser
You.
- [16:23]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
You dredged up an old memory for me. Stacey Abrams. I remember when I was 11, it was the great flood of 1993 in St. Louis, where I grew up, and I. My parents took me out sandbagging or to fill sandbags, you know, and it was just this sense that we had a. We had a civic responsibility. We had a responsibility to each other.
- [16:43]
Stacey Abrams
Exactly.
- [16:44]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Even if our house wasn't threatened directly.
- [16:46]
Stacey Abrams
Exactly.
- [16:48]
Dori Shafrir
Well, we have been talking about your new children's book, but I am also a big fan of your thrillers. Yes. So, first of all, when is the next Avery Keen book coming out?
- [17:02]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I'm glad you asked. It's called Coded Justice. And it is Avery. You know, she's finally in the dream job she's imagined. She's at a law firm making a lot more money than she's made before, but she can't stay out of trouble. And so she takes on the client.
- [17:21]
Dori Shafrir
Yeah. I mean, to be fair, trouble often finds her.
- [17:28]
Stacey Abrams
In this case, she's trying to do her job. So she's got a client. She's an. She's an internal investigator. She's working for a big company that's about to go public. And it just so happens that there was a mysterious death before she got there.
- [17:41]
Dori Shafrir
And it made.
- [17:45]
Stacey Abrams
And she might have to work with her best friend. Friend. Her other best friend and her boyfriend to solve whether or not this was an inside job or if there's something wrong. And there is a ghost in the machine. It's one of the most fun books I've gotten to write in a really long time, and it comes out in July.
- [18:03]
Dori Shafrir
Oh, my goodness.
- [18:04]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Great pitch.
- [18:05]
Dori Shafrir
This is very exciting. If you have not. I'm addressing this to our listeners. If you have not read Stacey's two thrillers, and she has her third coming out in July. They are so great. I love a mystery. I love these kind of, like, political intrigue thriller books. So this was, like, so in my lane that, you know, when they came out, I was like, yes. And they're just so. They're so good. I also was like, oh, I really hope this is good, you know, because, like. Like, you want it to be good. Like, you're really hoping it's gonna be good. And then it was so good. So I'm very excited to hear that the new book is coming out. Your books, they always feel so of the moment, and I'm wondering, like, how do you draw on what's going on in the world? And how do you kind of bring it into the plot and the characters? Like, how does that work for you?
- [19:02]
Stacey Abrams
So my very first book was actually about environmental justice issues. It was based on my ex boyfriend's dissertation, and I decided to take some chemical that he discovered. The relationship didn't work, but the chemical was good anyway, so I turned it into this novel. And since then, I've always wanted to take complex topics, interesting ideas, problems that we're not really thinking about in the everyday zeitgeist, and make it accessible. So I use romance to talk about ethnobotany and forensic psychology. And the Avery Keen books, for me are another way of doing that, because the world is complex, but it's accessible. And so I try to take big, hairy problems that nobody wants to spend time learning about, and then bring it into a space where you can have fun in the adventure and if you finish it, knowing more. So in Avery's second outing in Rogue Justice, I dived into cryptocurrency, the frailty of the electric grid, and the FISA courts. But it's a lot of fun. In the very first one, I did bioethics and genomic research that I wrote, like, 10 years before we knew we could kill people with diseases like that. So I try to do things that are interesting, that feel complex and that feel out of reach, and my job is to pull it closer, to make it interesting and fun and exciting to learn about. I want experts to read my books and think that I respect them, even if I'm not completely accurate about what I know. And I want the average reader to feel like they are more grounded in a topic. And as a writer, if I can do all of those things while making your heart pound and your pulse race. And if you're in my romantic suspense, you want him to come for you. And if you're in my legal thrillers, you're really excited about who dies. But the whole point is I want you to enjoy the journey. But. But end it with the realization that you two are entitled to this information, this knowledge, and these opinions.
- [21:22]
Dori Shafrir
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
- [21:32]
Quince Advertiser
Guys.
- [21:32]
Mrs. Claus's Sister (T-Mobile Advertiser)
Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree, Zoe.
- [21:34]
T-Mobile Advertiser
This thing weighs a ton.
- [21:36]
Stacey Abrams
Live with your legs, man.
- [21:37]
Dori Shafrir
Santa Sant, did you get my letter?
- [21:39]
T-Mobile Advertiser
He's talking to you, Bridges.
- [21:40]
Stacey Abrams
I'm not.
- [21:41]
Mrs. Claus's Sister (T-Mobile Advertiser)
Of course he did. Right, Santa?
- [21:43]
Stacey Abrams
You know my elf Drew here. He handles the nice list.
- [21:46]
T-Mobile Advertiser
And elf. I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [21:56]
Mrs. Claus's Sister (T-Mobile Advertiser)
I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister. And AT T Mobile there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.
- [22:03]
Stacey Abrams
Or give it a does it give?
- [22:04]
Mrs. Claus's Sister (T-Mobile Advertiser)
And the best part? You can make the switch to T mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.
- [22:08]
Elise Hu
Nice.
- [22:08]
T-Mobile Advertiser
My side of the tree is slipping.
- [22:10]
Quince Advertiser
Kimber.
- [22:11]
Stacey Abrams
The holidays are better.
- [22:12]
Verizon Advertiser
AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed.
- [22:17]
Stacey Abrams
And now T Mobile is available in.
- [22:19]
Verizon Advertiser
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- [22:31]
Equip Health Advertiser
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- [23:43]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
You are such a prolific writer. I want to know if it comes easy for you or is it a struggle? And then a little bit just behind the curtain on the process. Are you an outliner or do you just stream of consciousness? Tell us a little bit more about how you approach writing since you have put out so many books now.
- [24:03]
Stacey Abrams
So my first job is to figure out the genre. So I have lots and lots of ideas and there are different vehicles for the stories I want to tell. So once I figure out which genre I want to be in, my next job is to tell myself a story. So I usually write a one pager where I say, this is what I think is going to happen. Here are the characters that I know. And then once I've done that, I do an outline and then write a longer synopsis to myself. And then I storyboard. So I lay out every single chapter. I am lying to myself in that process because I'm like, oh, this is linear. I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this. And so I convince myself that I know what I'm going to write and I believe it. As I'm doing it, I am convinced that this is what's going to happen. And then I start writing and the characters are like, whatever, here's what we're going to do now. So Coded justice started out with a very different protagonist or antagonist and a different outcome. But I really like what we figured out. I am a conduit for my imagination. And luckily I can type. I enjoy the process. It's not. I can't say it's not hard. I write pretty quickly, so there's an ease in that way. But I get stuck because I tell myself what I think is going to happen. The characters are like, yeah, I'm glad you had that. That's real cute. And then I have to figure out how to bring the two of us together or the five of us or the 10 of us, depending who's in my head at the time.
- [25:36]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of problem solving along the way if you're letting the characters follow their motivations.
- [25:42]
Dori Shafrir
I love how you describe, like, sometimes the characters just kind of do what they're gonna do. And I, you know, I've written one novel, so haven't written as many as you, but you also, you find that, like, you're just sort of like, oh, they're just, they're just doing this thing. I didn't know they were going to do this, but, yeah, they surprise you.
- [26:02]
Stacey Abrams
Or you'll write a scene. You're like, oh, she's so funny. I'm like, wait, you wrote it down? But I was very surprised. Like, she's so clever.
- [26:10]
Dori Shafrir
That was.
- [26:10]
Stacey Abrams
Oh, that was really sly. And like, I'm very impressed with what they do. Right.
- [26:15]
Dori Shafrir
Oh, she made a good choice there. I applaud you.
- [26:23]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Shall we back up a little bit and ask you the question we ask all of our guests, which is, what are you doing to take care of yourself lately?
- [26:31]
Stacey Abrams
So I watch an inordinate amount of television. I love tv. I love books. I love movies. I read voraciously. I watch movies. But television is the most effective matchmaking of, you know, emotion to, you know, activity that I can imagine. So when I am in this mood, I can go and find the show to tell me this. It's hit or miss with movies, but with tv, you can come back to the things that make you comfortable. You can challenge yourself. I love television. So right now I'm in the process of re watching the West Wing for very obvious reasons, like, I want a friend.
- [27:09]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Such a different world.
- [27:10]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, there's a, there's a comfort watch there. I just finished Reacher because I enjoy watching things blow up and reach people. Oh, I love Reacher. Yeah. Yeah. And I just finished the most recent season of the Diplomat, and then I am waiting for. Oh, and Black Doves is next on my list.
- [27:35]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Have you gotten into the pit yet?
- [27:39]
Stacey Abrams
Yes. So, okay, so I like the pit. I love Noah Wiley. I love the character characterizations. I can't watch Gore. I do not. I have to spend half of the episode looking away. So I really, really would love to. I could do ER because we had FCC rules about what network. Yeah, it wasn't streaming. Yeah, I, I can't do this. So I, I, I read about all of this episodes. I watched as many as I could. But, like, at a certain point, you're really just trying to hear dialogue. I'm so glad to hear you say.
- [28:11]
Dori Shafrir
This because Elise has been telling me I should watch the Pit. I should watch the Pit. And the other day I was like, okay, but is it gory? Like, how gory is it? And she was like, well, there's a few things. So I believe you, Stacy. I believe you.
- [28:27]
Stacey Abrams
I do have to turn away. I get queasy.
- [28:30]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
I like the characters so much. Just speaking of character work, there's nobody who's not likable. There's nobody on that show that I haven't come to care about a lot of. And so that's what really sold it for me. Maybe I need to give Reacher a try, too.
- [28:45]
Stacey Abrams
Reacher's on paracord now. Rickson is fantastic. Reacher is. It's eye candy. But it's also like, you just. You're excited about what he's going to do. He's a wonderful hero. And it's just fun. It is really fun. I will say this story when you are watching the Pit. So I watched the last three episodes because I saw too many clips on TikTok and like, I have to know what happened. There's a whole measles storyline. I'm like, I need to know. Anyway, so I've made my way through the last. And now I'm going to have to go back and watch the whole thing. I'm going to have to just kind of watch it like this with my hands over my eyes. I've never watched a full episode of anything on the Discovery Channel.
- [29:24]
Dori Shafrir
Like, I just can't. I can't.
- [29:26]
Stacey Abrams
I don't care what. Whatever's happening inside me. Congratulations. Just, you know, let me know if I need to tell someone, but I don't need to see it.
- [29:35]
Dori Shafrir
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So you have done. You have done children's books, you have done thrillers, you have done romance. Is there another genre that you feel like, oh, you know what? I think I'm going to tackle that.
- [29:48]
Stacey Abrams
Science fiction. I love science fiction. So my other comfort shows are anything that begins with Star and ends with Trek or Doctor who, like, so I would love to write a sci fi novel.
- [30:00]
Dori Shafrir
I would love to read one of your sci fi novels. So get on that is what I'm saying.
- [30:06]
Stacey Abrams
I'm sure he's one of mine too. So. Yes.
- [30:10]
Dori Shafrir
I know. In all your free time, just, you know, churn it out. No, but seriously, I think. I think that would be really, really great. My husband is very into Star Trek, so. Yeah, you share that in common.
- [30:24]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
You share that in common. I want to ask you a little bit about Community, Stacy, because you are a longtime lawmaker, you know, obviously quite active in government and activist circles, but you're coming to LA to be around writers and authors at the Festival of Books. I'd love to know what you get out of and why it's meaningful for you to be part of that community, the writerly, authorly community, specifically.
- [30:55]
Stacey Abrams
So when I was a kid, I was about 14, my mom warned me, she said, you don't want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. What I heard, what she meant was, pick something and focus on it. What I heard was, try everything. And the way that has made my life is that when people say, pick a lane, I've just decided I'm on a freeway. And that's how I operate. And so for me, writing is one of the lanes of my how I exist and how I meet the moment. It is important to me to be around writers and readers because the way we imagine a world is often how we create the next moment that we live. And so it is important for us to have writers who are tackling tough subjects, but also to have writers who are making it easy to get to the next moment. We need writers who are imagining nirvana and those who are telling us what the dystopian future will look like, sometimes in the same book, but always they are committed to the craft of imagination. And especially in dark moments, being around people who are not bounded by what has been, but who are willing to press for more is important. And readers, because they want the hope that comes with writing, good writing, they want the ability to escape and find somewhere new to be. But they know they've got to come back eventually. And I want them to have enjoyed the process. And for me, it's not different than what I do in my civic world or what I do in my political world, because all of this is about the story we want to tell about who we are. And I'm just privileged enough that I get to do it in multiple lanes and with different media. And in this case, I get to do it through the written word and to share it. And so it's always exciting for me to be around those who do it better, who do it different, and who can help me figure out how to do it right.
- [32:50]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
What are the books that you would take with you onto a desert island?
- [32:55]
Stacey Abrams
Ender's Game by Orson Scott Carr. And I know it's a little controversial, but it is one of the best stories that I've read about the arc of a young person's mind and how they think about the world. I love Alan Lightman's Einstein's Dreams. He's a physicist who imagined vignettes of how Einstein arrived at his general theory of relativity and it's lovely. Even if you don't think you care about science. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. I would bring Honest Illusions by Nora Roberts, one of my favorite romance novels ever. And I would bring the Intuitionist by Colson Whitehead, who is just extraordinary writer and whose love of language is unparalleled. And then, because I want to both challenge myself and worry, I would bring Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler.
- [33:48]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Dori Shafrir
What a great. Couldn't believe there was a fire.
- [33:51]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:52]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Believe there was a fire in Altadena in the year 2025.
- [33:56]
Stacey Abrams
I know.
- [33:59]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
So wild.
- [34:00]
Dori Shafrir
I wanted to go back to what you were saying about the freeway and. And. And the lanes on the freeway, because I feel like a theme that comes up often with our listeners is kind of career pivots at midlife. And I was wondering if you had any advice for people who are kind of in a rut or burned out or maybe feel like they want to do something different with their lives. How do they kind of change lanes on that freeway?
- [34:26]
Stacey Abrams
Sure. So I also write nonfiction, and I wrote this book called Lead from the Outside. And when I wrote the book, the first chapter is called Ambition, and the second chapter is about fear. And it was done in that order on purpose. Because our first job is. Is to know that we have the right to want more. We have the right to want something different. We have the right to imagine our lives going in a different way, and that's ambition. And too often, especially women, are told that we get what we get or that you had a chance to figure it out and now you're stuck with what you have. We don't want to fail. And so we tell ourselves that it's fear, but it's often that we don't feel comfortable with ambition. So that's the first job. The second is to know that you are really afraid. Fear is real. And people tell you to be fearful, fearless. I used to say that, and I apologize to anyone who heard me say that. Fear is real, but it can't be the only thing you feel. It's a good marker for what you need to focus on. I like to take my fear out to lunch, find out its favorite wine. Like, what is it? What is it like on its salad? Like, get to know your fear. Because if you know your fear, then you can prepare for it. And then the third is ask for help. When we are trying to change, we are so afraid of people being dismissive or being wrong that we try to do it all by ourselves. I have partners in almost everything I do, whether it's my editor or my business partner or my colleagues, when I'm in office, my campaign team, I do things with other people, in part because I've met me, and I should not be left to my own devices. But what you get with a partner is someone who can help you issue spot, but can also be your cheerleader, can be your sounding board, but can also be the person who reminds you when it gets hard, why you tried. So don't do it alone. Don't be afraid to do it. And don't limit yourself in believing that you can't do more.
- [36:19]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Well, one fear, especially at midlife, you know, both of us are in our 40s, a lot of our listeners are too, is that it's too late. Like, it's too late for a major change. Like, I couldn't go to med school or something now after being a journalist my whole life. What do you say to that?
- [36:33]
Stacey Abrams
My parents became United Methodist ministers at the age of 40 by going to Emory University to get their Master's of divinity. They had six children, only one of whom was in college. They had to work full time, go to school full time and make sure none of us did crazy, stupid things. So, yeah, but what I learned from them was again, like, do the thing that you're called to do. Don't. Don't change lanes. Don't switch your perspective because you think you have to do it, because if you don't, you're going to regret it. That solves a lot of problems. And, you know, I've done lots of different things. I try for things that don't work out. And that's the other thing. Be really, really good at not getting the thing you thought you wanted. I, I have publicly applied for a couple of jobs and been. And had my application rejected. And there are those who are befuddled by why I'm not more depressed and why would I put myself out there? It's because I don't define myself by what I get. I define myself by what I try.
- [37:38]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah.
- [37:38]
Stacey Abrams
And as long as you are trying for the thing that energizes you and excites you, something that has kept you up all night and something that would wake you up happy in the morning, then you have a responsibility to do it. Age is not that. That's not an excuse. I'm 51, so I'm older than you two. Show offs. But I, I don't mind trying new things because I've seen what happens when I don't get It. And it's not that bad.
- [38:09]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah, Yeah. I also know, you know, we, we want to stay away from explicit politics, but given the hostile government takeover that we're in.
- [38:20]
Stacey Abrams
Yes.
- [38:24]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
What do you say to Americans who are looking for leadership, looking for ways to. And trying not to feel hopeless?
- [38:32]
Stacey Abrams
Well, speaking of multiple lanes, I first encourage you to come to my podcast after you listen to every one of these episodes. We have a podcast called Assembly Required. And the whole point of the show is to say, here are these big, horrible, no good, terrible problems that we are having. Let's understand them. So we break down the problem into bite sized pieces and then we talk about, what do you do about it? What can you do? We can't fix all of this. I mean, this is, this is a systemic assault. But systems are made of people. And so our job is to figure out what part can we play, how can we be a cog in the wheels of change in the right direction. But you can't do it if you get overwhelmed by the problem, and you're going to get overwhelmed by the problem if you don't understand it. So we do the work of really explaining what's happening. But then the second thing is I need everyone to pick the thing that matters the most to them, that they can touch. Not the, not the esoteric and not the existential, but the thing that matters. If it's hunger with kids, if it is gun violence, whatever your thing is. If you are dedicated to addressing your thing and your friends are committed to addressing their thing. That's why we want this government to work. That's why we want democracy to work. That's why we want civil society to work. It's because we want the things to work for others and we want our ability to work together to be real. The best way to defeat tyranny is to not let it defeat us. Yes, we want. We want a leader to rise. We want a thousand leaders to rise. Sometimes we got to put our masks on ourselves and we've got to find our way there. Somebody's going to run for office. Someone's going to come up with a way to do something. But until that happens, it's not necessarily that we need new leaders. We just need people to show leadership.
- [40:26]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah.
- [40:26]
Stacey Abrams
And all of us can show leadership. All of us can show. This is how we can meet this moment. This is how we can push back against the overwhelming depression that this moment can bring or the numbness that we can feel. We don't have to have new leaders, but we can all Be part of providing leadership.
- [40:46]
Dori Shafrir
I love that. That's. It's very inspiring and I think a message that will really resonate with a lot of our listeners who are. I think there is the tendency to sort of feel like, oh, I need to take this all on and no one can do that. So I really, I really like that. Well, Stacy, before we let you go, one of our original Forever 35 questions was about skin care indulgences. So. So just for fun, totally different. On a totally different note, are there any beauty must haves that you feel so great about that you want to shout out?
- [41:23]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Shout out.
- [41:24]
Stacey Abrams
Okay, so I have really weird life. As this podcast is revealed to all and sundry. I've got to do a podcast every week and I travel a lot and then I go outside and talk to people and they look at my face and they're like, what did you do or not do? So I have three. I rotate so I have rare. Beauty does really, really great products, especially for when you've got to go fast and you don't have a makeup artist who can help you fix everything. Fenty does fantastic. Like, if you want to make sure you look hydrated and that you. You can't. We all can't smell as good as Rihanna, but we can look better than we thought. And Fenty is great. And then like, when I've got to do my high end things, Pat McGrath is amazing. I. I know she's going over to do even more amazing things, but she puts out some of the lightest weight things that make you look like you were born to somebody who actually had money. I was not, but I now know what rich people feel like when I can put Pat McGrath on my skin. What a great plug.
- [42:26]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
What a great plug for Pat McGrath. Put this on and know what it.
- [42:30]
Elise Hu
Feels like to be rich.
- [42:34]
Stacey Abrams
Honestly, seriously, she's got some great stuff, man. And more importantly, it makes you look like you knew what you were. So the reason I like Fenty, Rare Beauty and Pat McGrath, they all make you look like you knew what you were doing and you didn't watch 17 TikTok videos trying to explain makeup to you. I still don't know how to contour, but I can fake it.
- [42:53]
Dori Shafrir
I mean, you do have a lovely glow. So whatever you put on your face today. Yeah. Was really, it was really working. So you mentioned your podcast asked, is there anywhere else that you think our listeners would want to hear? You know, any. Anything else you want to kind of plug that our listeners might want to hear about from you? Any other tour? Are you touring at all for this book? Beyond the LA Times Festival Books. Okay.
- [43:18]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah. So the books will launch July 15th. Thank you. First of all, I just want to say thank you to both of you. This was such a fun conversation, and hopefully one day you'll have for us, too. This is amazing. It so. I am so coded. Justice comes out on July 15, and you should get it wherever you get your books, especially bookshop.org because it's one of my favorite places to get books. There will be a book tour, so if you follow me, follow me on all of the things, it's usually Stacey Abrams, so it's Stacy Abrams or whatever symbol they put in front of my name. And follow me, listen to me, read me, and tell me what you need to know. That's the most important thing. My greatest plug is I am privileged to be in a position where I can talk to folks, but I'm better at what I do when I can hear from them. So let me know what you need. Let me know what you want to know more about. Let me know what you want to read about. And I know I've got to get a science fiction novel written soon, but right after I do that, and, Elise, I'm waiting for you to tell me what I've got to write for you. And then after. After that, y' all could be up next.
- [44:24]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Definitely not gore.
- [44:25]
Stacey Abrams
No, I don't.
- [44:26]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
I don't want you to be telling me about the insides of eyeballs or anything.
- [44:29]
Stacey Abrams
I don't know what they're like. Anyway, I close my eyes. So there you go.
- [44:33]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Stacy Abrams, thank you so much.
- [44:35]
Dori Shafrir
This was so great. I really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you.
- [44:39]
Stacey Abrams
Likewise. Thank you, guys.
- [44:44]
Dori Shafrir
I mean, I. I know that it is, like, Stacy's job to be charming and personable, but I really did feel like, okay. Like, we could be friends, for sure. We could be friends.
- [44:56]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yeah. Could watch Reacher together.
- [44:58]
Dori Shafrir
If you want to get into Reacher Watcher together. And, you know, we could watch the Pit and cover our eyes from the gory parts.
- [45:07]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
She loves tv. I love how much she loves tv.
- [45:10]
Dori Shafrir
I love how much she loves tv. I also appreciated that she also does not like gore. And she writes these amazing, like, mystery thrillers that are so, so, like, they're just, like. She talks about how, like, she got, like, deep into, like, nerdy, like, FISA stuff, and you know what I mean? Like, like, it's. It's. They're all so, like, well reported and researched, but you don't feel like you're reading Like a textbook or anything. And I'm. Yeah, I, I just, I, I just really adored her. So my intention this week is to become friends with. No, Just kidding. It totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. So last week I said I just need to get through this week. And it was touch and go there for a while. But I think I, I managed. I managed.
- [46:02]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Yes.
- [46:03]
Dori Shafrir
Yeah. Achievement unlocked. I did, I did manage to do it and everything like went off pretty seamlessly in the end. So despite like my near meltdown at not being able to refrigerate my cake, the cake for Henry's party, but that was fine.
- [46:25]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Ended up surviving.
- [46:26]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah.
- [46:26]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
And getting refrigerated. And so did you.
- [46:29]
Dori Shafrir
Yes. So I actually mentioned this in my tennis newsletter. Court date courtdate.subset.com that I, I've like fallen off the wagon a little bit when it comes to my strength routine and I need to like get back into. Is just so important for like every aspect of not just like my tennis game, but my life. So I'm like, I'm like renewing my commitment to strength training.
- [47:00]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
My intention was sort of related last week which was just returning to movement because I needed to renew my commitment to moving around at all because I had just not exercised, I think for a week. And I could feel it like my joints really hurt and then I'm more injury prone than I already am. And so I did. I'm really glad. You know, I think I'm coming off of four straight weeks at airports, which in my non foreign correspondent life, I'm usually not at the airport that many weeks in a row. I take a lot of trips but like I usually get a week break in between. So now I have a two week break, which is nice. And in those two weeks I'm gonna like really use up all my class pass points and try to take a new class every day or try something new. But I did over the last week or so play more tennis than I usually do, which was great. We love that Rob was able to move around enough to play with me because he is still nursing that long term ankle injury from doing parkour in a bouncy house. Which jokes on Rob really. I mean. This week, this week my intention is to like is time management. It's time management because I've said yes to a bunch of like side things and then I'm still managing my production company reasonable volume and we have various projects that we're trying to bring in or pilot and start and so I feel like I wish I had an executive coach or could pay for an executive coach because it's, it's that level of like, I need some scrutiny, you know, to understand my days better.
- [48:44]
Dori Shafrir
Yeah.
- [48:45]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
And so I'm just gonna try and like blackout times or figure out some time management hacks. So listeners, if you have any good ones or books that you have read or methods that you follow, call in all the typical ways. 781-591-0390 True.
- [49:01]
Dori Shafrir
I love that. All right, well listeners, thank you so much for listening. Elise, always great to chat with you. And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Shafreer and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is acast. Thanks everyone so much. We'll talk to you soon.
- [49:24]
Co-host (possibly Elise Hu or Dori Shafrir)
Talk to you next time.
- [49:25]
Dori Shafrir
Bye.
- [49:28]
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