Vibe Check Drops In On Forever35

Summary

Podcast Summary: Forever35 Episode – "Vibe Check Drops In On Forever35"

Release Date: July 7, 2025
Hosts: Doree Shafrir & Elise Hu
Guests: Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, Zach Stafford (Hosts of Vibe Check)

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Introduction

In this special crossover episode of Forever35, hosts Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu welcome the hosts of the popular podcast Vibe Check—Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, and Zach Stafford. This episode blends the self-care and humor typical of Forever35 with the pop culture insights and candid conversations characteristic of Vibe Check. Together, they delve into a myriad of topics ranging from climate activism and celebrity culture to the intricacies of friendship and the evolving concept of Americana.

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Sponsor Messages

The episode begins with Doree Shafrir endorsing One Skin, highlighting their scientifically proven skincare products designed to combat aging at the cellular level. Elise Hu follows with a promotion for Gab, emphasizing their family-friendly technology solutions to manage teenage screen time. Additionally, advertisements for Shopify, NOCD therapy services, and State Farm are interspersed throughout the episode.

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Transition to Vibe Check

At [03:53], Doree and Elise seamlessly hand over the spotlight to Sam, Saeed, and Zach. They introduce Sam Sanders as a talented interviewer and pop culture commentator, and highlight Saeed Jones's literary background and Zach Stafford’s involvement with the US Open Board. The hosts affectionately refer to each other as "ladies," setting a warm and engaging tone for the discussion.

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Main Discussions

1. The Bezos-Sanchez Wedding and Climate Activism ([08:50] - [13:02])

The conversation kicks off with Saeed Jones expressing his fascination with the extravagant Bezos-Sanchez wedding, particularly critiquing its environmental impact. He shares:

"The fossil fuel emissions are damning to a place like Venice. So I'm happy they showed out." ([10:02])

Zach Stafford adds humor while critiquing the fashion choices:

"How do you make a Schiaparelli gown look cheap?" ([09:12])

Sam Sanders laments the contradictory presence of climate activist Leonardo DiCaprio at the event:

"It's literally doing everything he could to. I'm like, you're gonna be there, but you don't want us to know you're there." ([10:03])

The trio underscores the effectiveness of public protest in mitigating environmental damage, as seen when local Venetians successfully pressured the couple to relocate their ceremony due to excessive environmental degradation.

2. ICE Raids in Los Angeles ([13:02] - [15:48])

Zach Stafford shifts the focus to the alarming increase in ICE activities in Los Angeles, sharing personal experiences of fear and community impact:

"This is the first time in my life I've been having to make safety plans with people in my life." ([13:06])

Saeed recounts a distressing phone call from a friend during a protest:

"She was weeping on the phone and she's like, sam, are you safe?" ([14:40])

The hosts emphasize the pervasive fear and disruption caused by ICE raids, with Saeed noting:

"It's sad. The taco stands are gone. No one's leaving. So that's what's going on." ([15:38])

3. Entertainment Amidst Societal Tensions ([15:48] - [24:59])

Despite the tense climate, the hosts highlight lighter topics such as the new Love Island spin-off, Love Island Beyond the Villa, which humorously places contestants in East LA—a nod to the ongoing ICE activities:

"They are literally still on this island in Fiji, falling in love in real time." ([16:27])

Sam Sanders promotes the Vibe Check merchandise and upcoming Chicago live show, blending promotional content with personal anecdotes about maintaining community connections.

4. Reflections on Friendship and Time ([25:35] - [30:53])

Zach Stafford shares a poignant personal reflection on how distance accelerates the perception of time between friends:

"Time moves fast with distance. And I want there to be less distance right now in my life." ([28:07])

Saeed Jones echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the importance of valuing time spent with loved ones:

"I want every use of my time as much as I can to be what feels right with the people that feel right around me." ([28:50])

Sam Sanders adds to the conversation by advocating for deeper, more embodied interactions beyond digital communications.

5. Mindfulness and the Importance of Play ([30:53] - [41:28])

Saeed Jones recounts attending the Aspen Ideas Festival and moderating a panel on the art and science of play. He shares insights from Dr. Stuart Brown on how play is essential for resilience and community building:

"Play resets us. It builds resilience. It builds intelligence. It builds community." ([38:48])

Zach Stafford connects this to broader societal needs, linking the lack of play to increased violence and emphasizing its necessity alongside rest.

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Americana and Cultural Reflections ([43:03] - [65:23])

As Independence Day approaches, the discussion pivots to the evolving concept of Americana, particularly in the context of Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter performance. The hosts analyze how Beyoncé’s reinterpretation of American symbols critiques traditional patriotism and reflects a more diverse, inclusive perspective.

Saeed Jones delves into the historical roots of American patriotism, highlighting the often-overlooked contributions of Black Americans:

"Black people built this country. We taught it how to be patriotic." ([58:58])

Zach Stafford introduces the term "Trad Pop Summer," critiquing the shift towards more conservative and traditional sounds in mainstream music and its implications for American culture. The conversation underscores the fragmentation of a unified American identity, favoring diverse and individualized interpretations of patriotism.

Sam Sanders further elaborates on the multifaceted nature of Americana, questioning the viability and desirability of returning to a monocultural display of patriotism. The hosts collectively advocate for a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of American identity, celebrating the freedom to express diverse cultural narratives.

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Promotional Breaks and Recommendations

Interspersed with the discussions, the hosts promote Vibe Check merchandise, upcoming live shows, and encourage listener engagement through social media and Patreon. They also share personal recommendations:

• Zach Stafford revisits Brokeback Mountain on its 20th anniversary, reflecting on its cultural impact and personal memories tied to the film.

• Saeed Jones endorses Lizzo’s new album, My Face Hurts From Smiling, appreciating her embrace of authenticity and empowerment.

• Sam Sanders shares a poem titled "Tired of Love Poems" by Megan Fernandez, highlighting its emotional depth and relevance.

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Closing Remarks

In the final segments, the hosts express gratitude towards their production team and listeners, reiterating their commitment to fostering meaningful conversations about self-care, culture, and community. They encourage listeners to engage with their content, attend live events, and continue the dialogue on Amercian identity and personal well-being.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Saeed Jones on time and distance:

  "Time moves fast with distance. And I want there to be less distance right now in my life." ([28:07])

• Zach Stafford on play and resilience:

  "Play resets us. It builds resilience. It builds intelligence. It builds community." ([38:48])

• Saeed Jones on Black contributions to patriotism:

  "Black people built this country. We taught it how to be patriotic." ([58:58])

• Zach Stafford on Trad Pop Summer:

  "Trad pop is about how pop music itself is beginning to sound very Christian, very traditional, very conservative." ([54:06])

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Conclusion

This episode of Forever35 provides a rich tapestry of conversations that intertwine personal reflections with broader cultural and political commentary. By featuring the insightful perspectives of the Vibe Check hosts, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of contemporary issues, enriched with humor, empathy, and a deep sense of community.

Transcript

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Dory Shafrir]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Dory Shafrir]

That's, yeah, every working, every like waking minute is spent on a screen.

[Elise Hu]

I, yeah, it seems like it's a full time job. Just scrolling. There's no right answer for managing screens and your kids, but the numbers don't lie. 45% of girls and 32% of boys say they feel overwhelming stress from being on social media. And together, a quarter of them both feel worse, worse about their own lives. I think it's a real attention stealer. It's a thief of attention. And so I'm often, I'm often like with my screen teen, I'm like, hello, Ava, you still there? You still there? So we definitely have to be very thoughtful about the way that she engages with screens because it does require so much of her attention. But so here's the good news. Gab has solved some of the screen teen problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to increased features in parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens, each device grows with your child. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. I can't recommend Gab enough. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gab.com forever35 and use code forever35 for a special offer.

[Dory Shafrir]

Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Shafrir.

[Elise Hu]

And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

[Dory Shafrir]

And today we are not going to be talking about serums.

[Elise Hu]

No, you're not going to hear that much of us at all actually, because we are turning over the show today to our friends Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford, who are the hosts of Vibe Check. Last summer, we had the pleasure of having Sam Sanders on our show and he not only hosts Vibe Check, he also hosts the Sam Sanders show on kcrw. And he's just one of the best interviewers and pop culture observers around. So while we're out this week, we get to drop in our feed the latest episode of Vibe Check, which is Sam's podcast that he co hosts with the poet Saeed Jones, who worked with Dory at buzzfeed, and the writer and producer Zach Stafford, who, fun fact, he recently joined the US Open board or foundation or something. And so he was photographed seated next to Anna Wintour at the US Open last year, which was like the height. Yeah, he was like, I've arrived.

[Sam Sanders]

This was.

[Elise Hu]

This was my dream. This was a bucket list thing.

[Dory Shafrir]

Oh my God.

[Elise Hu]

Each week they tackle what's going on in their lives and in the wider world. It's like your favorite group chat come to life. And if you like this episode, make sure you follow and subscribe to Vibe Check wherever you listen. We love these ladies. As you'll hear, they call each other ladies and we know you will too.

[Saeed Jones]

Hello, class. We're Back in session, are we?

[Sam Sanders]

It's still summer, girl.

[Saeed Jones]

Did you hear the bell?

[Zach Stafford]

The bell. Oh, my God.

[Sam Sanders]

We are in summer school.

[Zach Stafford]

Summer school.

[Saeed Jones]

There we go.

[Zach Stafford]

In summer school.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes. I am not the valedictorian. I'm Sam Sanders. Happy to be in class.

[Sam Sanders]

I graduated cum laude from the Dumb Bitch Summer School of Education. I am Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

Oh, I love that. And I got the superlative of Most likely to succeed in high school. But because of the theme of Dumb Bitch Summer, it will be changed to Most likely to be the Dumbest bitch this summer. And this is Zach Stafford, and you're.

[Saeed Jones]

Listening to Vibe Check, Summer School Edition.

[Sam Sanders]

Damn, I know your yearbook is big. That was a long superlative, baby. That was.

[Zach Stafford]

I know there was a long, very long. Explains a lot.

[Saeed Jones]

You deserve.

[Sam Sanders]

You deserve. But you're right, though. You're right, though.

[Saeed Jones]

Were you in homecoming court or prom court?

[Zach Stafford]

Me?

[Saeed Jones]

Yes. Oh.

[Zach Stafford]

Let me tell you something about my high school. I planned prom, but I was never king. I planned everything. I was on yearbook, I did newspaper, I did all of it. So I was, like always behind the scenes. I never was all the things. I got two superlatives in high school when everyone got one, so it did the most. But my sister, my dear, sweet younger sister. Prom queen, homecoming queen, class president.

[Saeed Jones]

Wow.

[Zach Stafford]

The baddest.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay, you know we love Monet.

[Saeed Jones]

And you're not jealous. You're not jealous. We love Monet.

[Sam Sanders]

It makes a lot of sense, but as for you, it's very much giving. Gay choir director at the homophobic church.

[Zach Stafford]

Oh, big fat energy. That was my life in high school.

[Saeed Jones]

Can I tell y' all my prom story? Before I was all the way gay, I was dating a young woman in high school. In large part because I thought she might make homecoming court. She didn't. We broke up. I'm a person.

[Sam Sanders]

Wait, you dumped her because she didn't make court?

[Saeed Jones]

There were other reasons. Not many.

[Sam Sanders]

That was the. Okay.

[Zach Stafford]

Sam, have you unpacked that in therapy?

[Sam Sanders]

I wasn't always saying, has she unpacked that in therapy?

[Saeed Jones]

She's a lesbian now. It all worked out.

[Sam Sanders]

There you go.

[Saeed Jones]

It all works out.

[Sam Sanders]

There you go. Surprising no one, I got most dramatic male.

[Saeed Jones]

Uh huh.

[Zach Stafford]

Most dramatic mail. I love, but.

[Sam Sanders]

All right, my loves, we are back on the mic after a month's worth of live shows. I hope you've enjoyed listening to them. It's been really fun. You know, as we've all been jet setting out and about in the world, we've been listening along with you. But today, we Are so excited to be back on the mic, and we're going to reflect on our time away. Like, it's going to be like our, like, you know, like your summer reflections. What did you do on summer vacation? And we're going to do that first. And then July 4th is coming up. I totally forgot. Which feels meaningful. But, of course, Independence Day is coming up this weekend. And so we also wanted to talk about the state of Americana, and I'm really looking forward to that conversation. Before we get into all of that. Oh, sisters, so much has happened. Let's check in. This is gonna be more of a, like, what is your news? Pop culture vibe, because, oh, so much is going on. Sam, let's start with you.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. I was and continue to be obsessed with the hot mess that was the Bezos Sanchez wedding.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, God. I couldn't get enough. I was texting Aunt Betty the last three days, being like, did you see her in this dress? Did you see her in this dress? She looks like a praying mantis. What is going.

[Zach Stafford]

She did look like a praying mantis. That is incredible.

[Sam Sanders]

How do you make a Schiaparelli gown look cheap?

[Zach Stafford]

Right? It looks so cheap.

[Saeed Jones]

And the corseting was so much where it looked like torture.

[Sam Sanders]

Uncomfortable.

[Zach Stafford]

Anywho. Yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

I was obsessed watching her and the bad looks. I was obsessed watching the tackiness of the wedding, even though they spent allegedly $60 million on it. They had a pajama party the night after. They had a foam party on one of their mega yachts. Just.

[Zach Stafford]

They had carpet as part of the wedding ceremony. They laid out carpet, put chairs on it on top of grass. What is wrong with no taste?

[Saeed Jones]

But what has been giving me life throughout the entire saga of this Bezos Sanchez wedding is that the people of Venice, Italy said, I bet you won't.

[Sam Sanders]

Bet you won't.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, they were mad.

[Howie Mandel]

I bet you won't.

[Saeed Jones]

They were mad. They were mad. Right? Right. So at first, the Bezos family. Oh, God, I hate even saying that. I'm sorry. The Bezos wanted to rent the entire town of Venice, Italy. They were renting the entire town. But after so many protests throughout the city from folks who lived there, they had to move the day of ceremony to a smaller, private location. And it's just a sign. Protest works. It freaking works. And I'm glad that they protested it, because the very things that Bezos and his guests were doing are making life in places like Venice worse. There were 90 private jets that came into Venice for this wedding.

[Zach Stafford]

Wild.

[Saeed Jones]

The fossil fuel emissions are damning to a place like Venice. So I'm happy they showed out.

[Sam Sanders]

I love you. Brought up the private jets in particular and the fossil fuels, because you know me, you know how I am. In addition to the fashions and the uncovered. I was like, wow, you really can, you can buy whatever you want in the world, but you can't buy taste. And this was a master class in that. But I was really interested to see, quote unquote, climate change celebrity activist Leonardo DiCaprio there. And it's literally doing everything he could to. I'm like, you're gonna be there, but you don't want us to know you're there. Totally. Because of, you know, what was it? Don't look up his film talking about climate change. I'm like, very confusing. And then Oprah Winfrey, you know, I stay on the Oprah Winfrey Watch. Last summer, you too. Last summer she gave a primetime speech at the dnc. This summer she is at the wedding of Jeff Bezos, who donated at least a million dollars to Trump's inauguration and probably has done much more. I mean, it's just, that's what I was clocking.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, yeah. And just the grift. So they had 200 guests there, but apparently only 70 were actual family. The rest were just celebrities. And it just, it feels so sad and small when you're just boosting your wedding guest list to have people like Jewel in attendance.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. And also when you think about Bezos went through his divorce with his ex.

[Saeed Jones]

Wife, who is Mackenzie, who was a good philanthropist. We love her.

[Zach Stafford]

That was in 2019. That was just five, six years ago. Look how much his life has changed and how shallow that life has become with all that money. That's all I kept thinking of. And you know, Mackenzie is just sitting at her home, you know, giving billions to people who need it with no strings attached to. With no strings attached, being like, yeah, I'm going to heaven. I don't know about y' all and.

[Sam Sanders]

Am I tripping, but isn't. Isn't Venice one of those European. It's the city with all the canals. Right. So, you know, to me, in terms of Europe, you know, Cause you're talking about climate change and the fossil fuels and you know, Bezos is very much a part of the class that like, if Bezos changed his policies, he could single handedly do more, you know, to fight climate change than any individuals, you know, in front of us. And like that city is underwater, like it's sinking because of all of this. So it's, it's just a lot.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

Big through line. The protest worked. They moved the ceremony.

[Sam Sanders]

Get loud. Get loud.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Zach, what about you?

[Zach Stafford]

Well, I guess in similar vein, you know, we're going to get more into, like, our feelings and our vibes about our lives and the future and culture in a minute. But, you know, in terms of news, the thing that's been really weighing heavy on me and really impacting my life, and I think your life as well, Sam, is just how ice has descended onto Los Angeles. And I, you know, I live in East Ish la. You know, there's a whole. When you live in la, people think Silver Lakes, east la. That's not actually east la. Boyle Heights is East la, but I live in the what white people think of as east la, and that is area is being targeted.

[Sam Sanders]

Caucasian.

[Zach Stafford]

East Caucasian. East. Not Latino. East Caucasian. East la. Only Angelinas are gonna find that funny. But with this, you know, I have reported on ICE before. I have been across the border, I have seen their impact, all this stuff. This is the first time in my life I've been having to make safety plans with people in my life. Getting people Ubers, you know, crowdsourcing for people in my life who, like, need more resources because they can't take the bus, they can't walk down certain streets because ICE is literally everywhere. So just really, really scary time here in la. And it's also just terrifying to see how much it can be used against us in this way that the media does so well, which is those protests that made the news a few weeks ago with the Waymo's on fire was literally like a half of a half of a block of la. It was the smallest place. It was right down the street from my house. A pride parade was also happening in LA at the same time, and no one noticed. And yet I have never had so many phone calls from people in my life thinking like, we were at war, that people were getting shot. It was just so crazy.

[Saeed Jones]

My friend Ashley, who you've met before, from Texas.

[Zach Stafford]

Yes.

[Saeed Jones]

She called me during the protest. I was in Spain for a wedding. She can't get ahold of me. She calls other friends of mine. I finally hear from her, she's weeping on the phone and she's like, sam, are you safe? Do you need to come to San Antonio? And stay away.

[Sam Sanders]

Wait a minute. Not the weeping.

[Saeed Jones]

It's like, ashley, no, it's okay. And I love my friends who love me.

[Sam Sanders]

Why in the situation, because, you know, it's. You see it and you're like, I think it. And I just send like a. Zach, you good?

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay to send a. You good?

[Saeed Jones]

This is what's been so frustrating. We have nonstop wall to wall coverage of that. Meanwhile, ICE has been doing raids of parks, sweeping up maids and detaining the toddlers till the parents can come get them. Cover that.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, it's awful. I was out for a walk in Elysian park this weekend where I see some vibe check list centers sometimes. That park is usually packed on Sundays with Latino families barbecuing, hanging out, taking a day of rest, dead. Like, it was just no one was there. It was so quiet. And they're expecting July 4th to also be similarly quiet.

[Saeed Jones]

They canceled events here in Los Angeles. I noticed in my neighborhood it's quieter too. And the ice cream man has stopped coming by.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow.

[Zach Stafford]

Yes, it's sad.

[Saeed Jones]

It's sad.

[Zach Stafford]

The taco stands are gone. I was talking to someone in their neighborhood. They live in even, like more immigrant neighborhood than mine. She was saying that no one even goes outside anymore. You just look down the street, just quiet. No one's leaving. So that's what's going on. But on the the other side of this coin, I have found out that Love island, one of my most, you know, prized television shows, has a new spin off called after the Villa or something, where they take last year's contestants and they put them into the real world. The real world that they're putting them into is also east la. Okay. They're out here hiking a legion and out here like living a lifetime.

[Saeed Jones]

ICE to pick them up.

[Zach Stafford]

I mean, maybe, honestly, some of these.

[Sam Sanders]

Men, I was like, I trust that Zach is going to bring us around.

[Saeed Jones]

Zach always lands a plane.

[Sam Sanders]

Captain Sully, not quite seeing it.

[Zach Stafford]

Thank you. I was in a slump about LA and everything going on. And then last night I was watching Love Island. They said, we have an announcement. We have a new spin off called Love island beyond the Villa. And I saw the footage. I was like, this is my neighborhood. I love Zuck.

[Saeed Jones]

My thing is like how many episodes per season?

[Zach Stafford]

Oh, you don't know how this works. Isn't it like daily they release a new episode Daily? It's a day.

[Saeed Jones]

Weeks. These people, anything I do daily, I should get paid for.

[Zach Stafford]

Listen, I should get paid how much I invest in these people. They are literally still on this island in Fiji, falling in love in real time. It's wild.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm good.

[Zach Stafford]

So anyway.

[Saeed Jones]

Ok. Ok. Saeed, how are you?

[Sam Sanders]

I am so happy Love island is bringing you joy.

[Zach Stafford]

Thank you.

[Sam Sanders]

You know what I mean?

[Zach Stafford]

It is. And dystopia. It's finding. It's finding me.

[Sam Sanders]

Well, what I wanted to talk about in the news, I was able to visit some friends briefly in Columbus in part to celebrate the galleys of the People's Project arriving. So Maggie Smith and Maggie hang out.

[Saeed Jones]

And I say at every ment. Have y' all pre ordered?

[Sam Sanders]

Listen, please pre order it. It comes out this September. We'll be announcing the book tour soon. Very exciting. But also, you know, I love drag, and there's a huge drag scene in Columbus. I also realized, you know, as I've, like, left, that Columbus to this day remains the only place where when I go to a drag show, it is just as likely for me to see drag kings performing as it is to see drag queens. And, you know, just like a real kind of gender diversity. Cis drag queens, everything too. But what was really cool is that I was at a drag show, you know, having a good time. We went like three or four nights in a row. But, you know, the New York City Democratic primary for mayor woo was happening. And I've been bracing myself as I think many of us, even if you don't live in New York City, obviously New York City, I mean, it's the largest city in the country. It represents a lot to us politically, symbolically. And Cuomo represents a lot to us too, politically and symbolically. And I was just, like, bracing myself. So just imagine being at a drag show, twirling with your friends, having a good time, celebrating, you know, the last few days of Pride. And you see Zoran Mondavi declared the winner of that primary. Baby, what a vibe shift. I am overjoyed. It is incredible to see how his campaign gained momentum. It's wonderful to see that young voters, voters, I believe, 18 to 24, oh, their turnout was unprecedented. It's like, yeah, give young people someone to vote for and they will show up in elections. I think there's so many lessons, and I just wanna say I'm very excited about him. I saw him marching at Pride. I saw Eric Adams getting booed at Pride. But something I think about a lot is after November election, Zach said it's a clarifying time. And I think seeing good, bad in between, you know, the Democratic establishment, people like Hakeem Jeffries doing everything they can to distance themselves from Zoran. When they're like, y' all been looking for, like, we need the second wind. We need the new da da da da da. But also seeing young people respond, it's just a Clarifying time. So I would say be excited, but also pay attention. You know what I mean? And I think that's a lot to take away. That's my vibe.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm so glad you bring it up, because he represents something that we have talked about on this show before. So as soon as he wins, I text friend of the show, Maurice Mitchell from the Working Families Party, because Zo Ron was a Working Families Party in Dorsey, and he's worked with them before. And actually, in this last election for New York, the Working Families Party cleaned up. They really cleaned up. I said, maurice, feels like Zoran got what you and I talked about before on this show. The quickest way to get the most voters to listen to you, the quickest is to talk about their fucking pocketbook. The centerpiece of his campaign was the rent's too damn high. Everything's too expensive. Your life in New York is unaffordable. Unaffordable. And he got that, and he said it. And I'm always thinking about the next election, and I'm like, gosh, I hope the Democrats are watching this. I hope that they are. You know, Anywho, made me happy.

[Zach Stafford]

I agree so much. And something I found really telling is in the data we're getting from who voted for who and where they live and what their communities look like. For Zoran, he cleaned up in spaces in which there was incredible diversity, where there wasn't a lot of homogeneity, where it wasn't very white or only white or only black or only this. But when people lived in communities that sat at intersections, he was so strong. And that is the future of this country, and that's what young people are looking for as well.

[Saeed Jones]

And I just. I'm glad that this moment happened, because I think there was a lot of energy on the left after Trump won this past November. They're like, oh, that's the last election. It's over, it's done. There may always be another one. You gotta keep hope alive. You know, we're close to some midterms. Let this be some hope. I don't know. I think of the three of us, I'm the one who's still like, politics can still work, but for it to.

[Zach Stafford]

Work, Hakeem Jeffries needs to wake the hell up and really pay attention to this, because those people, the fact, to your point, Zayed, they look at him and they're like, let's find ways to diminish him. Is just so insane. Like, you guys just want to keep losing, don't you? Like, he is showing you how to win and you're saying, no, thank you.

[Sam Sanders]

Pay attention to how people respond to good news. You know, if before something happens, they're like, I wish this would happen. I wish this would happen. And then it happens and they go, aw. Okay, clarifying time, clarifying time. Okay, we've got to move on. But before we get into the rest of the show, we have a couple of updates. I'll do one of them. We love our merch girl. The team we work with at SiriusXM is so wonderful and responsive and very fast. So good news. You've probably seen this on our social media. We now have summer shirts that say leave it in Chantel. Sam is modeling one right now. Give us a twirl.

[Saeed Jones]

They're really cute.

[Sam Sanders]

Give us a little show off the girls.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sam Sanders]

Leave it in Chantel. And I'm also personally delighted to share that there are now dumb bitch summer tank tops.

[Zach Stafford]

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

We did it.

[Zach Stafford]

We did it. We really did it.

[Saeed Jones]

And that was quick. Also, shout out to Sirius. Cause the Devil works fast, but Serious Merch team works fast.

[Zach Stafford]

And specifically, we'll just say their names. Hannah and Marissa.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, shout out to y'. All.

[Zach Stafford]

The Lords work super fast on this. So now, so now, everyone, we are set up with a shop that can move fast and be responsive to all of our merch needs. Welcome to a new era of vibe.

[Saeed Jones]

I love it.

[Zach Stafford]

And speaking of new era vibe, check. We just wrapped a bunch of shows on the East Coast. But this month, July 17, we will be going to Chicago for the first time for a live show that's very different than anything we've ever done before because this live show is only for about a hundred people. There's an open bar, there's food. You get to hang out with us. You can find out [e-mail] vibecheck but you should definitely come hang out with us. Spots are going really fast because it's kind of free. You sign up for our Patreon, you can cancel next month if you don't wanna stay around. But it gets you access to an AMA with us, an open bar, and a really fun time in Chicago, my spiritual home.

[Saeed Jones]

And I believe it's going to be Ask Me Anything themed. So we're gonna be talking about everything. Let it all hang out, and it'll.

[Sam Sanders]

Be just for y'.

[Zach Stafford]

All.

[Sam Sanders]

So you really can't ask us anything. You know what I mean?

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, you really can.

[Sam Sanders]

We can really get into the tea. We can really get into the I'm excited about that. And of course, as always, we want to thank all of you who continue to listen to the show each and every week. We cannot thank you enough for your support. Don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] and of course, obviously, we're excited about our Chicago show. So we have to give a special shout out to those of you who are already subscribed to our Patreon. If you want to join the group chat, you can find us at patreon.com vibecheck I might put some of my summer reading recommendations on there because I've been reading so many books and I don't always get to talk about them, so maybe I'll do that. Okay, so that would be for me.

[Saeed Jones]

Do a stacks photo like Tracy does.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, that. She's too good at it. You know what I mean? I just got. I just got to let the chopper spray. You know what I mean? I don't. I don't have her aesthetic vision. All right, for now, let's jump into the rest of the show. Let's go.

[Saeed Jones]

All right, class, let's begin summer session number one, Vibe Check edition. First day back at school after a month off. For this segment, we wanna continue this theme of catching up after a long time away from our regular taping schedule. We haven't been in regular taping mode for a month, so for this episode, we're gonna keep it very elementary school and share something we learned or something we loved during our time away in June. Think of it as the first day back at school. Like Saeed said, sharing how your summer vacation went. Let's just get into it. Share one thing, something you learned about yourself, something that life is teaching you a lesson, a special treat, whatever it is, anything. Zach, you go first. What's your show and tell?

[Zach Stafford]

So my show and tell is a phrase that kind of hit me this morning that I want to tease out because it hit me while I was drinking coffee and I was like, yeah, this feels like what I've learned over the past month. Because as some of you know, that follow me on social media. You know, like all of us on this show, we've been traveling, but I spent some time in Europe. I was there for a big birthday of a dear friend. I was there for Beyonce. I had some work stuff, but I've been moving and grooving. I've been all over the place. But at the core of that, I've been with a lot of friends who I've known My whole life. So it's felt like this interesting walk down memory lane with a lot of people I don't see very much. And it made me realize today that I very much am feeling lately that time moves much faster when there's distance. And what I mean from that is that in regards to friendships, some of my friends, like my friend David, we celebrated his 40th. And I realized the last time he and I had been on a real trip together was during my 30th, which was five years ago. And it felt so like just the other day, but so much time had passed, and our relationship's still the same. But I was like, wow. I. In this moment, I don't like that we only see each other during tentpole moments. Like, I want to see you in those middle moments. And I realized in that moment that that would make this feel a lot slower if we had seen each other lately. Similar with that thinking with work. There are projects in my life lately that, as summer happens, you know, work kind of slows down. You kind of get reflexive about things. And there are certain things in my life that I've been working on for years, but I don't really show up for them all the time. You know, it's something I come to here and there, and thus time has just sped right past it, and it feels super, super far away. And what really, like, why this thought came to mind this morning was another friend, Waverly, who listens to the show, sent me a photo of him and my mom and his partner drinking Martin. And I realized that picture was from 14 years ago. And I could remember every detail of that moment. And I haven't seen Waverly in six years. And because we don't have a lot of time between us, there's distance. And this has felt so fast. Like, that felt like the other day, and he wrote me, he said, time flies, boo. That's all he said back to me. And I was like, time does fly, boo. So right now, as I'm sitting in the summer moment of, you know, my life's not as chaotic as it typically is. I have time to reflect and think about the future. I want to slow time down a lot. I want to spend more time with people. I had dinner with a friend who was my mentor when I was 19, and she lives in LA, and I've just not made it a priority to see her since she moved to la. And I was like, you know what? We gotta have dinner. And we did. And time now feels like it's moving slower between us. Cause now we're building more moments between us. So that's where I'm at right now. It's really. Time moves fast with distance. And I want there to be less distance right now in my life.

[Saeed Jones]

I love that.

[Sam Sanders]

I love that.

[Saeed Jones]

I mean, I feel like what you're saying is what I just find to be more and more true every year. Time is more precious than most of the other things we have in this life, and we never take it seriously enough, you know, and it's like, for me, the lesson in just hearing you talk about this experience with time over the last few weeks and this summer, it's like, I want to be very sure that I'm not wasting my time. And I think a lot of times we think when someone says, don't waste your time, we're speaking about optimization, culture. How can you optimize and do the most in the least amount of time? I'm not saying that. I'm saying I want every use of my time as much as I can to be what feels right with the people that feel right around me. You know what I'm saying?

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

And that might just be rest, it might just be play. But I want to, like, value my time and take it seriously.

[Sam Sanders]

Well, also, you know, to your point about making a point of seeing people and you love them from a distance, I think. You know, and we have our phones and, you know, technology. One of the good things about technology is it makes it easier for us to stay in touch with people across distance. You know, you can be texting, sending each other voice memos, but in terms of the embodied moments, you know, I feel like people are kind of, like, frozen in time. You know what I mean? Like your friend Waverly. You know, even if you're texting them regularly, you know, the Waverly in your mind is like, the last time you were sitting across the table from that person, you know, and then when you see them, you're like, oh, shit, you know, your hair's a different color, and, oh, there's someone sitting with you on the other side. You know, whatever. Like, all these things happen that don't really come to mind when we're communicating on the phone. There is, you know, I love a group text. I mean, this podcast is birthed out of a group text and all that kind of textual communication. But, yeah, taking the time to say, no, I'm actually gonna bridge this distance. I wanna do that. It's really important.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. And I find it to be much richer. You know, we talked about the show four seasons recently, which we, you know, gave a lot of. My sister actually told me on a trip, she's like, I don't agree with you guys. I love that show. That was so fun. But, you know, that show is built on this idea that every quarter these friends met up with each other and we joke that, you know, who wants to go on four trips a year? Who can even afford that? Which is. I still stand by. However, I love their cadence every quarter. Let's check in every season. How are we doing? Like, if you have a group of close friends that are your board, your people that are kind of your guides through this life, why not be physical with them and be shoulder to shoulder with them more? And I think, to your point, Saeed, I've become really good since the pandemic on just making text based relationships enough. And it was even yesterday I looked at Craig and I was like, oh, my God, I haven't talked to my mom on the phone in two weeks. And he's like, well, you talk to her every day on text. I was like, but that's not enough. I want more. And I'm now really tuned into that right now.

[Saeed Jones]

I love that. I love that. Me too. All right, Saeed, show and tell. What you got, what you learn.

[Sam Sanders]

So I got the opportunity to spend some time in London this month. I went to see Beyonce there with some friends. And we'll be talking about that in our second segment. But while we were there, it just so happened that my hotel was literally just a block from the National Gallery, one of London's, you know, premier museums. And I think, I don't know if all, but at least most of London's big museums are free. And so I went once, walked around, had a wonderful time, had lunch. And then I think later in the day or the next morning, I had some free time. I went again. And then when Teddy got into town, he went, there's like another corner of it. That's the portrait gallery. The same part, but it's just all portraits. He was like, let's go. And we were like, okay. You know, because it being free, it was like, it wasn't a big deal. And knowing that I could come back anytime, losing the pressure, I wasn't trying to see every, you know, like often if you're like, you're in Paris for like a few days, you go to the Louvre, you're trying to. Every single. It becomes. It's gotta be your whole afternoon. And no, it was really wonderful. And so I want to encourage people find A free museum. You know, I'm grateful that because of my id, I can go to the Harvard Art Museums. And I often do, you know, between meetings and just look at one painting or become a member of a museum near you and go there regularly. And I think, you know, like Zach was saying, the way summer we have a little more time generally can open up a sense of wandering and wondering. I think it's really healthy in terms of, like, resetting our attention. Sometimes I go to the Harvard Museum and I look at one huge painting. It's called Four Stops by my friend Nina. It's a huge painting, and it's got a lot of color. And I just sit in front of it, sit on the bench in front of it, and I try to focus on a different detail. I try to notice something every time different than last time, and then maybe I'll journal about it. When I was in the National Gallery, the floor that I was kind of walking around was a lot of religious art, a lot of pietas, a lot of Michelangelo and Carvaggio. I mean, it was just incredible. And so the second time I went and I was thinking of Imani Perry, her book about the color blue. I decided every time I noticed a painting with the color blue, that heavenly, you know, Mother Mary blew out the corner of my eye, I would go to it, and I just, like. It just led me. It was like my tour guide around the museum. You know, it was just. It's a different pace. It's a different way of seeing. I loved it.

[Saeed Jones]

And you were practicing mindfulness. This is like a mindfulness strategy. And this always settles the body, mind and soul. You know, focusing on the sensory.

[Sam Sanders]

Absolutely.

[Saeed Jones]

Focusing on things outside of your internal monologue. That's the same as deep breathing. It's the same as yoga. I love that. Finding the blue and walking towards it. It's a beautiful mindfulness.

[Sam Sanders]

It's just going for it and knowing that you can come back, you know, and so you can see something again. Go back to that thing, you know, maybe you leave and you read about a piece and, you know, I had no idea. And then you go back. It's just really exciting and deepening. And then, you know, later, you know, literally last week, when I was in Columbus, like I said, Columbus is a drag institution. I mean, I don't know a city with as diverse a drag scene. And so we went to drag shows. I swear, four nights in a row. And it was just, again, you know, I mean, you know, a drag show, we may not think of it as like the National Gallery. But if you think of gender, fashion, pop culture, music, art, it's all there. And so I kind of was treating it the same way. What is this performer going to do this time? How do they engage? Like the night when it's packed versus the night when it's just like a couple of tables and it's mostly friends. And so, yeah, there's something about find like a regular. You know, like people have their regular bar or their regular, like, lunch spot. Like find a regular art spot, I think would be like a fun summer activity.

[Zach Stafford]

I'm obsessed with this. And you also are embodying A thought I have around museums is that people treat them as these kind of like scarcity or precious spaces where you only go maybe once a year. Or you say, oh, I've been to the Met once, but you don't think about going a lot. Even though the Met is free. I think Sundays in New York, but with museums. A friend told me who grew up working in galleries, his family owned some galleries in Chicago. And he said to me, oh, I don't move slow through museums. I move fast. I look for what pulls me and then I go spend time with it. I let my body take me through the exhibitions. And so I do that. You know, I thought you had to move through museums at a slow pace and read every single thing. And it's like. No.

[Sam Sanders]

Like one to one.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, exactly. Run to the things that call you and then come back and see what calls you the next time and next time.

[Saeed Jones]

I love this museum. Mindfulness.

[Sam Sanders]

Museum mindfulness.

[Saeed Jones]

This is like, lighten up the yogi in me.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Saeed Jones]

Practicing mindfulness in the museum.

[Zach Stafford]

Yes, yes.

[Sam Sanders]

And it's also, you know, systemic museums should be free. I think museums should be free. And governments need to support the art so that museums can be free.

[Saeed Jones]

DC listeners. They're all free in dc. I love the Portrait gallery. It's my favorite. But all of our DC folks go to a free museum. Anywho.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. And if you're intimidated by that, galleries in your cities where they sell art are free. Walk around, they try to get, you.

[Saeed Jones]

Know, be really nice to you because they want you to buy shit. Yeah, they'll be real nice.

[Zach Stafford]

They also have wine a lot, beer a lot. It's all free. Do it.

[Sam Sanders]

Love it. Well, Sam, what about you?

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, I had a busy, busy June. So busy to the point where I had to end up canceling one trip that was gonna happen this last month. Cause I was just too spent. But maybe the most fun I had In June, outside of getting to hang with our listeners and our fans and Y' all in D.C. and Boston and going to Spain for a wedding, which was great. I got to go for the first time ever to the Aspen Ideas Festival. I was invited to moderate a panel and do some speaking and some other, and they really showed me a good time. The elevation was hard, but it was fun sometimes. But the panel that I moderated, it really, really inspired me. It was a panel all about the art and science of play. And when they picked me to do it, I was like, why me, girl? And they're like, trust. It's gonna be good. So I was able to talk with Dr. Stuart Brown. He's the head of the National Institute for Play. And then I also was able to speak with one of the engineers at the New York Times game section. Ooh. She's worked on Conn. She's worked on wordle.

[Sam Sanders]

She worked on spelling beat a lot.

[Saeed Jones]

I don't think so. She does strands a lot.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, okay. Spelling beat be whooping my ass.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. I had a bone to pick with her about the day that when connections was all just symbols. I'm still mad about that.

[Zach Stafford]

I don't remember this.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, it was wild. We also had C.J. hendry. She's this immersive artist in Brooklyn who builds, like, outdoor playgrounds for adults. And so the talk was all about play. But what inspired me the most was Dr. Stuart Brown's story of his research and how he got into it. He was doing graduate work studying psychiatry, and in 1966, there was a massacre at the University of Texas at Austin. Killed, like, 30 people.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, yeah, the sniper.

[Saeed Jones]

The guy atop of the tower, the sniper, you know, Saeed. And after this mass shooting, the governor forms a commission to investigate the causes behind the mass shooting. So he and a lot of other researchers come out there, study it, study the shooter, his family and everything. And the doctor found that part of this man, a big part of this man's propensity for violence was that he grew up in a household that deprived him of Play. And then Dr. Brown did more research on people who had been incarcerated on homicide charges. And he also found that folks who were more prone to violent crimes like homicide grew up with less opportunities for play.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow.

[Saeed Jones]

And so the moral of the entire story and the entire talk is that we shouldn't just see play as, like, a luxury or a leisure. It is a necessity. Play resets us. It builds resilience. It builds intelligence. It builds community. We're hardwired for it and so we should do it.

[Sam Sanders]

Well, can I ask you, I realize as you're saying, I mean, this is so interesting. I realized if someone asked me to define. How would you define play?

[Saeed Jones]

I'm glad you asked that. I wrote it down. Dr. Stuart Brown's definition of play is this quote. Play is a state of mind that one has when absorbed in an activity that provides enjoyment and a suspension of sense of time. And play is self motivated. So you want to do it again and again. So it can be the playground in the monkey bars, it can be playing music, it can be playing with your dog, it can be sex. But it needs to be a state of mind that absorbs you fully and takes away the sense of time.

[Sam Sanders]

Wow.

[Saeed Jones]

We need that and it's really helpful for us when we do it with other people because it builds community, it builds strategic problem solving and it makes us stronger and more resilient. So Heidi, the games engineer at the time, she thinks a lot about how do I make games that folks want to come back to and make games that can help people feel like they've had a small win to start their day. And she talked a lot about how when you play a New York Times game, you're building resilience, you're becoming a better problem solver and you're finding a way to come back to something and keep trying at it. Play is important. We need to do it. That was my big lesson.

[Sam Sanders]

I love that.

[Zach Stafford]

I love that so much. And this segues for me a really important conversation that we weren't able to cover due to the break, which is the decision in Tennessee around gender affirming care and just the full out assault we've seen over the past month around adolescents being given access to care that does save their lives. A big part of why we believe in the science that has been proven to be true for trans and gender non conforming kids is because we know from the ages of 4 to 8, 8, all of us around the world engage in what we call as gender play.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah.

[Zach Stafford]

Which is when we become aware of gender and we start testing things out. We start, you know, that's when you may put on your mom's shoes and be like, oh, I hate these or oh, I love them. That's when the little girl puts on the overalls and starts becoming a tomboy and plays softball and realizes, actually I want to play tennis now. Like, we have to create spaces, whether it's gender, financial, social, where people can learn and have freedom within that and test the boundaries of what they want to become. And we need that across everything. So I love that you bring this to us today.

[Saeed Jones]

And I wanna shout out not just Stuart Brown, who runs the National Play Institute, CJ Hendry is a big immersive artist and Heidi Irwin worked on New York Times games. But yeah, y' all play is real. And I want us to take this rhetoric of rest that we all love to incorporate as adults. I'm like, you need rest. You need rest. You need rest. You also need play.

[Sam Sanders]

I love that.

[Zach Stafford]

Amen.

[Saeed Jones]

Okay, okay. We're going to take a break and wrap ourselves in the flag. Or not.

[Sam Sanders]

Of course not.

[Saeed Jones]

I was playing.

[Zach Stafford]

Tbd. Playing. I was playing.

[Sam Sanders]

Playing.

[Zach Stafford]

Got it.

[Saeed Jones]

All right, y'. All, plan for break. We'll be back.

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[Zach Stafford]

All right, listeners, we're back and we are talking about the state of Americana. So, as you know, this week is July 4th, a holiday that. That Saeed forgot about. And I honestly forgot about too. I only remembered because I'm officiating a wedding on the 4th of July.

[Saeed Jones]

Y' all are funny. I remembered it cause it's a Friday this year. We get a Friday off for once.

[Zach Stafford]

That's.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, that's.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm remembering that the only gift, it's.

[Zach Stafford]

Maybe giving us the shoes that we have a Friday off of it. But anyway, America is on our mind for a multitude of reasons, but one for me personally is tied to Beyonce Knowles Carter herself. So, as you know, all three of us have now seen the Cowboy Carter show. I was able to see her in Paris the night that my Miley Cyrus perform, which was incredible. Saeed saw her right before me in London and Sam saw her in la. However, what I'm bringing forth to the group chat today is to see this show in Europe feels very different than in America right now. And that tells us a lot about America on the global stage right now as well. So in Paris, to save you all, a very long story. As you know, the show opens up with Beyonce singing the national anthem. You know, we as black gay men have loved when our divas sang the national anthem. Historically, look at Whitney Houston, who reimagined it in the most amazing ways. Like, I still listen to her sing that from the super bowl every, I don't know, month to this day. So when the song began playing, I was at the show with a bunch of black gay men and we all began singing and dancing to Beyonce's rendition of the national anthem. And let me tell y', all, these French people, you were dancing to it. Oh, we were like, it was like a. We were also drinking. So, you know, we were just like.

[Saeed Jones]

Ah, popping and locking to the national anthem.

[Sam Sanders]

Here's the thing, to be fair, people keep saying she opens. It doesn't open. She opens with Yaya. But it comes in like a few songs in. So you're. You're already kind of. You are kind of, like, in the mood when it comes, you're feeling it.

[Zach Stafford]

And you're also like, you know, it's.

[Sam Sanders]

Not like you take your seat and it's like, please.

[Saeed Jones]

Damn.

[Zach Stafford]

No, it is a few. It's a few moments in. But, you know, we grew up, like, when a diva sang the national anthem, you were like, oh, yeah, let's do it. Let's vibe. But this in Paris felt so different. And when I went to the bar to grab a drink, I ran into some vibe check folks there from New York, which was wonderful. But I turned and a white woman from France looked at me and said, are you from America? And I said, I am. And she goes, ugh. And I said, well, Beyonce's from America. And she goes, well, she is Beyonce. And, like, walked away.

[Saeed Jones]

Are you serious?

[Zach Stafford]

Yes. Yes.

[Saeed Jones]

Wow.

[Zach Stafford]

French people are so funny. Yeah, French people are so funny. So I've been thinking a lot about, you know, we've been talking a lot on the show for the past year about how Beyonce has used the American flag. Reclaimed it is making us reimagine or at least pay tribute to the ways in which we show up within black history. However, I'm starting to think, like, is that even worth it right now? Should we even be fighting this fight? Which is why I bring it to the group chat today. So, Saeed, you saw the show in London. They used to rule our country. What was it like singing in London?

[Sam Sanders]

You know, was. I thought it was very interesting one, because in terms of location, of course, the song connected to American independence. To hear it sung by a black woman in the United Kingdom, the country we declared independence from, was, you know, I thought, interesting and funny. It's also noteworthy. Cause like I said, it's not exactly how the show starts. As a part of another one of the medleys. And one her rendition that she does, it's not even the whole Star Spangled Banner, but the part that she does has nods to Jimi Hendrix's version of the Starred Spangled Banner, which was pretty radical at the time. And then she immediately goes into Freedom, which, you know, one on its own from Lemonade is a pretty renegade song. Very Speaking truth to power, but of course, is now very much associated with Kamala Harris campaign. So all that was going on for me. But also, I have to fully admit, I'm pretty sure that's when the Molly hit for me. And so I was like, it's a vibe. But I will say it was. Yeah, it was just. I don't know, I appreciated it in the context of what she was doing. I also understood the whole cowboy. I was gonna have plenty of opportunities to contemplate the flag. And so we can keep talking about that. There were no moments of people turning to me and being like, are you from America? Or anything like that. It was just like, oh, yeah, right on. You know?

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. That's the thing, Sam. When you saw it in la, you saw it after the election. We have talked about this a lot on the show. That a lot of things that we're witnessing, like the trip to the space that Gayle King went on and other things were all planned in a world in which people hoped Kamala Harris would be president. And I would say Callie Carter was also released. She hoped Kamala Harris president. So how was it experiencing it in la and how was it making you think about America this summer?

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think, like, there's two things I think for one, and this has been a reality for me for a few years with Beyonce. I respect the genius, I see the vision. But with all of these opuses she creates, I wish she would tell us more about it and what went into her thinking about it and what she wants it to mean to us. Like, I just wanted forever for her to have a lecture on Renaissance and talk about every musical reference. Cause she's a student music here. In the same way with Cowboy Carter in the Americana imagery, I would love to hear her give a lecture as a black woman doing things that seemingly no one has ever done before and talk about.

[Sam Sanders]

But I thought she was. That it was like too much of a lecture on her interpretation of history.

[Saeed Jones]

No, I'm not. Musically, I'm talking about words like, tell me what the references mean. Tell me what you wanted to symbolize. I think musically, she's always teaching a master class, and at times, Cowboy Carter almost feels too full of musical ideas for me. But I've been longing for Beyonce, who is the smartest pop star of our time, to just tell us what it means. And even in the lyrics around the songs that we're referencing here, like American Requiem from Cowboy Carter, like Freedom from Lemonade. Even lyrically, she almost goes there and doesn't. Like in American Requiem, she sings, can we stand for something? But she never tells us what the something is. You know, in Freedom, she says, freedom, Freedom, I can't move. Freedom cut me loose. What can't you move from? What's holding you back? You know, I find that Beyonce's use of Americana is gorgeous and obviously fully and clearly thought out. I just always want her to talk to me about it.

[Zach Stafford]

That's what I kept for. Well, I like what you're bringing up here because I would broaden it and ask this question to all of pop music at the moment. A term just recently emerged for me on the Internet. It's called trad pop summer. It's a new term to define the type of music rolling through the Billboard charts right now. Of course, it's a reference to trad wives, which has been a trend on TikTok of women participating in very conservative ideas of womanhood and domesticity, which has its own conversations around it. But trad pop is about how pop music itself is beginning to sound very Christian, very traditional, very conservative. So you see that kinda in Cowboy Carter, which I would say is way more radical. But Chapelron has released country like music. Sabrina Carpenter sounds very country esque. The number one song in the world right now is Alex Warren's Ordinary, which is a Christian rock song. So, Sam, you talk a lot about monocultures and you look to music a lot. What do you think this is telling us about America today? Cause it does feel like more than ever with Beyonce and all this other music that we are having a debate publicly about who has America.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, yeah, it's funny, I was seeing some graphics and some visuals around the country Billboard charts since Beyonce has released Cowboy Carter, it has been at or near the top of the charts for over a year for the country Billboard charts. And so if you look, the visual is like kind of wild. You see a lot of white guys in cowboy hats. And then smack dab in the middle of that is Beyonce wearing white with American flag imagery. And it makes me think of this larger point. It's like all of these artists are seeking to represent some kind of Americana in their music. But in the absence of monoculture, their versions of Americana mean different things. We have left the moment in time where when we were like high school age, didn't matter what your politics were. Fourth of July, you went to Old Navy, you got the flag T shirt, you're at the parade. We all were fucking doing it. There is no more monoculture around Americana and the American flag. And so Beyonce is just doing her version of Americana that's entirely different from what Morgan Whallon is doing. And part of me longs for a throwback to that patriotic monoculture, but part of me says maybe it's better this way, because I would much rather live in a universe where I watch Beyonce riff on ideas of Americana than just watch her sing the national anthem at a Football game. You know, the absence of monoculture and the breakup of it allows for more freedom and experimentation. And that's actually how I'm thinking about celebrating the fourth of July. I am not thinking about it in a universal, patriotic sense. I'm saying what works for me, what's best for me. What is Americana for me. What does it mean to be a patriot for me?

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, I mean, I want to push this down to you side because I think about your work a lot for a variety of reasons, but I think about your memoir and the work that you've created as a black queer writer, or just at said is Americana to me. You're traversing the American South. You're coming of age in America. You're contending with America weighing on your own body. How have you been thinking about America throughout your practice as a writer, but especially now as you're preparing, like, the people's project, like, you're creating a work that is kind of making us rethink America today.

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, you know, with Cowboy Carter, I mean, it's part of why, you know, when we had that episode about it, my thesis was that this was her the musical version of the great American novel. And I think you're right. That one. I mean, one reason I think we're seeing all these pop stars doing it who aren't always traditionally embracing country is they're following Beyonce's trend. She's also the trendsetter.

[Saeed Jones]

Right.

[Sam Sanders]

You know, so I'm sure that's informing some decisions from people like Chapel Roan and Sabrina Carpenter who closely follow her music and her decisions. But also, you know, it's not new for artists in all genres to want to center themselves. You want to center yourself in the cultural and artistic and dare sometimes political conversation. And so that's why the great, you know, that has that gravitas. And so, yeah, it's a bit. Because what is pop music, popular music, you know, so I don't think there's a coincidence. It's not just country. It's, you know, even if someone like you're saying isn't singing traditionally country music, they're gonna try to, you know, pull in some of those images. I'm thinking, for example, of Telephone, Beyonce and Lady Gaga a decade ago. It is not country. It is not what. But the music video, it is all Americana, honey. You know, even the great Western. The image of the car, you know, two women in a car, you know, like, let's get away. It's very, you know, drawing on these tropes because it allows you to say you have your finger on the pulse, and you were at the heart of what's going on, which is, you know, where any pop star wants to be. Now, I will say the thing about Americana, and this is why I'm pushing back, I guess, on monoculture. The thing about Americana that I think has always been tricky is, what are we talking about here? It allows someone to be on the pulse to say they are at the center, but you're like, the center of what? And so my thing is thinking of the era that many of the three of us went to college in, which is the War on Terror, the wake of the War on Terror, which was all Americana. I mean, Sam and I grew up in Texas during the Age of Freedom Fries. I think that kind of monoculture, it gave us the illusion that we all understood what we were saying when we were wearing our Old Navy T shirts and we were, you know, doing the. But I do think it was an illusion, and I, you know, I can hear what saying, you know, And Sam is acknowledging that in the divergence of culture now, people, I think, are more confident to share their different interpretations. You know, there's a moment. It's a visual on the screen, but there's a moment during the cowboy car performance where you see Beyonce draped in a huge US Flag. But the colors are. It's like the US Flag has been bleached and to the point that it's actually the pinks and blues of the trans flag. Right. So there's a way now that we're getting it, that I think that is better, you know, but the thing about the lecture is she's not a professor.

[Saeed Jones]

Mm. I don't need her to be a professor. I just feel like there's so much that would, like, edify her audiences even more if she talks about.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, well, I look forward to Charli XCS's, you know, lectures as well.

[Saeed Jones]

This ain't about her. She ain't from here. But I do think a lot about how, in all of these moments of deep patriotism, they are channeling blackness. You know, Zach, you reference that iconic Whitney Houston performance of the National Anthem at the super bowl in the early 90s. That was at the start of the Gulf, and she was brought in to soothe a nation that was worried at the beginning of a very intense war. I even. And I always think about this in the summertime. David Blight, a Yale historian, he's talked a lot about the history of the first Memorial Day. It was actually done by freed black slaves. They did it. And so Americans, our idea of patriotism has always been directly in by black people and blackness. There's some imagery in Blight's essay about that first day. It was called Commemoration Day. It was beautiful. It was a procession around a field led by 3,000 black school children carrying roses, singing the Union marching song, John Brown's body. Women followed them with baskets of flowers, wreaths and crosses. And then black men marched behind them with contingents of Union soldiers. And then a black children's choir sang we'll rally around the flag. It gives me chills every time I read it.

[Sam Sanders]

And I love that history like invokes black children. Because something else I wanted to share is that Grace Swisher, a 13 year old indentured black girl who's living in Baltimore in 1813, as well as another unnamed black person helped sew the Star Spangled Banner. Yeah, yeah. So there's something interesting about black women, black children being in integral into literally the imagery of Americana. You know, it's not something that we're reclaiming. It was always ours.

[Saeed Jones]

And that's why I'm always like. When I think about these conversations about is it okay to wear the flag? That is a conversation for white people. That is a conversation that is not for black people. Black people built this country. We taught it how to be patriotic. We can honor America however the fuck we want to.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah. And I think it's a great place to wrap because as we were getting glared at at the Beyonce concert in Paris, we can kept being like, we're black. It means something very different that we are singing this song with Beyonce right now. Also. Leave us alone. We just came here for.

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, that white. We could have a whole conversation on what that white French woman said to you at the bar. That's.

[Zach Stafford]

Oh, that's a whole other thing. Yeah, listen, that. That will be my lecture at a college. All right, well, we're gonna take a quick break. Don't go anywhere though. Cause we'll be right back with some recommendations.

[Sam Sanders]

Foreign.

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[Sam Sanders]

All right, we are back. And before we end the show, we each like to share something that's helping us keep our vibes. Right, Zach? Wow, a true throwback. Let's get started with you.

[Zach Stafford]

A true throwback. Well, we're talking about Americana a lot today, so I wanna bring up one of the great American queer films because it turned 20 this month. And that is the movie Brokeback Mountain, directed by Ang Lee, starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as young twinks on the outback. Not the outback in the Western front. I get. Where are they at? They're like in the rocky Wyoming, right?

[Sam Sanders]

Yes, Upper Midwest. And it's based on a short story as well.

[Zach Stafford]

I would say it's based on a short story, but this movie, I mean, it was when it came out, just like talk about a monoculture moment. People had a lot of big feelings about this very gay film coming out. Really big feelings. But I rewatched it in honor of the 20th anniversary, which I think a lot of movie theaters are replaying it. So if you want to see it in the movies, you can go back and watch it. But I have to say something and you know, mom, stop listening at this moment because it's going to get a little sexual watching it now. As an older gay man who knows what gay sex is and what gay bodies are, are how they engage in sex without access to showers, toothbrushes, anything to clean the lube, anything.

[Saeed Jones]

They ain't got no lube in Brokeback Mountain. And they're going, going, going.

[Zach Stafford]

It just like, even down to the not brushing your teeth. I was like, there are smells here that I would never want to smell, no matter how fine he is. So I've been just really meditating on that today about how, like, when we. I was making a ch joke, I was like, you know, they say that gay sex is dirty sex. I was like, you know what? That sex was probably real dirty.

[Sam Sanders]

Here's. Can I be. Can I tell you something? I've never seen the film really. Perhaps it's really telling of what Saeed's politics were like in what, 20 years or 2005. The fact that Angley, a straight person, the lead actors straight. I can't remember her name, but the woman who wrote the short story, straight. And you know, I don't like having my heart broken. I'm saddened that that was all. I have to admit. That's part of it as well. Yeah. I was like, no, I don't. I don't want to see it. I don't want to be a part of it.

[Zach Stafford]

It's pretty. And it's also. The New York times released their 100 Best Films of the century. It sits in the top 20. And to your point, that's weird because it's all straight people from a straight gaze, straight thought around queerness.

[Saeed Jones]

And you'll recall when that movie came out, I think we all were in undergrad. You might have still been in high school, Zach. But they marketed it really ambiguously.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, yeah, the posters were cute.

[Saeed Jones]

So if you didn't know, you didn't know. To the point that my mother thought it was just a cowboy movie. So my dumb bitch gay ass. I watched it with her in college to see what would happen. Just to see what the fuck would happen. And I kid you not, I'm just like, scared the whole time. This movie is, like over two hours long. The movie ends, I look over at her, prepared to get kicked out of the house. I look over at her, she's weeping, and she whispers to me, I wish they could have been together.

[Sam Sanders]

Aw.

[Howie Mandel]

Yeah.

[Zach Stafford]

That's incredible.

[Saeed Jones]

It was wild. It was wild.

[Zach Stafford]

I mean, that ending, it's. Wait, Julia. I watched it at 12. I thought it was a cowboy movie too.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes.

[Zach Stafford]

So the marketing work.

[Saeed Jones]

The marketing work and Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger were told not to use the word gay in interviews about the film.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, I just really. I think it's pretty fair to assume it's a beautiful film. I love a lot of Ang Lee's other work, but I do. I have real problems with, you know, and it's the same thing, you know, like, the way people want to embrace black culture and they just don't want black people to be a part of it. I just. It just. Yikes.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, Yeah, I agree.

[Sam Sanders]

I do. Like, I feel like we're seeing 20 year anniversaries, 10 year anniversaries of films, putting them back in theater. And I think that's really great for films that, I mean, obviously this was a huge deal at the time, but I think we're also seeing films that maybe weren't, you know, kind of getting their due in the moment. I do like the idea of us bringing them back, and it's good to.

[Saeed Jones]

See it now because lest we forget, that year Brokeback was up for Best Picture at the Oscars. Crash won.

[Zach Stafford]

Crash Beat It.

[Saeed Jones]

Travesty.

[Sam Sanders]

Hollywood is amazing. Anyway. I know we try not to, like, poo poo each other's. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Sam, what's your recommendation?

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, I want to not make a full throated endorsement because I still think they are operating in a negative and messy space. But I must say, this new Lizzo album where she is ratchet and raggedy and throwing it back, it's really good. It's really good.

[Zach Stafford]

Are you talking about how she can rap?

[Saeed Jones]

She can rap. She can rap. The album is called My Face Hurts From Smiling. The COVID has her flicking off all of us with two fingers. And the story behind this album is pretty crazy. You know, she had this lawsuit in which former dancers of hers accused of sexual harassment and no sense of boundary when they went to a second location at strip club after a show. The lawsuit was messy. It all was messy. She was trying to make a comeback and the first two singles she put out flopped. They were in that typical Lizzo lane of, like, Hallmark kids bop for older millennials who think they've never done anything wrong in a relationship. That's what she was making. But then she just said, you know what? I'm kind of the villain now. Let me lean into it. This is a villain twerking rap album, and I like it. Me and Wesley will play it while we're doing our morning walk to the coffee shop and we'll be dancing.

[Zach Stafford]

It's good. I have seen, I would say, you know, I check my Facebook every day because I'm a masochist. And a lot of, like, black queer men from my past life in Chicago have all been posting similar things. Like you saying that are like, I don't really like Lizzo, but this new thing slaps or this is really cute.

[Saeed Jones]

She finally gave up trying to pretend that she's better than the rest of us, you know? Cause so much of her empowerment shtick was like, I'm healed. I make smoothies. I don't blah, blah, blah. It's like, girl be ratchet, throw ass.

[Zach Stafford]

She's doing. She has nothing to do, quite literally.

[Saeed Jones]

So it's called my face hurts from smiling. I like it.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay.

[Zach Stafford]

All right. Love it. Well said. What do you got for us this week?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, this week's poem is a sonnet, which, of course, by nature is a love poem that has its own structure. The title is Tired of Love Poems by Megan Fernandez. But we never tire of them, do we? We wish to worship more than just each other. We put a God first. Sometimes a tree. Write a sonnet to a bird in the black of night. Night. Or offer a light to a stranger and not call it love, but it is. To pull out a chair is more than manners. What we tire of is that we never tire of it. How it guts us, how it fails, then reappears. Because what is the bird compared to you? The bird is replaced. Each morning you approach on a red bike and. And the poem takes shape. I entitle it Anything but Love. Anything but what it is that's Tired of Love Poems by Megan Fernandez. And it comes from a book with a great title. I do everything I'm Told.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, wow.

[Zach Stafford]

I love it.

[Saeed Jones]

I like that.

[Sam Sanders]

I like the idea of, like, pulling out a chair is more than matters, you know? It's beautiful.

[Zach Stafford]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. And I also have to say your poem from last week, which was a recording from D.C. my goodness, that poem has gotten so many legs on.

[Sam Sanders]

Listen, I read a Kim Adenisio poem on the show, but she's that girl. She's got. And she's a girl's girl. Meet her in the restroom. Let's share tea and gossip and love. I'm glad y' all love that poem as well. All right, well, listeners, what are you feeling or not feeling this week? What's your vibe? Check in with [e-mail].

[Zach Stafford]

That'S the show. We're back, ladies, and thank you for being back with us and tuning into this week's episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend.

[Saeed Jones]

As always, huge thank you to our producer Chantel Holder, our executive producers Camille Stanley from SiriusXM and Brandon Sharp from Adam Agenda. Also thanks to Marcus Holm for our theme music and sound design and shout out to Julia Leo for all of her help. And thank you to Aisha Ayoub who creates our social content.

[Sam Sanders]

We want to hear from you. Don't forget, you can email [e-mail] and keep in touch with us on Instagram on our page at VibeCheckPod. For direct access to our group chat. You can join our [e-mail] VibeCheck Also, Vibe Check listeners can now get a free three month trial on the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com VibeCheck Again, that's SiriusXM.com VibeCheck all right, stay tuned for another episode next Wednesday. Bye bye.

[Saeed Jones]

Go play outside. Go play Serious XM Podcasts.

[Howie Mandel]

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