← From the Front Porch
From the Front Porch
Episode 503 || Eat Like a Heroine with Lorilee Cracker and Jenny Williams
00:56:34
Loading summary
Transcript99 lines
- [00:02]
Annie Jones
Your message amplified.
- [00:03]
Laura Lee Kraker
Ready to share your message with the world? Start your podcast journey with Podbean.
- [00:08]
Annie Jones
Podbean Podbean Podbean Podbean the AI powered all in one podcast platform.
- [00:14]
Laura Lee Kraker
Thousands of businesses and enterprises trust Podbean to launch their podcasts.
- [00:18]
Annie Jones
Launch your podcast on podbean today.
- [00:20]
Laura Lee Kraker
My school uses Podbean. My church too.
- [00:23]
Jenny Williams
I love it.
- [00:24]
Annie Jones
I really do. Welcome to from the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business and life in the South. What a lovely lesson from the heroines. That good company, a few delicious trifles, and a dash of out of the orb ordinary is often all we need to remember that there is more to the story than our limited point of view. Laura Lee Kraker and Jenny Williams Eat Like a Heroine I'm Annie Jones, owner of the Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And today, in honor of the impending holiday season, we are breaking with our more traditional episode format to bring you an author interview with Laura Lee Kraker and Jenny Williams, the writer and illustrator behind Eat a Heroine, a beautiful book perfect for gift giving. This holiday season together, the three of us will be chatting about food in literature and what our childhood heroines can teach us in adulthood. Hi Jenny. Hi Lauralee.
- [01:43]
Jenny Williams
Hi, Annie. Thanks so much for having us.
- [01:46]
Laura Lee Kraker
Hi Annie.
- [01:47]
Annie Jones
I'm so glad y'all are here. This is such a delight. We don't do a ton of author interviews anymore. I do some on Patreon, but just because of scheduling and things like that, it can be tough. But I was so thrilled and honored to be asked to endorse Yalls book back when it released a few months ago. And so it's so wonderful to get to bring you on the show. I do want to talk a little bit about how the two of you began working together, because when we got onto record, it occurred to me, oh, Laura Lee is in Michigan, Jenny is in Oklahoma. So how did these two women start to collaborate and work together? So, Lauralee, I'm going to kick it to you first and maybe you can talk about how you and Jenny met and maybe how you began to work on this project together.
- [02:31]
Laura Lee Kraker
Sure, I would love to answer that question. So it was about seven years ago, I think now, right, Jenny? Something like that.
- [02:40]
Jenny Williams
Yes. I can't believe that. But yeah, because if I'm judging by the children's ages, 7 makes about sounds about right.
- [02:48]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah. Well, Jenny had read my 2015 memoir, Anne of Green Gables, My Daughter and Me, and so she reached out to me in my Instagram DMS and at that point, I didn't really understand Instagram. Dms. Sure. To be honest. And I. So I basically ignored it or I didn't see it, or I didn't even know it was there for. For quite a while. And somehow I. Maybe Jenny reached out again very bravely because, you know, if you don't hear from someone, you're like, oh, well, they don't want to. They don't want to talk to me.
- [03:27]
Jenny Williams
But I didn't make that assumption. I assumed the truth, which was, yeah, you didn't. I think, yeah, things get lost. I think I emailed you next. I did, like, kind of.
- [03:39]
Laura Lee Kraker
Okay.
- [03:39]
Jenny Williams
I didn't give up on you. We will be friends.
- [03:43]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yes, we will be. And we are. Oh, my goodness. So then next thing you know, we are hosting contests together. We. We hosted a. For several years. We did a thing called 12 days of Instagram, which was a photo prompt. And that was really fun. And we had people from, oh my goodness, all over Asia and. And Europe and North America just posting photos, you know, to prompt Santa Fe and Gables prompt. So after that we were really in sink. And. Yeah. So that basically that friendship then led to a book idea, which led to me being on a plane to Oklahoma City. And here we are five years later.
- [04:33]
Jenny Williams
So just like that. I know.
- [04:36]
Annie Jones
So, Jenny, you slid into her DMs to try to. Exactly.
- [04:41]
Jenny Williams
So this is our.
- [04:42]
Annie Jones
Meet cute Jenny. You and I are friends on Instagram and we connected because you are an illustrator, you own your own business, and we have maybe collaborated a little bit here or there. So can you tell listeners about that a bit before we continue talking about Eat like a Heroine?
- [04:58]
Jenny Williams
Oh, sure. Yes. So my business is called Carrot Top Paper Shop. It's an online shop for book lovers. And I live here in Oklahoma City and do it all from home. So, yeah, So I guess we bonded over. I think in my email to Laura Lee, I said, you know, like, I love heroines too. Look at my shop. Like, we're. We're destined to be friends and we share the same love of Anne.
- [05:23]
Annie Jones
So it sounds like once y'all connected on your mutual love and appreciation for some of the classic heroines, including perhaps especially Anne Shirley, then this idea for Eat Like a Heroine kind of came into being. And so, Lauralee, when you got on the plane and you went to Oklahoma, what were you thinking was going to become of this? So you had written already, you had the 2015 memoir, and so what did you think could happen when the two of you began working creatively Together.
- [05:55]
Laura Lee Kraker
Well, the way it came about was actually I was reading a newspaper article about a book called the Jane Austen Diet, which is a book that we use for Eat like a heroin. But one of the subheads of the article was Eat Like a Heroine. And I knew that Jenny loved food and loved talking about food, and I also love food, and I love writing about food. So it just came to me almost. I won't say fully baked, but I would say it really came to me in a flash that Jenny and I should write this book together about food, food, and literary heroines and what can they teach us? So I went to Oklahoma City with plans to kind of hammer out what this could look like. And. And really those initial sessions that we had of, you know, our ideas for chapters and things like that, they ended up pretty much all being in the book with some variations.
- [07:01]
Annie Jones
Yeah, I think listeners might be curious because these listeners, obviously, of our show, we are all avid readers, but many of us are also aspiring writers. And so I think there's a lot of curiosity behind the publishing process and the writing process. I'm always intrigued when there are two authors, authors, and how two people come together creatively. You know, sometimes you hear about these writers who never meet. Like, they just connect via Google Docs or something like that. And so I'm curious a little bit about the writing process itself. Maybe Jenny, you can talk about that a little bit, and then maybe Laurale, you can share a little bit about the publishing process.
- [07:39]
Jenny Williams
Yeah. So, Annie, I had all the same questions, and so I, I. By this time in our friendship, I felt like I had, you know, obviously built a trust with Laura Lee, and especially she'd kind of already become a writing mentor in a lot of ways. And I had told her that I had dreams of becoming an author one day. And so when she came to me with this idea, I was like, okay, I mean, yes, I am in, but, like, I have lots of questions, and one of them was, how do you write a book with another person? So Laura Lee has written. Was this book number 16 for you? Laura Lee, like a heroine? Was.
- [08:14]
Annie Jones
Wow.
- [08:14]
Jenny Williams
So, yes, tons of experience. I'm just so grateful. I feel like I could not have had a better first author experience just because. Yeah, I mean, like, all my stupid questions were directed at Laura Lee. But so, yes, writing a book together. She had done it several times with Lynn Spears, as to name one, Britney Spears's mom. So, yeah, we joked about True.
- [08:40]
Laura Lee Kraker
Weird, but true.
- [08:42]
Annie Jones
What a fun fact to throw out at parties. I know.
- [08:46]
Laura Lee Kraker
Oh, people are Electrified by that, I'm telling you.
- [08:50]
Jenny Williams
And while we're talking about heroines, anyway, so basically the very technical aspect is, yes, it is a Google Doc. But I think meeting in person and writing out, like brainstorming together and then coming up with that outline in person did wonders because we felt like we had a pretty good blueprint. And then writing the proposal together, Annie, you know, that's a. I almost feel like once the proposal is written, the hard part is done because you have such a blueprint that's, you know, it's ready to go and then you just kind of fill in the blanks once you get the sign the contract. So I felt like the writing process was. We kind of. It was a little bit trial and error at first to see, like, what our groove was, but once we found it, I feel like it just, it was honestly very seamless. I mean, we would just reconnect, you know, on the phone and say, this is what I'm passionate about. This is what I really want to write about. What are you thinking? And then we kind of just like filled in the gaps. One person might start, the other might finish. And yeah, I would say it was pretty seamless. How about you, Laura Lee?
- [09:57]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like once we got into that groove and we figured out sort of what our strengths were and, and how to collaborate and, you know, so I would get a sense of, oh, I think Jenny should write this. Jenny's more passionate about, say, collagen broth or, or, you know, and it's, it's so funny because we're very different in some ways. We're very much the same and in other ways. But, you know, I'm a refrigerated pie crust person. Jenny is a homemade pie crust person. And you'll see from some of the recipes in the book that my recipes. A monkey could make them. If monke. If monkeys had crock pots, then they could make these recipes. And Jenny's are more, by and large, more chef y and elaborate and homemade per se. So anyway, we just knew each other so well by this point that we really just bounced off each other and, you know, kind of establish like, what, what Jenny would be best at writing and what I would be best at writing. And it just flowed from there.
- [11:25]
Annie Jones
Yeah, well, it sounds like this wasn't, you know, this wasn't some kind of partnership that was brought together by a big publisher corporation or something like that. Like this was flowed out from your, from your natural friendship and camaraderie. And then I do think, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me that, like meeting together, brainstorming, working on a proposal, getting that outline down that probably was. I mean, I'm sure there were harder parts throughout, but getting that down does feel like you've really conquered a milestone. And so because you were already friends and had a relationship, then probably the ease of the partnership could develop from there because you'd already met and talked about some of these harder parts in person. So once you had written this proposal or you had this idea for this book, again, I do think there's so much. We were talking off air, there's so much mystery around publishing and it feels like such a, such a nebulous, how does this happen? Kind of thing. And sometimes I think demystifying it for people is so helpful. So where did the process come for you post proposal, Laura Lee? What kind of happened next?
- [12:35]
Laura Lee Kraker
So almost immediately after we finished our proposal, we got an agent. And that's not always easy to find an agent either. And so he started shopping it and he was very enthusiastic about it. And, you know, I had written all these other books before and I had worked with, you know, traditional publishers like, like Waterbrook and Baker and Thomas Nelson and Hachette. And so I just thought, well, and this book is not a necessarily a Christian book either. I mean, it's, it's just for everybody, really. And so most of my contacts were in the Christian market. And so I think, yeah, we had a really hard time selling it. And it got to the point, it was about a year and a half process. It really was a lot a marathon, and we'd get close and then. No. And, you know, and I know this, that publishers are always looking for a reason to turn you down. And I mean, that's just the, the, the naked truth of it. And so it was very discouraging at times, but yet we really believed in this concept so much. So we, we actually started a podcast, Eat Like a Heroine. We have about 10 episodes out because we were so passionate about this material and this, this concept that we thought, well, even if we don't get a book out there, we can put this out on a podcast. So we're going to continue the podcast. But we ended up, at one point there was a publisher that was very interested in it as a cookbook. And so, yeah, so we kind of quickly. This was over a Thanksgiving break, I remember. Right. Which was not a, which is not a great idea at all. And we practically had to write a whole new. Yeah, we wrote a Whole new proposal for it as a cookbook. And. And then we ended up turning that publisher down because for several reasons, but the biggest one I think was we just envisioned this as a full length nonfiction book. You know, we were open to a cookbook down the road, but. And there are 12 recipes in the book. But we ended up going with a small woman owned publisher called Endgame Press. And I think they, they did a really beautiful job with Jenny's illustrations and the writing and the format. So it was a whopper of a process. I remember back in 2002, I got a three book deal from off an email that I wrote and it was like low hanging fruit, you know. And those days are gone.
- [15:52]
Annie Jones
Yeah, well, I mean, I think just when I talk to. Obviously as a bookseller, we work a lot with local, independently, self published authors and everybody, right, is constantly trying to figure out, well, like how do you break in? And it is so. It's so challenging because not only is it obviously an industry where it very much is about personal connections or who you know, but also publishing has become a lot about platform. And so nobody wants to talk about that. But I mean, I know that part of the reason I was able to get a book deal, I don't think it would have happened for me 15 years ago. I think part of the reason it happened now is because of the podcast. It's because of the bookshelf. And so if you don't have those things, even if you're an amazingly talented storyteller or writer, I think it's incredibly difficult to break into the industry. And it's so interesting to me because I think it's a beautiful book and an easy sell in a bookstore. And I would think this is what's so interesting about the publishing process. I would think it'd be an easy sell to a publisher because at least at the bookshelf, books about books are extremely popular. And books with the nostalgia factor, which we'll talk about in a second, and books about classic literature, those sell very well for us. But I've had conversations with publishers or even with my own agent when I was talking about essays I wanted to include. And I mean, I remember my agent was like, well, books about books don't always sell. And I was thinking, oh, books about books always sell. Like at least my anecdotal personal evidence. And so it's so interesting, like what publishers see and the data they get versus somebody like me who's a bookseller. My audience is primarily avid readers because they love independent bookstores. They love indie bookstores and so they love books about books. And when I saw Yalls book and I immediately thought, oh, like, I loved a book several years ago called Voracious, which was this book about kid lit, and it included recipes. And I loved that book. I devoured it, pun intended, like, over Christmas break. I thought it was so charming. And this book, to me, because of the illustrations too, is such a beautiful and easy gift. And so it's fascinating what a publisher might know or might interpret versus what like a lay reader or a bookseller might think. Think so, Jenny, I think you and I are maybe a little bit close in age. And one of the things that was appealing to me about Eat Like a Heroine is I think millennials and other generations too, but I think millennials love a nostalgia trip. I think we've seen like, American Girl just came out with like, grown up Halloween costumes.
- [18:39]
Jenny Williams
Oh, I haven't seen that. I'm on their email list, but I haven't seen that.
- [18:44]
Annie Jones
Yes, they. You could be. I think you'd make a great Kirsten. Like, I feel like that's the vibe. Like, oh, my goodness, we could talk.
- [18:51]
Jenny Williams
About this for hours.
- [18:53]
Annie Jones
Yeah. So I feel like when I looked at Eat Like a Heroine, and maybe it was my experience, Jenny, with your illustrations already and how much you love classic literature and the women and the girls of classic lit, it just took me right back to childhood and to the characters I loved as a kid. And so I wondered, Jenny, for you, as you wrote and illustrated, what did you kind of notice about these characters that we loved as kids that now you were perhaps re. Encountering as an adult while you worked on this book?
- [19:25]
Jenny Williams
I love that question so much. It's such a great question because it's something I've thought a lot about in my business, which I started nine years, almost nine years ago now for my oldest daughter, when I found out I was having a girl, that was like my. The thing I was most excited about is sharing my love of reading and specifically these heroines that totally shaped the way I saw the world and the way I viewed myself. And actually American Girl probably had a lot to do with that too. While we're talking about. Yes, yes.
- [19:52]
Annie Jones
Things.
- [19:53]
Jenny Williams
Things from the 90s. But yeah, I just, I knew that it was more than that. It's not that I just, like, have fond memories of reading Anne of Green Gables as a child. It's that. And I think that's what, like, the women that were buying from my shop, they could see that too, that it's not just this pleasant feeling that you get, like, oh, I remember all these things. It's kind of like, like if when, like we see like a CD that we loved in high school, it's not that, like, CDs are so nostalgic and like, it's like everything that brings up, like, you know, driving in your car with your friends, like, there's, there's something deeper. Like, we don't. I don't do that anymore. I don't drive in the car with my friends with the music blaring. So I feel like this book really helped us get at, like, what is it about these, these novels that we loved as children that maybe we've forgotten? Or when we reread them, we think, oh, that's, that's why I loved this. And here's why I love it even more. Like, they offer so much. Like, I think that's part of the definition of a classic, is that they're timeless. But even, like in your own life, like, you can read them at a different phase and you remember this person that you used to be 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and you can see even, like, how your perspectives changed. Like, oh, I hated Josie Pie when I was 13. You know, like, I had, I was so angry. I couldn't understand the grudge she had against Gilbert. Like, why is it so hard? And then now as an adult, you're like, it's. I don't know, it just makes you more compassionate. Like other, like your, your own views change, other people's views change. Like, like, it depends on where you're standing a lot of things. So anyway, yeah, I just, I'm all about, like, I love, like the cute with depth behind it. I feel like that's. I say that about my brand. Like, yeah, it's not just nostalgia. There's just so much to be peeled away and so much room for discussion.
- [21:41]
Annie Jones
I mean, I think for a lot of us, it's rooted in identity. I mean, I think over. I'm pretty sure during the pandemic, Jordan, my husband, and I read from the Mixed up files of Mrs. Basile E. Frankweiler together. And I had read that as a kid. I don't think, think Jordan had, if I'm not mistaken. And so we were reading it out loud together and Jordan was like, oh, you are such a Claudia. And I was like, am I such a Claudia? And it was realizing, oh, because in that book she has a. I believe she has a younger brother. She's fiercely independent. And you all of a sudden realize, oh, I did read that as a kid, and I probably did make that a really large part of. Of my identity. And then as an adult, you know, Little Women is a great example. Like, I always identified with Jo, and I always thought it was because Jo was ambitious and a writer and a tomboy. But then I realized recently when I reread it, I was like, oh, Jo also doesn't want to grow up. She doesn't like things to change. She likes everybody to stay the same. And I am very much that way. And so you start to unpack a lot of different things about these heroines that shaped who you were as a kid and maybe also shaped who you are as a grownup, which maybe brings me to another question that is a little bit about nostalgia or identity. But just last night I was with the women in my book club and we were talking about how serious adulthood is. And we're constantly having to make serious, hard decisions or we're having serious conversations or we're focusing on an upcoming election or whatever. And we were talking about the importance of play. And I've seen this in the New York Times. I write about it a little bit in my own book, but I have some friends in my life who are so good at being playful and who are good about maybe engaging with the less than serious. And there is so much about eat, like a heroine that is playful. One of the chapters, I think it's one of the very first chapters in the book is about picnics. And you certainly. I was like, can I take, let me see, can I take a picnic this weekend? Like, could I, like, pack one up? And so, Laura Lee, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the playfulness of the book. I think so often we can think, oh, play isn't important. Play isn't something to be taken seriously. But I think a lot of these heroines have a lot to show us about retaining our playfulness us well into adulthood, and how that could actually help save us a little bit.
- [24:16]
Laura Lee Kraker
For sure. For sure. And you talked about the picnicking chapter. And that's exactly what I think of when I think about playfulness in the book is. I mean, what could be more sort of idyllic childhood memories other than a picnic? You know, it really evokes that. And you're. You're bringing food out to a. You're eating on the ground, you know, on the grass or on the beach or something, and you're not at your normal everyday table. And it's just a change of scenery and it is a Very playful process. And I think we just really leaned into humor in this book. We. We love to laugh. We love to just. I mean, we. That's one of the reasons we love Lucy Maud Montgomery so much, is because she's hilarious.
- [25:11]
Annie Jones
Us.
- [25:12]
Laura Lee Kraker
Right. Jane Austin was also very witty. Yes. Not all the heroines are witty like that, but those two especially are. Are just hilarious. And. And I think even just like our chapter Obsessed like a Heroine was about weird, you know, weird food trends. Right. And we probably each have our favorites. But, I mean, I. I cannot get over for the rest of my life the fact that the fanciest thing you could have at a. At one of Jane Austen's balls, like, at a Regency ball, was a marzipan hedgehog. Right. Was like, lying in a quagmire of, like, literally deer juice. I mean, like, I mean, so appealing.
- [26:08]
Annie Jones
Delic.
- [26:11]
Laura Lee Kraker
Oh, my goodness. And you know that these. I just imagine these women in their Regency gowns, you know, just approaching the. The table to gaze at the marzipan hedgehog and all its horrifying glory. And so we just had so much fun with just. There were so many things to laugh at. And. And I think when we can laugh along with our favorite book heroines, we can laugh more easily at ourselves.
- [26:45]
Annie Jones
That's beautiful. And I think, too, part of the reason the book is playful and, to me, brought out a spirit of play is probably because there was a world in which, and a way in which this was a playful project for both of you. Getting to write alongside a friend, getting to dive into these characters you both loved as children and now love as adults. Like, I think there's something really. I think that spirit of play that perhaps, maybe even you unwittingly embodied comes across in the book. Like, there's definitely a humorous, playful spirit to the book that I loved as I was reading it. I would love to know, as a bookseller, we're always asking, like, who is this book for? Like, who can I put this in the hands of who is this book for? So when you were going through the proposal process, when you were brainstorming together, who did you think, think eat like a heroine is for? Who was the target audience? What did you want them to find in the pages of your book? Maybe, Jenny, you can start, and then Lauralee will ask you the same question.
- [27:48]
Jenny Williams
Yeah, I would say broadly, it was anyone who is familiar with these heroines and loves them. So even if it's not that they read all the books as a child, but maybe they've read a few of them now. Or maybe they're just familiar with all the movie adaptations. They're familiar with the story. But we really wanted. Again, like, we're talking about this theme of playfulness. Like, we wanted someone who felt tired or weary to be able to pick it up and just feel. Not like, we. We say this, too. Like, it's not a. It's not a diet book in any way. There's no. There are no rules. It's not a checklist of, like, here, if you want to eat like a heroin, here's how to do it. It's. It leaves so much room for interpretation. And the resounding theme is, you're probably doing more than you think you are. Like, you're probably. You're probably eating like a heroin in a lot of ways that you don't think of as heroic or, like, as actually being beneficial to your friends in your community. So we mentioned this at our.
- [28:46]
Laura Lee Kraker
The.
- [28:46]
Jenny Williams
The Michigan book launch, but one of our favorite reviews, our early reviews on Amazon, someone said that it made them. It was a young mom, and she said, this book made me feel more like myself than I have. Have in several months. And that really touched us both because, like, that's what it is. It's not about, like, being a heroine is not about comparing or saying, like, that person hosts dinner parties. I need to host more dinner parties. It's looking at saying, like, well, you know, I'm always intimidated by dinner parties, but you know what I do really well? Like, feeding children, making children feel seen. You know, it's like, it's really about. It's. Yes. It's affirming, like, what you're good at, leaning more into that. That having this mindset of, you're not the victim, look at, you know, acknowledge, recognize all the things you can't do, and then put on your heroin cap and say, but what can I do? And now I'm gonna do it with gusto. And I feel like that. Like, I get that vibe from you and, like, your bookstore a lot. Like, there's just so much. And, like, I just love your tone on social media. I feel like that was one of the reasons why you instantly came to mind as an endorser for this project. So we thought, like, we both were, like, Annie's gonna get this. Like, she knows about, like, what food can do in community and all. Like, the little ways that we can love each other are not insurmountable.
- [30:04]
Annie Jones
Well, and that's one of the things. I'm glad you mentioned this. It's one of the things I liked about your book was I love. We talked off air, Laura Lee and I did, about our mutual love and admiration for Shawna Nyquist. I just finished Ina Garten's memoir. I love food. I love reading about food. I cook almost exclusively Blue Apron meals, and that is my season of life. And so sometimes I can walk away from books about food or cooking and think, okay, but, like, now I've got to bake something, or now. And the reality is my life currently is not conducive to that. And so, like, there's a reason I make Blue Apron meals, and it's because I'm tired at the end of the day and I cannot measure. Can't do it. Can't do it. And so one of the things I liked about y'all book was I finished reading it and didn't feel like, oh, I gotta go put on my chef hat. Like, it really did make me feel like I'm already doing some of this stuff.
- [30:54]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah.
- [30:54]
Annie Jones
Like, I'm already. I'm already doing some of this stuff. And I might not be the world's best cook, but I'm a great eater, and I love eating food, and I love going to restaurants. And again, the concept of the picnic or a party or something like that. So I think that's a great point that you're making that it. And perhaps that's the reason that the proposal surrounding a cookbook maybe didn't take off. I think this functions so much better as inspiration, but also very much. I love that review. Like, this is what I'm already doing. This is who I already am, and these are ways to embody that. Laura Lee, when you were writing, who were you envisioning kind of reading this book and embracing this book?
- [31:38]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah. So I think the people that follow Jenny and I on Instagram, they. They love books. They just love, love, love books. And whenever we get them started on a conversation, like, what's your favorite food mentioned in Little House on the Prairie? Let's say. And then everyone has an answer, you know, and it's. Everyone's like, oh, I remember that time Ma, you know, made the. I don't know, the sugar cakes or whatever for Christmas or that. The peppermint sticks and the Christmas stocking and just all these vivid memories, I think, come out. And so if I could say it in two words, this book is for bookish foodies.
- [32:25]
Annie Jones
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Laura Lee Kraker
So people who are bookish and people who love food. I mean, like, I've already established I'm not a chef, but I do like to cook, and I do like to read about food, and I'm interested in food. And so, you know, and I'll read a restaurant review, and I'll. I'll read. I'm actually addicted to these sort of, like, online, like, grocery stories, you know, like 10 new fall items at Trader Joe's, you know, and I'm like, click, click. So I think people who behave similarly. Right. Who will reread Adam Green Gables every couple of years, who. Who love to watch, let's say. Oh, what's that? Oh, it's somebody feed Phil on Netflix. Right. And they also love to see the new Jane Austen adaptation.
- [33:22]
Annie Jones
Yeah, I think. And I think there's a lot of overlap there. Like, I like. You're describing me like, I love those things. Like. Yeah, right. I love how Phil makes me feel at the end of an episode.
- [33:34]
Laura Lee Kraker
Phil is a hero, Lisa. I'm just gonna nominate him as our heroine.
- [33:39]
Annie Jones
Yeah. And so I. Yeah. And I love maybe terming it like a bookish foodie. You know, I think I've always thought, oh, to be a foodie, you have to love like, a Michelin star restaurant, or you have to love. And it's like, no, you can just, like a good meal or, you know, love watching your mom cook or whatever. Like, you can love food memories. Like, I love food memories. And so I like. I like maybe taking some of the connotation out of foodie that maybe I personally associated as food snob. And there's no snobbishness in eat like a heroine. There's no. Heroines aren't snobby. And so I think that they're accessible, and you've made them accessible. I want to ask each of you, and I do wonder, is this like asking your favorite child, but what chapter of the book. Book is your favorite?
- [34:32]
Jenny Williams
That is a lot like asking that, who's your favorite child? I'll let Laura Lee start. Do you have an answer?
- [34:38]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah. Yeah, I do. I have a hard time with this because honestly, after. After we wrote every chapter, I'm like, this is my favorite. And of course, I can't have 11 favorites. Right. I think when it all comes down to it, I think my favorite chapter is cozy like a heroine. I love the quote that we start out with. It's from Maya Angelou's book I Know why the Caged Bird Sings. And she says the homey sounds and scents cushioned me. And that, to me, encapsulates, like, how food, you know, how like tea, you know, like, you're boiling water for tea, you're steeping tea, you're making soup, you're, you know, the scents even can be cozy, like you're making cookies. And the, and the whole, you know, the cinnamony scent, the sugary scent fills the house and it fills you with a sense of well being. So food is not just like, oh, I don't know, an accessory, but it really is a conduit. It can be a conduit to feeling cushioned, as Maya Angelou says, from the harder things in life. And we all need to have that cushioning in our lives. And, and that's why I love this season. October is my favorite month, and especially in Michigan. It's just very crisp and, you know, apples and, and fall foliage and is, am I saying that right? Foliage, foliage, foliage.
- [36:17]
Annie Jones
I don't know. I don't, I don't see a lot of fall foliage where I live. But. Yeah, but, but I think that's part of the reason I wanted to have you guys on at this time of year was because I think this episode will run sometime in November. But I wanted it October, November, December. It's like this last quarter of the year, and then for me, even going into January, February. I know some people hate those months, but February is my birth month and so I love February. And to me, it's a very cozy time of year after coming off a really hectic time of year because of owning the store and quarter four. So October through February is the cozy season. And your book certainly made me feel cozy and comforted and I love that quote, cushioned when there is still. These are wonderful months of the year. They're some of my favorite times of the year. But chaos still is afoot. There are natural disasters, there is political upheaval, there's all kinds of things going on, but you can still light a candle, you can still preheat your oven, like every year. I mean, I'm not a huge baker, but every October, November, I bake pumpkin bread. And I don't even, sometimes I give it away, sometimes I don't even eat it because I'm not even a huge pumpkin fan. But I like how my house smells when I cook it, when I bake it. And I like how it makes me feel. I like the act of doing it. And so I think there's something about your book in particular that lends itself to the cozy seasons and to the cozy, cozy months. Ginny, do you have a favorite chapter.
- [37:53]
Jenny Williams
In the book or being forced, which I guess I am. I guess I would say probably comfort like a heroine. The More we wrote this book and, yeah, I feel like food is really one of my love languages. I am not as much as I want to be the person that hosts beautiful dinner parties with beautiful place settings and all of that. That might be like a, I don't know, once every 10 years thing for me, but I. I really love, like, sending bringing meals to families who have, like, just had a baby or just gone through surgery. And so our comfort like a heroine chapter is all about, like, Pollyanna bringing cow's foot jelly to her sickly friend. And I just think, like, there's nothing like, well, yeah, you share pumpkin bread. Like, there's just something about bringing a meal to someone that just. Just speaks, like. Well, just speaks volume. It just says something. You know, it's the kind of love that you can see we quote in our book. It. There's, like, so much more meaning behind it. Like, you know, that that person just took time out of their day to make that or find it for you and bring it to your house. And I think we underestimate. I guess it was like, after we've had children, our church does a meal train. So when we've had children, like, when people bring us meals, like, there's just, like, it seems like such a small thing to them if they're not in that phase of life. But you just underestimate, like, the support, like, the moral support, and just like this, like, buffeting. That is that not. That's not the right word. What's the word? The bolstering, like, power of like, of showing up on someone's doorstep and saying, here you go. Like, you don't have to worry about this. And it always tastes better when someone else brings it to you. It does.
- [39:36]
Annie Jones
It does.
- [39:36]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yes.
- [39:37]
Annie Jones
It absolutely tastes better. People should never worry about that. It tastes better when trivial tastes because.
- [39:41]
Jenny Williams
There'S so much more in it, you know, like, it's just like you feel seen and loved. So that's kind of what the comfort chapter is about.
- [39:47]
Annie Jones
I love that because I've always loved Pollyanna. I like. I think she gets a. I think she gets a bad rap just because it can. She can feel naive, but I love her.
- [39:57]
Laura Lee Kraker
We agree.
- [39:57]
Annie Jones
You know, I also think it's important to note, like, I have a very distinct memory of a dear friend. During the pandemic, it was like, Thanksgiving weekend, and Jordan went ahead and went to his family's, but I had to work. And it was back when we were masking and we were being very careful about who we were exposing. And so I didn't want to go be exposed and then come back and potentially expose my staff or my team. So I stayed home. And I'm highly introverted, so staying home on Thanksgiving was actually not as terrible as it sounds. But I have a dear friend who made me a homemade cinnamon roll, and she brought me a homemade cinnamon roll on that morning and just, like, left it on my front porch. And I've never forgotten it, like, just one thing. And so I like that it doesn't even have to be, like, a whole meal. It can just be something that makes us feel like, oh, this is somebody thought of me. And I love that idea of comforting someone. Okay, is there a heroine? And this might be, again, like, asking your favorite favorite child or your favorite chapter, but I'm not asking for your favorite. I'm just asking which heroine that you encountered in researching and writing this book. Which heroine did you most identify with over the course of writing? Laura Lee, we'll start with you.
- [41:13]
Laura Lee Kraker
Well, I thought a lot about this. It's an excellent question. And I identify a lot with Jo March because she wanted to be a writer and writing was so important to her. But I would say in the end, I would have to pick Anne of Green Gable just because I just think I resonate so much with her. She just sort of goes all in with her whole heart, and then she makes mistakes, you know, like nearly poisoning her beloved Sunday school teacher, Mrs. Allen, when she, you know, put anodyne liniment in the cake instead of vanilla. Right. And she's always making these just mistakes. Right? And. But then, you know, after crying about it and feeling her feelings, then she. She kind of is. She has self compassion, and she says, okay, tomorrow's a new day with no mistakes in it yet. And so I feel like I've learned the most from Ann. And I call her my literary life guru and. Or my literary life coach. And I'm always thinking of an answer.
- [42:30]
Annie Jones
She has a lot to say.
- [42:32]
Laura Lee Kraker
Just yesterday. Oh, she has a lot to say. Just yesterday. I was thinking, I was thinking about some potentially stressful things that might be coming up in my life. And then I thought, don't borrow trouble. Don't meet trouble halfway down the road.
- [42:51]
Annie Jones
Anne's in your head. She's a voice in your head.
- [42:54]
Laura Lee Kraker
She's in my head. She lives there like. Or she lives on my shoulder like. Like my better angel. And so I was like, you're right, Ann. I won't. So I just stopped that train of thought. Changed the channel in my head. And so Ann helps me out every time.
- [43:12]
Annie Jones
I think that's such a lovely anecdote, too, because, again, these heroines have so much more depth than we first realized. Like, maybe we think Pollyanna is naive and almost, like, too pure of heart. And maybe we think, oh, Anne is just imaginative and. And, you know, but they're more than that. Like, I think Anne is incredibly resilient. Like, her ability. You know, if you're a. If you're a perfectionist, Anne is a great saint for you. Because Anne consistently makes mistakes, and she's okay with it. Like, she apologizes about it. She figures it out. You know, she's stubborn at first, but, like, eventually she recovers and moves on, and she doesn't dwell on those mistakes that she makes. And I think that's an admirable lesson that we don't often attribute to Anne. I think we put our heroines in boxes, much like we put ourselves, perhaps, in boxes. And so what a powerful reminder that Anne is even more than her beautiful imagination, I think. Jenny, what about you? What is a heroine or who is a heroine that you came across in writing this book that you were like, oh, she's me.
- [44:17]
Jenny Williams
Well, if I had answered first, I probably would have said pretty much the exact same thing as Laura Lee. Cause it always comes back to Anne. But I will say, say that a lot of, like, the unsung heroines, shall we say, from a lot of these favorite books, even Marilla, I feel like we learned some lessons from her as well. Just how, like, she opened herself up to being changed by Anne, I think she doesn't get a lot of credit for that. I think that really makes her a heroine. But as far as, like, food things like Beth March and then the March sisters. Helpful, I guess. Housekeeper. She's also a cook. But Hannah, these. These women that are kind of in the background and happy to be there, but they're the ones that are making you turnovers and putting them into your pockets as you walk to work on a chilly morning. That was Hannah giving Meg and Joe their turnovers. That kept their hands warm as they walked to work. And then Beth, who's always just trying to make the home beautiful. Yeah, I think we can easily dismiss that and look for, like, okay, but where's the heroic action? You know, like, where. Where are the big things that we can point to and say, like, that's courage. And I just think, yeah, I. I learned a lot personally from a lot of those. The heroines that are in the Backgrounds that are really doing a lot more than we think.
- [45:40]
Annie Jones
Okay, so just my final question. As we head into the holiday season, we're heading into Thanksgiving, to Christmas, to the various holidays that people celebrate this time of year. And so what are some tips or some things we might glean from eat like a heroine and the literature and the characters that we love as we embark on this season that I get a lot of joy out of. But also I think a lot of people, particularly women, feel a lot of pressure from pressure to host, pressure to extend the exact right amount or type of hospitality. What can we learn from your book, from the characters and the literature we love that can help us maybe have a cozy, comforting holiday season rather than a strenuous, stressful one? One.
- [46:21]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah, I would say we have two chapters on hospitality, Pinafore hospitality, which is casual hospitality, and puff sleeved hospitality. So, so really with Christmas coming up and Thanksgiving, I think you have a choice, you know, which, which one do you want to do or, or maybe you want to do both or maybe, you know, but you can, you can, can scale it down or up to your own capacity and what gives you joy. Right. And I think you're right. As women, we feel like, you know, I've heard some of my friends say if I didn't, if I didn't work this hard, Christmas wouldn't happen at my house. Right. So we feel like we're carrying the whole thing and, and you know, my husband doesn't even really like Christmas. Like he, you know, because there's so much hoopla and he, he much pre. Is like Thanksgiving where he can just sit and eat and watch the football.
- [47:22]
Annie Jones
Game and a little lower key.
- [47:24]
Laura Lee Kraker
Yeah. No one is expecting him to put up a tree or anything like that. So I think that it comes back to compassion for ourselves. And you know, I remember a Christmas years ago when I was making wrapping paper out of potato prints, right. And I, I was frantically making this wrapping paper because my, my brother and his wife and their children were going to come over for like our Christmas gathering. And I, and I look back, I'm like, what was I on at that point? Because I was miserable. But I think I was living into some sort of caricature of something that I needed to be, to be like the best, best aunt. Well, you know, those kids don't care about, I mean they're wrapping paper for sure. They don't care. Right. And I always give my nephews and nieces a book. And now my 16 great nieces and nephews, I give Them each a book for Christmas. And you know what? They're not always going to love a book for Christmas. And, and even sometimes, you know, they didn't love a book. But you know, what they care about is how I make them feel and that they can count on me for support. So I just think we just need to be very compassionate to ourselves and do what we can do and leave the rest up to other people, honestly.
- [48:58]
Annie Jones
Well, and maybe know ourselves a little better. You know, I think about, I think I have several different. This is what I love about having different women in my life. Different friends, different matriarchal figures. Like I have my wonderful mom, but I also have some wonderful aunts, my mother in law. And like my mom loves to wrap a present. I mean and her wrapping is beautiful. And she, I think for the most part, I don't want to speak for her, but I don't think that's stressful to her. I think she genuinely enjoys that. She loves the artistry of it. I have another, like my mother in law does not like that gift wrapping is not her thing and other things are her thing. She's a fantastic cook. And so I like looking at women and looking at heroines in my life and in the life of the literature I love and seeing, oh, there are so many different ways to be a hostess or there are so many ways to embrace the holiday season and one does not cast judgment on the other. So my mom has these beautiful beautifully wrapped presents and when I can, that's what like I like to do too. I inherited that from her. I love doing that and I do that at the bookshelf all the time. But when I get home, if I don't have the energy for that or the capacity for that because I've done it at the bookstore all day, I can also look to my mother in law and think, oh, a bag is fine. And so I like, I would love for the heroines in my life and the women in my life to know you can fully have self compassion like you said and fully embrace the parts that you're good at because then you show the rest of us, oh, there are multiple ways to do this. You know, you can, if you really want to, you can potato paint, wrapping paper, but if you don't want to do that, that's okay. And so like Lear, that we don't have to pass judgment on each other too. For whether we're puff sleeved hospitality or pinafore hospitality, like allowing each of us to lean into the one that we are best at. Jenny, was there anything that you think that maybe we can learn from the book as we embark on the holiday season?
- [50:57]
Jenny Williams
Well, I think what you said just kind of summarizes it perfectly. There's not one way to be a heroine. And I think remembering that just looking around, not every period of your life has to be a period of growth. And like, you don't always have to do the thing that seems hard and unattainable, especially during the holiday season. You know, you can just lean into what you're good at and let other people around you shine. I think that's wonderful. The thing that makes you a heroine is your mindset. And when you fall down, you get back up. And so there's not. It's not. Yeah. We get all these ideas in our head about what a heroine looks like and really it is just picking yourself up and moving on and not being. Refusing to be the victim. It's. I'm, I'm going to be the heroine of the holiday season and not the victim. So what's that going to look like? And I think sometimes it just takes a little reflection.
- [51:47]
Annie Jones
This has been such a delightful conversation. You can purchase Eat Like a Heroine through the bookshelf. We do have copies in the store. We would love for you to support our store that way. Bookshelf thomasville.com and then you can search for Eat Like a Heroine. Jenny. Where can folks find you online?
- [52:03]
Jenny Williams
Carrot Top Paper Shop.com will take you to my Etsy page. Also the same on Instagram or my website that encompasses everything is artistjennywilliams.com and lauralee.
- [52:17]
Annie Jones
Where can folks find you online?
- [52:19]
Laura Lee Kraker
So the best place to find me online is on Instagram. He Bookseller's daughter.
- [52:24]
Annie Jones
Wonderful. Thank you both so much for being here. Thanks for sharing so much about your heart behind the book and the book itself. This is just such a lovely. I really do believe in this book and I really think it's just a lovely gift for the holiday season in particular. So thank you both for being here.
- [52:38]
Laura Lee Kraker
Thank you for having us.
- [52:40]
Jenny Williams
Thank you, Annie. We're so grateful.
- [52:45]
Annie Jones
This week. What I Am Reading is brought to you by the city of Thomasville, Georgia. There is something truly special about the holiday season in downtown Thomasville. The twinkling lights, beautifully decorated store windows and holiday events all add to the festive feeling of the season. Let us be your shopping and dining destination this holiday season. So spend Christmas in Thomasville with us. Activities are held every weekend leading up to Christmas, including this year's 38th annual Victorian Christmas on December 12th and 13th. You can learn more by visiting thomasvillega.com or call our visitor center, 229-228-7977 listen it really is the most magical time of year in Thomasville. My mom, dad, aunt, husband and cousin Ashley flew in. She flew in from North Carolina to help get the Bookshelf holiday ready. And part of the reason we spend so much time and effort making the Bookshelf magical for the holidays is because the rest of Thomasville does the exact same thing. So if you follow the Bookshelf on Instagram, if you've seen our sneak peeks and our pretty holiday windows and our snowflakes and disco balls and you have thought, oh, how special, how pretty. I just want you to know the whole town feels that way. When I see the ornaments start to go up in the downtown trees, the wreaths start to grace our downtown lights, I know it's Christmas. I know it's time for the holidays. And if you are looking for just a really special place to prepare your heart and mind for the holiday season, which can often feel overwhelming, exhausting, maybe just a lot of hustle and bustle. If you want to take a deep breath and just bear witness to the magic of Christmas, I think Thomasville is just the place to do it. Thank you again to our sponsor, Thomasville, Georgia. You can learn more by visiting thomasvillega.com.
- [55:02]
Jenny Williams
This week.
- [55:02]
Annie Jones
Week I'm reading Penitence by Kristen Koval from the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of the Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow the Bookshelf's daily happenings on Instagram, ookshelftville and all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website bookshelf thomasville.com a full transcript of today's podcast episode can be found at. From the frontporchpodcast.com Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of from the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. Our executive producers of today's episode are Cami Tidwell, Chantal Carle, Kate O'Connell, Kristin May, Linda Lee Jost Jean Queens, Amanda Wickham, Martha Stacy Lau, Chance Combs, Stephanie Dean, Ashley Farrell, Nicole Marcy, Wendy Jenkins.
- [56:09]
Laura Lee Kraker
Lori Johnson, Susan Mulings.
- [56:12]
Annie Jones
Thank you all for your support of from the Front Porch. If you'd like to support from the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcast Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and helps us reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone. Look for from the Front Porch, scroll down until you see, write a review and tell us what you think. Or if you're so inclined, support us. Over on Patreon, where we have three levels of support, each level has an amazing number of benefits, like bonus content, access to live events, discounts and giveaways. Just go to patreon.com from the front porch we're so grateful for you and we look forward to meeting back here next week.