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[00:05]
A
You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right?
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B
I mean, you have a reminder from
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A
the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment. And you just cannot remember one more thing. That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all in one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores and when your kid can do those things independently. It's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky, that's my S K-Y-L-I G-H-T.com B-C-K-Y for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. Myskylight.com Becky a new dad walks into a room. He looks the same. Same face, same body, same sweatshirt he's been wearing for three days. The baby cries and something in him changes. Not metaphorically, not just emotionally, biologically. When a woman gets pregnant, her body physically reorganizes itself around the growing baby. Every system adapts. And over the last decade, we've learned that the brain does too. There's a name for this transformation, matrescence. We talk about it a lot on Rattled, our podcast for new parents. And that science kind of makes intuitive sense. Of course, the person who's body grew the baby would be wired for deep connection with that baby. And the flip side of that assumption, the one that almost nobody questioned, is that fathers just weren't wired that way. Dad brain was just regular brain. Dr. Darby Saxby spent two decades running brain scans on men to test that. And the same regions that change and morph in new mothers change and morph in new fathers. The more hands on a dad is, the more pronounced the changes are. Dad brain is real.
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Darby is a psychologist and neuroscientist at
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usc, one of the only researchers in the world collecting longitudinal brain data on men as they become fathers.
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Her book is dad brain. I'm Dr. Becky.
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A
This is good inside.
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B
So, Darby, your husband developed a stress related eye condition when you were pregnant with your first kid. And I want to start there because I feel like there's something in this story that is in some ways the premise of a lot of your work or led you to kind of pull a thread. So take us back to that moment.
[03:05]
C
Yes. So he got this mysterious blurry smudge in the middle of his vision and it was almost like he had this little blind spot when he was trying to see. And of course he freaked out, as one does when, you know your vision is suddenly obscured. And he went to the doctor and the doctor said, it's this condition called central serous retinopathy and it's stress related. So what's been going on? Have you lost your job? Are you having money trouble? Any big moves? He said, no, but my wife is expecting a baby. And the doctor said, aha, tell her to go easy on you. And of course I did not go easy on him. And the condition went away after our first child was born. And then a few years later, I was pregnant with our second and it came back. So we thankfully stopped at two children. So that's as far as he went.
[04:01]
B
Yeah, like pull on that a little bit more. What was going on for him or if, you know, if you knew then what, you know now, maybe what's your today lens on what was happening?
[04:10]
C
Yeah, definitely. So you know, when you're getting ready to have a new baby, I think culturally we see this as this joyful event you must be celebrating, you must be thrilled. But I think for both moms and dads who are expecting a new kid, there's also a lot of stress, there's a lot of uncertainty. People start to worry about money, they're worrying about where they're going to live. And so he, I think, was much more concerned about all these different uncertainties around my pregnancy than even I realized. And I think that was a helpful insight for me that, you know, we see the visible transformation of motherhood. It's so obvious when a woman is expecting and we have all these cultural rituals kind of centered around that rite of passage. But for dads, there's so much that's invisible that's kind of happening under the hood. And he was kind of grappling with all these worries that I hadn't even been aware of and they were causing this stress related eye condition.
[05:12]
B
Now you had a really interesting experience watching your husband go through this kind of stress related medical condition, but I feel like some of your experience that inspired your work happened earlier than that happened watching your own dad. Right. So your parents got divorced. Your dad ended up as a primary parent and you described him Going from kind of the father who would, I don't know, be doing his own thing in the study to the parent who was arguably, you know, the most patient present one.
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A
So what.
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B
What happened?
[05:41]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right. So my dad was this kind of typical, checked out, 1980s father, kind of hiding in the study while my mom was doing all the hard work of getting us into bed. And after my parents got divorced, they negotiated joint custody. So one week on with our dad, one week on with our mom, we were switching every Monday. And so all of a sudden, my dad went from, you know, peripheral person in the background to primary parent for four very feral children. And he had to really, like, figure out how to step up. He did all the cooking, he did all the laundry, he did all the cleaning. He drove us places, he taught me how to drive. And he ultimately became this really steady presence in my teenage, teenage years. And really, in a lot of ways, the more patient of my two parents, both of whom are great, thankfully, both of whom are still with us and both of whom have read my book. So thumbs up, hopefully from both of them. But I really got to see in real time him going through this transformation from very secondary parent to primary parent, and I saw how it changed him, and he derived a lot of meaning and I think a lot of purpose from that transition.
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B
Okay, so let's link that to a lot of your work today.
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A
Right.
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B
Because at the time when you were noticing those changes in your dad, you weren't doing kind of such deep research, but maybe it was kind of real things in your environment that inspired this research. Now, so you scanned father's brains before and after their babies were born. What were you expecting to find? And, yeah, like what. What surprised you along the way?
[07:25]
C
Yeah. So, you know, they say in psychology research is me search. So we're always, like, trying to go into the field that we want to figure out. So of course, I was studying parents and stress and dads and families and. And so when I was setting up my lab and I wanted to do a neuroimaging study, I was really interested in the transition to parenthood. Initially, I thought I might scan moms. I could not get ethics board permission to get moms into the scanner. And I thought, dads are fascinating. I should scan dads. And as soon as that light bulb went off, I was like, oh, actually, dads are so understudied. There's so much to learn. And so, to be honest, I wasn't totally sure what to expect because there weren't a Lot of studies looking longitudinally at how father's brains might change. And, you know, the null hypothesis would just be that you wouldn't see any change at all, because dads are not undergoing pregnancy or breastfeeding or any of the big reproductive transitions that fire up the hormones. And about halfway through my scan study, this really big landmark paper came out in Spain that looked at mother's brains and how they were remodeling across the transition to motherhood and found that actually moms were losing gray matter volume, which I always say this. It sounds bad. It's probably a good thing because it's this streamlining that is making the brain work more efficiently. And the pathways that are where volume is getting reduced are kind of what we would consider to be mentalizing network, like empathetic social brain pathways that are getting a lot of exercise in early parenthood. And so we're sort of developing faster, more efficient connections. So I was so excited. I saw this study, I hopped on a plane, I went to Spain, and I collaborated with the research team, and we pooled their sample of dads who were partners of the women in that motherhood brain study with my sample from usc. And we found that the dads were also losing gray matter volume in some of the same regions. And that was super exciting because it suggested that there's something about brain remodeling that is not specific to one gender, and it's not solely something that shows up in mothers.
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B
Okay, so break that down for me again. You went past it, but I want you to say it again, because I want to fully understand it. So you said it sounds bad when you lose gray matter, but what's your understanding of what's really happening at that time? Say it again.
[10:02]
C
Yeah. So when we parent, we have to do a lot of really hard cognitive work to try to figure out what is going on inside this little person who cannot communicate clearly with us. And we're recruiting what's called the mentalizing network, which kind of comes online when we think about other people's minds and intentions. And so where we see the most change in the mothering brain is in that network. And what is happening is we're losing volume, which reflects that we're streamlining, and we're becoming more efficient because we're getting so much practice along those pathways. And, you know, we also see the brain loses volume in early childhood as kids sort of start to learn and get ready for school. It's like we're pruning and we're consolidating and we're developing sort of more fast working pathways. Kind of like the difference between a bunch of little dirt roads that are going off in all kinds of directions and like a super highway superhighway.
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B
Okay, so when you say mentalizing, right. Is that kind of the process when we have a baby of like, what's, what's going on for them? And I wonder why they're crying and I wonder why they're whining in that way. Oh, maybe they're trying to figure out how to move and how to crawl and that's so hard. And is that kind of my understanding of mentalizing is it's the process of kind of trying to think through, understand how someone else's mind works. Is that right?
[11:29]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think that's one of the things that makes us a skilled parent, right. Is that ability to kind of intuit and then problem solve, to comfort someone who doesn't share our consciousness. Right. And it's like if you think about when a baby cries, all the things that your brain has to do in a split second of like, why are they crying? Okay, I changed them an hour ago. When did they last eat? How well did they sleep? Is there something sticking into their diaper? Right. Like there are just so many things that we have to rule out and we have to problem solve and we might have to experiment, try different strategies to soothe them. And then when we've got them calmed down, we have to enjoy that interaction enough that we're willing to re engage with it. Right. Because babies require constant care.
[12:24]
B
Let me ask you a question. Something I hear from new moms a lot is I feel like I'm one step ahead of, you know, of my husband. Like, I hear, I hear the cry first, I go to the baby first or, you know, I'm faster at reading cues. Is, is there any reality to that based on your work? Is that, is that just a frustration a lot of people, you know, kind of share? But yeah. What, what do you see? What do you see around that?
[12:51]
C
Yeah, I think this is a really common complaint and it can kind of drive a wedge between couples and early parenthood. Like in a lot of ways, if it's been a biological pregnancy, mom just has this huge head start. Like she already feels a bond with the baby. If she's breastfeeding, she has this perfect way to soothe the baby. And I think a lot of dads just feel very left out of that just really close relationship. And you know, that can lead to frustration, you know, it can lead to dad feeling like, I don't know what to do. I'm useless. It can also lead to mom feeling like, why am I always the one who's, you know, doing the default caregiving work? And I think it's just one of those things that takes a lot of communication, and it's helpful if couples kind of anticipate that this might happen. One thing I kind of argue in my book is that for a lot of dads, they feel like they come into their own as parents when the kid is a little older, and they feel like they can take them on excursions, you know, do more activities. And so it's like, dads may really shine at kind of different stages along the parenting journey. And you don't necessarily want to plant these ideas within couples that, you know, mom's the good parent and dad is useless. Right. You kind of want to give dad a lot of opportunities and a lot of windows to really show up as the best parent that he can be.
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B
I also think you found, Tell me
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C
if this is right, that the more
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B
direct care you have as a father with your baby, the more your brain changes. Right. Which I think about this idea of, like, oh, just am I wired for it? I'm not wired for that stage. I'm not good at that stage. But it seems like. Tell me if this is right, Darby, that just like so many other things in life, the more time you put in when it does feel awkward and unnatural. Right. Like all new things do, the more my brain will adapt along the way. Is that true?
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C
Yeah, that's exactly right.
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B
I.
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C
You know, I say great parents are made, not born. You know, we might think that we just know what to do and that maybe moms are wired to have this instinct that will just tell them exactly what the baby needs. And it's really about the practice and it's about the motivation. It's like when dads want to engage, and when they show up consistently, they build that brain circuitry that makes them more responsive and more sensitive as parents. So, you know, that's why I think we need to think about the policy that's giving dads opportunities to spend time with his baby. We want to think about how to empower couples so that dad can build his confidence and his competence, because the brain will show up if the dad is really participating.
[15:42]
B
Now shift with me to kind of the period after you have a baby when maybe some fathers are actually having a really hard time. Right? They're having a hard time. We know depression can be Very real for new fathers.
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A
Right.
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B
Maybe somewhere between 10 and 25% of new fathers feel this. Again, separating this out from what we know is kind of a high maternal postpartum depression rate as well. What's going on for new fathers, you know, with their mood after what might be underlying kind of the difficulty? Transitioning.
[16:15]
C
Yeah. So we know the transition to fatherhood is a risky period for depression. So new dads report depressive symptoms at about twice the rate of men in the general population. And, you know, if you think about what are the risk factors for mom, it's brain changes, hormonal changes, relationship changes, sleep disturbance, wrestling with sense of identity, sense of self. And a lot of those overlap for dads. So they're also experiencing neurobiological change. They're also having their sleep disrupted. They're also grappling with who I am and, you know, am I cut out to be a parent? And dads might also feel this additional kind of breadwinner pressure because we societally expect men to be income earners. And so having a baby can be expensive. And, you know, that can also prompt a lot of stress and worry for dads. So, yeah, the risk factors are there and, and you know, we see it in the data that dads do have this increased prevalence.
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B
Does it look different in dads than in moms?
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C
Yeah, and that's a really important point because I think postpartum depression often doesn't get recognized in dads because it doesn't show up in exactly the same way. So, you know, instead of crying, instead of tears, we might see irritability, dads withdrawing, dad's not wanting to hold the baby or spend time with the baby. You know, it can even turn into hyper focus at work. So dads are at the office all hours of the night and, you know, aren't as engaged in the new family. Like, those are all ways that depression can manifest that can easily be missed.
[18:13]
A
You know that time in summer when it's about 4pm You've been with your kids all day, you're drained because you're driving them everywhere.
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B
You've made snacks 15 times and honestly,
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A
you want something around them that just feels like yours.
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B
Now this is the part that gets
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A
a little serious, but stay with me. That's often a moment when a lot of parents reach for a glass of wine. And this is not a referendum on wine, but so many parents I know tell me I don't even want to have it. I don't like the way it makes me feel in the moment or the next day. But I think what the real need is is that we are looking for something adult.
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B
We are looking to hold something that tells us I am not just a caregiver. Setting up a sleep slip and slide
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A
and making my 19th meal of the day. And honestly, that's one of my favorite reasons for Element.
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B
See, you can use Element as your adult summer drink.
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A
It can be just yours, not for the kids. And then it's 4pm and what you might be looking for isn't necessarily alcohol. You might be looking for something that just reminds you of you that you're an adult. You're not only a caregiver and you're allowed to have something of your own.
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B
Plus the fact that it's healthy, no sugar, and actually hydrates you is going
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A
to take you through the rest of the day and help you stay calmer while it still meets that need. You can check out element@drinkelement.com goodinside that's drinklmnt.com goodinside how do I raise a kid who actually trusts herself? This is one of the questions I hear most from parents because we all want our kids to have a strong sense of self. It's why I'm so excited to partner with Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts gives girls a space that's theirs where they can start community service projects, learn to navigate the outdoors, challenge themselves and make new friends. Girl Scouts meets girls where they are and helps them grow into who they're becoming. And here's what I love as a parent, it's girl led. Adults are there to support, not run the show. So girls make the decisions, solve the problems, and build confidence along the way. In a world that puts a lot of pressure on girls, Girl Scouts is a space where girls can feel joyful and empowered. If you have a daughter in kindergarten through 12th grade, you can visit girlscouts.org to learn more. That's girlscouts.org to learn More.
[20:36]
B
Yeah, and I'm also just thinking that, you know, the withdrawal to an area of life where you feel competent. Right. In some ways gives us insight. I think dads, the dads I talk to, they really want to feel competent at home and they don't. They're like, I don't really know. I feel awkward even holding my baby. I mean, this is the first baby I ever held. Right. Or I don't really know how to diaper. I don't know how to swaddle. Now, let me just put it out there. I know a lot of women too who say, yeah, this is the first baby I held, first baby I diapered, first baby I swaddled. And I'm the one figuring it out a hundred percent, right? But sometimes that withdrawal in the workplace, I just wonder if it's a new dad's way of saying, it's really hard for me to be in an environment where I don't know what to do. And I think if we look at it with that lens, it's a little easier to invite someone in and also to demand, okay, this is our child. We both need to become involved. We both can learn. We both can fumble. We both can do this stuff awkwardly.
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C
Yeah, I think that is exactly right. That's such an important point that, you know, it's scary when you're not sure what to do and the stakes feel really high. Like, this is this little baby, and you don't want to make a mistake. And it's also a really important point that you just made that for a lot of parents, the first baby they've held is their own. Because that's just so unique in our human history. You know, like, we evolved in these communities where there was a lot of intergenerational care, there was a lot of community care. Like, we are designed to parent. You know, it's called alloparenting. Like, we are. It's called cooperative breeders. Like, we're supposed to be helping each other out, and instead, we're in these very isolated nuclear families where we just don't give as much experience with baby and child care. And so I think it can be a huge shock for both mom and for dads to just be like, how does this little creature even operate? You know, I don't know what to expect. We don't have that intergenerational wisdom. And I think for men who we really socialize to expect to be good at things, be competent, be making money, you know, be striving and achieving. It is really hard to admit that they're not good at this. And I think you're exactly right. It just needs to be a conversation like, neither of us know what we're doing, and that's why we're gonna practice.
[23:10]
B
Looking back now on what might have been happening with your dad. What was going on for him, you think in that time he was thrust into this role of primary parent for the days he had you, what was going on in his brain? Yeah. What was happening from a neuroscience perspective?
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C
Yeah, I mean, I think it was really hard for him at first to just be like, I don't know what I'm doing. I have to suddenly be in charge of all these kids. And then I think through embracing it, he actually started enjoying a lot of it. I write about this in the book, but we had these routines. Every Monday night, we'd go pick out a movie at the video rental store. Every Friday night, we'd go to Friendly's, and we'd get Sundays. He would take us to church on Sundays, and he sang in the choir. So we had these things that we did together as a family. And he wrote me this letter that I got as an adult in which he said, like, the divorce was one of the hardest things I've ever experienced. And the thing that kept me going was being a parent. It was like, the thing that made me want to put one foot in front of the other. And I have to say, like, I was so touched and also surprised because I was like, we were such brats. Like, you know, he's, like, alone in our small town with these kids, but I think he felt like it just gave him this level of meaning and that he ended up loving it.
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B
What stands out to me about that is something that I think is really true for anything we really throw ourselves into, which is it always feels hard at first. It always feels awkward. It always is met with resistance. Like, you said, you were being brats. I don't know. Or part of you was also adjusting to this divorce and also adjusting to, like, hey, you've always been in the study. Like, I don't really know this guy. Who is he? Is this guy gonna stay? Are you always gonna be patient? Are you always gonna be involved? Are you gonna go back and retreat? We all have reactions to new things. And I think about the father listening, who feels hopeful, like, okay, it's not too late. Darby's dad kind of changed it. Okay. The awkwardness maybe isn't a sign I'm doing it wrong. Maybe it's a sign I'm doing it now, and that's how, you know, new things feel. And I just think all of those signs, the pushback, the. Ugh, this is hard. Oh, this feels awkward. I think to know that that is all part of a journey that leads to what your dad said. Like, this is actually what led me to keep going. This is what became the most meaningful part of my life. I just think about how hopeful that is for the dad listening.
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C
Yeah, I love the way you put that. And it's like, men can do hard things, right? Like, we grow when we do hard things. And I think it's. It's when you're sort of brave enough to try doing something that's scary, that feels daunting, that you kind of reap the greatest rewards. And I think when people feel like they're parenting and they're really giving their best, there's an honor in that, and there's a pride in that that I think we can celebrate for both moms and for dads. Like, I think we. We on. We undervalue, I think a lot of, like, the hard work that goes into parenting and the stress that parents are under. And I think if you think about parents as, like, our most precious natural resource. Right. Like, is there anything more important than raising the next generation of humans? It's like, this is what life is about more than make money or having the perfect body fat percentage or, you know, anything else that we can strive to do.
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B
This is legacy, right?
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C
Yeah. It's literally building the future. Yeah.
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B
What else do you want to leave a dad with? A dad who's listening? Oh, my brain changes, too. Oh, that's why things feel awkward. Oh, I can also lean in and learn these skills. What else do you want to say to him?
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C
Yeah, I mean, I think building confidence through practice, through repetition is, you know, the project of parenting. And it's also kind of just the project of growing as a person when we tackle any new challenge. And you know, what the research shows us is there's nothing about motherhood that means you're innately wired to care. It's like, we don't just have a maternal brain. We have a parental brain, and men can build that, too. And, you know, not every man is going to be the world's greatest dad. But what makes us human is that we have this capacity to care and to be flexible and to be adaptive and to build brains that, you know, fit to match the challenges that we're undertaking. So, you know, I think if dads are feeling nervous or uncertain or like they're not good at it, then, you know, the best thing they can do is try.
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B
And.
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C
And it's actually in the trying that you kind of show up. And I think your kids can see how hard you're trying, and that's what they're going to remember more than you being a perfect parent. Right. Like, there's no such thing as a perfect mother or a perfect father.
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B
There's never met them. Never met them.
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C
They don't exist. And there's just the parent that tries, and there's the parent that shows up. There was the parent that is consistent. And I think that's what really counts for kids.
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B
I want to end with some rapid fire. You ready?
[28:42]
C
Yeah.
[28:43]
B
Okay.
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A
What is something you wish someone had said to your dad when he was
[28:47]
B
in the thick of adjusting to solo parenting?
[28:50]
C
Oh, wow. I mean, I think just like, keep going. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. And also when your kids sleep late and don't wake up for church because they watch too much tv, maybe don't unplug the TV and throw it out the window. Although that did work. I did stop watching TV after the TV went out the window.
[29:10]
B
Short term effective, maybe not. You know, the best long term impact. Right. These are the hard decisions we have. Okay. What do you think is, I don't know, a mistake or a misreading or a misunderstanding we make about new dads?
[29:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think when we see the dads are withdrawn or they're not participating fully, I think we can. We can sort of assume that they are. They're bad dads or that they don't care. And you and I have talked about this already a little bit, but it might not be that they're bad people or that they don't care, that they don't want to be there for their kids. It could just be that they're helpless and they're confused and they're not sure where to start. So I think, like, extending grace and compassion, then of course, like, you know, and men also have to extend grace and compassion because their partner is gonna look different and act different from maybe what they're used to.
[30:08]
B
I just like there. You know, I talk a lot about the least generous interpretation we can have of someone's behavior, which is most natural to all of us. Like, you see your partner pulling away. The least generous interpretation is they don't care. They don't even wanna be involved. They don't even. They're not bothered by the fact that I'm doing 99% of the work here. But maybe the MGI, the most generous interpretation is, what if my partner doesn't know where to start and so they feel kind of incompetent. And maybe when they feel incompetent, even predating our marriage, their defense is to kind of pull away.
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A
Right. Ooh.
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B
Again, it's not about saying it's okay. It's not about permissiveness. But does that framework shift? Would that actually help me intervene in a way that I'm going to be more likely to get what I want? Because I'll probably say something very different, you know, to my partner, whether it's the first interpretation. And I'd pull away myself or say, oh, you don't even care about this child. You don't care about me. Which probably provokes defensiveness. And then I think about the second interpretation. Maybe I'd be more likely to say, hey, this is so new for both of us. I don't know about for you, but I know it can be hard to know where to start with diapering or with learning the schedule or with washing the bottles. Is that going on for you? Because if it is, I think that's very workable between the two of us.
[31:25]
A
Right.
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B
Then I could just see that being a lot more productive.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we know the transition to parenthood is such a big risk factor for couple relationship conflict and distress. And I think a lot of it is around these conversations.
[31:42]
B
Okay, last question. What is something fatherhood does for men that we don't talk about or celebrate?
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C
Yeah. There is actually this fascinating emerging new research literature suggesting that parenthood can make the brain look younger. So there are these big studies from the UK Biobank. It's this repository of tens of thousands of brain scans taken from people in middle age to late life. And they find that when people have more children, they have markers of a younger looking brain. So if you adjust their brain age from the scans against their chronological age, they actually just look like they have younger brains. It's true for both moms and for dads. So it tells us it's not just about pregnancy hormones. It's not just about birth and breastfeeding. It's really about the experience of having been a parent. It seems to be neuroprotective. And my hunch is it's probably reflecting the social integration that we get, you know, when we're invested in our family relationships. And that can keep us healthier in old age. Wow.
[32:50]
B
Did you hear that, people? You might feel like you're older in every way, but your brain is a little younger.
[33:02]
A
Anything that we do that's new always feels awkward. And I know I said that earlier today, but I really want to end on that because our brain, our body, has a tendency to interpret awkward as wrong or maybe a lot of us, and this is a good moment to reflect, kind of respond to awkwardness with avoidance and withdrawal. That was awkward. So I'm just going to move to a part of my life that feels easier and more natural. Anything we do that's easy or natural is just something we've practiced or probably generations before us practiced. And so if we're going to do anything differently. And maybe a lot of dads would honestly say, being really involved as a father, doing that playtime on the floor, holding my baby, changing diapers, being involved in emotional conversations.
[33:50]
B
Anyone who would say, yeah, I'm probably the first dad in a long lineage
[33:54]
A
to do that, I just want you to know that that awkwardness is not a sign you're doing something wrong. It's a sign you're doing something new,
[34:01]
B
something that every generation after you is going to benefit from. They're going to have the privilege of
[34:07]
A
that feeling natural and normal because you took on that burden of pushing through when it felt awkward. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.

Summary6 min read

Good Inside with Dr. Becky

Episode: Great Dads Are Made, Not Born: The Neuroscience of Fatherhood
Date: July 7, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Becky Kennedy explores the neuroscience of fatherhood, debunking the myth that great dads are simply "born" and highlighting how fatherhood physically and emotionally transforms men. Dr. Becky welcomes Dr. Darby Saxby, a psychologist and neuroscientist at USC, whose pioneering research tracks the actual brain changes in men as they become fathers. The discussion addresses the psychological and emotional journey of new dads, the relevance of hands-on parenting, and how awkwardness and growing pains are a natural part of the parenting process for fathers (and mothers alike).

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Biological Reality: "Dad Brain" is Real

[00:09–02:40]

It was long assumed that only mothers experience significant neurological shifts after having a child (“matrescence”).
Dr. Saxby counters, “Dad brain is real”—men’s brains also undergo transformation when they become fathers, especially if they are hands-on.
Notable Quote:

“The more hands on a dad is, the more pronounced the changes are. Dad brain is real.”
—Dr. Becky ([02:25])

A Personal Lens on Fatherhood Transformation

[02:48–06:58]

Dr. Saxby shares her husband’s experience with stress-induced eye issues during her pregnancies, which a doctor linked to stress about impending fatherhood.
Growing up, Saxby saw her own father transform from a "checked out" 1980s dad to a highly engaged, nurturing parent after her parents’ divorce.
Notable Quote:

“He ultimately became this really steady presence...and really, in a lot of ways, the more patient of my two parents.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([06:06])

Groundbreaking Research: Scanning Fathers' Brains

[07:03–09:48]

Dr. Saxby, initially intending to study mothers’ brains, became one of the first to launch longitudinal studies on men as they become fathers.
Remarkably, “dads were also losing gray matter volume in some of the same regions” as mothers post-birth. This isn’t negative—it reflects efficiency and adaptability.
Notable Quote:

“There’s something about brain remodeling that is not specific to one gender, and it’s not solely something that shows up in mothers.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([09:34])

What Does “Losing Gray Matter” Mean?

[09:48–11:28]

The loss of gray matter isn’t bad; it’s brain pruning, making pathways more efficient—like consolidating dirt roads into a superhighway.
The regions affected (“mentalizing network”) are key to empathy, problem-solving, and understanding another’s mind—core skills for parenting.

Why Do Moms Often Seem “Ahead”?

[12:24–14:20]

Moms can appear one step ahead simply due to more practice and a "head start" (pregnancy, breastfeeding).
Dads may feel sidelined in the early months, which can create frustration or withdrawal.
It’s crucial both partners recognize that awkwardness is normal—dads may shine at later stages.
Notable Quote:

“You don’t necessarily want to plant these ideas within couples that, you know, mom’s the good parent and dad is useless.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([13:21])

The More Dads Engage, the More Their Brains Change

[14:20–15:41]

Direct engagement builds dads’ brain circuits for nurturing—skills are forged through repetition, not innate wiring.
Notable Quote:

“Great parents are made, not born… when they show up consistently, they build that brain circuitry...”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([14:51])

Postpartum Depression in Dads

[15:41–18:12]

Fathers are at higher risk for depression in the early postpartum period—sometimes double the general population.
Symptoms in men can look different (irritability, withdrawal, overworking) and are often missed.
Notable Quote:

“Instead of crying, instead of tears, we might see irritability, dads withdrawing, dad’s not wanting to hold the baby, or spend time with the baby... it can easily be missed.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([17:29])

Why Dads (and Moms) Often Feel Incompetent

[20:36–23:10]

The lack of hands-on childcare experience is a modern reality, not just for dads—often it’s everyone’s “first baby.”
Our isolated nuclear families mean we miss out on alloparenting; awkwardness is normal for both.
Notable Quote:

“For men who we really socialize to expect to be good at things... it is really hard to admit that they’re not good at this... It just needs to be a conversation like, neither of us know what we're doing, and that's why we're gonna practice.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([22:00])

Meaning, Pride, and the Power of Showing Up

[23:10–26:55]

Dr. Saxby reflects on how her father’s consistent parenting after divorce gave his life meaning, even though it was hard and met with resistance at first.
Dr. Becky underscores that awkwardness isn’t failure—it’s part of learning something impactful and new.
Notable Quote:

“Men can do hard things, right? We grow when we do hard things. It’s when you’re sort of brave enough to do something that’s scary...that you reap the greatest rewards.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([25:49])

Practice, Not Perfection: The Message for Dads

[26:56–28:39]

Both researchers emphasize that confidence in parenting grows through repetition and effort, not innate skill.
There is no perfect parent; what children remember is their parent showing up and trying.
Notable Quotes:

“There's no such thing as a perfect mother or a perfect father.”
—Dr. Becky ([28:25])
“There's just the parent that tries, and there's the parent that shows up. There was the parent that is consistent. And I think that's what really counts for kids.”
—Dr. Darby Saxby ([28:28])

Memorable Moments & Rapid Fire

Rapid Fire Segment [28:39–32:50]:

Advice to her own dad in the past? “Keep going. Keep putting one foot in front of the other.” ([28:49])
Common wrong assumption about new dads: Withdrawal doesn’t mean they don’t care; it often means they don’t know where to start ([29:27])
“Least generous” vs. “most generous” interpretations of a dad’s withdrawal—choosing compassion and communication helps ([30:07])
Surprising finding: Parenthood can make the brain look younger in both moms and dads, possibly due to increased social integration and emotional engagement ([31:50])

Closing Wisdom & Takeaways

[33:01–34:06]

Awkwardness in new parenting is not a sign of doing it wrong, but of doing something new.
Being the first in your family—or community—to fully engage as a father might feel uncomfortable, but it lays a new foundation for future generations.
Notable Quote:

“That awkwardness is not a sign you’re doing something wrong. It’s a sign you’re doing something new, something that every generation after you is going to benefit from.”
—Dr. Becky ([33:53])

Essential Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------|------------| | "Dad brain is real": setting stage | 02:25 | | Dr. Saxby’s family story | 05:41 | | Discovery of brain changes in dads | 07:24–09:48| | What “losing gray matter” means | 10:01–11:03| | Moms’ head start and couples’ frustration | 12:24–14:20| | More involvement = more brain adaptation | 14:20–15:41| | Paternal postpartum depression | 15:41–18:12| | Modern parenting: why both parents feel green | 20:36–23:10| | Practice, consistency over perfection | 26:56–28:39| | Parenthood may protect brain aging | 31:50 | | Final wisdom on awkwardness and legacy | 33:01–34:06|

Tone & Style

The episode is warm, open, and deeply empathetic. Dr. Becky leads with curiosity and validation, while Dr. Saxby’s blend of personal narrative and accessible science invites dads into the conversation—not as passive helpers, but as dynamic, evolving parents learning alongside their partners.

Useful for Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode provides hope, practical reassurance, and science-backed confirmation that any parent—mom or dad—can grow into the role through effort and engagement. Fathers, in particular, are encouraged to embrace awkwardness as a sign of growth and to show up, try, and keep trying—not just for their children’s sake, but for their own meaning and even future brain health.

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Transcript84 lines

[00:05]
A
You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right?
[00:08]
B
I mean, you have a reminder from
[00:09]
A
the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment. And you just cannot remember one more thing. That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all in one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores and when your kid can do those things independently. It's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky, that's my S K-Y-L-I G-H-T.com B-C-K-Y for $30 off your 15 inch calendar. Myskylight.com Becky a new dad walks into a room. He looks the same. Same face, same body, same sweatshirt he's been wearing for three days. The baby cries and something in him changes. Not metaphorically, not just emotionally, biologically. When a woman gets pregnant, her body physically reorganizes itself around the growing baby. Every system adapts. And over the last decade, we've learned that the brain does too. There's a name for this transformation, matrescence. We talk about it a lot on Rattled, our podcast for new parents. And that science kind of makes intuitive sense. Of course, the person who's body grew the baby would be wired for deep connection with that baby. And the flip side of that assumption, the one that almost nobody questioned, is that fathers just weren't wired that way. Dad brain was just regular brain. Dr. Darby Saxby spent two decades running brain scans on men to test that. And the same regions that change and morph in new mothers change and morph in new fathers. The more hands on a dad is, the more pronounced the changes are. Dad brain is real.
[02:30]
B
Darby is a psychologist and neuroscientist at
[02:33]
A
usc, one of the only researchers in the world collecting longitudinal brain data on men as they become fathers.
[02:40]
B
Her book is dad brain. I'm Dr. Becky.
[02:44]
A
This is good inside.
[02:48]
B
So, Darby, your husband developed a stress related eye condition when you were pregnant with your first kid. And I want to start there because I feel like there's something in this story that is in some ways the premise of a lot of your work or led you to kind of pull a thread. So take us back to that moment.
[03:05]
C
Yes. So he got this mysterious blurry smudge in the middle of his vision and it was almost like he had this little blind spot when he was trying to see. And of course he freaked out, as one does when, you know your vision is suddenly obscured. And he went to the doctor and the doctor said, it's this condition called central serous retinopathy and it's stress related. So what's been going on? Have you lost your job? Are you having money trouble? Any big moves? He said, no, but my wife is expecting a baby. And the doctor said, aha, tell her to go easy on you. And of course I did not go easy on him. And the condition went away after our first child was born. And then a few years later, I was pregnant with our second and it came back. So we thankfully stopped at two children. So that's as far as he went.
[04:01]
B
Yeah, like pull on that a little bit more. What was going on for him or if, you know, if you knew then what, you know now, maybe what's your today lens on what was happening?
[04:10]
C
Yeah, definitely. So you know, when you're getting ready to have a new baby, I think culturally we see this as this joyful event you must be celebrating, you must be thrilled. But I think for both moms and dads who are expecting a new kid, there's also a lot of stress, there's a lot of uncertainty. People start to worry about money, they're worrying about where they're going to live. And so he, I think, was much more concerned about all these different uncertainties around my pregnancy than even I realized. And I think that was a helpful insight for me that, you know, we see the visible transformation of motherhood. It's so obvious when a woman is expecting and we have all these cultural rituals kind of centered around that rite of passage. But for dads, there's so much that's invisible that's kind of happening under the hood. And he was kind of grappling with all these worries that I hadn't even been aware of and they were causing this stress related eye condition.
[05:12]
B
Now you had a really interesting experience watching your husband go through this kind of stress related medical condition, but I feel like some of your experience that inspired your work happened earlier than that happened watching your own dad. Right. So your parents got divorced. Your dad ended up as a primary parent and you described him Going from kind of the father who would, I don't know, be doing his own thing in the study to the parent who was arguably, you know, the most patient present one.
[05:40]
A
So what.
[05:40]
B
What happened?
[05:41]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right. So my dad was this kind of typical, checked out, 1980s father, kind of hiding in the study while my mom was doing all the hard work of getting us into bed. And after my parents got divorced, they negotiated joint custody. So one week on with our dad, one week on with our mom, we were switching every Monday. And so all of a sudden, my dad went from, you know, peripheral person in the background to primary parent for four very feral children. And he had to really, like, figure out how to step up. He did all the cooking, he did all the laundry, he did all the cleaning. He drove us places, he taught me how to drive. And he ultimately became this really steady presence in my teenage, teenage years. And really, in a lot of ways, the more patient of my two parents, both of whom are great, thankfully, both of whom are still with us and both of whom have read my book. So thumbs up, hopefully from both of them. But I really got to see in real time him going through this transformation from very secondary parent to primary parent, and I saw how it changed him, and he derived a lot of meaning and I think a lot of purpose from that transition.
[06:58]
B
Okay, so let's link that to a lot of your work today.
[07:03]
A
Right.
[07:03]
B
Because at the time when you were noticing those changes in your dad, you weren't doing kind of such deep research, but maybe it was kind of real things in your environment that inspired this research. Now, so you scanned father's brains before and after their babies were born. What were you expecting to find? And, yeah, like what. What surprised you along the way?
[07:25]
C
Yeah. So, you know, they say in psychology research is me search. So we're always, like, trying to go into the field that we want to figure out. So of course, I was studying parents and stress and dads and families and. And so when I was setting up my lab and I wanted to do a neuroimaging study, I was really interested in the transition to parenthood. Initially, I thought I might scan moms. I could not get ethics board permission to get moms into the scanner. And I thought, dads are fascinating. I should scan dads. And as soon as that light bulb went off, I was like, oh, actually, dads are so understudied. There's so much to learn. And so, to be honest, I wasn't totally sure what to expect because there weren't a Lot of studies looking longitudinally at how father's brains might change. And, you know, the null hypothesis would just be that you wouldn't see any change at all, because dads are not undergoing pregnancy or breastfeeding or any of the big reproductive transitions that fire up the hormones. And about halfway through my scan study, this really big landmark paper came out in Spain that looked at mother's brains and how they were remodeling across the transition to motherhood and found that actually moms were losing gray matter volume, which I always say this. It sounds bad. It's probably a good thing because it's this streamlining that is making the brain work more efficiently. And the pathways that are where volume is getting reduced are kind of what we would consider to be mentalizing network, like empathetic social brain pathways that are getting a lot of exercise in early parenthood. And so we're sort of developing faster, more efficient connections. So I was so excited. I saw this study, I hopped on a plane, I went to Spain, and I collaborated with the research team, and we pooled their sample of dads who were partners of the women in that motherhood brain study with my sample from usc. And we found that the dads were also losing gray matter volume in some of the same regions. And that was super exciting because it suggested that there's something about brain remodeling that is not specific to one gender, and it's not solely something that shows up in mothers.
[09:49]
B
Okay, so break that down for me again. You went past it, but I want you to say it again, because I want to fully understand it. So you said it sounds bad when you lose gray matter, but what's your understanding of what's really happening at that time? Say it again.
[10:02]
C
Yeah. So when we parent, we have to do a lot of really hard cognitive work to try to figure out what is going on inside this little person who cannot communicate clearly with us. And we're recruiting what's called the mentalizing network, which kind of comes online when we think about other people's minds and intentions. And so where we see the most change in the mothering brain is in that network. And what is happening is we're losing volume, which reflects that we're streamlining, and we're becoming more efficient because we're getting so much practice along those pathways. And, you know, we also see the brain loses volume in early childhood as kids sort of start to learn and get ready for school. It's like we're pruning and we're consolidating and we're developing sort of more fast working pathways. Kind of like the difference between a bunch of little dirt roads that are going off in all kinds of directions and like a super highway superhighway.
[11:03]
B
Okay, so when you say mentalizing, right. Is that kind of the process when we have a baby of like, what's, what's going on for them? And I wonder why they're crying and I wonder why they're whining in that way. Oh, maybe they're trying to figure out how to move and how to crawl and that's so hard. And is that kind of my understanding of mentalizing is it's the process of kind of trying to think through, understand how someone else's mind works. Is that right?
[11:29]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think that's one of the things that makes us a skilled parent, right. Is that ability to kind of intuit and then problem solve, to comfort someone who doesn't share our consciousness. Right. And it's like if you think about when a baby cries, all the things that your brain has to do in a split second of like, why are they crying? Okay, I changed them an hour ago. When did they last eat? How well did they sleep? Is there something sticking into their diaper? Right. Like there are just so many things that we have to rule out and we have to problem solve and we might have to experiment, try different strategies to soothe them. And then when we've got them calmed down, we have to enjoy that interaction enough that we're willing to re engage with it. Right. Because babies require constant care.
[12:24]
B
Let me ask you a question. Something I hear from new moms a lot is I feel like I'm one step ahead of, you know, of my husband. Like, I hear, I hear the cry first, I go to the baby first or, you know, I'm faster at reading cues. Is, is there any reality to that based on your work? Is that, is that just a frustration a lot of people, you know, kind of share? But yeah. What, what do you see? What do you see around that?
[12:51]
C
Yeah, I think this is a really common complaint and it can kind of drive a wedge between couples and early parenthood. Like in a lot of ways, if it's been a biological pregnancy, mom just has this huge head start. Like she already feels a bond with the baby. If she's breastfeeding, she has this perfect way to soothe the baby. And I think a lot of dads just feel very left out of that just really close relationship. And you know, that can lead to frustration, you know, it can lead to dad feeling like, I don't know what to do. I'm useless. It can also lead to mom feeling like, why am I always the one who's, you know, doing the default caregiving work? And I think it's just one of those things that takes a lot of communication, and it's helpful if couples kind of anticipate that this might happen. One thing I kind of argue in my book is that for a lot of dads, they feel like they come into their own as parents when the kid is a little older, and they feel like they can take them on excursions, you know, do more activities. And so it's like, dads may really shine at kind of different stages along the parenting journey. And you don't necessarily want to plant these ideas within couples that, you know, mom's the good parent and dad is useless. Right. You kind of want to give dad a lot of opportunities and a lot of windows to really show up as the best parent that he can be.
[14:20]
B
I also think you found, Tell me
[14:22]
C
if this is right, that the more
[14:24]
B
direct care you have as a father with your baby, the more your brain changes. Right. Which I think about this idea of, like, oh, just am I wired for it? I'm not wired for that stage. I'm not good at that stage. But it seems like. Tell me if this is right, Darby, that just like so many other things in life, the more time you put in when it does feel awkward and unnatural. Right. Like all new things do, the more my brain will adapt along the way. Is that true?
[14:49]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right.
[14:51]
B
I.
[14:51]
C
You know, I say great parents are made, not born. You know, we might think that we just know what to do and that maybe moms are wired to have this instinct that will just tell them exactly what the baby needs. And it's really about the practice and it's about the motivation. It's like when dads want to engage, and when they show up consistently, they build that brain circuitry that makes them more responsive and more sensitive as parents. So, you know, that's why I think we need to think about the policy that's giving dads opportunities to spend time with his baby. We want to think about how to empower couples so that dad can build his confidence and his competence, because the brain will show up if the dad is really participating.
[15:42]
B
Now shift with me to kind of the period after you have a baby when maybe some fathers are actually having a really hard time. Right? They're having a hard time. We know depression can be Very real for new fathers.
[15:55]
A
Right.
[15:56]
B
Maybe somewhere between 10 and 25% of new fathers feel this. Again, separating this out from what we know is kind of a high maternal postpartum depression rate as well. What's going on for new fathers, you know, with their mood after what might be underlying kind of the difficulty? Transitioning.
[16:15]
C
Yeah. So we know the transition to fatherhood is a risky period for depression. So new dads report depressive symptoms at about twice the rate of men in the general population. And, you know, if you think about what are the risk factors for mom, it's brain changes, hormonal changes, relationship changes, sleep disturbance, wrestling with sense of identity, sense of self. And a lot of those overlap for dads. So they're also experiencing neurobiological change. They're also having their sleep disrupted. They're also grappling with who I am and, you know, am I cut out to be a parent? And dads might also feel this additional kind of breadwinner pressure because we societally expect men to be income earners. And so having a baby can be expensive. And, you know, that can also prompt a lot of stress and worry for dads. So, yeah, the risk factors are there and, and you know, we see it in the data that dads do have this increased prevalence.
[17:28]
B
Does it look different in dads than in moms?
[17:30]
C
Yeah, and that's a really important point because I think postpartum depression often doesn't get recognized in dads because it doesn't show up in exactly the same way. So, you know, instead of crying, instead of tears, we might see irritability, dads withdrawing, dad's not wanting to hold the baby or spend time with the baby. You know, it can even turn into hyper focus at work. So dads are at the office all hours of the night and, you know, aren't as engaged in the new family. Like, those are all ways that depression can manifest that can easily be missed.
[18:13]
A
You know that time in summer when it's about 4pm You've been with your kids all day, you're drained because you're driving them everywhere.
[18:19]
B
You've made snacks 15 times and honestly,
[18:22]
A
you want something around them that just feels like yours.
[18:26]
B
Now this is the part that gets
[18:27]
A
a little serious, but stay with me. That's often a moment when a lot of parents reach for a glass of wine. And this is not a referendum on wine, but so many parents I know tell me I don't even want to have it. I don't like the way it makes me feel in the moment or the next day. But I think what the real need is is that we are looking for something adult.
[18:46]
B
We are looking to hold something that tells us I am not just a caregiver. Setting up a sleep slip and slide
[18:52]
A
and making my 19th meal of the day. And honestly, that's one of my favorite reasons for Element.
[18:59]
B
See, you can use Element as your adult summer drink.
[19:03]
A
It can be just yours, not for the kids. And then it's 4pm and what you might be looking for isn't necessarily alcohol. You might be looking for something that just reminds you of you that you're an adult. You're not only a caregiver and you're allowed to have something of your own.
[19:21]
B
Plus the fact that it's healthy, no sugar, and actually hydrates you is going
[19:25]
A
to take you through the rest of the day and help you stay calmer while it still meets that need. You can check out element@drinkelement.com goodinside that's drinklmnt.com goodinside how do I raise a kid who actually trusts herself? This is one of the questions I hear most from parents because we all want our kids to have a strong sense of self. It's why I'm so excited to partner with Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts gives girls a space that's theirs where they can start community service projects, learn to navigate the outdoors, challenge themselves and make new friends. Girl Scouts meets girls where they are and helps them grow into who they're becoming. And here's what I love as a parent, it's girl led. Adults are there to support, not run the show. So girls make the decisions, solve the problems, and build confidence along the way. In a world that puts a lot of pressure on girls, Girl Scouts is a space where girls can feel joyful and empowered. If you have a daughter in kindergarten through 12th grade, you can visit girlscouts.org to learn more. That's girlscouts.org to learn More.
[20:36]
B
Yeah, and I'm also just thinking that, you know, the withdrawal to an area of life where you feel competent. Right. In some ways gives us insight. I think dads, the dads I talk to, they really want to feel competent at home and they don't. They're like, I don't really know. I feel awkward even holding my baby. I mean, this is the first baby I ever held. Right. Or I don't really know how to diaper. I don't know how to swaddle. Now, let me just put it out there. I know a lot of women too who say, yeah, this is the first baby I held, first baby I diapered, first baby I swaddled. And I'm the one figuring it out a hundred percent, right? But sometimes that withdrawal in the workplace, I just wonder if it's a new dad's way of saying, it's really hard for me to be in an environment where I don't know what to do. And I think if we look at it with that lens, it's a little easier to invite someone in and also to demand, okay, this is our child. We both need to become involved. We both can learn. We both can fumble. We both can do this stuff awkwardly.
[21:37]
C
Yeah, I think that is exactly right. That's such an important point that, you know, it's scary when you're not sure what to do and the stakes feel really high. Like, this is this little baby, and you don't want to make a mistake. And it's also a really important point that you just made that for a lot of parents, the first baby they've held is their own. Because that's just so unique in our human history. You know, like, we evolved in these communities where there was a lot of intergenerational care, there was a lot of community care. Like, we are designed to parent. You know, it's called alloparenting. Like, we are. It's called cooperative breeders. Like, we're supposed to be helping each other out, and instead, we're in these very isolated nuclear families where we just don't give as much experience with baby and child care. And so I think it can be a huge shock for both mom and for dads to just be like, how does this little creature even operate? You know, I don't know what to expect. We don't have that intergenerational wisdom. And I think for men who we really socialize to expect to be good at things, be competent, be making money, you know, be striving and achieving. It is really hard to admit that they're not good at this. And I think you're exactly right. It just needs to be a conversation like, neither of us know what we're doing, and that's why we're gonna practice.
[23:10]
B
Looking back now on what might have been happening with your dad. What was going on for him, you think in that time he was thrust into this role of primary parent for the days he had you, what was going on in his brain? Yeah. What was happening from a neuroscience perspective?
[23:24]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think it was really hard for him at first to just be like, I don't know what I'm doing. I have to suddenly be in charge of all these kids. And then I think through embracing it, he actually started enjoying a lot of it. I write about this in the book, but we had these routines. Every Monday night, we'd go pick out a movie at the video rental store. Every Friday night, we'd go to Friendly's, and we'd get Sundays. He would take us to church on Sundays, and he sang in the choir. So we had these things that we did together as a family. And he wrote me this letter that I got as an adult in which he said, like, the divorce was one of the hardest things I've ever experienced. And the thing that kept me going was being a parent. It was like, the thing that made me want to put one foot in front of the other. And I have to say, like, I was so touched and also surprised because I was like, we were such brats. Like, you know, he's, like, alone in our small town with these kids, but I think he felt like it just gave him this level of meaning and that he ended up loving it.
[24:43]
B
What stands out to me about that is something that I think is really true for anything we really throw ourselves into, which is it always feels hard at first. It always feels awkward. It always is met with resistance. Like, you said, you were being brats. I don't know. Or part of you was also adjusting to this divorce and also adjusting to, like, hey, you've always been in the study. Like, I don't really know this guy. Who is he? Is this guy gonna stay? Are you always gonna be patient? Are you always gonna be involved? Are you gonna go back and retreat? We all have reactions to new things. And I think about the father listening, who feels hopeful, like, okay, it's not too late. Darby's dad kind of changed it. Okay. The awkwardness maybe isn't a sign I'm doing it wrong. Maybe it's a sign I'm doing it now, and that's how, you know, new things feel. And I just think all of those signs, the pushback, the. Ugh, this is hard. Oh, this feels awkward. I think to know that that is all part of a journey that leads to what your dad said. Like, this is actually what led me to keep going. This is what became the most meaningful part of my life. I just think about how hopeful that is for the dad listening.
[25:50]
C
Yeah, I love the way you put that. And it's like, men can do hard things, right? Like, we grow when we do hard things. And I think it's. It's when you're sort of brave enough to try doing something that's scary, that feels daunting, that you kind of reap the greatest rewards. And I think when people feel like they're parenting and they're really giving their best, there's an honor in that, and there's a pride in that that I think we can celebrate for both moms and for dads. Like, I think we. We on. We undervalue, I think a lot of, like, the hard work that goes into parenting and the stress that parents are under. And I think if you think about parents as, like, our most precious natural resource. Right. Like, is there anything more important than raising the next generation of humans? It's like, this is what life is about more than make money or having the perfect body fat percentage or, you know, anything else that we can strive to do.
[26:55]
B
This is legacy, right?
[26:57]
C
Yeah. It's literally building the future. Yeah.
[27:00]
B
What else do you want to leave a dad with? A dad who's listening? Oh, my brain changes, too. Oh, that's why things feel awkward. Oh, I can also lean in and learn these skills. What else do you want to say to him?
[27:10]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think building confidence through practice, through repetition is, you know, the project of parenting. And it's also kind of just the project of growing as a person when we tackle any new challenge. And you know, what the research shows us is there's nothing about motherhood that means you're innately wired to care. It's like, we don't just have a maternal brain. We have a parental brain, and men can build that, too. And, you know, not every man is going to be the world's greatest dad. But what makes us human is that we have this capacity to care and to be flexible and to be adaptive and to build brains that, you know, fit to match the challenges that we're undertaking. So, you know, I think if dads are feeling nervous or uncertain or like they're not good at it, then, you know, the best thing they can do is try.
[28:10]
B
And.
[28:11]
C
And it's actually in the trying that you kind of show up. And I think your kids can see how hard you're trying, and that's what they're going to remember more than you being a perfect parent. Right. Like, there's no such thing as a perfect mother or a perfect father.
[28:26]
B
There's never met them. Never met them.
[28:28]
C
They don't exist. And there's just the parent that tries, and there's the parent that shows up. There was the parent that is consistent. And I think that's what really counts for kids.
[28:39]
B
I want to end with some rapid fire. You ready?
[28:42]
C
Yeah.
[28:43]
B
Okay.
[28:43]
A
What is something you wish someone had said to your dad when he was
[28:47]
B
in the thick of adjusting to solo parenting?
[28:50]
C
Oh, wow. I mean, I think just like, keep going. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. And also when your kids sleep late and don't wake up for church because they watch too much tv, maybe don't unplug the TV and throw it out the window. Although that did work. I did stop watching TV after the TV went out the window.
[29:10]
B
Short term effective, maybe not. You know, the best long term impact. Right. These are the hard decisions we have. Okay. What do you think is, I don't know, a mistake or a misreading or a misunderstanding we make about new dads?
[29:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think when we see the dads are withdrawn or they're not participating fully, I think we can. We can sort of assume that they are. They're bad dads or that they don't care. And you and I have talked about this already a little bit, but it might not be that they're bad people or that they don't care, that they don't want to be there for their kids. It could just be that they're helpless and they're confused and they're not sure where to start. So I think, like, extending grace and compassion, then of course, like, you know, and men also have to extend grace and compassion because their partner is gonna look different and act different from maybe what they're used to.
[30:08]
B
I just like there. You know, I talk a lot about the least generous interpretation we can have of someone's behavior, which is most natural to all of us. Like, you see your partner pulling away. The least generous interpretation is they don't care. They don't even wanna be involved. They don't even. They're not bothered by the fact that I'm doing 99% of the work here. But maybe the MGI, the most generous interpretation is, what if my partner doesn't know where to start and so they feel kind of incompetent. And maybe when they feel incompetent, even predating our marriage, their defense is to kind of pull away.
[30:42]
A
Right. Ooh.
[30:43]
B
Again, it's not about saying it's okay. It's not about permissiveness. But does that framework shift? Would that actually help me intervene in a way that I'm going to be more likely to get what I want? Because I'll probably say something very different, you know, to my partner, whether it's the first interpretation. And I'd pull away myself or say, oh, you don't even care about this child. You don't care about me. Which probably provokes defensiveness. And then I think about the second interpretation. Maybe I'd be more likely to say, hey, this is so new for both of us. I don't know about for you, but I know it can be hard to know where to start with diapering or with learning the schedule or with washing the bottles. Is that going on for you? Because if it is, I think that's very workable between the two of us.
[31:25]
A
Right.
[31:26]
B
Then I could just see that being a lot more productive.
[31:28]
C
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we know the transition to parenthood is such a big risk factor for couple relationship conflict and distress. And I think a lot of it is around these conversations.
[31:42]
B
Okay, last question. What is something fatherhood does for men that we don't talk about or celebrate?
[31:51]
C
Yeah. There is actually this fascinating emerging new research literature suggesting that parenthood can make the brain look younger. So there are these big studies from the UK Biobank. It's this repository of tens of thousands of brain scans taken from people in middle age to late life. And they find that when people have more children, they have markers of a younger looking brain. So if you adjust their brain age from the scans against their chronological age, they actually just look like they have younger brains. It's true for both moms and for dads. So it tells us it's not just about pregnancy hormones. It's not just about birth and breastfeeding. It's really about the experience of having been a parent. It seems to be neuroprotective. And my hunch is it's probably reflecting the social integration that we get, you know, when we're invested in our family relationships. And that can keep us healthier in old age. Wow.
[32:50]
B
Did you hear that, people? You might feel like you're older in every way, but your brain is a little younger.
[33:02]
A
Anything that we do that's new always feels awkward. And I know I said that earlier today, but I really want to end on that because our brain, our body, has a tendency to interpret awkward as wrong or maybe a lot of us, and this is a good moment to reflect, kind of respond to awkwardness with avoidance and withdrawal. That was awkward. So I'm just going to move to a part of my life that feels easier and more natural. Anything we do that's easy or natural is just something we've practiced or probably generations before us practiced. And so if we're going to do anything differently. And maybe a lot of dads would honestly say, being really involved as a father, doing that playtime on the floor, holding my baby, changing diapers, being involved in emotional conversations.
[33:50]
B
Anyone who would say, yeah, I'm probably the first dad in a long lineage
[33:54]
A
to do that, I just want you to know that that awkwardness is not a sign you're doing something wrong. It's a sign you're doing something new,
[34:01]
B
something that every generation after you is going to benefit from. They're going to have the privilege of
[34:07]
A
that feeling natural and normal because you took on that burden of pushing through when it felt awkward. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.