Let’s Talk Bullying With Dr. Sheryl Ziegler

Summary

Good Inside with Dr. Becky: Episode Summary
Let’s Talk Bullying With Dr. Sheryl Ziegler
Date: October 21, 2025
Guests: Dr. Becky Kennedy (Host), Dr. Sheryl Ziegler (Clinical Psychologist)

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Main Theme

This episode takes an honest and nuanced look at children’s experiences with bullying and mean kid behavior. Dr. Becky Kennedy and returning guest Dr. Sheryl Ziegler break down what really counts as bullying versus typical peer conflict, how parents’ own childhood wounds inform their reactions, the impact of digital group dynamics, and – most importantly – what kids need from their caregivers in these moments. The conversation is practical, validating, deeply empathetic, and focused on equipping parents to respond wisely to their children’s social pain.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Bullying vs. Mean Kid Behavior

• Nuance Matters: The conversation opens with Dr. Becky describing how the mere mention of bullying stirs old emotions and brings up childhood memories of exclusion ([00:00]).
• Dr. Ziegler’s Criteria: To differentiate, Dr. Ziegler lays out essential criteria for bullying:
  • Is it repetitive?
  • Is the behavior intentional and aimed at establishing dominance?
  • Does it involve a power imbalance? ([02:25])
• Overuse of the Term: Both emphasize that “bullying” is often overused by kids and adults, leading to confusing responses ([02:25]-[03:18]).
• Scenario Game: Examples given to illustrate:
  • Not being allowed to play a game once = mean ([03:32])
  • Being repeatedly called names = potentially bullying, especially if targeted and frequent ([03:54]).

2. The Parent Experience: Old Wounds and Triggers

• Personal History’s Influence: Dr. Ziegler notes how parents' reactions are often colored by their own past experiences with exclusion or bullying ([05:43]).

  “Old wounds... Most of us have stories from our childhood that stay with us. We never forget.” – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([05:43])

• Emotional Intensity: Dr. Becky highlights how parents may respond more intensely than their children due to unprocessed pain from childhood ([07:14]).

  “Is this about my son? Is this about my daughter? Or is this something about what happened to me in fourth grade?” – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([07:14])

• Patterns Across Generations: There is discussion about how older generations often minimized bullying, viewing it as a rite of passage – a view that’s less accepted today ([07:05]-[11:01]).
• Middle School Reality: Bullying peaks in middle school, just as kids begin to separate from their parents, making it even harder to navigate ([11:01]).

3. Recognizing the Signs: What If Your Child Doesn’t Tell You?

• Subtle Clues: As kids get older, they often stop directly reporting social hurts. Parents should look for:
  • Unfinished lunches
  • Chronic stomachaches or headaches, especially in the mornings
  • Sudden academic changes, absences, or school avoidance ([14:54]-[17:44])
• Bodily Reactions as Communication: A child’s recurring stomachaches might be their body’s way of expressing social anxiety or distress ([15:34], [16:50]).
• Switching Modes: Dr. Becky encourages parents to shift from “efficiency mode” to “curiosity mode” when faced with these complaints ([18:33], [20:43]).

  “When you shift a little to, like, relationship or connection mode, your kid saying ‘my stomach hurts every morning’ becomes kind of a way you can pique your curiosity." – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([18:33])

4. The Digital Amplification of Bullying and Exclusion

• More Platforms, More Pain: In today’s digital era, group chats and social media create a “megaphone effect,” amplifying the reach and impact of mean behavior ([23:13], [24:19]).

  “It would be like somebody getting on a speaker when you were left out and telling the whole world this was happening to you on the bus.” – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([23:36])

• Relentlessness: Unlike in past generations, kids no longer get a break from bullying at home due to constant online connectivity ([25:02]).
• Exclusion Online: Being removed from group chats is a new form of social pain, often as hurtful as being actively targeted ([25:29]-[27:06]).

  “Being kicked out is almost as bad or worse because now I don’t even know what is being said and what's being planned. And now I'm out.” – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([26:20])

5. What Kids Need From Parents: The Middle Path

• Finding the Middle Ground: Parents can’t fully protect kids from peer pain, nor should they minimize or overreact. Instead, become a trustworthy coach and teammate ([29:06]-[30:46]).

• Proactive Relationship Building:

  • Reflect on your own middle school experiences to better empathize.
  • Normalize the struggles of fitting in with your child ([30:46]).
  • “Therapeutic gossip” – make casual but honest comments about your own social hurts, even if your child seems uninterested (“just pick it up if you want, leave it if you want”) ([33:48]).

• Receiving Your Child’s Pain:

  • When your child shares exclusion, start with empathy and validation. Avoid rushing to fix the problem ([34:36]-[35:42]).
  • Less is more: Pause, let your child take the lead, and only strategize later, if needed.

  “There’s a less is more… If I went home to my husband, and I was like, oh, I had this really bad day… If my husband’s first reaction was, like, well, I’m gonna call those people, I'd be like, whoa.” – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([35:13])

6. Intervening When It’s Truly Bullying or a Safety Issue

• When to Act: If exclusion is chronic and targeted, it's a safety issue. Let your child know non-negotiably that you must help ("I love you enough to be brave to know that we have to do something about it" [38:43]).
• Bring Kids Into the Process: Reassure their fears about making it worse, involve them in any plans to contact the school or other adults, and check in step-by-step.

  “Let’s do this together. I promise I won’t make a call... without talking about it with you. We’re going to do this together.” – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([39:37])

7. Roleplay: Practicing the Conversation

• Sample Script ([41:34]):
  • Child: “I had the worst recess today. I wanted to play basketball, they said ‘you can’t play with us, you’re short.’”
  • Parent: “Oh, I’m so sorry, buddy. That must have been so hurtful.”
  • Pause and do not move to fixing, only validate.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• On the Power of Bullying as a Word:

  “To me, the word Bullying is so serious that I wanna make sure we’re on the same page.”
  – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([02:35])

• On Parental Triggers:

  “We want to protect them from that pain that we felt that was unprocessed.”
  – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([10:14])

• On Chronic Stomachaches:

  “Feelings live in our body. There’s a lot of adults who, when they’re really nervous... No, they end up saying, ‘Oh, I had a lot of traffic, I missed it.’ Or they end up acting it out at work... Our body can act things out.”
  – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([15:56])

• On Eye-Rolling as Compromise:

  “Eye rolling is a kid’s version of compromise; it’s a way of saying, I actually think what you’re saying is important, but I’m my own person, so I’m not gonna fully take it in.”
  – Dr. Becky Kennedy ([33:35])

• On Parental Responses to Exclusion:

  “Even if inside… you can feel your heart palpitating? I feel my heart, like, breaking sort of. Sometimes when my kids tell me things. I act calm, engaged, present, stop what I'm doing… Validate it. And then... pause.”
  – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([36:04])

• On Taking Action Together:

  “I promise I won’t make a call or I won’t send an email or anything without talking about it with you. We’re going to do this together. But this is now a safety issue, and it’s my job to keep you safe.”
  – Dr. Sheryl Ziegler ([39:37])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bullying vs. Mean Kid Behavior – Definitions: [02:25]-[04:28]
• Parental Triggers and Reactions: [05:43]-[12:28]
• Spotting Non-Verbal Signs of Distress: [14:54]-[17:44]
• Digital Amplification of Bullying: [23:13]-[27:06]
• Finding Parental Middle Ground: [29:06]-[31:58]
• Empathy in Moment of Exclusion: [34:36]-[37:49]
• Intervention When Bullying is Confirmed: [38:43]-[40:00]
• Roleplay Example: [41:34]

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Practical Takeaways for Parents

• Pause before reacting—validate, empathize, then strategize later.
• Notice nonverbal cues: physical complaints and school avoidance may signal social struggles.
• Share your own (age-appropriate) struggles with friendships to build connection and trust.
• If bullying is confirmed, calmly involve your child in every step you plan to take.
• Avoid both extremes: neither minimizing nor overreacting serves your child best.
• Digital group dynamics (chats, social media) can be as hurtful as in-person exclusion and require new forms of parental attention.

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Summary Tone

The episode feels steady, deeply compassionate, and realistically optimistic. Dr. Becky and Dr. Ziegler balance validation, candor, and actionable advice in a way that is both reassuring and empowering for parents navigating the complexities of social pain in childhood.

Transcript

[A]

Bullying. I mean this. Just saying that word makes my whole stomach drop. And it also makes me have this entire replay of my childhood and every single situation when I felt left out and just didn't have that connected, belonging feeling I was looking for. And at the same time, we know feeling left out is a part of childhood. So what do we do when our kid's left out? What do we do when our kid has other kids who are mean to them? And. And is there a difference between kids that are mean, feeling left out and bullying? And do we do different things in different scenarios? This is such an important conversation and I am so excited to have Dr. Cheryl Ziegler back on the podcast to explore all of these issues together. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. As soon as one of my kids sneezes, I know it's only a matter of days before the whole house is feeling under the weather. With kids at school, they seem to bring home every sniffle and sneeze imaginable. And I've accepted it is just part of parenting. What I don't accept anymore, the frantic 11pm pharmacy runs when everyone's already miserable and all we have is a half used bottle of who knows what from who knows when in the pantry now, I make sure to stock up ahead of time and I always look for Mommy's Bliss. They've been making safe, gentle wellness solutions like their organic baby and cough syrups for more than 25 years. That means an ingredient list you can actually understand. No high fructose corn syrup, no dyes, no artificial sweeteners, and free from the top nine allergens. Their pain and fever medicine is also a staple. It's the first ever Clean Label project certified acetaminophen and it's safe for infants. Find Mommy's Bliss in store and online at major retailers. Your future self will. Thank you. So I wanna talk about bullying. This is a hot topic. I get asked about it all the time. I know you do too. And there's so many different areas around it I wanna explore, but maybe we could just riff a little when you hear the word bullying, let's go. Like scenario, scenario. What kind of situations come to mind that are kind of under that umbrella? What do you hear about?

[B]

Well, when someone asks me about it, the first thing I ask is let's figure out if this is bullying or mean kid behavior. Because that's a big difference. And I think kids overuse the word bullying too.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to me, the word Bullying is so serious that I wanna make sure we're on the same page. So what I'm looking for is, is it repetitive? Was it one time somebody was mean to you or are they doing this often? The big thing is that, are they doing the mean thing because they want to feel powerful over you, they wanna have power over you, they wanna make you feel smaller, they wanna be dominant over you. And is it intentional? Do you know for sure that they're doing this on purpose? Or did you not get invited to the sleepover because you're not that close and they didn't think of you that way? Or they only had two or three people over? So that's the first place I start is I really wanna make sure we know what we're talking about because it's kinda two different paths.

[A]

Okay, so then maybe we do this. We're gonna start with a little game. I'm gonna name scenarios and you're gonna have incomplete information. So I know we both like nuance, but let's just play around and give me your instinct. Like I think this is mean kid behavior or this is bullying.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Okay. My kid comes home and just said, they said I couldn't play foursquare with them today.

[B]

Mean, Mean.

[A]

Okay. Someone was saying I'm a loser on the group chat.

[B]

I'd have to ask some follow up questions. How often? Right. I'd have to know how often. One time.

[A]

One time.

[B]

Mean.

[A]

Okay. They don't want me to play soccer because I'm really not very good at soccer. In an intense game of soccer. Mean this one kid tends to pick me out every day at recess and tell me that I have no friends.

[B]

Probably bullying or borderlining on bullying. And why? Because you said every day. And intentionality picks me out. Right. So then the third aspect that I would follow up on is like, why do you think you. Why you? Right. And that would be like the third piece that I'd need to know.

[A]

Interesting. So, and I do think I'm hearing what you're saying. And I'll have parents come and say something to me like my kid is being bullied. And the reason I think the label matters is if the label and I probably say this is true of any label. If a label activates us and makes us as a parent kind of lose touch with a grounded, wise mind, that sturdy leader we all have, it's probably not that useful because whether your kid is having mean kid behavior or is being bullied, they probably need something from you. Right. And so I think that's really important, which is, you know, noticing what comes up for you as a parent when your kid tells you, I was left out on one end of the spectrum one time, or, oh, a kid is targeting me every day at recess on the other end of the spectrum. I actually think that's a really important starting point. So curious what you see talking to parents, what we're gonna get to the kid stuff. But what tends to come up for parents when they hear or see evidence of either their kid being left out, their kid having mean kid behavior, or their kid being kind of repeatedly targeted?

[B]

Old wounds say more. This is one of those things that it doesn't matter where you grew up, how long ago that was, whatever your experience was. Most of us have stories from our childhood that they stay with us. We never forget. One time somebody said, you know, you have chicken legs. You never forget it. Thirty years later, you don't forget. Somebody said, you know, your hair is stupid. You don't forget it. You don't forget even the mean things. Right. And then we also, though, have. I mean, some numbers are like one in three people reporting female. So that means you have a lot of parents walking around the world. Probably this was not addressed. It could have been physical and verbal, and they just kind of had to deal with it. If you watch movies, old movies, the kid being bullied is almost a rite of passage in childhood, especially for boys. Although, interestingly, today, boys and girls are equally bullied. But in the past, we have. Right. We have movie after movie where sort of the schoolyard bus stop, boys getting physically beat up. And it's a rite of passage. It's kind of like, get home, dust it off. Parents weren't very concerned. They said, clean up and come sit down for dinner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that was reflective of the times. So then, therefore, it's reflective of the stories we come into parenting with.

[A]

And one thing I want to double click on there that's really interesting is I think about parents I've worked with, when they come to me around is my kid being bullied. My kid's being really left out. And some of the deeper themes we explore, and it really is so often one of the things you're describing where we do end up getting into. These kids picked on me on the bus. I wasn't. Even though I was in fifth grade, and the fifth graders sit on the back of the bus, the fifth graders in the back of the bus always made me sit in the front of the bus. And I'd come home and it was always like, who cares? Moving on. And one of these things, I think that can happen. Is anyone listening right now? If you think back on your childhood and you think about some version of I wasn't allowed to sit in the back of the bus or these kids were mean to me, that pain is so real, okay? Whether it's mean kid behavior or bullying, just for right now, that pain is so real and so intense, especially in a time of your life when peers mean so much. And if you grew up in a family that kind of poo pooed it, or it's just like this is a rite of passage. I think something important to know is when you hear about your kid struggling with mean kid behavior, you might be triggered to react to your kid and almost kind of solve the problem so rapidly and quickly, maybe even in a more intense way than your kid felt it. In part because to some degree we're saying to our past, like, I am also defending the fifth grader who wasn't allowed to sit in the back of the bus and nobody heard me out and nobody believed me. And I think those old wounds and triggers where I know for me with my kids, there's been moments of, is this about my son? Is this about my daughter? Is this something about what happened to me in fourth grade when my friends weren't nice to me in this situation? And how much of what my kid needs am I able to see versus how much is that colored by something that almost has nothing to do with my kids?

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, I sit across from people who will tell the story and sometimes they do have that insight and they'll say, I have to tell you, I'm more fired up than ever about this particular story, you know, or this kid that continues to just harass my kid and they'll get tears in their eyes. And I don't get tears in my eyes that often, but this one gets me too. Because to see the adult, right, the 35 year old mom, the 40 year old dad, and I will tell you, dads get to tears just as quickly and see tears in their eyes. And I'm like, I know right now in this moment, you are literally 10 years old. Yes, yes, you are 10 years old. And now you feel bigger, stronger, more confident and you want to come in and defend your kid. We want to protect them from that pain that we felt that was unprocessed.

[A]

The pain that was unprocessed and maybe was invalidated and ignored. Right. And I think one of the things I see all the time Is there's a lot between invalidation and minimization on one end of the spectrum and kind of rushing to fix everything on the other end of the spectrum. Of course, there's moments with peer bullying where you've got to call the school, you've got to intervene. That is definitely needed. But definitely in some of these more nuanced mean kid moments, there might be something more in the moment that more in the middle that your kid needs, that if we're not aware of how that stuff was processed for ourselves, we might not be able to get to that middle ground. Because again, we're kind of responding to what we felt we needed, not to the situation our kid's describing.

[B]

Yes. And then throw on top of it that bullying peaks in middle school. So now you've got a 12, 13, 14 year old that is individuating from you and. Yeah, right. So first of all, is it safe to tell you this? What are you gonna do if I tell you this thing? Second of all, is it okay for you to get involved? Aren't I like a big boy, a big girl now? I'm supposed to do this on my own? Why do I need you? And do you even know what you're talking about? Right. And so it's actually peaking at a time where the kid is like, wait, I'm actually stepping away from you? You don't even know all my friends anymore. Maybe when I was in second grade when someone was mean to me, you called their mom.

[A]

Right. You might not even know who their mom is at this point.

[B]

You don't know who their parent is.

[A]

So true.

[B]

Again, you don't know all their teachers, if they go, if they transition to a middle school. You don't know their world, really.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had a mom just say to me the other day, I don't even know what the cafeteria looks like in my kid's school because he's a sixth grader. She's never been in it. So these things are happening, peaking actually during a time where they are separating from you and like you said, caring so much more about what their friends think. And so what do they do? Do they go to you? And then as the parent, how do you manage that? When do you take the break as a parent to say, hold on, is this about me? What's my unresolved stuff?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so I think when parents do take the time, though, to do that, they feel emotions they haven't felt in so long. They were living in there, they just didn't feel them. They bring them to that consciousness and it can be really emotionally overwhelming.

[A]

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[B]

Oh yeah, I think some things, I mean it's kind of by age, but I'll try to make it like middle ish, like tweens type of behavior. Right. Because younger kids are more likely to say so and so didn't sit with me today. So and so said I wasn't allowed to play groundies. Like the younger kids are more likely and they don't know that they're reporting something, they're just telling you. But once they start to become a little bit more aware of social dynamics, you're going to look for things like the lunch comes back, it wasn't even touched. Like, full lunch. Like, buddy, what's going on here? You didn't even touch your lunch today. Right. There's a lot of reasons why that happens. They are saying they have a stomachache in the morning, they don't wanna go.

[A]

To school and just double click on that. What might that be? A kid's body's way of saying?

[B]

Yeah, it's that fight, flight or freeze. Like, it's scary there, it feels dangerous to me there, so I wanna flee from that. Yeah, I don't wanna go there. And then it manifests in your stomach or your headache.

[A]

And I know it's so easy to get into a cycle of like, you're fine, like, oh, come on, you have a stomachache again. And it almost can feel when we're in the rushing mindset of, like, I've just gotta get my kid out of the house and I have so much to do. It can feel like your kid is trying to trick you or play you. And I think this is so important. Feelings live in our body. And there's a lot of adults who, when they're really nervous about going to a dentist, they don't say it to their partner. I'm feeling a little hesitant. I really am. No, they end up saying, oh, I had a lot of traffic, I missed it. Or they end up acting it out at work. Right. Our body can act things out. So noticing your kids kind of relatively chronic stomach aches before school is just so powerful for parents to know. That could be my kid's way of communicating their feelings. That's not them lying to me.

[B]

Yes. And I am with you. I think it's so hard for parents that are like, they'll call and they'll be like, this is three mornings in a row now. They were fine the night before, and all of a sudden they wake up, they've got this stomachache, conveniently five minutes before we're supposed to be heading out of the house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they're angry now. They're triggered, they're activated. And like you said, we as adults wake up with a plan and a routine. Right. We do this at 7:05, we're out the door at 7:15, whatever. So I really want to emphasize, though, that when we look at bullying, as is defined by bullying, one of the top two unintended consequences are Poor academic functioning, increased absenteeism. So when I say that you're going to look for your kids, grades are going down, they don't want to do their homework, they don't care anymore about studying, and they're going to start missing more school.

[A]

And so if we think about the place of school as being a place that no longer feels safe, you think about it from that perspective, it makes sense that a kid would want to avoid engaging in that place or being at that place. And I think when you think about it that way, it's less likely to feel like an affront or like a trick. And if you think, okay, well, if there was a place I was supposed to go to every day and I actually didn't feel safe there, I would also come up with a lot of reasons to avoid it because I felt like I was just trying to protect myself. Right. And I think when we see it that way, we soften like, oh, okay, now I can enter into a different conversation with my kid.

[B]

Absolutely. And think about it. Even to add onto what you said, I don't feel safe there. But the people that are supposed to be in charge of loving me and keeping me safe, my parents are telling me, it's okay, I have to go there and you have to go.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah. You know, as you were saying that, I was, like, getting into my mind around who are the parents that actually do tolerate that pretty well? And you know who it is? It's the parents who go, I remember going through a stage. I had a stomachache every day. I remember going through a stage where I didn't go to school for, like, a whole week. So important. If you can relate to it as a parent, you see it more easily sometimes or a lot of times in your kids. Not all the time. But when it comes to this particular issue, there's something like a bell goes off. Maybe not day one, but day three, day four, where you go, oh. Or if you talk to your parents, if they're still alive and you still have a relationship, and you say, oh, my gosh, you know, Ava, she's had a headache or a stomachache every morning. And sometimes it's a grandparent who says, oh, honey, you went through that too. Do you remember those girls? They were being so mean to you at the bus stop. And we eventually we figured out, and then the bell goes off. And then sometimes parents feel guilty, and we don't need to feel guilty. It's data. It's information.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it helps us to drop in. So if you have that experience, you're probably likely to resonate. If you don't have that experience, you're right. Inefficiency mode. How do we tolerate when your kid's like, I can't do it, and they might just flop on the ground like, they're not going.

[A]

Yes. And I wanna actually give anyone listening a moment to just pause. Like, really thinking back decades ago to days that you didn't want to go to school, to a lunchroom you didn't want to go to because maybe you didn't have a place to sit or the group you had to walk by. Tend to kind of make some snarky comment. It's so easy, I think, as we get older to think like, that wasn't that big of a deal. When you're in that moment, it is the biggest deal. And I actually think our own memories convince us of that. And so just allowing yourself to time travel and remember the stomach aches you had before school or the lunchroom you avoided or the recess where your heart was racing and you were kind of counting down the minutes.

[B]

The bus stop and the bus ride.

[A]

Bus stop and the bus ride. Yeah. You know, our kids world might be much more digitized than ours was, but the feelings are kind of remarkably consistent. Right.

[B]

And like what we just said, like those places are still places today. And there's also online.

[A]

Yes, right. There's just more of them.

[B]

There's more of them. And sometimes the online part is the part that you're like, I can't escape it. But mom, you don't understand. They're saying these terrible things in this group chat about me. They passed around this picture on Snapchat of me or they put together, you know, some AI deep fake of me and it's going around and I can't escape it at school and I can't escape it at home.

[A]

You know, it makes me think that experiences of bullying or mean kid behavior, either way, none of it is new in 2025. But the way it has a megaphone now is completely new. That's what it is. It's like your worst, most embarrassing, ashamed, alone moment that did happen when you, quote, weren't allowed to sit on the back of the bus now is passed around online for a million people, even outside of your school to see. I mean, the megaphone impact of that, it would be like somebody getting on a speaker when you were left out and telling the whole world that this was happening to you on the bus. I mean, it really is so visceral when you think about it that way.

[B]

It really is. And it's the fastest growing place where this kind of bullying intimidation is kind of happening. And what happens is these kids used to be able to come home. And like again, for some reason I picture, yeah, like I picture this old movie, right, where the kid's running away from the bullies and then he gets in the house and he slams the door and it's like, ah. And maybe mom or dad who were in the living room or kitchen, not knowing was even somewhat of a relief, like, oh, hi honey, how was your day? Oh, it was good. And they just. And Then could turn it off or press pause for like 12 hours. And now they absolutely can't.

[A]

So interesting. Where even if you had a parent who knew about it and invalidated wasn't happening live at the same time digitally, it was kind of over. The invalidation definitely didn't feel good, but it wasn't happening in parallel with the activation of your body in real time. It's like this forever bullying being left out script that's happening now.

[B]

That's right. And I want to bring this back. We'll take it to the mean kid part. So now you've got some mean kid stuff and online. And this is what I want parents to understand. I remember it was a couple years ago, I did a segment called, like, group chats are the new mean kid circles to hang out in. So I want them to understand that let's say there's a night and nobody is saying anything mean to you or nothing's happening on a group chat. What that actually means is you've probably been kicked out. And so I want parents to understand that being in there is so repetitively demoralizing. You know, it's just. It's an awful feeling. But being kicked out is almost as bad or worse because now I don't even know what is being said and what's being planned. And now I'm out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know who my friends are. I don't know who to trust.

[A]

Is it like no longer having a seat at the table? At the table.

[B]

Right. Just like someone takes their butt and slides you right off that little bench that you used to sit on and it's like there's no room for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have to be way across the room and you don't know what we're talking about. And we're laughing and we're whispering. We're doing all sorts of things.

[A]

And I think that's right where if you think about it as a lunch table, you might not even love being at the table. You might not find the conversation terribly enticing. But I think we all know what happens when you're in a corner looking at the lunch table you were previously invited to sit at and watching them all talk to each other and just again, how painful and real that is. But now it's digital and you're just completely alone in the dark.

[B]

Completely with what it feels like. No one in your corner. Right. And to your point, the seat at the table. Right. The seat at the metaphorical or literal table. It's like for a kid who's like, let's say in sixth grade, they're 12 years old. Well, at least I got a seat. And to the outside world, like, I've got 10 kids I'm sitting with and I'm eating, even if I don't say one word. But I'm monitoring what they're talking about. I know that they're being mean or they're not being mean, or they're talking about what they did over the weekend. And so you're at least one toe in which for lots of kids feels so much better than you're out. You're out.

[A]

You know, at good inside. We talk a lot about what it means to feel connected to our kids, to our partners, to our friends, especially in those everyday moments that make us feel supported. That's actually why I love using Zell. It's not just about sending money. It's about showing up for the people who matter most. Like when a friend buys pizza for the kids after soccer practice and you want to chip in, or when your sister spots you for a birthday gift and you can pay, pay her back right away. Zelle is an easy way to send and receive money directly between enrolled bank accounts. But more than that, it's about little moments when you say, I've got you. Look for it in your banking app, and when it counts, send money with Zelle. So a couple things this makes me think about practically. I think it's so easy to hear this. And we all think as parents, like, how do I protect my kids from these situations? Right. And there's definitely things we can do over time that just help our kids build confidence, which in some ways is the most important thing to withstand tricky peer moments. But I think one of the things also that's realistic, I'm curious if you agree, is we can't fully protect our kids from experience. Like, they're gonna happen. It's like turbulence on a plane. Like, you're never gonna have a turbulence free kind of flight.

[B]

Right, Right. And I think this is where I see a lot of deviation in how parents view it. Some are like, hey, you know, this is part of growing up. I went through it, they're gonna go through it. And so there's that, and then there's some who are like, no, I need to protect my kid. They're sensitive or they can't handle this the way maybe other kids can. And like you said, and then there's gray in the middle. So we also are parenting a generation of kids pretty differently around this issue. And I think that is problematic because everything from the definition to when to get school involved, when not to when to be involved, it really varies so much.

[A]

And I guess my perspective on that is very similar to other extremes I see. I personally don't find either extreme helpful. Look, my kid's gonna go through this. I went through this. I'm fine. I don't think that's helpful. Because the truth is, we probably needed something different than what we received in those moments. And again, because these moments have a megaphone now, and the way they didn't, our kids have more needs. But the other end of the spectrum also doesn't feel that helpful. We can't fully protect our kids from these things. The best thing I think we can do is something in the middle, which is, how can I establish myself as a parent who's gonna know about these things, who can be supportive to my kid, who can really be a coach and a teammate to help my kid through these situations? And so I guess one of my questions to you is, are there things we do proactively as a parent, forget just in the moment of mean kid behavior or bullying, that help us establish ourselves as the kind of parent our kid would come to in these situations?

[B]

I do. I think one of the things that a parent can do proactively is to think to yourself, take 10 minutes out of your day. What was middle school like for me? Who were my friends, who was nice to me, who was mean to me, who was a special person in my life? How did I deal with things? Because. And I want you to. And I'm specifically saying think of middle school, because some of these things we're talking about are starting in third grade. So no matter how old your kid is, I still want you. Because probably. I know when I think back to third grade, I can think of times I'm sure my feelings were hurt, but the big stuff wasn't happening then. So I think. Think back to that moment. And I've done this myself, which has been a really interesting process. And what was I going through? What was I thinking and feeling? What were my insecurities? All those things. And then approach your kid right, in a way that just says, you know, I'm just. I'm here for you. There's some things that haven't changed probably since, you know, I was kind of your age. And yes, I know we say, oh, kids don't want to hear that, but they actually do. Yeah. They want to know that we can relate.

[A]

They do. And it just. It's making me think that Saying to your kids, first of all, the starter sentence. I have to tell you about something I was randomly thinking about. I want to tell you something that just came up in my mind. Just qualified. It's so random. So your kid knows. I'm just pontificating. I want to tell you something I was randomly thinking about. There were so many times when I was probably right about your age that I felt so left out, like, and those moments were so painful and so hard and just putting out there. If anything like that has ever happened to you or does, you could totally talk to me about it and just. I want to hear your response. But the first thing I want to say to qualify is if I say something like that to my own kid, I just want everyone to know my kid will never say back to me in the moment. I really needed to hear that. Thank you for laying the foundation for open communication. No, my kid will roll their eyes and be like, you're so weird. And like, can you just get me pretzels? This conversation is over. Cringe. Okay. But we take our kids reactions so literally. I'm never put off by eye rolling. I don't know if I've said this to you, but I think eye rolling is a kid's version of compromise. That rolling their eyes is a way of saying, I actually think what you're saying is important, but I'm my own person, so I'm not gonna fully take it in. I have to roll my eyes to kind of push it out. And when you turn it turn around, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take it, but I'm not gonna let you know. So every time I get an eye roll, it's funny. Patrick. Oh, how do you put up with that? I'm like, no, that is like, a huge win in my book.

[B]

I agree with you. An eye roll is like a concession.

[A]

100% a compromise.

[B]

Exactly. All right, so I'll hear what you have to say. I'm not gonna tell you that it'.

[A]

It is, but do you think that would be helpful? Just put out there every once in a while?

[B]

Totally. When you said that, it reminds me of, like, there's a term that we learn when we're learning how to counsel people, right? Therapeutic gossip. Remember that? So it's like, that's how I think of it. I think of, like, myself. I can picture myself in the kitchen and I just say things out loud. Therapeutic gossip means you're, like, talking out loud. Like, oh, my gosh, I remember. Or this memory just popped up for me. So Good.

[A]

Pick it up if you want. Leave it if you want. And the chances are our kid's gonna pick it up. Okay, a couple other questions. Cause, look, mean kid behavior, bullying. Let's just go over kind of each situation. I want to get some feedback from you. So my kid comes home, and they say, nobody played with me at recess. And I tried to play with these kids at soccer, but they said, this is a serious soccer game. You're not good. What do you feel like a kid needs from a parent in that moment?

[B]

I mean, right then and there, just dropping into empathy, validation. Like, oh, buddy, I'm so sorry that happened. That must be really, really hard sitting there at recess. They're not letting you play, sorry that happened, and then pause.

[A]

I want to. I want to emphasize that because it's similar to something I would say. Like, there's a less is more. And I think, as a parent, we think it's not enough. Like, do I have to? Do I have. Okay, I'm asking you, do I have to call the school? What do you think? No. No, no, Right? Do I have to call all the parents of the kids?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

And I think it's really helpful for people to hear that, because we're all kind of just looking to feel like good parents, and if we feel like we're not reaching the standard, we're all gonna do more. Right. But it is kind of. If I went home to my husband, and I was like, oh, I had this really bad day, and this meeting was bad. And honestly, these other people presented their work, and it was really good, and mine just wasn't. And if my husband's first reaction was like, well, I'm gonna call those people, and I'd be like, whoa. Like, where are you going? I'm just trying to share my experience.

[B]

It takes you out of your experience too. Like, even the way you were just role playing it, you're down, like. And then her presentation was better, and the second someone comes in to fix it, now you're gonna start defending. Now all of a sudden, you're start defending? No, no, no, no. I mean, it's not that big of a deal.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I'm just telling you.

[A]

Exactly right.

[B]

So never go there. Even if inside, though, again, everything lives in our body. So you can feel your heart palpitating?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I feel my heart, like, breaking sort of. Sometimes when my kids tell me things and it's acting, I act calm, engaged, present, stop what I'm doing. Right. I'm gonna reflect back what they said. I'm gonna Validate it. And then like, in the case of, like. Okay, so tomorrow there's gonna be recess again. Whether it's right now, right? Cause I said pause. You have to pause. I always tell parents, we over talk when we're nervous. Right. So just pause, see what they say. And then at some point, whether it's then or two hours or at bedtime, you say, so you have recess again tomorrow, huh? Yeah. I wonder if you've thought about, like, what are you gonna do?

[A]

Yeah, love that.

[B]

Right. So I'm getting to a plan, but I'm gonna ask them, have you thought of a plan? And is there someone else you could. But I'm not gonna come in with 50 questions, and I'm not gonna come in with my game plan.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I bet you've been thinking about it, or I wonder if you've been thinking about what you'll do tomorrow.

[A]

I love that. And I love just the concrete guidance. Separate those conversations a little bit. Right. Like, drop down. I always picture my kid when they're telling me something hard. I try to picture them saying to me, I'm just looking for you to understand this. They never say that. To be clear. Okay. They just tell me the story. But if you imagine your kid telling you a story, and then as soon as they're done saying, I just want you to understand, and then you respond, I know for me, it helps me embody the idea of less is more, and then wait. And then maybe at night, hey, I wonder if you've thought about it a little more strategic. But I know for me, as an adult, too, someone separating those two things makes me feel so much more secure.

[B]

Absolutely. And then when we get to be adults and we get to practice this a ton, I know for me, sometimes I'll say to either my husband or a friend, I'll say, I'm gonna tell you something that happened today. I don't want you to give me advice, or I don't want you to jump in and start defending me. That's especially for my husband. Right. I just wanna tell you this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I just want you to sit here with me with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. That's pretty advanced, though.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And so I'm even saying that right now just so that if you're listening and you're a husband, you're a partner, you're a spouse, and you're like, oh, yeah, that's me. I'm the fixer or I'm the mama bear.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right. There's times where being the mama bear.

[A]

Or the fixer is just not welcome 100% or needed. So now, now, quickly, let's just cover the other one fast. My kid comes and says, you know, I like this kid's always picking me at recess. You know, it's kind of repeated, it's targeted. What do you feel like a kid needs in that situation? At least as a start.

[B]

So I think you still start off with that validation and you know that space and time and empathy, for sure. And you say, this is a safety issue, and I love you enough to be brave to know that we have to do something about it. Yep. And then pause because they're going to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't call the school. You're only gonna make it worse. And honestly, a lot of times, the way adults handle it can make it worse. So you say. So if you're listening right now and you're like, well, how do I know if it's gonna make it worse or not? Even if they're just giving you that look, you can say, I know that you're probably really scared right now. You're wondering how this is gonna affect things at school. What's gonna happen to the group? I get it. Let's do this together. I promise I won't make a call or I won't send an email or anything without talking about it with you. We're gonna do this together. But this is now a safety issue, and it's my job to keep you safe.

[A]

I love that. And then could throw many of options. We could. Let's start with something. Let's see how that goes. We'll check in. We're on the same team. There's going to be action. Cause it's a safety issue. But that doesn't mean it has to be done totally. With my kid on the side, we could include them in it.

[B]

I think so. I think I always like to say what they know is a lot less scary than what they don't know.

[A]

Yes. Oh, my God.

[B]

I just told you that I'm, like, being bullied at school. And now I think you're gon go crazy. You're going to show up at school tomorrow.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's really scary for a kid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Really scary.

[A]

Do you ever feel like you tend to fall into the same parenting patterns? Oh, I know I'm not supposed to just fix the moments that my kid is upset, but I just want to see them happy. Oh. I end up being harsher in difficult moments than I want to be. Or I cannot believe that I'm actually Doing the thing my parent used to do that I promised myself I wouldn't do. I have good and relieving news for you. Every parent has a pattern. And actually, a lot of our patterns were put in place in a way that is helpful, even if these patterns work against us sometime. This is why we created a brand new free [e-mail] because step one in a parenting journey is just discovering your parenting pattern. I would love for you to check it out and I would love for you to hear the results. People are learning so much about themselves and I don't want you to miss out. So go to goodinside.com better and then share your results with me. Send me a DM or tag me on Instagram. I can't wait to hear about it. All right, your kid comes home and says they were left out at recess, let's roleplay how a conversation could go between you and your kid. I'm going to be the kid, and Dr. Cheryl is going to be the parent. I had the worst recess today.

[B]

Oh, no. What happened?

[A]

Well, I wanted to play basketball. I went up to the group playing basketball. They were just like, you can't play with us. You're short.

[B]

Oh, I'm so sorry, buddy. I must have been so hurtful.

[A]

It was okay, pause. I know what you might be thinking. Okay, and then what do I call the parent? Do I come up with a solution for my kid if they want to play basketball tomorrow? Actually, no. Just pause. At this moment, your kid might ask for a snack or walk away. The most important thing to do is what you've already done. Just essentially say you're able to hear it. You validate. This was hard. And from there, just let your kid take the lead. They might not need anything more than that. Hope that was helpful. And honestly, whenever anyone's learning kind of a new language, seeing it acted out in a roleplay is something that always helps things crystallize. If you're a good inside member, please check out the other two roleplays. I'm going to drop right into membership. One is about when your kid is hanging out with a kid. That is a bad influence, but they just won't stop hanging out with them. And the second one is what happens when you get a call that your kid was mean to another kid and how to handle that conversation. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Hey Good Inside Members, I'm so excited to tell you that Cheryl will be live in the Good Inside community for a private event just with members on Monday, November 3rd. RSVP now to save your spot and if you're not a Good Inside member and want to come to this event, Amazing. Learn more and join oodinside.com.