A (3:34)

Some of the trickiest things that come up over and over, just get, give me one. I want to dive into, like, one story, one example that in your mind, you hear a lot of versions of, around leadership.

B (3:44)

So if you're, if you're, if you're rank and file, it's, my boss doesn't get it. I get that so often. My boss doesn't get it. And what they're talking about is feeling a part of an organization where leadership is driven by numbers, by quarterly results, where all the incentive structures are based on individual performance. People are compensated based on the price of the stock price. And what ends up happening is it leaves the people who have to come to work every day feeling like they're simply a number, that, that human beings who are running the organization don't even view them as fellow human beings in the organization. That is pervasive, absolutely pervasive.

A (4:31)

So when you say these words like they don't get it, I hear a little bit like they don't see me. I, I, they don't. I'm not a person in an organization as much as seen as a number for output. Is that, is that similar?

B (4:46)

Basically, what they're saying is they don't get the stuff that I'm, that I'm talking about and writing about, you know, that and, and, you know, it's embarrassing that I have a career. I talk about trust and, and, and cooperation. There should be no demand for my work. And yet there is demand for the work because people want to come to work and feel like they matter. People want to come to work and feel like somebody sees them as a, as a, as a, as a human being. There's some funny data and I get the exact numbers wrong, but you'll get the idea where the average number of people who are disengaged at work is something like 70 or 80%. Something, something crazy, right? And if somebody gets yelled at for something they did wrong, disengagement goes to something like 40 or 50%. And if somebody gives you one compliment that tells you how great you are or something that you did, well, disengagement goes to something like 20%. The point being. The point being that I think that the thing that I love about that is that getting yelled at actually makes you more engaged than being ignored. Because at least somebody knows that I'm here, right? At least somebody knows that I'm doing something. And I find that absolutely hilarious.

A (5:52)

You know what's interesting, Simon? To connect this to parenting, I, I don't have data to spit back at you, but I have stories of, and a lot of similar stories of someone saying, think back on my childhood and I think back about my soccer games and my football games, my, my dad, my mom never showed up. And I'm not saying I want my friend's parents who basically were yelling at them the whole time, but I would rather that than my parents who didn't show up because at least it was a form of caring. I don't know if that resonates. That's really similar. Now we all want some other version, which was some version of like, I love watching you play and maybe later, hey, I have some feedback if relevant, right? But connection being present, showing in any way that you're invested in someone enough to engage with them and emote with them and talk to them and respond to them in leadership. And parenting seems to be really important.

B (6:53)

Well, I mean, you remember the TV show the Osbournes, right? This semi functional, semi dysfunctional family of, you know, of Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osborne and the kids. And I remember at the time when it was really popular, people were shocked and saying, oh my God, this is terrible that we just see this, this family yelling at each other the whole time and folks like you and parenting experts said, no, no, no, no, they're communicating, they're engaged, they clearly love each other, they clearly care about each other, and that is actually quite good. And they're a very close and tight knit family because they're in it as opposed to everybody just going to their rooms separately and ignoring each other and eating separately and doing everything separately. This is, this is the better model. And I remember reading articles about that. This was the better model.

A (7:35)

You know, I often think with kids, but it is interesting to think about in the workplace. I hadn't made that extension. So you're expanding, expanding my brain where especially little kids that we think about, do I matter? As a question. But I believe there's something so much deeper and existential happening for kids that I wonder if it happens at work too, like being. Do I impact the world? Does anybody see me right? Being a human is very weird, especially with our feelings. Like, is someone responding to me? And I do think little kids, especially when they get upset, when they have feelings, which are so confusing. I tell older kids this too. Feelings don't have a marker. Pain isn't great. But when you skin your knee and you're bleeding, there's something useful about that. You're like, that's real. I see the blood, right? If you're sick and your doctor says, oh, you have the flu, oh, there's a marker. It's real. The way we go about life with our feelings and our ideas are so confusing because there's no blood tests, there's no blood in pain. And so much of what we have is how someone responds to us. So when a parent says, you know, some version of, look, I'm putting off the tv, there's no more tv. And you know me, I'm going to hold that boundary. But when I do say to my kid, I get. You're upset. I don't like people making decisions for me either. I honestly don't love ending screen time either. And I agree watching another show is more fun than cleaning up. You have every right to be upset. I feel like I'm kind of saying even more than you matter. I'm saying, like, all the things going on for you are real. You are real. And I think what you're saying at work is that is so important for people to feel every day.

B (9:10)

Knowing that we matter, I think is, Is a huge part. We want to know that we matter in the world. We want to know that our work matters in the world. And, and, and this is where, like, organizations that are truly purpose driven or vision driven, you can feel like I'm contributing something bigger than myself. I mean, this is the same reason people find connection in, in volunteer work or religion, which is. I feel like I'm a small player in something that really, really matters. It's, it's the. And when you talk about scraping the knee. Where my head goes in those in. That is. Is about accountability. Right. Which is you can't gaslight someone because of their scraped knee. Yes, Right. But when somebody has a feeling, which is a. Which is an intangible thing, and I share accountability in the creation of this wound because I can't see it and it's not diagnosed and there's no. And I can't take a temperature and say, look, you said that and now look what happened to my knee. Right. That it's easy to invalidate people's feelings because I. It's hard. I feel like, I feel like an ass. I feel bad. So to alleviate my own stress, I'll invalidate your feelings.

A (10:30)

Okay, we're gonna play a game with this. You're gonna give me a work example where that happens and then a version where it doesn't happen. And I'm gonna kind of translate that into the parenting world because this is so important at work and in leadership. So where might that happen? Someone's having a feeling, you know, it's not visible. There's no blood tests for it, but it feels real for them.

B (10:48)

So it happens every day in every meeting?

A (10:50)

Yep.

B (10:51)

Right. When somebody expresses concern about a decision.

A (10:58)

Great.

B (10:59)

Right. And somebody will say, instead of saying, tell me more, what's your concern? The knee jerk reaction is, I think you're wrong, Bob, you know, and that's it. The discussion is over. And the person actually wasn't looking to be right. They were looking to getting great. It'd be involved in the conversation.

A (11:20)

And these. And I love what you're pointing to is a moment that a part of our brain can be like, that's a tiny moment, but. But it's the accumulation of these tiny moments that really affect how people feel and then also how productive you can be, the culture, all of that. So this idea of Bob speaks up and is like, I don't know about this decision. And I think what you're saying is, more than anything, I do believe as humans, we are looking to be believed, which doesn't mean we need to make a decision based on someone believing us. Those two things get conflated all the time. If as a manager, I say to Bob, whoa, you're concerned about this? Tell me more about that. Let here. That doesn't mean I have to do what Bob says. A lot of time leaders have many more, much more information. They have a more long term vision. Right. And so I always. Emotional validation for other people doesn't mean allowing those people's Feelings to dictate your decisions. Those are totally separate. Right. And I think it's the exact same with a kid. I'll just go back to the TV example. Oh, you don't want to turn off the tv, right? Oh, what were you. Oh, you were thinking about watching two episodes. I didn't make it clear. It was just one. I get why you're upset. And people are surprised that as I'm saying that I'm still shutting off the tv. Like those are separate things, but it makes all the difference.

B (12:36)

Well, I think it also plays into sort of right and wrong. Me versus you versus we're a team with a common goal, you know, and when somebody speaks up to question a decision, you know, hopefully if their intentions are in the right place, you know that they're trying to say, I care about this company, I care about the direction, I care about the decisions we make. And I'm going to give. I'm going to give a point of view with the hope that it's considered. And when that is discounted and not heard, it's creating me versus you, right versus wrong and sometimes playing up the hierarchy. I'll give you an example that we've embraced in our organization that has been essential to us functioning better as a team and getting rid of this right and wrong. So in the business world, if somebody works really hard, let's say, on their PowerPoint, they spend two weeks working really hard on their PowerPoint and they give the presentation, and at the end of the presentation, the response, the right. At the end they usually go, eh, pretty good, right? Like, validate all my effort, right? Please. That's pretty normal. I did some work with the Air Force and same thing. Somebody spends two weeks working on their PowerPoint, they come into the room, they give their presentation, and at the end of the presentation they go, spears. Spears. They don't ask for validation about how good my work is. They ask the room to offer spears poke holes in my work so that my work can be better. And it is a cultural thing. And so everyone is expected to help each other make each other's work better because we're all in this together. And this idea of spears is so valuable because it does two things. One, it. It communicates. This is a team effort. And two, it's gets people comfortable getting feedback that may be perceived as negative, but really it's about a point of view that I think I can help make your work better. It's love.

A (14:30)

It's love. It sounds like there's two things. Number one, More than anything else, we're all on Team Company. We're all on team Air Force. We're all on Team Company. Our job is to help make the part of that is my own growth. And so I can't. There's no way I can grow without feedback, right? So question, realistically, what do you notice gets in people's way of that actually happening in reality? We know people can feel so deflated by feedback, can feel so. Right. Unmotivated, or maybe they feel like it's a character attack. You've worked with so many people. What have you learned? Actually helps people take feedback as a way to grow instead of seeing it as an attack.

B (15:14)

So there's two. There's two. There's two answers that come to mind. One is. And I'll tell you a story. So I had somebody who worked with me who I wanted to give some feedback to, and it never went well. And I would try different ways, and it just never went well. And. And the problem with feedback is we tend to give feedback the way we like to receive it. So I like it blunt and to the point, and so I tend to give it blunt and to the point, and it doesn't always go well. And I would try and temper, and it just. And we had more than one instance where it ended up as a shouting match, right? And it took us an hour just to, like, get back to baseline, forget about the feedback, right? And at some point, frustrated, I said, I gotta give you feedback. This can't keep happening. This is not fun for either of us. Help me here. I'm stuck. And she said, I just need you to prepare me. That's all. You just. You just start telling me things. And so I just need you to say, can I give you feedback now? And then let me say yes, or let me say, can we schedule it for an hour from now so I can prepare myself? And so now, by me asking permission to give feedback, can I give you some feedback? It sets the other person up that we are jointly into this. There's joint accountability in what's about to happen from that. I simply. And so simply learning what she needed. I could adjust my style very simply, and she could take harsher feedback than almost anybody in the company if. If I set it up in the way that she needed it set up. And so what I've learned since, that is asking permission is a fantastic way to do pretty much everything, especially feedback. And people know what they want, and people know what they need. You know? So, for example, if. If somebody says, can I can, I, can I talk to you? I'm struggling. I can say, do you want me to hold space? Do you want me to listen? Or do you want me to offer a point of view and people can say, no, I want your opinion as opposed to trying to fix something where somebody just needs you to feel heard. And I've had this experience as well where I called somebody up and I was having a bad time of it and I started sort of letting it out and my friend starts fixing everything and I could interrupt and say, hey, thank you. I need, please, I don't want you to fix anything. I just need you to, I just need you to listen to me right now. And the friend could adjust. And so we can tell people what they need, what we need. We can ask people what we need and we can give each other the feedback even in the moment. And it works to adjust. And so, so, so there's two things. One is, as somebody who's a feedback giver, you have to adjust and learn different styles to meet the needs of others. And you don't have to guess. You can ask somebody, how do you like to receive feedback? What do you want? How do I make this go well so that you can hear the stuff that I want to tell you in the way that you want to hear it and then adjust. It's that simple.

A (18:13)

And, and, and to make the lead to parents, you know, I think one of the things you're doing when you say permission to give feedback or you're kind of contracting, you're contracting for the moment, right? Simon? I'm, I move really quickly. I love feedback at all moments, but my speed, I know, can feel really jarring to someone. They're like, I thought you're about to tell me about your weekend and all of a sudden it's like that my nervous system wasn't prepared. So in addition to respecting someone's own process, I do think in the moment you're shoring up the relationship in a micro way. You're kind of saying, are we on the same page? And I do think the same thing is true for parents. Right? And sports come to mind because it's been such a, a topic for so many families where probably after your kid plays a 60 minute basketball game and you've been watching on the sideline, they're exhausted. I don't think a kid wants to hear about their layups or their passing or their decisions when, you know, the game was on the line at all. Right? Just like if I, I don't know. No, One thinks I'm a basketball player. That doesn't sound realistic. I'm barely 5:1. But let's say that was part of my life, and. And I did that. The last thing I want is my husband to be like, hey, Becky, I have notes for you. Like, no, thank you. Right. The other thing I want to say, just directly so parents can make the bridge, is so many times when our kids are upset. I was the only one not invited to this birthday party. Oh, I'm having this situation with my friend on the playground. I think what happens is we really want to be useful as parents. We really do. And I think we. We assume the most way to. The best way to be useful is to give advice. It probably is the least effective way to be useful, but we can hold it as an option. And saying to a kid, even a young kid, hey, before I say anything, first of all, thank you for telling me this. Do you want a hug? Do you want me to say nothing? Do you want to think about what to do next time? And. And again, asking a kid that at a young age, kids will often tell you, oh, I just need to get this out of my system, or, yeah, I just kind of want to hug. And so I love what you're saying, Simon, even for parents, is that you don't have to guess. Like, you can also ask.

B (20:15)

Yeah, I mean, people. People kind of know what they need in the moment, and they can change their minds, too, which is. And it's. And it makes for an easier flow. I mean, my rule is you meet emotion with emotion. You meet facts with facts. Never bring. Bring facts to an emotional gunfight.

A (20:29)

And.

B (20:29)

And my favorite example is I went to see a friend's performance, and he was easily the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. And I wish I could have walked out, because I would have done it twice if I could have. And it was awful. And at the end of the show, I'm in the lobby with the friends and family, you know, and my friend comes out, still in makeup and costume, all jacked up on adrenaline from coming off the stage. She comes running up to me with a big smile on her face, and she says, what'd you think? Now, she knows me to be an honest broker, but the problem is I believe in being honest, and I believe in being honest all the time, but I can't bring facts to this emotional state. She's jacked up on adrenaline and still full of it. Now is not the time or the place. And so I said, it was so amazing. To see you on the stage. True. I've never seen you do your thing before. True. I'm so glad I came to see you all. True. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And she moves on, right? Three days later, I'm on the phone with her, and I said, by the way, did you want me to tell you what I thought of the performance? And she goes, actually, I do want to know what you thought. I said, okay, the lighting sucked, the acting sucked, this sucked, and let me tell you why they suck. And we had a rational conversation, and we. We talked about it, and it was perfectly fine. And she really wanted that. She really wanted that input. But the point is, I had a rational conversation in a rational setting, but you cannot have a rational conversation in an emotional setting. And I know this is true in your world. I mean, like, even in my relationship, you know, I said to my girlfriend, I said, you know, hey, babe, I got to talk to you. You did something this week that made me feel this way. And you did it six times, even when I asked you to stop. And she says to me, well, I actually did it four times. And I said, it doesn't matter how many times you did it. And she said, well, if you're going to complain to me about something, get your facts right. Right? And the answer is no. No, the facts don't matter. What matters is the feelings. And please, can you meet feelings with feelings? Meet facts with facts. And for somebody who's the. The. The. The giver or the receiver of the feedback to be able to evaluate, you know, is this emotional or is this. Is this rational? And my rule is anything to do with ideas or money is always emotional. Every time. Emotions, ideas. Because all ideas are emotional, because we. They're my ideas, right? And so, and so email and things like that are a terrible medium for emotional feedback because it's a rational medium. So, you know, pick an emotional medium, which is pick up the phone, walk into somebody's office, like, hey, do you have a minute? Can I. Can I just respond to your idea that you emailed me? But because things are. Because we don't know how somebody reads something when they're in an emotional state. And so this idea of matching. Matching the environment I found to be essential and invaluable in any kind of. In any kind of feedback mechanism.

A (23:48)

One thing I see over and over with parents is just how much we're carrying the data backs this up. Most parents spend nearly every waking hour focused on someone else. So if you feel exhausted, stretched thin, or like Your brain never really shuts off. That makes complete sense. I've seen how powerful it can be when families have more support. When parents have trusted caregivers, the mental load lightens and they're actually able to be more present, not because they're doing more, but because they're not doing it all alone. Care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background checked caregivers, whether that's support for a newborn before or after school, help or even care for an aging parent. You can search by experience, read reviews, and find support in a way that feels safer and more intentional than social media or word of mouth alone. And do you know that you can find activities, camps and daycare on care.com too? For a limited time, you can use the code Good35 to save 35% on a Care.com Premium membership. Because when you have support, you can show up as your best self for the people who need you. I love the way and you do this often. I feel like it takes tremendous command of something to use the most simple language. So thank you for a perfect example of that. Meet emotion with emotion and facts with facts. So a couple things I want to say and a lot of these I've learned only the hard way. I think that's the only way we learn things. For me, I only learn things the hard way. Number one, people often think emotions are irrational and there's a morality judgment to it. Like it is superior to be rational and logical than to be in your emotion. And something I think is important to consider is like, Spanish isn't ill Mandarin, it's just not Mandarin. Like they're two different languages. There's no moral superiority. And I think for anyone listening who can be honest like we do sometimes place this moral superiority to rational mind and logic. But being in your emotion is just a different source of information. So I think the idea of meeting emotion, emotion and logic with logic is such a beautiful way of saying no. The goal isn't to get someone emotional to be not emotional and be rational. It's just a completely different language. And I think to be successful in adulthood, we simply need both. You need Spanish and Mandarin. You need emotion and logic. The other thing I want to jump on with you though. Meet emotion, emotional logic with logic. Whether it's at work or at home. I hear the parent who's saying, okay, my kid's upset about not being invited somewhere, or my employees upset about not getting a promotion when their colleague did okay, they're having emotions. I don't know how to meet emotion with emotion. Like in my house, emotion was dangerous. It was shut down. I feel like there was this superiority of logic. Emotions were seen as bad and weak. So I'm curious how, I'm sure you see that all the time. What's your take on that? How do you deal with that?

B (26:53)

I mean, what you're talking about is the journey of, of becoming a leader, you know, and, and, and, you know, I make this comparison all the time, which is the choice to become a parent is a lifestyle decision. Having a kid takes 15, 20 minutes, you know, on a good day, max. But raising a kid, that is a, that is a lifestyle decision. You're gonna, you can only travel during holidays. You, you, you're going to lose sleep. You get to feed yourself. Second, you get to spend all your money on somebody who's ungrateful. Like, you know, like that's the decision that you've made to live in a completely different lifestyle. The choice to become a leader is the same thing. It's a lifestyle decision. Like you're. You don't stop being a parent when you go to work, when you leave the house. Well, you don't stop being a leader when you come home and leave the office. Like leadership. This is why people often describe leadership as a lone, as a lonely position, right? And the choice to become a leader is a lifestyle decision. And anybody who chooses the lifestyle of a leader elect like a parent to go on the journey of education. You read books, you read articles, you talk to your friends, you talk to people who are in similar situations. You talk to your own parents, you talk to your own leaders, you talk to your old boss. And what you're doing is understanding that you'll never be the perfect parent, you'll never be the perfect leader, but you will constantly work to improve. And this is the lifestyle of a leader. This is a leadership lifestyle. And so your question about emotion or rational. Any leader worth their salt is on the journey of learning the skills of how to understand emotion, how to manage their own, how to, how to help other people hold space for other people's, how to give and receive feedback, how to listen actively, how to have a difficult conversation, how to have an effective confrontation. This is the lifestyle. This is the lifestyle you have elected. And it's not just about the spreadsheet. It's about leading human beings. And when you choose to lead human beings, when you choose to take care of those in your charge and accept the awesome responsibility of leadership, the responsibility to see those around us rise, no one is naturally equipped with these Skills. Some of us were lucky enough to learn them from a coach or a parent or a teacher that was just good at it and we could model from them, but the rest of us, we've got to learn it. And, and so all of the things you're asking any leader worth their salt should be asking themselves the same thing and doing whatever they need to do to learn those skills, to be a better version of themselves, to be the leader they wish they had.

A (29:32)

Question for you. I feel like more than in the past leaders at companies, it's more acceptable. I have an executive coach. I do stuff with Simon. I have this person. Like I even feel, and I think about founders or CEOs, I know where if they said, oh, I don't have a coach, I don't need that, I feel like everyone would judge them, like now. Like, I'm not saying that was true years ago. It's not true everywhere. But I'm curious, from your perspective, why do you think that's more accepted in work leadership than parenting leadership? Because I hear from parents all the time, what invest in parenting support. Like that would be admitting I'm a failure. Or maybe you do still hear that from leaders in the workplace.

B (30:17)

I think that one of the reasons it's become socially acceptable in the business world, and I hope it becomes socially acceptable in the parenting world, is you had a few very senior people modeled the behavior, you know, and the minute somebody, you know, the minute if this is, hey, I want everybody to get a coach, but the senior people don't get it, then nobody's getting a coach. Right? But if the senior person says, hey, look, do this or don't do this, I have found it to be invaluable. I'm getting a coach. The company makes it available if you want it. We're not going to demand it of anybody. And the, and you see the most senior people do it and maybe even you force the most senior people to do it, which is fine too. But the point is you had a few forward thinking senior people who were very. And they did. The most important is they did it publicly.

A (31:04)

That's right. They don't, they don't hide. They're like, they talk about it.

B (31:08)

So if you had a few courageous parents at a PTA meeting, at a dinner party, when everybody there is a parent, if somebody just confidently announces because it's about, it's not about the action, it's about the confidence, right? Where if you come into, if you're at a dinner party and you're like, Becky, And I decided we needed a coach. It's just not going well. And, like, don't. That's not going to encourage anybody to do anything, right? But if you come to dinner party, be like, oh, my God, it's been a disaster the past few months. And we realize we've run to the limit of our parenting abilities, and we can only learn so much from our parents and friends. So we've actually signed up for a parenting coach. And I gotta tell you, it's been amazing. That conversation amongst the number of couples that will go home that night going, you know, they got a parenting coach. Maybe we should think about it too. And you get the early adopters who will all sign up for it first. And eventually, eventually it'll become a very standard and normal thing for parents to.

A (32:04)

Have a coach that is hopeful. Okay. I want to bring something to you that I wonder about a lot, and I really wanted your opinion on because one of the things I talk about with parents almost more than anything is the power of repair. I always tell people, forget worshiping a perfect parent. We have a saying in our family. We say perfect is creepy. It just has a ring to it. And I think it's true. I do think it's creepy. It's like on human, but it's. It's. It's tricky around. Do I lose my power? I feel like I need my kid to apologize to me first. So many things. How do you see that with leaders? Is that a sticking point, too? In work leadership, do you feel like repair matters? Like, can you just talk to me about that for a little bit?

B (32:45)

Of course repair matters because, like the family, it's like, you're gonna have to show up with each other the next day and the next day and the next day. And so you can either sit in tension forever, which, by the way, affects performance and feels like dirt and it makes you not want to come to work, or you can step into the tension and deal with it. You need at least one person to have done some of the work to learn how to do repair. Ideally, it's great when both people do the work, but you need. You don't need both. You just need at least one. And I think even in relationships, you know, we talk about managing difficulty, but we very rarely teach repair. One of my favorite people is Beavoce. She is out there. Her specialty is only repair because we don't have the skills for repair. And if you want a long, successful relationship, marriage, work, relationship, there's gonna be hurt, there's gonna be accidentally we don't know what triggers people. Sometimes we don't listen, Sometimes we're assholes, sometimes we respond badly, and sometimes we, we. And like, one of my favorite things is it doesn't matter who started it. Like, I remember I was having a fight with someone and the fight went like this. Well, you started it when you did this. Well, actually, you started it when you did this. I don't think that's true. I think you started it. And this is how it's going, right? Which is one of us is looking to blame the other for getting us to where we are now. And I remember interrupting the fight and I said, look, we both have a different point of view of who started this. But here's one thing I know for sure. One of us absolutely started this and the other one absolutely poured gasoline on it. And so whether I started or you started it, what we, what we do know is we are where we are now because of us. And so the question we have is, should we try and get out of this together or do you want to keep going in the same direction?

A (34:44)

And, you know, one of the things I always talk about with couples, I don't know if you've heard this, you probably have, is it's like someone steps on the dance floor and they're like, hey, do you want to do this awful dance we both do where we scream at each other and blame each other? And the other one's like, yes, I would love to. And then you start doing the dance. Whose fault is that? Fault isn't usually that useful. You guys are doing a dance that isn't good for anyone and you're both continuing to do the dance. So whose responsibility is it to stop doing the dance? It doesn't matter. Again, it's like the wrong question. The dance is the problem. Which again, Simon, I think speaks to what you're saying. Actually, it's not me against you, it's us against this dance we keep finding ourselves doing on this dance floor.

B (35:23)

And to go to your, to your question about the, of who starts and how does it go? Well, they, they should apologize to me. I, I. Dia Khan, who's a award winning documentary maker, has learned remarkable amounts about this very subject. She's a Muslim woman living in the uk. She was trolled by white supremacists and it got so bad that the police told her to stay away from open windows. And the way that she responded was by moving to the United States and getting to know the white supremacists who were trolling her. And she gave them a safe space to feel heard. Now, this sounds insane to people, right? The white supremacist should be giving her a safe space to feel heard. Except for the fact that's never gonna happen.

A (36:13)

Yeah.

B (36:14)

And so she gave them the safe space to feel heard. She didn't obviously agree or validate, but she would discuss it with them in a safe environment, and you can watch it happen. She made a documentary about it called White Right Meeting the Enemy. And it's an astonishing thing to see. And over the course of time, what starts to happen is they no longer can reconcile their racist points of view with the fact that they now trust this woman and consider her a friend. And they struggle with that. And one by one, they start dropping out of the movement, including one of the leaders of one of the oldest white supremacist movements in the country. Diya has worked with white supremacists. She's worked with jihadis. She's worked with. I mean, you name it, she's worked with all of them. And I talked to her after January 6th. I talked to her after George Floyd. I talked to her after all these. And after all these events, and we talk about reconciliation and repair, and she says to me, you are not going to like my answer. But in every experience I've had and everywhere I've studied, in every circumstance, the victim has to go first. And even though the victim says I shouldn't have to, they should apologize to me, you're 100% right. It's never going to happen. And so when the victim, the one who feels hurt, can come in and say, can. Can we. Can we figure this out? This isn't working.

A (37:35)

Yeah.

B (37:35)

And to. And to first offer that person, to first offer who we perceive as the oppressor, the safe space to feel heard and allow them to empty their bucket first. Only once their bucket is emptied, only once they feel heard, will then they be open to your point of view. And anything before that just doesn't work. And this is consistent in all of dia's work. And so I've had to learn the courage when I'm the one who has felt that I'm on the receiving end. I've had to learn to say, how do you feel? And I've been in positions where people have said things to me that were triggering and made me immediately defensive. And I've had to learn the mantra while I'm sitting there in this listening practice, I've had to learn the mantra. This is their story. Their story doesn't have to be True. Your job is to listen to their story. This is their story. Their story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to the story. Because otherwise I'm just getting defensive and angry, and I've had it happen where I've done this, and I get to the end once they feel like they've been heard and they start retracting some of the mean things they said without me saying a word. And then I can say, can I tell you my point of view? Can I tell you how I perceive the situation? And now they will listen to me. And so it takes tremendous courage to be the listener, especially when you've also been on the receiving end of whatever's happened.

A (39:07)

I mean, you're actually ending with something that you began with, which is the importance of feeling heard, of mattering, and how much that opens any individual up to anything that could happen next. Now, now the part on repair. It's interesting because I thought I was about to disagree with something you said. But again, maybe it's the seafoam greenness of similarity that's making me realize there's a similar theme, that the person who feels like they're the victim or oppressed often has to go first. Now, I talk about repair with parents all the time because I think there is something a little unique with kids, because kids, their survival depends on their attachment with their parents. A lot of us adults have very important relationships, but we literally could survive without them, even if we don't want to. It's not true for kids. So when a kid is yelled at or, you know, when mom, when Becky turns into scary mom, me with her own kids, it's like, oh, the person I need for comfort and safety has now become the person giving me kind of fear and dysregulation. That's very disorienting for kids. And they have to figure out how to feel safe again. And because they need us if we don't repair, really the only answer they have is self blame. It must be my fault. I'm a bad kid, because I always think about this quote from Fairburn. I don't know if you've heard it, you know, but it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. So if I have a choice, I would need to take the badness in rather than assume the badness is out. And the power of repair with kids is so powerful because instead of wiring one generation after another with stories of self blame, when anything is Hard. Which is why all of us as adults always go to, oh, I'm the worst, and you know, into our abyss. Repair stops that. Right. But the thing that I think I didn't consider until you brought it up is, okay, the person who feels oppressed has to go first. Parents often feel oppressed. My kid should apologize to me for not listening when I ask them to get their shoes on. But my kid complained about dinner after my hard work. And so maybe it's the same thing for a parent who's listening and thinking, well, I don't repair because I'm owed one first. It's true. I hear you. Your kid did do something very, very annoying. But as the adult, and I often think with parents, we get our power back when we realize we can make the first move, whether, rather than hoping my 4 year old's gonna, like, change the situation.

B (41:30)

Well, the difference here is we're introducing a power dynamic.

A (41:33)

Yes.

B (41:34)

So with a couple or colleagues who are, you know, relatively on equal footing, then, you know, the, the concept of the victim can. Should go first is, is true. But when there's a power dynamic, you know, all bets are off. And when there's a strict hierarchy in a company, especially somebody who has, who's very senior with somebody who's very junior. And like a parent with a kid, there's a very clear power dynamic. And there, I think that the responsibility lies with the person with the power, the leader. The leader has to go first because the leader is modeling behavior and the leader is the one who, whether they're right or wrong, whether they feel that they're on the side of right, or whether they actually have guilt, either way, it doesn't matter. You're the parent. Like, you're the boss. Like you, you have to go first. And at the very minimum, what you're doing is you're, you're teaching repair and you're teaching courage and you're teaching, hey, can we talk? I need to hear, I need to tell you. And by the way, even if I reacted badly and I want to own my part of, I want to own my part of it. And that doesn't mean. With an excuse is like, you know, it's not, it's not, because it's. But this happened, you know, the minute you say but, it's not true, you know, but I just want to own my part of this because I did this, I did that. And if you're a parent, if you're in a position of leadership, that's part of the job, that's Part of that lifestyle. Part of the lifestyle is you get to take accountability more often. That's the job, you know?

A (43:06)

Totally. Totally. Okay. I could talk to you forever, but I want to end on the quickest rapid fire. I'm going to ask you five questions, quick answers. Are you ready?

B (43:15)

Go.

A (43:15)

Okay. Biggest misconception people have about what it takes to be a good leader.

B (43:20)

That it's natural.

A (43:22)

So good. What is one thing that good leadership requires emotionally?

B (43:27)

Courage.

A (43:28)

If you could give parents or leaders one sentence, one mantra, something to remember in a hard moment, what would it be?

B (43:34)

None of us is strong enough or smart enough to do this alone, so you better do it together.

A (43:38)

So helpful, so powerful, so brilliant. Thank you, Simon. I really, really hope we get to do something like this again. I learned so much from you and think new thoughts, and I'm so grateful for your work.

B (43:49)

Always a joy. Thanks, Becky. Big fan. Let me know what color you want me to wear next time we meet up.

A (43:53)

Sounds good. Simon shared so many gems of wisdom, but I want to share with you the one thing that is living large in my brain. He said so boldly, so directly, so confidently, Being a leader or being a parent, it's not about the moment it happens. It's not about the moment you have a baby or the moment you're given the title CEO. Anyone can do that. It's actually about this lifestyle. It's about the journey. It's about all the decisions you make after. To yes, to learn about yourself, to work on how you manage your emotions, to connect to others, to be the first one to repair, to say perfect is never gonna happen, but every day or every week, it could be 1% better. And I loved the way he was talking about that, because I do think that's what I believe in. And the reward of being in that journey is incredible. When you see I'm able to make the harder choice, I feel proud. I'm finding a win in the moment that used to send me spiraling. I'm so proud of how I show up in hard moments. There's nothing better and there's nothing more addicting. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Screens are part of our lives now, and that includes our kids. At the same time, a lot of parents I talk to notice how easily they can get in the way of connection. And honestly, that tension shows up in our homes every day. Mine too. That's why I'm really drawn to something called the Reset, a national movement from Outward Bound USA to help young people live healthier, more connected lives through time, outdoors and balanced digital habits. The idea is simple and powerful. One day, 24 hours to unplug from screens and reconnect with your kids, with other people, with the world around you. The Reset day is Saturday, January 24th, and what unplugging looks like is totally up to you. Maybe it's a family walk, a game night time outside, or just being together without phones nearby. If that sounds like something your family could use, you can sign the pledge and make a commitment to to one day of real connection at the reset.org that's the reset.org because unplugging isn't about what you're giving up. It's about what you get back.