← Good Inside with Dr. Becky
Good Inside with Dr. Becky
Stop Trying to Make Your Kids Creative
00:34:04
Dr. Becky and Austin Kleon talk about what creativity actually needs to thrive, and what so-called "problem kids" and great artists have in common.
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- [00:00]
Austin Kleon
I can't get this out of my head, so I'm just going to tell you. You know the game I played when I was bottomed out the most? I read about it during the pandemic. What's on my butt? Do you know what's on my butt?
- [00:11]
Dr. Becky
What is it?
- [00:13]
Austin Kleon
Do you want to hear about the game?
- [00:14]
Dr. Becky
I do.
- [00:15]
Austin Kleon
You lay down flat on the couch or on the bed? Yeah. Yeah. You lay down, you close your eyes, and the kids put something on your butt and you get to guess what's on my butt.
- [00:31]
Dr. Becky
What? Raise a creative kid. Every parent I talk to is being told that right now. Raise a creative kid. Protect their imagination. Nothing's going to matter in the world going forward except for originality. It's on every podcast, every parenting account, every school newsletter. And then I read Austin Kleon's new book, and it felt initially counterintuitive and then retrospectively obvious because Austin's whole argument is, your kid already has it. The imagination, the originality, the creativity. It's not something we have to install in them. We don't have to give it to them. It's something they came with. And so the question isn't how to put it in there or build it. The question, what we're really going to be talking about today, and it's mind blowing stuff, but also remarkably simple, is how do we kind of just create the conditions to preserve it and for our kid to access it? And then there's also a little bit of a deeper question, which I think you're going to appreciate. Do we have access to ours? And guess what? We also talk about how we can re access it in small, totally manageable ways. Austin's the writer behind Steal like an artist. Show your work. Keep going. Books that have taught a generation of adults how to make things. His new one, don't call it art, didn't come from inspiration at an art school. It came from his kitchen table. Inspiration from his kids. Let me also just tell you that I haven't had so much fun talking to someone in a while. I think you'll hear it in my voice. I think you'll hear it in the stories I end up telling. There was something just so playful about this conversation, and I think you're gonna end up having a little playfulness and joy in yourself as you listen. I'm Dr. Becky. This is good inside. Let's get into it. Austin. I feel like parents right now are kind of being sold creativity. Like it's something to install, okay? Like workshops, kits, classes, framework, Scripts, everything. And I feel like your book kind of says some version of, like, stop. Your kid has it. You don't need to install it. And to some degree, maybe it's us, the parents who lost it or lost access to it. I don't know. Like, is that at all accurate? Tell me more.
- [02:51]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I mean, people kept asking me, well, when are you going to do a creativity book for kids? And I said, well, kids don't need a book. We're the ones that need a book to be more, like, creative. Like them. You know, most of the time parents, when it comes to creative stuff with their kids, they just get in the way, you know, because you can't really teach a kid to be creative. What you do is you set the conditions for them to be creative in. You know, creating those conditions for my own kids was what, like, kind of lit up a light bulb for myself. I was like, wait a minute. What if I'm giving my kids this time, space and materials? Like, how come I don't do that for myself in the studio? I feel like great bands know this. You know, like, you. You, like. You get in the studio, you, like, set up the vibes. You get the amp set up, you get the drum set up. You do all that. You create the conditions. But then what comes out of it? It's like, the more you focus on that, the more you're going to get gummed up and you're going to, like, kind of like, you know, freeze up, you know? Yeah.
- [03:52]
Dr. Becky
Like you're saying the band. The more they're saying, okay, was that it? Was that the hit? Was that going to be great? How about we do it now? Are we going to do it now? How? You're like, the vibes are off, guys, and the vibes are real. That's what you're saying. The vibes are really. Got to trust the vibes a little.
- [04:04]
Austin Kleon
The vibes are real. And what we know about great bands is a lot of their big hits came from them goofing off. You know, Like, a lot of, you know, Radiohead is like, I don't have this song. It's kind of weird. It's about being a creep and then it becomes their biggest hit. You know, Led Zeppelin is like, we got this weird song called Stairway to Heaven. It's not like our other stuff, you know, but it's like something that you learn. That's like something that my kids taught me is. It's like. It's really when you're messing around that the most creative stuff happens. And I think this is what's really hard for parents, is that kids tend to be their most creative when they're really supposed to be doing something else.
- [04:40]
Dr. Becky
100%. I wanna share a story that's coming to mind. And then I have so many questions for you. Okay. But it's crazy what just connected in my brain. Okay. Because I think one of my all time best parenting strategies that I've ever come up with with my own kid. I wanna tell you how it happened. Okay?
- [04:55]
Austin Kleon
Okay.
- [04:56]
Dr. Becky
I'm looking at my team in the studio. Get ready guys. Cause this is. I'm gonna model this and you're gonna laugh at me for the rest of my life. Okay? So my youngest was stalling, brushing his teeth because he's a kid, because all the things he want. I get it. I tried all the things. All the things, Austin. Okay. It was so many nights in a row. So this is what I started saying, talking about messing around. I go, oh, have I ever told you about this game? I can't even tell you about this game. And of course he's like four. He's like, okay, tell me about the game. And what might be clear to you is I had no idea what was gonna come out of my mouth. I was just stalling. I can't tell you. It's so ridiculous. Nope, can't tell you. And tell. I was like, okay. Okay, well this game is called. I'm like, what am I going to say? I'm messing around. I don't know what I'm doing. Brush a brush a Bruce Bruce. I literally.
- [05:47]
Austin Kleon
Okay, good title.
- [05:49]
Dr. Becky
I want to play Brush a brush a brush brush. I was like, I bet you do. I bet you do. I don't even know if I'm going to. Okay, fine. Well, I'm going to brush your teeth. And let me just show you. Let me demonstrate. So now and I'm gonna start saying brush a brush a brush Bruce. Brusha brusha Bruch Brush a brush a Bruce brush. And I do it and I go, but then you have to listen. And when I go to a different pattern. Brush a brush a brush. You're gonna run and you're gonna have to spit it out in the sink before I touch the sink. And then I can't even tell you. My older kids, mom, why don't you play Brusha brusha Bruce Bruce with me? I literally was like, I messed around. I had. I was stalling. I can't. I don't even know it. Can't even tell you how many good inside members go of all your strength that has saved my life. Brush a. Brush a. Bruce, Bruce. If you know, you know. And I'm just thinking about my. I'm gonna like my random creativity. Does that count as creativity? I don't know. But how it came in this total spontaneous stalling, not knowing, uncertain, messing around, moment perfect.
- [07:01]
Austin Kleon
And I think the inciting incident was you saying, you saying, hey, have I ever told you about this game? And you have to deliver now, right? You've engaged. That's the inciting incident.
- [07:14]
Dr. Becky
I created a container.
- [07:15]
Austin Kleon
You created the conditions under which the game was made. So like that creates the, like that creates the space. Then that you have to fill the void. Right. There's a void now and I want
- [07:30]
Dr. Becky
to link it back to something you said. Kids are the most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. I have a question. Truly this is like a new insight. Was I my most creative in that moment? Because in some ways parenting lore says give your. Give your kid a threat. I'm supposed to be threatening. I'm supposed to be exerting my authority. And I kind of opened up this container for something totally different. Like I wonder if that's similar to. I want you to tell me more about. Kids are more. The most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else.
- [07:58]
Austin Kleon
I think what you were doing is you were being. You were doing the thing that great artists do and great storytellers do, which is, hey, have you ever heard of this game? Have you ever heard of the story? And you're. Wait, what's the story? I mean like, it's the hook. Like that, it's the hook. It's the hook. You've given them a hook. Now I've got you now and then, you know, so I think that's what you were doing right there is you were kind of doing what the artist does. Because people think about art and creative work as being this one way street where the artist just makes stuff and puts it out there. But just like a, like I write books and books are nothing without the reader.
- [08:34]
Dr. Becky
Yes. Okay, take me back to. I just kept thinking in your work, the kids that we label as problems and that line, kids are most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. So kids we labels defiant, uncooperative, dramatic, too much. Is that creativity with nowhere to go. Is that creativity about to be unlocked? Tell me.
- [08:56]
Austin Kleon
Oh, I don't know. I was a good boy. And like I was a very, like I was not. I was a straight A student. I was like A very, like, good boy. But I didn't do anything good until I stopped being good, right? Like, I didn't really find my work until I was able to do that bad boy stuff that I didn't do when I was a kid, you know?
- [09:20]
Dr. Becky
Wait, like, what didn't you do? Like, tell me about that.
- [09:22]
Austin Kleon
You know, I was. I was. I was like a good boy. I got good grades and, like, you know, and. And, like, didn't go out and party much and that kind of thing, you know, and. And did what you know, my parents expected of me and that kind of thing. The most creative things I did, though, were when I was younger, I played in a band, and that was kind of the safe space where I could be a little bit wilder and stuff. But, you know, my parents always encouraged me, too. So it's not like I was really going on a limb. It was really like when. With my own creative work, it's when I got out of the structure of school that I really discovered the things that were really unique to me. And I could kind of like, be bad. And when I say be bad, it's like, do the things that weren't serious, right? Cause, like, my stuff, like, my books have pictures and words in them, right? Well, you know, if you're in a creative writing workshop and you turn in a story with pictures, it. They're going to say, like, what is this? This is supposed to be in, like, 12 point times new Roman, you know, So I don't know. I mean, I do think that, like, what an art museum is for is you go into the art museum and you have an encounter with the work of art and you see things the way that the artist sees things. And then you're supposed to go out in the world and have that way of seeing, like. Everybody knows what it's like to, like, like, witness a really great work of art. And then you come out and you're like, wow, it looks like a Rembrandt out here or something. You know, kids skip right over that part because they're already seeing the world in these kind of like, artist psychedelic terms. They're already seeing the world as a work of art with the exit signs. And so that was like a really. That was a really, really good moment for me.
- [10:59]
Dr. Becky
I want to zoom into that moment because I'm just thinking. And I'm sure you get it, too, and maybe this is like, Child Austin meeting now, Liberated adult Austin. But there's this moment you're like, I took. I don't know, I took the day off work, I bought these tickets. I go to this vacation. I'm at the Met, I'm at whatever museum, okay? And I took my kids here, and I want them to appreciate the X, because everyone appreciates whatever the X stands for, okay? And then you see your kid, and I think the short circuited thought is, my kid's ungrateful. My kid's uncooperative. My kid doesn't get it right. And that's one response. And we all have said it. I've said it right. I've thought it at least, and I've said it. Okay, what. Just. What is going on in your head? Maybe. Maybe you've earned this. Or. Now this is more natural. But just to model it, what's a different set of thoughts a parent might have for that kid in that moment?
- [11:55]
Austin Kleon
One of my favorite moments of all time is I was. I got to lead around a group of kids one time, and this was before I had kids, and we were in an art museum, and I said, you know, you don't have to know how you. Why you like things. And they all looked at me and they're like, what? I was like, you don't have to know how you like. Like, why you like things. You know, your teachers, they're going to ask you after this. You know, you go look at a piece of art, they're going to say, now write me an essay about why you like this thing. But you know what? You don't have to know right away. You just have to sit with it and like it. And they were so excited. Yet, wow, this guy's really crazy.
- [12:29]
Dr. Becky
But I think you're. I mean, I think what you're saying is kind of the opposite of crazy, because what you're saying to a kid is you can trust a signal in your body before your brain makes sense of it.
- [12:41]
Austin Kleon
Exactly. They are taking in the world without the br. Yeah. They're getting that raw input and having a response to it, which is exactly what we lose as we get older and what artists manage to have. And it's an opportunity then to be like, who do you think made the exit sign? How do we find that out? Do you think the building next door has different exit signs? You know, and then it becomes this exploration, this opportunity.
- [13:09]
Dr. Becky
Yeah. You know, and I think what you're saying, too, which is, I always find when I do this with my kids, they have the. Whenever I tell them something I'm learning from them or they're helping me with, ugh, they light up. So I think from your example, I could say sometimes when I go to a museum, I only let myself, like, the things I think I'm supposed to, like, kind of, like, pretty basic of me. And so I'm gonna try to wander around and just, like, see what happens. Like, I'm learning that from you. Right. I just. I don't know. I. Like, I would feel so good as a parent if I said that. Like, I would feel like that was meaningful, you know?
- [13:49]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. And it's like, why don't you pick us something to look at? You know, Put them in, giving them the autonomy, giving them the power in the situation. Why don't you lead, you know?
- [14:01]
Dr. Becky
Yes. Okay. You talk a lot about learning things from kids, and there's this moment in your book where your son makes a drawing you think is perfect, okay. And then he throws it away and starts another one. So can you first just walk me through if we had that moment on, like, 0.2x? So it's really slowed down. What's going on as you're noticing it, what you're feeling during it, Just, like, what's going on inside you?
- [14:28]
Austin Kleon
I mean, it was happening so much is the thing. It was like. I mean, I would literally. My son Jules, who still draws and draws in his sketchbook more than most artists I know. Like, he would draw 50 drawings a day. You know, I mean, we would go through a whole ream of copy paper, like, in a couple of days. And so it was happening so much that there were times where I almost got desensitized to it. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, he's drawing it. Yeah, Jules, he's drawing another drawing, you know? But, like, the interesting thing to me was just the shock of, like, you can make something so cool, and then just be like, pow, do another one. Because I thought, I can't do that. I can't do that in the studio. If I make something great, like, I'll be like, oh, wow, I gotta scan this and put this up on Instagram. Or, like, you know, whatever it is. I can't be like, yeah, cool. All right, let's make another one. You know? And. And with Jules, it was also, like, I was watching him, and I was like, he. He had this really fun way of drawing where he would draw a little bit and then he would pump his fists.
- [15:41]
Dr. Becky
Yeah.
- [15:42]
Austin Kleon
Like, he. Like, yes, look at what we're doing here. You know? And then he'd go back at it, and he'd be like, you know, and he would celebrate himself while he was working.
- [15:51]
Dr. Becky
I love this kid. I need to meet him.
- [15:52]
Austin Kleon
It's just like. And I was like, you can do that, right? Like, wow, I bet I could do that if. No, you know, like, what if I did that in the studio? You know, what if I got a line dance? No, it was just like, it was like learning. It was literally like learning from a little master, you know, that's what I think a real creative person needs, is to love the process more than the product. Because the product someone else can take and do something with it.
- [16:23]
Dr. Becky
There's a very specific moment in the day a lot of parents hit, usually in the afternoon, where you're still going, but everything feels harder than it should. You're answering questions, making decisions, trying to stay patient, and suddenly simple things feel complicated. Like, why does choosing a snack suddenly feel like a high stakes decision? And most of us, me included, have the tendency to just push through it, power through. But I've started to pay more attention to those in between moments and how something as basic as hydration can actually help. And that's what I like about Element's sparkling electrolyte drinks. They're designed for those exact moments. Not just workouts, but real life. School, drop off the transition between soccer and coming home. That mid afternoon dip around 4:07pm and it's a simple grab and go can. No mixing, no prep. Something I can just reach for when I need a small reset for me, no sugar, no artificial ingredients. Just a way to support yourself a little better in the middle of a long day. If you want to try it, Element is offering a free gift with any purchase, just go to drinkelement.com goodinside that's drink lmnt.com goodinside. Sorry, I didn't mean this to be my therapy session. Tell me how much I owe you after. But people are like, how do you respond to all things you put online? People liking them or not liking them. And literally I'm like, I. It's weird. I don't even have a great answer to that question. I just feel like I'm so often consumed by the next thing I'm thinking about and trying to work out in my head or the next conversation I'm having. A parent, I'm like, that's a conundrum. Ooh, what's going on? Let's figure that out together. I don't know yet, but maybe I will tomorrow. I don't know. That's just where I am. That's where I am.
- [18:21]
Austin Kleon
In the next moment, I'll have what she's having. That's what I'm hearing basically, because only
- [18:27]
Dr. Becky
here, let me be clear.
- [18:28]
Austin Kleon
That is what every great artist I've ever studied talks about is. Like, I, once the thing's out, it's dead. It's on to the next thing. It's dead to me. Yeah, well, you know, we talk about executing a project, like, yeah, well then it's dead. Once you execute it, it's dead to you. Right? Like it's done onto the next thing.
- [18:50]
Dr. Becky
English language is wow. Wow. Okay, this has been. Okay, next thing I want to ask you about. I could talk to you forever. Is obsession. Okay? I hear different versions of this from parents all the time. In fact, someone I remember talking to this parent for a while. My four year old's obsessed with garage doors. Okay? All he wants to do is drive around our city and watch them open and close. And then my kids, like, my friends, like, do they. Does my kid have an issue? Is my kid this thing? Are they that thing? How long do I let this happen for? I'm trying to show my kid there's other things, but it's just. Just back to the garage wars. What is that about from your perspective? I think you have a lot to say about it.
- [19:33]
Austin Kleon
I think John Baldessari, who is actually the person I stole the title for this book from, he used to say that you have to be obsessed. Talent is nothing. You have to be obsessed or you'll never make it as a creative person. Creative people are people who get obsessed and kids are creative and so they get obsessed by things. My son loved engines. I'm not a car guy. My son loved everyone who came to our house. He would want to look at the engine and then he'd say, hey dad, take a picture of this so I can look at it later. And he'd want me to print it out and then he would draw the engine. And I know more about combustion engines, something I never wanted to know about because of my son Owen. You just like expand the thing they get obsessed by.
- [20:18]
Dr. Becky
So let's do that with garage doors because I think the impulse can be. And maybe this goes back to your beginning when you're saying as parents, like we can so easily lose touch with anything related to creativity because we're so in a up into the right optimization world, right? And so like we all get why it happens. Then we see this thing in our kid, right? And I think, I don't know, I see this visual. My. My friend who has a kid, this garage door obsession. So let's Say he has a road of his life and he's, like, stuck at garage doors, okay? He's like, garage doors, garage doors, garage doors. And I think our impulse in mine, too, is we push back. We almost, like, build a wall, but we don't realize we're just keeping our kids stuck at the garage door because, like, we're, like, pushing back, right? And I think what you're saying is, what if the garage door. They have to be there for a little. But it's. It is the eventual kind of door to the.
- [21:08]
Austin Kleon
The door is the door.
- [21:09]
Dr. Becky
The door is the door. Okay? Not that creative.
- [21:11]
Austin Kleon
Door is the door.
- [21:12]
Dr. Becky
Sometimes my metaphors are very literal, right? And what in. What if we just follow it a little bit?
- [21:18]
Austin Kleon
I guess this is kind of my education because I went to a school that was an interdisciplinary school in college, and we would take something like a garage door, and we would look at it from 100 different angles. We'd say, well, what's the sociological angle of a garage door? What's the environmental angle of a garage door? What's the design angle? So I would ask the kid, well, what do you think about what would it be like to have a house that didn't have a garage door? Why do you think some houses have garage doors and some houses don't? Did you know that some garage doors don't face the driveway? Some of them face. You know, and then you start one, and then you can. Because the answer, of course, is that we didn't always have cars that we pulled into our houses, right? So, like, you know, you're kind of like my. The thing that helped me the most as a parent is I used to be a librarian. So my first job out of college was a reference desk librarian. And the librarian. You learn the library, the librarian doesn't need to know the answers. They just need to know what questions to ask and where to find the answers. So I was always going to. You know, I threatened for years if I was going to write a parenting book, I'd say parent, like a librarian, you know, because I wrote a book called Steal like an Artist, so the Symbolizer. And. But to me, it was like, the more I thought of myself as a librarian, the kid comes to me. He's got all these weird interests, got all these obsessions, got all these questions. I don't need to have the answers. I just need to say, you know, I bet I know where we could look for that. And we could look for that together. And, oh, you're into garage doors. Hey, you know What I found, I found our old opener, you know. You know, or like, look, I found this manual. You know what grandpa? You know what grandpa did? I told him you were in the garage doors. He mailed us his manual for his garage door on his barn. Let's take a look at it. You know, and it's just about being like. So. Yeah. My training as a librarian, I think, you know, really inspired me more than anything with the kids is to just think about everything they bring you is an opportunity for inquiry and curiosity and for a way to. For them to learn about the world literally through their obsession. Because, yes, you can start with garage doors. You can learn. I would guess that you could build a whole urban planning class around garage doors.
- [23:42]
Dr. Becky
Okay, we're talking about play, but I want to talk about it related to something you said, right. And you quote this line in the book. The opposite of play isn't work. The opposite of play is depression. And I want to, like, honestly, like, probably even change my own tone, take a deep breath into that because I really, I feel privileged to be led into parents lives who do tell me, like every day they're exhausted, they feel like the joy has gone and there's low grade or diagnosable or depression. Whatever it is, it feels really dark. And so talk to me about how depression is related to play.
- [24:23]
Austin Kleon
Well, I'm not the expert. The expert is. Stuart Brown has wrote a great book on play and that's. Who said that line, I think depression, you know, to me, play is to be activated and depression is to be non activated. Right. Depression is to be the opposite of whatever activated is. And I think that play is something that lets you know you're alive. Like only things that are alive. Play and everything that's. Well, plants, maybe not. I haven't researched the play of plants. See, this is a great question for a kid. Do you think plants play?
- [24:59]
Dr. Becky
You know, well, we know that. We know that trees kind of talk now, right? That there's so that's really interesting. Do they make jokes?
- [25:08]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. And you know, these questions, by the way, are exactly the, like, this is like how children's books start or how any artist gets an idea. Like, do trees talk? You know, these kinds of questions that kids ask? Yeah, these naive questions. You know, there's a great, it's a great book called Philosophy and the Young Child where the guy kind of talks about, you know, Socrates was really just being a young kid and asking really basic questions that everyone else thought they had answered. You know, that's what kids are so good at is. And the questions that they ask make you question your own knowledge, you know, and that's why I think they're so good at, like, cracking things open.
- [25:50]
Dr. Becky
Yeah. Kids are remarkably good at not knowing, right?
- [25:55]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yes. And not knowing is at the very heart of what I think every creative person needs. Donald Barthelmay wrote a great essay about it, and he said, the writer is someone who does not know what to do. And you sit with that, say, I do not know what I'm doing. And you sit with uncertainty. The cool thing about uncertainty is, like, we're in an uncertain world, and everyone's full of uncertainty right now. The really handy thing about being a creative person is that uncertainty is the very thing that you run on, like, not knowing. Because when you don't know what you're doing, that means there are possibilities. To be sure of something means that the possibilities are pretty shut down. But, like, to not be sure is to be open and to have possibilities. So the not knowing is the thing that it all runs on. And again, that's what kids like. The beginner's mind is what the. You know, the Zen folks would say. Kids have that beginner's mind because in the expert's mind, the possibilities are few. In the beginner's mind, the possibilities are endless.
- [27:01]
Dr. Becky
Do you ever have moments where it's hard to be playful with your kids? Is that. Is that ever kind of. Yeah, every day.
- [27:06]
Austin Kleon
Are you kidding? I'm not a very good. I mean, I wouldn't even call myself. I mean, the only way that I know I'm probably not a bad dad is that I worry about being a bad dad. And I think that any parent who worries about being a good parent is probably not a bad parent. You know, I mean, I'm sure you've discovered that in your work. But, you know, I mean, like. Yeah, and it's called bedtime. It's time to go to bed.
- [27:29]
Dr. Becky
Okay, so tell me one thing there. Cause I'm gonna share with you something I did last night. It's kind of crazy that this is coming full circle. Like, show me full circle moments with you. What is something you've done at bedtime to force yourself to be a little more playful? Maybe you commit to the container before you know how to fill it that you can share with other parents. And I'll share a simple thing I did the other night.
- [27:48]
Austin Kleon
Oh, wow. Playful at bedtime.
- [27:51]
Dr. Becky
Or maybe that's a stretch. Playful an hour before bed. Just like a moment that you were like, I kind of Want to lean in and be a little more present, playful, creative, fun. And do you, do you have any, do you have any cheat sheets? Of sorts. We all need those.
- [28:04]
Austin Kleon
I can't get this out of my head, so I'm just going to tell you. You know the game I played when I was bottomed out the most? I read about it during the pandemic. What's on my butt? Do you know what's on my butt?
- [28:16]
Dr. Becky
What is it?
- [28:16]
Austin Kleon
What's on my butt? I don't know. Who discovered this glorious game what's on my Butt? You want to hear about a game, right? You want to hear about the game?
- [28:26]
Dr. Becky
I do.
- [28:28]
Austin Kleon
So it. You lay down flat on the couch or on the bed. Okay. Yeah. You lay down, you close your eyes and the kids put something on your butt and you get to guess what's on my butt. What's on my butt? It's the game that's taking over the nation. And that was just, oh, what's on my butt? Makes me think of the pandemics. And my kids were little during the pandemic, like they were little kids. And what's on my butt got me through a lot of bottomed out times, but it was a game, you know, and so was your brusha brusha. Right? Games, playfulness. Like it doesn't even have to be. You don't have to be playful to play a game. You know, like the game part of the game is to trick you into being playful, you know, 100%.
- [29:21]
Dr. Becky
It's funny. I play a game, I'm gonna talk about something else, but I end up kind of setting something up that's playful and I say, and if you do this thing, I'll do a butt dance. So there's. Which is like I jump up and down and touch my butt. So like there's something similar in our. We end up at the same place as you and I. But this is what I. But, but, and, and so last night I was putting my 8 year old to bed. He's my youngest. And I have to be honest, I'm obsessed with children's books. Okay. But I don't read as many as I used to. I mean 14, 11, 8. My kids have, you know, like, or anyway. But you know what book I took out that was a fan favorite, I mean forever, but it just bit in a while was the book with no pictures. Shout out to B.J. know that.
- [30:00]
Austin Kleon
B.J. know that guy.
- [30:00]
Dr. Becky
Okay. I mean this I just want for anyone listening, okay? I have no affiliate structure here. Okay? This is just pure cheat sheet. It is such a beautiful container to enter into playfulness and silliness. Because the book, I'll give it away, forces you through the reading of it to say ridiculous things. And ridiculous sounds right? Bloggity bloggity, glibbity globbity globbity glibbity beep boop. Like, I can still. I can think about the whole book and what happened between me and my son. And it was. It was a long day. Right. And it was. And it just. It was playfulness at bedtime. Which feels like a parenting paradox. Right. Like, how can we do that? And we always do. Rose, Rose, Thorn, and Bud with my kid at bedtime. Right. The best part of your day, your hardest. The thing you're looking forward to.
- [30:56]
Austin Kleon
Yep.
- [30:56]
Dr. Becky
And. And he, you know, Rose, we do first. And he goes, definitely right now reading that book with you. And honestly, I left his room after doing the rest of routine and I just thought, like, that was my Rose too.
- [31:11]
Austin Kleon
I keep a diary and one of the things I would really recommend to people with young parents or young kids is if you can stand it, just keep a one line a day diary because. And one of the things that people usually, when they pick up their diaries, they write about bad things or the worst things. I always try at least once in my diary to write the best thing. This is something I learned from the writer Nicholson Baker, who wrote about it in his book the Anthologist. When you think about the best thing that happens in a day, there's something more poetic about it. It brings out the best in you and you are able to kind of like. I just think it's like this really helpful exercise that when you are bottom out like a parent, like in the way that parents can get that thing, if you can just focus on that one good thing, the best thing that happened. Even if it was like getting the kids to bed and watching, you know, the pit, whatever, like that. Those me moments are so worth noting because not to quote Kurt Vonnegut again, but like his uncle always said, always notice when you're happy. Like, if this isn't nice, I don't know what it is.
- [32:26]
Dr. Becky
That was such a fun conversation. Like, I'm beaming now. I just ended. And it just shows me playing around with ideas, playing around with silliness. Play. It's so hard sometimes in this world. And some days I don't have it either. A lot of days. And I don't feel any guilt for that. And I hope you don't either. But maybe this sparks something for you, which shows that we didn't put it in you. We maybe just helped you ignite something that was kind of dormant inside you. Because we all have that creativity in that play. I wanna tell you something I'm gonna do for you. Cause I know what you're thinking. That what's on your butt game. That brusha brusha. Bruce. Bruce, that book. I need this written out. That is some serious playful stuff. And I don't wanna forget it. And I wanna send it to my partner and I wanna talk about it with my group of friends. Because it's gonna feel so weird doing brusha brusha bruch, Bruce. But if my friends do it too on the same day, we can play around with it together. So go to the link in the show notes. I'm gonna lay it all out for you. I think we all need a little bit more play. And if someone can help us create the conditions for it, we all benefit. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good and playful and creative and imaginative inside. I'll see you soon.