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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:22]
Trail Map Friend 1
Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [00:26]
Trail Map Friend 2
Yeah. No, I don't need to.
- [00:28]
Trail Map Friend 1
I don't understand. You're trusting your signal out here.
- [00:30]
Trail Map Friend 2
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network and if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.
- [00:37]
Trail Map Friend 1
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [00:39]
Trail Map Friend 2
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
- [00:43]
T-Mobile Advertiser
With America's best network and T Satellite, we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for four lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store.
- [00:59]
T-Mobile Advertiser Details
Best Mob Based on analysis by OOKLA Speed Test Intelligence data 2H 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible pour ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and $35 connection charge per line credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example $299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky included with experience beyond under $10 a month. However, news monthly cancel anytime visit t
- [01:22]
William Curb
mobile.com welcome to hacking your ADHD. I'm your host William Curb and I have ADHD. On this podcast I dig into the tools tactics to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team. In today's episode, we're joined by Dusty Chapura, an ADHD coach and passionate advocate to explore the nuanced world of ADHD and pregnancy. With her personal and professional experience, we will be looking into the challenges and questions that often come up with this subject. There is a huge gap in what we know about ADHD and pregnancy and it can be hard to find good information. Dusty is an outstanding coach and a font of knowledge in this area. Even if you aren't pregnant or planning on pregnancy soon, this episode will be well worth listening to, especially if you have someone in your life that might be. If you'd like to follow along on the Show Notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 184. Alright, keep on listening to find out how ADHD can have its impact on pregnancy.
- [02:28]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
So I was really excited to hear more about like this pregnancy and ADHD stuff because I've seen you posting like interesting research about like how we didn't really know that much about it before. And it is one of those things where I'm like why didn't we know? But of course I know, I know why we. Because we don't do research on women, adhd, pregnancy. Really interesting to realize that there is so much that we don't know because really there hasn't been a lot of research been done on women in ADHD for a long time and then specifically women who are pregnant. It's just been. I mean there's not a lot of research done on pregnant women for obvious reasons. But it does mean that there's a lot of assumptions that are being made that people are like, you know, like the. I think I, I saw something recently you were posting about medication and ADHD for pregnancy and how that's the, the views on that are really changing.
- [03:31]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, you were, you were about to say this earlier but you said, well, I know why we don't have a lot of research on ADHD pregnant women. And I think it's less about the fact that we don't do research on pregnant women and more about the fact that like again, up until recently we haven't really talked a lot about gender parity with adhd. Right. We're still kind of catching up in those conversations regarding like how ADHD and things like autism manifest for women and people with uteruses. And you know, it's, it's really the beginning of this, the discussion even around stuff like what does it mean for people going through menopause. Right. All this idea about like that there's a difference when you have a hormone and cycles. All of that is like I've only heard that within the last, you know, couple years at the most. It's all stuff that we haven't talked about up until recently primarily because the discussion is always centered around sort of like white boy or white man as like the main, you know, sort of experience person experiencing symptoms. Right?
- [04:27]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, there is a. I mean and I understand like for their initial research they're like, oh, we don't want to, we want to have things be settled. We know hormones affect medication so we don't want to study people that have fluctuating hormones. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. In the maybe initial thought process of it. But then if half your population has hormone fluctuations, you kind of need to know that stuff.
- [04:59]
Trail Map Friend 1
Yeah.
- [04:59]
Dusty Chapura
And I also think it has to do with the fact that like, pregnancy for, for most of us in the west, you know, birth rates, I know, in Canada are really declining. So for a lot of us, especially now that people are starting to have babies older and stuff, this might be something we experience once, twice, you know, maybe three times in our lives or maybe never. Right. Not all people with uteruses are even going to experience pregnancy. So on top of the fact that like, we don't talk that much or are only starting to talk about hormones and, and people with uteruses and women with adhd, like, that's a subset of A subset in terms of sort of the medical, you know, research and stuff. Right. Pregnancy is sort of this moment in your life that comes and goes. And so I think maybe up until now, when a, when a woman or a person with a uterus is like sort of thinking about their whole life, you know, it's one moment of it, but there's also like work and there's also like being a parent and there's also like, you know, all these other aspects and ways that ADT shows up in your world that they'd be thinking more about. Because I think like, with pregnancy, while you're in it, while it's happening to you, while you're pregnant, you're gonna be really focused on that and you're gonna be having a whole experience. But almost as, like, as soon as pregnancy is done, you're like, you're literally on to the next thing. Like you've got a newborn, you've got a person you're responsible for keeping alive, especially if you're a first time parent. So like, I think after you're done being pregnant, it's like a little bit easy to forget that like this was a whole thing that was challenging. But so for those people who are more on the like the end of it where like they're about to be pregnant or they've just found out they're pregnant, they're the ones who are like, oh my goodness, like, what do I do? Right.
- [06:42]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah, yeah. I remember when we brought our kids home from the hospital and there is that, like, you know, like, wait, they're just letting us do this. Like, this is.
- [06:54]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah, we just. Yeah.
- [06:55]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
With what?
- [06:57]
Dusty Chapura
Well, and also like, I don't know about you, but like, I mean, less from an ADHD perspective and more from like a birth worker perspective. You know, whenever I heard my mom talk about giving birth, I had this idea about labor that it's like this horrible thing you get through. And my mom always had this saying, like, she would always say, like, oh, you forget the pain of labor. Like, you forget because you've got this beautiful baby. And so, like, you know, labor sucked and it was painful, but you just forget about it. My mom was always saying, like, oh, you forget the pain of labor. And so I always had this idea about labor that it's just this thing that you, like, get through. You put it behind you. You never think on it if you don't have to. Right. And if that's the predominant attitude that we have in the west about pregnancy and, and delivery, well, of course we're not going to talk about it. We're not going to focus on it. It's. It's just. It's almost something we want to avoid thinking about and talking about. It's the thing that, that is on the way to getting our baby. Right. But from a birth worker perspective. Right. What we know about pregnancy and labor is like, it doesn't have to be just like, horrible, traumatic thing that you are, like, glad you don't remember the pain of because you just love your beautiful baby so much. Like, yeah, it's going to be painful. Yeah, there's going to be challenging aspects of it. But I think that pregnancy is a really, really special time of life. I think that labor is something that can be like, joyful and beautiful and peaceful. And I think that there are a lot of other examples in the world of, like, what the process can look like. It doesn't have to look horrible and short and traumatic. And I think that's an important perspective to have. Important perspective to have. Because anything that's hard and traumatic for a neurotypical person is going to be even more so for a person with adhd. Right. Like, it's going to be sort of even worse for us.
- [08:35]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah. Because we already know we have good amount of research showing that trauma manifests ADHD like, symptoms. And so I see like that as like, double dipping into these kind of like executive function difficulties where you, like, you have this amplification effect of when, oh, yeah, I have this trauma and I have ADHD now I'm doing it. It's not just creating the same symptom twice. It's like, oh, this is amplifying what's going on already going on.
- [09:06]
Dusty Chapura
Exactly. And we know that rates of part of depression are much higher in AD impacted birthers. Right. Like people with ADC are more risk of ppd.
- [09:16]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Oh that is, that makes sense. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm going to learn so many things I had no idea about in this conversation. Which is I think one of the things that's like why this kind of stuff is so important because I am steeped in ADHD stuff and there's a ton of stuff here I have never heard of because it's not the mainstream ADHD stuff for white males.
- [09:44]
Dusty Chapura
Exactly.
- [09:45]
Trail Map Friend 1
Yeah.
- [09:46]
Dusty Chapura
And it's, it's so interesting because in doing this work I see it, I see it be 50 50. Like absolutely. There are some people who say like, oh my ADHD got better during pregnancy and like I had great pregnancies and I didn't struggle with anything and I felt the more the most clear headed I've ever felt. So like for some people the, the impact of estrogen is actually like really helping them. But then for other people it's exactly opposite and they're having a worse time and they say like, you know, they say to me like, I wish this had been around when I was pregnant because pregnancy was like so traumatic for me.
- [10:13]
William Curb
Right.
- [10:14]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah. So I'm just trying to think of where we should go with this because there is a lot of, a lot of stuff here are. So what are some things that you are, have really noticed from your clients that you work with the adhd that. So as you were saying, people wish they knew more about this before. What are the me we. What are the things that they really wish they knew?
- [10:40]
Dusty Chapura
Well, I think just like, yeah, it's, it's hard. Like one of the things I really notice is that people with ADHD tend to go one of two ways with, with pregnancy. Some of our, you know, some people with ADC are very perfectionistic. Right. I find this true to be true even just of my clients. Like people with ADC are like, they almost like overcompensate. They've got like that anxiety response or they've got sort of like that need for like control or perfectionism where they like kind of like they need to know everything and they need everything to be like, you know, they need to be on top of everything and they're almost like kind of like too obsessive. Like almost kind of like, I don't want to say like neurotic but like, you know, like very anxious. Right. Or they kind of go the other way and they're like the sort of person who's like overwhelmed and they, they don't know how to Keep track of stuff. And everything's kind of like a swirling mess, right? And it's. It's sort of like, I think your pregnancy experience is going to depend on, like, which direction you go. Because if you're the more person who's, like, anxious and you need to know things and you want everything to be done right, I think you're really at risk of, like, stressing yourself out. There's this big idea that I think there's this big issue with people trying to, like, do pregnancy right. Like, do all the right things. Because there's all these rules. Right? And so, you know, I'd be interested in seeing if there was a way to see the split on this between, like, pure ADHD and, like, Audi hd. I think that would be really interesting. But, like, all these rules, don't eat this, don't do that, do this, don't do that. And, like, a person trying to do everything right could really drive themselves crazy. Right? And I don't know if you saw, like, I did that how to ADHD episode with Jessica recently, and we were talking about what happens before you get pregnant, and she was talking about her journey going through, like, ivf. And that's one of the things she said, right? She was trying really hard to do everything right. Cause there's all these guidelines, and you're going to get different information from people, right? Like, when I was pregnant, my OB was like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, you can have a little bit of sushi now and then. Right? But if you look at the Internet, it's like, don't do that. And so, again, there's that overwhelm. The rules aren't clear. There's different information from different sources. And if you're one of those people who's really fixated on doing everything right, you're at a propensity, I think, to stress yourself out a lot, to get to go down rabbit holes. Right. I think we have that greater capacity to go down rabbit holes and maybe to stress about, like, a lot of particular outcomes that couldn't happen, or even to get way ahead of yourself and be like, I'm not gonna be able to do this, because what if this happens? What if that happens? What if this happens? Right? And so that's gonna add a lot of stress on your plate and. And again, kind of feed into that overwhelm.
- [13:06]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah.
- [13:07]
Dusty Chapura
On the other hand, you know, I've had people who went into labor and they didn't have their hospital bag pack. They didn't have anything ready because they, like, Weren't, you know, they, like, just had trouble. You know, they kept knowing that they needed to get around to it, but they didn't get around to it. And so, like, there's a. There are a lot of things that you need to know about pregnancy to keep yourself safe, to help make sure your baby's growing correctly. But there's probably a lot of things you're gonna wanna know about labor. And then there's a lot of things to know about newborn care. And if you're more like kind of the type of adceer, that it's maybe more inattentive or more disorganized, you may feel, like, not prepared and a bit overwhelmed by all the different things and keeping track of all the stuff. Right. There's so many appointments, there's so much to do. And yeah, that's a lot to manage cognitively. Right?
- [13:55]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah. And like, also what we were talking about earlier too, it's not just having the baby. You then bring the baby home and you have to have your home ready before the baby comes because there are, you know, like, what, so many things.
- [14:11]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah, well, and there's like a lot of safety things, Right. There's also, like, a lot of safety things during pregnancy that you might not be used to doing. Right. So, like, everyday stuff. And I, again, I said this like in the episode with Jessica, but, like, you know, she was on pelvic rest. And this is a really. Pelvic rest, a really common thing that we do for various conditions in pregnancy that could lead to, you know, that could lead to sort of outcomes we don't want. And so because she was on pelvic rest, she wasn't supposed to lift anything heavier than five pounds. But my daughter ran to her and she, like, picked up my daughter without thinking. Right. And I was like, oh, my God,
- [14:44]
Trail Map Friend 1
don't pick her up.
- [14:45]
Dusty Chapura
Right. But like, I did the same thing during pregnancy. I was working at a liquor store, lifting box. So I would, like, pick up these heavy boxes and people would be like, what are you doing? If you've lived your whole life being able to do things, certain things, and now you're not supposed to do those things. You have to be carrying a consciousness and awareness of, like, that you're doing something different. Right. And we know that a big part of ADHD is that lack of self monitoring, that inability to, like, you know, if we're distracted, if we're in our heads, there's a good chance that you might, yeah, take an ibuprofen for a headache. Forgetting, especially before you're showing. Right. And there's not that physical or visual reminder that you're pregnant. You might say yes to that, like deli meat or whatever. Say that again. Cause there was a big thumb. You might say yes to that, like deli meat or whatever. Right. Who can say? So I think, you know, knowing and remembering and staying on top of all the things can be really, really overwhelming. And on top of that, there are some, like, medical things to know, like, for example, that people with ADHD are at higher risk of ppd. But also studies have shown that if ADHD impacted birthers, whether they knew they had ADHD at the time of the birth and whether they were on medication or not, their babies were at greater risk of preterm birth, preeclampsia, and NICU admissions. And we don't know why. We don't know if it's causal or correlational, but if you have adhd, you are more likely to have a NICU admission, a preterm birth, preeclampsia. And that. And that, that has something to do with having adhd. That has nothing to do with whether you're on meds or not. And, and so what is that about? Right. We don't know yet because nobody's really looking at it. But even just having ADHD is, Could, could create pregnancy complications.
- [16:26]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah. Which is something you need to know because I was just thinking, my wife has. Was talking to one of her aunts at, earlier this week actually, and they mentioned something in their medical history, and my wife was like, I should have known that because that requires me to take more prenatal vitamins. How am I finding this out, you know, nine years after I gave birth the first time.
- [16:56]
Dusty Chapura
Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I think and, and this is the work that, that Alex Bacon and I are doing. So. Alex Bacon is a registered midwife in Vancouver. She's of the Canadians Canadian Midwife Society. And, and so, like, the whole thing that we're advocating for is the idea that, like, neurodivergence is something that should be on people's radar and should be screened for by birth workers. And really, I mean, I think that neurodivergence is something that should be on people's radar in general. Right. When we're talking about inclusion, equity, diversity. Right. Like, we're starting to see it more this idea that, like, neurodivergence is one of those things that can factor into how people show up in all kinds of ways and how we like what we need to know about people. But like whether you are employer and you're having, you know, you're hiring somebody, you're going to want to know if that person has ADHD or autism because like there might be some needs that they have that are different or they might show up different. And if you are a doctor and you have a patient who has ADHD or even like a, even like a dentist. Right. It's crazy to me that, that people don't know this because, you know, if I'm a, if I'm, yeah, like if I'm a dentist, if I'm a doctor, if I'm any kind of medical health professional and I have a client with adhd, I need to know because like that person might struggle to get to their appointments more, that person might struggle to like fill out their paperwork more. That person might, you know, have various different kinds of issues that could lead to worse health outcomes if I'm not accommodating them. Right. And I think that there are very like real impacts. I know that I've had, you know, doctors and dentists and other medical professionals that I've stopped seeing because of like rejection sensitivity or I just could not get to the appointments on time and I got too many missed appointment fees, you know, paperwork that I should have filled out that never got filled out. Like there's all these layers of what it is to be like a patient that I think are impacted by adhd. And if a medical professional doesn't understand those implications and can't accommodate just like they would accommodate any other disability, well, that person's gonna have a worse, worse health outcome. Right? I absolutely think that's true for, for birth workers, whether you're a midwife or an ob.
- [19:03]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah, absolutely. Because it is. Working with your brain differences within the medical community is hard just in general because a lot of what we would perceive as like, we're going to have, you know, like this paperwork, like I don't fill this out, they're going to be mad at me. And I've had appointments where, you know, they're like, oh, why didn't, why did it take you so long to schedule this follow up? And I'm like, I feel really bad talking about this now. You know, being like, I don't want, I'm like, it's hard for me to schedule appointments. They're like, oh, well, you just make the call. It's not just that for me it's, it's more.
- [19:44]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [20:07]
Trail Map Friend 1
Awkward time to ask this, but. Hey, did you download the trail map?
- [20:11]
Trail Map Friend 2
Yeah. No, I don't need to.
- [20:12]
Trail Map Friend 1
I don't understand. You're trusting your signal out here.
- [20:15]
Trail Map Friend 2
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network. And if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.
- [20:21]
Trail Map Friend 1
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [20:24]
Trail Map Friend 2
We'll just use your phone as a flashlight.
- [20:27]
T-Mobile Advertiser
With America's best network and T Satellite, we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for free. More lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store.
- [20:43]
T-Mobile Advertiser Details
Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklib speed test intelligence data 2h 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and 35 connection charge per line. Credit's in your balance too. If you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example 299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience beyond your $10 a month. Harbor News Monthly cancel anytime visit t mobile.com
- [21:08]
Dusty Chapura
yeah, like it's, you know, there's just more challenges and we have the framework, we have the disability framework, as in medical, like in the medical community, to accommodate, say, someone with other kind of physiological or neurological or intellectual disability. Right. Like we, we can. There's types of disability we recognize would make it harder for a person to follow through, but we don't apply those to like ADC or, or to autistic people. Right. And you know, Alex, one of the things that Alex said to me, there's a term I can't remember what, what it is. I wish I could remember. But basically this term is used in the medical community and it means like, it means like this person's a bad patient. Like, I don't know if it's treatment resistant or like something resistant or something difficult. There's some term that she used. I can't remember what it was. But it's a term that gets tossed around in the back end of the medical community. Right. We wouldn't hear it as patients, but doctors might say it to each other. And it basically just means that, like, this person's a flake and they're not gonna follow through. Right? And so if we didn't know that, that that patient had ADHD or that person had adhd, we might see them as being difficult on purpose. And this is actually one of the things that was written about in the book. Autistic and Pregnant. Give me a second. I'm gonna look up the name who wrote this book. Cause I think it's important. One second. Pregnant, Autistic and expecting. Okay. So a person named Alexis Quinn wrote this book called Autistic and Expecting. And that's one of the things that the author talked about in the book was the double empathy problem in being autistic and having care providers. Right? This idea that the care provider might misinterpret you as being difficult or unlikable or rude. And if that care provider is perceiving you that way, well, what's the level of care that they're going to give, right? If they don't like you, if they think you're kind of a hassle? Like, I'm sure we would love to think that, you know, all care providers provide an equal standard of care regardless. But, like, the reality is, like, you know, that is there's bias is going to come in there. If you've got patient or a person that you're caring for and they are challenging to you and they don't show up for their appointments, or they never come prepared, or you go to their house and their house is messy. Right. This is something we need to also think about in terms of, like, the out. Like when we're talking about intersectionality. Well, it's not just white people who are adhd, right? Or autistic. You know, at least in Canada. Here in Canada, we have a really big problem with indigenous mothers being criminalized at birth. And there's actually a practice that we're trying to stop, but, like, it's still happening where, like, even before these women leave the hospital with their babies, sometimes they get their babies taken away by Child Protective Services because they're, They're. They're sort of flagged as unfit parents for some reason or another. And a lot of that is agreed with. But we have like a colonial. A history of colonial violence in Canada of, Of Indigenous mothers being separated from their babies. Okay, so now let's say you've got an. There's like thumping coming from somewhere.
- [24:10]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Sorry.
- [24:13]
Dusty Chapura
So let's say now that you've got an indigenous mother with ADHD and she's got baby, and you've got a social worker or a nurse coming to do a home care visit, and that new mother's apartment is, like, super messy because she's got adhd. Right. So if we have any kind of a worker walking into a situation where the home is messy, the person's missing their appointments, they're not filling out paperwork. Well, if that person is also now, like, black or brown, there's an increased likelihood that that care provider might say, oh, well, maybe the child's not safe. Or like, attribute it to something, you know, more. More sort of more serious. Right. And so, you know, luckily for me, I'm a white person. I have privilege. My home was a total disaster when my baby came home, but nobody in the hospital was looking at me sideways just because I didn't fill out some paperwork or I missed an appointment or my house is messy. But they could. Right. And I think that statistics show, and like, history has shown us that they are looking that way at black and brown women and black and brown birthers. And we see that in the. In the system of child removals in Canada from indigenous women. So, like, what chance does an indigenous woman with ADHD who's not getting any support. Right. She's already got all these strikes against her. She's already got people looking at her sideways. So this kind of stuff, like understanding how neurodivergence shows up in the patient care provider relationship. Absolutely. So important.
- [25:41]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Absolutely. Can't imagine the pain of having your child taken away like that is. And not for nothing that's wrong with you, just how they perceive you.
- [25:58]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah. And so that's. That was the. I wish I could remember the term, but I can't think of it. I think it was. Maybe it was treatment resistant, but, like, this was the term that Alex told me that doctors have when they have a patient who is, like, they perceive to be difficult. Right. And how often is that term being applied to people with adhd when they really are doing their best?
- [26:19]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah, absolutely. Because it is often. Yeah. ADHD from the outside does not look. It just looks like you're not trying to. Often it's like, even if you're trying really hard, it's like, well, it's like, why don't you just do the thing? I would if I could. But. Yeah. I think your point of the intersectionality of ADHD also really applies because also white. I. I know I get away with a lot of adhd. I'm viewed more as eccentric rather than a problem because of how I do things. And it's. I mean, this is why I always get so mad about ADHD as a superpower thing, because I'm like, that applies to white men. If you can get away with doing all the things, ADHD can feel like a superpower, where you're like, hey, yeah, I don't have to do 90% of this other stuff that other people have to do. Yeah, maybe that would make things a lot easier for you.
- [27:21]
Dusty Chapura
Well, and even the stuff like, okay, if. If a white man is having a problem with a customer service issue and he gets angry because he's got emotional dysregulation, he's liable to get results, right? If a black woman with ADHD gets angry, like, she's liable, you know, to be seen as stereotypical, angry, loud black woman, right? So even how, even how our more negative aspects of ADHD manifest, I think, you know, we have to think about the societal lens that they're being perceived through and recognize the ways that, like, yeah, these different, these different marginalized identities are just going to keep adding on to difficulties that people experience. And so with pregnancy in particular, I think that how, how you're pregnant and how you labor, like, it really does matter. It matters for bonding, right? If at the end of the day, some I have been asked, like, well, why does this matter, right? Why does it matter that we're talking about ADC pregnancy? Well, there, there are ideas out there that there are some more, More attachment issues between ADHD parents and children, right? There's a lot of talk about anxious attachment, and there's been some suggestions that, like, an ADHD parent might be more disorganized, they might be more distractible, distracted, unfocused. And can that impact attachment issues for a child? And a child who has ADHD is going to be more rejection sensitive, maybe more emotionally sensitive. So it's maybe even more important that you're attuned with your child, okay? And we know that a lot of ADHD adults have anxious attachment, okay? And we know that it's 71% heritability rate. So there's. I think there's at, at the very least, there's something to consider there. And how you give birth will impact your ability to bond with and attach to your infant. And if you have a traumatic birth, if you have a birth that was terrible, you are going to struggle to bond more with your infant. If you are struggling with breastfeeding and you're not getting the support that you need and you're overwhel and you're not sleeping. Those kinds of things can absolutely impact bonding. And we want to make sure, like, we know now that bonding is one of the most important things that has to happen for like infant and child well being. Right. And that like everything that happens before the age of five can really have such a big impact on the brain. So why wouldn't we care about the experience that a birther is having that is going to lead to first few days and weeks after life. Right. That's going to set the whole tone.
- [29:44]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Can you speak to what attachment, a anxious attachment style is?
- [29:52]
Dusty Chapura
Well, in late, in layperson's terms, yeah. So my understanding of attachment, and I know that like attachment get. Can sometimes get conflated into like, oh, everything is, everything is attachment, but attachment, sort of the theory of attachment is this idea that like some of your foundational relationships that you had with your caregivers or parents is going to sort of form the basis for how you try to, how you try to connect with others. Right. And so there is secure attachment, secure and healthy attachment where you know that your emotional, physical needs are going to be met. So as a young child, you experience a feeling of safety, you experience a feeling of being, having your needs met both emotionally and physically. Right. So you're not neglected physically, but you're also, you're attuned to your parent, your parent is attuned to you. When you want attention from your parent, you're going to get it. And, and attunement is attunement. And attachment is like something that has really been scientifically validated. Like children and babies want eye contact. They want, you know, touch, they want to, they want their cries to be answered. And when they get those things, they tend to develop into adults with a healthy and stable sense of self esteem and sense of self. And that healthy and stable sense of self esteem and sense of self then helps them to have healthy relationships with other people where they can perceive better when they are being disrespected or when something is off in the relationship, they are able to set healthy boundaries. They have a clear sense of like, where they end and the other person begins. So they can make better choices around what's okay for them as well as showing up better in their relationships. But when that attachment process gets interrupted, now we've got all these different kinds of insecure attachment. So there could be anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized attachment. And what I often hear said about people with ADHD is a Lot of people with ADHD have what's called anxious attachment. And so that's where our needs weren't being consistently met by our caregiver. And so we become really, like, fearful of losing our attachment to someone. Like, we don't know that it's always going to be there. And that comes from, like, this really, really core place where as infants, our needs weren't consistently met. Right. And so as adults, we grow up being afraid to lose relationships. Right. We're like, like, we're literally anxious about losing that relationship. So whether it shows up in romantic relationships, friendships, or anywhere, anxious attachment manifests as always being afraid that the other person is mad, always being afraid that the other person's gonna leave you. What does this sound like? Sounds a lot like rejection sensitivity. Right? Always worry. Yeah. If you're always worried that you're going to lose the relationship, you don't. You're not going to be able to set healthy boundaries because you're going to want to. You're. You're always going to sacrifice your wants and needs for the. You. You're never going to risk losing the relationship. So you're going to let your boundaries be crossed. Right. You're going to be taking a lot more responsibility for the other person than is then is really healthy. Because again, you're going to feel like it's your job to make sure that everything's okay in the relationship. Because at the heart of it all, you are the. You are more afraid of losing a person and their attachment to you than anything else. And so that's gonna supersede you being able to have your own healthy, like, personality, your own healthy boundaries and centering your own needs. And so the idea behind attachment is that it starts in childhood and it has sort of like an unconscious, like, ripple effect out to our different relationships. And, and there is some critique that, like, people are attributing too much to attachment these days. Like, I get it. Like, you know, we latch onto something culturally as an idea, and then we, like, totally run with it and we, you know, we start seeing, like, little anxious attachment, you know, ghouls in every. Creeping in every corner. And, and, and for sure, like, not everything is due to your attachment style. But I think there's something to be said here for, like, anxious attachment, rejection, sensitivity, having, having multi generations of. Of ADHD adults, you know, in a family, before we knew what ADHD was, how that might show up in someone's parenting as distractibility, emotional volatility, you know, all that stuff, right?
- [34:00]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I can totally see how we, we, we run with things and it becomes everything, but then it's like pendulum swings a little too far one way and we really want it to be kind of more.
- [34:14]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah. And at the end, at the end of the day, if my, if my sort of concerns around bonding and attachment are, are unfounded, which for some people, they may be at the end of the day, I think there's something to be said for a good pregnancy and labor experience in and of itself. Nine months is no short amount of time. A lot of distress can be, can happen in nine months. A lot of things can be impacted in your life, in your career, in your well being, in your relationship. And I think that if you can have a good pregnancy experience and look back on it fondly and feel good about it, like, I think that's a worthy end unto itself.
- [34:53]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Yeah. I mean, it's just like environmental policy if it turns out we're wrong. Well, the only thing we did is we made the world a better place. So I think that's.
- [35:04]
Dusty Chapura
Yeah, exactly.
- [35:05]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
Great things for people to focus on because you want to be able to look back and be like, yeah, I did what I could. Like, I think this is often making me roll back in my head to what we were talking about in the beginning too, about how people will get in their head about trying to be perfectionistic about this. And what my thing as a parent has always been is like, I can only do the best that I can do. I can't. I will never be a perfect parent. In fact, that would set up. That would also be bad.
- [35:45]
Dusty Chapura
They need some adversity to overcome and they need to build resilience. Right. Yeah. And also, I think one of the things that inspired me to do this work is I saw a lot of people in various Facebook groups for, like, women with ADHD saying, like, I want to have a kid so bad, but I don't think I could go off my meds. I'm so scared to go off my meds. I'd love to have a child, but I just, I don't, like, I don't believe in myself or trust in myself as a person with adhd. And like, I thought that was like super sad. And I think that if people want to have. I'm a big fan of people having kids. I think if people want to have kids, they should have kids and they should have the support to feel that they're going, that they have a chance to be a good parent. Right. Is it harder to be a good parent with adhd, Honestly, I think so. I know it is for me. I think I need support. I think from what I've talked about, what I've. What I've learned in talking to other parents with adhd, like, yeah, we have some. Some challenges to overcome. But that's not to say that it. That's not to say that it can't be done. And I want people to feel a sense of. If they desire to be a parent, I want them to feel a sense of hope that they can. I don't think it's fair that they feel like their ADHD or their medication use precludes them from being parents because, like, man, there are some really bad parents out there who've never stopped to ask themselves if they would be good parents. And if people want to be parents and they care enough to be asking that question, I think they deserve a chance and they deserve to feel like they can be well.
- [37:05]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
And I think there is something to be said that, like, the ADHD temperament, kids love that. Like. Like what we were talking about this afternoon. When I go to my daughter's lacrosse game, I know I'm going to be swarmed by the other siblings that aren't playing lacrosse because they're like, you're an adult that will talk to us and you'll interact with us and make jokes with us, even though, you know, all our parents are over there on the sideline. But we're going to go swarm to you because we know you're going to be silly with us. All right, well, it looks like we're coming up on time. Is there anything you'd like to leave the audience with?
- [37:43]
Dusty Chapura
Just that, I guess if you're listening to this and you are a pregnant person with adhd, I've tried to create some resources. One is on, like, on my website. If you go to vancouveradhcoaching.com There is a notion template that I've made that you can use on Notion that is like a pregnancy book with a lot of information and support. If you're not really, like a notion person and you're not techie, you can also download this workbook as a PDF and you can print it. You can always, like, hit me up if you need support. Like, I really. I really think that people with ADHD who are pregnant who want support, I want to give them as much support as I can. So hit me up.
- [38:18]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I know I learned a ton of stuff, so I'm sure people are really going to appreciate this.
- [38:25]
Dusty Chapura
Yay. Thanks Will.
- [38:28]
William Curb
Thanks again to Dusty for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. If you want to find out more about Dusty's work, just go to vancouveradhdcoaching.com or find her on the socials.
- [38:40]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
But before you go, let's do a
- [38:42]
William Curb
rundown of today's top tips.
- [38:45]
Trail Map Friend 2
1.
- [38:45]
William Curb
It's important to recognize the gap in ADHD research related to women in pregnancy. This means that you need to be aware of what the current research suggests. This also means that you have to be more of an advocate for your needs during pregnancy because it's possible that you will be more informed about your ADHD in pregnancy than your caregivers.
- [39:03]
Podcast Co-host or Guest
2.
- [39:03]
William Curb
With that in mind, there is a need to prioritize building a support system, including healthcare providers knowledgeable about ADHD as well as community support support for emotional and practical assistance. 3. There is a likely impact of ADHD on pregnancy related executive functions such as organization and time management, and so it will be important to develop and employ strategies or tools to mitigate these challenges. And this is also where that support network can come in extra handy. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 184 and now for your moment of dad. Two windmills are standing next to each other in a field. One asks the other, hey, what kind of music do you like to listen to? And the other one replies, well, I'm a big metal fan.
- [39:58]
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