B (3:19)

Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, because as a pop culture reference, you know, there's all sorts of things about inflammation that are less than scientifically accurate. And so guess, like, specifically for this study, they were really, they were doing like these blood sample collections and you know, looking at the cytokine levels and being like, hey, like, what, What are those levels? But I guess your question is like, what is inflammation? And that is a hard straight up definition without. When you don't go into like, oh, this, these levels. But it is the, your basically like your immune system being reactive to what's going on.

A (4:07)

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And they did measure what they called cytokine levels. They had different ways of thinking about this. And this was essentially looking at the small proteins. Sorry, I'm going to read this because I did, I did my own search into it. The small proteins used by systems to communicate, essentially those are the cytokine levels. And that is what they were. They were trying to measure as part of predicting both whether they had inflammation and also whether that inflammation was related to later ADHD symptoms. And yeah, like I said, it wasn't a diagnosis. So. So they did find a relationship, which was interesting because, you know, it was, it does indicate that there is potentially an association. And I will say for me, this is one of the first times because when you said we should research this, I was interested in this because I've heard about the fact that there could be a relationship that isn't genetic. But I have to say I have been a little bit biased against this idea that there is something, you know, that can be a part associated with ADHD that isn't genetic because it feels like that's always used in a. How do I put this? Like a not good faith way.

B (5:41)

Yeah, yeah. Often it's blaming the parents for how a kid turned out. It's like, oh, yeah, you didn't feed them enough broccoli and now they have adhd. Yeah, it's just like this is. Yeah, not. It's just bad faith. It's these things where they're just trying to sell you a supplement or something to cure your adhd.

A (6:01)

Often Exactly. And, you know, as I was saying to Will, like, I just recently had my third baby and I, you know, the conversation about being calm, being healthy, like, that's always a part of the conversation of, you know, giving birth. And I'm trying to, you know, remember that, but it's, it's nine months. Like, the chances that I'm gonna be relaxed and not inflamed for a whole nine months is. That's a, That's a big ask.

B (6:31)

Yeah. And I, I mean, I think that's an important thing to also consider when we're looking at this study because they didn't have like, a lot of tests during the pregnancy. It was, you know, like one test during the third trimester. So while that might be able to like, be great with, like, looking at chronic inflammation, if you also are just having a very stressful day getting to the hospital, you might be having that in response too.

A (6:57)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, for us, you know, there's. You're doing a whole bunch of tests, there's a whole bunch of things going on. You have toddlers, like, at this point, I have two other little kids that are, that are creating, you know, a little bit of stress compared to having my first baby. So, yeah, there's all of these different pieces that could affect it. And, and I will say, to their credit, they did recognize that. And so for them, this was, if we jump back to, you know, what they were really looking for and why they said that this is important because adhd, in their words, was so costly and, you know, difficult to alter. So being able to evaluate the merits of whether it would make sense to do deeper research that requires more testing over time, which is obviously very, you know, a lot of work for, for mums could be necessary. So I'm, I'm really curious about this, what this would mean. I mean, like, they've done this study, they found that there's an association. Somebody, somebody then goes ahead and does a deeper study into this. What would it change if they did find that there was some serious connection between inflammation and adhd?

B (8:25)

I mean, it would change some of the recommendations on, you know, what we're asking mothers to do to reduce that forehand. Like, we, you know, there's like already recommendations for things like folate and all these other, like prenatal vitamins and stuff. And, you know, maybe adding stuff that can help with anti inflammation could be something that they're like, hey, yeah, this will also help, you know, the. Because it's also, again, these are, we're not looking at an ADHD diagnosis here. We're looking at these symptoms. And so it's being like, oh yeah, we're just looking to reduce the chance that they're having these symptoms being part of, you know, their growing up. Because we all know ADHD is hard.

A (9:08)

Yeah. And you do get a lot more criticism and, and you know, it can be difficult to be in a classroom if you struggle with ADHD symptoms. I mean, we could talk about whether this means we should change the classroom or whatever, but you know.

B (9:24)

Yeah.

A (9:26)

Besides the point of this conversation.

B (9:28)

Yeah. And one of the interesting pieces that I was thinking about while reading this too, and based on what you were saying earlier with like, you know, like seeing this as a non genetic thing, but it could still be in this idea of epigenetics where you have like the gene expression and certain environmental factors making it so that these genes are turned on, quote, unquote. And so it's being like, oh yeah, maybe we can just, if we see this inflammation connection, maybe there are other further line things too that we can also change how these genes are expressed when you're an adult.

A (10:04)

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, you know, they said maternal inflammation predicted teacher report of child ADHD symptoms at a significant level, which is kind of an, you know, it feels crazy because the two things are so far apart. The, the study was so like you had so many holes in it in terms of, you know, the number of people and all of those things. They could easily have found a non significant result. But yeah, I hope that if they do more of this research and they find this is important and this does affect epigenetic switches, that they don't just make this another thing that moms have to deal with. Because as somebody who had a baby last year, that would not be viable or helpful in any way.

B (10:55)

Yeah. Because often times there's just like, yeah, moms need to do all these things plus all these other things. And if you're not, you're just being a bad mom and it's like, you know, that's telling moms that it's very stressful and probably not helping.

A (11:08)

Yeah. You probably increased information just by having that conversation. So yeah, definitely hoping that if they do find this, it comes with a little bit more of a systems based solution.

B (11:24)

Yeah. And I'm just. Do you think there's anything else we want to jump into on this one?

A (11:31)

I think really just the, this is kind of for us, as part of the conversations we've been having, the first time we've looked at things that are a little bit below their brain and looking at the body and this idea of inflammation. So definitely something I think would be great to. To dig a little bit deeper on, because it is an area that gets misrepresented to the point where you don't even know what to believe. Like you said, epigenetics, et cetera, et cetera. But other than that, I think just regardless of, you know, if you're struggling with adhd, keep it in mind, but don't hold it too tightly because it's still a really emerging space.

B (12:15)

Yeah. And I do think there is going to be stuff here that we see eventually, but what that is is hard to predict.

A (12:26)

Hello. So you were just listening to a research recap. I'm Skye Waterson of Unconventional Organization. If you like that there's some more information about ADHD and support for you at unconventionalorganization.com you can go ahead and check that out. Lots of free resources, lots of strategies. And if you want to join our programs, you can do that as well. And we'll see you there. Organization.