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Hacking Your ADHD
Sticks, Stones, and Systemic Issues: The ADHD Bullying Study with Brooke Schnittman
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- [00:00]
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Brooke Schnitman
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Brooke Schnitman
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- [01:33]
William Curb
welcome to Hacking youg ADHD. I'm your host William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help
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Co-host or Interviewer
you work with your ADHD brain.
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William Curb
Hey team. We often talk about the internal struggles of adhd. The messy desk, the forgotten appointments. But we don't always talk about how the outside world reacts to those traits. Today I'm joined by Brooke Schnitman, an ADHD coach and best selling author of Activate youe ADHD Potential. Brooke has worked with thousands of individuals to help them develop sustainable systems for focus and emotional regulation. But today she's here to talk about a global study she conducted on the link between ADHD and bullying.
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Co-host or Interviewer
So in today's episode, we're talking about
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William Curb
how this study was conducted and what we can garner from that data. But we're also discussing this invisible disability penalty where our Symptoms are misinterpreted as character flaws and how masking can actually prevent us from progressing because we're too busy being chameleons.
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Co-host or Interviewer
And we're also going to cover some practical ways to identify safe people and
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William Curb
build a reciprocal support system that helps buffer against the impact of chronic criticism.
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Co-host or Interviewer
So if you'd like to follow along
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William Curb
on the show notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 283 alright, keep on listening. To find out how to rewrite a nervous system that's been on high alert since fourth grade.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Tell us a little bit about the study about bullying here.
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Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, so bullying is definitely part of my identity. I have been bullied since age of eight, to my knowledge, all the way until now. And I'm 42 years old. But it had the greatest impact on me from age 8 to 35. And when I started coaching, which happened to be at the age of 35, I understood that I wasn't alone in this and that there were so many adults that I was working with that were starting to say the same kind of thing. Like I was bullied in childhood. I'm identifying that I'm being micromanaged multiple times at work, I'm being yelled at by my boss, my relationships with partners are being like this, you know, so there were all these things that they were saying, chronic criticism, exclusion, misunderstood understanding that. I thought to myself, is this something that is just occurring in my community or is this more of a global systemic issue with adults and adhd? So that's what led me to starting this survey.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Tell me a little bit, how was the survey conducted? Like who was filling it out?
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Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, so the people who filled out the survey were self selected. Right? They chose to fill it out. They self identified as having ADHD, they were 18 and older and they were asked questions such as, were you bullied as a child? Were you bullied as an adult? If so, in what settings were you the bully? And what kind of strategies did you have to overcome a lot of the trauma that came with the bullying? So I was curious on like the strategies and the struggles and the stories behind all of these adults.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And so when you were asking these questions like, were you bullied? Was this kind of a. Like that being the specific question or was it asking about like things that happened that were would then be considered bullying?
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Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, good question. So the question was point blank, were you bullied? And in the survey itself, it defined what bullying is. So bullying, a lot of people ask what it is. It's a repeated targeted behavior, and it involves a power imbalance and causes harm where being targeted has difficulty defending themselves. So there's three core elements of it. There's repetition, power imbalance, and harm. And what happened in the survey, it wasn't just quantitative, yes, no answers. There were qualitative answers. So they then happened to look at the qualitative answers that each person described, and it was actual bullying that they described.
- [05:38]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, because that was exactly what I was thinking of. Like, it's really easy for us to misinterpret bullying, either being like, yes, that is bullying, or with adhd, sometimes we're a little bit oblivious to things that are going on. They're like, oh, that's just how people are.
- [05:51]
Brooke Schnitman
Well, exactly. And that is what I found in this study. It's so fascinating. So many of the respondents in this survey didn't realize that, in fact, what they were receiving was bullying until they met with an ADHD professional. So they thought it was a, them problem, that they were just, you know, on the outside, that they needed to change who they were as people until they identified that, A, they have ADHD and B, this is bullying and it's not okay.
- [06:20]
Co-host or Interviewer
So I want to kind of go into those aspects of what bullying are, because I think one of the that also is creates some, like, confusion for people. Like, what does it, like, mean to have a power imbalance?
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Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. So one person or group has more power. So let's say an authority figure, like a boss, a teacher or a parent. Right. This happened with me. My teacher would bully me and would purposely do things in the classroom to call me out in fourth grade. So one thing is, I remember there was a spelling test. Right. I studied so hard, I got a hundred on it. I all of a sudden didn't put my name on the test. Right. So her new rule after that on that incident was, Let me deduct 20 points from your test because you didn't put your name on it. This was in fourth grade, and she started that rule on that day when I didn't put my name on the test. So there were multiple occurrences like that that she did not do to the other people. Bosses as an adult, screaming manipulation, constant micromanagement when they're not doing that to other people, Social exclusion. Like, actually not inviting you specifically as an employee to an event where everyone else is invited. Right. A parent can do that. Right. So these are authority figures, social power. So with adhd, we know that social status is always, like, very often impacted because we have RSD we have working memory issues. We have executive function challenges. So that impacts our social status. And when there's people higher on the social ladder, then they're more popular. There's group dynamics. So that's a power imbalance as well. Emotional leverage. So if you're dependent on something or someone. Right. Or manipulation. Systemic advantage. Advantage. So neurotypical norms over neurodivergent traits.
- [08:16]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of those things that feel like some people, like, only see power dynamics in that, you know, like, straight, like, boss, employee kind of thing. But, yeah, the social standing and the. Just your ability to fight back is a big aspect.
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Brooke Schnitman
I feel for me personally, I can speak that I had a hard time fighting back. I would freeze in situations my working memory wasn't working and I. I didn't know until after the situation that I was being bullied and I could speak up for myself. So I would replay the situation like an hour later. I would tell my parents or I would tell friends and be like, wait a second, like, you didn't say anything. Or I would have those conversations in the mirror and be like, ah, I should have said this. Right. And that's so hard for us with adhd because when we are threatened or are not understanding the social cues, we're misinterpreting it and then we're not standing up for ourselves in those situations.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, it's. Our parasympathetic nervous system is, like, switching on and then that causes, you know, like, these physiological changes that make it so that it's harder physically harder for us to think.
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Brooke Schnitman
We can't think. There is no thinking. We're not feeling safe, we're feeling threatened. It's like the bear is running after us and our executive functions are turning off.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And it's. I think it's an. That's an incredibly important point for people to understand is it's not like, oh, I was just. I, like, froze in the moment. And it's like, no, this is like you had physiological changes that, like, made this really hard for you. It was not just you not reaching the moment. It was. There's a lot of baggage with adhd.
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Brooke Schnitman
There's a lot, a lot of preparation that you have to try to train your brain to remember certain things that if a situation happens, do this. But then in that situation, your brain is freezing. So how do you do that and recall the memory? When you're not accessing working memory, it's not going to go into your recall. So there's. Yeah, there's lots of challenges.
- [10:06]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Okay. And so I guess repeated targeting is. That's, I think fairly understandable, like more than once. I'm interested in that definition too because I feel like there could be like singular instance of someone like exerting power over you and causing harm.
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Brooke Schnitman
Correct. So as the definition I took from the CDC and what I've seen out there, it's not a one time conflict. Listen, I'm not the expert here as far as bullying, but I, I am a lived experience person and I'm, I just want to share these studies. There is coercion and we are all coerced as humans. So a one time thing can look more like coercion than bullying. And I know that's a gray area right there.
- [10:48]
Co-host or Interviewer
And it's an interesting thing because you could be if you're. Look, we're looking at this from the victim side of things. But as a aggressor side, a bully could have multiple targets. They are repeating this activity to multiple people.
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Brooke Schnitman
Right, that's right. That's right. Yeah. No, that's a really good question. Really good question.
- [11:05]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And so then I guess the third piece is this idea of harm because that's, I think, also something that I know a lot of times I downplay things for myself. I'm like, that wasn't so bad. I could imagine that could be a problem too where people are just like, well, feeling like they deserve what they got.
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Brooke Schnitman
Right. And until you talk it out with a professional, you don't know. Right. And that's part of the issue is that a lot of people do not know that they are being bullied and the behavior of harm causes emotional, psychological, social and professional harm. So we're not just talking about overt like you see in childhood, where someone's teasing you or they're fighting. Right. We can talk about COVID where they're excluding you and it's happening over and over again. So it's not as in your face. So all of those things.
- [11:56]
Co-host or Interviewer
Well, and it's levels of harm are really interesting to think about too because we often think of like, oh, it needs to be physical or emotional and have like this immediate impact kind of thing. But it's teasing, I think is a great example here where maybe you're getting teased about something and so you don't go like, you're like, oh, they're, they're teasing me because I have to keep having, getting hurt on the playground. And now I have to, I don't want to go see the nurse because they're going to say something.
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Brooke Schnitman
Exactly. Exactly. Or like the. I was just, you know, I was just joking. I'm just being, you know, I'm just being honest. Or remember, no offense, but. Or I'm trying to help you or you're too sensitive. Right. It's all the things that we have heard so many times as ADHDers that it makes us confused. And also it's hard to make friends as someone who has adhd because very often we're socially stunted because we don't have the social skills to make friends and understand ourselves, to make the right types of friends and the right choices, and we have impulsivity and so on. And I know I'm going on a tangent here, but when you have a friend who also might be bullying you. Right. It gets confusing.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Because it doesn't feel. Might not feel bad in the moment, but it might feel bad later where you're like. Or it might feel bad later and you're like, justifying it. But it's either. It's one of those things where it's like, this is affecting my future behavior because of how this dynamic is working and not in a good way.
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Brooke Schnitman
Yep, exactly. Exactly. So it. It gets very complicated with the neurodivergent population who are trying so hard to be liked and people pleasing and then still also in the moment are having a hard time understanding, like, is this actually happening? And in adulthood, it looks so different too, that it's hard to identify.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah.
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Brooke Schnitman
A single severe incident can function like bullying. So, for example, public humiliation by a boss in front of an entire company, a teacher shaming a student in front of a classroom, a social media post that destroys someone's reputation, a partner revealing private information to gain control. So that can be. Even though reputation isn't a part of that classic academic definition, the harm and power imbalance can make one incident psychologically significant.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Okay, Yeah, I can think of some of those. And you had some, like, some really surprising, not surprising, but very striking results from this survey. Right?
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Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. Yeah. So in the general population, 20 to 30% of children get bullied. Right. And in studies that I've seen out there, 47% of children with ADHD are bullied. Now, in my study, again, people self selected themselves to take this study. So I just want to put that disclaimer out there, but 90.7% of the 162 people who filled out this survey were bullied as children. And these were adults filling it out. Throughout the world, 82% were bullied as adults. Of the 162 people who filled it out, 70% were bullied across the lifespan, both children and adults. And then as far as adulthood, 63% were bullied in the workplace. 54% of the adults who took the survey who were bullied as adults were also bullied in the relationships. And the surprising number is that 14.2% were bullied online. You would think it would be more, but the highest number of bullying incidents in adulthood was in the workplace. And then one of the other surprising things were that 22.4% of the adults who completed this became the bully. You know, because victims. Right. Victims become victims. So half of the people sought out therapy and. And it missed the mark. And then they didn't understand, again, how to control the symptoms, how to cope with bullying until they understood that a. It was ADHD and they got the tools for it.
- [15:46]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Yeah. I do think the becoming the bully thing is kind of interesting too, because it is something where I'm like, oh, yeah, there are times that I've, you know, like, teased people, like, in what thought was a good natured manner. And then, you know, later they're like, that really didn't feel good. And I'm like, I'm really sorry. That's not what my intention was. But that's also an interesting aspect, too. It's that a lot of this is the impact on you, not the intended. What the. Whatever the intended impact is. Yeah, I think there's a lot of. I'm going to switch gears here for, because I curious about this. So what kind of bullying are we seeing in the workplace? Like, is that. Was that something that was.
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Brooke Schnitman
You went into micromanagement, gaslighting, chronic criticism, exclusion, being labeled too much, or having the ADHD traits weaponized against you in the workplace?
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, because that's what I was really thinking. Like, that last one is probably what the comments about always being late or disorganization. So many things where it's just like. It is a very easy thing to criticize from the outside because you don't see the internal struggle.
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Brooke Schnitman
Exactly. When I was a special education teacher in the school system, I was in the school system for 15 years, and we always said that people with invisible disabilities were more likely to be bullied from our observations than someone with a physical disability or a physical handicap. Because children understand that there's something different about someone in a wheelchair or someone with a hearing impairment and has a unit. Right. Or someone on crutches, but someone who has an invisible disability, who looks like them but is internalizing Their symptoms because they don't understand themselves. The classmates are not getting the education for it. Are more likely to be a victim.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And it is just because I know I'll get an email about this. Even with visible disabilities, people still get bullied about those, too. It's.
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Brooke Schnitman
Oh, of course. Of course. I'm not saying that they don't.
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Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, well, I'm not. I didn't. I didn't feel that way, but I could.
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Brooke Schnitman
I appreciate that you put that disclaimer out. They definitely. I just wanted to talk about the nuances between the two. Yeah.
- [17:54]
Co-host or Interviewer
Well, it's just like, whenever I have something, you know, someone's like, oh, yeah. No one would ask someone in a wheelchair to walk up the stairs. And then I'll get, like, emails from people, and they're like, that has 100% happened to me. And I'm like, that's terrible. Like, and it's also. Yeah. There's so many things where people just be like, your disability is really inconvenient right now. Could we just not for a minute,
- [18:14]
Brooke Schnitman
just to go on, like, a side. I mean, let's be honest. If you think of the streets. Right. I'm from New York originally. And you're walking on a sidewalk. Do you know that the curb and the sidewalk is made for strollers? It's not made for wheelchairs. So when we talk about discrimination and we talk about bullying. Right. The world is not set up for someone necessarily in a wheelchair even going into a bar or a place. Right. There's not always ramps. So, anyway, I digress. But I just also wanted to bring that.
- [18:48]
Co-host or Interviewer
And it does, like. Yeah, that. And those are very visible. And then. So when you then go into, like, oh, yeah, these invisible disabilities, it makes sense that they don't get accounted for, because they don't. People often don't know or, you know, just can't see. They forget. It's very easy to. Even with knowing my children, it's very easy to get frustrated when I know, you know, it's like, go upstairs and get some socks and come right back downstairs. And then 10 minutes later, I'm like, where have you been? And they're like, I'm just playing with
- [19:13]
William Curb
some Legos up here.
- [19:14]
Brooke Schnitman
That was way too many steps.
- [19:16]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And I was like, it's very frustrating, but I know exactly why it's happening.
- [19:23]
Brooke Schnitman
Yep. Yep. It is extremely frustrating as a neurodivergent parent parenting neurodivergent children, because you get it. But it's also, like, you have to regulate yourself Manage yourself and then also work and co regulate with them. It's a lot of work. I get it.
- [19:43]
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Brooke Schnitman
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- [20:17]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. The number of times in my head where I'm like, why are you doing it like this? And then my brain's like, it's because of the adhd.
- [20:22]
Brooke Schnitman
Exactly. Exactly. The other day. So I am a. I don't know if I mentioned, but I am a mom and a stepmom to neurodivergent children. And so I am a family of five ADHD years. And the other day I called my stepson and I was like, wake up, dad. Wake up, dad. And I'm like, we're gonna be late to soccer. It was the soccer semifinals and, and I said, wake him up. And when you're done waking him up, make sure he calls me. Guess what happens?
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Co-host or Interviewer
Never got a call.
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Brooke Schnitman
Never got a call. So I was ferociously calling all of them. And then I had to do the drop in Alexa to be like, hey, is anyone there? Please make sure he's up. But yeah, too many steps.
- [21:01]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, it's very easy. And it's, it's funny too because it's. The same thing happens where I'm like trying to like, do like, I'm like, I'm gonna do this, this and this. And then I'm like, I didn't get to, I didn't even get to the middle. Step by. This was a mistake. It's very hard to be like, why am I asking my children to do what I have struggled to do myself?
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Brooke Schnitman
A hundred percent, 100%. And we are more likely to remember the first and the last and in the middle, forget about it.
- [21:24]
Co-host or Interviewer
So very much got off track here. But I think, I mean, it is a important thing because we're saying even as neurotypical adults, we have trouble seeing what's going on. As neurodivergent adults, we have trouble seeing what's going on with other neurodivergent individuals because we can't see what's going on in their Head. And neurotypicals often don't even have a frame of reference to why it would be happening.
- [21:46]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. So when you don't understand something, then that becomes confusing to you. So you just expect that they're going to be the same way and they should have the same expectations and that everyone should learn the same way and everyone should, should have the, you know, the same functioning. But that's where universal design comes in and that's where the education piece really comes into play to. And that's why people are bringing in experts to corporations about neurodiversity because we weren't taught this. Growing up. I went to school for general education. I had one special education class that I took. Then I immediately went and got my master's in students with disabilities because I was like, I need to know more about this. But I wouldn't have known jumping into the school system unless I independently did the research.
- [22:31]
Co-host or Interviewer
And I do feel like it is getting, at least from when I've been talking teachers, it's been getting better, but it is still something where it's a lot of, yeah, the teacher learning these things on their own because they need to survive their classroom somehow.
- [22:42]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah.
- [22:42]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, and this is making me think about the idea of the monolith of the bully and bullying where is like if I'm so in this exact example here where, you know, like, I forget what I was saying and if I'm, you know, in the break room talking to co worker and they're like, I'm like, oh. And I just completely lose my train of thought. I kind of like face out and then like I see them rolling their eyes because they're like, oh, Will's doing that again. That might not feel exactly like bullying, but it is. And it might not have a huge impact, but it is something where I was like, oh, yeah, that is. That makes me not want to have these conversations. That makes me want to change my behavior here in ways that I can't really do 100%.
- [23:18]
Brooke Schnitman
It creates hypervigilance too. Right. And your brain is scanning for that rejection and then that causes a lot of rejection sensitivity. Right. You overanalyze people's tone. Tone after that, you anticipate the criticism for people who aren't providing psychological safety to you. Right. And then you people please to avoid conflict or you totally isolate.
- [23:38]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And I can see this being like a big piece of like developing perfectionism as a coping mechanism. I know that was referred to myself as a perfectionist in recovery because it was a Long time. Which is like, oh yeah, this needs to be perfect. And it's. While I have figured out not to do that because it's not a healthy coping mechanism, it's still like, oh, it's still there where I'm like, oh, this is what I want to do.
- [24:01]
Brooke Schnitman
Exactly. You have to. And then as adhders, we are constantly on the go. We're not seeing life as we know it, peripheral vision, unless we are prompted to slow down and reflect and have metacognition. So if you are constantly scanning and thinking and doing, then you're forgetting or not realizing you're being a people pleaser in the moment because you're not analyzing it.
- [24:23]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely. It's. It's frustrating because it's. You want to be like your best self, but at the same time it's. Yeah. Without that metacognition piece, it's very hard to realize what you're doing.
- [24:35]
Brooke Schnitman
Correct. That pause and pivot just isn't there unless we get that external accountability and then eventually internal accountability. But it's practice, a lot of practice. And it's a big weakness of many of us.
- [24:46]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, there's. I can think of too many times where like, yeah, after the event, I was just like, man, that was not. That did not go how I wanted it to go. And I don't know why exactly.
- [24:58]
Brooke Schnitman
And then you talk it out with someone else and they ask you the right questions and you still might be confused, but then eventually it might pop or maybe it doesn't. And I think that's also part of the struggle too. You know, like we're so confused on why certain things are happening and we're not being educated or people don't have microscopes on us 247 when we're in school and work. Right. So if we're not getting the education or the understanding, then we're constantly going to be making the same mistakes. And I don't say that, I don't want to say that we're always making mistakes, but we're constantly going to be doing the same thing because we're just beating ourselves up. And because we are, then like in this chronic stress state, the nervous system again goes into threat mode and our executive function shut down. Right. There's no focus, there's no initiation, there's no memory, there's no confidence. And then how does that impact your work when there's no safety?
- [25:55]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, I can't think of any time where that would be helpful.
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William Curb
No, it is also making me think
- [26:02]
Co-host or Interviewer
about this idea of Masking, too, I think, is definitely something that. Yeah, because we talk about perfectionism and people pleasing, but then also this aspect of masking where you're trying to mold yourself to be the person that you want. You think that they want to be.
- [26:17]
Brooke Schnitman
Exactly, exactly. And when we mask. I actually had this conversation yesterday with someone on my podcast. You know, everything seems fine. Right. You dissociate, you know, like, you just, you know, you're going in the flow. You're riding the wave. Right. But you're never really feeling the feelings. So you don't work on yourself and you don't progress and you don't feel. Because you are constantly stuck in this chameleon, like, state of just, you know, pretending to be someone you're not and you're not learning because you're spending so much time trying to pretend like you are everyone else and model other people's behaviors.
- [26:59]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And there is, like, some aspects, like,
- [27:01]
Brooke Schnitman
oh, this is survival.
- [27:03]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, the survival aspects. And then, you know, like, you know, figuring out, like, oh, yeah, these are good. But it is very detrimental when you're doing it at the cost of, like, who you are.
- [27:12]
Brooke Schnitman
Yep. And that's the biggest thing that I have noticed in the results of this study, is that, you know, people have done therapy. I've done therapy before, and. But before I knew I had adhd, I just got more anxious from therapy because all I was doing was talking about my problems and I didn't know what it was.
- [27:32]
Co-host or Interviewer
That makes a lot of sense.
- [27:33]
Brooke Schnitman
Right. And like, oh, I just buried that. I masked. Right. I dissociated. And now I have to talk about these things. No, like, what is this? Right. But once people become aware of their ADHD and they get the right ADHD informed help, then they can make better, more informed choices. They can learn more about themselves. They can understand what they value, what their strengths are, what their intrinsic motivation is, how they can bring those strengths to friendships and relationships. And then once they become more confident, then they could have better friendships. Right. These friendships are really hard for adhd. So if you have one reciprocal friend who lifts you up and understands you and you don't have to constantly mask, that can make all the world of the difference.
- [28:20]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely. Because it's one of the questions I was thinking about a lot the last year or so is I've used myself quite a bit as an introvert. And the question then becomes like, am I really that introverted, or have I been masking so much in social situations that they don't feel good and they don't serve like any sort of purpose for me other than being like, oh, this is draining and I hate it.
- [28:42]
Brooke Schnitman
Hmm. Very possible. There's been a lot of talk about introversion and neurodivergence recently. I'm curious that. It's very possible my situation is the complete opposite. I was a people pleaser, so I thought I was extroverted. I wanted everyone to like me, let me talk, let me over share, let me, you know, put myself down at the expense of people laughing so I could get attention. So I always thought I was an extrovert, but once I become more of myself, I'm actually an introvert.
- [29:09]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I don't think I'm like extroverted. I just think I'm less introverted than I might think I am.
- [29:15]
Brooke Schnitman
It's very possible.
- [29:16]
Co-host or Interviewer
But yeah, because my mask also does all those same things where I'm very much a people pleaser and I'm very, you know, like trying to be the guy, but it's a lot of unpacking to be like, oh, I don't want to be the guy. That's not who I want to be.
- [29:29]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And I think the unpacking and the reflection and really like sitting with it is the most helpful thing. Right. Because I also had this conversation yesterday. When we are neurodivergent, we burn out more frequently. So we don't notice when we're about to burn out very often because we are so stuck in being on the go. And then. So when we burn out, then there's more time for reflection. But at the same time, when you're burned out, you know, you have low dopamine and you're in shutdown and it's really hard to think. Right. So then you're going to compare yourself to others, you're going to feel rejected. So it might not be the best psychological state to start trying to reflect.
- [30:08]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, it's. Yeah. Trying to get yourself to be regulated enough to reflect is difficult. And so it's. But it is something like kind of worth doing.
- [30:17]
Brooke Schnitman
Oh, definitely worth doing. But if we can try to do it more regularly rather than waiting until we're in full shutdown mode is what I'm saying. Yeah.
- [30:24]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [30:25]
Co-host or Interviewer
100. Yeah. I just was just mean like, yeah, it's definitely worth doing. And it's not. You gotta. It. I was just trying to. As for listeners being like, it's. You gotta work at it. You can't. It's oftentimes I Will have things where I'm just like, let's go. We can just do whatever we need to do.
- [30:38]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. No, this is work. This is not easy. And we have a lot of work to do, unfortunately, and fortunately for neurodivergent people, because we know that almost all of us have experienced some form of trauma, whether it be a small T or a big T, and that impacts our nervous system. So we need to rewire our nervous system by doing these restorative things like EMDR or nervous system regulation, inner family systems. And also be proactive in setting up our minds in a way that works for us, having a menu of things that we know regulate us, making sure that we set boundaries. All the things that. That all of you have heard. Right. But we have to work extra hard to remind ourselves to do those. And slow down.
- [31:26]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Because there is.
- [31:28]
William Curb
I mean, I don't want to do
- [31:29]
Co-host or Interviewer
work a lot of the time. And it's just like, I'd like this to just fix itself. And it's like, that's not. That's not how this works. But it is. You go, you gotta. If I want things to be better, I have to put the effort into doing them.
- [31:41]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. And I think that's what we were talking about before with the masking. Right. When you mask and you dissociate, it can feel easier because you're not doing the work, even though it's very challenging to mask. But once you unmask and you stop dissociating, dissociating can be good for some things because, again, that's a survival mechanism. But when you start feeling it's work, feeling your feelings is really hard and it's not linear. It's. It's not easy.
- [32:09]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And there's. I think, a lot of. Especially in this conversation with bullying being like, oh, these are. I have these maladaptive coping mechanisms that I've developed to deal with the fact that I've been bullied and. Or in currently being bullied there. You know, it's a survival mechanism, but it's not necessarily a mechanism for thriving.
- [32:29]
Brooke Schnitman
Absolutely, absolutely. And also, we need to learn and identify, even as adults, because it's more covert as adults, as we spoke about before, that this, in fact, is unacceptable behavior. You are being bullied like you might. For me, I knew I was being bullied as a child because my parents told me, and then. So I recognized certain behaviors. But as an adult, in a workplace or in a relationship, it looks very different. So we have to understand what's happening for us. To make real change.
- [33:00]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, that is like, so what are some of the things that people can do for this change? Because I just was, I had this conversation with my daughter a few weeks ago where they have like bullying units in school and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Like how, how's that work for you? She's like, they're boring. And the kids that would need to hear it don't listen.
- [33:19]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, exactly. It's more about educate. Like it should be about education for the people who don't understand other people. That's where real change works. When I was in the school system, there was Alveus and that was worldwide and it was a bully reduction program. And they talked about how there's more power in bystanders that can stick up for the victim over anything else over the bully because more people are more help and then have more power. So. But really it's education. Education for the people who don't understand, but also education for you as the victim to say, these are people that are nice. These people are not. These people have my values. These people are going to lift me up. These are the people that I want to spend my time with. Because we know that we're the average of the five people we spend the most time with.
- [34:13]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, it's. I think my dog counts for that.
- [34:15]
Brooke Schnitman
Yes, your dog does count for that. Pets are included.
- [34:18]
William Curb
And she's a neurotic medicine.
- [34:19]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, I was just like, oh yeah. I was like, she's right there.
- [34:22]
William Curb
And she.
- [34:23]
Brooke Schnitman
They're also, they're also included for body doubling. So it's a win, win.
- [34:27]
Co-host or Interviewer
And then what about like as an adult when you're being bullied, what are
- [34:30]
William Curb
some of the things you can do
- [34:31]
Co-host or Interviewer
to kind of mitigate?
- [34:33]
Brooke Schnitman
So my personal experience and what I saw in this survey is really just again, having a reciprocal friend can change everything. So there are tons of strategies out there, like talk back or take the power away from the bully. Like say, so if someone bullies you or say thank you because it takes the power away. Don't engage like those kind of things. Right. So there's lots of one liners. But the problem is, is that because of our adhd, since we have all these working memory challenges, it's gonna be hard in the moment to remember that, especially when we're in a survival state and we said our executive function shut down. So to seek out and know safe people, no friends be able to be lifted up. Because if we're constantly trying, and I know we can't always choose Especially in the workplace, who we surround ourselves with. But if we can choose our partners responsibly, if we can choose certain people in the workplace or certain friends that are going to be nice and they're going to value us and they're going to lift up stuff and be reciprocal friends, that is going to change your confidence level. Yes, I think that is the biggest thing. And to also get the ADHD informed help, whether it be therapy, coaching, just to understand the situation, understand the way your brain is working, understand the maladaptive behaviors and understand the situations of friendships and dynamics and see, you know, talk it out. Because we, a lot of us are verbal processors. So it's helpful to be asked the right questions to understand dynamics.
- [36:09]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, I often find with the. If I'm. If I'm just holding onto my head, it gets into weird loops where I'm not actually finding solutions. It needs to either. It needs to get out of my head somehow.
- [36:20]
Brooke Schnitman
Sure, sure. So, yeah, there are the reframes that you can do with like Dreadloop escape plans or cbt and that's all well and good for independent pie. So, you know, you can switch like, oh, this is just rejection sensitivity. This isn't real. I'm creating the story. Let me reframe it. And that can help in the moment. But also I think there's like, when you don't know of a certain thing and you haven't experienced it before, that's where someone who is an expert in the fields can really help you.
- [36:48]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And it is, I do think it's like in the workplace it is a very hard thing, especially if it's like a boss. Because like, we often be like, yeah, you don't have to accept bullying. But. But what?
- [36:58]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. So I will tell you my personal experience because I can only speak from that right. Right now. And I can also tell you what I saw in the survey. But my personal experience is I have worked for several bullies and I've also co. Worked with bullies. Right. And eventually. Right. All the strategies did not work, so I had to leave. And that was a choice I made and it was the best choice that I could ever made. I was lucky enough to be able to make that choice and move and go to Florida and understand myself and then, you know, be able to help people with ADHD and become a coach. But it doesn't always go away. And sometimes, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to make that hard decision to leave a situation where you are being bullied and it's impacting your life, your self esteem. You're constantly being excluded, you're being yelled at. I mean, some people have to get to that point of leaving. I remember one of my bosses picked up the phone. We were in the same building. I got a call. She put me on speaker with my equal counterpart and a lesser counterpart. And I say that because I was an administrator. So she put a teacher next to her and an assistant director of special education next to her, and I was an assistant director of special education. And she started screaming at me on the phone, screaming. So in that situation, what I did, obviously, was I froze and I didn't really say anything. I hung up the phone. And then I went into her office after the other two were gone, and I said, don't you ever speak to me like that in front of other people. And don't you ever speak to me like that. Period. Now that was so hard to do. Of course, I called everyone and their mother and I said, what do I do? So my bosses have to be blah, blah, blah. Right. But I was able to get to, like, after some time, I got to a calmer state and was able to say that. And she never yelled at me again. She bullied me in other ways, but she never yelled at me again. So you do have a voice, but sometimes it is so toxic that you need to leave.
- [39:00]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. That is. Sorry I had to go through that. That sounds terrible.
- [39:03]
Brooke Schnitman
Thank you. Thank you. And it's. You know, the planning and the prioritization of a job interview is so hard to begin with. You know, sometimes we're just so excited about the new job. Right. We'll take it. Like, someone wants us. That dopamine is intense, right? Like, oh, I'm. I'm good enough for this job. Yes, I got that promotion. Yes, I'm gonna take it no matter what. But if we can again reflect and slow down and think about. Okay, can we interview the employees of this place? Do they have a neurodivergent program? Do they. How. How is your boss? How are the people that you work with on your team? You know, what kind of understanding of neurodivergen diversity do they have? It'd be helpful.
- [39:43]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because we don't want to victim blame, but we also don't want to put ourselves in that. If we can avoid putting ourselves in that situation, it's all the better.
- [39:52]
Brooke Schnitman
Absolutely. And then, you know, just a side note, of course there's relationships, like romantic relationships. And I once interviewed Melissa Orlov. I remember her telling me that when you're in a romantic relationship, you really don't know the person until 24 to 48 months even sometimes three years. Imagine that for someone with ADHD to slow down and not get serious with someone until three years. I marry my husband within a year. So, so now, right. Like you, it's hard. It's really hard. So we have to know these things to make informed decisions.
- [40:32]
Co-host or Interviewer
I remember hearing one comic one time talk about like, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, like they, they were currently divorced, but like, they're like, yeah, you know, in, you know, like the first weeks of the relationship they were sending to Rocky. I could have left then, but I felt like, well, we'll stick it through. And then he's like, you know, a year in and he's like, I've put in the time and I don't want it, so I do it. And then he's like, I could have left then, you know, and then we got engaged. I could have left then. When we first got married, I could have left then. Then we had kids. That's when things fell apart. So. And I'm just like, oh, it's so interesting to think about. Like there's like sun cost fallacy we have in relationships where it's like, well, I can't leave because I've already put all this effort.
- [41:09]
Brooke Schnitman
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And that's the same thing in jobs. Jobs too. Right. I did all my training in this. I already know everyone there. I've already been onboarded. I have tenure. How can I do that? I can't leave. But then you cried. This happened to me. I cried when I got signed in by the board, you know, like before I even officially started. So yeah, the signs can be there.
- [41:32]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And it's, it, it's so hard to also like predict where, what's going to be the right, right move. Because you're like, oh, are things going to get better? Well, we should always go. If there's nothing moving towards things getting better, they're not going to.
- [41:46]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. And usually when there's a performance plan there, it's already a little too late. But yes, if it's not getting any better and that you don't have the data points and your body is not feeling good being around, then that's questionable. But again, as neurodivergent people who don't like, reflect and don't get the tools and are, you know, have lower self esteem because of all of the years of trauma and people pleasing, then we're like, oh, wait. But, like, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the problem. So I just need to change myself and then, you know, things are gonna get better. Just change me to make it myself. Adapt to this.
- [42:25]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. If I just act perfectly at all
- [42:27]
William Curb
times, then no one will.
- [42:28]
Brooke Schnitman
No one. Yeah. If I don't say anything, if I stay late till the janitors leave at night, everything's gonna be fine. I'll just, like, have no life outside of work, and I will do it all.
- [42:40]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking in regards to relationships, I just want to remind people, like, yeah, you can improve those. Communicate with your partner if you. Sometimes, as we were talking, bullying is unintentional. It's just the dynamic that, you know, they grew up in or something.
- [42:56]
Brooke Schnitman
So 100. I'm glad you said that. And since you did say that, if it's okay to share. My husband and I have been together for six years, maybe a little bit more. And. And he has a traumatic upbringing, and I also have a lot of trauma. Right. So we had some really tough times. Almost got divorced last year. But once he worked on himself and I worked on myself separately, and there was nervous system regulation and there was awareness, Our communication has never been more solid. Like, all bets were against us. So, yes, we did all that, sticking with it. It was really, really, really hard. And we could have easily given up, but the reason why we didn't give up knew there was something else. And luckily, the work that he's doing is working, like, immediately because of awareness. And that also is helping me understand him more and us communicating better as partners.
- [43:52]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Because we all have our own baggage and our own ways of processing things. And so oftentimes, as neurodivergent individuals, we have a really hard time asking for what we need because we're. We're on that people pleaser train. And so there's no part of people pleasing that says, what can you do for me?
- [44:10]
Brooke Schnitman
Exactly. And my husband's very direct, and he needs me to be direct with him, but I'm the people pleaser. So I used to be like, well, what are your thoughts on this? Instead of being direct, like, I want this. I am going to do this. What do you. You know, like, I always frame things as a question, and that was very confusing.
- [44:28]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. And, yeah. Yeah. It took a long time for me to realize that if I want something from my wife, I have to ask for it. I cannot just strongly send mental signals like, that's not communication.
- [44:42]
Brooke Schnitman
It's not going to read your minds. Exactly.
- [44:44]
Co-host or Interviewer
So much so with my children, too, where, like, I'm like, oh, if I just communicate, like, hey, what you're doing is really frustrating me right now. We have about a minute before I just lose my mind. Let's stop and back up. And my, like, I am still regulated now. I will not be in five minutes.
- [45:00]
Brooke Schnitman
And that is. That is communicative behavior. And you're not in protest behavior where, okay, you thought they can read your mind. Now I'm going to storm off and, you know, be silent. Right. Like, that doesn't help anyone. So the fact that you've learned how to regulate your body and when it's unregulated and you know when to communicate is very important when you're working with other neurodivergence children and adults.
- [45:28]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, well, I just. When I was like, I can feel this coming. And just like the time. First time I, like, tried to be like, hey, I'm. I cannot handle what you're doing right now. And then, like, them being like, okay. And then they went off and did something else, and it was just like. Or, you know, they. I think this was, like, involved like, cleaning rooms, and they were just, like, throwing fits and being like, we're not going to have this happen. I'm like, things are going to be real uncool here in a minute. And they're like, oh, I don't want that. I will try. And I'm like, that's all I really wanted.
- [45:54]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, right. But you had. You talked about it, and you understand their intentions, and they understand your intentions. So communication are two messages being received. Right. If two people aren't receiving the same message, then you're not communicating.
- [46:10]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. And it's much better than just being like, hey, there's going to be consequences, you know, in the vague consequences. It's playing like, no, I'm going to be. Be really upset. And that's what's going on. It's not like you're gonna lose screen time or something.
- [46:23]
Brooke Schnitman
Exactly, exactly. Exactly. Right. And like, I know with parenting also, you know, it's better to be like, if. When. Rather than what you just said, like, you're gonna lose this. Right. Throwing consequences. Better to partner with them and to explain, like, when you do this, then you get this rather than the punishment aspect. But it's so hard when you're in the moment.
- [46:46]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah. Because I. I don't want to be the bully parent. Like, that is something I know a lot of neurodivergent kids deal with because they're like, oh, but their parents go, oh, I figured out how to get you to do what I want you to do.
- [46:58]
Brooke Schnitman
Manipulation. Yeah, it's hard. It's all hard.
- [47:01]
Co-host or Interviewer
All right, so I was wondering if you had any final thoughts that you wanted to leave the audience with.
- [47:05]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah. You know, for most people in the general population, bullying declines with age. And unfortunately in this sample of adults with adhd, it didn't. So awareness is everything, but it's also not about staying stuck in the past. It's about reclaiming control, like rebuilding confidence and choosing environments that really fit your nervous system. So join the communities of people who get you, understand what's going on and know you're not alone in all of this. That's the biggest takeaway that I hope people get out of our conversation.
- [47:39]
Co-host or Interviewer
Oh, thank you so much. I think this is a really important conversation for people to have because we don't realize it's happening. It's just. And we blame ourselves.
- [47:46]
Brooke Schnitman
Yeah, we do, we do. And then it becomes systemic in us and we're conditioned to feel that we are a certain thing. Right. And we identify as that so we can change the narrative.
- [48:00]
William Curb
Well, thank you again and I'm sure
- [48:02]
Co-host or Interviewer
people get so much out of this.
- [48:04]
Brooke Schnitman
Thanks, Will.
- [48:09]
William Curb
Thanks again to Brooke for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Before you go though, let's do a quick rundown of Today's top tips.
- [48:16]
Brooke Schnitman
1.
- [48:17]
William Curb
When faced with a threat or bullying, the ADHD brain often experiences a physiological freeze where the parasympathetic nervous system takes over. It's important for us to understand that we're not always control of this shift and to not be self critical about how we react in the moment and give ourselves grace to do better, better in the future. 2. To effectively manage a bullying situation, we have to understand the framework. Repetition, power imbalance and harm. Recognizing that a power imbalance can be a social status or neurotypical norms rather than just a boss employee hierarchy allows us to identify why a situation feels off.
- [48:54]
Co-host or Interviewer
3.
- [48:55]
William Curb
Many ADHDers stay in bullying situations because the executive function requires to leave, such as interviewing, onboarding, starting over a relationship. All that often feels more overwhelming than the bullying itself. Shifting the perspective to body data or how the nervous system feels about that person can be a more reliable indicator than your internal pro con list. 4. Since bullying often triggers a survival response that shuts down your executive functions, you can't rely on logic in the moment to combat this. Brook suggests focusing on nervous system regulation tools like EMDR or grounding to help your body feel safe again. You have to train your brain before the situations occur so that doing X when Y happens becomes an automatic habit. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact and if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 283 and if you'd like even more hacking your ADHD be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, and everything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to Hackingyour newsletter to sign up. You can also check out the Hacking your ADHD Patreon, which is a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of Patreon receive all the same stuff. You can pay $0 or $2 or $10. It's all the same. You can find that@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon and be sure to check out the Discord, which you can find@hackingradhd.com Discord there's also the HackingReadyHD YouTube channel now, which you can find at YouTube.com hackingyouradhd and finally, if there's another way you'd like to support the show, the best way to do
- [50:48]
Co-host or Interviewer
so is to tell someone about the
- [50:49]
William Curb
show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of dad. Did you know that Pegasus is short for Margaret Suspicious?
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Brooke Schnitman
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