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- [00:00]
Chandler Garcia
Hi, I'm Chandler Garcia. As a PICU nurse and global health advocate, I've cared for women and children all over the world, from Costa Rica to Egypt to Kenya and beyond. And no matter where I go or how tough the conditions get, I always wear my figs. These scrubs are lightweight, breathable and super soft. Perfect for long shifts in any environment. They've got pockets in all the right places, the fit is flexible and they're durable through every admission, surgery and post op. But it's not just about the scrubs. Another big part of what I love about figs is when they say they're committed to supporting healthcare workers all over the world, they mean it. I recently joined them on an impact trip to India, where I worked in triage caring for babies in a mobile clinic. My figs aren't just what I wear, they're part of the impact I want to make. Wherever my work takes me, Figs helps me show up ready to make a difference while looking and feeling my best. Get 15% off your first order at wear figs.com with code FIGSRX. That's wherefigs.com, code FIGS RX from Unsolved
- [01:01]
Eric Goode
Mysteries to unexplained phenomena, from comedy gold to relationship fails, Amazon Music's got the most ad free Top podcasts included with prime because the only thing that should interrupt your listening is, well, nothing. Download the Amazon Music app today. Foreign.
- [01:26]
William Curb
Welcome to Hacking your adhd. I'm your host William Curb, and I have ADHD on this podcast. I dig into the tools, tactics and best practice to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team. This week I've got Kate Osborne and
- [01:41]
William Curb (Host)
Eric Goode on the show.
- [01:42]
William Curb
Kate, known online as Katy asaurus, holds an MEd and uses her background in research and sex education to help neurodivergent folk navigate relationships and communication. Eric, known online as hey Good, is an advocate and speaker who uses his platform to destigmatize the messy internal monologue of the ADHD brain. And honestly, it almost feels like I don't need to introduce these two. Given everything they've produced, they are definitely an online powerhouse.
- [02:07]
William Curb (Host)
I've been a fan of their podcast,
- [02:08]
William Curb
Katie and Eric's Infinite Quest and ADHD Adventure for quite a while now. So I imagine you've probably seen at least something from them before, and they've just spent the last few years distilling their combined experience into a new book designed to act as a foundational knowledge base for neurodivergent adults. The book book The ADHD Field Guide for Adults was a ton of fun to read. It's written in an incredibly ADHD friendly manner. And I really appreciate the approach of making this book for adults where I don't feel like I'm being talked down to. So in this episode, we're definitely talking about the book, but we go into a ton of different topics. We talk about the system's first approach to ADHD management. We break down the precision of language and why understanding that distinction can matter, and a whole lot more. There's just a ton of stuff in this episode. If you'd like to follow along on the Show Notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 279 all right, keep on listening to find out how medical opinions from the 1700s are still trying to ruin your week, right?
- [03:04]
William Curb (Host)
Well, here we go. And so exciting to have you guys here. I've spent the last couple of weeks reading through your book, ADHD Field Guide for Adults. Fantastic. Just off the bat, you guys did a great job with that book. I think a lot of people get a lot out of it, and I really did enjoy this is a book for adults. This is not a kids book, which is often. So often what happens with a lot of ADHD books is like, well, this is for everyone. I'm like, no, this one is specifically for adults. And a lot of people who are late diagnosed and so definitely enjoyed that a lot. And so I just wanted to start our conversation with hearing a little bit about how you got into writing the book.
- [03:43]
Kate Osborne
Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, the story of how the book came to be is very goofy, actually. I was on a TikTok live back in the day and somebody in the comments and I wish, I wish my, my biggest regret of the book is that I did not write down this person's username and I wish I did because they have no idea how much of an impact they had on my life. But some, somebody in the comment section just said, like, would you ever write a book? And I saw the comment, I said, you know, like, I, I thought about it. I've always wanted to write a book, but, you know, I don't. I don't know if that's something I could do. And it happened that, that our literary agent, Caroline, was in the chat at the time and she heard me say that. And so I woke up the next day to a very nice email from her saying, hey, I'm a literary agent and I would love to represent you and I would love to help you Get a book made. And I was like, oh my gosh. I kind of thought it was a scam for a little bit. I'm not gonna lie to you. And then over the next gosh, like three years, yeah, I started thinking about, like, what I wanted this book to be and what this book could be. And I thought a lot about a lot of the ADHD books that I don't like. And the thing that I kept coming back to is that I've been let down over and over again by books about ADHD because they're either not accessible or they're just like massive walls of text or they're incredibly scientifically dense, or they're just a lot of like, have you considered getting a planner? And I just, I didn't want the book to be that way. And so then at the same time, Eric and I had started a podcast called Kat in Eric's Infinite Quest. And what was really interesting about Eric and I's sort of partnership and experience is that we are sort of like the bizarro universe version of each other. So Eric got diagnosed very early on in life, knew he had adhd, struggled in school, went down like a different path. And I was the opposite. I was like the hyper academic straight A's, involved in every extracurricular activity. All my self worth was wrapped up in being good at school. And so I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until the day before my 30th birthday. And so when looking at a book like how do we write a book? The thing that we kind of settled on was that we wanted the book to represent everybody. We wanted the book to represent not just one experience with adhd, not the early diagnosis or late diagnosis. We wanted to be able to touch on everything. And so we spent a long time just talking about stuff like design and layout and content and how are we going to write and tone and all of that stuff. And so, yeah, and so the ADHD feel guide for adults and is the sort of result of that incredibly lengthy sort of like introspective process about what we wanted the book to be.
- [06:24]
William Curb (Host)
Having gone through the book, you can tell like the amount of effort that went into making it accessible. It's not just a wall of text or, you know, ideas that are dumbed down.
- [06:33]
Eric Goode
Growing up, I always had a hard time reading. I mean, I frankly, I still do. Not for dyslexia related reasons or anything like that, but strictly forum from ADHD related things. It's hard for me to sit still. It's hard for me to like engage with one and only one thing for long periods of time. So I grew up sort of afraid of books and I still have in my heart this sort of knee jerk fear of taking on the endeavor of reading a book. When I get a book that I want to read, there's a fear inside of me. I'm worried that I'm going to let myself down by not finishing it or not even opening it or not getting what I think I should get out of it. And so it was really important for me personally to make sure that this book was going to be a win for whoever gets it. They don't have to read it cover to cover. They don't have to make sure they keep it on their nightstand and read it every single night. They can just kind of keep it around and engage with it however they want to engage with it and still get some use out of it. So that was really important to me to make sure that this book was going to be a book that aids in this, in, you know, the reader's experience with written media in general. And I think we did a decent job. I think I find myself picking up and skimming through it.
- [07:40]
William Curb (Host)
I'm definitely gonna have to get myself a hardcover copy rather than the PDF I went through.
- [07:46]
Eric Goode
Oh, they're very smooth and they smell great.
- [07:48]
William Curb (Host)
And so one of the aspects of the book when reading through I loved was just the importance of like using specific language. Like, one of the things that immediately like, hit me was the making sure to like go through the difference between hyperfocus and hyper fixation, which often get used interchangeably but have very different connotations than what they do.
- [08:07]
Kate Osborne
One of the things that we really wanted to do with the book is that I think there are some people who might get the book and go, well, obviously there's a difference between hyperfocus and hyper fixation. Like, obviously. But the real truth is that we really wanted to be able to meet people where they are. And some people don't know that there is a difference. And some people, maybe they had an idea, but you know, they've never been able to like, hone in specifically. And so in creating the book, we do a lot of sort of definition breaks and vocab words and that kind of thing because we wanted to. Even if you get nothing else out of the book, even if, like, nothing is useful, even if you're like, what are these idiots talking about? What we wanted to be able to do is foundationally create a, a knowledge base that the ADHD person can then Go off into the world and, and carry with them. So I think it's important to understand the difference between hyper focus and hyper fixation. I think it's important to talk about the like social and disability models around the way that we talk about the term neurodivergent. You know, like there, there's just very specific that doesn't get brought up a lot. But I think being able to sort of foundationally say, okay, we're going to start the conversation here, we're all going to make sure we're on the same page, we're all on equal footing, we're all sitting around the same table and then the conversation kind of evolves from there.
- [09:21]
Eric Goode
Yeah, I think something that was really important to us and something that was central to the premise of the book is that the book is on eye level with the reader. A lot of ADHD related media, particularly books, are either really heady, super science based, very, very gritty language or they're sort of just good, good, good tricks and tips. Here you go. And I'm not knocking either of those things. Both of those types of books has their place. But we really wanted to strike the balance in between those things where here, yeah, here's some tricks and tips. Yeah, here's some neuroscience about how it actually works, but here's how those things come together for you as a person, dear reader. You know, so we wanted to make sure we maintained that eye level tone throughout the book. And in doing that I think we really wanted to make sure that we were being precise and we wanted to make sure we were speaking one to one so that what we said is hopefully what the reader hears or reads. And so clarifying our language with certain terms I think was sort of part of that. To make sure that we're speaking directly to the reader and not going through some translation process, you know.
- [10:22]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. And so often we, we don't know where someone's at. You know, did they, are they coming from reading research papers or are they coming from. All information I have about ADHD I got from memes.
- [10:34]
Kate Osborne
Yeah, well, and that's such a common thing too. Like it's really funny today. Literally just now, before we started recording, I had posted a video about. I did a Q and A for my show and somebody had asked about like inner monologues and like can you picture stuff in your head and like that kind of stuff. So we had this like great little discussion and somebody in the comments was like, oh well, yeah, being able to picture stuff comes from trauma. And I was like, no, that's not correct. That is not a correct thing. I just kind of had this moment of like, wow, there really are people who I think are very well intentioned, but when they are getting their information solely from like memes or like the comment section of, you know, social media, it can be tricky. And so we really wanted to make sure that no matter like what belief system you were coming in with, you were at least going to leave with good, accurate, factual, peer reviewed information to hopefully then also give you a little bit of, you know, media literacy, a little critical thinking, a little evaluating of like what, what are they trying to sell me? Because that's a huge issue in the ADHD community is so many people are trying to sell you something or you know, like buy my supplements. And we just, we just really wanted to educate, we just really wanted to help people. And so, yeah, so, so that was like really important to us.
- [11:53]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, being able to cut through some of the nonsense that's out there, it can be incredibly difficult. And I will get these questions about things and I'm just like, yeah, there's just nothing there. One of the things that I always, I see come up is the vitamin C killing Adderall's effectiveness. And I'm like, I can't find a single study that actually says that there is a mechanism in your body that could make that happen. But I can't find a single study that shows this happening.
- [12:16]
Kate Osborne
It's interesting how much research exists, but then a really good example is like menopause and perimenopause, which is like right down my alley. But just like the complete lack of research around, like how does this really important time in a person's life, life impact adhd? And like we, we're just now like just in the past few years getting around to studying it. And so it's like, yeah, maybe in 10 years it's like, hey, really watch the vitamin C. But like right now, you know, like one study or one meme or whatever is informing the conversation due to like virality and like, you know, everybody wants like a good hook on their, on their TikTok video. So I think that that's one of the things that we feel really fortunate about is that the book gave us an ability to share the study, share the like real science, the real hard science, but in a way that's like fun and accessible and doesn't feel necessarily overwhelming.
- [13:07]
Eric Goode
Yeah, and I think there's, there's sort of a period that occurs when something gets talked about suddenly is, is A big part of the. The global conversation. But the science hasn't caught up yet. There's a vacuum that gets created that often gets filled with grifters, frankly, you know, selling their little tonics for curing things. And so I think there's been a huge influx of people sell stuff to people who are now getting diagnosed with ADHD or just hearing about ADHD or just hearing the terms executive dysfunction for the first time. There's a lot of people coming in trying to just sell stuff. And I think in this particular historical moment, I think it's important to try to get as much correct information into the conversation as possible so people have something to defend themselves when somebody comes along and tries to sell them, you know, snake oil that's going to cure all of their afflictions or something.
- [13:58]
Kate Osborne
It's also really funny because it's like, I will, like, rail until the dying of the light about, like, grifters and like, people taking advantage. And then at the same time, I'm like, but please buy my book, though. Like, it feels like I hear it. I know I hear it.
- [14:10]
Katie Duke
I hear it.
- [14:11]
Kate Osborne
When I say it out loud.
- [14:12]
Eric Goode
I hear it too. But I mean, I stand by every single thing. The book is a good faith thing.
- [14:17]
Kate Osborne
It's been a long time making sure that we were correct.
- [14:20]
Eric Goode
Exactly. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I was like, man, we've been trying to sell a book. That's wrong.
- [14:24]
Kate Osborne
It's like bad dreams. I have bad dreams. Seriously. I have bad dreams about somebody being like this. Like, really obvious fact is, like, I. I have, like, stress dreams about that.
- [14:33]
Eric Goode
Yeah.
- [14:34]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah. And it's funny too, because you have things too, like, Matt, like, we really need to be following science and all these things. And then also the DSM is kind of garbage at times.
- [14:41]
Kate Osborne
How long do you have?
- [14:44]
Eric Goode
Yeah, science is slow and it's shocking
- [14:47]
William Curb (Host)
because you're just like, I don't know how to some. Yeah, sometimes I'm like, I don't know how to like parts of this without sounding like a crazy person.
- [14:55]
Eric Goode
Yeah.
- [14:56]
Kate Osborne
Yeah. And I don't know. And the update to the dsm, the most recent update was really interesting for a lot of different reasons. But it's also one of the reasons why I was such, like, a little history nerd. Like, that is my wheelhouse is like, I'm like a little history clown. And so one of the things that I was really, really excited about because I did have to fight for it, like a little bit. They were like, why do we need 10 pages on the history of ADHD. I don't understand. And one of the things that I found so powerful is like, if you back through like the dsm, if you track back through all the different iterations and like the language that they used around ADHD and the way that they talked about people with ADHD as though like we were morally bad people or we were like inherently fundamentally, like manipulative or, or, or just like purposely shitty. The judgments that got applied to people with adhd, I really felt like that was important to talk about. And so there is like a weird little like history chapter because I just think like context begets context and it's important to understand that like one of the reasons why we have such trash science around some of this stuff is because we're still like looking at conversations that were literally being had like the 1700s. Like medical attitudes around like mental illness and morality in the 1700s are shaping the conversations that we're having around mental health care today. Which is, I just realized, which is literally what my show is about. But like, we're talking about the. But I was like, oh, I did it twice. I did it twice in two different places. But like, that's like, I don't know, it just, it blows my mind that there is so much like stigma and negativity around these just like neurodevelopmental disorders that you are born with. Like, it's not like we wake up and choose this, you know, it's. It's just wild to me.
- [16:40]
William Curb (Host)
And especially with how that kind of like mirrors a lot of the self talk that ADHD goes through. Where before my diagnosis it was really a lot of like, oh, I'm just a shitty person. That's why this is the way I am.
- [16:52]
Eric Goode
The original title of the book originally for years, was you are not a fuck up. That was the original title of the book because that's what we wanted the reader to come away with. The introduction to the book, the first I remember how many pages that ended up is just one long sort of essay trying to convince the reader that you are not a fuck up. And I think that is the tone of the book attempts to strike, is a balance between radical acceptance and acknowledgement that the reality that you have ADHD is real and not your fault. It is not your fault that you have executive dysfunction. It's not your fault your brain works the way that it does any more than your eye color is your fault. It's just the way you were born. But your behavior is your Fault, the things that you do, the way that you affect other people, that is your fault and your responsibility. So getting mad at yourself for struggling with certain things is not useful because the fact that you struggle with it is not your fault, but your behavior is. So there is a weird balance to strike between self forgiveness and not just getting down on yourself because I'm a bad person and that's unchangeable, but also acknowledging that, yeah, you did kind of do a shitty thing when you interrupted that person, when you didn't show up to that thing, when you forgot to pick up the person at the place, like that was a not good thing to do and you should feel some type of way about that. So in the book, a section that speaks to your point on clarifying language is, I really wanted to draw a distinction between the word shame and the word guilt. Something that I try to implement in my own life is actively understanding the difference that I understand between guilt and shame, where shame is a feeling that you get about something that you believe you are, are. I am ashamed that I am a lazy, unreliable person. I am ashamed that I am forgetful, that I am a forgetful person. Whereas guilt is a negative feeling that you experience over something that you did. I am guilty of being unreliable. I'm guilty of being behaving forgetfully. So shame, when you contextualize things as shame, it dooms you to this unchangeable thing that you are, you are, are a bad person. No sense trying to change that because that's just who you are. Whereas guilt, although an also unpleasant feeling, guilt concerns what you do, and you can change what you do. So rather than think I am unreliable, think I am guilty of having behaved unreliably because that allows this window for change. You can change that, that, that, that behavior. So I try to think in terms of guilt rather than shame. Dear reader or dear listener, have you been guilty of behaving that way? Yes. But should you be ashamed because that's who you are? No, that's not who you are. You have behaved that way and you can change your behavior. You have agency here. So I think drawing the distinction between guilt and shame I think helped us, hopefully helps us strike that balance between accountability but also acceptance.
- [19:54]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, I had the section highlighted where you have, like, the reader question being, you know, like, hey, why can't people just accept that I'm always going to be late? And it's like, because you don't have to be.
- [20:04]
Eric Goode
Yeah, I was really nervous about including the answer to that question of you Know what? What do I do to make my friends okay with me interrupting them all the time? And the real answer is you shouldn't interrupt your friends all the time and they shouldn't be okay with it. It's really kind of scary as an author, you know, writing that as a genuine answer to a question. But sometimes that is the answer.
- [20:25]
Chandler Garcia
Hi, I'm Chandler Garcia. As a PICU nurse and global health advocate, I've cared for women and children all, all over the world, from Costa Rica to Egypt to Kenya and beyond. And no matter where I go or how tough the conditions get, I always wear my figs. These scrubs are lightweight, breathable, and super soft, perfect for long shifts in any environment. They've got pockets in all the right places, the fit is flexible and they're durable through every admission, surgery and post op. But it's not just about the scrubs. Another big part of what I love about figs is when they say they're committed to supporting healthcare workers all over the world, they mean it. I recently joined them on an impact trip to India, where I worked in triage, caring for babies in a mobile clinic. My figs aren't just what I wear. They're part of the impact I want to make. Wherever my work takes me, FIGS helps me show up ready to make a difference while looking and feeling my best. Get 15 off your first order at Wearfigs.com with code FIGSRX. That's Wearfigs.com code FIGS RX.
- [21:28]
Eric Goode
Yeah, that.
- [21:28]
William Curb (Host)
I mean, that is one of the, like as sometimes as an ADHD creator, we have to give answers people don't want because it's like, sometimes it's easy when people are like, oh, how do I cure my adhd? It's like, you don't. You don't.
- [21:39]
Eric Goode
Yeah, yeah, that's not a thing.
- [21:40]
Kate Osborne
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's something that I really wrestled with because I, like, I never want someone to feel blame, right? I never want someone to feel shame or embarrassment around things. The truth of the matter is that ADHD does impact our ability to function. And especially in the work that I do, ADHD affects intimacy and relationships and communication. And unfortunately, I think sometimes there is, there is comfortability in just being like, well, that's the way I am. I can't do anything. That's, that's just the way I am. If, if they really liked me, they would just understand that I'm always going to be 15 minutes late. And like, sure, you can spend your life trying to find the people who will always let you talk over them and be 15 minutes late. But I don't think that invites as. As generative of a conversation around respect and compassion and empathy and, and really showing up for your friends like the best way that you can. Sometimes I am 15 minutes late, admittedly, but when. When you know that your executive functioning and your time, perception differences and all of that combines to make you a person who trends towards the late, then the question then becomes, how do I build systems? How do I build structures where I can hopefully avoid that? But that sort of resignation of like, there's nothing I can do, Something always comes up, I'm always going to be late. Like, strive for more. Strive to get curious about what could change and what could shift and what might work better than just saying, I guess I'm just gonna always be late.
- [23:17]
William Curb (Host)
It's the difference between having a friend that's like, you know, just like, this is how I am versus I'm trying and I'm having a hard time.
- [23:24]
Kate Osborne
Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Like, you are allowed to struggle. You are allowed to have a hard time. And I think if. If the people in your life judge you for struggling, that is different. But if they get frustrated or, or upset, because it's just like, well, I'm gonna be late no matter what. Nothing I can do. Sorry. That's where it gets. That's, I think, less compassionate and less empathetic.
- [23:46]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. Because I. And there's been times in my life where I've been very much in that mode of like, this is just who I am. And I'm like, but this isn't actually helping me get anywhere.
- [23:57]
Eric Goode
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a section in the book that talks about defeat and how the feeling of defeat, of being defeated, it's not necessarily a positive feeling, but it can be quite comfortable. Comfortable because defeat doesn't ask you of anything. If you're already feeded, you're done, the game is over, you're done, you hit the showers, you know, so that feeling of defeat, of I'm just gonna accept that I'm an unreliable late person, as much as that's not a great feeling, you know, there's a lot of shame there. It is. It's not asking you to do anything. It's not telling you to get up and do something that takes effort, you know, you can just lie in bed. So I think having a healthy relationship with. With failure, I think is important in every life respect. But particularly if you're engaging to become A student of yourself, such to amend your behavior, such to live a life that is more fulfilling for you. Having a relationship to failure that doesn't cause you to self destruct and shut in and give up is monumentally important when you're developing systems for happily living your life. As a person with adhd, failure is one of the most, if not the most important part of the process. If you try a system for something, for doing dishes, for doing laundry, for showing up to appointments, if you try a system to get those things done and it doesn't work, that is so useful. Now you get to dissect what it was like, oh, my dishes system requires the, the sink to be empty for me to do the dishes. You know, I remove the dishes and then do them in the sink, but I hate removing the dishes, so I don't do it. Okay, so that's a flaw in the system. My system needs to be more accessible, needs to be less terrible for me. Ultimately, I think having a healthy relationship to failure and not allowing it to make you feel that occasionally comforting feeling of defeat is really important when you're a neurodivergent folk. Learning your brain, learning how to drive your brain, you know.
- [25:45]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, it's the. About having compassion for yourself in ways that sometimes doesn't come so naturally to us.
- [25:51]
Eric Goode
Something that I try to tell myself is when my brain is feeling down on me, when my brain is being mean to me, that's just my brain just doing its best to keep me alive. Like that's what it was. That's what it does, you know, ultimately is it evolved to just keep us not dead. And part of that is being immensely critical of us because it thinks there might be a lion. It thinks if we make a mistake, there's going to be a lion or something that'll lead us. And so I, it helps me maintain compassion. Sometimes I just think of my brain as this literally ancient thing that's like trying to keep me alive despite all the weirdnesses of the modern world.
- [26:24]
William Curb (Host)
I mean, that is a theme that comes up too in the book a lot. It's just like, yeah, the modern world definitely sucks for adhd. People go too far with that being like, ADHD is only a capitalist idea. And I was like, it's not quite that either.
- [26:35]
Kate Osborne
Yeah, there's definitely a balance. It's interesting because talking about adhd, you have to name stuff like capitalism. You have to name stuff like patriarchy and white supremacy and those kind of things, because those ideals are sort of baked into how we talk and how we treat and how we move through adhd. But you know, the thing that I always say is like, if capitalism disappeared to my tomorrow, you know, if, like it was just like, hooray, we're doing something else now. It's like, it is still likely that I'm not going. Like, actually I literally in this moment right now just realized that I have a load of laundry in the washer that I forgot to put into the dryer yesterday. And like, capitalism is not going to change that. Like, you know, like, there are certain parts of ADHD that are just going to impact your life no matter, like, what economic circumstances we are living under. But the economic structures that you live under dramatically impact adhd. Like, we, we see and I think we talk about this in the book a little bit, but you know, like, people who, neurodivergent people are statistically more likely to make less money. We are statistically more likely to live under the poverty line. And when you live under the poverty line, then it becomes a whole host of issues around access and affordability and the absolute shit show that is, you know, insurance in our country. And so all of those issues then compound on your adhd. Because if you were worried about being able to pay for stuff, if you were worried about being able to like exist and pay your rent, that is going to dramatically impact your executive functioning and your cognitive load. And so we see that, like, it's not a capitalism thing, but it is directly tied to the systems in which we operate under. And I think that is such a necessary and vital part of the conversation that we just never talk about. It's just like you, you struggle, you personally, you individual person are struggling and here's how we fix you. But much of it is about like, it, it's about fixing the systems as a whole.
- [28:28]
William Curb (Host)
The book did such a good job of like looking at with a lens of intersection. And you know, because I know you, you guys mentioned in the book that like, yeah, as we talk as three white people, there is a certain lack of intersection here. But that is still addressed in the book with the experts that you consulted with.
- [28:46]
Eric Goode
Yeah, I mean, there were a number of questions that we, you know, that the books sought to answer while we were writing it that we both just obviously could not answer ourselves from our perspective. So having guest experts come in to speak to different experiences that we ourselves don't have, that wasn't even so much of a decision. Yeah, it was just, of course we would, you know, the book seeks to have conversations that aren't being had. And the conversation of how ADHD affects the bibok community or non. The non CIS community is a vital part of that conversation. It's a vital part of something that needs to be included in the book. So, yeah, that was there from the get go. Just, of course, of course we would have people come in to speak on that.
- [29:24]
Kate Osborne
And one of the things that we're like, genuinely proudest of is that we also hear from our community. And so we asked our community, we said, hey, like, we, we want to, like, have quotes, we want to have stories like in the book, if you don't mind sharing, let us know what you think. And so there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of quotes from people in the book from different experiences, from different backgrounds, from different cultures, from different upbringings and economic circumstances and all of the differences that you can. And I think that it really improves the book as a whole because what you very quickly realize, and we talk about this a lot, is the idea of, like, if, you know one person with adhd, you know, one person with ADHD and looking at someone with ADHD and, you know, doing the very trait, very, like, stereotypical, like, well, have you considered a planner? Is so not useful. But when you really start hearing the stories and the voices of different people in the community who are differently marginalized and from different intersectionalities, you really start to realize that, oh, your individual experience is going to vary greatly, even though we all kind of live under the umbrella of this singular diagnosis. And then, you know, even more like comorbidities and how your comorbidity stack and like, all of the other things, like, if you are disabled, if you live in chronic pain, like, your ADHD is going to impact you differently. And so we wanted to represent all of that, you know, like, obviously, I don't think we got like every single experience in the history of the sun, but we really, really wanted to include that because we never wanted this book to feel, I don't like isolating. We never wanted it to feel like, oh, well, this is, you know, Kate was good at school and I was bad at school. So what can this book possibly provide to me is we really wanted to make it welcoming and inclusive to everybody in the community.
- [31:11]
Eric Goode
I think that's one of the main reasons we really tried to take a very. We really tried to assemble a very generalized description of the process of creating systems to live as yourself. There are a lot of tricks and tips lists out there, both in video format and in writing. There's a lot of, hey, have you tried, I don't know, a shoe organizer. There's a million different. Different lists of different ADHD life hacks out there. And that's a good thing. It's good to have sort of a catalog of that. But ultimately, those tools are only useful if you know the problem you're trying to solve with them. So core to anybody coming to terms with their ADHD is becoming a student of themselves. Just looking at your own life, your own behaviors, your own cares, what do I really want to change? Frankly, a lot of things we as ADHD adults have feel shame about are things that we might not actually care about. We were just taught to care about them. Yeah. The amount of shame that I felt throughout my early 20s for the way that I handled my laundry was immense. I didn't notice it at the time, but around 24, 25, I decided, I'm not folding my underwear ever, and I'm not matching my socks ever, and I'm gonna wear the same shirt. I mean, I already been wearing the same shirt every day for, like, years at the time, but I committed to wearing the same shirt every day. Just a black undershirt.
- [32:34]
Kate Osborne
And to be clear, dear listener, he had more than one.
- [32:37]
Eric Goode
I had more than just to be.
- [32:39]
Kate Osborne
I mean, very what I'm wearing right now. I wore the same shirt every day for 10 years. Never washed it.
- [32:44]
Eric Goode
Never washed it. When I started doing that and when I started to accept that that's an okay thing to do, to just have. Have a million pair, a million of identical socks so they don't have to be matched, and a big pile of unfolded underwear and just a big pile of black undershirts. The amount of stress that left my life was insane. It was insane. And the only reason I wasn't doing that is because, well, I'm supposed to fold my socks and I'm supposed to fold my underwear, and I'm supposed to have a wide array of extravagant shirts or whatever. But, like, who sets some people. When I was a kid, and I internalized it. If I really take inventory of myself, I don't care. I don't care what shirt I'm wearing at any given time or if my underwear is folded. And so any given, like, laundry hack system probably wouldn't be very useful for me because I figured that thing out in a very different way. So I think we advocate in the book for taking inventory of the things that you feel shame about and trying to trace them back to where that began. And do you really care about that, or did somebody in your youth Tell you you were supposed to care about that. About that. And if the answer is, yes, I do care, cool. But the answer may well be, well, you're right, I actually don't care. And that's just as useful.
- [33:53]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, well, and it's especially like tracing stuff back to your youth where you're just like, that wasn't even something that someone took seriously. It was a throwaway line in a cartoon that I heard, oh yeah, cleanliness
- [34:05]
Eric Goode
is like next to godliness. I heard that in a cartoon at some point when I was a kid and now it just rings in my head all the time when I'm cleaning. I'm just like, ooh, look at this. Wow. I'm doing that thing that the cartoon said was good. Like, it's amazing how much that kind of stuff sticks with you.
- [34:17]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah. And she's like, oh yeah. The seven year old me did not know that that was not actually important.
- [34:23]
Eric Goode
Yeah, yeah. I think we get left with a bunch of residual stuff. I think everybody leaves childhood disheveled. You know, childhood is a hell of a thing and it leaves us with a lot of stuff that I think as adults it's our responsibility to suss through. And I think that's certainly the case when you're coming to terms with your neurodivergence. Because kids with ADHD hear a lot more negative comments about their behavior than their non ADHD counterparts. One study said it was somewhere around 20,000 negative statements by the time they turn 18. So there's a lot of gook from childhood stuck all over you when you enter adulthood. And it's really hard to notice them sometimes. So trying to really take inventory of, of, of what you feel shame about and what causes you to feel like you're a bad person. I think it's just super important and very difficult and takes a long time, but it's worth it. Yeah.
- [35:11]
William Curb (Host)
There's been certain things in my life where I'm like, oh, I have to do it this way. And then they're like, step back. And I'm like, why?
- [35:17]
Eric Goode
Why? Who said that?
- [35:19]
William Curb (Host)
Exactly the same thing with like the laundry where I'm like, oh yeah, I just have like bins that I throw my clothes in now because I don't want to hang them or fold them.
- [35:27]
Eric Goode
Separating silverware, you know, until they're little things. Like if I need a spoon, I can see the difference between a spoon and a fork. They don't all have to be in their own little organized things. But I know that it's cool. That's quite a chaotic way to live, but, you know, works for me.
- [35:40]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah, that's like, my favorite part of, like, unloading the dishwasher is just like, everything goes in its right place. And I love this. Just hitting the right spots in my plate.
- [35:49]
Eric Goode
Yeah.
- [35:50]
Kate Osborne
Like, makes me feel like you have control over your life.
- [35:53]
William Curb (Host)
And I think that is also some. One of those things where, like. Oh, yeah, there's parts of my life where I, like, love these. These things, and I want that to be everywhere in my life. And it's like, that's not how my brain works, though.
- [36:01]
Kate Osborne
No, it's. Yeah, it's very selective.
- [36:04]
William Curb (Host)
Yeah. And I think that was one of the things with the book was like, oh, yeah, you need to do things the way your brain works, not the way Steve's brain works. Do what works for you.
- [36:13]
Kate Osborne
Yeah. I mean, that was like, the weirdest part of writing a book about adhd because it's like, I can tell you all day what works for me, but if you go home and you start, you know, sorting your dishes, by the way that they remind you of Shakespeare characters, that's not going to work for. For you because you're not me. And my brain works differently, you know, and so, like Eric said, like, the. The biggest thing that we wanted to do was help people develop the skill of building their own systems and structures. Like, I don't care how you do your laundry. What I care about is giving you the tools and the introspection to say, okay, what do I actually care about? What do I actually need? What are the stor. Been told about laundry, about, you know, personal care tasks, that kind of thing. And do any of those. Are any of those stories true for me anymore? Do any of those stories need to ring true? Like, a lot of women get the messaging that, like, if they are not constantly doing the laundry, folding the laundry, taking care of the household, they're not a good wife or they're not a good partner. You know, like, they're. They're a letdown. They're somehow a disappointment. And it's. Well, no partners can share tasks. However, those tasks need to be shared in order to make sure that, like, everybody has equity and executive functioning and that kind of stuff. But there's like, this shitty little voice that still lives inside my head that it's like, well, you don't do your husband's laundry, so you're not a very good wife. And it's like, no, that's not true. And so a lot of the conversations around systems and structures are really about dismantling systems and structures. They're about dismantling the ideologies that we grew up with and were conditioned to believe are like universal truths and then moving into a new truth and a new understanding of ourselves. And I think that's like, just like a really powerful place to be in your life of getting to say, I get to choose the things that I care about, and I care about putting my little fork in the little slot because it feels so good whenever I do it, but I don't care about my socks. I don't care about my underwear. Like, you get to choose. And that's kind of a beautiful thing.
- [38:19]
William Curb (Host)
Although then managing that too, with, I'm gonna have people come over to my house, and they're gonna care.
- [38:25]
Kate Osborne
See, that's. That's one of the things that I really like even now, is something that I struggle with. But what I kind of realized is that it's kind of the same conversation about being 15 minutes late, right? Because, like, if you are 15 minutes late all the time, that's a you problem. But if, like, your friends who love you and appreciate you and ideally, like, understand you and your brain and the. The challenges and the struggles, if they come over and they're, like, aghast that you have a pile of mail on the counter or your house is cluttered or whatever, and they're, like, shocked and appalled, then maybe. Maybe those people aren't the type of friends that you need. Or, you know, maybe it's. It's more about explanation and saying, hey, like, you know, you come over to my house and I. I do 30 different hobbies. And so there's like an art pile, you know, and there's a fabric pile, and there's things. And my friends know this, my friends know. And so it is. It's. I used to feel such shame and embarrassment because I grew up in that very Midwestern. Like, when people come over, we mustn't let them know we live in our house. We mustn't give them clues that people live here. It must be spotless and. And. And bland. I kind of went the opposite direction, and I was like, my space is going to represent me. It's going to represent my brain. It is going to work functionally for me and my brain. And I'm not going to worry about, like, all my friends might judge me because I keep all my dishes, I took all my cabinet doors off, you know, or I'm not going to really spend a lot of time thinking about. But the next owners of the House because I live here now and I need systems that work for me. And I like bright, vivid colors. And I'm going to paint the rooms the colors that I want because I think that I deserve to live in a space that brings me joy and, and makes me happy to be there. And I don't really care about the person who buys my house Hypothetically, in 20 years when I'm dead. Do you know what I mean?
- [40:15]
Eric Goode
Yeah.
- [40:16]
William Curb (Host)
How am I going to mind read what they want?
- [40:17]
Kate Osborne
Yeah. It's like, I don't know, maybe they'll like it too, you know?
- [40:21]
Eric Goode
Yeah. I also think when you're being yourself and you're like, I'm myself. Look at me, I'm myself, you're giving other people permission to also be themselves. Like when I go over to a new friend's house or anybody's house and it's a little messy and there's half finished projects, places and whatever, I feel so much more comfortable. Yeah, I feel so much better because I'm like, oh, one, me too. But also I'm not worried that I'm gonna get my whatever I am into their whatever they are. Like, if I show up to a person's house and they're super clean, then I'm like, oh, I have to be different. I have to behave as if I also live in this perfectly clean little bubble and always use coasters and that kind of thing.
- [41:02]
Kate Osborne
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Eric Goode
So when you do weird things that only you would do, you're doing anybody who sees you do that a favor by showing them, like, hey, you can also be radical yourself all the time. And I think that's pretty cool.
- [41:14]
Kate Osborne
Like, you ever been in a magazine house? Like, what you go over and it's like you're in like a Pinterest. Like, I can't. I get so stressed. I get so stressed out because I'm like, what if I put the thing in the wrong place? And it's like in my house, like, I don't care where you put your cup because there's probably cups everywhere anyway. So, like, just, just be like my priority. My values are around welcome and inclusion, and I want people to feel at home in my space. And so I keep it clean. I prioritize, like, sanitation. Like, I don't like when things are dirty. You know, I. I try and like keep the fridge clean. I try and keep the counters, like wiped down, like that kind of thing, you know, So I want people to feel comfortable. Not like there's a thin layer of grunge over everything. But Like, I want them to feel like they can kick back on the couch. I want them to feel like they can put their cup on the furniture. And it's not gonna, like, offend me, because that's the person that I am. I am casual. I am chaotic. I do a lot of different things. And so I love it. Like, I have. I have a lot of friends who come over, especially during, like, Renaissance fair season. And everybody knows, like, you make yourself at home, you grab what you want out of the fridge, you come kick back, we hang out after, after fair, like. And that's really meaningful that I have those relationships in my life. It comes from that place of. I think I hate the word authenticity because it feels so fake. Like, I'm like, authenticity. But it really is that.
- [42:31]
William Curb (Host)
I think, yeah, it is funny with how something's online. You're like, oh, yeah, I no longer like these words.
- [42:35]
Kate Osborne
Like, I know that people mean it as a compliment when they're like, oh, my God, you're so authentic. And I'm just like, yeah.
- [42:42]
Eric Goode
It's like when you see, like, home style on the menu or something on disabled. Yeah. Similar vibes. It's like, well, if you're telling me that I feel like it's not, you know, like, I would know if it was just off the bat, you know?
- [42:53]
Kate Osborne
Right. It just never occurs to me to lie on the Internet. Like, which I know is dumb because, like, everybody goes online and lies, but it never occurred to me to just, like, not talk about the things that I struggle with. Like, there was no point where I was like, oh, maybe I should, like, pretend that I have my life together. Like, I was like, no, I want to talk about how hard it is for me to do my laundry, and I want to talk about how hard it is for me to shower and brush my teeth because I have felt so alone for so long. There's gotta be at least one other weirdo out there who struggles with the same thing. And then it turned out that there were millions of weirdos out there, and I love them. I love them so much. It's not authenticity. It's just me being, like, pathologically honest.
- [43:32]
William Curb
Yeah.
- [43:33]
William Curb (Host)
Which is, you know, very much on brand for adhd, where it's just like, where I'm like, I'm gonna share this much, and I'm like, that never. That never works. It just all gets back to me fast.
- [43:41]
Kate Osborne
And here's my entire backstory. Thank you so much.
- [43:44]
William Curb
So I was wondering if there were
- [43:45]
William Curb (Host)
any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with.
- [43:47]
Eric Goode
The book is called the ADHD Field Guide for Adults, comes out March 3rd. So if it's after March 3rd when you're listening to this, you may acquire the book. Wherever you get your books, we highly encourage you to get it from like a local bookstore rather than like the big ones. But you know, you do your life and if you want to buy it at a local bookstore but they don't have it, you can request that they get it. Or if you go to your local library to get it and they don't have it, you can request it. They get it because libraries are awesome.
- [44:12]
Kate Osborne
The book is available as a regular book. It is available as an audiobook that Eric and I recorded, and it is also available as an epub. And if I may shill one more time, as a result of the success of the book and the podcast and so many other wonderful things, I'm actually going on my first national tour. And so I will be touring around the country doing an original show that I wrote called Wildly Unprepared. And so if you would like to come to see me, Eric and I are also doing like signings and meet and greets for the book. So all of the information with all of that is available@kadiasaurus.com yeah, and I'll
- [44:46]
William Curb (Host)
include links to all that in the
- [44:47]
William Curb
show notes so people can easily find it. But thank you guys so much for
- [44:50]
William Curb (Host)
coming on and spending the time. It was a great conversation.
- [44:53]
Kate Osborne
Yeah, thank you so much. This is great. Thank you so much for having us.
- [44:58]
William Curb
Thanks again to Kate and Eric for coming on the show and thank you for sticking to with us all the
- [45:02]
William Curb (Host)
way to the end.
- [45:03]
William Curb
Be sure to check out their book, the ADHD Field Guide for Adults, and be on the lookout for Kate's national tour, Wildly Unprepared, which you can find more info@kadiasaurus.com before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. 1. Try and understand the difference between shame, a fixed belief about who you are, and guilt, a feeling about what you did. Shame is an unchanging dead end, but guilt is a window for change that allows you to acknowledge a behavior such as being late or having a messy car, without condemning your entire identity because of it.
- [45:38]
Eric Goode
2.
- [45:40]
William Curb
Recognize that defeat is often more comfortable than failure because defeat asks nothing of you. It simply means the game is over. Overcoming ADHD difficulties requires a healthy relationship with failure. Try viewing failure as a data point for dissecting the system rather than just a reason to stop trying. 3. Many ADHD systems fail because they are built to satisfy residual gook from childhood. We often have these internalized rules about how things should be done, like folding socks or separating silverware that have no basis beyond that's just how we've always done it. Try and audit your tasks to see if you actually care about some of these results. If you don't, dismantling the expectation, like using bins instead of folding laundry, can remove the cognitive load of performance you don't actually value. Alright, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript. You can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 279 and if you'd like, email even more hacking your ADHD be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I try and give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, and everything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, but your mileage is going to vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com newsletter to sign up. Also, be sure to check out the Patreon, which you can find@hackingyouradhd. It's a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of Patreon get the same stuff. I try to get a few things out there every week, including early access to episodes and some behind the scenes content. Again, that's@hackingyouradhd.com Patreon and there's also the Hacking RADHD Discord, which you can get access to from hackingyouradhd.com discord and also don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find@YouTube.com Apple hacking your ADHD and finally, if you'd like another way to support the show, the
- [47:39]
William Curb (Host)
best way to do so is to
- [47:40]
William Curb
tell someone about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player. And now for your moment of Dad I can't believe they stopped printing the penny. It just doesn't make sense.
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