The Unwritten Rules of Neurodivergent Friendship with Caroline Maguire

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hacking Your ADHD
Episode Title: The Unwritten Rules of Neurodivergent Friendship with Caroline Maguire
Host: William Curb
Guest: Caroline Maguire
Date: April 6, 2026
Episode Focus: Exploring genuine connection, overcoming shame, and building authentic friendships as a neurodivergent adult, drawing from Maguire's upcoming book "Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults"

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode centers on the unique challenges and strengths neurodivergent adults bring to friendship. Host William Curb and social skills coach Caroline Maguire dive into practical frameworks, mindsets, and personal stories that break down how to authentically build and maintain friendships as someone with ADHD or similar neurodivergence. The conversation covers masking, rejection sensitivity, interest-based connection, managing social energy, and methods to nurture trust and reciprocity—all through a neurodivergent lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to Friendship "Neurodivergent Style"

[03:00]

• Caroline Maguire introduces her forthcoming book, “Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults,” emphasizing that standard friendship advice often excludes neurodivergent experiences:
  • “Most of the books out there about friendship are for typical people ... when I would read them, I’d think, this is so great but I can’t do it this way.”
  • Her approach offers flexible, non-prescriptive guidance, encouraging readers to pick and choose what works for them.

The Challenge of Authenticity and Masking

[06:08]

• Both discuss how masking (suppressing authentic traits to fit in) impacts both the ability to connect and the perception of being introverted vs. just socially fatigued.
  • Maguire: "Some of the masking isn't my personality or my quirks; it was really this idea that I was trying to do it all … it’s a journey for us."

Shame, Cynicism, and Social Loneliness

[07:56]

• The persistent shame around struggling to make friends, stemming from negative childhood experiences and societal expectations, is explored.
  • Maguire: "I just want to remove the shame because I think we didn't have a playbook and I think it was a less tolerant world … I’m hoping [the conversation about loneliness] destigmatizes it."

Redefining What Friendship Means

[12:17]

• Not everyone is meant to be a close friend; it’s normal and healthy to be selective, and it's important to recognize different levels of friendship.
  • “You’re going to have different friends for different purposes ... Not everybody is going to be a good, good friend. You get two or three of those over your lifetime." — Maguire [12:17]

Leaning into Shared Interests and Finding "Your People"

[13:53]

• Shared interest is positioned as the primary path to meaningful connection for the neurodivergent: "Interest is our fuel and interest is the way forward."
• Info-dumping and passion-driven conversation can be doors to connection within fandoms or specialized communities.

Small Talk, Chit Chat, and Social Battery Management

[16:47]

• Both discuss discomfort with purposeless small talk and the preference for interest-driven, purposeful conversation.
  • Maguire: "Some people don't enjoy that kind of chit chat, it drains your energy ... In some cases, it’s not worth expending the energy."

Oversharing, Self-Regulation, and the "Ice Cream Scoop" Method

[22:16]

• Maguire introduces the “Ice Cream Scoop” method for appropriately pacing self-disclosure:
  • “If you think about sharing just like you're taking a scoop, and then they take a scoop ... so you start out at that level of like, I'm gonna say instead of everything about childhood trauma, I'm just gonna say like, my parents are difficult.”
• Oversharing can lead to “self-regulation hangovers”—the shame spiral after telling too much too soon.

Reading the Room and Reciprocity in Friendship

[25:30]

• Lack of a clear playbook for “reading the room” frustrates many neurodivergent adults; Maguire’s frameworks and checklists aim to remediate this.
• Reciprocity is vital: one-sided relationships are common and assessing if a friendship is lopsided is encouraged.
  • Curb reflection: “I try to be very giving in a friendship ... being like, oh, it’s kind of important for both sides of that to be going through.” [26:33]

Rejection Sensitivity, Rumination, and Challenging the “Rejection Lens”

[30:35]

• Rejection-sensitive dysphoria is discussed, along with the brain’s tendency to stick to negative social stories.
  • Maguire: “Our brains naturally hang on to negative social stories like velcro while letting positive ones slide off like teflon … it is really easy to get caught in those loops.” [33:41]
• Pattern-interrupts (journaling, challenging assumptions) are emphasized as tools to break out of ruminative cycles.

The Power of "Plopping"

[34:48]

• Maguire shares Jessica McCabe’s wish for a “plop” friendship—someone you’re so comfortable with that you can just show up, lounge, and decompress together.
  • "You have to find people, you have to vet people ... you might think, ‘Oh, this person's going to be my plop,’ and then they turn out to be a terrible, toxic narcissist ... Sometimes I'd rather plop with someone virtually than not plop at all.” — Maguire [34:48]

The Importance of the “Third Place”

[38:43]

• The concept of a “third place” (community hub outside work/home) is introduced as a low-pressure environment for forming connections through repeated, casual proximity.
  • Maguire: “When you are near people and you show up every week at the same time, people get used to seeing you there. They include you, they get to know you … it’s part of how you grow friendship.”
• Online communities and activities also count as third places, especially for the socially anxious or geographically isolated.

Individual Social Needs & Honoring Your Own Path

[46:20]

• A core theme is rejecting neurotypical “rules” for friendship, finding individualized approaches that suit one's own needs, energy, and pace.
  • “Stop seeing friendship as something that you have to comply to these standards ... start finding what you need and what fills your social cup.” — Maguire [46:20]
• Trying new things in small steps is encouraged for those intimidated by the process.

Vetting Friends: Quality over Quantity

[47:17]

• It’s essential to check out potential friends before diving in; not everyone rushing into your life is a safe or healthy connection.
  • "You have the right to check people out, get to know them, vet them a little bit … we do all this with dating apps, we can do it with friends too." — Maguire [47:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you don't like something, just don't do it ... This isn't a prescriptive book, this isn't like a follow steps one, two, three.” – Maguire [03:00]
• “Everyone's different … when you meet someone who's neurodivergent, you met one person that's neurodivergent.” – Curb [04:22]
• “The worst feeling is when you feel like, ‘I don't have any answers and I don't know what to do and I’m so frustrated.’” – Maguire [24:57]
• “I wish that I could make people feel less shame so that if someone is chastising you about lateness that we could have the confidence to say, well, you're just not my people … those quippy comment people, I hope you're not tolerating them because they're not your people.” – Maguire [12:17]
• “Reciprocity … I have literally lists of things to check so that you can troubleshoot: Is my relationship lopsided? Am I giving too much?” – Maguire [27:06]
• "Plopping" as the ideal friendship: “She wants to like walk down their driveway, take the mail out of their mailbox and walk in the back door and plop on their couch.” – Maguire, retelling Jessica McCabe’s vision [34:48]
• “You can do things in degrees. You can do what’s right for you right now.” – Maguire [48:25]
• “Finding your people: interest is the gateway … instead of feeling ashamed of them the way we were grown up to feel, embrace it and let that be the gateway to you finding your people.” – Maguire [13:53]
• “I think for us … it's sometimes hard for us to show up, hard for us to keep a schedule, so that’s why I recommend that your third place be something you really love—something that has a magnetic draw.” – Maguire [41:10]

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Timestamps by Topic

| Timestamp | Topic | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:02 | Introduction & Guest Bio | | 03:00 | Why traditional friendship books fall short | | 06:08 | Masking and authenticity in social settings | | 07:56 | Shame and loneliness in adult friendships | | 12:17 | The myth of universal friendship and being selective | | 13:53 | The power of shared interests in finding connection | | 16:47 | Small talk, chit chat, and energy management | | 22:16 | Oversharing, the Ice Cream Scoop method, and trust | | 25:30 | Reading the room and challenges of non-neurotypical cues | | 26:33 | Reciprocity and lopsided friendships | | 30:35 | Rejection sensitivity and rumination | | 34:48 | The concept and story of “plopping” | | 38:43 | The “third place” and building community | | 46:20 | Social needs: charting your own path in friendship | | 47:17 | Caution in rushing into new friendships | | 48:25 | Final thoughts: Take what you need, friendship in degrees |

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Takeaways & Actionable Advice

• Proximity and repetition help build low-pressure, sustainable connections—find a “third place” that energizes you.
• Shared interest is central for neurodivergent friendships—embrace your passions as a social bridge.
• Stagger self-disclosure: Use the “Ice Cream Scoop” method to match the other person and build trust incrementally.
• Recognize and challenge negative social scripts and rejection stories your brain feeds you.
• Vet friends just as you would potential partners—not everyone is meant to stay in your life.
• Follow your own pace and needs: You’re not required to follow neurotypical social rules or standards.

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Closing Note

Caroline Maguire’s approach offers hope, validation, and pragmatic steps for anyone who’s ever felt on the outside of “how to make friends.” The episode reframes common struggles—masking, loneliness, social missteps—as hurdles that can be overcome with compassion, self-awareness, and the right frameworks. “It’s time for us to have the friendships we deserve,” Maguire reminds us [48:25]. And that starts by finding your people, on your own terms.

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Transcript

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[William Curb]

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[Carolyn McGuire]

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[Podcast Narrator/Host]

welcome to hacking youg adhd i'm your host william curb and i have adhd on this podcast i dig into the tools tactics and best practices to help you work with your adhd brain hey team we've all had those moments where we've walked away from our conversation and immediately spiraled into a self regulation hangover wondering if we've said too much or if we're just being tolerated rather than included maybe feeling like this whole friendship thing just isn't for us well this week i'm talking with carolyn mcguire a veteran social skills coach and the founder of the social excellence training program she holds a master's in social emotional learning and is one of the few experts who approaches social skills as a muscle that can be built rather than an innate talent that you either have or you don't her first book why will no one play with me became an instant staple for neurodivergent families helping children struggling with social skills to make friends and with what she learned from that book she's now bringing to her upcoming book friendship skills for neurodivergent a guide for the anxious uniquely wired and easily distracted in this episode we're looking at the mechanics of friendship through a neurodivergent lens we talk about the importance of proximity and shared interest in bypassing the awkwardness of small talk we also touch on the rejection lens and how our history of being bullied or marginalized can often color our current adult relationships carolyn also walks me through some of her most practical frameworks including the ice cream squ scoop method for building trust and why having a third place is essential for creating low pressure social friction if you'd like to follow along on the show notes page you can find that at hackingyouradhd dot com two hundred eighty five all right keep on listening to find out how plopping might be the ultimate friendship tool you

[William Curb]

didn't know you needed i'm so excited to have you here because i've spent the last couple weeks reading your book the friendship skills for neurodivergent adults and fantastic book i really enjoyed it could you tell the audience a little bit about the book and then we'll kind of get into see where we want

[Carolyn McGuire]

to go from there sure friendship skills for neurodivergent adults is a book about how to make friends but neurodivergent style so you know traditionally a lot of books have talked about how to people and basically like how to mask how to twist yourself into a pretzel and my take is really we want to be authentic we want to find belonging and and we want solutions and strategies that work with our brain that take our neurology in mind and there's not gonna be a hundred percent like i blurt i interrupt still it's not as bad as it was but it still happens and there's like you know things that we do differently in friendship this is the first book for us by a neurodivergent person most of the books that are out there about friendship are for typical people and when i would read them i would think this is so great but like i can't do this i can't do it this way so it's coming in april and i'm really excited because i want people to be able to have choice and they can take from it and then leave the rest i say this like eight million times in the book like if you don't like something just don't do it like you don't have to this isn't a prescriptive book this isn't like a follow steps one two three yeah

[William Curb]

absolutely when i was going through it i was just like this is really nicely i mean it's i liked the pacing for the book it didn't feel like i was like ever like completely out of my depth with the ideas or what's going on and it just it did feel really nice to like be like oh yeah these are take what i need and then kind of just go with what works best for me because i mean yeah as we know like when you meet someone who's neurodivergent you met one person that's neurodivergent

[Carolyn McGuire]

everyone's different yeah and i think like i don't know about you growing up but like for me there was this real thing about like be really happy with anyone who wants to be friends with you be like really grateful and there was no choice right so you know it's written for adhd outistic folks and sometimes our social battery isn't what typical people are right so if you're saying to me you have to go to every single event you have to like do every single thing then you're writing for like one neurotype and you're basically always writing for extroverts and i really wanted people to feel like because so many people are so cynical i mean i get dm's that are like i like you caroline and i watch your channel but like i'm super cynical about everything you have to say and i'm like okay but like i think that leads to masking right because i can't do that and my social battery gets run down you know less than some more than others and i'm sure that that's true and everybody is different as you as you said and one

[William Curb]

thing i've always i've been recently thinking about a lot more is the level of extroversion i have or introversion because i kind of think of myself as an introvert but often i'm like is that really just because in a lot of settings i'm masking a lot and that makes me feel like i just don't want to be there i've thought

[Carolyn McGuire]

about this a lot lately because at first when i read about masking a few years ago i was like well i don't mask i get to be my authentic self because i get to work in this adhd world right like i work with all these people jessica mccabe was like yes you do and we talked about it and i thought about it and my daughter is sixteen and she you know has a lot to say and she was like look mom your generation masks a lot and i thought about it and i realized that some of the masking isn't my personality or my quirks it was really this idea that i was trying to do it all and i was and i really like really pivoted after that because i was like wow like even for me being in this friendship world working with people every day to help them make friends it's really like eye opening to go what do i do that is like sort of become part of my water and i don't even think about it and i think that's a journey right it's a journey for

[William Curb]

us about seven years ago i moved to away from where everyone i knew was and so i was like oh i have to make new friends up here and it's hard because you just don't want to you have to like not do stuff i mean it also was hard because moved two years later we went straight into the pandemic and so then that changed everything the pandemic oh but yeah it is a lot of the there's a lot of work that goes into it and a lot of us want everything to be seamless and easy because often that's how you know when we're kids and we're on the playground we're like that kid's wearing a minecraft shirt i'm wearing a minecraft shirt we should be friends and it's a little bit harder and then when

[Carolyn McGuire]

we're not right we're like why am i not friends with that minecraft shirt person because we should be friends and i remembered i don't know about you but i remember having those thoughts i remember thinking so terrible you should like me we're so similar but i think i think it is also this shame like i don't know about you but like what i hear from our community so much is shame about what we experienced on the playground shame about it being hard to make friends as an adult and i feel like the one good thing that's come out of the pandemic okay if we can like have one thing it's that i'm not happy we are in a state of loneliness throughout the world and that it's become something that like the princess of wales is talking about and harvard is talking about and everyone's talking about but i do the one thing about it is that some people then get to understand like this is really hard and wow you've always said it's been hard and typical people maybe understand a little better and then the other thing is i'm hoping that it destigmatizes it that like when you open a newspaper and you read that like a lot of people are having trouble with loneliness you realize like it's not just us it's and and i know the cynics are going to say well caroline we've been doing this like way longer than they have and like whatever i know that but i just want to remove the shame because i think we didn't have a playbook and i think it was a less tolerant world like i think there was less coming from parents and caregivers okay we were just talking before about my little pony right and how your kid is watching my little pony and it's these messages about friendship like when we were growing up it was a message about five more my little bony like it wasn't like oh be kind

[William Curb]

you know yeah it was very funny because my daughter was like oh can we watch some of the original i'm like we can but you won't want to and she found an episode she played it and she's like thirty seconds and she's like wow this is awful

[Carolyn McGuire]

welcome to the eighties kid and yeah

[William Curb]

that's it is like oh now we do have a lot of yeah we do have a lot of understanding that friendship is important because i was like should i should we talk about why friendship is important i'm like no i don't know if that's something people really need like people generally want to have

[Carolyn McGuire]

friends i think the only thing to sort of say is to the cynics the way i set up the book because i had many many people say to me even people i interviewed for this book who aren't named necessarily because some people were like i don't want you to name me and i'm totally cool with that but even some of the named people were like i'm so cynical that this could work and the way i set up the book was like i say in the first chapter like if you want to just read this and then put it down and then come back to it if you want to do one small piece and have that journey and then come and add more like i think that's the only thing because i do think there's a piece where i want to say to the cynics you deserve this and by opting out of it completely and believe me i've had times in my journey after i was bullied after whatever when i was a kid where i was just like i'm not sure i'm gonna do this or i was like i'm gonna have my like two friends and that's it and that's fine as long as it's not that you are opting out because i think then you're allowing people to deprive you of something that you deserve and that we can find even if it's online even if it's with other neurodivergent folks like there are places where you will be beloved and you deserve to feel that yeah

[William Curb]

yeah and it's when you don't have it for a long time it kind of does feel that like oh well this is just how life is i'm an adult now and we don't have

[Carolyn McGuire]

close friends anymore or i can only

[William Curb]

have neurodivergent friends yeah there's certainly some people that will not understand being neurodivergent but you know as you like reiterated in the book a number of times not everyone's gonna be your friend and that's okay like you don't want that and not everyone's going to be the

[Carolyn McGuire]

same level of friend right and you know ari tuckman said something on my podcast i thought was sort of brilliant because it's like so simple but it just you know coming from someone who is also typical he said you know what caroline he said if people are like you have to be on time and they're super scrupulous about that like they're not your people you know and like i think you're gonna have different friends for different purposes you're gonna have different friends for different phases of your life not everybody is gonna be a good good friend you get like two or three of those over your lifetime i was always jealous because i'm an only child of people with sisters because i was like oh then they have like a built in friend and some of my friends are like nope that's not what happened but i mean i do think that too like i wish that i could make people feel less shame so that if someone is chastising you about lateness that we could have the confidence to say well you're just not my people and i know that that's like so much easier said than done but like i wish that because i do think that that's the truth like there are people who don't care and then there are people who cajole you and put you down and make little quippy comments those quippy comment people they're not i hope you're not tolerating them because they're not your people there

[William Curb]

is that thing where it can be hard to be like oh i can kind of choose who i want to be around i don't have to settle for these people that i normally see all the time but aren't my people

[Carolyn McGuire]

and you having all of this stuff behind you it just reminds me of one of the other central things that i talk about which is to find your people interest is our fuel and interest is the way forward and i think that is really different from other friendship books because yeah friendship books tell you dating apps tell you like join stuff but i'm saying like go deep like go to fandoms go to like run a comic book thing with other people who love comic books and have that be your community like go to your interests and instead of feeling ashamed of them the way we were grown up to feel embrace it and let that be the gateway to you finding your people because i love true crime and i have all these communities i'm in where i talk about these like things that no one else cares about like no one cares but these people

[William Curb]

care bonding over shared interest is very special and especially for neurodivergent individuals where we're just like i want to info dump about this thing and then the person being like i'm so glad you

[Carolyn McGuire]

did yeah like i've been kind of giddy today because of some stuff i love the royals too and it's again it's like so bizarre i don't know how i ended up this person and i've been like giddy today over things that have been happening and it's weird because if i didn't have those people that share that interest i would just be by myself being giddy over these bizarre things but if you have people that you become friends with through these interests then it allows you to bond quicker like we want things to go quickly right we don't love the you know i have the different levels of friendship different stages of friendship in the book and i think it's important for us to know and i think it's important for us to know that even with neurodivergent people things can can slow down so that you build trust and you don't give your trust away and you're treated well but it's a lot easier to make friends when you have that shared interest to talk about oftentimes

[William Curb]

i know for myself if i don't have a specific reason to talk to someone i probably just won't that's so

[Carolyn McGuire]

honest i love it

[William Curb]

it's like it happens when i go to the bus stop in the morning and i'm to like wait with my kids and like there's the other parents there and i'm like i don't have anything to say so i'm just standing here it's taken a while to get past that like awkwardness of like oh yeah i just don't have to talk if we don't have anything to talk about and but it's also different than with like the friends where i'm like oh i know you're going to love this and so like you know immediately finding a friend and i have been chatting a lot recently about a new book that we are looking forward to coming out and we're just like oh the next book's going to be out and march and it's been waiting for you know like a year and exciting that's going to

[Carolyn McGuire]

happen well and and here's the thing i think in the past there was this attitude that you had to to sort of exit your comfort zone mask up and talk to those people at the bus stop right now if my kid needs friends and they like a kid at the bus stop i will do that chit chat because i want my kid to have that and unfortunately parents grease the wheels a lot in socialization nowadays more than for us where i don't even know if my parents knew where i was let alone who i was friends or not friends with but i think nowadays there's i hope there's more understanding of like some people don't enjoy that kind of chit chat it's hard for you it drains your energy and you know in some cases it's not worth expending the energy right because it doesn't make you feel more connected i actually think it makes you feel more lonely in some cases because you're like oh now i just had this really awkward chat and i just felt instead of embraced i felt tolerated

[William Curb]

yeah definitely with i mean especially this is i'm like yeah these are people that i see regularly but like i can clearly tell that we're both not each other's people and that's fine but it is the like there is like a sense of like oh yeah these are not people i would talk to any other time and that is like there's a separation there yeah i mean

[Carolyn McGuire]

absolutely and i think you know i think it's okay to say that chitchat is not our thing i talk a lot in the book about if you want to do it here's how to do it right because a lot of people write me and ask me about that and it's something that's like a really popular topic and i do talk about if you joined an activity for your special interest and you don't make conversation then you can't get to know people so here's how to do it right and that i feel like feels better to us because it's like purposeful like i want to get to know people i want to talk about these things i'm interested in i don't want to feel them out and see if they're interested in them too i feel like that feels better to us than just this purposeless thing yeah so i'm

[William Curb]

thinking about this in december i got selected for jury duty and so i was in this like trial for two weeks and we were i'm in the like jury room with you know all the other jurors and like we had quite a few breaks where we're just sitting there and just like chatting about nothing because there's jury duty was very

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

boring

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[Carolyn McGuire]

oh my god i've been on a jury it was so it was not only boring it was like there was a lot of like hurry up and wait and then like go back to a room and then come back out i know it's our civic duty but i hated

[William Curb]

made me really question about maybe the system needs some updates but it was while i was there i was really thinking about like i am spending a lot of time with these people and sometimes getting to know a little bit about them but oftentimes very superficially a lot of like complaints about work and that kind of thing of what i'm learning about and although sometimes more deeper i learned a lot about one of the jurors opinions on the second amendment and her being quite upset that she could not bring her gun to the courtrooms but it's like this kind of thing where i'm like none of these people were really my friends but it was like i had to spend time with them and so we had to find ways to make

[Carolyn McGuire]

it more enjoyable and i think that that's true and i think that goes to the workplace right if you are in the workplace then and you are you know even let's say you're like i don't really want friends in this place i would say pick up the book because it can teach you how to sort of make it less boring make it more enriching and also how to know stuff that you need to know by getting to know people so that you know what's coming down the pike right you have allies for things you have people to reach out to for things and it's less lonely there's more camaraderie and i think when you're thrown in like a jury two d type situation yeah like i'm gonna make chitchat because i also may want to influence people right like i may want them to like listen to me at some point it is awkward because it

[William Curb]

is usually very superficial yeah and it's definitely something where as like a neurodivergent adult it's really hard to be like when do i want to dive deeper in with these people and when when am i over sharing and i think

[Carolyn McGuire]

that's where you like have to look for the the signals people give you like if they you know share something about their life then you can share in line with what they say i have this thing called the ice cream scoop method ice cream scoop method i can say things and it's like if you think about sharing just like you're taking a scoop and then they take a scoop and then i take a scoop then you're adding each time and so you start out at the you know they're not your friends right they're acquaintances they're people you say hello to so you're starting out at that level of like i'm gonna say instead of like everything about childhood trauma i'm just gonna say like my parents are difficult right but then if they also say yeah the holidays are coming and my parents are difficult then they've they've kind of sent you a signal right and so what i talk about a lot in the book is like how to look for those signals and then how to look for signs that someone is looking to share more with you and looking to invite you to share and i know that it takes self regulation and some people might say oh you know this is a lot of work but my thing is when we share too much forget about the shame cycle that results we're giving away our trust and in some cases like the workplace it might not be a great idea and i think the reason why we have the self regulation hangover from oversharing is that we kind of know that you know like we don't maybe have the intellectual conversation with ourselves but we

[William Curb]

know that where we go man if someone had told me that i might be a little uncomfortable too yeah and

[Carolyn McGuire]

like or like you you just can't believe you said it like we've all had that moment probably where we're like i can't believe i said that and as a person who used to overshare a lot i don't think it ever completely goes away like i have days where i'm tired and i i say too much but i've been able to learn about people's you know levels of intimacy and when to share what and i've made rules for myself and i've worked on the self regulation part so it's not you know it's not a constant thing that that brings me as much shame and so i think it's important for people to know that there's a method to figuring out what to share and what not to share that they can learn so that they can build that trust and build those friendships

[William Curb]

yeah there's a lot to try and navigate there but i do think it's something that is important to remind people that yeah you you are capable of

[Carolyn McGuire]

of navigating it absolutely i think the worst feeling is when you feel like i don't have any answers and i don't know what to do and i'm so frustrated and so that's why i've always done what i do like i've always done what i do out of frustration that basically people write articles and they say you adhd people you should read the room but then they don't tell us how to read the room like that's how all this started i was just like impatient with the fact that we were cajoled and chastised all the time without any roadmap of like well great so how do i do

[William Curb]

that yeah and you're like well i'm being just like that person and everybody likes that person i was like well yeah but you're not that person hard to be like oh i need to be my own person but also it feels like one of those things where it's just like oh i yeah i can't find those right answers and so yeah having a book is a great

[Carolyn McGuire]

starting place well and i think also it's timely i think that a lot has happened since the pandemic and i think that we've really as a community kind of come together and there's a lot on the internet where people are saying like i don't want to be tolerated and i don't want friendship to feel the way it's felt i want to have genuine connection and i think that is a piece in the past twenty one years that i've been a coach it feels different to me like it feels like we're more empowered and more seeking for people to understand us and not just like try to fit

[William Curb]

into a box and this reminds me of i was listening to the book while walking through costco and then the particular line just like hit me and i'm like then standing in the middle of the aisle being like huh which was just about like the two way street of a friendship and the like i'm typically a person that tries to be very giving in a friendship and be the person that's like yeah how i feel doesn't matter we'll just do whatever you want to do kind of and being like oh it's kind of important for both sides of that to

[Carolyn McGuire]

be going through yeah it's so funny because i've been doing the audiobook in the studio the past week and i was i was really glad because you forget things but i have a whole way to check for reciprocity because it's a big thing where like we were kind of taught exactly what you're saying to just give and then we realize the friendship is lopsided or we realize we're giving more than they are or like a question that comes up a ton is like what if i'm the person who makes all the plans and then you feel like embarrassed or you feel like maybe they don't really care about me maybe they'll only come because they make plans and so i have literally like lists of things to check so that you can troubleshoot like is my relationship lopsided like am i giving too much and i think that goes back to the oversharing and the building of trust like trust is track record and so every relationship is the track record so there's always times in relationships where things are uneven i mean there's times when you know someone is busy someone has a sick parent but i think like to to be able to sort of look at that and see if it is a two way street and if there is that reciprocity yeah

[William Curb]

because i i know so many people i've seen online discussing like well if i just stop texting this person then i'll never hear from them again and so are they really my friend that's a weird question to answer i mean

[Carolyn McGuire]

the hardest part about that answer is i know neurodivergent people who never text back right so i so need to know more about that situation when people say stuff like that to me because i'm like well you know there's a ton of people listening to this who are like i don't text back right but i still like you so i think that's that's not a simple question in a way my instinct is if they don't if they're not neurodivergent and they don't text you and they don't show signs of of interest then they're probably not a real friend but i also think that this is why this is such a complicated area because i need to know so much more and that's where i have a bunch of things to troubleshoot and sort of ask yourself questions because you know i also think that we can be very sensitive and that's okay but sometimes we frame things in our minds in a way that is extremely negative and when people come to me and they say you know like the friendship is lopsided they don't care you know all this stuff and then i dig a little bit sometimes it's like well that person is having an incredibly hard time right now and you know we're adults hard times can go on for a while you know it's not like when you're a kid where you had a hard day and so i also want us to check the story we're telling ourselves cause i think sometimes that story is you know oh here's one all my relationships end and then when i probe a little bit it's like well the relationships weren't real friendships they were more acquaintance or participationships and it's so hard that they ended but it wasn't the same as someone breaking up with you or ghosting you and then the story has become something else and we have to like challenge that that rejection lens right that sort of comes out yeah because

[William Curb]

yeah combining those kinds of things yeah with the rejection sensitive dysphoria and that kind of stuff it's it's very easy to have yourself telling yourself a very negative story about how this is going like oh like you know my friends don't actually like me which is such a very strange story that we tell ourselves where we're like they're just stringing me along for no reason if i think about it for a while that doesn't make as much sense as it made in my head five minutes ago but it is something that i know a lot of people kind of wrestle

[Carolyn McGuire]

with yeah mindset is so important and i have a chapter on mindset and i talk about it a lot in the book because i think like a lot of my clients also do something called i call anxious overcorrection where they get a story in their head they decide someone the last interaction has been shown scientifically colors our view of the relationship in adhd and the problem with that is people have bad days people have stuff going on for themselves and so a lot of times then people send a million texts or ask the state of the relationship i think there's a difference between that and trying to be treated well right trying to be treated well is i want to set boundaries i'm not just going to always people please all that kind of stuff but a lot of times i find that the mindset and the fear leads to you know stories and then those stories lead to really impulsive actions that maybe weren't the best way to handle it and then you actually do lose

[William Curb]

the relationship yeah because there's one thing i've really learned over the years is that i can't read other people's minds and what they want and don't as much as i like anytime i've had a conversation in my head before i have the actual conversation it has never gone the way i thought it was

[Carolyn McGuire]

going to go yeah and i think that's one of the things around rumination right is like one of the things i learned that i share in the book is don't ask why questions because you cannot know why because i can't parachute into your brain and know why it helps to get you stuck in that ruminative loop we like to think about why but we really can't know why and we can't really understand everyone else's motives what we can do is check some things see how we've been treated see what signs there are that this is a real friendship and then if we need to we can set boundaries right but we tend to think we can reason our way through it because that's what rumination does it makes you think i can figure this out but then you're just stuck in the

[William Curb]

loop yeah i am amazed with just how often like my brain is like this thought leads to this thought which leads to this thought and it this is one of the reasons i like journaling and stuff because i can be like i can physically see the loop happening and then be like okay well i need to do something else like this but yeah talking to people and yeah just checking your assumptions yeah it's

[Carolyn McGuire]

so funny because i'm a champion ruminator and i guess i'm kind of a reformed ruminator like i'm so much better than i used to be and checking those assumptions is so important but it's also important to know your brain kind of wants you to be stuck right there's this thing called the velcro principle where the brain hangs on to those negative stories and so and i think for many of us we were we were told a lot of negative things we have some degree of trauma and so it's really easy to get caught in those loops i'm not like saying it's not but i think that knowing that the why questions never they never lead you out they always just keep you stuck and to do a pattern interrupt do something to interrupt that ruminative cycle because your brain literally gets stuck

[William Curb]

yeah and it feels yeah it does definitely feel like oh if i just think about this more i'll figure this out it's a trick so moving on to another idea that i love from the book was this concept of plopping can you talk a little bit about that because i think people will love

[Carolyn McGuire]

to hear about this so a few years ago ned hallowell introduced me to jessica mccabe and he was like you'll like each other and we made a video together and we did like each other and then when she got her book deal i had offered what i've been offering to a lot of people which is you know i was very alone when i wrote why will no one play with me i didn't know a lot of people i knew some people in the add community but i didn't have as many friends i didn't have friends who's written books other than ned hallowell and i wasn't going to ask him every single question i had so i often say to people like if you have a moment when you're just like super overwhelmed or you want to know like why has my publisher not like dealt with this like call me and i'll like we'll talk it through and so i started talking to jessica every friday and right away she would talk about like her friendship goals and she had this vision that i think is just so so what so many of us feel of like she wants to plop with someone she wants to like walk down their driveway take the mail out of their mailbox and like walk in their back door and just like plop on their couch and debrief about the day and i wrote this story in the book because it takes time you have to find people you have to vet people you might meet someone and you might think oh this person's going to be my plop and then they turn out to be like a terrible toxic narcissist you never know right and jessica and i have become really good friends and we virtually plop and i wanted to include that because i think she's still on a journey as her friend i want her to find plop i also think that you know sometimes at least for me i would rather plop with someone virtually than not plop at all or or not or have people you know that are down the street but don't treat me well and maybe aren't as understanding and so it's really just the story of like the the fact that this is all a jo but i love the image of plop because i totally can picture it i've had it at times in my life right i'm an only child so i don't think i'm like quite the candidate for plop because i don't tend to want people just opening my door and coming in like the only child in me is like oh i need my space but i love the image and i felt like it was such a powerful story of just the journey and so when i was writing the book i asked her like could i include plop and she completely approved it and looked at it and loved it so it really like there's a lot of stories in there about my journey but also then other

[William Curb]

people's journeys yeah which is so important because everyone's journey is going to be different it's dad group i do board games with here is like oh yeah that formed because our kids were friends and that's a little unusual for like oh we're like oh yeah this is great we happen to live near each other and our kids like each other

[Carolyn McGuire]

perfect yeah and and it's like things have phases right and so you know you might have that for a while and then like you said you moved and and when you moved you had to make friends and like things do go in phases and i think that as people who were often rejected as kids who we don't like that because it feels scary but i feel like that's one reason i wrote the book because i was like then you have you have a path forward like you could use this book and meet your people and then you don't need it for a few years and then you come back to it right like i want it to be there for people so that they can they can do whatever pieces they want to so there's

[William Curb]

one more topic i wanted to make sure we hit which was that of the third place can you give a brief introduction what the idea of third

[Carolyn McGuire]

place is yeah so the idea of third place is a place that you go where you have community so it could be a bowling alley a bar a coffee shop your church community but we used to have in society a lot of third places and i think our parents had a lot of them and our grandparents had a lot of them and a lot of them have sort of dried up or because we're so busy and we move around more you know like my grandfather was an elk right came back from world war two he has little people and they were like so happy together like they had each other and so i feel like those third places you know people have written about it they they have disappeared in many cases or they exist but we don't make them efficient foundational pinnacle of our lives but they can be a place where you really meet people and get to know them and share interests and also have have the community that makes you feel like you're a part of something as opposed to just like i could be living in any place like i could literally live any place on the planet as long as i have wi fi right like i think that's a big distinction for

[William Curb]

me yeah i know i used to have a i did a lot of pickup ultimate frisbee and that was definitely kind of the third place for me it was you know i get to know a lot of people through that and you know some of them are friends some of them are just people i know there but i think that the big thing there is it's like creating that social friction where i'm like

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

oh yeah this is where i can

[William Curb]

see people that because don't always want people at my house don't always want to be at work and it's you know needs to have if i'm going to see people there needs to be a place that i'm seeing them yeah

[Carolyn McGuire]

and you know i have a friend who since we graduated from college has been a member of a softball league and he talks about it like he's going to the red sox and i'm like we're fifty now so we're definitely not like being called up by the majors but it is his third place right like it's a summer community where they come together and they play these softball games and they like it and for some of us maybe you're like i hate softball or i don't want to do ultimate frisbee or i don't want to do whatever but there are other third places and i think you know what we were talking about is like it's just something that you know there's a real call now sometimes to like bring back that third place and make it something and part of this in the book is that proximity i have three p's to make friends and one of them is participation and one of them is proximity and proximity is so important because when you are near people and you show up every week at the same time people get used to seeing you there they include you they get to know you and also there's just real research that like if you show up to even an online place and have proximity with people that they accept expect you and that that is part of how you grow friendship and i think for us it's sometimes hard for us to show up it's hard for us to keep a schedule so that's why i recommend that your third place be something you really love right it has to be something that has a magnetic draw but you know volunteering can be the third place too right like it can be something that fits you but you know i have friends i'm i'm a not great dog mother i have a fenced in yard and i send the dog outside but i have friends who go to the dog park every single day and if they suddenly didn't show up at the dog park like people would be like looking for them because they have this camaraderie that's developed for some people it's difficult because they're going to say like i have trouble making a conversation i've tried those things so there are skills involved but i think the third place can become that community where we feel less lonely i don't know you had thoughts about the third place like even back at the conference you had thoughts

[William Curb]

about the third i think the proximity thing is so important because it is you need that place that you are going to see people you it and then also with the idea of like

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

this is where the shared interest happens

[William Curb]

often which is why why something like a coffee shop wouldn't work for me also because i i kind of don't want to be a regular anywhere like a coffee shop because that feels a little bit too much like being seen of like oh you can have your regular order i'm like oh no they

[Carolyn McGuire]

know me that way whereas i love that they know my regular order it's so funny but i wouldn't even say that that's the third place fully because they know me in a very very superficial way right like i'm ice tea they don't know me really i think it can be something and i think there are places with like someone was just telling me that they're they they go to a coffee shop where there's like quilting classes and there's like you know role play games and like it's not just a place you get coffee so i think it can be that but i also love that you do not want them to know you're like switching names at the counter i'm like

[William Curb]

this makes me uncomfortable i'm like that's weird i don't know why that makes

[Carolyn McGuire]

me uncomfortable i think many people listening would probably agree with you well the

[William Curb]

thing that like makes me like just mad in my head is like oh i don't want to be it's kind of like the more autistic side of like not wanting to be observed and then i'm like also come look at

[Carolyn McGuire]

my podcast where you know but i think like it's whatever makes you happy and comfortable and and i and the third place to me also now that we like have a broader definition of things can be to me online like i definitely feel like there are a lot of people who find a third place online and i think we really used to run down those online connections i think they were given like less efficacy but now there's studies coming out that show a they're a bridge so if you are super shy and it's super hard for you to do this in person it's a way to get your confidence up find your people and then you could bridge to in person but it also is being shown that for students for a lot of people that is satisfying and they don't want plop right they don't they don't need plop they want just people who fill their day and make them feel happy

[William Curb]

yeah it's finding that connection with someone and that can easily happen with people online where you're like oh yeah some of my best friends no longer live anywhere near me but we stay connected through texting phone calls and chatting online and i don't necessarily think that that friendship needed to have started in person for that to have that deep level it's just that's just how those friendships

[Carolyn McGuire]

happen to start yeah i mean i have a lot of friends that i made twenty one years ago when i started coaching who we used to talk on the phone we didn't even have zoom and they are deep friendships to this day now we zoom but not always you know we'll we'll joke like we're going to talk on the phone like old old style you know and i think i think it's really whatever fills your social cup right rather than what other people think you should do

[William Curb]

yeah and i think that's always one of the hardest things being neurodivergent is what we should do versus what we are told we should do by just

[Carolyn McGuire]

neurotypicals yeah i mean that's really the big one of the big themes of the book is like stop seeing friendship as something that you have to comply to these standards that other people had told you in the past you have to and start finding what you need and what fills your social cup and you know and and then do things in stages like for some people this is a really scary journey so do things in stages if if you need to and like i have in the book one thing to try today and that is definitely for anyone but it's also for the crowd who are like i will read your book caroline and i'm not sure i'm going to agree to do anything and it's like well just try this one thing yeah because

[William Curb]

i mean that is the trick is that you do have to try it's most of the time friends you don't always have an extrovert that finds you and it's like well i'm going to be your your guide well and also

[Carolyn McGuire]

like as a person who used to rush into friendship what i will say that a lot of people can probably relate to is sometimes those people who found me or who also love to rush into friendship you literally got into the relationship and realized like oh my god they are super toxic and i like do not want to be in this relationship and i feel like in my twenties and thirties i was constantly like unwinding myself from someone that i didn't really get to know well enough you know and so i didn't know that like you know they had certain views that i was like oh okay that's that's horrible oh my god you know and so i feel like that's the thing like we have to we have the right to check people out get to know them vet them a little bit i mean we do all this with dating apps we could do it with friends too and it's it's

[William Curb]

so important that we do it because we need to find our people we

[Carolyn McGuire]

need to find our people all right

[William Curb]

well we're coming up on time here i was wondering if you had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the

[Carolyn McGuire]

audience with my final thought is that it's time for us to have the friendships we deserve but if you buy the book you know take what you want and leave the rest and it might be that today certain things are not something you want to do but then you have it for tomorrow when you maybe meet someone maybe you go to your third place and you're like i really want to get to know this person so i'm going to read caroline's conversation chapter even though before i previously was like i don't even i might cut it out of the book you know so i think like give yourself that opportunity to know that like you can you can do things in degrees and you can do what's right for you right now awesome well thank

[William Curb]

you so much for coming on the show i appreciate this conversation so much i think a lot of people get

[Carolyn McGuire]

a lot out of it thank you i'm so glad and thank you for having me

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

thanks again to carolyn for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end be sure to grab carolyn's book friendship skills for neurodivergent adults which is coming out on april fourteenth before you go though let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips one adhd can often lead to oversharing which creates a self regulation hangover of shame the shift here is to view sharing as taking one scoop at a time waiting for the other person to match your level of intimacy before offering more which protects your trust and your energy two our brains naturally hang on to negative social stories like velcro while letting positive ones slide off like teflon recognizing this biological basis allows you to challenge the rejection lens and realize that a friend's lack of a text might be about their own hard time rather than a reflection of your worth three making friends isn't a one two three prescriptive step it's about social friction and proximity by prioritizing showing up at the same place consistently you allow people to get used to you which lowers the barrier for entry into community and future friendships four remember deep friendship doesn't happen overnight and takes work don't be discouraged if your first attempts don't work out keep at it and build those friendships up over time alright that's it thanks for listening i'd love to hear what you thought of this episode feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd dot com contact if you'd like links or to read this information episode's transcript you can go to the show notes page at hackingyouradhd dot com two eight five if you'd like even more hacking your adhd be sure to sign up for my newsletter any and all distractions which comes out every other week in it i give out my best distractions of

[William Curb]

the week be they what i'm reading

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

what i'm playing what i'm watching and everything in between i also try to

[William Curb]

give out a few bits of actionable

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

advice in each newsletter although your mileage is going to have to vary there

[William Curb]

if that sounds like something you're interested

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

in head on over to hackingyouradhd dot com newsletter to sign up you can also check out the hackingyouradhd patreon at hackingyouradhd dot com patreon it's a pay what you want model with all the levels of the patreon receiving the same stuff including early access to episodes and some behind the scenes content you can

[William Curb]

also check out the hacking adhd discord

[Podcast Narrator/Host]

at hackingradhd dot com discord and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel which you can find at youtube dot com adhd and finally if you'd like another way to support the show the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them just click the share button on your podcast player and now for your moment of dad fun fact on average humans eat more bananas than monkeys i mean just last month i ate like six bananas and zero monkeys

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