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America's Town Hall Meeting of the Air 36-04-02 - Will Unionization Promote Industrial Recovery
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America's Town Hall Meeting of the Air 36-04-02 - Will Unionization Promote Industrial Recovery
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- [00:03]
Moderator
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Mr. Matthew Wall
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Moderator
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Mr. Ralph Robey
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Mr. Matthew Wall
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Narrator/Announcer
America's Town Meeting of the Air.
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Mr. Matthew Wall
Will the Unions Promote Recovery? Town Meeting Tonight Town Meeting Tonight Again.
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Narrator/Announcer
Historic Town hall just off Times Square in New York City throws open wide its doors for America's Town meeting of the air for the 23rd in a series of regular Thursday evening meetings presented under the auspices of the League for Political Education, which has been conducting a program on nonpartisan political education for nearly half a century. The League and the National Broadcasting Company join hands in making one of these programs available for the people of America each week. Tonight, the question is will unionization promote industrial recovery? I now present our moderator, Mr. George V. Denny, Jr. Founder and director of America's Town Meeting of the Air. Mr. Denny.
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Moderator
Good evening, neighbors. Once more, the question of unionization assumes a position of foremost importance in the news of the country. Should we have craft or industrial unions? Should the company unions be allowed to survive? Must we have the open or the closed shop? These and other questions are vitally related to the whole problem of industrial recovery and re employment. We have therefore asked Mr. Matthew Wall, Vice president of the American Federation of Labor, an outstanding authority on unionization, and Mr. Ralph Robey, economist and instructor at Columbia University, to give us their views on the topic of this evening's meeting. Will unionization promote industrial recovery? I am happy to present at this time Our first speaker, Mr. Matthew Wall, Vice President of the American Federation of Labor. Mr. Wall.
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Mr. Matthew Wall
Mr. Chairman and friends, the question for discussion is will unionization promote industrial recovery? Unfortunately, the term industry as other terms is subject to a variety of definitions. In this presentation, I shall not limit its terms to those interests who today constitute in a large measure the ownership and management of the industrial activities of our national life. Instead, I intend to embrace the entire economic setup of the nation and its activity as a whole. What is true of the term industry applies with equal force to the term unionization. It too is subject to a narrow as well as a broad interpretation. It will not be my purpose to discuss this subject upon a narrow or limited sphere. In this larger sense, unionization has promoted industry and the general welfare thus conceived. Further, unionization will continue to aid industry and promote the general well being and as well tend to conserve and advance the true principles of democracy, freedom, justice and equality. First, let us look to the negative side of the question that less or no unionization will aid industry and promote the well being. What then has been and is the attitude of mind? And what are the ultimate objectives of those who would view unionization of workers as undesirable or as a public menace? I shall not claim for labor the possession of virtues not found in every other description or classification of groups or of individuals. I will not assert that wage earners, individually or collectively, have not erred. I have disregarded at times both the moral as well as the civil and legal codes. I do affirm, however, that with all our human frailties and shortcomings as a class or as a group, individually or collectively, the worker's conduct and philosophy, both as citizens and workers, have equaled in high patriotic service and Christian order that attained or manifested by any other group or individual, barring none. In addition, I challenge comparison between the attitude of mind, the activities and conduct of wage earners of America and those of any other land thus analyzed. The unionization of America's wage earners has made for the security of our nation and the perpetuity of its democratic institutions. But what has been the attitude of those having been charged with the administration of the rights and prerogatives, the privileges and licenses accorded private industrial enterprise? No industrial country in the world has permitted and encouraged its industries to acquire such vast corporate powers. No nation in the world has permitted, like corporate powers being used to make such open, relentless and destructive war upon the unions and the collective rights of workers. No country in the world has permitted great corporate industries to unite into still larger and stronger combinations or associations, trade or otherwise, for the purpose of preventing their employees from organizing into unions to resist the encroachments of these great corporate grants of power. These great corporate interests, industries and strong employers, associations with huge resources at their disposal, have fought unions and union activities in the courts and have opposed almost every piece of social legislation in Congress and the several state legislative bodies. And all of this to what end? For the purpose of preventing wage earners from organizing in unions so that they may be able to demand their right to collective bargaining. Collective bargaining. Why are we journalists insisting upon the right to union membership and the right to choose their own representatives for collective bargaining? Because as individuals, they are helpless to bargain with the employer on wages, hours and conditions of work unless there can be bargaining on these matters. They represent only what the employer wants to give with no consideration of what a worker thinks he ought to have. Representation in determining the terms of the work contract is a right which reaches to the roots of American ideals of justice and freedom. Faced with stubborn resistance, if not a ruthless and reckless denial of their collective rights and opportunities in bargaining and contracting for standards of employment and conditions of work, confronted with an organized opposition totement to a private economic or industrial dictatorship, there are an ever increasing number of workers who have lost faith in the.
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- [09:15]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Principles of Pure Democracy and who would turn to governmental methods and to political power or for the attainment of these objectives? Thus far the American worker has held fast to the conception of private enterprise. He has clung to his faith in voluntary collective efforts in our social, religious and economic fields. He knows that with freedom to organize there is always at work a temporizing force between right and wrong. He knows too that with freedom for political expression and action there is always a modifying influence upon government. But deny the wage earners that collective freedom essential to their well being and you will destroy the very bases upon which the faith of the great mass of our people is founded. And thus you will have destroyed the cornerstone of democracy, of justice and of equality. It does seem that proprietors and managers of private enterprise, of corporate industry should be aware that a policy of restriction and denial of oppression, injustice and inequality cannot be perpetuated by any sylph constructed theory and practice of private economics, no matter how well sounding, and that sooner or later such a procedure must result in a revolt of the masses. After a generation of conflict, it cannot be said that any definite progress has been made toward the establishment of an equitable American labor policy. There are still those who hold that competition in labor must reign freely. While they would accept a minimum living wage and some restraint upon working hours as a social requirement. They would demand that in all labor negotiations and relationships there should be an unrestrained freedom of choice on the part of management in all matters dealing with the employment contract. What is to be feared in unionization? Just what will unionization result in? The first result of unionization is to effect standardization of wages, hours and working conditions within a trade calling or industry. This means that the less efficient plans to compensate for high costs due to their inefficiency by lowering labor standards are not permitted to do so. It also means that the more efficient plants, unable to increase their profits by attacking labor standards, are compelled to increase them by more efficiency in either branch of management or production or both. Second, unionization will enable labor to cooperate with management in the effort to increase efficiency without fear of having its standards lowered as the indirect result of the technical revolutions constantly taking place. Thus, unionization will promote rather than retard development of efficiency in industry and without interfering with reasonable profits. Then 2. Morale of the production force is an inestimable asset in all industries. Morale rests upon goodwill, confidence in getting a square deal, security in those plans where workers have the right to representation of their own juicing, collective bargaining through union agents, permanent mutual channel for adjusting grievances, and the machinery for cooperation between the union and management in the problems of production. The best conditions are provided for development and maintenance of the best morale in production force. The establishment of the right to representation through agents of their own choosing for the purpose of collective bargaining is a primary step in lifting relations between workers and management from the plane of arbitrary force and conflict to the plane of conference and decision upon the basis of fact. Conference method necessitates argument, convincing assembly of sustaining data, mutual consideration of present and long time interest of the group's concern. The conference and collective agreement strengthen the forces of intelligence, the practice of trying to find mutually acceptable solutions of problems, the practice and outlook of mutuality. Labor maintains that industry is short sighted in opposing the desire of workers for union membership so that they can insist effectively on a fairer distribution of income from the products and sciences which they help to produce. Industry must have a market for its products. It gauges its opportunities for production by the capacity of consumers to buy or to utilize the consumers and services goods on the market. If wage earners can buy shirts, shoes, bread, pay for dental services, keep up repairs on homes, etc. Then the profession, bakers, soup factories, textile industry and the producers of these industries can maintain production. The delicate interrelations within our economic structure make serious the development of unbalance in any relationship. If the tax deal industry in the south underpays its operatives, the retail business of their communities find its trade cut down. If the building trades of any community are idle for a long time, they cannot buy what they want and the industries that feed the retail merchants slackens. Union movement has been the standard making force both in raising wage rates and reducing hours. Within the past 50 years there has been a very substantial reduction in the work week. 50 years ago the 60 and 70 hour week was generally excess accepted. While Now labor urges 40 hours as the maximum and 30 hours as the desirable standard. What would have happened in industry if the union had not been there as the militant outpost insisting upon shorter hours? As technical processes changed and the number of machine operatives steadily increased and hand skills gave way to skill skills in operating highly specialized machines providing the tools of interchangeable parts, industry would have increased its production costs by keeping workers over long on repetitive processes and a large army of unemployed would have been created quickly. As a civilized nation cannot look upon large groups, large those at hands Big news.
- [17:17]
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Mr. Ralph Robey
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- [17:46]
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- [17:48]
Moderator
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- [18:46]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Starving. The producing groups have to support the unemployed. The union has rendered an inestimable service in maintaining our standards. Which industries have approached more or less closely. As the number of industries and their output have steadily mounted, there have to be increasing numbers of families and individuals with income and leisure enabling them to have higher material standards of living. We grew boastful of our American standard of living with its wide distribution of bathtubs, automobiles, radios and silk stockings. Through trade union leadership in raising standards of actual buying power of wage earners, increasing from $21.80 a week in 1881 to $34.75 in 1929. In this same period, union leadership reduced the work week and increased its leisure hours per week by 15 hours. In a highly interdependent national market. Leaving aside the world market, there must be balance between production and consumption. Cooperation with the organized labor movement is the only alternative which can save our present industrial organization from arbitrary governmental regulation or revolution. The cornerstone which present rulers of industry are rejecting. Is the key to an enduring and and beneficent industrial structure which could well serve all citizens.
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Moderator
Thank you, Mr. Walsh. In these highly controversial subjects, there are always at least two sides to the question. We now hear another side presented by Mr. Ralph Robey, lecturer in economics at Columbia University. Mr. Roby.
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Mr. Ralph Robey
Mr. Moderator. Mr. Wall. Ladies and gentlemen. The contention that unionization of labor would promote industrial recovery must rest, it seems to me, upon one or both up too closely related convictions. The first is the conviction that Labour leaders, on the average are more far sighted, more unselfish and more socially minded than the rank and file of the present managers of business. The second is the conviction that the policies which would be dictated by labor if it were in a position of dominance would confer greater benefits upon society as a whole than the policies which have been followed heretofore. Mr. Wall, in his discussion this evening has reflected both of these convictions. His principal emphasis, however, has been upon the second. That is, upon the thought that the policies labour would enforce, if it had the power to do so, would be better for mankind than the policies we have been following. In my discussion, I shall follow this lead of Mr. Wall and also place main emphasis upon the question of policies. First, however, I should like to say that my stressing of economic policies does not mean that I underestimate the importance of a personal element in the problem of the relation of labor to industrial recovery. I think, as a matter of fact, that the personal element is of the utmost importance. But I also think that it does not lend itself to impartial analysis. None of us can prove, for example, either statistically, logically, or historically, that labor leaders as a class are more unselfish than business leaders as as a class, or that business leaders are more foresighted than labor leaders. All of us could name both labour leaders and business leaders that leave something to be desired from the point of view of farsightedness. And all of us could name both labour leaders and business leaders. That would put most of us to shame from the point of view of unselfishness and willingness to work for the general welfare. But such citations would prove nothing and would convince no one. The net conclusion of each of us as to which is the superior group of leaders would still rest upon his own particular prejudices and his own particular economic philosophy. If this is true, there is little point in spending time upon the personal aspect of our problem. I turn then to the question of the economic policies involved. Paramount among these policies, and mentioned by Mr. Wall, is the proposal that labor should have a larger income. In the minds of some of those offering this suggestion, this proposal means apparently merely that labor should have higher wages, should get more dollars in its weekly pay envelope. To others, the proposal means that labor should have a larger share of the total national income, that is, that it should be given greater real wages or a greater ability to purchase commodities. The former of these, that labor should receive a larger dollar income, offers no difficulty of analysis. As a means of helping labor or as a means of promoting industrial recovery, it has nothing to offer. The dollar income of labor is important only in relation to the cost of the things for which it must be spent. In a period of rising prices, the standard of living of labor may be forced lower and lower in spite of rising wages. It all depends upon the relative rapidity with which prices and wages advance. In other words, the important thing about wages from the point of view of labor is not the number of dollars in the pay envelope, but the purchasing power and the debt paying power of those dollars. The second of the interpretations assigned to the proposal that labor should have a larger income, that is the thought that labor should have a greater share of the total national income, is not so simple. The argument underlying this suggestion takes various forms. Generally, however, it is presented as a means of preventing the growth of production from outstripping the growth of consumption. Thus it is maintained that as a result of too large a share of the national income being paid out in the form of dividends, there is not enough left in the hands of wage earners to purchase the goods produced. For a while, it is said, we may offset this disequilibrium between the volume of production and the volume of consuming power by the extension of credit or by the sale of commodities on installments. But this, it is held, offers only a temporary stopgap. Sooner or later, a collapse is inevitable. And that the only method to prevent the recurrence of periods of depression is to pay out a larger and larger share of the national income to consumers through labor. It is not difficult to understand the appeal of this line of reasoning. At first glance it sounds reasonable, but it is not true. It involves one basic defect, and a defect that destroys completely not only the conclusion, but the whole argument. This defect is the assumption that only that portion of our national income which is paid out as wages is used for the purchase of goods. Quite obviously, this is not the case. The corporation president who receives $100,000 a year does not bury the $100,000 in his backyard. The recipient of a dividend check does not cash it and put the proceeds in his bed mattress. The earnings which a corporation retains are not locked up in its vaults. In every case the money is spent. It may not be spent as quickly as it would be if it were in the hands of a day labor, and it may not be spent for the same things. But the fact remains that it is spent. It comes into the market and buys commodities and services just as truly as does the wage of a laborer. If one is to defend the contention that labor should have a larger share of the total national income, therefore, it must be on some grounds other, and that this would prevent a discrepancy between production and consuming power, and hence prevent recurring depressions. Specifically, as I see it, the defense must rest on the ground that money spent by labor would be better directed from the point of view of maintaining business stability than money spent by others. Perhaps over a long period, over a generation or over a century. This would be true. I do not know, and I do not believe that anyone else knows or can know. For I do not believe that anyone is capable of forecasting the effects of economic policies for such a long period in advance. From the short term point of view, our conclusion can be more dogmatic. We can be reasonably sure that such a policy would not be of direct help in solving at least one of the more Difficult problems of this depression. That is the problem of unemployment. For were a larger share of the present national income paid out in wages. It would be spent for the most part in the purchase of consumption goods. Since the vast bulk of the present unemployment is not in the industries producing these goods. But rather is in the so called heavy industries. The present volume of unemployment would tend to be perpetuated. It would tend to be perpetuated until the increased demand for consumption goods. Caused the consumption industries to increase their labor forces by many million. There is no reason to believe that such an increase could take place in the lifetime of most of those who at present are out of work. Such, then, in brief, is my analysis of the proposal. That as a means of promoting industrial recovery. Labor should receive a larger share of the national income. The analysis does not indicate. Let me emphasize that I like the present distribution of the national income. I emphatically do not like. I dislike having such a large portion of it concentrated in a few hands. I dislike having such a small proportion of it going to those millions of our citizens. Who, through no shortcoming of their own, are scarcely able to keep body and soul together. And I dislike, and I dislike intensely having the government cut the heart out of the purchasing power of the wages of our lower income group. Through putting indirect taxes on the necessities of life. All of this, I think, should be corrected and should be corrected at once. But the correction should be undertaken not as a means of promoting industrial recovery. But as a means of getting a greater degree of social justice in our economic system. A second economic policy that frequently is offered by labor as a means of promoting industrial recovery Is the arbitrary restriction of the hours of work. 30 hours a week is the figure most commonly mentioned. In part, this is merely a plan for increasing the proportion of the national income going to labor. As such, it has been covered in the preceding analysis. There is, however, a second aspect to this proposed. This is the thought that such a shortening of the hours of labor would spread work and thereby reduce unemployment. This aspect, it seems to me, deserves special attention.
- [32:05]
Narrator/Announcer
Mr. Roby, I'm sorry to interrupt at this time, but other stations are joining us at this point. This program is coming to you from Town Hall, New York. Back in historic Town hall in New York. For a continuation of America's Town Meeting of the Air. The subject for discussion tonight is Will unionization promote industrial recovery? Our speaker at the moment is Mr. Ralph Robey, instructor in banking at Columbia University, who will now continue.
- [32:49]
Mr. Ralph Robey
This proposal for shortening of hours deserves special attention. Because the spreading of work is not in and of itself an aid to business recovery. Business activity is not a function of the number of people receiving pay envelopes. It is a function of the amount of the pay in those envelopes plus the other income of the country in relation to the amount of production. We do not create prosperity by putting our workers on half time and increasing the number of workers by 100%. Such a process merely means that labor is having to bear the cost of unemployment instead of having the cost borne by society as a whole in proportion to its ability to pay. I recognize, of course, that the reduction of hours proposal ordinarily is combined with the provision that there is to be no cutting of wages, that a labourer is to get as much for 30 hours as he has been getting for, say, 48 hours, and consequently that the proposal is not thought of as just putting men on part time. But remember, and for this I think you should be thankful we no longer have an nra. Consequently, there is no assurance consequently there is no assurance that wage scales would be maintained. It is quite possible, therefore, that should this proposal be put into effect, not only would it fail to be of age or recovery, but it would directly undermine the wages of those at present employed in the few minutes that remain. To me, there is just one more point that I should like to make. This involves the question of the closed shop and in a sense it is the heart of the whole problem we.
- [34:43]
Moderator
Have.
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- [36:19]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Have been discussing or quite clearly the question Will unionization promote industrial recovery? Is not concerned with getting a few thousand more people into our unions. The issue involved is whether industrial recovery would be helped or hindered by placing labor in a sufficiently strong position to enable it to force its future views and policies upon the present managers of business. Theoretically, labour might attain such a position without the closed shop. Practically, we know that under present conditions this is not possible. The whole question of whether unionization would promote recovery therefore becomes a question of the closed shop. And those who defend unionization as a means of promoting recovery must be prepared to defend the closed shop. I wish that I might discuss this aspect of our issue in some detail. Limitation of time makes this impossible. All I can do is to state a dogmatic conclusion. This conclusion is that I do not believe any group, and I do not care whether the group is composed of millionaires or daily. I do not believe that any group should be permitted to get into a position where, as a result of its monopolistic power, it can dictate to and take advantage of other sections of the population. I believe that the individual labor does not have equality of bargaining power with a large employer and consequently that labor unions are desirable and necessary. But I do not believe that the clothes shop or any other monopoly will promote industrial recovery in this country. Thank you.
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Moderator
Thank you, Mr. Roby. Well, now we've heard two doctors disagree. What's the verdict? Well, we'll have our questions next. Will you rise and state the person to whom your question is directed and limit your question to 25 words. Questions, not speeches. Let's have them. Questions, please. Balcony yes, Mr. Robyn Him? Yes, yes. I'd like to ask him if the NRA did not attempt and did not.
- [39:01]
Narrator/Announcer
Actually achieve a degree of success in distributing the national income, and if not.
- [39:06]
Moderator
What he would propose as a method of distributing the national income. Didn't the NRA achieve a measure of success in distributing the national income, and if not, what would you suggest doing about it?
- [39:19]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Mr. Moderator, I thought I was supposed to be limited two minutes in limiting of questions that I can't do in two minutes. Yes, I think the NRA redistributed income and redistributed it in such a way that we had all kinds of new disequilibrium within our economic system. Now, as to how I would distribute it. We have a good many expenses in this country that have to be met. Expenses of the government, expenses of taking care of those that have to be taken care of. I would see that those expenses are met by a tax system which rests upon ability to pay and not upon how will at least affect votes. As at present.
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Moderator
Question added in. Mr. Wall. Isn't it time for the workers to form a real American labor party, to seek by legislation and not by strike its aims?
- [40:31]
Mr. Matthew Wall
The question of the formation of a distinctive labor party in America Is a subject that has received the attention of the labor organizations for many years. Thus far, organized labor of America has reached the conclusion that it is inadvisable to form a distinctive labor party. And for a number of reasons. I can only refer to a few of them. Time will not permit. Of an extensive presentation. First of all, we have here a continental country of 48 sovereign states, a national government which is a federation rather than organic national body, A government that is controlled by constitution, in which the powers are divided into three parts, each designed as a check one upon the other. Therefore, labor in America has realized the difficult task of seeking to accomplish economic redress, advancement and protection through forms of legislation. The long history of organized labor has demonstrated that even after years of struggle in securing certain legislative enactments in states or even in our national government, we may find within a short time thereafter that such legislation is enjoined by our courts and ultimately held to be invalid as being in violation of constitutional authority vested in our parliamentary or legislative bodies. Hence, labor has found that there is but one safe course, one certain course to follow, and that is to obtain these standards by economic power which cannot be taken away by the court, supreme or otherwise. Secondly, the country itself is largely agricultural in character. The states that are industrial in character and where the industrial workers might politically use some influence are comparatively few. Our whole national organization is controlled in the main by the agricultural interest. And until such time that we find the agricultural interest of the conception of the understanding and willingness to unite with labor politically, until that time, any effort on the part of labor would fail. Lastly, labor is interested and does exercise its political power, but it exercises it upon a nonpartisan basis. And it has found that when it solicits the membership of of the wage earners, it does not ask them whether they belong to the democratic, Republican or socialist party. If we Attempted to organize labor upon that basis, There would be still greater difficulty in making any progress in having the unorganized assembled in the unions. These are but a few of the reasons that have induced labor thus far not to formulate a distinctive labour party.
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Moderator
Thank you, Mr. Roy. Mr. Roby. Mr. Roby, you took the position that question. If labor received a greater portion of the national income, it would not be conducive to a restoration of prosperity.
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Mr. Matthew Wall
Do you feel that the president's bill.
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Moderator
The taxing of the surplus corporation surpluses, Will that bring about the Restoration Prosperity? Mr. Rover, do you think that the president's bill to tax the corporation surplus will bring about recovery? I don't know if that question's in order, Mabel. That's not the subject we are discussing this evening. We're discussing will unionization promote industrial recovery? Next question. Yeah.
- [44:40]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Mr. To Matthew Wall.
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Moderator
To Mr. Wall. Yes. In the last few weeks we've heard a great deal question. Are you in favor of the former labor party as some of the leaders.
- [44:55]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Of the American federation of labor and.
- [44:58]
Moderator
Some locals and some national industries have come forward to. Yes, thank you. Are you in favor of the former Labor Party? Mr. Wall?
- [45:08]
Mr. Matthew Wall
I have already answered that question and I say we are not in favor of a distinctive labour party despite the fact that there are some groups who do favor it. Next question.
- [45:18]
Moderator
Mr. Hubbard. Yes, Mr. Roby. Mr. Hubbard. Mr. Robey, does all of the corporation.
- [45:24]
Mr. Matthew Wall
President'S hundred thousand dollar salary go back into circulation or does a substantial part of it go into channels where it's relatively inactive?
- [45:32]
Mr. Ralph Robey
For example, into unused capital plant or into gold or currency? Hall, I think that from time to time we do have part of the national income withdrawn from economic use. Economic use in the sense that it results in the purchase of goods. Perhaps the best example and the most extensive example recently was in the inflation stock market. Inflation before 1929. I have no idea how much money was used there, But I would be willing to bet that for every dollar of salaries and dividends that went into the market, Our banks, just out of thin air, wrote up at least $2 and put it into the economic system so that there was no loss.
- [46:24]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Mr. Wall.
- [46:25]
Moderator
Mr. Wall.
- [46:28]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Do you think, Mr. Wall, that the.
- [46:29]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Time is coming when unionization would be better organized on the industrial form?
- [46:37]
Moderator
What about unionization on the industrial form?
- [46:40]
Mr. Matthew Wall
The American labor movement has not decreed any particular form that wage earners should follow in organizing, Whether that be upon the craft basis or whether it be upon an industrial basis or any other form. I know there is a great Deal of discussion in the public press and some question in the council of the American Federation of Labor upon the issue of prep unionism as against industrial unionism. I want to assure those not familiar with the affairs of the American Federation of Labor that the issue is not that. It is only a question as to the best method of organizing the unorganized in the mass production industries. It is true that there is a division of opinion as to which form is best and most desirable. The American labor movement, however, has not attempted or does not dictate that form of organization that should govern. We have found by experience that in some occupations it is better that the wage earners are organized by their trade or by their occupation rather than by the industry. In other instances it has been found to organize them all upon one industrial plant is the more efficient, the more satisfactory form. Again, we have found that it is desirable that a number of crafts associate themselves in groups for the purpose of acting collectively in a semi industrial manner. I mention these forms merely to indicate that the American labor movement does not conform to any fixed plan that it adopts the industrial as well as the plant as well as the craft plant in organization.
- [48:38]
Moderator
Thank you, Mr. Wall. Question. Yes, Mr. Wall. Mr. Wall, if workers are to have.
- [48:48]
Narrator/Announcer
The right of joining a union, what.
- [48:50]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Should be the attitude of the radio.
- [48:52]
Narrator/Announcer
Audience towards Orbax, which fires workers for joining a union?
- [48:57]
Moderator
What's work is ought to happen, right? First join the union. Never mind, that's out.
- [49:20]
Mr. Matthew Wall
All right.
- [49:21]
Moderator
Down here, down here. Stand over there at the side. Yes.
- [49:25]
Mr. Matthew Wall
This question is addressed to Mr. Wall.
- [49:27]
Moderator
Mr. Wall.
- [49:31]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Are you familiar enough with political economy and history to realize that the strength of organized labor in Germany.
- [49:43]
Moderator
And in Italy is what really caused the dictatorship there? Is the strength of organized labor and Germany caused dictatorship there. So all. What do you think about that?
- [49:54]
Mr. Matthew Wall
These strangers. The strength of the German trade union movement made for the establishment of the Republic of Germany. I dare say that it was the influence of communism which gave ground for the development of Nazism.
- [50:13]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Representative
I'm here on the job site with Dale who's a framing contractor.
- [50:16]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Hey, good morning.
- [50:17]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Representative
Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.
- [50:23]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Yep, they sure are.
- [50:24]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Representative
We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs. All in one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down.
- [50:32]
Mr. Matthew Wall
It's all right.
- [50:33]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Representative
We're so far up here.
- [50:35]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Look at me. Take a deep breath.
- [50:36]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Representative
I'm good.
- [50:37]
Moderator
So good.
- [50:38]
Lowe's Advertiser
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- [50:41]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [50:42]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Get more with geico.
- [50:46]
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- [51:13]
Mr. Matthew Wall
And that is for the destruction of the liberty of the German Wage workers.
- [51:21]
Moderator
Has a question from Never mind. Here's a question from a man out in Minooka, Illinois, Mr. Charles Sherrill. Ought not labor unions to be incorporated so that they can be held responsible in case they inflict damage?
- [51:43]
Mr. Matthew Wall
The propounder of this question apparently has no knowledge of the legal liability of trade unions as a voluntary unincorporated body. A trade union as a voluntary body before the law stands in the relationship of a partnership in which each individual member is responsible without liability for that which the group may be responsible for or benefited by through its collective action. It might be advantageous for labor to incorporate to take advantage of some of the incorporation laws we have because incorporation limits and restricts individual liability. Labor, however, is not inclined to take advantage of the incorporation acts because the moment it does so it places itself in the position of a licensee from the state to carry on its individual and collective activities. It believes as freemen that we have the right to unite collectively for mutual improvement and self advancement without requiring license of the state to do so. And being required to have licensed will also mean that government will control the activities of organized labor. We feel that that is unwarranted and should it ever come that incorporation would be required by law for trade unions to exist and to operate. We would then have taken the first step towards the establishment of fascism and Nazism.
- [53:34]
Moderator
To Mr. Wall oh my, Mr. Wall, again the name of our great flag.
- [53:40]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Would it not be to a great advantage throughout the United States, blowers were enforced to minimize the wage scale and the maximum wage scale and to minimize the cost of commodity so big monopolies cannot take the advantage by increasing the prices so that they gain the benefit of the math.
- [54:04]
Moderator
Do you understand that question, Mr. Wall?
- [54:06]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Frank, I don't understand the question when he speaks of minimizing the scales and.
- [54:11]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Wages, minimizing the commodity and minimizing labor.
- [54:18]
Mr. Matthew Wall
I don't understand what you mean by minimizing the price and minimizing wages.
- [54:26]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Wages.
- [54:26]
Mr. Matthew Wall
And lowering the standards of the commodity. Would it not be.
- [54:33]
Moderator
I'm afraid that is a very clear question. Mr. Wall. I'm going to ask you another question that's been added in in writing while you're here. Why shouldn't the income tax payments of labor union officials or labor unions be made public like it has done with corporations?
- [54:50]
Mr. Matthew Wall
I do not know that there is any restriction upon the national government of making known the income of labour officials as it is of the officials of industrial enterprises or of any other undertaking. My understanding is that we are in the same category as every other individual with reference to income and that the national government is at liberty to make known, and certainly I see no objection to it.
- [55:20]
Moderator
Now, the young lady in the balcony there. Yes, Mr. Wall. Mr. Wall, what is your attitude toward.
- [55:28]
Mr. Matthew Wall
The fact that the workers might turn from this private enterprise system toward the system where industry is government controlled?
- [55:36]
Moderator
What do you feel about labor turning toward government controlled industry?
- [55:42]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Organized labor is hopeful that that day may be avoided. For if industry is controlled by state, all those engaged by industry will likewise be controlled by state. And that is exactly what we have in Italy, in Germany and in Russia.
- [56:07]
Moderator
Who has a question for Mr. Robey gentleman back there?
- [56:10]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Mr. Roby.
- [56:11]
Moderator
Mr. Robyn.
- [56:19]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Granted that the executive spends most of his hundred thousand dollar income, does not a part of this income go to a host of domestics who are not increasing the national wealth in any respect?
- [56:33]
Moderator
He wants to know a little more about that executive spending his hundred thousand dollars.
- [56:39]
Mr. Ralph Robey
I do not know upon what basis you say that domestic service does not increase our wealth. Does a lawyer increase our wealth? After all, it's a question of giving some kind of service as contrasted with producing corn or automobiles. I should say that they're all a part and very definitely a part of our standard of living. And I think that if you attempted to take the wages away from all of our domestic servants, you find that there are several people that wouldn't like the idea at all.
- [57:14]
Moderator
While you're on your feet, here's another question that's been handed in for you. Are you in favor of strikes, the only weapon that labor has?
- [57:25]
Mr. Ralph Robey
When labor is unable to get any kind of consideration from its employer, when we have an employer who is unwilling to meet labor and talk over their problems, and by talking over their problems, I don't mean give orders to labor, meet them halfway, then I think that labor has no alternative but to strike. But that does not mean that the strike must be used as a monopolistic weapon. Of course I believe in strikes. Everyone who has any sympathy with labor believes in strikes. And I Also believe that the capitalist itself. Capitalist himself has certain rights. And I object to either one of them using those rights to the disadvantage. Inconvenience. Needless inconvenience of the rest of us.
- [58:18]
Moderator
Thank you. Mr. Roby. Next question.
- [58:23]
Mr. Matthew Wall
To who?
- [58:23]
Moderator
Mr. Wall. Mr. Wall.
- [58:25]
Mr. Matthew Wall
May I ask just what it is that you fear in incorporation since the experience is that the corporations are getting.
- [58:32]
Moderator
Away with murder anyhow. So what do you fear about incorporation? Gentlemen? Thinks the corporations are getting away with murder.
- [58:40]
Mr. Matthew Wall
I thought I made that clear. That if trade unions were required to be incorporated as a condition of operating. It would place collective action upon the wage earners. Upon the faces of a license rather than a right and place. In that the conception of freedom of action would be destroyed. And labor is not prepared yet to enslave itself to the state.
- [59:04]
Moderator
Thank you.
- [59:04]
Mr. Matthew Wall
My question from Mr. Man.
- [59:06]
Moderator
Will you back in college. Mr. Roby.
- [59:08]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Mr. Roby fears the dictatorship of labor over capital. I don't know. I believe in Mr. Keroby agrees that capital has a dictatorship over labor today. Now, which is a lesser evil?
- [59:19]
Moderator
Which does he prefer?
- [59:20]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Or how can he make a more equitable distribution of power?
- [59:25]
Moderator
Well, Mr. Said he didn't believe in the dictatorship of either one. Let's take the next question right down here.
- [59:30]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Mr.
- [59:30]
Moderator
Powers.
- [59:31]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Yes.
- [59:31]
Moderator
Mr. Wall. To Mr. Wall. Yes.
- [59:36]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Do you know of an industry where.
- [59:40]
Moderator
Collective bargaining negotiated an agreement where the.
- [59:43]
Mr. Ralph Robey
Employees received an average of over $70.
- [59:46]
Moderator
A week and they went through depression without any decrease in wages?
- [59:51]
Mr. Matthew Wall
And that the union took the out.
- [59:52]
Moderator
Of workmen and captured themselves without government health? Mr. Wall, you get that?
- [59:59]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Yes. I'm very well familiar with the industry in question. And it indicates what unionism means in the particular industry. Referred to those employed cared for the unemployed to the extent of providing for the last five years an income of 20 to 25 dollars a week to every member unemployed. And those working assess themselves as high as $12 a week in order to maintain that. Indicating clearly that unionism tends to maintain standards both for the employer and the worker and share conditions of adversity as well as times of prosperity.
- [60:44]
Moderator
Would not American labor be better off if it were to imitate the former German labor movement by taking in all workers and presenting a common front against.
- [60:55]
Narrator/Announcer
Capital instead of creating potential strike breakers through restricting membership.
- [61:01]
Moderator
Mr. Wall. Would he be better off imitating the German system?
- [61:07]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Apparently the gentleman is not familiar with the German trade union movement as it was founded and operated prior to the Hitler regime. The German labor movement followed exactly the policy and the principles the American Federation of Labor. It Is true that it ventured further into political action. And did, to a degree, have a distinctive labor party. But in its economic work, in its membership, in its form of operation, in its strategy, it was akin and alike to that followed by American organized labor. Hence, the assumption which your question is founded is not true and is invalid.
- [61:56]
Moderator
The lady here, Mr. Wall, you state.
- [61:59]
Mr. Matthew Wall
That the American Federation of Labor does not discriminate. Does not discriminate against any workers according to political views. Well, why were the fur workers expelled from American Federation of labor in 1929?
- [62:13]
Moderator
Why were the fur workers expelled from American Federation of Labor labor in 1929? We have half a minute.
- [62:19]
Mr. Matthew Wall
When the Soviet regime undertook. Well, if you don't want the question answered, say so. When the Soviet regime came into power. One of its first declarations and one of its first undertakings. Was to formulate the Third International. With a specific object of gaining control of the American trade union. And for the purpose of overthrowing the democracy in the United States. And when American labor opposed communism. And communistic leadership in the American labor movement. It believes it supported the principles of democracy.
- [63:06]
Moderator
Thank you.
- [63:09]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Thank you.
- [63:11]
Moderator
Sorry we haven't time to continue this discussion tonight. We must get time to hear from Mr. Havrilla. Because he has a very important announcement to make about the Future programs.
- [63:20]
Narrator/Announcer
Mr. Havrilla, before announcing the program for next week. Let us tell you about another nationwide contest we are conducting in cooperation with a national peace conference. Representing 33 national peace organizations. To bring a representative of the radio audience to this platform on May 14. The meeting at that time will be on the subject peace and party platforms. What peace plank should the political parties include in their platforms. When they are adopted this summer? We will bring the writer of the best letter of not more than 1,000 words on this subject to New York. To participate in this program on May 14th. Letters should be typewritten on one side of the paper. And sent to the League for Political Education, 123 West 43rd Street, New York City, before May 1, 1936. And now, next week at this hour. Our subject will be. Does American Prosperity depend on Foreign Trade? Speakers will be the Honorable James M. Curley, Governor of Massachusetts, and Eugene P. Thomas, president of the National Foreign Trade Council. Copies of tonight's broadcast and all other broadcasts on this series. May be obtained at the nominal cost of $0.10. Write to the League for Political Education, The Town Hall, 123 West 43rd Street, New York City. 103 West 43rd Street, New York City.
- [64:44]
Moderator
Does American prosperity depend on Foreign trade?
- [64:49]
Mr. Matthew Wall
Town meeting next week. Correct.
- [64:53]
Narrator/Announcer
Now, the address. 123 West 43rd Street, New York City. This is the National Broadcasting Company.