America at 250: Staying Hopeful, plus Saying No in a World That Demands Yes

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Preamble

Episode: America at 250: Staying Hopeful, plus Saying No in a World That Demands Yes
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guests: Matt Beat (Mr. Beat), Dr. Sunita Sa
Date: March 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the challenges and hopes as America approaches its 250th anniversary. Sharon McMahon is joined by historian and educator Matt Beat (“Mr. Beat”) to discuss cycles of division, myths about civil war, the reality of coalition-building, and the nature of civic hope. In the second half, McMahon interviews Dr. Sunita Sa, author of The Power of No, about the complexities of defiance and compliance in professional and personal life, how to define one’s true values, and why small acts of principled dissent can shape society.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Reflecting on America at 250: Patterns, Divides, and Hope

(With Matt Beat; 03:22 – 25:47)

The Significance of 250 Years

• Matt Beat opens by asking how Sharon will mark the “semi-sesquicentennial” (250th anniversary) of the United States.
• Sharon shares personal and professional projects, including a children’s book and a new initiative led by former U.S. Archivist Colleen Shogan.

“The word on everybody's lips is semi sesquintennial. No. Well, I do have a children's book coming out to celebrate, and I am taking part in a very interesting project that is sort of the brainchild of the former archivist of the United States, Colleen Shogun.” (Sharon, 03:37)

Is This a New Period of Existential Threat?

• Both recall previous tumultuous times in U.S. history and compare them with current anxieties.
• McMahon stresses that anti-immigrant sentiment and government propaganda are recurring features of American political life.

“This anti-immigrant sentiment is not a new idea in American history, but the current form that it is taking has some novel additions to it.” (Sharon, 05:37)

• Matt Beat highlights cyclical patterns in American xenophobia, citing notable outbreaks every 40 years from the 1840s through the 1920s—then a surprising lull post-civil rights movement.

Could There Be Another Civil War?

• Many ask Sharon about the potential for a second civil war; she argues that geographical and social realities make a repeat of the 1860s logistically implausible.

“It’d be very difficult geographically to fight a civil war. We do not have a way to carve up the country into like north versus South, Union versus Confederacy the way that we did in the 1850s.” (Sharon, 08:10)

• Instead, Sharon sees America in an “ideological cold war”—deep division manifesting within communities, not as state-vs-state conflict.

“We are already experiencing a type of cold war, an ideological cold war, in the United States in which...there's this wholesale sort of ideological writing off of entire groups of people.” (Sharon, 09:18)

• Beat points out parallels with the Irish Troubles (urban/rural divides, rogue actors), not classic civil war.

Recurring Gilded Ages and Populism

• Matt Beat and Sharon compare current social and economic tensions to the late 19th-century Gilded Age (economic inequality, industrial titans) and the Progressive Era (corruption, reform).
• They discuss changing populism: both right and left express anti-elite sentiment, but today’s “outsiders” (like Trump) are often elites themselves.

“Nobody can claim that Donald Trump is not elite...if you own multiple golf resorts, you're not elite.” (Sharon, 14:21)

The Necessity of Coalitions and Hope

• Sharon asserts that all historical legislative advances (Civil Rights Act, 19th Amendment) required coalitions—a fact often ignored in polarized online spaces.

“We as a pluralistic society are never going to be in a position again where one party controls 80% of the seats of power. We are going to have to build coalitions to make things happen because the alternative is endless quagmire.” (Sharon, 18:29)

• She distinguishes between optimism (“things are going great”) and hope (“a choice to act as though what we do matters”).

“Optimism is this feeling that, like, hey, I really think things are going great...Hope is not that. Hope is a choice to act as though what we do matters.” (Sharon, 20:29)

• Emphasizes local action over paralysis due to national overwhelm.

“The system is actually designed to overwhelm you into paralysis...the way to get out of this feeling of overwhelm is to just pick one thing to work on and just work on that one thing.” (Sharon, 22:21)

The Power of Everyday Civic Action

• Beat shares his own daily commitment to writing to his Congress member about representation reform.

“Every day have been writing my congressman. I write a letter every single day...I'm going to do it until I. I'm just going to keep doing it.” (Matt, 23:31)

• Both remain committed to “betting on the American people” rather than relying solely on leaders.

“If I'm going to bet on something, it would be the American people...I believe that the American spirit is alive and well.” (Sharon, 24:44)

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2. The Power of Defiance: Saying No in a World That Demands Yes

(With Dr. Sunita Sa; 30:25 – 49:28)

Redefining Defiance and Compliance

• Dr. Sa reflects on her journey from compliant child to researcher, noting that compliance is often equated with “goodness.”
• Defiance, she argues, should be reframed:

“To defy is to act in accordance with your own true values when there is pressure to do otherwise.” (Dr. Sa, 31:55)

Why Is It So Hard to Defy?

• The danger of over-compliance: Both surveys and tragic news (e.g., George Floyd case) show that failing to speak up—even when right—can have devastating consequences.
• Sharon asks how we can distinguish principled defiance from mere contrariness or ego-based reaction.

“How will we distinguish between our acting in accordance with our values and just being a no at another person trying to boss us around?” (Sharon, 32:38)

• Sa clarifies: true defiance is internally motivated by values, not just reflexive opposition, which is really another form of dependence.
• Recommends explicitly identifying and writing down your core values as a tool for self-alignment and ethical action.

The Psychology of Compliance

• Socialization plays a big role; most people are wired to comply.
• Introduces concept of “insinuation anxiety”—the fear that saying no will be taken as a personal insult or mistrust.

“Insinuation anxiety...arises when we worry that our non-compliance with another person's wishes is going to be interpreted as a signal of distrust.” (Dr. Sa, 37:35)

• This anxiety impacts all sorts of professional and social interactions, from the hospital to the cockpit.

Gender and Defiance

• Sharon inquires about gender dynamics—are women taught to comply more?

“Are women more socialized to be compliant? Is that a higher value you find in parents who are socializing their little girls?” (Sharon, 42:59)

• Sa confirms: social expectations and experiments show women face more insinuation anxiety and harsher consequences for noncompliance.

Building the Skill of Defiance

• Many self-identified people-pleasers are paralyzed by the thought of saying no.
• Sa presents techniques to practice: anticipate likely moments for defiance, script responses, role-play, and repeat until comfortable.

“Defiance isn’t a personality. It's a practice. It's a skill set that we can choose to implement or not.” (Dr. Sa, 46:12)

• Even professional training often fails here (e.g., police told to speak up but not trained how).

Defiance in Daily Life: Small Moments Matter

• Sa argues change depends not on grand heroics but daily acts: Rosa Parks’ “no” was preceded by many smaller yeses.

“All we need is that one moment to say no, to practice for that, and that changes everything around us. It changes the water in which everybody else is swimming.” (Dr. Sa, 48:32)

• Compliance is not destiny; the ripple effect of principled defiance can build a more authentic, moral society.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On History Repeating Itself

• “We're also going through a period of anti-immigrant sentiment in the United States. And this is a repeating pattern in the United States.” (Sharon, 05:37)

On the Limits of Civil War Analogies

• “The logistics of civil war are not at all clear to me anymore...What you have are regions of nearly every state that believe different things.” (Sharon, 08:10)

On Ideological Cold War

• “We are already experiencing a type of cold war, an ideological cold war, in the United States...” (Sharon, 09:18)

On Hope vs. Optimism

• “Hope is a choice to act as though what we do matters, because what we do does matter...” (Sharon, 20:29)

On Practicing Defiance

• “Defiance isn’t a personality. It's a practice. It's a skill set that we can choose to implement or not.” (Dr. Sa, 46:12)

On Compliance Not Being Destiny

• “Compliance might have been your default, but it's not your destiny. So you can practice for defiance.” (Dr. Sa, 47:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:22 | Beginning of conversation with Matt Beat
• 05:37 | Patterns of anti-immigrant sentiment and government propaganda
• 08:10 | Civil war analogy and why geography and social structure make it unlikely
• 09:18 | “Ideological cold war” in America
• 14:21 | Paradox of elite ‘populists’
• 17:37 | The necessity of coalition-building
• 20:29 | Distinguishing hope from optimism
• 22:21 | Local action against overwhelm
• 23:31 | Matt Beat’s daily act of civic engagement
• 24:44 | “Betting on the American people”
• 30:25 | Interview with Dr. Sunita Sa begins
• 31:55 | Redefining defiance: acting by one’s true values under pressure
• 37:35 | Insinuation anxiety explained
• 42:59 | Gender, compliance, and socialization
• 46:12 | Defiance as a practiced skill
• 47:44 | Final thoughts on transforming society through everyday defiance

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced reflection on American democracy as it celebrates 250 years—examining cycles of division, the enduring need for hope and coalition-building, and the power of small, deliberate acts of defiance. Whether navigating civic chaos or learning to say “no” when it matters, the message is clear: history is shaped by the choices and courage of ordinary people.

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Recommended Action:
Check out Dr. Sunita Sa’s The Power of No and visit The Preamble’s newsletter for continued, hope-filled discourse.

Transcript

[Sharon McMahon]

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[Matt Beat]

I reached out to you again because this is the big year. 250 years. I mean, first of all, are you going to do anything or you have any plans yet for the 250th anniversary?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, the semi sesquintennial.

[Matt Beat]

I'm glad you said it, because I can't say that word.

[Sharon McMahon]

The word on everybody's lips is semi sesquintennial. No. Well, I do have a children's book coming out to celebrate, and I am taking part in a really interesting project that is sort of the brainchild of the former archivist of the United States, Colleen Shogun.

[Matt Beat]

I'm actually going to have the opportunity to interview her when she's coming to the Dole Institute.

[Sharon McMahon]

Oh, great. She's great. Colleen Shogun's great. Yes.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah, it's a very just. It seems like it's a tumultuous time. And I know there's a lot of doomers that watch my channel that just like, how can we even think about the 250th when it seems like, you know, we have all these existential threats to the Republic? I mean, I think that's kind of why we need to reflect, because it's not like it's always been smooth sailing in the United States of America.

[Sharon McMahon]

There hasn't been.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah.

[Matt Beat]

When you look at the past moments of deep division in American history, what patterns do you see repeating today?

[Sharon McMahon]

One of them is the government's use of propaganda techniques. And these are not specific to the United States. Other governments, other countries have used similar tactics. I have found the current recruitment advertisements from various government agencies very interesting. Have you been following these on Facebook at all?

[Matt Beat]

I sometimes get the ads, yeah. For, like, ice to join ice. Like me.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah. Join ice. Protect the homeland. And they are very patriotic paintings from the past that are very sentimental, nostalgic. Protect the American way of life. And it's like a Norman Rockwell painting of a family, you know, having a picnic by the river and there's like a church in the background, and they're driving like a 1950s Chevrolet car. I think that's a really interesting concept of protect the homeland that we have seen repeated throughout history. We're also going through a period of anti immigrant sentiment in the United States. And this is a repeating pattern in the United States. We've targeted different groups of immigrants throughout our history. This anti immigrant sentiment is not a, a new idea in American history, but the current form that it is taking has some novel additions to it. So those are just two, like right off the top of my head, but I could keep going. I'd love to hear what some of yours are.

[Matt Beat]

I notice when I look at American history, There's like a 40 year cycle, almost like because United States has always had lots of immigrants. The first big anti immigrants xenophobic movement we saw pretty much like in the 1840s is a backlash to mostly Irish immigrants, which is crazy to think about. And then flash forward 40 years to like the 1880s, and that's when you have stuff like the Chinese Exclusion Act. Flash forward again to the 1920s, and this is the first time we have really strict immigration legislation by Congress. You know, the first red scare. But then 40 years later is the 1960s, which it seems like it was going to happen, but then the Civil rights movement just kind of slammed the door on it. And so I feel like it's been a long time since we've seen this kind of xenophobia.

[Sharon McMahon]

And it's interesting to me too, that modern conservatism, like the type that Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were proponents of, was largely pro immigrants. They made a lot of very pro immigrant speeches. Ronald Reagan made a very famous speech at the Statue of Liberty. So I think this is also an interesting pendulum swing where since the early, you know, 1980s, conservatives have been proponents of welcoming immigrants into the sort of the American way. They want to come here for a better life, and that's to be admired. They were often admired for their work ethic. They were admired for wanting to seek out a better life for their family. And we had all kinds of government messaging to sort of welcome immigrants from both ends of the spectrum. And I do think that has changed now. This is a novel moment.

[Matt Beat]

I mean, there's a lot of people that bring up the 1850s. Understandably, they bring up that Civil War. I mean, can you even imagine a second Civil War? But I mean, more and more people are bringing this up. So how would you Compare specifically the 2000s to the 1850s?

[Sharon McMahon]

People ask me about Civil War all The time. Are we on the brink of another civil war? And one of the things that I usually say is that the United States is now. It'd be very difficult geographically to fight a civil war. We do not have a way to carve up the country into like north versus South, Union versus Confederacy the way that we did in the 1850s, where these are the slave states, these are the free states. We don't have those sort of neat markers anymore. And what you have are regions of nearly every state that believe different things. California is a great example. We think of California as being this very liberal place, but there are actually millions and millions of Republicans right leaning people in California.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

So is it just now Orange county fighting Los Angeles County? How are we doing that? Do you know what I mean? So the logistics of civil war are not at all clear to me anymore. I do, however, think we are already experiencing a type of cold war, an ideological cold war in the United States in which, if you think back to the Cold War against the Soviet Union, against, you know, this battle between sort of free market capitalism versus the godless commies as we viewed, you know, communist nations during the Cold War, that was very much an ideological battle. We disagreed with who they were fundamentally. It didn't matter if they had any good ideas because who they were was corrupt to us. And there's this wholesale sort of ideological writing off of entire groups of people that I view as a type of cold war in the United States. But I don't see how the logistics for a fighting war work.

[Matt Beat]

You know, like, wars are often started by the extremists. And so it may not matter that we have so many moderates in this country that we have 60% of us that are actually agree on nearly everything. Actually. I think that the ones who are really desperate could like start stuff whether we like it or not. But like you said, to your point though, there's no way it would be like states versus states. It would be, I think, more urban versus rural. I've had people comment underneath my videos. Anytime I mention civil war, they always say, oh, it'd be more like the troubles in Ireland.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah.

[Matt Beat]

Like, because you'd have, you know, you'd have ambushes and terrorist attacks. Probably. Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Rogue actors as opposed to state actors.

[Matt Beat]

Yep.

[Sharon McMahon]

For the Civil War, it's all state actors. The government of X fighting the government of Y or the alleged government Y, depending on your viewpoint. So we don't have state actors. But I certainly will grant that we could be in the position of having a significant amount of civil unrest.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Is different than a wholesale civil war like we see in some other countries that are happening right now.

[Matt Beat]

I've been thinking a lot about the 1890s. I have this book by H.W. brands, the Reckless Decades about the 1890s. And I was like, holy crap, the 2020s are the 1890s. Do the 2020s feel like late Gilded age, early Progressive Era more or do they feel more like Reconstruction?

[Sharon McMahon]

That's what my mind went to as well. And also the trends in the titans of industry. You can see the correlation between these sort of robber barons of the Gilded Age and the AI tech boom and a small handful of people who are controlling vast quantities of countries resources. I do think there's a correlation there as well. There were huge issues with Also in the 1890s, huge issues with government corruption. And that's of course one of the things that Teddy Roosevelt became famous for was he was like, listen, I am going to clean this up. We are going to have a merit based civil service. We are not going to just give jobs to our buddies, imperfect as Teddy Roosevelt was. Because all presidents have their foibles for sure. That was one of the things that Teddy Roosevelt became famous for before he ever was elected president. So yes, the Progressive era was a, a swing of the pendulum away from this like cronyism, government corruption, robber barons, extraordinary economic growth into new areas. I can definitely see some overlap. And then also, as you're saying about populism, the populism at the time in the 1890s in some ways was an answer to the cronyism of the late Gilded Age of like, hold on, we shouldn't have nine people controlling everything in the country. So that is one way that I see it as being slightly different is the right wing populism of this moment feels different than the Progressive Era populism.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah. I mean, at least rhetorically though, there are similarities. Whenever you hear someone who leans to the right, like they first were attracted to Trump because he was the outsider who was going to drain the swamp and obviously things didn't work out that way, but they still view him as somebody who's an outsider just because he has that reputation of just doing things completely opposite of the traditional way of doing things. And so I think some of them do want to see the whole system burned down. But there's also an element on the left wing side of that as well. You have a lot of people that like, especially those who supported Bernie Sanders in 2016 and then 2020 to see that, you know, the Democratic Party establishment just completely shut them out. And yeah, like as we saw in 2024, a lot of those folks just abandoned the Democratic Party and that's why this whole horseshoe theory thing comes up. But I have my own issues with that. But I think mostly when we talk about populism, we're just talking about rhetoric against the elites, the establishment status quo.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, it is interesting. And populism in today's moment is fascinating because by and large, the leaders of America's right wing populist movement today are actually elite.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah, right. They co opted it. Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

Nobody can claim that Donald Trump is not elite. He went to elite schools. He's a billionaire. He owns a billion trillion properties and golf courses. You can't tell me that if you own multiple golf resorts, you're not elite.

[Matt Beat]

Right.

[Sharon McMahon]

He is elite. More of my interview with Mr. Beat when we come back. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. This month as we celebrate women, I'm reflecting on the women who have shaped me. One friend in particular inspires me with how she balances motherhood, partnership and career goals while still being the emotional anchor for so many people. But being strong doesn't mean carrying everything alone. Therapy can be a place to process stress, celebrate growth, and prioritize your own needs. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. You complete a short questionnaire and with more than 30,000 therapists and over 12 years of experience, they'll match you to someone who fits your needs, usually right away. And if you need a different fit, you can switch anytime. They've served more than 6 million people worldwide and have a 4.9 out of 5 session rating from over 1.7 million reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel less lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Sharon that's betterhelp.com Sharon have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life? Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming you. People think okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming youg wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know about you, but every year I get that new Year, new me energy and then life gets busy. This year, what's actually stuck for me is building a small learning routine. With Masterclass, I'll put on a lesson in audio mode during my morning walk and suddenly I've done something for myself before the day even starts. One class that really changed things for me was from renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel on strengthening personal and professional relationships. I've used her insights to communicate more clearly and actually listen better at work and at home. I use this and you should too. It's practical, but it also gives you that confidence boost of feeling more emotionally aware and grounded. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month, billed annually, and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes across 13 categories. You can watch on your phone, laptop or TV and even download lessons for offline viewing. Plus there's a 30 day money back guarantee, so there's no risk. Right now our listeners get an additional 15 off any annual membership. [e-mail] Sharon that's 15% [e-mail] Sharon masterclass.com Sharon more now of my interview with Mr. Beat.

[Matt Beat]

We've been talking a lot about our division and the chaos, but do you have optimism about this upcoming 250th birthday? Possibly like forcing everyone to kind of just like hit the pause button. Every American is just like, wait a second, why do I love my country? And then maybe realizing, oh, maybe we should try to form some more coalitions with different people that I don't normally align with.

[Sharon McMahon]

Well, the first thing is you bring up a really interesting point that I think so many people have forgotten about, especially online leftists. The idea that nearly any important thing that has happened legislatively in this country is Civil Rights act, the Voting Rights act, the 19th Amendment, etc, have all happened as a result of coalition and consensus building.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah.

[Sharon McMahon]

That we as a pluralistic society are never going to be in a position again where one party controls 80% of the seats of power. We are going to have to build coalitions to make things happen because the alternative is is endless quagmire. It is an endless cycle of doing nothing and infighting and not serving the American public. And so when we have created these purity tests of I will not work with a person who believes X, even if what they want to work on is something that you actually really believe in. Even if what they want to work on is preschool lunches for kids, if they also believe X, how I Can't talk to them. And that is actually not how pluralistic representative democracies have gotten things done in the past. So I think that's an important point, that if we want to move the needle on behalf of American people, we have to be willing to align ourselves, not necessarily morally. We don't have to invite them for a sleepover. We don't have to say any of those things. But we do have to be willing to. To create coalitions that might actually make us hold our nose a little bit. You know, there's this old phrase in deal making that if both of you aren't a little mad at the end of the day that it's not a good deal, like you both have to be willing to give up a little of something that you want. And if it means just like moving the ball just a little farther down the field, if it means helping 3,000 more kids get school lunches, those kinds of things are worth it. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, do I have optimism that Americans are going to come together on America's sort of 250th anniversary? I don't have optimism, but what I do have is hope. And those are two different things.

[Matt Beat]

Yes, they are.

[Sharon McMahon]

Optimism is this feeling that, like, hey, I really think things are going great. Skies are blue and the birds are chirping. And, you know, like, I feel like my chances are good. I got a good shot at it. Hope is not that. Hope is a choice to act as though what we do matters, because what we do does matter, and what we do makes a difference. And so we have to decide what kind of difference we want to make. And so I don't have optimism that we're going to have some kind of hair braiding sleepover event because of the 250th anniversary. You go to a lot of hair braiding sleepovers. So many. But I do have hope that Americans have succeeded at nearly everything they have put their minds to. And so if we choose to act as though what we do matters, we do have the opportunity to succeed. If we're looking around for somebody to save us, we are just going to keep on waiting. And instead, we have to realize that we are the people we've been waiting for and that each and every one of us has an important role to play in this entire ecosystem. That it is not up to a single leader or even five leaders or 25 leaders. It's going to require effort on all of our parts, because democracy is a government of the people. Downward, it is meant to be. And who are the people if not us? I love to remind people that your civic action is not just working on the government, it's working in your communities. And we all have a different role to play.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah. If you focus on your neighborhood, then maybe you won't get overwhelmed because it can be so overwhelming. Looking at all of all the zeitgeist.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, that's right. The system is actually designed to overwhelm you into paralysis. People who seek to grab power, people who seek to seize and consolidate their own power intend to overwhelm you so that you will feel completely frozen. Fight or flight will be, you know, activated. If you're familiar with the work of Tim Snyder, who's a political scientist, he's written a book called On Tyranny, another one called On Freedom. He talks about this too, that anybody who is feeling overwhelmed by the amount of things that they are supposed to be like, paying attention to, first of all, understanding that that's part of the intent, they're intending to try to make you feel overwhelmed. First of all, that's normal. But the second way to get out of this feeling of overwhelm is to just pick one thing to work on and just work on that one thing that none of us are able to just like, fix it. Pick one thing and work on it and refuse to listen to the voices that tell you that you have to do everything. That's a great way to do nothing. Trying to do everything is a great way to do nothing.

[Matt Beat]

So this is something I decided I was going to do as a New Year's resolution. But I every day have been writing my congressman. I write a letter every single day. And the issue that I'm most passionate about is representation reform. I think that it's a national tragedy that we've had only 435 representatives in the House more or less since 1929. So in almost 100 years, despite the population quadrupling in that same span. And so I've been doing this every day now. This is my 20th day of doing it. I'm going to do it until I. I'm just going to keep doing it. I don't need. There's no end date to this.

[Sharon McMahon]

I've brought this up multiple times that, like, if you live in Alaska, you're getting way more representation in Congress than if you live in a really big state.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah, I think that the next 10 years are going to be. I've been telling a lot of people this. They're going to be turbulent and chaotic compared to the previous few decades. That doesn't mean it's going to be World War iii. That doesn't mean it's going to be Civil War. So perhaps your final thoughts on how you're feeling as we approach the 250th birthday. The direction of the country obviously is alarming, but how do you think it's going to turn out, like, in a few years, 10 years? What's your prediction?

[Sharon McMahon]

Gosh, I don't have any good prognostications about, like, well, in 10 years we're all going to be driving flying cars. I don't have any good predictions that nature, but I feel that if I'm going to bet on something, it would be the American people. I'm going to bet on something. I believe that the American spirit is alive and well. And despite many pieces of evidence to the contrary, I really do believe in my fellow Americans to be able to rise to a moment when their moment arrives. And I do feel like this is our moment. It's time for us to rise to our moment.

[Matt Beat]

Yeah, I see a lot of people already doing that, and that's what continues to inspire me. And I always bring up the end of the Cold War, like, oh, is this the end of history like some historians said? No, man, it's like this is a whole new chapter. So.

[Sharon McMahon]

And we are not the first people to live through difficult times. Other people with far fewer resources and way less education have lived through very difficult times. And if they can do it, so can we.

[Matt Beat]

Hey, you got. Yeah, you got some good takes here. We'll end it right there. That's perfect. Sharon McMahon, thank you for joining me for this. It's such an honor to interview you and talk with you anytime.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you so much for inviting me. Check out Mr. Beat on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, the Power of Defiance. I speak with Dr. Sunita SA about why pushing back is necessary in a world that tells us we should all comply. There's something satisfying about a bedroom that feels put together but still leaves room for real life. Not overly designed, not temporary, just thoughtful and functional. That's exactly where cozy comes in. Cozy's job is to make living easy. And cozy furniture makes your whole home feel uniquely you. Spaces like the bedroom should feel personal, calm and adaptable. Life isn't one size fits all, and your home shouldn't be either. From sofas and shelves to rugs, tables, dining sets, and their brand new bedroom collection, Cozy designs furniture that fits the way people actually live. Everything is modular and designed to fit your space and taste and life. Functional details like hidden storage to tuck away clutter, washable fabrics that forgive everyday messes, and modular pieces that can shift as needs change. Mean Cozy isn't just about looking good, it's about feeling good too. Cozy is practical by design and personalized by you. Furniture shopping is made simple with free design consultants who help customers get the most out of their space. Easy to order, easy to ship, easy to put together and easy to maintain. Easy Cozy proves that choice doesn't have to be a luxury. Personalize your living space today with cozy. Visit C o z e y.com the home of possibilities made Easy hi there, it's Sharon. As a listener of the preamble, you likely value thoughtful, nuanced discussions about politics, civic duty and our future. Which is why I highly recommend the Signal Award winning podcast no Small Endeavor. Hosted by my friend Lee C. Camp, no Small Endeavor explores what it means to live a good life through conversations about faith, culture, ideas and the habits that help people flourish. Each episode, host and award winning theologian Lee C. Camp sits down with courageous and impassioned people like Pulitzer finalist historian Garrett Graff and New York Times bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell about what it means to flourish in our day to day lives. Not sure where to start? Check out my conversation with Lee where we talk about the transformative power of education, the need for informing, informed civic participation, and the hopeful possibilities that emerge when we approach politics not as partisan warriors, but as compassionate, curious learners. Follow no Small Endeavor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Listen up. Magnesium Breakthrough by Bioptimizers has been getting a lot of buzz lately. Most magnesium supplements only use one or two forms, but Magnesium Breakthrough combines seven different forms of magnesium along with key cofactors that help your body actually absorb and use it. That means your body can get more of the benefits magnesium has to offer. People are noticing benefits like deeper, more restful sleep, feeling calmer, better workout recovery and even improved digestion. It's designed to support your body in multiple ways without any promises about treating or curing specific conditions. Just helping you feel your best. Here's the challenge. Try it. Track your sleep. Pay attention to how you feel. See if you wake up more refreshed with a 365 day, no questions asked money back guarantee. There's truly zero risk. You have a full year. To see if it works for you, go to buyoptimizers.com Sharon and use my code Sharon to get 15% off any order. Make 2026, the year you finally start seeing Sleeping Great again. I'm joined now by Cornell Professor Dr. Sunita Sa to talk about her book, the Power of no. In a World that Demands. Yes, your book is about defiance in a world that demands compliance. And we think of somebody who's defiant as being disagreeable, insubordinate, you know, something you'd get written up for at a job or in the military. But you actually begin your book by proposing a new definition of what it means to defy. And I would love to hear you start by talking about, what do you mean when we're talking about being defiant?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I've been fascinated by what that single powerful word defy, means, definitely, for such a long time, because I grew up pretty compliant. I was known for being an obedient daughter and a student. And I remember asking my dad when I was quite young, what does my name mean? And he said, in Sanskrit, sunita means good. And mostly I did. I lived up to that. And the messages I received about being good was to fit in, to obey, to be compliant. Don't question authority, don't make a scene. And we often teach children these messages. And what's interesting here is that we end up equating being compliant with being good and defiant with being bad. And as you said, being defiant, it's not a nice label to have for a lot of people. We think it has this negative connotation to it. But I got really fascinated by looking at compliance, wondering why I struggled with it so much and how other people had an easier time being defiant. And when I delved in further, I saw that this amount of compliance can cause serious problems. So, for example, one survey found that nine out of 10 healthcare workers, most of them nurses, don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see their colleague or a physician making an error. And that's also true in other professions. So in a survey of over 1700 crew members on commercial airlines, about half of them felt uncomfortable speaking up. So I started to wonder, is it sometimes bad to be so good? What do we sacrifice by always trying to be so compliant? And, you know, if I was to ask you, Sharon, how many times have you wanted to object with something or disagree or opt out, but you just end up swallowing your words and shaking your heads and going along with it. And my definition of defiance is that to defy is to act in accordance with. With your own true values when there is pressure to do otherwise. Because if you think about it, all our individual actions of consent and dissent and compliance. They create the society that we live in. So it affects our lives, our communities, our workplaces.

[Sharon McMahon]

How do I even know what my true values are, right? Like, how do I know if I'm acting in accordance with my true values or if I just find that person annoying and I don't want to do what they say? I know that I bristle at what I view as illegitimate authority. You know, like that is my knee jerk reaction. Who are you to try to tell me that I can't do that thing? And some of us perhaps have habituated behaviors that require compliance more than others. But how will we distinguish between our acting in accordance with our values and just being a no at another person trying to boss us around?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I love this distinction, and it's actually a very important one. If we are doing something because somebody is telling us to do it, and then we do the exact opposite. The way that, for example, my son, when he is playing his computer game and I ask him if he's going to do his homework and he says to me, well, I was going to do it, but now that you've told me, I'm not going to do it right? So maybe he finds me incredibly annoying, but in this situation, he's actually listening really intently to what I want and he is doing the exact opposite of that. So his actions are not driven from within. If we think about what true consent is, what true defiance is, it's something that's coming from within you based on your values. But if it's based on what somebody else wants or doesn't want, whether we comply with it or we react against it, that's now being dependent on someone else. So in a way, it's a different form of compliance. It might appear defiant to some people, but it's what I call false defiance because it's acting on an external expectation. So how can we figure out what our true values are? That was your other question. And I have my executive students do an exercise where I get them to think about their true values and write them down. And the reason I do this is because if we become really clear about what our values are, then we actually are more likely to live in accordance with them. That's what the research shows. So that's really important to do. And when it comes to those values and why your values are important, a lot of my students, when they drill down to it, their values often end up being just simple single words. But they're very powerful if we can enact them every day. So words such as integrity, Benevolence compassion, equality. These are the values I see time and time again. And yet it's really difficult to act in accordance with those values. We might like to think that we do, but what I've learned, and what my research has shown me again and again, is what somebody believes their values to be is quite different from how they actually behave when they're in a situation. And so really being clear on your values and then learning with defiance and how we can close that gap between our intention and our action is crucial.

[Sharon McMahon]

You talk in the book about a scenario that is very famous in the United States now involving George Floyd and about the two police officers who were brand new on the job, who complied with the orders of Derek Chauvin to go along with what they did to George Floyd. They just went along with it? They obeyed?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And as a student of history, I can think of dozens of examples of people throughout history who just complied. And historians will also tell you that this is how authoritarians come to power, is people pre comply, assuming that their defiance will be unsuccessful, they pre comply with the orders of whatever it is. So you pose this very interesting question, which is how would I have reacted in that scenario if I were a brand new cop on the scene with George Floyd? How would I have reacted? I'd like to think of myself as a person who would not have complied. So many people throughout history have wondered, how would I have acted if I was living in 1930s Germany? I would not have gone along with the Nazis. 100% of the people listening to this at least want to believe themselves to be the kind of person who would not have complied with the Nazis. Right, right. But you just mentioned, and you mentioned this in the book too, that there is a very large disconnect between who we believe ourselves to be and who we actually are in terms of the actions that we carry out. Why is that? What is it that makes us comply with things we know are not? Right?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah, so this goes back to how we were socialized. So if you had a masterclass in compliance like I did, you end up being wired to comply. It does become our default, and it makes it so difficult to actually defy in the situation. And there's numerous reasons for this. So let me just talk about one of them with the scenario and examples that you just gave. And that's there's just enormous pressure to go along with what other people want. And in that situation, for the rookie officers, even though one of them was a black rookie, like three or four days into the job and he had joined the police force with the best of intentions, you could even say with the right values. He wanted to make change from the inside and be a bridge for people like him, people like George Floyd. And yet when it came down to it, there's so much pressure to go along with what other people want. And that pressure really has a huge effect on us. And it could be in small stake situations where we don't say anything to these larger situations that are unfolding in front of us and we feel powerless to almost do anything about. In my research I've discovered a psychological concept that I call insinuation anxiety. And this is a distinct type of anxiety that arises when we worry that our non compliance with another person's wishes is going to be interpreted as a signal of distrust. So if you think about it, if your boss is in that situation, or even if you're with family and friends, having a discussion, saying no to something, or objecting to something, or saying that a particular statement is inappropriate really could signal distrust. It sort of implies that the other person could be corrupt, unethical, incompetent. And we have this anxiety about signaling that it really is an aversive emotional state where we become concerned with offending the other person. And I found that yes, it exists in these power dynamics like a rookie police officer where their training officer with an employee and their boss, the manager. But it also happens in one off situations with strangers when they aren't large consequences. And we just don't want to insinuate that somebody else cannot be trusted. That's very difficult for us to do.

[Sharon McMahon]

What happens to us mentally when we believe that we are causing this sort of rift between us and this other person? I can't trust you. I'm not going to do what you say. What is it that is happening in our mind that makes it so difficult for us to be willing to step out and do that?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

There's two ideal selves. So we have this ideal independent self where we want to act on our own agency and do what we think is right. But we also have this ideal interdependent self where we're concerned about harmonious relationships and we have to live in society with other people. And these are kind of ideals. So they're always going to be in some kind of tension. We can't reach either ideal and probably we wouldn't want to. So that creates some kind of tension between what you want to do, what you think is right, versus what somebody else is expecting of us. That tension is stage one of defiance and it's a really important stage because we all feel tension in different ways. And we can really think about, what is it? How does that tension manifest in my body? And noting that tension, not disregarding it or thinking it's not worth our doubt, the other person must know better, is really critical because only when you acknowledge it, which is the stage two of defiance, can you work up through the other stages of defiance.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, you mentioned a time when you felt pressured into a medical test you didn't think that you needed. And as a physician, you're like, I don't have the right symptoms. I don't have the thing that you think I have. But you didn't want to offend your colleagues in medicine by appearing to doubt their judgment, by being like, listen, guys, you just straight up wrong.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Sharon McMahon]

And that sense of like, I don't want to offend you by doubting your judgment, so I'm gonna go along with something that I don't think is right. Is that what we're talking about here?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

That's exactly right. So this insinuation anxiety could also explain why the nurses don't speak up when they see something wrong, or why the co pilots don't tell their pilots that something is wrong, something that could risk their own life. Like, when I had that medical procedure that I knew I didn't need, it was very hard for me to tell the other doctor that, no, you're wrong. I don't have that. I don't think it's necessary to have that. So it really does become a powerful force in. Even when we have the full knowledge and understanding that this is incorrect, this is not the best way forward. It's very hard to not go along with it in those circumstances. Unless you know, oh, this is insinuation anxiety. We can name it unless we start practicing for these situations. And as I say, defiance is a skill, and it's something that we can practice for. Even if you grew up being as compliant as I am, you can learn how to be defiant.

[Sharon McMahon]

Do you think, because you mentioned before, that so much of our compliant behavior is a result of socialization? Are women more socialized to be compliant? Is that a higher value you find in parents who are socializing their little girls even subconsciously to, like, be a good girl? And what makes you a good girl is if you listen to mommy and daddy, you be a good girl. You know, like, even parents who are very well intentioned, they feel like they're being judged by how compliant their children are.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Absolutely. We do. Like, in a Way we want our children to be compliant. And I remember a situation when my son was quite young, I think about 4 years old, and we were in London at the time, and I really wanted to see the Olympic torch. So it was the 2012 Olympics, and he wouldn't comply. He would not walk along the street to come and see the torch. And I remember thinking, why can't you be good? And then I was fascinated. I'm making the same moral equation that compliance equals good and defiance equals bad. And we often give our children these messages, possibly more to girls. There is a defiance hierarchy in terms of who we expect to be compliant and the consequences if those people are not compliant. So girls are often expected to comply more than men. In my experiments, often I see both men and women comply and they find it difficult. But there are certain situations. There's one particular study that I did where it was a middle aged white man given advice, and it was the women that felt insinuation anxiety and complied with bad advice. The men were okay in that situation to reject it. So sometimes women do feel more insinuation anxiety or the people that are more vulnerable, that have less status in society, often feel more vulnerable to having to comply.

[Sharon McMahon]

I know there are going to be people listening to this who are going to be like, I am a people pleaser and it gives me hives to think about letting anybody down. And the idea of saying no, even if I believe it is aligned with my own values, the idea of saying no, of defying something, I just cannot abide that thought. It's too much for me. You know, whatever it is, they don't feel like any situation of defiance is safe. What would you say to those people?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

I would say I was in their shoes at one point. And I totally understand that. It is very difficult. And what makes it easier is if you think about the situations that you've complied. So even when I took the medical procedure that I didn't need, I started thinking about it. Why didn't I speak up? It would have been safe and effective for me to speak up in that situation. Yes, I didn't want to make a scene. I didn't want to be seen as the difficult patient. I didn't want to tell the doctor that she didn't know what she was doing and that she was wrong. All of those things were there. But yes, it still would have been safe and effective for me to say, no, I don't want this. And so how can we do that? So in terms of practice, there's a number of Steps. First of all, we need to anticipate, because often we can anticipate the most common situations that will arise because we've faced them before, and many of them are predictable. And then you can start practicing by scripting and role playing what you're going to say. And this is really important to do this and repeat this, because if we have been wired to comply, we need to change those neural pathways. We need to get our mouths used to saying defiant words and our ears used to hearing defiant words. Because defiance isn't a personality. It's a practice. It's a skill set that we can choose to implement or not. So even in the police academy, if we go back to that example, police officers are told intellectually that if you see somebody doing something wrong, you must question your superior or another police officer. But they're never given any behavioral training in how to do that. And unless you have that training, role playing and scripting and doing that, you're not going to be able to do it in a moment of crisis. And that's why the training aspect is really important. To make defiance a practice, you need a plan that starts long before the moment of crisis.

[Sharon McMahon]

What do you hope that somebody reminds me members when they close the last page of this book? What is it that you hope they will take with them and sort of tuck into their pocket and carry with them moving forward?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

A few things. One is compliance might have been your default, but it's not your destiny. So you can practice for defiance. And society is actually built on these smaller moments. You know, when we think about defiance, we might think about big acts of defiance that are dramatic, like Rosa Parks saying no on the bus. But in reality, her no on that bus preceded a lot of yeses on the bus. So if we think about these smaller moments, ideally, we're building a society where people will speak up and say no when it really matters. And defiance doesn't only transform you in making you more your authentic self, and it is very powerful, but it also changes the people around you. So it does have a ripple effect, this defiance domino effect, even when nobody's present. So the second time I was able to say no to a medical procedure, I didn't think was the right one. Nobody was really there to observe that interaction between me and the doctor, But I did tell other people about it, and they encouraged me to write an article which eventually got published, and that had a big ripple effect. But all we need is, like, that one moment to say no, to practice for that, and that changes everything around us. It changes the water in which everybody else is swimming, and it develops our neural pathways, so it makes it a little bit easier next time. So my hope is this book is going to make Defiance accessible to everyone so we can all become moral mavericks

[Sharon McMahon]

and live in accordance with the values we have written down.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thanks to Dr. Sunita Sa for joining us. You can get her book [e-mail] or wherever you get your books. Be sure to read our [e-mail] it's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. Thanks for listening. Sometimes you just want a good story. On TikTok, you'll find short dramas emotional, fast, and impossible to stop watching. Download TikTok now.