← The Preamble
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As your business grows, everything lives in one clean view calls, texts, voicemails, transcripts and contacts so your whole team has full context and can respond faster. And Quo's built in AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries, and highlights next steps so nothing falls through the cracks. Make this the month where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com Sharon that's Q-U O.com Sharon Quo no missed calls. No missed customers A year ago, President Trump signed an executive order asserting that America's schools are to provide children with an education that instills, quote, a patriotic admiration for our incredible nation and the values for which we stand. The order says it is, quote, discriminatory equity ideology to teach children that the United States is fundamentally racist, sexist or otherwise discriminatory and that children should be Receiving a patriotic education. That is great. Quote. An accurate, honest, unifying, inspiring and ennobling characterization of America's founding and foundational principles. A clear examination of how the United States has admirably grown closer to its noble principles throughout its history. The concept that commitment to America's aspirations is beneficial and justified. And the concept that celebration of America's greatness and history is proper. I spent three years researching and writing a book about unsung Americans who changed the course of history. I believe deeply in the promise of America. When a reader sent me a card saying that I was a true patriot, I was honored. And I think the take in this executive order is wrong. True pride isn't built on a lie. More on that in a moment. But first, welcome to the Preamble Podcast. This week, I'm speaking with former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She talks about growing up in segregated Birmingham, Alabama, and why she still has faith in democracy. In fact, she thinks it's on an upswing. That's ahead. I'm Sharon McMahon, and this is the Preamble Podcast. Now back to my story. Sometimes American history is inspiring. No doubt, as I said in the Small and the Mighty, with astonishing regularity, Americans have held fast to their ideals, despite the clickbait stories that portend calamity. And at the same time, America has too often fallen short of these standards. Both are true. At the same time, America has been just, and it has perpetuated injustice. We have been peaceful and we have committed acts of violence. We have been and are good, and we've done terrible things to people who didn't deserve it. America has been the land of the free while simultaneously sanctioning oppression. Such is often the case when dealing with anything run by fallible human beings. Sometimes we surprise ourselves in our capacity for greatness, and sometimes the weight of regret wraps around us like a chain. According to this executive order, the only proper thing to do is celebrate American greatness. I would argue that the proper thing to do is be honest, to repent of our sins when we fall short. To celebrate when we get it right. To try to be better tomorrow than we were today. In 1998, Congress passed H.R. 442, the Civil Liberties act of 1988, which was meant to take responsibility for what the United States government did to Americans of Japanese ancestry and Aleuts in Alaska during World War II. More than 100,000 people, most of whom were citizens and many of whom were children, were forcibly incarcerated in prison camps solely because of racial prejudice. In fact, the bill says Plainly in the introduction that the actions of the government were, quote, motivated by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership. It gave a cash payment of $20,000 to each of the remaining survivors. When Ronald Reagan signed the bill into law, he spoke at the podium behind the official seal of the United States for nearly nine minutes, Surrounded by members of Congress who worked on the bill. He said, quote, we gather here today to write a grave wrong. He continued that America has all the strength in the world, not in spite of, but because of, our polyglot background. The assembled audience applauded, shouting, bravo. Reagan. And the members of Congress, many of whom were personally affected by the Executive order that required their families imprisonment, smiled broadly and shook hands. And as the cheers continued. This is a fine day. Reagan concluded, waving to the crowd in his tan suit. Say whatever you like about Reagan and his politics, but the fact remains that we can say Ronald Reagan's handling of the AIDS crisis led to the death of tens of thousands of Americans, and apologizing for our actions during World War II was the right thing to do. Both can be true at the same time. Unity does not mean we all believe the same thing. The idea that a patriotic education in America is meant to be unifying does not mean we shy away from difficult conversations or refuse to grapple with hard truths. Unity doesn't mean we all agree and are indoctrinated with one single set of correct beliefs. It means that we are all unified in our understanding of. Of what America at her best will be. Just, peaceful, good and free. This was laid out by the framers of the Constitution and should be the North Star we can look to when times are dark. To be just, one must take sides. To be just, one must stand up against injustice. And that includes injustices that have happened throughout history and continue to happen today. Justice establishes clear expectations for behavior, and it most especially protects the rights of people who are not in the majority. Untruths are not admirable. The Executive Order says that America has admirably grown closer to its noble principles throughout its history and that children must be taught that. Has it, though? Wouldn't critical thinking be better served by a careful analysis and of in what ways America has grown closer to its principles and in which ways it has not? There's an all too common misconception that critical thinking means being critical of something that's not what it means. Critical thinking is a higher order intellectual skill that requires one to question, interpret, analyze and synthesize information. This Executive Order is asking for schools to do the opposite. It prescribes what the correct things are to learn without asking for students to interrogate that information for legitimacy. Prescribing what things someone is to uncritically believe is called indoctrination. A true patriot is clear eyed. They see what their country has done. They work to take steps to correct its wrongs and celebrate what it has done well. A true patriot is honest. They know that it's possible to love your country without pretending it is perfect and without ignoring injustice. A true patriot wants America to be its best. Just like a good coach doesn't review the tape of the previous game and say, y' all did absolutely everything perfectly. No notes. A true patriot is willing to accept the loss when America falls short, take notes on how to improve, and do their part in getting her to the next win. As for me in my house, these are the principles we live by. Principles that transcend party lines. Principles that transcend generational differences. Principles that stand the test of time. What a radical idea. When we come back, my conversation with former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She'll tell us what she sees as the biggest threat to the future of the country. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month as we celebrate women, I'm reflecting on the women who've shaped me. One friend in particular inspires me with how she balances motherhood, partnership and career goals while still being the emotional anchor for so many people. But being strong doesn't mean carrying everything alone. Therapy can be a place to process stress, celebrate growth, and prioritize your own needs. Better Help makes it easy to get started. Their therapists are fully licensed in the US and follow a strict code of conduct. You complete a short questionnaire and with more than 30,000 therapists and over 12 years of experience, they'll match you to someone who fits your needs, usually right away. And if you need a different fit, you can switch anytime. They've served more than 6 million people worldwide and have a 4.9 out of 5 session rating from over 1.7 million reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Sharon that's better. H E L P.com Sharon hey there
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This show has us fully overstimulated.
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It's messy, it's Mormon. It's everything.
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Real pleasure to be with you.
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It's a delight. You know, one of the things that I know you're very keenly aware of is that we are struggling with civic education right now. There has been studies done that show that we spend around $54 a year per student in the United States on STEM. A worthy goal. We should be educating for STEM, but only about 5 cents per student on civic education. And I wonder from your perspective, what are the repercussions of that?
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Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And this is a really important discussion, because the repercussions of not having civic education for our students, not to mention for our adults, is that we have a democracy that people don't understand. They don't understand how to make it work for them. Because democracy is an actually kind of complicated idea that you can carry out your interests and your values through these abstractions that we call institutions. The Constitution, elections, rule of law. And if Americans don't feel that they can represent their interests through those institutions, then they tend to pull back. And no democracy can work effectively if its citizens are not actively engaged. And so getting People to really understand the institutions, to understand how to make them work, is essential to a functioning democracy.
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You know, I've heard you say in the past that, you know, looking back on history, like the civil rights movement, that the civil rights movement was made possible, yes, of course, by things like marches and planned protests. But there were other important pieces of that tripod, like some of the institutions that we built, like the justice system, like the legislature, that you can't have long lasting change just with protests alone, but that in order to make that long lasting, important change, you have to understand the institutions. The problem here that I'm sure you're very well aware of, is that Americans are at a record low distrust of these institutions. A recent survey said that maybe 25% of Americans have a favorable opinion of the federal government. What would you say to Americans who just feel like our institutions are not trustworthy?
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There is no doubt that we've seen this decline in the confidence and trust in institutions. But very often you don't trust what you don't know. And so really imploring Americans to know the institutions, to know their history, to know what they've done in the past, it's really pretty extraordinary for somebody like me. I grew up in segregated Birmingham, Alabama, and I went all the way to be secretary of State. That's a story about the extraordinary capability of American institutions to channel change. And so one of the things I think we have to do is to remind Americans of when our institutions have brought about that change so that people are willing to give them a chance. My great friend George Schultz, who died at the age of 100 years old, used to wear a tie, and it said, democracy is not a spectator sport. And so I would say to Americans, you get the democracy that you deserve, that you work for. I know it's hard with the federal government sometimes. As a matter of fact, one of the things I often do is tell my students, you want to work in government, Go work in local government, go work on a planning commission, go and try to influence a Mario race. Because you'll see that government closer to the people tends to get their trust because they can see the effects. They can see things happening. When you get to the federal government, it's sometimes hard to see things happening. But we need to go back to those stories of when the federal government has made things happen, and to realize that not everything is bad in Washington, not everything is good. But the founding fathers understood that there were a very few things that the federal government had to do, and a lot of it was to, as they would have said, reserve to the states, reserve to the localities, and they added reserve to the people.
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I hear regularly from people in this political moment that they feel like they have been sold a bill of goods, that the idea that we have been educating people on that you have made a career educating people on the idea that we have things like the rule of law, that we have separation of powers and checks and balances, and that these fine institutions that we've spent hundreds of years building, that they're going to withstand the storm. And I know there are a lot of Americans at this moment who feel like, I don't know if that is true. I am seeing evidence to the contrary. Can you speak to that fear? Can you speak to the idea that, like, maybe democracy is not on the upswing?
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Well, if democracy isn't on the upswing, I don't know what is. You know, I'm often told sometimes even by my students who are young, and they don't remember some of our history of democracy, and they'll say, well, we can't get anything done. Well, actually, democracy was not meant to work quickly. The Founding Fathers were afraid of the tyranny of the majority, that if you just went with the majority and everything the majority wanted, the minority would be disadvantaged. And so they built this thing called representative government rather than direct government, where we go in and just decide everything on the basis of our individual interest. And so it's a process, and it's a system that requires compromise and it requires time. And so I would ask my fellow Americans to be a little bit patient with our institutions, because the worst thing is when you have somebody who can deliver, but they deliver without any interest in what you might have thought, what you might have been concerned about. Authoritarians are often very efficient. You just better hope that they're also benevolent. And most of the time they're not. So we're going to have to stick with democracy. That's the first point. Now, once we stick with democracy and we're more patient with it, we also realize that in times when things are in turmoil or in change, you also have to give time. These levers that you mentioned, rule of law, the ability of different levels of government to push back the individual citizens to push back against what they may consider excesses. That also takes time. Things will go to the courts. The courts will help to decide what is an appropriate role for the executive and what isn't an appropriate role for the executive. We have Congress, and congresspeople will go to their constituencies and they'll hear loud and clear, this isn't working for me. That isn't working for me. And if they want to get reelected, that will affect how they behave when they go back to Washington D.C. but most importantly, when we look at the states, when we look at what governors do, it's one reason I actually love governors. They really do have to deliver and they have probably a greater say in many of the issues that are of interest to us. Education is one of them. That's essentially a state and local issue. And so don't give up on democracy. There isn't anything else out there. You know, it's been said that it's the worst of all systems until you've tried everything else. So we have an obligation to try to make this work. And it has many guardrails, it has many opportunities for engagement. And we have something else that most democracies don't have. We have very powerful civil society. We have those institutions like Rotary Clubs and Boys and Girls Clubs and American Red Cross where individual citizens take responsibility for individual citizens. And that's one of the strongest reads of democracy too. So this is a multi layered system and that's why I have so much faith in it. The founders were afraid of tyranny. That's what they feared most. They wanted to get out from under George iii. And so they created a system that would be multi layered. But it means that it sometimes works slowly.
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I heard you say something that I want to touch on, which is this idea of compromise. Most of the important things that have happened in US history, most important pieces of legislation, you know, the Voting Rights act, the Civil Rights act, et cetera, they are a result of coalition building and compromise. And I think we're at this moment politically where compromise has become a four letter word. It's been reduced to something gross. I'd love to hear your take on what it means to compromise in a democracy.
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To compromise in a democracy, is that we try to find what I'll call the overlap of our interests. So it's not that kind of squishy middle. It's not that I compromise on my values or my principles, but it does require me to realize when it's really not about my principles versus your principles or my values versus your values. It's just we have a policy dispute, we have a policy difference. We want to approach a problem differently. So now let's see if there's a place where I can take what you are interested in, what you need, what I am interested in, what I need. And can we Find that overlap. That's the compromise, and it is absolutely essential in democracy. Madison called it a constant contestation of politics. So on this issue, you might get a little bit more of what you want and I get a little bit less. Next time around, it might be the other way around, but I have to recognize that we're going to move from this issue to the next issue, and you have to be my partner each time. So I treat you with respect, I treat you with dignity, I listen to your concerns, and then we try to find a place where we can come together. The problem now is that everything moves so fast. If I could have one reform, I would actually take the cameras out of the Senate and out of the House of Representatives. I know, you know, transparency, so forth and so on, but I'd kind of like them to have a chance to talk to a colleague before you go and post your position, before you find a microphone, to just have a firm, I must have this, because maybe you don't have to have that after you've listened to your colleague. If I could have a rule, it's before you go to social media, you have to talk to at least one colleague with whom you disagree.
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It seems like, yeah, cameras in Congress have just become opportunities for press conferences, an opportunity for grandstanding. If the camera pans, nobody is there listening. They are talking to an empty room to get on camera.
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It really does happen. I actually even remember this sometime from my personal experience. I would go to testify, and when the cameras were in the room, it was contentious because you wanted to show, you gave what for to the Secretary of State, and then you got on the evening news back home and it was all great. The minute the cameras were gone, that kind of energy went out of the room and people were actually interested in the answers to the questions, not just making a point. So, again, I get the transparency point, but I also think that sometimes if you can get people into a less public environment, into a place where they're not performing for the cameras, I mean, who are we kidding? Cameras make everybody perform. And then social media, of course, just exacerbates it because you go to social media to talk to your tribe. So I'm not one who believes that social media, by the way, is necessarily the root cause of it. Social media exacerbates the root cause, and the root cause is not having the patience and the time to listen to those who may disagree.
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You know, you have a very uniquely expert opinion on the international world order, and I wonder if you could share with us what does it mean for America's place in the world? What does it mean for foreign relations when we are not getting the kind of civic education that we need? You know, what does it mean now, but also what does it mean for our future if we poorly understand how the world works?
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I would love to see Americans understand how America works. And that gives you a lens on why the United States has been so influential in the world. If you go to other countries, which I did all the time as secretary, I still do. They are amazed that people, the Americans who actually don't share ethnic background, nationality, we're not the same religion, and somehow we stay together in what is a creed. It doesn't matter where you came from, it matters where you're going. You can come from humble circumstances, you can do great things. And for the most part we've been able to make that true. And that's a enormously attractive to people who are still struggling for freedom. The other thing that's enormously attractive, and I tried to make this point all the time, and again, it's something Americans have forgotten. This is a long journey. Democracy. It took us a long time. My ancestors were counted as 3/5 of a man in the first Constitution. When I was a child in Birmingham, we couldn't go to a restaurant or to a movie theater because we were black. And so when you know America's story as an American, you can go out into the world and say, america is here not because we're perfect, as a matter of fact, we're incredibly imperfect. But because every day we get up and we try to put another brick into the foundation of democracy. And every day we try to extend we the people just a little bit more. And so we understand the experience of countries that are just getting the chance to build democracy because a tyrant has been overthrown or a bad system has collapsed. That's the connection between understanding America's history and heritage and who we are and how long it's taken us and having something to say to the rest of the world. The point that I make abroad and with Americans is if any people should be patient about those who are seeking to have the rights that we enjoy. The right to say what you think, worship as you please, be free from the knock of the secret police at night and to choose those who would govern you, how hard that is. Americans ought to understand that because we've been through a very long and sometimes very tough journey to even get to where we are now.
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Well, I would be the first to say that not everything that we have done in foreign assistance and foreign aid is effective. And it may be time to rethink some of it as well. I'm a great believer, first of all, humanitarian assistance. We have great nonprofits, whether it's Catholic Charities or World Vision or the International Rescue Committee. We have a lot of great charities that help the most hurting, whether it's out of disaster relief, whether it is to feed hunger. The United States has always been the largest food aid donor in the world. And we were actually the largest food aid donor to North Korea at one point in time because no American president uses food as a weapon. That's very unusual for a great power. And I want to be able to say that about the United States of America. I also want to be able to say that we have power, military power, economic power, but we also have compassion as a people. And so when I would go to a place and I could see mothers that had been saved by the President's emergency plan for AIDS relief, so they were going to see their children grow up, or I went once to China and this little boy was probably 12 years old or so, and he spoke perfect English. And he walked up to me and said, you're that lady from America, aren't you? And I was there for disaster relief after an earthquake. That's the side of America that is quite unlike most of those great powers that shape the international system. And so we need all aspects of our power. Yes, we need military power. Sometimes it's just a security issue. Yes, we need our economic clout. Sometimes it is about making the world more prosperous and America more. More prosperous because of that. But sometimes it's about just showing our heart, showing who we are as a people. And when we think about civics, one of the things that we know because every child has done it, is the lemonade stand that is raising money for help with poor people or the kids who are going to show up for the drive to get books into a poor school. We know that impulse in the United States, that impulse needs to show itself abroad as well. I'm also religious person and I just believe to whom much is given, much is expected. And so as we go through reevaluating our programs, what's worked, what hasn't, I don't mind that it will now be a part of the State Department. I really think that's important. It's the right thing. But let's not lose sight of when you walk into a room as Secretary of State, on one shoulder you have American military power, on the other shoulder you have American economic power. But right in the middle you have that. People know that if there's a place that's hurting, the United States of America is going to be there first.
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A
Yeah. We're here at the Hoover Institution. Herbert Hoover was the great humanitarian.
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Herbert Hoover was an amazing humanitarian. He did the war relief after World War I and 2. Yes. And asked to do it because he'd done such a great job after World War I. And I'll tell you a wonderful story that connects Stanford and Herbert Hoover, but just tells you how long lasting these effects can be. The president of Stanford a few years ago was a man named Gerhard Kasper. He'd been a German child in Hamburg after the war. And he said that they would get these little packages the devastation at the time after the war, and they called them Hoovers because Herbert Hoover had made sure that these American soldiers could hand out these Hoovers, these little packages of aid to German children. He was six years old and he still remembered that came to the United States, became the president of one of the America's great institutions. That's an American story and we want to have that be an American story for a long time to come.
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A
I appreciated too how Truman after World War II, when he looked around and saw famine spreading throughout Europe, he didn't look around and find the best Democrat to do the job. He looked around and found the best American to help. And that happened to be Herbert Hoover. And this is part of Hoover's legacy that has been sort of brushed aside from the public view. And I love one of his quotes, just paraphrasing when people criticized him about giving food aid to Soviet children, he said something to the effect of, you know, children are not communist or capitalist and on our watch these children are going to eat. And again, I'm paraphrasing, but the idea that humanitarianism doesn't belong to a certain political party, I think is an important point to be made.
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Humanitarianism, compassion, if you will, it's a part of America. And when I look at Herbert Hoover and I see every American president in some way or another wanted that side of America to show the side that also spoke for the voiceless. It was Ronald Reagan that created the National Endowment for Democracy. Why? Because when you think about how grateful we should be to be able to say what we think or to worship as we please, if we believe that as a universal value, then we have to speak for those who can't speak for themselves. And so for those who cannot take care of themselves in other parts of the world. America has always been a shining light. And it doesn't mean that we are not very tough minded. We actually are, because as I said, great powers don't mind their own business. We have tried to reshape the international system, but we've also had a sense of view that if others were doing well, it was better for us too. And I want that to continue to be at the core of who we are.
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What concerns you the most right now about the United States and the world?
- [39:51]
B
What concerns me most about the United States right now is our inability to talk to each other across views, across boundaries, across geographies, across types of experiences. I wonder how many students here at Stanford have ever encountered somebody from a rural community. And I know that because of being able to do financial aid and the like. We have a lot of first generation students. It's really important that people who come from different backgrounds, different experiences, have common experiences. At one time, that was the military. A lot of people served in the military. Increasingly, the people who serve in the military are not from the upper strata of society. And that's actually not good either. I'm a great believer in national service, not necessarily military service, but that you could spend a little time when you are out of high school doing something and working with people who have less than you have. You go to a boys and girls club, you see what these kids are overcoming just to have a chance. And you think, I am never again going to ask what don't I have? I'm going to say, why do I have so much? And that's a wonderful experience for every American to have. And so we in the United States have a lot of problems. We have a lot of people who are hurting. We have a lot of people who need help from their communities and from their neighbors. We also have a lot of people in the world who would give anything just to have what we have as Americans. And so that for me is the link between who we are at home and our ability to exercise power and influence abroad on the basis of principle and compassion.
- [41:44]
A
What is bringing you hope Right now?
- [41:47]
B
I'm hopeful because I teach in a university and every day I encounter my students who are, in the 40 years that I've taught, the most public minded students I've ever met. They want to do things bigger than themselves. Now they're in a hurry and I have to slow them down sometimes. And they think if they've googled it, they've researched it. And I say, no, no, there's this thing called depth. You've got to understand that. And I will say to them, before you decide you're going to solve that problem, how about we know something about that problem? And so a part of my responsibility as a professor is to take all that energy and that desire to change the world and to help channel it into an understanding of how you do that. And that goes back to the question of using the institutions that we are so fortunate to have in our country. Not every country has them. But using those institutions to bring change. Protesting, yes, it's a valued right. But as I've said about the civil rights movement, the protests that I witnessed as a child in Birmingham in what was called Kelly Ingram park, which was where Bull Connor, the police commissioner, unleashed his police stocks on peaceful protesters. But it Was also Thurgood Marshall deciding at a kitchen table from 1937 on, what cases are we going to take to try to undo segregation and Jim Crow and then the great legislation of 1964 and 65. So every part of the system working, the president working with Congress, the courts making decisions, individual citizens being out there to say, this has to change, but it all works together. And I'd like my students to know that history a little bit better so that they have a strategy, too, for making change.
- [43:51]
A
One more question, which is that I hear from adults every day that they have gotten to adulthood and feel like I never learned any of this. I never learned how government works. And there have been examples of people who have gotten elected to high office who can't name the three branches of a government. Secretary Rice. That is not good.
- [44:14]
B
It's not good.
- [44:16]
A
And they are determined to do better for themselves, but also to do better for their children and their grandchildren. What would you say to somebody who is maybe they're 40 years old and they're working in an emergency department as a nurse, and they want to be a positive force in America. They want their children to grow up knowing what it takes to move the needle, being able to research and understand the depth of problems that we're facing. What advice would you give them to make sure that they are well educated on civics and that their descendants are, too?
- [44:53]
B
I have really three suggestions for that person. By the way. I'm old enough that we used to have those. You know, the little bill with the feet on it that was going through the system.
- [45:04]
A
The schoolhouse. That's right.
- [45:06]
B
That's right. So we really took it seriously. And Mrs. Riles, who taught me civics in fourth grade, she knew that I was going to know the three branches of government. So the first thing is get it into the schools and ask questions about whether it's in your children's schools. Yes, it's great that people are spending money on stem. We need that. But that they're also spending money on our institutions on how our government works, on what it is to be human and to work within your government to make change. So assure that it's in your schools, and you can do that at school board meetings, and you can do that as a parent, teacher association meetings. You have the right to insist on that for your children and for your grandchildren. Secondly, in terms of your own circumstances, go online. There are lots of resources, and they're going to be even more. As we get to the 250th anniversary of 1776 and the Declaration of Independence and read about them. And I believe little stories are best. I hope that there are people out there creating stories about how these institutions get used, like the one about how the Civil Rights movement actually advanced. So go online. Look, maybe also a book club. I know there's not much time in some people's lives, but if just once a month, maybe in your church or in your community center, you can gather with others who just want to read a little bit about what the United States is about. And then finally, practice is so important not to think of democracy as just something that you read about, something that's done to you, something that was important back in that history, but something that you can experience now on a daily basis in your community. What is it that you want to change? That is actually the practice of democracy, too. It's not just what happens in Washington. It's not even what happens just in your state capitol. It's what happens in your community. And so I always feel that it's a little bit invigorating to be a part of a democratic enterprise in a way that affects the lives right around you. And your children will see it, too, and that'll give them more reason to think the little bill with the feet might be worth watching.
- [47:21]
A
Secretary Rice, thank you so much. Thank you.
- [47:23]
B
This was delightful. Great to be with you.
- [47:24]
A
Nice to see you. Be sure to read our newsletter@thepreamble.com, it's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. Thanks for listening.
- [47:45]
C
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