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A
You know what nobody tells you about weeknight dinner? It's the thing that never goes away. Every single day around five o', clock, there it is again. And before HelloFresh, my version of dinner was standing in front of the fridge, tired, hungry, somehow annoyed at food itself, wondering can we do Cheerios for dinner? Is anybody fine with just scrounging whatever we have in here? Hellofresh doesn't make you a better cook, but what it does do is give you your weeknights back. Because dinner isn't actually about cooking skills, it's about the mental load of figuring it out every single night when you're already exhausted. HelloFresh completely removes that pre portioned ingredients step by step. Recipe cards, everything's ready in around 30 minutes. They have over 100 recipes every week, so you are picking what actually sounds good, not what you can panic cook. The portions are generous too, which matters. In my house, one of my go to meals is their steak with roasted veggies. It saved me on a night when I had zero energy or Chris had zero energy. Chris does a lot of cooking at my house, but I still wanted real hot food, especially in a Minnesota winter. The quality is legit. It is sustainably sourced seafood, antibiotic free chicken, seasonal produce that actually tastes like something. Go to hellofresh.com preamble10fm to get 10 free meals and a free Zwilling knife which is $144 value on your third box. This offer is valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as a discount on your first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. HelloFresh.com Preamble10FM you know this is the time of year when we all look at the messier parts of our business and think there has to be a better way. And there is. Streamlining your communication is one of the quickest and easiest upgrades you can make. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O the smarter way to run Your business communications quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews built for how modern teams work. More than 90,000 businesses rely on Quo to stay connected, professional and consistently reachable. Whether you're at your desk, on your phone or on the go, Quo works wherever you are. Keep your existing number, add teammates in minutes, sync your CRM and rely on seamless routing and call flows. As your business scales, your team can handle calls and texts from a single shared number. See the full conversation thread and reply faster, making every customer feel genuinely cared for and with Quo's AI, calls are logged automatically, summaries are generated and next steps are highlighted so nothing falls through the cracks. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com. sharon. That's Q-U-O.com Sharon Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Welcome to the Preamble Podcast. I have a special guest for you today. She's a comedian, musician, and author, and she's a huge social media following. You might know her from her hilarious description of the worst first date she ever had, where she ended up at Taco Bell and her date ordered 100 tacos and then she got stuck paying for them. Elise Myers is here today to talk about her new book. That's a great question. I'd love to tell you. And Tiya Miles also joins me to talk about her book on Harriet Tubman, specifically how Harriet's faith guided her. And even if you think you know about Harriet Tubman's story, you'll learn something today. I'm Sharon McMahon, and this is the Preamble Podcast. I'm now joined by Elise Myers. Her new book is. That's a great question. I'd love to tell you. Okay, I'm going to show you something, and I want. I want to get your reaction to it.
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B
Okay?
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A
You'll be familiar with it. This is not a surprise. God. I want to show it to you, and then I want you to tell me what you think when you see this.
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B
What's the worst first date I've ever been on? I'm so glad you asked. I was on dating apps as you do. This man messages me out of the blue and he goes, I like your face. Let's go get some food. I love food. Are you my SoulMate? I drive 45 minutes to his house. He's standing outside of it. He walks up to my car and he goes, I've lost my keys. Can you drive us there? Should I have just left him right there and gone home? Yes.
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A
Did I? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
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B
We end up at a Taco Bell, which is fine.
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A
Is it, though?
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B
I'm like, dine in or drive thru?
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A
And he's like, drive through.
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B
I'm fine with that. He has a plan. We get to the speaker and he just leans over and goes, I would like 100 tacos. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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A
And then you go on to go back to his house. He dumps all the tacos out. The video that Kind of started it off. It's the first video I remember seeing of yours. What do you think when you see that today, all these years later?
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B
It's so funny because like, that video to me is timeless because it reminds me so much of the way that I tell a story sitting at coffee with like a friend. Like that is genuinely like, you know, I'm one coffee in or like one drink in or something and I'm like animatedly telling my friend a story. That's like what I'm seeing in my mind when I'm telling it all the little emojis and like, it's not even to me the craziest story because I've had so many worst dates. Just, you know, a lot of things in my life. I think I just read the room incorrectly to the point where then I end up so deep into it that I'm like, well, the only way through it is through it. So we're just keep going.
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A
I'm paying for em and we're eat the cock off.
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B
Yeah, I was really sensitive to like not wanting people to feel like we were pranking them. So I was like, unfortunately I can't afford to pay for this because I just got paid. It was like almost my entire paycheck. I was a cater waiter at the time, so you made more on like your tips than you did the actual like paycheck. And so I had like 170 bucks in my account and I think it was like 150 something dollars that order. And I was like, I can't even lie and say I can't afford it because technically I can, but I don't want to.
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A
Unfortunately, I can't afford it and thus I am obligated.
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B
Yeah, that's how my brain works. I'm not a liar. And I also had no boundaries at the time. So it was like, well, I guess this is the only right thing is I'm just gonna pay for it. So you know what? It made it for a great story. And then I told the Internet and now I'm here. And here you are now.
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A
That's right. It must have been worth it.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You know, I read that's a great question. I'd love to tell you. And I guess one of the things that I was wondering when I was reading this is what made you feel like after everything you've been through in your life, after everything you've experienced on the Internet, everything you've experienced with your own children, with your own health, what made you feel like I need to write a book. And it needs to be now. Now is the moment.
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B
I mean, I've wanted to write a book my whole life. And I even, like in the book that's kind of talked about and finished in the end, and I started writing it before I had my son. So I was like pregnant when I sold the book and knew exactly what it was going to be and all of that, but I just then had to make it happen and give it to them. And then my son got diagnosed with his heart problem and I paused everything. And then, honestly, I used the time that I was like, spending healing from my son and my son healing and us doing the surgeries and all of that. I just remember writing so much of this book in my notes, on my phone to do anything other than focus on what I was experiencing at the moment. And it was like this gift was given to me. One, a dream come true. I've always been a writer, I've always wanted to write. But two, to work on something so wonderful and so beautiful and so life giving to me at a time that I needed it so badly. And it felt like the healthiest distraction I could have had at the time. And so every time I look back on the book, I know exactly where I was when I wrote that sentence in that phrase and when I went back and edited it. And then all the illustrations I did after Oliver's heart was fixed and we got the all clear. In so many ways, this book is so meaningful to me. And because it was a lifelong dream, getting to complete it when I did matters so much more to me as well. Like, that's just a more personal thing for me that most people won't know of the book. But yeah, I mean, what better time to make a dream come true than when it feels like everything's falling apart?
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A
So true. So good. Yeah. You talk a lot about coming to the realization that you're. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but, like, your brain isn't just being dramatic.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's running on a different operating system in many ways, in other people's. Is that a fair characterization?
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B
Yeah, Operating system is a great way to put it. Yeah.
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A
You just experience the world differently. Do you remember when you first realized that? When you first realized that, like, actually this is not some character flaw of mine, that my brain just actually works differently and that's okay?
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B
Yeah. I always realized it was different, but then as a kid, I was wrong. But I think that's because when you're younger, you're kind of Forced to be put into systems that are categorizing you in a way that makes you not fall behind or be too ahead of other people. And so it's like there was this system built around me in school that was just not built for me. And so I failed a lot of class. Like I just, my gosh, I just believed I was really dumb. And I was like, this doesn't make sense to me because I was so curious and I loved learning. I just could not learn the way other people did. But it was when I got older and I had more control over my time and I realized that I'm not dumb. I just am way better at teaching myself. And I'm visual and I'm tactile and I don't receive verbal instructions well, I can't see it in my head the way that somebody's explaining it. But if you just give me a video, I could watch five minutes of a 15 minute video and be like, ah, I got it. You know, the pattern recognition is pattern recognitioning. And so I just learned that I'm a good self teacher. And when I really accepted that, it was like, well, how hard could anything be if I could just teach myself? And then I learned like this is actually a superpower. This is incredible. Like this way of thinking, this operating system did not serve me at all when I was younger. But now as an adult, learning myself and learning to build a life around me that suits me and not me trying to fit into a life that doesn't make sense for me, Letting go of that shame of it not being the way I thought it would be has opened up my whole life to allowing me to design whatever life I need to around myself so that I am successful in it. When I realized I could design a life that works for me, all of a sudden I didn't feel like I was swimming upstream. And it didn't feel like this loss of neurotypicalness. It was like, this is just a different way that was really helpful for me. Just becoming an adult and getting my own time to design was great.
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A
Yeah, yeah. When you weren't constrained by boundaries that were not serving you. I hear that. I hear that.
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B
Totally. Yeah.
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A
You mentioned quite a bit in your work too. This, these sort of internalized feelings of shame that you had surrounding being different surrounding, like I don't know why I can't learn that way. I don't know why my brain is like this. I don't know why I misread all these social situations. Do men and women experience shame Differently. Do you feel like any of this is related to the fact that women have different societal expectations put on them?
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B
Oh, I mean, for sure. I mean, even the fact that, like, women's brains were not even considered when even studying neurodivergence. The studies are men like men's brains, which presents so differently to women's brains and being neurodivergent. And so we're just seeing an uptick now in diagnosing women with ADHD and autism. And so I think that, number one, just us not knowing how women present.
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C
Yeah.
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B
That aren't neurotypical is a huge disservice. But then second, when I look back on me and my brothers, I'm not a doctor and I'm not diagnosing them, but I would be shocked if my three brothers were not also neurodivergent in some way. They were allowed to be loud, and they were allowed to, you know, run around. And, like, I wasn't good on teams, and so I never did the sports thing, but I was, like, a music kid. And so I was also very introverted. But, like, I kind of had to be. Cause it's like I was, like, the mom of the house, too. So it's like, the expectation on me to be, like, quiet and be calm and be peaceful and be, like, girly. You know, all these things that were not me in any way, but I felt pressure to do that when I wasn't that way. That's when that shame naturally was like. Like inherited into my DNA and just, like, carried with me for so long. I think that there are just so many very niche and specific situations women are put in where it seems like suddenly they are presenting in a way that they never have. But it's like, you get to this point in your life when you're a woman where all this pressure is all at once from every angle. And your brain's like, I've got to let something go. And usually that's the masking, because that's, like, in the way of you actually getting the tasks done and finding solutions for things. And so a lot of the times women will be like, I just felt like I turned 30, and all of a sudden, like, my brain just stopped working, you know? And it's like, no. Your brain's finally just like, we've gotta fix something here, because we can't keep masking. This is not serving us anymore.
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A
I wonder about, you know, the cultural conditioning of little girls need to be nice.
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B
Yes.
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A
I hypothesize, as a longtime teacher, that this is one reason why, in addition to the fact that, like you mentioned, we don't study neurodivergence in girls nearly as much.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But also because so often what gets somebody sort of flagged in the system, as, you know, something's going on here, is their unmanageable classroom behavior when they are kind of out of control and they're hitting people and kicking things and being rude to the teacher and not being cooperative. And so often girls are socialized to be nice, be quiet, be sweet, be cute. And there are many women, neurodivergent or not, who feel boxed in by that. But when little girls habituate that behavior, I think in many ways it can mask what is going on underneath because they don't present as a behavior problem in the classroom.
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B
What I think is confusing too, though, is, like, why is it that when little boys respond that way, oh, he's neurodivergent. And when a girl responds that way, it's like a behavior issue. Like, you're like, you're just not trying hard enough, and you're unkind and you're rude and aggressive, and that must be because you're just fundamentally wrong as a person. Yeah. Like, wow, get her under control. And then a dude is like that, and it's like, boys will be boys. And also if not, then maybe that's too much. He probably needs medication for that because it's, like, not a him thing.
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He needs more recession.
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Yeah. I'm like, yeah, so does she. Honestly, it's so encouraging to get to be a part of a generation now where, like, our parents didn't have those tools, and now we are learning new tools, and we are allowing young girls and just young kids in general to take up more space and to, like, not have to, like, fix certain things, but then also be really mindful of, like, what is a personality thing and what might just be you need a little extra assistance because your brain doesn't function the way the person next to you does, and neither are right or wrong. I'm really grateful that we are able to do that now with our kids. It's been really special and healing for me as a parent to get to give them what I didn't have.
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A
More with Elise in just a minute. Lately, I've been trying to make my downtime actually feel meaningful instead of just scrolling. So I started treating masterclass like a little daily reset, and it's become such a good ritual. The class that hooked me was Esther Perel's course on strengthening relief relationships. I went into it, thinking it would just give broad advice. But her breakdown of communication patterns was so practical that I ended up using one of her techniques in a real conversation the next day. It gave me this surprising confidence boost, like, oh, I can actually get better at this. And that's the thing about masterclass. It really does make you better. With plans starting at just $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes from the world's best experts. The lessons are short and easy to squeeze in, and with audio mode, you can turn your commute into a mini classroom. You can watch anywhere on your phone, laptop, even your tv. And if you're traveling, you can download classes to learn offline. No wonder 88% of members say Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com that's 15% off@masterclass.com Sharon masterclass.com Sharon when News 1st breaks, it's everywhere. In the headlines, on tv, all over
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social media, in your push notifications.
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It's like a storm, but the coverage leaves you feeling unsatisfied. Well, that's where we come in. I'm Meghna Chakrabarti, host of On Point. We ask the questions that still need answers. We analyze the meaning behind the news and why it matters to your life. We equip you with the knowledge you
- [17:27]
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need to face the next news storm. OnPoint is clarity when it counts. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:41]
A
Let's be honest, for many of us, if your morning routine takes longer than five minutes, it's just not happening. And that's why I've been loving Merit Beauty. I've been using Merit for a while now, and it's become my go to because everything is effortless. Many days I reach for the minimalist. It's not quite a foundation, not quite a concealer, but it replaces both and gives me quick, natural coverage without layering on a ton of product. Merit is a minimalist beauty brand designed to help you look put together in minutes. Their bestsellers really prove that less is more. Like the Flesh Balm, which gives the most natural healthy glow and was selling one every 30 seconds in 2024. And on no makeup days, I just use their Great Skin Serum for instant hydration and a fresh, dewy look. Everything is clean, vegan, cruelty free, and made with nourishing skincare ingredients. It's makeup and skin care that actually fits real life. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering our listeners Their signature makeup bag with your first order@meritbeauty.com that's me. R I T beauty.com to get your free signature makeup bag with your first order. Meritbeauty.com I'm back now with Elise Myers. You've talked before about some of your experiences with religion, and I've watched many of your videos about your time in Australia. And I'm curious, from your vantage point now, hindsight being 20 20, in what ways do you feel like your experiences in that aspect of your life with a religious faith have impacted who you are today?
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B
That's a really good question. I'd love to tell you.
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A
I'd love to tell you. Yeah.
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B
I'd love to tell you. Yeah. I think, to be honest, when I found religion, it was at a time when I was so desperate for community and when I was a part of that church in Australia, I was immediately connected because at that season, I just needed someone to see me and be like, hey, we want you here. We want you to be a part of this now. It changed over time, and it became very unhealthy for me in that place, and I left. But I learned that the things I was craving I could create in my life, and I didn't need for it to exist externally from me, and I didn't need to, like, have someone invite me into this thing. I could create community and I could make music, and I could find belonging in people that were around me, and I could make that for other people. That's what's so special to me, is, like. So my three goals when I make content are to make people feel known, loved, and like, they belong. And I think that there is not enough of that in the world, especially not, like, enough of people that wake up in the morning and they're like, that's my goal, you know? And so I just found that, like, the feelings I felt when I was really lost and really broken and really alone, being welcomed into a group of people, I'll never forget that feeling.
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A
You're obviously very good at telling entertaining stories. And so the aspect of like. And you can laugh at some of the ridiculous things you've thought and done and have happened to you, and you can be like, I paid for the 100 tacos. Don't know why, Couldn't tell you, but I did it, you know?
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B
Like, I mean, I can tell you, but it's not a great answer.
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A
You're not gonna like the answer. I think that's exactly why your content resonates with people, is even if they don't 100% relate to, like, I got involved in this weird situation in Australia. They can understand what it was underpinning it. The desire to be accepted for just exactly who you are.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Something that really matters to humans.
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B
That's why it's so special to me that, like, if you look at my content, some people might say, like, it's just so random because I don't niche down or, you know, all of that. But I think the beautiful thing about that is the stories are funny because there's also things that are not funny on my account because that's how life works. That's how when you are in relationship with a human being, like, you're gonna get a phone call where you think it's gonna be like, oh, this funny person's funny. And they're like bawling on the other end. And you're like, oh, let me take the costume I put on really quick for you off on FaceTime, because this isn't a funny conversation. This is a serious conversation. And so you answer the phone, you know, with like a clown mask on, you're like, sorry, sorry, take it off. I've done that so many times. Oh my God. Okay, sorry. That's like a very specific thing because I've done that so many times. That's how life works. And so to be able to give people a whole spectrum of me, I think it also allows me to like, make darker jokes as well. Because, like, when you've gone through like trauma, it's fun to like, be able to laugh about it. But if you don't also allow like that full breadth of like, happy to sad and everything in between, it can seem like you're poking fun at hurt. And so it's really fun to be able to build a community online where it's like, we can laugh a little bit about this because if you don't laugh, you cry. We can do both in the same 62nd time period. But it's just really special to me that I can give people a place to feel like they're totally fine however they show up, like, they're just good. And it's not because it's performative, it's because it's truly like, I truly believe that. And it makes me so happy when people feel that when they watch my content.
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A
What do you hope when somebody closes the last page of that's a Great question, I'd love to tell you. What do you hope they sort of tuck into their pocket and take with them?
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B
Honestly, I hope that as soon as they close it, they go buy a journal, if they don't have one already, and they just start writing down things from their life. I was so inspired when I was, like, writing and doing the illustrations and, like, having these stories. I am, like, watching my own handwriting, knowing, like, coffee spilled from 12 years ago in a cafe, you know, on this page. Like, it means so much and to have these and to watch my growth as a person through these journals. It's an incredible tool if you are curious about learning about yourself and trying to understand yourself. The first thing I'd say, even if you have nothing to write about, write about how you have nothing to write about and do it with your hand. Do not do it on a computer, because it changes your brain chemistry and it changes your understanding of yourself. So that's what I hope is just go buy a journal. Yeah.
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A
That's such great advice. I saw somebody say something online recently where they were saying, how likely are you to engage in X activity? And it was something that nobody wanted to do. And somebody said, I would rather walk naked through a football stadium while the journal that I wrote when I was 14 years old was read aloud over the TA system. I do think it's so fun to look back on who you used to be.
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B
Yes.
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A
Sometimes it's like, it's so cringey, but nevertheless, that is a version of yourself that someday you will cherish.
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B
And honestly, I don't censor myself in my journals. And, like, I'm so grateful I don't, because when I read back, I see the impending doom. Like, this is the person I'm gonna marry. And it's like, that's definitely not the person you're gonna marry. But the belief, like, the unfounded, delusional, wholehearted lover girl belief I had in myself and everyone around me was so pure, and that has never left. And I'm just like, yeah, Elise, like, you're gonna make a gigantic mistake right now in about five pages. But, like, that's everybody else's problem because you believed so deeply in these people, and it's just really special. So, yeah, journals are just. I'm a big fan.
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C
I love it.
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A
Thank you so much for making time to do this. I know how busy you are.
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B
This is great.
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A
And I really loved being able to meet you and really loved being able to talk about your book. Congrats on all your success. You can get Elise's book. That's a great question. I'd love to tell you@bookshop.org or wherever you get your books. Coming up. Harriet Tubman is a towering figure in history, but you don't know her like this. How her faith kept her going through the hardest times. Next Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. The biggest challenge in therapy isn't just showing up. It's finding the right therapist in the first place. Many people deal with uncertainty around fit insurance and cost, and that's where Alma can help. ALMA is dedicated to simplifying access to high quality, affordable mental health care. They offer a nationwide directory of over 20,000 diverse therapists that you can browse without creating an account. Alma's filters make it easy to find therapists who take your insurance and match your preferences, whether that's therapeutic style, identity or specific needs. With 99% of therapists accepting insurance, people who use ALMA to find in network care save an average of 80% on session costs. And their free insurance cost estimator lets you know exactly what you'll pay upfront. A year from today, who do you want to be? The right therapist can help you get there. A year from today isn't that far away. Get started now@helloalma.com preamble that's hello Alma.com P R E A M B L E. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. The biggest challenge in therapy isn't just showing up. It's finding the right therapist in the first place. Many people deal with uncertainty around fit insurance and cost, and that's where Alma can help. ALMA is dedicated to simplifying access to high quality, affordable mental health care. They offer a nationwide directory of over 20,000 diverse therapists that you can browse without creating an account. Alma's filters make it easy to find therapists who take your insurance and match your preferences, whether that's therapeutic style, identity or specific needs. With 99% of therapists accepting insurance, people who use ALMA to find in network care save an average of 80% on session costs, and their free insurance cost estimator lets you know exactly what you'll pay upfront. A year from today, who do you want to be? The right therapist can help you get there. A year from today isn't that far away. Get started now@helloalma.com preamble that's helloalma.com P R E A M B L E A year from today, what would your
- [27:39]
B
dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had a network to reach out to for questions or free continuing education. What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. With a network of engaged providers and free CE resources, ALMA makes it easy for you to build the practice of your dreams on your terms. Alma believes that when therapists get the support they need, mental health care gets better for everyone. Learn more about alma@helloalma.com get started. Your dream practice is closer than you think.
- [28:25]
A
Get started now@helloalma.com get started. I'm joined now by Tiya Miles to talk about her book Night Flyer, Harriet Tubman and the Faith Dreams of a Free People. I was literally getting teary before we even pressed record. You have no idea how excited I am to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here.
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C
Well, thanks so much for having me, Sharon. It's a delight to be here.
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A
I want to start by talking a little bit about why Harriet Tubman. She's obviously a beloved American figure, but I want to know your why. I want to know why Harriet Tubman and why now?
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C
I think I'm going to respond to that question by telling you a secret. I don't think it is typical or maybe even accepted widely in the academy for a scholar to choose a topic because of concerns in the present day. That is actually something that I do. I choose my topics because I want to try to help with our current problems and challenges and, you know, our fears and anxieties. And Harriet Tubman seemed to me to be just the right kind of figure who can help us along right now. And I know that it helps me personally to be able to think back to figures in the past who also carried heavy weights with them, who also were very concerned about their present and desperately afraid sometimes about the future. And to see that even beneath these cloudy skies, those figures were able to act. They were able to maintain their sense that something could change and they enacted change.
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A
I find that figures like Harriet Tubman, they bring me hope in a moment of extreme political stress, in a moment where studying history itself has become politicized, in a moment where voting rights are under attack. I take heart in seeing how she did not grow weary in doing good. And that to me is like, it's so easy to grow weary. I'm just gonna spend this whole interview just like tearing up, just thinking about her. First of all, what she did.
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C
Yes.
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A
How Tiya, like she's just out there, like navigating in the dark, knowing that her life is in peril. I need a computer to tell me to turn right, Okay? I need a satellite to track my location. You know what I mean? Like, even just the logistics of what she did is mind boggling to me. I don't get it. But okay, I accept it.
- [31:15]
C
I agree with you about how being the big question with Harriet Tubman. Why is also a big question. What motivated her to take these grave risks? The how and the why are so important.
- [31:29]
A
She suffered a head injury when she was young.
- [31:31]
C
Yes.
- [31:32]
A
Do you attribute any of her gifts, her visions, to her head injury?
- [31:38]
C
So she was in her early adolescence when this terrible injury occurred. And she was working on the farm of a man who she later described as the worst man in the neighborhood. While working there, she was sent on an errand with the cook. They went to the local general store. And out from the fields runs this young, enslaved teen. He's being chased by an overseer. The different accounts that we have of this moment indicate that Tubman put herself in between that overseer and that young boy or young teenage boy who was running away at that time. The overseer picked up a heavy weight from the general store counter. Attempting to stop the boy, he threw it. Because Tubman had placed her body in between these two, the weight hit her. It actually damaged her skull. And she was terribly, terribly injured. This is one of the moments when Aramund Ta Ross was turning into the Harriet Tubman we know. Turning into that heroic figure who would risk her own safety for someone else's. But it's also a time when she was changed physiologically, psychologically. She ended up having what we would view now as a cognitive disability. She had a chronic illness. She had what scholars now think was a form of temporal lobe epilepsy. As a result of a traumatic brain injury, everything intensified inside her mind. She started having visions during the day. She started having seizures. And she started to have a much more intensely alive, psychological, spiritual sensibility. She felt that this sensibility was being formed around and through her relationship with God. Because she was a devout Christian. This intensification of her relationship with God is something that she would carry with her from that moment of adolescence into her young adulthood, into her entire life. And she felt that God was giving her messages. She followed those messages when she had hard decisions to make. But something certainly happened with that injury. Tubman was changed in that moment.
- [33:52]
A
I love that her life is such a beautiful illustration of this idea that when she asks for help, you know, in Harriet's case, she's asking for help from God, that help is sent. Not from, like, a booming voice from the sky. Not from a revolutionary change in her condition. Not in the form of the right person being elected. Not in the form of an army winning the war. That help comes from a tree appearing. And she experiences that as help. In her sort of moment of darkness. She experiences the appearance of a star in the heavens. As help sent to her. And what a beautiful way to experience life. Despite her circumstances that she could not change.
- [34:43]
C
Yes, and I so appreciate how you put that. Because Tubman was also looking for signs. But she was creating her own signs as she looked for them. So she was, in many ways, supplying herself with the signs she needed. Or the encouragement she needed to take an action, to be brave, to be bold, to make a move. She set up the psychological conditions that enabled her to see signs of hope. In places where other people might just say, oh, there's nothing here for me.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah, totally. I want to talk a little bit more about exactly what Harriet Tubman did. Because, you know, so often people know the name. They associate Harriet Tubman, Underground Railroad. They know that she helped people escape enslavement. And that's about the extent of what a lot of people know. Can you help us understand, maybe just with one or two examples of exactly what Harriet Tubman did?
- [35:40]
C
One of the first things she did was to recognize that slavery was wrong. And to use all of her kind of mental and physical abilities. To attempt to change that condition. First for herself. And simultaneously for her family. And then for everyone who was enslaved. So she came to think of this phrase, my people, as not just being her family. But being anyone who was enslaved. From the time of her adolescence, Sharon Hank Tubman, who was then still Amenta Ross. Was thinking proactively about how she could change her condition. She managed to negotiate with her owner. To allow her to hire out her own time. So that she could keep a little bit of those proceeds. And in doing this, she actually had to get a white person in her neighborhood to vouch for her. Which shows her another way that she accomplished her goals. Which was she was willing to talk with and to enlist and negotiate with whoever it would take to get the job done. So she was able to hire her own timeout as an older teenager and young woman. Which meant that she was able to keep a little bit of money. One of the first things she did with that money. Was to purchase a pair of oxen for herself. So that she could increase the amount of labor that she could do to earn more money. In addition to that she used her money to hire an attorney.
- [37:06]
A
Sharon.
- [37:07]
C
To investigate her family, because she thought that her owner had actually not given her mother freedom when legally she was entitled to it. Now, Tubman was right about that, it turns out. And if her mother had been freed when she was supposed to have been freed upon the death of the owner's father, things would have been very different for that entire family. So my response to your question is, first of all, what did Tubman do? Tubman was a smart negotiator. Tubman knew how to multiply her resources. This is all Tubman, the young woman. And then Tubman set off with her brothers in 1849 in an attempted escape. They had heard that their owners were probably going to try to sell them. So they started off trying to run away. Her brothers changed their mind along the way. We don't fully know the answer to the question why her brothers change their mind. Tubman comes back with them, but she decides to go off again. So as a woman alone, a younger woman alone, she managed to leave from Caroline County, Maryland, to make her way up north and eastward. She went through Delaware, we think, and she took herself to Philadelphia. She made her own escape alone. And this is relatively unusual for a woman to escape alone. Tubman did this. And once she got to Philadelphia, she didn't say, okay, now I'm here, I'm free. Time to live the free life. No, what she did was to get down on her knees and pray. Because she knew it would be wrong for her to be free. And everybody else left back in servitude. She prayed for God's help. And this is why I call her God's partner. Because in that moment, I talk about it as her sort of enlisting God in her mission. The way she thought of it was that this was God's mission, right? But I see her as enlisting God in her mission because she said in that prayer, she recalled later, which is how we have ascended this I am going back for my people, and will you help me? So Tublin's sort of telling God, look, this is how it's gonna be. Are you gonna step up? So God perhaps does step up. Heaven certainly sees it this way. And she goes back and she starts rescuing her relatives before she was even known by anyone on what we now think of as a loosely organized underground railroad. She was not a member of that network, yet she was somebody who just freed herself. Sharon. She freed herself. She was desperately sad about her family still back in slavery. And she went to work in the north to Earn money to fund her own rescue missions. Fast forward. For almost a decade of her life, she was a person on the ground who was masterminding these escapes. She was helping people who were already seeking their freedom to actually make it happen. She was going back and guiding them. She was sharing information with others. She was telling people about the secret routes. She helped probably around 70 to 80 people directly. By that, I mean going back to Maryland about 12, 13 times, helping people to escape. But indirectly, we can multiply that probably by two or three times to the hundreds. And that doesn't even include this big Civil War mission that she helped to plan and execute on the Combahee river, in which over 700 enslaved people were able to flee from these ricing plantations onto the Union gunboats and to then seize their freedom. So this is only Harriet Tubman's life until around her 50s. This is a young woman, Harriet Tubman.
- [40:38]
A
Yes. Yes. This is just scratching the surface. I once did just sort of like a rough calculation of, if you think about the 70 or 80 people that she helped free from enslavement, there's almost no chance that those 70 or 80 people didn't go on to help other people. Yeah, they absolutely wanted to free their own who were left behind.
- [40:57]
C
Yes.
- [40:57]
A
So when you multiply this out by the generations, there are probably tens of thousands of people alive in the United States today whose ancestors were directly impacted by the actions of Harriet Tubman. Just the descendants of those 700 people number in the potentially six figures.
- [41:20]
C
That's right. And that campaign was really important for really kind of bucking up the Union and showing, yes, we can execute this war. We can hit the Confederacy in a way that hurts.
- [41:35]
A
I even write about this in my book when I'm talking about Claudette Colvin, who says in a moment that she is on a bus in Montgomery and is trying to be forced off of the bus. She says she felt the hand of Sojourner Truth on one shoulder and the hand of Harriet Tubman on the other. And it was a little bit like that line from Hamilton. She felt like, history has its eyes on me. And so even though Claudette Colvin has no known direct connection to Harriet Tubman, the influence of Harriet Tubman on the rest of the United States, it's truly an incalculable impact.
- [42:15]
C
Yes. I mean, I like to think of this as a cultural heritage that we all share.
- [42:19]
A
Yes, yes, yes.
- [42:21]
C
Any of these historical figures whose lives we can look at and examine and think about, who can inspire us and offer us cautionary Tales, too. They belong to all of us. They have helped to make us who we are, and they can help to make us better in the future.
- [42:37]
A
That's right. That's right. I like to think of them as our community of ancestors.
- [42:42]
C
Yes.
- [42:43]
A
Harriet Tubman would want to have inspired all kinds of people.
- [42:48]
C
Oh, absolutely.
- [42:49]
A
And she knew better than anyone else that she could not go it alone, that she needed the help of the entire community to make the kind of change that she wanted. And she also would tell Americans, especially some governors in some places, that black history is American history.
- [43:08]
C
Oh, yes.
- [43:09]
A
That her contributions on an order of magnitude are in many cases far greater than the bold faced names we see in the text book. I mean, I could just keep going on here. You know exactly what I'm saying.
- [43:23]
C
I do, absolutely. Black history is also, of course, American history. How could it not be? Right? But also, Sharon, black history is always also interconnected with Euro American history, white history, indigenous history. You cannot disentangle these. No, you cannot. No. Harriet Tubman's life begins in a multiracial context. We cannot separate these things out.
- [43:47]
A
That's right. I would also love your take on this, that the history of enslavement in the United States is really, in many ways, white people's history. It is certainly this idea that, like, studying enslavement is something that is, quote, unquote, black history. No, no, no, no, no.
- [44:06]
C
You know, we're one country.
- [44:08]
A
Yes.
- [44:09]
C
Which means that we trace our lineage back to these early and very important, very kind of fundamental configurations of colonial and American society. I mean, look, slavery was one of those. We cannot deny it. It's all over our original documents for the founding of this country. We cannot deny it. And why should we want to? This is a part of our history. This is a part of who we are. And we are one country. And so, of course, the history of slavery is also the history of. Of white Americans and many other groups of people who live on these lands now. And in addition to that, something that Harriet Tubman speaks to, Harriet Jacobs, another formerly enslaved woman who wrote a very important narrative about her life, speaks to, and I spoke to it a moment ago less eloquently than they have. Black and white lives were and are intertwined. Slavery could not have functioned without enslavers. That's just the reality of the thing. And of course, while enslavers were the minority of the white population at the time, they were a minority with quite a lot of political power, economic power, cultural influence, and their needs, the needs of at first slaveholders across the colonies, but then after Revolutionary War, we're talking more about slaveholders in the South. Their needs were being supplied by Northern manufacturers, Northern businessmen, white men and women who were laborers in shoe factories, who were making shoes for enslaved people and so on. So you just cannot disentangle it. And I think it is just much wiser to accept that and to look as clearly as we can at the history and to see what can it teach us about our interconnections and about how we can do things better with the opportunities that we have in front of us. I love that.
- [46:05]
A
Thank you so much for giving me your time today. For your work, for the effort you put into your work. Not just your scholarly research, but also just like the talent that you bring to the world with your really beautiful writing and also just your warm and generous spirit. And I'm just, I'm glad to live in a world where you exist.
- [46:24]
C
Oh, Sharon. Oh my. I'm so touched by that. Thank you for having me. And thank you for really wonderful conversation. I enjoyed it so much.
- [46:34]
A
Thanks to Tiya Miles. You can get her book night flyer@bookshop.org or wherever you get your books. Be sure to read our weekly magazine@thepreamble.com, it's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. I'll see you again soon.
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