Growing Hope: What Depression-Era Gardens and Rainn Wilson Teach Us About Hard Times

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Preamble with Sharon McMahon

Episode: Growing Hope: What Depression-Era Gardens and Rainn Wilson Teach Us About Hard Times
Date: March 30, 2026
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guest: Rainn Wilson (actor, activist, and author)

---

Main Theme / Episode Purpose

This episode explores how individuals and communities build resilience and hope in difficult times, drawing lessons from Depression-era gardens and a conversation with Rainn Wilson (of "The Office") about fighting cynicism, finding meaning, and the necessity of spiritual and community revolutions. The episode combines historical reflection and contemporary wisdom to empower listeners to persist through personal and collective challenges.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Depression-Era Gardens as Models of Endurance

[03:53–11:23] Sharon McMahon’s Monologue

• Contextual Reflection: Sharon evokes the image of changing winds from "Mary Poppins" to set the emotional tone, noting, “You don’t always need a barometer to know when the wind turns. … The winds in the east have been up for a while now.”
• Historical Storytelling: She describes Detroit’s “thrift gardens,” created during the Great Depression so families could grow their own food:
  • Community and Inclusion: The gardens united diverse communities, described in the Detroit News as “a babble of tongues.”
  • Purposeful Structure: These gardens and their routines weren't quaint hobbies, but practical scaffolds for endurance in desperate times.
  • Insight: “A row of radishes couldn’t fix the economy, but it could fix dinner. The sunshine couldn’t put dollars into the bank, but it could stave off a depression...” ([07:14])
• Enduring Lessons: The gardens remind us that “hope is not a feeling we conjure. It is a habit we can practice.” ([09:38])
• Actionable Advice: Sharon encourages listeners to “choose a piece, however small, of the burden you can carry, and then structure your persistence so it does not depend on the adrenaline of headlines.” ([10:26])

---

2. Rainn Wilson on "The Office," Happiness, and Human Connection

Interview begins [13:12]

a. Reflections on "The Office"

• Rainn is not tired of talking about Dwight:
  • “I’m not tired of talking about Dwight, because when I interact with people, I see how much the show means to them. ... how much it soothed their anxiety.” ([13:59])
• Sharon likens "The Office" to “macaroni and cheese in your comfortable pajamas” and describes its ongoing intergenerational appeal. ([14:28])

Fun Moment:

• Dwight's famous line:
  • Sharon: “Which bear is best?”
  • Rainn: “Fact. Black bear is best. ... But really, have you ever seen a sun bear?” ([15:47])

b. "The Geography of Bliss" and Lessons on Happiness

[17:24–19:51]

• Origins: Show is inspired by Eric Weiner’s book, with a focus on seeking happiness globally.
• Production Challenges: They had to pivot locations due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, substituting Iceland and Bulgaria for Finland and Moldova.
• Intent: To contrast happiness and unhappiness in different societies.

c. Insights from International Experiences

• Iceland Episode: Rainn describes joining Icelandic "Viking Valkyrie" women for communal cold plunges in the Arctic Ocean:
  • “It was one of the most exciting, revitalizing and inspiring hours of my life.” ([20:16])
  • Research-backed: Notes scientific support for the benefits of cold water immersion, especially done communally.
  • Metaphor for Healing: “We could heal the entire world if we just did that every morning—gathered, held hands, sang... and went into the cold water.” ([21:22])
• Central Takeaway: Community and connection are the core of happiness and well-being, beyond individual wellness routines.
  • “We need to be in rooms with each other. ... Social media isn’t real community.” ([21:57])

d. The Loneliness Epidemic and Public Health

• Reference to Surgeon General:
  • Rainn recounts a conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy about the “loneliness epidemic” equating loneliness to “15 cigarettes a day” in health impact. ([23:11])
  • “Loneliness increases the risk of Alzheimer's greatly.” ([23:32])

---

3. Spiritual Roots of Societal Issues

[24:11–27:49]

• Plethora of Pandemics: Rainn discusses his book’s argument that many crises—mental health, climate, racism—are “spiritual pandemics” with roots in disconnection, not just politics or policy.
  • “We are so disconnected from planet Earth that humanity uses planet Earth like a giant ATM machine...” ([24:27])
• Limits of Legislation: “You can pass legislation all you want. That’s just putting a band-aid on a cancer.” ([25:38])
• Need for a Spiritual Revolution: Drawing on ancient spiritual traditions for personal and social transformation.
  • "There is a wealth of spiritual information and tools... we can utilize these tools on a collective level, for social transformation." ([27:39])

---

4. Embracing Hope, Fighting Cynicism

[33:56–39:13]

• Celebrating Joy vs. Cynicism:
  • Sharon: “Cynicism is the opposite of hope... If we embrace cynicism, then we can never become our best selves or our best country.” ([33:56])
  • Rainn shares the advice from his acting teacher Andre Gregory:
    • “‘Don’t do it. You can’t be cynical. If you’re cynical, they win.’ ... And every time I roll into pessimism... I remember his words.” ([35:51])
• Historical Reflection: The lost belief in world peace:
  • “We believed it was possible. And nowadays if you talk about world peace, people are like... they just roll their eyes.” ([37:23])
• Importance for Youth: “We need to keep that hope alive. ... We need to do it, especially those who work with young people...” ([37:56])

---

5. From Protest to Building Something New

[38:39–40:24]

• Sharon: “Posting about it on social media is not activism. That’s not changing anything.” ([39:09])
• Rainn quotes Buckminster Fuller:
  • “‘You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.’” ([39:15])
• Both highlight that while protest is vital, change requires us to “actually do something…Those are the successful change makers.” ([40:24])

---

6. Advice for Struggling Young People: The Spiritual Perspective

[41:01–43:02]

• Rainn shares his favorite quote from Father Teilhard de Chardin:
  • “We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ([41:30])
• Daily Practice: Describes how this perspective grounds him during morning meditation and helps him face anxiety, shifting his focus to “develop the qualities of my soul.”
• “If I am a spiritual being... how can I further develop my compassion, kindness, humility, honesty, openness, creativity, joy?” ([42:19])
• Mental Health Tip: “This shift in perspective…my day is infinitely better, and it helps make the world a better place.” ([42:51])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On hope as habit:

  • “…Hope is not a feeling we conjure. It is a habit we can practice.” — Sharon McMahon ([09:38])

• Detroit’s thrift gardens:

  • “A row of radishes couldn’t fix the economy, but it could fix dinner.” ([07:14])
  • “The badges, the ledgers, the inspections... were the scaffolding for endurance.” ([07:26])

• "The Office" & comfort:

  • “To me, the Office is like macaroni and cheese in your comfortable pajamas at the end of a really long day.” — Sharon McMahon ([14:28])

• On the loneliness epidemic:

  • “Being lonely is the equivalent of smoking like 15 cigarettes a day.” — Rainn Wilson ([23:14])

• On fighting cynicism:

  • “‘Don’t do it. You can’t be cynical. If you’re cynical, they win.’” — Rainn Wilson’s teacher, Andre Gregory ([35:55])
  • "We also have to believe in the power of the human spirit and how indomitable people are... We have to keep that hope alive." ([37:50])

• On protest and building new models:

  • “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” — Buckminster Fuller, quoted by Rainn Wilson ([39:15])

• On spiritual perspective:

  • “We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” — Teilhard de Chardin, quoted by Rainn Wilson ([41:30])

---

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:53–11:23 | Sharon’s monologue: Depression-era gardens, hope as habit | | 13:12 | Rainn Wilson interview begins | | 14:47 | Bear trivia and "The Office" comfort | | 17:24 | "Geography of Bliss" concept and connections | | 20:16 | Icelandic cold plunges and lesson on happiness | | 23:11 | Loneliness as health crisis; conversation with Surgeon General| | 24:11 | Spiritual roots of societal issues and need for spiritual revolution| | 33:56 | Seven Pillars of a Spiritual Revolution (fighting cynicism) | | 38:39 | From protest to building the new | | 41:01 | Advice for young people; spiritual perspective and practice | | 43:15 | Rainn's message to "Office" fans and episode sign-off |

---

Tone and Style

Sharon mixes historical narrative with warmth, encouragement, and intellectual engagement. Rainn Wilson is candid, philosophical, and sometimes humorous, seamlessly weaving personal stories with broader social insight. The tone is earnest, hopeful, and motivational, urging listeners to seek connection, resist cynicism, and build tangible hope—starting with small, repeatable habits.

---

For listeners seeking practical wisdom, humor, and moral clarity in uncertain times, this episode offers grounded inspiration and actionable advice.

Transcript

[Sharon McMahon]

Stop missing out on opportunities. That starts with not missing calls because a missed call is money out the door. Quo helps you and your team share one business number, reply faster, and stay on top of every customer conversation so you never miss an opportunity to connect with your customers. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. The smarter way to run your business communications. Quo works wherever you are, right from an app on your phone or computer and you can keep your existing number. You can add teammates or new numbers in minutes, sync your CRM and set up smart routing. As your business grows, everything lives in one clean view. Calls, texts, voicemails, transcripts and contacts so your whole team has full context and can respond faster. And Quo's built in AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries, and highlights next steps so nothing falls through the cracks. Make this the month where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com Sharon that's Q-U O.com Sharon Quo no missed calls, no missed customers if your routine only works when you have extra time, it's probably not going to work. That's why Merit Beauty has become such a staple for me. I've been using it daily because it actually fits into real life. Merit is a minimalist beauty brand that makes elevated makeup and skin care designed to help you look put together in minutes. The Minimalist seriously streamlines everything. It replaces both foundation and concealer so I'm not layering product after product. It gives quick, natural coverage and blends in seconds. Then I tap on the flesh balm for a healthy glow. No brushes, no fuss. And on days when I skip makeup entirely, the Great Skin Serum hydrates and plumps so my skin still looks polished. Everything is clean, vegan, cruelty free and made with skin Care Forward ingredients that leave your skin looking better even after you wash it off. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering our listeners their signature Makeup bag with your first order at Merit Beauty.com that's me. R I T Beauty.com to get your free signature makeup bag with your first order. Merit Beauty.com welcome to the Preamble Podcast. Today's episode will feature one of my favorite guests of all time. As a huge fan of the Office talking at Rainn Wilson Dwight Schrute if you didn't know was so much fun, that's ahead. But first, a message from me that I hope will lift you up and inspire you to continue to do the next needed thing. I'm Sharon McMahon and this is the Preamble Podcast. You don't always need a barometer to know when the wind turns. Bert, the lovable chimney sweep chalk artist, one man band in Mary Poppins, simply senses that something is changing. Winds in the east, Mist coming in, he sings, looking across the roof lines of turn of the century London. Like something is brewing and bout to begin. The camera pushes in tight on his face. Can't put me finger on what lies in store. The small crowd of onlookers exchange puzzled glances, but I fear what's to happen, I'll happen before. And while I hesitate to point out the nearly prophetic foreshadowing brought to us by a beloved fictional character, the winds in the east have been up for a while now. When I don't know what to make of that, I go rummaging in older weather. On a scrubby municipal field in 1931, someone nailed two signs to a wooden shed. Detroit Thrift Gardens, one read, and beneath it, no work after 8pm Women in threadbare coats and boys with school issued hoes assembled along the rows of cabbages. The committee came in hats and with clipboards, crouching to inspect what pushed from the earth, murmuring about beetles and moving on. The Great Depression isn't just a handy name to refer to a time of economic unrest. It was also the national mood. With paychecks evaporating and pantries dangerously thin, officials in Detroit did something stubborn and simple. They created thrift gardens, plots carved out of vacant tracts of land ringed by houses and utility poles where families could plant vegetables with city issued seeds and tools. By the 1932 growing season, the Thrift garden project stretched like a patchwork across the city, 6,600 plots on 400 acres. Gardeners pin numbered badges to their coats, signed pledges not to sell anything they grew, and to keep track of their bounty, they took turns on the night watch. The city provided families with fertilizer, seeds for plants that could handle the Michigan cold, and workshops on how to can what they grew. The Detroit News noted that in one sample of gardeners, Germans, Hungarians and Austrians worked alongside Mexicans, Ukrainians, Serbians, Russians and Black Americans. This was no time to worry about whether your neighboring grower spoke perfect English. The mist was coming in. Remember? The newspaper described it as a babble of tongues. People of all types were welcomed as equals into the program. Buried in a city memo is a line that reads like a benediction. Fresh air, sunlight and the visible results of their own work have altered the morale of many gardeners, the badges, the ledgers, the inspections, the manure and the hoes. They weren't bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake. They were the scaffolding for endurance. A row of radishes couldn't fix the economy, but it could fix dinner. The sunshine couldn't put dollars into the bank, but it could stave off a depression that ventured into the territory of great New York City gritted out the same logic. By 1935, there were 5,000 gardens stitched across the boroughs. A promise ran in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. The person who wishes to raise his own vegetables will be furnished the land, tools, seeds and instruction in the art of agriculture. The city was telling its tired residents, we can't stop the wind, but we can stand in it with you. Detroit and New York were building repeatable, recognizable shapes. Neighbors over isolation, organizational systems that kept them moving. Logging their harvest made progress measurable when little else was. Stories like these get flattened by time. It's too easy to make gardening adorable. But the no work after 8pm requirement wasn't a quaint be sure to kick your feet up edict. It was an acknowledgment that exhausted people needed to line up the next day for relief checks or to search for non existent jobs. When I read through the files now, I can see the days in Detroit or New York. A shed door sticks in the humidity. A mother's tears slip silently down her cheeks. A child's crooked planting row is corrected by a neighbor. It's not cute. It's the work of people who were experiencing a Great Depression. There is a temptation in times like these to believe that our exhaustion disqualifies us from usefulness. We imagine people who did harder things and endured more for longer, and we imagined they were made of tougher stuff. But they weren't. They were as weary and as ordinary as we are. The difference is that they built structures outside of themselves to carry them forward. The garden plots didn't demand heroism, only habit. And that is still available to each one of us today. They offer us a reminder. Not everything. Something not someday. Dinner tonight. If you are hunting for hope this week and struggling to make it appear on command, you're not alone. But hope is not a feeling we conjure. It is a habit we can practice. The thrift gardens were not designed to produce inspiration. They produce food. The inspiration followed because people were doing shared, regular, visible things outside, in the fresh air and the sunlight. We can smirk at that, or we can admit it might be exactly what we need. Gardens are not a universal solvent. But what I am offering is the pattern beneath them. Choose a piece, however small, of the burden you can carry, and then structure your persistence so it does not depend on the adrenaline of headlines. If gun violence in schools is what you cannot ignore, set a reminder on your phone to make phone calls every month. If immigration courts are the thing you cannot look away from, show up with bottled water on hearing days. Maybe Burt was right. What's to happen has happened before, and if we cannot still the wind, we can decide what to plant in it and with whom. Next, my interview with Rainn Wilson. We talk about his shift from atheism to spirituality and how he fights cynicism and despair. Nothing hits like home cooking and HelloFresh makes it easy to do more of it this year with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. Lately we've been trying to have dinner be more of a moment instead of a scramble, and HelloFresh has honestly helped with that. On a busy weeknight, it's nice knowing we can pull together something that feels thoughtful without spending hours in the kitchen. There are over 100 recipes to choose from every week, so whether we're in the mood for something cozy, something globally inspired, or a meal that just feels bright in the middle of winter, there's always a great option. And portions are generous, which I appreciate. They've also got more than 35 high protein recipes each week including Mediterranean and GLP1 friendly options. And the quality really stands out. Sustainably sourced seafood, 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken, and even grass fed steak. Plus now there's three times the seafood with no upcharge because honestly, when dinner tastes this good, nothing hits like home cooking. Go to hellofresh.com preamble10fm to get 10 free meals and a free Zwilling knife. A $144.99 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.

[Susie Welch]

Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C life. Because when you're living a B or B life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming you. People think okay, an A life is not available to me. But there is away. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming you Wherever you get your podcasts, listen up.

[Sharon McMahon]

Magnesium Breakthrough by Bioptimizers has been getting a lot of buzz lately. Most magnesium supplements only use one or two forms, but Magnesium Breakthrough combines seven different forms of magnesium along with key CO factors that help your body actually absorb and use it. That means your body can get more of the benefits magnesium has to offer. People are noticing benefits like deeper, more restful sleep, feeling calmer, better workout recovery, and even improved digestion. It's designed to support your body in multiple ways without any promises about treating or curing specific conditions, just helping you feel your best. Here's the Try it. Track your sleep. Pay attention to how you feel. See if you wake up more refreshed with a 365 day, no questions asked money back guarantee. There's truly zero risk. You have a full year. To see if it works for you, go to buyoptimizers.com Sharon and use my code Sharon to get 15% off any order. Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping great again. Here's my interview with actor and activist Rainn Wilson. Thank you for being here. It's a treat.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sharon McMahon.

[Sharon McMahon]

You pronounced my name more correctly than President George W. Bush did.

[Rainn Wilson]

What did he say? McMurran? McMahon.

[Sharon McMahon]

Something along those lines. It has a silent hoe in the middle, right? There's a silent hoe in the middle of McMahon. And so it kind of throws you for a loop a little bit when you realize the hoe is silent.

[Rainn Wilson]

Is it appropriate for me to say we all kind of have a silent hoe in us?

[Sharon McMahon]

I mean, some of us more than others.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes. What a pleasure. I'm such a big fan and happy to be on your show.

[Sharon McMahon]

Oh, thank you.

[Rainn Wilson]

Thank you for having me.

[Sharon McMahon]

Oh, truly, the pleasure is mine. You are best known for playing Dwight on the Office, of course. Are you tired of talking about Dwight yet, or is he still very beloved in your heart?

[Rainn Wilson]

It's a mixed bag. I'll be really honest. I'm not tired of talking about Dwight yet, because when I interact with people, I see how much the show means to them.

[Sharon McMahon]

Totally.

[Rainn Wilson]

So it's a heart and a gut thing. People that are Office fans, they'd say how much it impacted their lives, how much it brought their family together, how much it soothed their anxiety. And so I'm just so grateful to be how many television shows are a balm to people's lives?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes, that's absolutely correct. I would say the same thing. To me, the Office is like macaroni and cheese in your comfortable pajamas at the end of a really long day. That's how it feels to me. I'VE watched every episode probably a minimum of five to ten times. Except for Scott's tots. That episode's unacceptable.

[Rainn Wilson]

Is it too hard to stomach?

[Sharon McMahon]

Is it poor children? Is it too awkward, those poor children being denied an education? I just. As a teacher, I can't handle it. It's too much. I'll watch all the other episodes, but of course, the Office would be nothing without Dwight. And it really does mean so much to people. And it means so much to a variety of generations. You know, like the people like me who watched it when it was first airing. There's my generation and then there's like all of the gen zers that have just discovered it and are watching it in streaming and are like spending eight hours a day binging it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Sharon McMahon]

There's not many shows that are like that.

[Rainn Wilson]

It is intergenerational in a sense. Occasionally you meet people such as yourselves that was watching it on appointment television on the NBC network.

[Sharon McMahon]

The NBC Network.

[Rainn Wilson]

Thursdays at 8 or 9 o' clock or whenever the hell it aired.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yep. I do have to ask one quick question, and I want to talk about something that you've been working on lately. But I do have to ask which bear is best?

[Rainn Wilson]

Fact. Black bear is best. How is that? I did that for the fans. But really, in all honesty, have you ever seen a sun bear?

[Sharon McMahon]

Yes. Sun bears are super cool.

[Rainn Wilson]

They're so cool, it's hardly even a bear. It hardly qualifies as a bear, although there is a certain earth sign ness. But they are delightful little creatures and they don't get enough attention. I mean, koala bears and grizzly bears.

[Sharon McMahon]

What about the sun bear or the spirit bear? Have you seen the spirit bears of British Columbia?

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay, that's not a thing.

[Sharon McMahon]

You're making that up. I'm not making it up. You're going to have to Google it. Spirit bears live only in British Columbia and they are this community of bears that has like, just existed in its own little community, like getting real fat on the salmon that runs through the rivers, et cetera. And they are white black bears. Genetically, they are black bears, but their fur is white.

[Rainn Wilson]

I googled it. It is a black bear that is white. There are about 500 fully white individual ones and they live on the islands up there. Wow. I am a bear authority and I learned something new. I feel like this is my reason and my purpose for being on your podcast. Thank you for teaching me about bears. Sharon. Is there nothing that you do not know?

[Sharon McMahon]

I do not know how to speak old German. I don't know about Bel Schnickel. I'm not an authority on no faux Amish holidays. That's not my. That's not my thing.

[Rainn Wilson]

There's still time. You're young. You're young, Sharon.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, when I saw that you were doing a TV show called the Geography of Bliss, I was like, is that based on the 2008 Eric Weiner book that I read in 2008? And now you need to answer the question for everybody else.

[Rainn Wilson]

No, it's not a total coincidence. Total coincidence.

[Sharon McMahon]

Completely coincidental.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm so impressed that you read that book when it came out, although it was considered bestseller. And Eric Weiner is an executive producer on the show. And it is the spirit and curiosity and DNA of his book that runs throughout our show. The Geography of Bliss. And an awesome title as well.

[Sharon McMahon]

It totally is. I loved the premise of the book. So I was like, if we take the general concept of this book, which I really enjoyed, and then we just add in rain, this is going to be something that I will greatly enjoy. And I did. It's a delightful show.

[Rainn Wilson]

Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much. It was a joy to do as well. It really was.

[Sharon McMahon]

When you were conceptualizing this show with the producers and everybody who worked on this show, how did you decide where to go and what the activities that you were going to engage in? Because I'm wondering, like, how do you get to Bulgaria, find this woman, and make, like, the Elderberry scene? Like, how does that come to be?

[Rainn Wilson]

First of all, what we originally planned and what ended up on the screen are completely different. So we were going to go to Finland and Moldova, and then a pesky and horrendous and tragic thing happened, which is the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And all of a sudden, Finland was on a front line and Moldova was on a different kind of a front line. And we were like, oh, we can't really tell a story over by a war zone about happiness, because that's just not right.

[Sharon McMahon]

Totally.

[Rainn Wilson]

So we shifted from Finland to Iceland, which has similar stories and has beautiful visuals, and to Bulgaria from Moldova, because Iceland is among the most happy of the countries and Bulgaria is among the most unhappy. And we wanted to learn from going to both. What is it that we can glean from both of those? So do you find storylines that suit the overall story that you want to tell? And, you know, you want to create a package of, like, five wonderful acts that take you on a journey?

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, one of the reasons that you talk about you wanted to do this project, you wanted to go on these journeys is for your own personal spiritual journey or your own personal exploration of, like, what makes somebody happy. And this notion of where you are or where you live can impact your sense of happiness. I would love to hear some of your personal takeaways.

[Rainn Wilson]

One of the most powerful experiences I had was in Iceland with these incredible Viking Valkyrie women that gather several times a week to do cold plunges in the Arctic Ocean, which is about 57 degrees. And they gather and they dance and they sing and they breathe and they meditate and they hold hands and dozens of them then walk into the water up to their necks and they're breathing and singing. And then they come out and they dance with a big boombox. And it was one of the most exciting, revitalizing and inspiring hours of my life. And when you do the research, you look at like Andrew Huberman or whatever about cold immersion therapy, it's really astonishing the positive impact that it has on slow dopamine release. But then doing it communally and creating this tribe of women, doing it with such abandon and with the arts and with meditation and breathing and holding hands, camaraderie, that was really powerful. And I kind of feel like we could heal the entire world if we just did that every morning we gathered, held hands, sang, revealed our bodies in our swimsuits, even though we're all pudgy and weird looking, and went into the cold water. So that was one incredibly powerful experience. But the takeaway from all of it was really pretty basic, which is that happiness, bliss, joy, well, being comes from community and connection. That's it. That's it. You know, you can do meditation, you can do cold plunges, you can exercise, you can connect with nature. Those are all crucial and lovely, but really where you saw the most vital and exciting and inspiring connections, where people gathered in community. And that's what oftentimes we're missing in contemporary America. Or we're fooled into thinking that we have a community on social media because we have a lot of friends and likes and thumbs ups and hearts on our posts. But that's not real community. We need to be in rooms with each other. And that's another reason why Covid was so devastating to us culturally.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, I recently spoke to this doctor who said that community and relationships are as important to anybody's health as anything else you do. He believes that it is just as much a marker of health as how often you're eating broccoli or how often you're playing tennis, that how often are you socializing predicts longevity better than anything else.

[Rainn Wilson]

I just had a conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy, the Surgeon General.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And he's recently announced that we're in the middle of a loneliness epidemic and that the health impacts of loneliness. Being lonely is the equivalent of smoking like 15 cigarettes a day. That's what they say. And it just takes years off your life. I also was listening to a podcast about Alzheimer's and they were talking about how loneliness increases the risk of Alzheimer's greatly. In the future, when we look back on this time, we'll really be uncovering the mental health epidemic, the loneliness epidemic, and the diseases of despair that I describe in my book and really unearth some very sobering realities.

[Sharon McMahon]

Yeah, totally. I was just going to mention this thing from your book which you refer to as sort of these deaths of despair, these ideas that there are unique things that plague modern society. And I wondered if you could expand on that a little bit.

[Rainn Wilson]

So I have a chapter early on in the book called A Plethora of Pandemics, and I talk about the COVID pandemic, and then I reference the fact that there are a dozen other pandemics that we don't think of as a pandemic, but that's how they should be viewed. The mental health epidemic is one of them. Climate change I view as a kind of pandemic with the roots of its disease being spiritual, not political. Because we are so disconnected from planet Earth that humanity uses planet Earth like a giant ATM machine where we just withdraw, you know, oil, gold, copper. We're almost out of copper. And we just suck these out in the most destructive ways. And then with our waste, we just dump our waste right back into planet Earth. And all of these pandemics, including diseases of despair, racism, sexism, income inequality, these are not some kind of lefty woke jargon. Like they're very real, but their roots are. Again, and this is a part of the thesis of my book. There's more to it than that. But part of the thesis of my book is that the roots of these issues are spiritual and need to be addressed as such and need to be healed with love and compassion and forgiveness and with building of community and turning from being self centered to being other centered. You can pass legislation all you want. That's just putting band aid on a cancer. And that's kind of what we're doing in Western civilization right now.

[Sharon McMahon]

And you argue in your book too, that that's one of the reasons we need a spiritual revolution in whatever form that would Take for you that these pandemics can only be addressed via some of these spiritual avenues that we can be like, stop being racist, period. Sign it into law. And yes, we should have laws that make it so that you can't discriminate and, you know, things of that nature. Of course, it doesn't mean we should abandon legislation, but we can't address the pandemic of racism or sexism, for example, without addressing the spiritual component. It's exactly like what you were saying.

[Rainn Wilson]

And I think racism is a great example. Like the Voting Rights law was passed in 1965, making sure that black people were always eligible to vote and that there weren't any restrictions on race. It's such an important law. And all the laws that we've passed to end Jim Crow have been crucial in our country's development, but they're not enough. And we see that today with an increase in kind of polarization, that to work on racism, we need to go back to the roots of some of the deepest religious and spiritual teachings that have been around since the dawn of time. We need to go back to the life of Jesus Christ. We need to go to the root of what the Buddha taught or what's in the Bhagavad Gita or the Vedas or Upanishads. And another one of my theses that sounds kind of dirty, but theses of my book is that there is a wealth of spiritual information and tools that is there from, you know, 5,000 BC onwards that we can harness and put into practice on both a personal level, which is how most people consider the spiritual journeys on a personal level. And that's important. But we can also utilize these tools on a collective level, on a social level, for social transformation.

[Sharon McMahon]

More with Rainn Wilson when we come back. Today's episode is brought to you by alma. The biggest challenge in therapy isn't just showing up. It's finding the right therapist in the first place. Many people deal with uncertainty around fit, insurance and cost, and that's where ALMA can help. ALMA is dedicated to simplifying access to high quality, affordable mental health care. They offer a nationwide directory of over 20,000 diverse therapists that you can browse without creating an account. Alma's filters make it easy to find therapists who take your insurance and match your preferences, whether that's therapeutic style, identity or specific needs. With 99% of therapists accepting insurance, people who use ALMA to find in network care save an average of 80% on session costs. And their free insurance cost estimator lets you know exactly what you'll pay upfront. A year from today, who do you want to be? The right therapist can help you get there. A year from today isn't that far away. Get started [e-mail] preamble. That's helloalma.com P R E A M

[Range Rover Sport Advertiser]

B L E. You've probably heard it said. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And that idea applies not just to words, but to the way you move through life. It's about setting an example, taking the lead, and adapting to whatever comes your way. That's why people love the Range Rover Sport. It's a vehicle that embodies that mindset, blending power, poise and performance. With its distinctly British design and exquisite interiors, it's immediately clear this isn't just a car, it's a statement. Inside. Innovations like the cabin air purification system and active noise cancellation create a level of comfort and control that feels effortless. And with seven terrain modes and a choice of powerful engines, including a plug in hybrid with an estimated estimated range of 53 miles, the range Rover Sport balances raw power with refinement. Dynamic, agile and truly instinctive, it reflects a confident, intentional way of driving and living. Build your Range Rover [e-mail] USSport looking

[Jenny Bird Advertiser]

for jewelry that feels as good as it looks? Jenny Bird delivers modern designs that are comfortable, easy to wear, and effortlessly versatile. Every piece makes you feel instantly on trend without trying too hard. Need to send a gift they'll be sure to love? Jenny Bird ships fast and the packaging is thoughtful too. Jenny Bird isn't just jewelry, it's your new favorite style. Essential. Explore more at jenny-bird.com and get 20% off your first purchase using code ONTREND20

[Sharon McMahon]

more now of my interview with Rainn Wilson. One of the things that I really related to in your book was about the death of your dad, and my dad has passed away as well. And you talked about how it seems impossible to you that life could come to an end because brain activity ceased, that it simply doesn't compute, that it all adds up to nothing.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's my favorite topic in the world. It really is. I have a chapter on God in the book called the Notorious God where I try and kind of explode and reinspire and reinvigorate conversations about the divine and death and how to live. It is the chapter you're referring to, which I frame with talking about the passing of my father, which was incredibly heartbreaking. And there's a big cultural conversation between you know, the atheist elements and the theist ones. And I tried being an atheist for several years when I was younger. I had rejected the faith of my youth, which was the Baha' I faith, and I had kind of turned my back on it and, you know, entered kind of secular New York city in the 90s and going to acting school and being a bohemian, and most of my friends were atheists, and I tried it on. And then as I was on kind of a spiritual journey and learning about faith and the soul and spirituality and whatnot, I realized that, you know, there's two options. There's getting into God. I'm not sure if this is what you do on your podcast, but why not?

[Sharon McMahon]

Why not? What do we have to lose?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, well, thousands of listeners.

[Sharon McMahon]

They'll love hearing from you. They'll love hearing your thoughts about this. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

So either everything is a random assemblage of molecules and atoms and energy that was kind of sparked 7 billion years ago, but may have preexisted that, and it's all random and it's bouncing around, and we happened to have formed out of the animal soup and the animal zoo on planet Earth and have advanced consciousness, and that's just a trick and a miracle of evolution. And then when we die, it's lights out, and the consciousness goes out like a light bulb. That's one option. And the other option is that we have some kind of eternal element to us, a soul, that there's some aspect of our consciousness, of our essential beingness, our light, that is simply residing in these human meat suits for 80 or 90 years, if we're lucky, and then continues on its divine journey, whatever that may be. And different religious mythologies, as it were, point to different possibilities of this kind of a journey. But all religious faiths talk about how the material is kind of illusory and temporary and not something to attach oneself to, but to continue on the journey, wherever that goes into eternity, beyond time and space. So as I pondered these questions, life's biggest possible questions, about God and the soul and the meaning of life and death, to me, it was incomprehensible that life was meaningless and then it was over, but that there had to be something more. And as I've dug deeper and deeper into that realm, I have come away firmly believing that to be true.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know, I loved the chapter that you call the Seven Pillars of a Spiritual Revolution, because a number of the seven pillars of a spiritual revolution. I was like, those are the exact principles that I think we need to harness for government. That we need to harness for activism, that we need to harness for sort of systemic societal change. And I love the phrase celebrate joy and fight cynicism, because cynicism is the opposite of hope in many ways. Cynicism is what makes it impossible for us to have positive change in society, to have, you know, a fair justice system or to have a system that provides equal opportunity for everybody. If we embrace cynicism, then we can never become, you know, sort of our best selves as an individual, but also our best country. We can't be the best country if we are spending all of our time embracing cynicism. And I wonder what that means to you personally, because I'm viewing this as a big, like, systemic issue of how we can't afford to the luxury of hopelessness in the United States. We must maintain that sense of hope and joy if we want to progress as a country. But I wonder what that means to you personally.

[Rainn Wilson]

So I finished the book, and I take the reader on a. You know, I say, I'm throwing a lot of spiritual spaghetti at the wall and we'll see what sticks. And I take folks on a journey through a lot of big ideas about God and death and the soul and religion and the meaning of life and all of that nonsense. And then I kind of finished it, and I'd finished my outline that I had given my publisher, and then I realized, like, wow, this is just too depressing. So I need to leave people with some takeaways. And the seven Pillars of a Spiritual Revolution is just that, takeaways that people can put into practice that are tangible and relatable and that anyone can do. You don't need to be a fancy celebrity like myself in order to engage. And one of them that you point out is foster joy and squash cynicism. And I tell the story in there of this acting teacher that I had named Andre Gregory, and he's the subject of the famous film My Dinner with Andre. And a very famous director and teacher and actor in his own right. And he would meet with his students and have tea. And I had tea with him one day, and he's like, so, Rain, how you doing? And I was like, well, Andre, I'm just feeling kind of depressed these days. I'm feeling hopeless. And I just. I don't know, I'm just overwhelmed and washed up, and I don't know what to even think anymore. And he reached out and grabbed my arm hard, and he looked into my eyes and he said, don't do it. You can't be Cynical. You can't be pessimistic. If you're cynical, they win. If you're pessimistic, they win. They want you to be cynical. They want you to be pessimistic. I don't know exactly who the they was he was talking about, but the forces of. Not change, the forces of corruption, of greed that want things to stay the same, that profit by things staying the same, want everyone to be pessimistic and eye rolling. But I remember the 70s when people talked about world peace. Beauty contestants would say, I want world peace. And government officials would talk about world peace and scientists like Carl Sagan would talk about world peace. We believed it was possible. And nowadays if you talk about world peace, people are like, oh my God, they just roll their eyes.

[Susie Welch]

Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

And I stumbled out of his apartment and that really changed my life. And every time I roll into pessimism and cynicism, I remember his words and I'm like, if I stay pessimistic and cynical, then I'm not going to write this book, number one. I'm not going to do a travel show about happiness, because what's the point? And we have to be realistic. We have to live in the real world, but we also have to believe in the power of the human spirit and how indomitable people are and determined. And we can overcome tremendous adversity and rise to our better angels and transform things. And we have to keep that hope alive. And we have to do it, especially those who work with young people in this mental health crisis and in this divided and terrible and anxious and fraught modern world. We need to keep that spark of hope alive.

[Sharon McMahon]

I totally agree with you. Somebody once told me, and I've never forgotten this, that speaking of the proverbial they, that if they can't stop you from doing it, they will try to keep you from enjoying it. That really hit me like a ton of bricks. And so the trick is to not let them.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's great.

[Sharon McMahon]

I also loved one of the other pillars of this spiritual revolution, which is don't just protest. Build something new. That it is not enough to be like, well, I hate it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yep.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's not enough to just be like, well, that's dumb. It has to be replaced with something else.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Sharon McMahon]

Just railing against the machine doesn't actually improve anything. You actually have to do something about it. And I would add my own caveat, which is posting about it on social media is not activism.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's not.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's not changing anything.

[Rainn Wilson]

Keyboard activists, slacktivists, as they Call them. I have this quote right here I keep on my desk, and it's in my book by Buckminster Fuller. You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. And that goes hand in hand with what we're talking about. We live in a culture of protest. Protest is very important. There wouldn't be a civil rights movement without protest. But it only takes you so far. If you simply protest with some angry tweets and a march or two and a coffee house argument or two, and then you're done. You're exactly right that it's much harder to build something. It's very hard to do. It's really hard to go and try and create a grassroots movement or to get together with people and just even, like, clean up a local park. It's challenging, but it's so, so rewarding, and it's so necessary. And we have to, especially young folk, need to get out of that culture of protest and go do something. It's very hard. Good luck.

[Sharon McMahon]

It is. But if you look at people who have been change makers throughout history, they didn't just tell us what was wrong with something. They cast a vision for the future that we wanted to believe in. Yeah, that people wanted to follow that. They said, I believe in what you believe in. Let's build that thing together. Those are the successful change makers. All right, final takeaway. If you could impart one message to a college student who is struggling, perhaps as you did when you were a young man who went to New York, what advice would you give them?

[Rainn Wilson]

That's a tough one. But I'm going to go with something that gives me great solace and meaning in my life. When I do my morning meditation and prayer, and I sit on a little bench outside in my yard, and I watch the hummingbirds and the beautiful flowers, and I take some deep breaths and try and quiet my mind and center myself. I remember this, my favorite quote of all time from Father Teilhard de Chardin, the Jesuit priest who said, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And when I witness myself in that regard as a spiritual being having a human experience, I'm a little shard of the divine in the body of this Rainn Wilson weirdo. And I've got 80 or 90 years in my meat suit before that falls away and I continue my journey. And if I am a spiritual being, which I am, what do I get to explore in that regard? How can I develop the qualities of my soul, of my spirit. How can I further develop my compassion, kindness, humility, honesty, openness, creativity, joy. These qualities of the divine that I can exercise, like working out in a gym and put my focus on them and on gratitude. This shift in perspective away from kind of the discomfort of being a human being, like, oh, I'm hungry or I need to poop or I've got a zoom meeting in half an hour and my knee hurts and all of that stuff. I can shift away from that into a more spiritually connected place. My day is infinitely better and it helps with my mental health and my anxiety and it also helps make the world a better place.

[Sharon McMahon]

Beautifully said and I really enjoyed reading Soul Boom. And thank you for Dwight. Everybody wants me to tell you that the office is so meaningful to them and I know you know that, but we also need to thank you for Dwight.

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh well, on behalf of Dwight, you're welcome. Idiots. I really appreciate it. You bring such wonderful light and knowledge to the world. I'm grateful to be a part of the Sharon McMahon universe.

[Sharon McMahon]

Thank you. That was one of my favorites. Thanks to Rainn Wilson for joining us and thank you so much for listening. It has truly been my pleasure. Be sure to read our newsletter@the preamble.com it's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope and follow me on social media. Sharon says so I've been your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. Thank you for listening.

[Brian from UnitedHealthcare]

I'm Brian. I work at UnitedHealthcare.

[Jenny Bird Advertiser]

So Brian, why do you care?

[Brian from UnitedHealthcare]

I care because I don't want to leave anybody behind. I oversee one of the biggest resource centers in UnitedHealthcare. I see people walking in my office every day just like my parents. They have no idea about the healthcare. I feel like they are my uncles, aunties. I treated people like family. I'm Brian and I'm committed to care.