← The Preamble
The Preamble
If Court Orders Don’t Matter, Nothing Does, Banning Books, and How to Find Hope
00:38:38
A government that asks the public to respect the law must model respect for the law. Plus, how one of the most banned authors in the country is fighting back, and how you can too. And is the Republican Party of John McCain and Mitt Romney gone forever?
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- [00:00]
Sharon McMahon
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- [01:10]
Adam Kinzinger
We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana.
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Sharon McMahon
And it was so easy. Too easy.
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Adam Kinzinger
Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.
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Sharon McMahon
Yeah, you're right.
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Adam Kinzinger
Case closed.
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Jodi Picoult
Buy your car today on Carvana.
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Sharon McMahon
Delivery fees may apply. 96 federal court orders one month one state that's what Chief Judge Patrick J. Schiltz of the U.S. district Court in Minnesota, a Republican appointee, placed on the public record an appendix identifying 96 court orders violated by ICE across 74 cases since January 1, with a warning that the tally is likely understating the magnitude of the problem. In an order excoriating the Trump administration for failing to comply with the court's requirement to hold either a bond hearing for a petitioner or release them. Judge Schiltz wrote that the list of 96 ignored orders, quote, should give pause to anyone, no matter his or her political beliefs, who cares about the rule of law. He added that, quote, ice has likely violated more court orders than some federal agencies have violated in their entire existence. A country can argue immigration policy all day long, but a country cannot remain a constitutional republic when an executive agency treats court orders as optional. That is the civic emergency being laid bare in Minnesota, and it is a warning the rest of the country must heed, Americans are being offered a false choice, safety or rights, as if constitutional limits belong in calm waters while stormy weather earns the government a free pass, as though law and order means obedience from citizens and exceptions for the government. More on that in a moment. But first, welcome to the Preamble podcast. This week, my thoughts on what's happening in Minnesota and the federal government's refusal to listen to court orders. And ahead, I'll talk with bestselling author Jodi Picoult. She's sold tens of millions of books, but is now the second most banned author in the country. She'll tell us why school boards and book banning groups are targeting her and what she's doing about it. And later, I'll speak with former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He tells us whether or not he thinks the Republican Party of the past, the party of John McCain and Mitt Romney, is ever coming back. I'm Sharon McMahon, and this is the Preamble Podcast. Real Law and order binds everyone, including those in power Court orders are one of the ways democracies prove that power has limits. Judges cannot enforce their own rulings agencies do. When an agency treats an order as optional, it is breaking the mechanism that keeps authority legitimate. Ignoring court orders damage is far more than the people whose names speak sit on the dockets. The damage spreads into every future demand the government makes of its citizens, hollowing out the very authority. Law enforcement depends on the public's willingness to comply because the system has agreed upon limits. A government that asks the public to respect the law must model respect for the law. This is not a partisan complaint. These structures have held the world's oldest democracy, however imperfectly, in place through administrations from right to left. The rule of law is not contrived via a shared mood. It is held together by the daily decision to treat certain words as binding, released, and joined, produce, appear. When those words stop meaning what they say, they teach citizens a terrible lesson. The rules are not real, and whoever can produce the largest show of force will carry the day. If law and order is to be regained, the Department of Homeland Security and ICE should issue a compliance protocol that functions as an operational checklist. Protocol has to mean more than a memo. It must include a chain of responsibility for every court order, who receives it, who confirms it, who executes it, and what supervisor certifies completion in writing. The public deserves weekly reporting, orders received, time to compliance, and explanations attached to any delays. Judge Schiltz has already given the nation a ledger of judicial orders. It's time for DHS to respond with a ledger of executive compliance. If the agency is doing its job, transparency will strengthen it. If it is not, transparency will force a correction. Second, the DOJ should conduct an independent review of the January violations documented by the court and publish a public summary with findings and corrective actions. Independence matters because credibility matters. It also serves to protect the many public servants who do follow the rules and do not want their work or their safety undermined by a culture of impunity. A review that produces a public account builds confidence that the government itself remains governable. Third, Congress should use its oversight authority to ensure court order compliance. Lawmakers can debate immigration policies, staffing levels and budgets, but none of those debates can substitute for the baseline requirements that the executive branch obey. The judiciary agencies can litigate an appeal, but agencies are must follow orders while litigation proceeds. That is quite literally the rule of law in action. Federal agencies cannot break the law to enforce the law. Legitimacy comes from restraint, consistency, and fidelity to the institutions that hold power to account. When law and order becomes a slogan detached from law or decase, the vacuum gets filled with cynicism, vigilantism, conspiracy and violence. People stop cooperating. Communities harden. The public square becomes more dangerous, not less. When courts lose their power to command compliance, democracy loses one of its quiet miracles, the ability to restrain power using words on a page. Law and order stands or falls on obeying the courts. Minnesota has put that truth in stark relief. The rest of the country should pay attention because once court orders become optional, nothing else is secure. I wrote this op ed, which was originally published in the Minnesota Star Tribune on January 31, 2026. Coming up, my conversation with best selling author Jodi Picoult on why her books are some of the most banned in the country and what banning books does to our kids. Lately, I've been trying to make my downtime actually feel meaningful instead of just scrolling. So I started treating Masterclass like a little daily reset. And it's become such a good ritual. The class that hooked me was Esther Perel's course on strengthening relationships. Went into it thinking it would just give broad advice, but her breakdown of communication patterns was so practical that I ended up using one of her techniques in a real conversation the next day. It gave me this surprising confidence boost, like, oh, I can actually get better at this. And that's the thing about Masterclass. It really does make you better. With plans starting at just $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes from the world's best experts. The lessons are short and easy to squeeze in, and with audio mode, you can turn your commute into a mini classroom. You can watch anywhere on your phone, laptop, even your tv. And if you're traveling, you can download classes to learn offline. No wonder 88% of members say Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at MasterClass.com/sharon. That's 15% off at MasterClass.com Sharon MasterClass.com Sharon Life can feel overwhelming, but you don't have to go through it alone.
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Jodi Picoult
On my podcast from the Heart with.
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Sharon McMahon
Rachel Braan, I share openly and vulnerably about everything life brings us and what we can learn by living with our hearts a little bit more open. Every Friday, a new episode brings you a new story with topics on self, care, motherhood, healing, and more.
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Jodi Picoult
You are enough just the way you are. This podcast is a reminder of that.
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Sharon McMahon
Follow and listen to from the Heart with Rachel Braan wherever you get your podcasts. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. The biggest challenge in therapy isn't just showing up, it's finding the right therapist in the first place. Many people deal with uncertainty around fit insurance and cost, and that's where ALMA can help. ALMA is dedicated to simplifying access to high quality, affordable mental health care. They offer a nationwide directory of over 20 diverse therapists that you can browse without creating an account. Alma's filters make it easy to find therapists who take your insurance and match your preferences, whether that's therapeutic style, identity or specific needs. With 99% of therapists accepting insurance, people who use ALMA to find in network care save an average of 80% on session costs, and their free insurance cost estimator lets you know exactly what you'll pay upfront. A year from today, who do you want to be? The right therapist can help you get there. A year from today isn't that far away. Get started now@helloalma.com preamble that's helloalma.com P R E A M B L E I'm joined now by Jodi Picoult. This is one of the biggest things I wanted to ask you, Jodi. Why do people want to ban your books so much? People love your books. Your books are wildly popular, you're one of the best selling authors in the United States, and yet that has somehow made you a target for banning. Why?
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Jodi Picoult
So you're right. I'm very fortunate to have an incredible base of fans and to sell, you know Tons of books. I also. The flip side of that is I am the second most banned author in America at this moment, after John Green. And 19 Minutes was the most banned book between 2023 and 2024. I had books challenged in the past before, but it was after 2020 when I started not being able to keep up with them. And that coincided with the rise of Moms for Liberty. Getting all these seats at the table at school boards. And in Martin County, Florida, One parent pulled 92 books off the shelf. Twenty of them were mine. And she said, the reason is because I write porn. Here is a news flash for you. I don't write porn. I'm so sorry. You know, many of my books don't even have a kiss in them. They do, however, have issues like racism and gun rights and abortion rights and gay rights and other issues that I think really force kids to think for themselves, and that is terrifying to a certain subset of Americans right now. And so what they're doing is couching their criticisms of books by saying that these are harmful to children. And, you know, the mom who actually banned those, those 92 books admitted she had never read any of my books. That's what really blows my mind. That the people who are able to challenge books, to remove them from the hands of students who might need them are doing so without even bothering to read the books that they're challenging. That is absolutely astounding to me. But that result, I think, of these very poorly worded parental rights laws that have passed in certain states, particularly like Florida and Texas, where anyone can make an objection. And because educators now are facing threats like fines and losing teaching licenses and even felonies, they preemptively pull books, you know, which is like another form of censorship that nobody needs. We know that the vast majority of books being pulled are bipoc and LGBTQ content or bipoc and LGBTQ authors. And these parents who insist that the books are harming kids. That's not true. We actually know there have been tons of studies done. Kids who are exposed to lives and mindsets different from their own. That helps create empathy. Kids who feel marginalized and see themselves in the pages of a book that makes them feel less alone. There's a reason that so many kids turn to books. And I will also say, you know, look, I'm a parent. My kids are all grown, but I used to regulate what they read. And there's nothing wrong with a parent doing that for their own kid. The problem comes when that parent decides what is appropriate for anyone Else's children.
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Sharon McMahon
One of the things that I think is so interesting about this is that book bans actually create a nation of permission seekers rather than a nation of critical thinkers. Yes. If you ask any of these parents, do you want your kids to think critically? They would all say yes. Nobody wants their children to grow up being simply a permission seeker instead of a critical thinker. And I don't think they realize that the downstream effects of interfering with access to information on the written page. And again, we are not talking about giving Gardner's Playboy. Nobody is talking about that. That's not what is happening. We're talking about a high schooler having access to a novel that has a theme that nobody wishes existed. We all wish that date rape was not an issue and that we didn't need to include those scenes in novels and that they were not people's real lives.
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Jodi Picoult
Right.
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Sharon McMahon
That would be the preferred outcome of not having to include those scenes. But the idea that they cannot be confronted with information on a page that they are in fact confronted with on their phones and that they are in fact confronted with in the hallways and in their interpersonal relationships, it really strikes me as such a short sighted view of what adolescents are capable of grappling with and need to grapple with.
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Jodi Picoult
It's pearl clutching. Right. It's latching onto something and saying, this is going to be the downfall of society. Instead of really addressing the real problems that are facing teens today and giving them the resources to deal with an increasingly complicated world, what they're doing is robbing them of those resources.
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Sharon McMahon
One of the things that I keep hammering home, and I would love to hear your take on this, is that libraries are not museums of acceptable ideas.
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Jodi Picoult
Sure.
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Sharon McMahon
If a library is done correctly, you're not going to like a whole lot of what is in there.
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Jodi Picoult
Right.
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Sharon McMahon
And that's actually the point.
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Jodi Picoult
Yeah. You know, I'm pretty liberal and pretty vocal about it, and I get asked that a lot. Well, what if there was a book in there that was anti lgbtq? What if someone wanted to carry Mein Kampf in your library? You know, how do you feel about that? When you endorse free speech, you have to acknowledge that there's gonna be some speech you don't like. Now, I will say there is a difference between free speech and hate speech.
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Sharon McMahon
It's also true that it's such a slippery slope that if you want to make libraries into a museum of acceptable ideas, then we're quickly going to start banning people's religious texts which have many unacceptable ideas. By today's standards. Right.
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Jodi Picoult
Who gets to decide what's acceptable? Is it the people who are in power? Because frankly, you know, history is always written by the winners. But that doesn't mean that it's right.
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Sharon McMahon
What would you say to people who say things like, your book isn't banned. They can still go get it at the store. Pretty sure you're still a best selling author and I can find it on Amazon. It's just not available for impressionable children. What would you say to people who feel like your books are not actually being banned?
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Jodi Picoult
A book ban is a book ban, even if it's temporary, even if it is at a school library versus a public library, even if it is available on Amazon. There is a reason that school libraries were created for a lot of kids. That is their only access to literature. And it could be because they can't afford a book. It could be because they live in a rural area like I do, and they don't have the resources to get to a public library. But they do go to school every day. Anytime you remove a book from the hands of a child, it is a ban. And the other part of your question is, you know, oh, you're a bestselling author. Stop complaining. This must make your sales go up. I am in a very lucky camp in that my sales, the bulk of them do not come from school libraries. But there are a lot of young adult authors, particularly the ones who are bipoc or lgbtq, for whom that is the bulk of their sales and their livelihoods have been really threatened by book bans.
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Sharon McMahon
Yeah, the list of titles is, in many ways, as you alluded to, it's kind of nonsensical. It is people who have not actually ever read the books, and they predominantly feature bipoc characters and characters who are members of the LGBTQ community. And on the nonfiction side, which I know a little bit more about just working in this space, they're books that feature non white characters. They are books like, who is Sonia Sotomayor? Yeah, that's not even a joke. Like, she's a Latina Supreme Court justice, but because she's in this camp of sort of DEI air quotes. DEI figures. Anybody who's not white is in a DEI camp. According to some people, that is on the list of something that is suspicious. We even saw this recently when the United States Naval Academy removed hundreds of titles from their library shelves, almost all of which had to do with race or were written by black authors. Again, all under the guise of dei. And it bears repeating that people who are attending the United States Naval Academy are adults. Nobody is forcibly subjecting them to read these books at the library. They would be accessing them by their own free will. And again, they're adults.
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Jodi Picoult
Right.
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Sharon McMahon
What's really in your mind? What's really behind this?
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Jodi Picoult
Oh, we know that the way you control a nation is by controlling what it reads. We have seen that playbook before. Right. Happen with the Nazis. And this was indeed the front stack in a long hallway of this administration's attempt to basically remove First Amendment rights. You know, so look at two years ago in Florida, after they started banning books, they started revising textbooks. So there's a second grade history textbook that didn't want any mention of Rosa Parks race in it. So now the reason she moves to the front of the bus is because she doesn't feel good about sitting in the back of the bus. No mention of any racism, of civil rights, nothing. And to me, there's this sanitization of America that happens when you get rid of all this stuff. There's the belief that the only stories that are worth telling and are worth hearing are a certain kind. And that is really dangerous because it marginalizes the majority of Americans, actually. And to me, that is actually the end game for the Trump administration.
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Sharon McMahon
It's simpler and faster to control the supply of information than to raise citizens who can think for themselves.
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Jodi Picoult
Right.
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Sharon McMahon
That's just simply true. But why do you think nations throughout history, why do you think the United States today so greatly seeks to restrict access to information? Why do they want an assault on the First Amendment? What is driving that?
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Jodi Picoult
If you have the ability to think critically, you also have the ability to see lies, to call out injustices, and to have firm footing on which to fight back. And a nation that is veering towards fascism, towards a dictator, is not looking for citizens that are engaged and that are thoughtful and that are contributing to democracy. A nation that is veering towards fascism and a dictator wants blind obedience and acceptance. And if you don't know, literally don't know what is really going on, then you can't question. It's meant to keep everyone in line. And that's why the First Amendment is so important. The ability to be able to speak your mind in this country, the ability to be able to call out what you think is an inequity or an injustice, is so important because it has been the groundwork for civil rights, for equality between the sexes. You know, it sparked so many quiet revolutions that needed to happen for parody.
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Sharon McMahon
The First Amendment protects Your right to free expression, it doesn't protect your right to be free from offense.
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Jodi Picoult
That's a great way to put it.
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Sharon McMahon
That's the byproduct of freedom, is living amongst people with whom you disagree, encountering ideas that you find reprehensible. If you are only encountering ideas that you agree with, you are not living in a free society. Period.
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Jodi Picoult
Right.
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Sharon McMahon
And power that is used on your behalf in ways that you agree with today is power that can and will be wielded against you in the very near future. And that is what history shows us happens every single time. And so we must be very, very careful about what we are asking for.
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Jodi Picoult
Yeah.
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Sharon McMahon
What about somebody who's listening to this and is like, Sharon, Jodi, I agree with you. We shouldn't be taking the books off the shelves. Cosine, like, I agree. What are we supposed to do?
- [24:20]
Jodi Picoult
The first thing you have to do, you touched upon and it's to not sit there. If someone says they're not really book bounds, argue it. The other thing that you can do is to run for school board. Look, nobody wants to do it, but frankly, we have to. It is true that Moms for Liberty has lost a lot of seats that they gained in 2020, but there are still a lot of them there. And more importantly, they are very loud. And what we need are people on public school boards who are willing to stand up for the freedom to read just as much as these people are trying to take it away. If you cannot run for school board, go to your local school board meetings and make sure that you are a voice for the freedom to read and for the freedom of expression. If you have a little free library, pack that thing with banned books. Make sure that everyone who takes one is reading a book that someone said they shouldn't be reading. Particularly if you live in a state where book bans are rampant. And if you don't have a little free library, now might be a good time to start one. Start band book club. Use your social media to speak out about this and above all, be loud about this. Because we know that the vast majority of Americans do not want book bans. But we are catering to a very vocal minority, so we have to be louder than they are.
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Sharon McMahon
We can't have tyranny of the minority, which is exactly what is happening in some communities. There are some publishers that are fighting back. Penguin Random House has really been at the front lines of fighting back against book bans and other publishers too. And there are other organizations like PEN America who track book Bans who are nonprofit entities who help file lawsuits against book bans, who support authors. Those are entities that people can donate to. But I think you bring up such a great point that civic engagement also includes our engagement with our neighbors.
- [26:09]
Jodi Picoult
Yes.
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Sharon McMahon
It includes engagement with our communities, talking about these issues, having calm, rational conversations about like, that's interesting. I get why you want to protect kids. I want to protect kids from pedophiles, which is why we should release the Epstein files and we should put all of these people in jail and we should stop protecting multinational sex traffickers. Just a thought. I too want to protect children. But I do think having access to the freedom of information is an important part of developing children. It's an important part of developing their critical thinking skills. You can never learn to critically think if you are never confronted with information with which you disagree.
- [26:46]
Jodi Picoult
You're absolutely right.
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Sharon McMahon
So I love what you had to say, that this is a multi pronged approach. It's working in our own homes, our own families, our own communities, our own, you know, houses of worship, our own social networks. And also there's a governmental component involved here because this is a fundamental American freedom. Book banning has never led us anywhere worth going. And children need access to literature in their school libraries.
- [27:12]
Jodi Picoult
And let me also, I'm going to give another plug for Pen America. You're right. If you can't do anything, but you have a few extra dollars this month. Donations are great. I'm one of the trustees. Full disclosure. But they have been fundamental in tracking the book bans.
- [27:28]
Sharon McMahon
Yes.
- [27:29]
Jodi Picoult
And making sure that communities have the information that they need in real time, what's being banned and why and when. They also have action plans on their website. You can actually go to the Pan America website and find ways that you and your community can make a difference regarding book bounds. So I definitely refer people back there as well. They're a great organization and they're working really hard on behalf of not only authors right now, but readers.
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Sharon McMahon
Jodi, thank you for who you are in the world. Thank you for bringing stories to the world that people deeply connect with and enjoy reading. And also thank you for being on the right side of history.
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Jodi Picoult
Thank you so much for being right there with me.
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Sharon McMahon
Thank you to Jodi Pico for joining me. Next I'll talk to former Congressman Adam Kinzinger about the future of the Republican Party and his advice on what you can do now to stay connected and have hope.
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Jodi Picoult
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- [28:30]
Sharon McMahon
Reach out to for questions or free continuing education?
- [28:34]
Jodi Picoult
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- [29:19]
Sharon McMahon
When news first breaks, it's everywhere.
- [29:21]
Jodi Picoult
In the headlines, on tv, all over social media, in your push notifications. It's like a storm, but the coverage leaves you feeling unsatisfied.
- [29:33]
Sharon McMahon
Well, that's where we come in. I'm Meghna chakrabarti, host of OnPoint. We ask the questions that still need answers. We analyze the meaning behind the news and why it matters to your life. We equip you with the knowledge you.
- [29:47]
Jodi Picoult
Need to face the next news storm. OnPoint is clarity when it counts. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:03]
Sharon McMahon
I recently spoke with former Republican Congressman Adam Kinziger. Here is part of that conversation. It seems as though we are living in a prolonged period of unprecedented times.
- [30:16]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, absolutely. It's like, what's the Irish thing? It's like, may you live in interesting times. I always thought that was cool, but now I don't really want that anymore.
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Sharon McMahon
No, make government boring again, Adam. Yeah, that's my new motto is like let's go back to stupid boring committee hearings and Bill Markups.
- [30:33]
Adam Kinzinger
Government was never meant to have this much attention. Never.
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Sharon McMahon
No. No. Government also, guess what? Was never meant to be corrupt. So that's also something I'd like to return to. I'd like to return to a pre government corruption situation. I know that on the top of a lot of people's minds are the Epstein files. The three and a half million pages. I'm sure you have not had a chance to read every single one of them. But I think what a lot of people are wondering is what has happened that has led us to the place where nobody has gotten in trouble for any of this. How did we even get here?
- [31:11]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I mean, look, here's the deal. So Epstein dies in jail. You know, did he kill himself? I think it's more than likely he did. But regardless. And then Kind of the far right decided they're going to take the bad things about Epstein and they're going to pin that on Democrats so that Epstein files to them, becomes a substitute for Democrats. And if you remember, they have this thing where they'd always called Democrats pedophiles, and that was what this is all related to. So all of a sudden they run on this. Donald Trump makes this a big issue, and then it's the dog that caught the car. And so now they have to put this stuff out. But what they're going to obviously do, because it is not what they were suggesting, where it's every Democrat you've ever heard of that went to Epstein island, it's more or less Republicans, with a few exceptions. And so now what they're trying to do is to, I think, overwhelm with information, kind of overwhelm with scandal, so that people just say, like, you know what, whatever. It's mostly Republicans on the Epstein list. And of course, this administration is not going to do anything about that.
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Sharon McMahon
And also, if there are Democrats on the Epstein list, go to jail.
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Jodi Picoult
Yeah, all of you go to jail.
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Sharon McMahon
Who cares what letter is behind your name? Everyone should go to jail. I don't care if it's Dolly Parton. As much as it would pain me, she should go to jail, too. The idea that depravity belongs to one party is certainly not borne out by facts.
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Adam Kinzinger
And this is the difference between where the Democrats are now and where the Republicans are. When I call the GOP a cult, I don't do it as just some, like, random way to, you know, let's hit them and call them a cult. It's the reality that everybody, to some extent, and it's unfortunate, but we all do it. We find our identity and our political affiliation, some of our identity. This has become a life for many on the MAGA side. And so the idea that you would throw another MAGA in jail is just crazy. They're all in this together, whereas the Democrats are like, yeah, if one of us is particularly involved in pedophilia but violating the law, they should go to jail.
- [33:21]
Sharon McMahon
You know, you were a Republican for a very long time and, you know, I would imagine viewed yourself as more of a traditional small government type Republican. Is that party gone forever? Is the party of John McCain and Mitt Romney? Is that coming back? Can we get that back somehow? Can we get the party of George W. Bush? Even if you disagreed with his opinions, can we resurrect, you know, a less corrupt version of a political party?
- [33:51]
Adam Kinzinger
Is it ever coming back? Yes, someday. Right. Is it coming back soon? No. The reason I say someday is, I mean, if you look over the arc of 250 years of American history, you know, you've seen the Democrats be everything. You've seen Republicans be everything. So each party, because right now, obviously, we only have two, they kind of morph and move. So, yes, inevitably, the GOP will someday come back to, like, what we remember in terms of just, I guess, like, respect or doing politics as long as the democracy survives. But is that going to be anytime soon? I don't think so. I think it has been so infected with. And nationalism is the wrong term because nationalism in and of itself is not what this is. It's been corrupted with conspiracy theories. It's been corrupted with hate. I mean, all the stuff you see that comes out of the GOP now generally is related to a dislike of minorities or the browning of America. And I think that party is gone for a while, and I think it behooves the Democratic Party if the Democrats want to be, I think an undefeatable majority is to welcome those in the center or center right, recognize that you can have this. I mean, I don't even agree with my wife on everything. Right. You're going to have disagreements in your family, but what do they say? It's much better to be inside the tent peeing out than outside peeing in.
- [35:19]
Sharon McMahon
I. I think the idea that we have moved and that this is, I think, especially true of sort of the online left. We've moved into a position of requiring absolute purity in adherence to a spec set of beliefs. And if you don't believe the following. Whatever. Pick your list of topics. If you don't believe those, you're dead to me. You're a fascist. You're whatever it is. Even though what you might have is a difference of opinion, the idea that we would have to agree with somebody else 100% of the time is ridiculous because I live with a household full of people with whom I disagree. You don't think I have 12 arguments per day with my middle schooler? I mean, give me a break. This whole idea of, like, we have to agree on, on everything is not how politics has ever gotten anything done. Yeah.
- [36:09]
Adam Kinzinger
And the dangerous thing about it is Democrats are not where the GOP is now. Okay? And I hope it never gets there. But I can look back to what was happening in the Republican Party and really happened since the whole time I was in. Right. The Tea party wave in 2010, you started to have this Growing group of people that did not allow for you to have any independent thought. I actually would always joke because I said, when I went to Washington, I always had my supporters come up and they'd put their arm around me and say, go be your own guy. Don't do what the leaders tell you to do. And then when I got there, they're like, why are you being your own guy? You should be doing what the Tea Party leaders are telling you to do. The problem is that eventually can lead to a situation where somebody, I hate to call them this, but somebody is charismatic as Trump. He's not charismatic to me, but the many he is comes along and demands the same thing, and the party would then be preconditioned. Listen, also, it's really boring to agree with everybody on everything.
- [37:11]
Sharon McMahon
So many people are listening to this right now, and they're like, oh, my God, this whole thing is like a dumpster fire inside a train wreck inside a nuclear weapon. I don't even know what to do about it. What should the average American who's just at home listening to this, who hears what you're saying, they're like, listen, I agree with everything you're saying. What am I supposed to do about it? What would you say to them?
- [37:33]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, look, we live in a time where we feel like we need to be making a difference at every moment. And I understand that. I mean, this is something I carry all the time, too. The reality is our moment to have the biggest impact is elections. Right? We wish it was right now. I wish the election was tomorrow. It's not. We do have an ability to speak out. Look at what's happening when people show up on the streets in March, the no Kings protest. Look at what's happening when people show up in Minneapolis to defend their neighbors just by having a voice. You're part of a growing loud megaphone, and that is essential. The administration pretends like they don't listen to you. They do. That's why they're scared. That's why yesterday Donald Trump said he wants to nationalize the election, and today the White House came out and said, no, no, he didn't really mean it. Because they listen, they hear the pushback. So that matters. The other thing I'm going to say, so, you know, what is that voice? Obviously, social media, good writing to your congressmen and women, good. Even though may not make a difference, but it's good because it's part of that. The most important thing I'll tell you, though, is that burden that we all carry on Our shoulders right now, right? Just drop it. Because we are in a fight against a group of people that get so excited by chaos. Chaos is like a line of cocaine to them. They love it. You and I get exhausted by chaos. And so we're already at a bit of a disadvantage because the crazier gets. You know, how many people do you know that have already just given up, Right? They're like, I'm tired of it. Right? That's what we can't have. So the best thing you can do, I think, to be part of this fight is recognize. Can't do it alone, but we can't do it without you. But also take time for yourself. Take a deep breath. Take that weight off your shoulder. Because if you get exhausted or depressed or downtrodden or people see anger and misery in your face, you're going to do more damage or you're not going to be part of the fight. The best thing we can do is take a deep breath. When I used to clean up at Sunday school, they'd always say I hated it. They'd say, many hands make light work means everybody grab your chair, right? But that's true. We're all in this together. Take the burden off your shoulder and stay engaged, because if you get disengaged and exhausted, then you're not helping at all.
- [40:00]
Sharon McMahon
That's a great point. You can also see how this type of principle that you're talking about works in military combat situations as well, like you are familiar with. You don't send one person out to fly every plane. You don't send one person out to be on the front lines 24 hours a day. Everyone has a role to play, and everybody has to go out and do their job and come back and take a rest. And then it becomes a relay in which you can tap in another person to do an important part of the job.
- [40:32]
Adam Kinzinger
When I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, I never once felt like if I wasn't there, we would not be able to succeed in our mission. But I also never once felt like my job was not important and an important part of that. I think that's a beautiful way to put it, what you just did.
- [40:51]
Sharon McMahon
Exactly. We all have an important role to play. But our role is not the only one. Our thanks to Representative Kinzinger. If you'd like to submit a question for me to answer on a future episode, head to thepreamble.com podcast. We'd love to hear from you there. And be sure to read our weekly magazine at the preamble.com, it's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. If you enjoyed this show, please, like, share and subscribe. These things help podcasters out so much. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is is Craig Thompson. I'll see you again soon.