Make Magic with Brad Meltzer

Summary

Here's Where It Gets Interesting: "Make Magic with Brad Meltzer"

Release Date: March 10, 2025
Host: Sharon McMahon
Guest: Brad Meltzer

---

Introduction to Brad Meltzer and His Work

In this engaging episode of "Here's Where It Gets Interesting," host Sharon McMahon welcomes her good friend and prolific author, Brad Meltzer. Renowned for his ability to intertwine history with thrilling narratives, Meltzer discusses his latest projects, offering listeners a glimpse into his creative process and the inspirations behind his books.

Exploring Brad Meltzer’s Latest Projects

Brad Meltzer delves into his recent works, particularly highlighting "Make Magic" and "JFK Conspiracy." He shares insights into his writing routine, humorously addressing the seemingly endless stream of projects he juggles.

Brad Meltzer [03:10]: "Every time I talk to him, I'm like, are you just sitting at your house writing books all day?"

"Make Magic": A Commencement Address Turned Bestseller

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Meltzer's book "Make Magic," which originated from a powerful commencement address delivered by his co-author, Tanya Moseley. Moseley recounts the unexpected viral success of her speech, which emphasized empathy and kindness.

Tanya Moseley [15:01]: "If you really want to change the world, unleash your kindness."

The duo explains how this speech resonated deeply with audiences, leading to overwhelming demand for a written version. They transformed the address into an inspiring art book aimed at fostering empathy and kindness in daily life.

Conceptualizing Magic in Life and Leadership

Moseley elaborates on the theme of magic as a metaphor for creating memorable and impactful experiences. Drawing parallels between magic tricks and life's challenges, she emphasizes the importance of transforming fear into empathy.

Tanya Moseley [13:22]: "The hard part of showing empathy is just thinking that you are more empathetic."

The Art of Making History Engaging

Brad Meltzer and Tanya Moseley discuss their collaborative approach to writing history-infused thrillers. They focus on making historical narratives as captivating as modern thrillers, ensuring that readers are both educated and entertained.

Brad Meltzer [36:54]: "You have a really fantastic way, you and Josh, of writing stories from history in a way that feels like you're reading a thriller novel where you are just like, I gotta know what's gonna happen."

Deep Dive into “JFK Conspiracy”

The conversation takes a thrilling turn as Meltzer introduces "JFK Conspiracy," an installment in the Meltzer-Mensch conspiracy series. The book explores a lesser-known assassination plot against JFK, intertwining real historical events with suspenseful fiction.

Tanya Moseley [32:18]: "What I love about it, you know, we all know Lee Harvey Oswald and the big plot that kills JFK, of course, but this is a plot before that..."

Moseley highlights the intricate relationship between JFK and Jackie Kennedy, portraying Jackie as a complex and resilient figure who actively shaped her legacy.

Tanya Moseley [40:21]: "She's a member of the press, actually, when she started, she was a reporter back in her younger days."

Reflections on Empathy and Kindness in Today’s Society

A recurring theme in the episode is the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in a world often dominated by negativity and conflict. Moseley shares personal anecdotes illustrating how small acts of kindness can have profound impacts.

Tanya Moseley [22:26]: "We have to fight ... to bring out the empathetic, beautiful side of ourselves."

Meltzer adds to this discussion by examining the disconnect between society's desire for a kinder world and the prevalent culture of takedowns and negativity.

Brad Meltzer [20:38]: "What do you think about this disconnect between what we feel like we want? You know, like we want smarter, kinder, more empathetic, genuine world, and yet we love the takedowns."

Anecdotes and Personal Stories: Magic and Empathy in Action

Moseley recounts a heartwarming story involving her daughter and comedian Seth Meyers, demonstrating how humor and unexpected moments can teach valuable life lessons.

Tanya Moseley [06:02]: "...and he said, is your daughter home tomorrow morning? He said, yeah, he says, I'm coming over for brunch."

These personal stories underscore the episode's emphasis on creating magical moments through empathy and genuine connections.

Reflections on Fame, Safety, and the American Dream

The dialogue shifts to a critique of the modern American Dream, juxtaposing the allure of fame, beauty, and power with the authentic kindness exemplified by everyday heroes. Moseley reflects on her own experiences of hardship and the profound impact of simple acts of mercy.

Tanya Moseley [44:55]: "And this woman was showing us. And when you were telling that story, it's funny, I never saw celebrity or fame as safety. I always associated safety with what Mercy was doing, was kindness."

They discuss how historical figures like Jackie Kennedy and JFK serve as mirrors reflecting society's evolving values and fears.

Brad Meltzer [43:07]: "The siren song of celebrity and money and fame and power... represents safety... the human desire for safety."

Conclusion: Inspiring Readers through History and Kindness

As the episode wraps up, Meltzer and Moseley emphasize the power of storytelling in inspiring empathy and kindness. They advocate for a nuanced understanding of historical figures, urging readers to look beyond surface-level narratives to appreciate the complexities of human nature.

Tanya Moseley [49:20]: "If you want to feel good, pick up Make Magic and just read any page in there."

Meltzer encourages listeners to explore their books to gain deeper insights into historical conspiracies and the enduring legacy of iconic figures like Jackie Kennedy.

Brad Meltzer [50:05]: "If you love history, it's just a slice into the Kennedy life that you've never seen..."

---

Notable Quotes

• Brad Meltzer [03:10]: "Every time I talk to him, I'm like, are you just sitting at your house writing books all day?"
• Tanya Moseley [15:01]: "If you really want to change the world, unleash your kindness."
• Tanya Moseley [13:22]: "The hard part of showing empathy is just thinking that you are more empathetic."
• Brad Meltzer [36:54]: "You have a really fantastic way... of writing stories from history in a way that feels like you're reading a thriller novel..."
• Brad Meltzer [20:38]: "What do you think about this disconnect between what we feel like we want? ... and yet we love the takedowns."
• Tanya Moseley [22:26]: "We have to fight ... to bring out the empathetic, beautiful side of ourselves."
• Tanya Moseley [44:55]: "I always associated safety with what Mercy was doing, was kindness."
• Tanya Moseley [49:20]: "If you want to feel good, pick up Make Magic and just read any page in there."

---

Final Thoughts

"Make Magic with Brad Meltzer" is a compelling episode that blends historical intrigue with heartfelt discussions on empathy and kindness. Through personal stories and insightful analysis, Meltzer and Moseley inspire listeners to seek magic in everyday moments and to foster a more compassionate society.

For those eager to delve deeper into these themes, Brad Meltzer's books, "Make Magic" and "JFK Conspiracy," are must-reads that promise both intellectual stimulation and emotional resonance.

Transcript

[Sharon McMahon]

When President Obama awarded Fresh Air host Terry Gross the National Humanities Medal, he praised how her interviews pushed public figures to reveal personal motivations behind extraordinary lives. And that's exactly what Fresh Air from NPR delivers every day. Deep, thought provoking conversations with some of the most fascinating voices of our time. I've always been amazed by the way Fresh Air dives beyond the headlines. Whether it's a conversation with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson or a revealing interview with Selena Gomez, or a deep dive into culture with Billie Eilish, Terry Gross and co host Tanya Moseley, bring out stories you won't hear anywhere else. With an archive spanning decades and Fresh Air plus offering curated interviews that connect past conversations to today's biggest issues, this show is a must listen. If you love insightful discussions about politics, music, fashion and culture, Fresh Air is the one daily podcast you can't miss. Tune in to Fresh Air from NPR to hear some of the most insightful interviews anywhere, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brad Meltzer]

Are you currently taking multiple supplements a day? Well, this isn't a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of those things, and then some at a fraction of the price. And bonus, it tastes great. Flu season brings a lot of challenges, especially if you have kids in school like I do, from coughs and sore throats to feeling rundown and fatigue. But the good news is there is a way to support your system naturally and to give yourself a fighting chance this season. And if you're sick of having to buy a million different supplements and you don't know what's in it and you're not sure what to do, you will love the taste and convenience of Groons. There's eight gummies in each little daily snack pack because you can't fit the amount of nutrients they do into just one gummy.

[Sharon McMahon]

It's a fun little treat.

[Brad Meltzer]

Generic multivitamins have like seven to nine vitamins in them. Groons has 20 plus vitamins and minerals and 60 plus whole food ingredients. Grooms ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications and the ingredients in Groons can yield a 41% increase in healthy gut bacteria, a 53% reduction in risk of mild cognitive impairment, a 75% reduction in immunity, damaging free radicals, and 91% thicker hair and nails and improved skin health.

[Sharon McMahon]

You wanted a supplement you could enjoy.

[Brad Meltzer]

This isn't a chore, it's something you.

[Sharon McMahon]

Can look forward to.

[Brad Meltzer]

Don't wait for the flu to strike. Take control of your health today with Gruns vitamins. Your immune system will thank you.

[Sharon McMahon]

Go to Groons.

[Brad Meltzer]

Co. That's G R U N S. Co. And use code. Interesting.

[Sharon McMahon]

Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today.

[Brad Meltzer]

My guest is my good friend Brad Meltzer, who just keeps on writing books.

[Sharon McMahon]

Every time I talk to him, I'm.

[Brad Meltzer]

Like, are you just sitting at your house writing books all day?

[Sharon McMahon]

Apparently, the answer is yes.

[Brad Meltzer]

He has a couple of new projects out.

[Sharon McMahon]

One called the JFK Conspiracy, which is not about Lee Harvey Oswald, is about.

[Brad Meltzer]

Another plot to assassinate jfk, but also a book that I really think you're going to love so much called Make Magic.

[Sharon McMahon]

So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting, Brad.

[Brad Meltzer]

There are not very many people that I invite back to this show over and over again. So you are in, like, a special club now, this specialist club.

[Tanya Moseley]

Do we get, like, jackets like Saturday Night Live? We should get like.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You can't do.

[Tanya Moseley]

When you get a five pins. A pin is good. Yeah, a pin.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah, the five pin. Thanks for coming back.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So good to be back.

[Brad Meltzer]

Sharon, you just keep writing books, and you just keep doing things that I want to talk to you about. What are you just sitting around your house writing books all day?

[Tanya Moseley]

You know, the funniest part is this year, as you know, we are doing.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Three books in three months, which in.

[Tanya Moseley]

27 years, I've never done anything as crazy, which is crazy. But, you know, one's a kid's book. One is an adult nonfiction book, which takes, you know, two years to do. The kids book takes less. And then, you know, this inspiration book obviously wants to be timed for graduation season. So they're like, we're sorry. We're doing all three at once. And I was like, I need a nap.

[Brad Meltzer]

Everyone wants a piece of you, Brad. You just have too many good ideas.

[Tanya Moseley]

I don't know. You clearly don't understand my family. My kids do not. They've had it.

[Brad Meltzer]

No, I do understand. My kids are like, that's nice, right?

[Tanya Moseley]

Well, the funny part is when I go to events, my kids will sit in the audience of my book events. And when they know whatever joke I'm making, they'll mouth it along with me. Cause they've been to so many, and now I won't do the same bit. They forced me to up my game. So every time you come see me now, I'm like, oh, there has to be all new material. And I blame them. And they're like, well, why didn't you do that old joke I'm like, because you would make fun of me, right?

[Brad Meltzer]

I don't need to be mocked from the nosebleeds. Give me a break.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

16 year old.

[Tanya Moseley]

Exactly. And you know exactly, right?

[Brad Meltzer]

Totally. Hope and Tim Walls made a TikTok about the books they're reading as a family and they're like on vacation somewhere. It looked like Hawaii. And Hope and Tim are like, okay, so we are reading two books and the first one they talked about is Demon Copperhead. Great book. And then the second book they talked about is my book.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, I love that.

[Brad Meltzer]

And so Tim is like, she's national treasure. And the book's so amazing. And Gwen gave it to the first lady for Christmas and blah blah, blah. Like, I don't personally interact with Tim Walls, so I've never asked him to do anything like that. And it's not like he would anyway. But a lot of people sent it to me, like, did you say this? So of course I sent it to my children and they're like, that's cool.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh yeah.

[Brad Meltzer]

Like that's the sum total of the reaction.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's cool.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, you just reminded me of a great story.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So Seth Meyers was coming to Florida.

[Tanya Moseley]

And I know him cause I've been on the show a number of times. And I said to my daughter, do.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You want to come and see Seth Meyers?

[Tanya Moseley]

And she says, nah. And I said, well, what if you can go backstage and meet him? Because he had said, come backstage and hang out with me after. And she said, it's okay. And I told Seth that story and I sent him the text. I said, if you ever think you're so popular, here's how you're doing with.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

18 year old girls who are freshmen in college.

[Tanya Moseley]

And he laughed and he said, is your daughter home tomorrow morning? He said, yeah, he says, I'm coming over for brunch. And he comes from his event to my house and he knocks on the door. I told my daughter so she was ready for it. And he literally says, so what were you doing last night? She's like, I was busy. He's like, I know you weren't.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And then we went on.

[Tanya Moseley]

You can look it up if you.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Put my name in Brad Meltzer and Seth Meyers.

[Tanya Moseley]

I went on his show, invited my daughter to the event because now she wanted to go. I told the story and he took a picture with her that day. And what she didn't know, she's watching from backstage, she's with my sister and she's like laughing, laughing, laughing. And I cleared it with her, of course, first to make sure she would like the joke. And she loved it. What she didn't know, though, is that I had screenshot her texts while she was watching. My sister said. She goes, they have my texts. And I said to Seth, after I said, you gave me one of the best lessons ever for my kids, which is don't put anything in writing.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Totally.

[Tanya Moseley]

So, yes, if we can do nothing else is to try and impress our kids unsuccessfully.

[Brad Meltzer]

Please note that you are a lawyer, and you could not think of a better setup for the lesson of don't put anything in writing than that one. You can say that 25 times a day over breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and they're still gonna be like, yeah, dad, okay, we get it. Nope, that's the lesson.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's the one.

[Tanya Moseley]

National television with a screenshot. And my daughter loves. It's her favorite thing. Like, she sends it to all her friends now. You know, she thinks she looks cool in it, But I don't think she realizes it started with her just completely, as always, being unimpressed with her dad.

[Brad Meltzer]

Totally unimpressed.

[Tanya Moseley]

And by the way, that's how it should be. Like, no kid should be impressed with their parents. Like, if I like the song and my parents liked it, I was like, that song is dead to me. So I feel like it's okay. I feel like it's good to keep us humble.

[Brad Meltzer]

The hope is when they get to be old enough and they have a little perspective, that they will be able to look back on the retrospective of your life and career and be like, dang it, dad. Actually was really cool, you guys. But they need that time to separate from you and to think you're deeply uncool.

[Tanya Moseley]

That's right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's their own identity form.

[Tanya Moseley]

Of course, I do think that's part of the process.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I will say, the first time I ever saw any love for anything.

[Tanya Moseley]

I did professionally was this commencement address.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Because my kids were obviously in the.

[Tanya Moseley]

Audience, and I thought, my son would like it. It was his graduation. But it was my daughter the hardest to impress. And she will never give me a good word, a good review. And after the speech was done, I mean, it's a commencement address at the University of Michigan in front of 70,000 people. It's a stadium. And afterwards, I go back and I look at her, and she says, can I see the speech? And what she wanted was to read it. And she wouldn't say, you did well. She wouldn't say, that was great. But she was like, let me see It. And then she sat there and I watched her read. And I was terrified. I was like, what is she doing? And she's just so smart and so sharp, and she's just picking it apart. And she said to me, this is some writing. Like, you didn't just put this together. And it wasn't that I was cool. It wasn't that I was smart. It wasn't I was anything but. She appreciated the hard work that she knew had to go in to produce.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Something to entertain a stadium of people that's the size of Wembley Stadium.

[Tanya Moseley]

I literally was in tears later that night when she left the hotel room. Cause I said it was the first time I ever saw her have that moment you just spoke about, which is that realization that maybe Dad's not always a buffoon mostly, but.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

But not today.

[Brad Meltzer]

Occasionally his intellect comes out. That's so fantastic. The only person that my children are impressed that I know there's only one person, and it is Mark Robert.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, he's big in my house. I mean, come on. Yeah, you have smart kids. That's why if you know Mark Rober. I mean, that guy was a legend in our house for many years.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yes. Like, Mark rober has more YouTube subscribers than Taylor Swift at this point.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah. No, it's crazy. I mean, he's amazing. And again, kudos to your kids. That's a real talent. They have taste.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yes. He's not just eating pizza and making ASMR videos. He's really doing interesting and cool stuff. But the idea that, like, oh, my gosh, you have Mark Rober's phone number. You talk to Mark Rober in real life. Like, you know Mark Rober. Like, they don't care about presidents or anybody.

[Tanya Moseley]

Nobody. I was gonna say they don't care about Tim Walls, but the only one in my house is, I know the impractical jokers. And that's what impresses my kids now. Like, the impractical jokers are like, that's who's in your phone. Get him on here. I'm like, we're not calling him now. Like, it's not how it works, but it's amazing. Like, as a parent, I'm happy I.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Have someone I can't impress you mostly.

[Tanya Moseley]

But I got at least one person in there.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yes. My 12 year old is like, can we invite Mark Rober to my birthday party?

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, that's so sweet. I love.

[Brad Meltzer]

Like, that would. She would have endless amounts of school clout if Mark Rober came to your birthday. Like, he'd be the most popular Human alive.

[Tanya Moseley]

Of course. Think of the Monday morning discussions in your daughter's name. They'll be like, epic. Like a yearbook page dedicated to it, as it should.

[Brad Meltzer]

That's very true. You know, I watched your commencement address to, as you mentioned, the University of Michigan, which is a really challenging audience. It is. People, of course, are excited to be there. They're excited to see their loved one graduate. But having been to a number of commencements, as a longtime teacher, I've sat through many a commencement. They can be long. The weather can be annoying. It can be a little bit like, okay, we gotta sit through this to be able to hear little Johnny's name called. That's what you're really there for. It can be one of those things where you just kind of endure it. You know, you endure the commencement speaker. I listened to one commencement speaker at my sister's college graduation in which he spent at least half of the address talking about a collapsible broom that he found at a store and what a great invention it was. And I left being like, what?

[Sharon McMahon]

It was. The bit about the broom. Why did we need to talk about.

[Brad Meltzer]

That for 20 minutes? So it can be a really, really challenging thing to get right. And then your speech went viral all over social media, and people were like, this needs to be more than just a video on the Internet. This needs to be like a book we can hold in our hand. This needs to be something that we can have on our shelf or our coffee table and refer back to. And, you know, one of the things that really struck me about this idea of making magic, I was having a discussion with somebody recently, like, does magic really exist? And I would love to hear your take on that. I'll just let you take it away. Does magic really exist?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Of course, the answer is yes.

[Tanya Moseley]

Not in the way we think. But, you know, when they asked me to speak at this graduation, I knew one thing. I asked all of my friends, tell me what you remember about your commencement speaker.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Anything they said.

[Tanya Moseley]

And not a single person, not one, could tell me anything that was said. What they could tell me over and over was, I remember I was sitting with my friends. I remember I was hungover from the night before. I remember my girlfriend and I had just broken up or we were about to break. They were all personal experiences. And so I knew going in, no one will remember anything I'm going to say.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So I'm going to create, instead of.

[Tanya Moseley]

Just a speech, an experience. And I was like, and what's the ultimate experience as a magic trick? And I remember this detail because I want to believe in magic. And I remember starting to talk to.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Magicians and they told me and explained.

[Tanya Moseley]

To me there are only four types of magic tricks. If you take away escapes and illusions, which are category onto themselves, there's only.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Four types of tricks.

[Tanya Moseley]

One, you have to make something appear. Two is you have to make something disappear. Three, you have to take two things and make them switch places. And four, you have to take one.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Thing and turn it into something else.

[Tanya Moseley]

Which is the hardest trick of all. And I was like, oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use that as my model for how to teach people. Because we all think in life there's so many things that science and math can explain, but sometimes you can't explain it at all. And that's what magic is. And that to me is the definition of it. And I said, and that's where I'm going to go. And my wife and I, it was so funny because I kept saying, well.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

What should I have appear and what.

[Tanya Moseley]

Should I have disappear? And I can do this. And she said, brad, stop messing around with it.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Just give your best advice of what.

[Tanya Moseley]

You think should appear. And I said, you your honest, true self. And she was like, that's great. And then I said, and we can talk about each of these individual. But I said, what about fear? You have to make your fear disappear. That's the disappearing part.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Get rid of your fear.

[Tanya Moseley]

She's like, that's good. But then I got to the one about two things that have to switch places. And I started talking about empathy. And when you give these big speeches, Sharon, you know your book events which have been so incredible, those events, you know, at some point where the laugh is going to be, where everyone's going to go aww. Where everyone's going to clap, you kind of get a feel and a rhythm to it. And I delivered this speech so many times to different friends I had in my head where I thought they would react. And there's a line at the end that says, if you really want to change the world, unleash your kindness. And I thought people would like that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

But as I'm talking through the speech.

[Tanya Moseley]

In this empathy part, I say these words, I say cruelty and venom on signs of strength. There are signs of petty insecurity. And what really takes strength is showing kindness and empathy. And the audience started clapping. And usually you can kind of control the audience a little bit. You surf it like a wave and I can kind of calm it down and I couldn't. And if you watch the speech, I had to say that line again because the crowd just went bananas.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And my wife said to me after.

[Tanya Moseley]

The speech, you tapped a vein you didn't know was there, that the culture, right now, we're so tired of cruelty and venom. We're starving for empathy and kindness.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And it just hits something in this vein.

[Tanya Moseley]

And that's what took off on the Internet. You know, the only thing I take from it is it wasn't anything I did. It was just the world and the moment we were in and the fact that people wanted to now take it and turn it into a book or that all these famous people were sharing it around the Internet. That's great. What I take away from it is that all of us out there, regular people, were just starving for kindness. And that, to me is a good sign, not a bad sign.

[Sharon McMahon]

It shouldn't be so challenging to find a therapist you can trust. And it also shouldn't cost a fortune. And that is why today's sponsor, Rula, was created.

[Brad Meltzer]

Rula helps connect you with high quality.

[Sharon McMahon]

Vetted, licensed mental health professionals who are suited just for you. They take most major insurance plans, so instead of paying hundreds out of pocket, you could pay as little as $15 per session. And Rula supports you all the way. From finding a therapist and scheduling your sessions to keeping track of your progress and dealing with insurance, they make it happen. Getting started is also easy. Just answer a few questions about your insurance, the type of care you're looking for, and your preferences. Rula then matches you within network providers who fit your criteria and you can book your first session as soon as the next day. I know so many people who have benefited from therapy and it is a great way to get extra support when you need it. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and overall well being. Head over to rula.com Interesting to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask where.

[Brad Meltzer]

You heard about them.

[Sharon McMahon]

Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Go to r u l a.com Interesting. And take the first step toward better mental health. Today, you deserve quality care from someone who cares.

[Jeff Probst]

Hey, it's me, Jeff Probst. I'm excited to share that Survivor's back with our 48th season. And alongside it, we're bringing you a brand new season of Bonfire, the only official Survivor podcast. If you are a Survivor super fan, you will not want to miss the deep dive into every episode. And we do it from three different points of view. First you have me, the showrunner Survivor, answering how and why we made the sometimes controversial choices we did. Then you have Jay Wolf, my co host who represents the superfan, asking the burning questions that you are shouting at your TVs. And finally you get the point of view of an all time great Survivor player and their job is to give us the insight into exactly what is happening on the beach. This season we are joined by somebody I can't wait to hear from the winner of Survivor 47, Rachel Lamont.

[Brad Meltzer]

I'm so excited to join the On Fire squad to help break down Survivor 48. Join us every Wednesday immediately following the show.

[Jeff Probst]

Listen to On Fire, the official Survivor podcast with me, Jeff Probst. Every Wednesday after the show. Wherever you get your podcast, you know.

[Sharon McMahon]

That feeling when your kids ask for.

[Brad Meltzer]

Snacks every three minutes and you're stuck.

[Sharon McMahon]

Choosing between sugary junk and snacks they'll actually eat. I've been there. I am still there.

[Brad Meltzer]

I want to feel good about what.

[Sharon McMahon]

I'm giving my family. But reading labels and finding better options at the grocery store, that's basically a full time job. That's why I love Thrive Market. One of the biggest reasons I shop with Thrive Market is their commitment to banning over 1,000 harmful ingredients from their products. With over 10,000 food additives allowed in the US it's hard to know what's actually safe to eat. But Thrive Market does the hard work for me. I order boxes and boxes of the that's it bars that my kids are currently obsessed with. I also eat them too. And I love how easy it is to reorder with their Buy it Again feature. Plus their Healthy Swap scanner makes it so simple to find better options. Just scan a product and it instantly recommends healthier alternatives. I swapped out sugary snacks for high quality dye free favorites like chomps, beef sticks, simple mills, crackers and lesser evil popcorn. My kids don't even notice the difference. Ready to make the switch? Go to thrivemarket.com Interesting for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com Interesting thrivemarket.com Interesting.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah, I mean I think even in this sort of like post election period, whether somebody is happy about the outcome of the election, distraught about the outcome of the election, it really was in many ways a referendum on acceptable ways to conduct ourselves in the public square. And I heard from so many people that they were disheartened by the tone of candidates during the election. Again, whether you liked what they were saying or not. Those moments press little buttons in our brain where we like knowing that other people dislike the person we dislike. You know, like if you have candidate A who's ripping on candidate B and you hate them too, it feels really good in our minds to find solidarity with a group who feels the same.

[Sharon McMahon]

Way that we do.

[Brad Meltzer]

And our minds also really enjoy being right. It pings little things in our brains. We're like. We're correct. My assessment that candidate B was terrible was correct. Here's all the evidence that all these other famous and smart people agree with me. I mean, that's just human nature. That's how our minds work. And yet I think in some ways, people have found that type of discourse. Even though it feels good in your mind at the time, it doesn't produce the kind of fruit in society that we want to consume. It doesn't make us smarter. It doesn't make us better. It doesn't create the kind of relationships we wish we could have. What do you think about this disconnect between what we feel like we want? You know, like we want smarter, kinder, more empathetic, genuine world, and yet we love the takedowns.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, no, it's.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That.

[Tanya Moseley]

That's not a bug.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's a feature. Right.

[Tanya Moseley]

We are complex creatures. I mean, we are people who, you know, we look at the algorithm, and the algorithm rewards what, Outrage? Anger. Right? That's what goes the fastest. And, boy, do we love it. We click on it like it's pellets and it's feeding us water. But we also. And I take a little solace from, you know, how many videos of kids that are deaf and are hearing for the first time, or they're blind and they're getting glasses for the first time, or soldiers returning home to their families that they haven't seen those fly around. Also, we don't give them as much credit. We like seeing them, but we love.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Both of those things.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's not one group likes one and one group likes the other. We all like all of it. And I think, for me, I started looking into empathy and what it takes. It's hard to show empathy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's not easy.

[Tanya Moseley]

In fact, studies show that when we get too much bad news, our brains get overwhelmed. And that's why we changed the channel and we swiped to a new app and we shut down. And one of the things I didn't put in the speech, but when I was researching it, I found they actually also studied how to be more empathetic. And you know what it is, is you have to think that you are more empathetic. Just the thought that I can do that makes you more empathetic. It's the first step. So you and I right now, just talking about the beauty of it and that it's possible, it opens us up to be more empathetic ourselves. That's all it takes. It's nothing more complex. And I think what we have to do is we have to fight. You know, we are creatures of evolution and evolution put things like fear in us. It put wanting to fight in us. It's why people love football and watching violence like it is something evolutionary wired in us, and that's why we survived. You know, there's a great book called the Gift of Fear and it says when you're walking down a dark alley and you have that feeling in your stomach, that knot that says, I don't know if I should walk down this alley.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Listen to that fear. That fear is evolutionary.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's telling you don't go. And it let you survive your ancestors.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Millions of years by listening to that fear.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's built in again as a feature. And I think in many ways it's the same thing with anger, it's the same thing with those bad things. But we have to fight that for.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The empathetic, beautiful side of ourselves.

[Tanya Moseley]

To me, that's the ultimate magic trick is being better than what angers you.

[Brad Meltzer]

That's so interesting. I want to hear a little bit more too about how you even sort of conceptualized this idea of making magic. You know, you could have talked about anything. You could have been like, go out there and live your dreams and make a difference.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah, I know. The commencement address is the easiest cliche to fall into. I mean, I started watching them and.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

They all fall into the same things, which is like, live your dream, be this, do that.

[Tanya Moseley]

You know, When I graduated college, I.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Was the first in my immediate family.

[Tanya Moseley]

To go to a four year college. So just being at college graduation was a miracle in my family's eyes. And I was so excited. The students, they will always have a student speaker at Michigan when you graduate. And I wrote the best speech, Sharon. It was like passionate and it was awesome. And if you get past the first round, you get to deliver the speech and then they narrow it down and pick from there. And one of my close friends was on the committee, so I knew he was going to get me to the second round. And I was like, well, if they're going to hear me speak, oh please just give me the microphone now. I'm going to win this whole thing. And I didn't make it past the first round. Even my own friend was like, that's terrible. You know, that's hokey nonsense. And so I knew, you know what? When it comes to the experience, one of the things I did in the speech is I talked about how. And this is also true. When I graduated Michigan, it was the year that the football player, Desmond Howard.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Won the Heisman Trophy. And the speaker at the time, the.

[Tanya Moseley]

Graduation speaker, literally said, desmond Howard, are you in the stands right now?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And stand up.

[Tanya Moseley]

And the guy stood up. This football star stood up in the stands, and he was, like, 10 rows away from me. And I remember looking at him and going, oh, my gosh, there's this guy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Who just won the Heisman Trophy.

[Tanya Moseley]

He's right there, 10 rows away from me. Like, look at the excellence of one of my fellow students. And I was so amazed by that. And at the end of my speech in this commencement address, my final magic trick is I said, you know, the great thing is a good magician always has another trick up their sleeve. If you really want to make magic.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It'S not about all the things about you.

[Tanya Moseley]

Making magic is always something you do for someone else. And so I want to do a.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Final magic trick for you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome my friend Desmond Howard. And then we had Desmond Howard, 30.

[Tanya Moseley]

Years later, walk out on the stage with me, and 70,000 people exploded. To answer your question, I knew that what I was going to say in.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

30 years wouldn't matter. The only thing I remember from my.

[Tanya Moseley]

Graduation was how that made me feel, seeing that amazing thing so close to me. And so when I came up with the whole thing, I was like, that's what I have to do. It doesn't matter what I say. I'm going to show people how to feel, and I'm going to give them a permanent memory right here, live on stage. And once I had that, that's where the magic came from. My wife said, you didn't give a commencement address. You did a magic trick that you couldn't practice. Desmond flew in right before it. So we never practiced it. We didn't even know where he was going to come on stage. And we did it with the highest level of difficulty in front of everyone. And we were committed to the bit and pulled it off.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And that was where the whole concept.

[Tanya Moseley]

Came from, is, forget about it as a speech.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Think about how to bring magic into the world.

[Tanya Moseley]

And suddenly, that's where make magic came from.

[Brad Meltzer]

I want to talk about why you decided to make this into a book, and who is this book for?

[Tanya Moseley]

The truth was, I never thought it was going to be a book. And I do think I'm curious how you would answer this.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

My best projects in life.

[Tanya Moseley]

And I think even as a parent, I think the greatest days of me being a parent are never the ones I'm prepared for. They're the ones that completely catch me off guard. Everything I plan for never works out the way I want. Right? I plan this great day for my.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Children where I'm going to inspire them.

[Tanya Moseley]

And they're, like, in a bad mood and everyone's hangry, and they're all like, dad, so stupid. That stunk. But those moments that are just magic.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Are the ones that you're not prepared for.

[Tanya Moseley]

They're the days that catch me off guard. And that's what this was. I didn't plan it to be a book.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I planned it just to be something.

[Tanya Moseley]

Special I was doing for my son.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Who was a graduate in this audience.

[Tanya Moseley]

And here we go. And then once it went viral, I got all these different publishers calling me up and saying, we want to do a book of this. And I was like, what do you mean? And they're like, we want to capture that in book form. And I realized all these parents started emailing us. All these people that had their kids at different schools started emailing, can I have a copy? I've never in all my life had more friends, relatives, neighbors emailing me and.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Texting me saying, can I have a.

[Tanya Moseley]

Copy of that speech? Nothing that I've ever done in 27 years as a writer had more people saying that. I realized that's what we all want to hold. Not my words or anything like that, but we want to hold magic. We want to believe that there's good in the world. We want to remind ourselves that we have to bring our true self to everything.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

We want to get rid of our fears.

[Tanya Moseley]

We want to feel that kindness. We want to transform into something better. And I said that I only will do it if we can do it in kind of a beautiful visual way. So it becomes like an art book that is a gift you can give.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Some people, I'm sure, will buy it.

[Tanya Moseley]

For themselves, but it has to be a gift that you give to someone you love to inspire them. And suddenly we had a book.

[Brad Meltzer]

When's the last time you experienced magic?

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, you know, I'll tell you this. I never thought I was going to say this, so I had to go for an MRI yesterday. I had tinnitus in my ear. That's what happens when you get old.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And the doctor says to me, I.

[Tanya Moseley]

Got to see if you have a brain tumor. And trust me that when you hear those words, everything becomes magic. On the way to this silly MRI to find out if I'm going to live or if it's going to kill me, God knows where my life is going to turn in this moment. I roll down my windows. I wanted to feel everything. I mean, it was a seven minute ride from my house to go to this place.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I was on the highway, by the way, one exit.

[Tanya Moseley]

And I wanted to feel the wind there too. That's magic. There's an old Buddhist saying that if you want to really experience the world and the beauty of it, tell yourself before whatever you're doing, this is the last time. I will blank. If you are going and cleaning up.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Your dog's poop and you say this.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is the last time I'm cleaning up my dog's poop, I promise you it will be magical.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Right?

[Tanya Moseley]

And that was magic to me. Like having it all potentially go away. Now thank God I can tell you I got my results.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm clean, I'm fine.

[Tanya Moseley]

I have no tumor. I just have tinnitus. But to answer your question as honestly as I can, there's no surer way to find magic than to think that it's all going to go away.

[Brad Meltzer]

Do you intentionally live your life that way? Do you look for magic in small moments? Is that something that's difficult for you to do and you have to sort of force yourself to do it? I think sometimes people are inclined to look at the world with a sense of awe or wonder. And I don't know if that is a product of nature or nurture, but I think some people are naturally inclined to it. And sometimes it's harder for people who live in their prefrontal cortex. It's harder for them to look at the world through those eyes.

[Tanya Moseley]

My dad did not see magic. My dad was just a thunderous personality who whatever was going on, that was stupid, that was dumb. Like he just had a chip on his shoulder and you know, would get into fights and arguments. And I think that, you know, when you have self destructive parents, or at least one of them, and he loved me, my mom loved me too, but he was self destructive. And the military will tell you that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The kids that are the best for.

[Tanya Moseley]

Finding minds like and finding IEDs, explosive devices, they tend to be kids who grow up in really bad neighborhoods because those kids at a molecular level know what it's like when danger is coming because it's not a want anymore that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

They need to change. It's a need.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's self protective, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

They have to.

[Tanya Moseley]

If you don't learn that skill, you're in major trouble. And I think for me, I learned that skill at a very early age of what it's like to read that molecular level. Is my dad going to be off.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The charts hot or is he coming in happy?

[Tanya Moseley]

And I could tell it in the first step through the door. I could tell it, I felt like in the key turn of the door, I knew this is going to be a bad day. This is going to be a good day.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's not natural.

[Tanya Moseley]

I work hard to find good. When I find my stories, I work hard to find that good part. And it doesn't come naturally. But I think my father's raising me.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Taught me the skill set I need.

[Tanya Moseley]

To find it better. But if it was easy, everyone would do it, you know, it's hard. I work at it.

[Brad Meltzer]

I mentioned at the top too. I'm like, what are you just sitting around writing books for a living all day? And you have another book that just recently came out, the JFK Conspiracy, the latest installment in the Meltzer Mensch conspiracy series.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah. No, listen, I love you. You are my favorite. The reason we're friends is our love of history, right? And that's how we met, is we've done books about the secret plot to kill Abraham Lincoln, to kill George Washington, to kill FDR, Stalin and Churchill at.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The height of World War II.

[Tanya Moseley]

We did the Nazi conspiracy for that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And this is the JFK conspiracy, just came out recently.

[Tanya Moseley]

What I love about it, you know, we all know Lee Harvey Oswald and the big plot that kills jfk, of course, but this is a plot before that, years before, in 1960, just as he's elected, there is an assassin who fills his car with seven sticks of dynamite. And then he goes and follows JFK to Palm beach because he thinks that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

JFK's security will be less there. Which it was.

[Tanya Moseley]

He knows that JFK goes to a.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

10Am church service every Sunday.

[Tanya Moseley]

So just before the church service, he waits outside JFK's house and JFK is right on time.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And all this assassin has to do.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is hit the gas and the little trigger device that he's built and boom. And I won't tell you what saves his life. I won't ruin it. But what saves his life in that moment has to do with his marriage. It's one of the craziest JFK stories you've never heard in your life. And best of all, it helps me feature Jackie and Jackie Kennedy is really.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The star of this book and just.

[Tanya Moseley]

Is so amazing and incredible. Josh and I were like we have to tell this story. And Josh mentioned I again got to do another one together.

[F]

Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. Making financial decisions shouldn't feel like filling out basketball brackets. Too many choices, too much noise, and no one wants a busted budget. NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast cuts through the clutter. Their finance journalists break down real world money decisions with clear, research backed insights. From investing to home buying to credit cards, the nerds help you navigate major financial decisions with confidence. Make smarter financial plays today. No luck required. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast wherever you listen.

[Sharon McMahon]

You know those moments when you realize.

[Brad Meltzer]

Ugh, I definitely need a little extra freshness.

[Sharon McMahon]

That's exactly when to reach for Lume. Lumi is not just any deodorant. It's a whole body deodorant. And unlike other deodorants, it was created by an OB GYN so it's safe, pH balanced and clinically proven to control odor for up to 72 hours. I'll admit I was skeptical. A deodorant that works for days and isn't just for underarms. But after trying the Solid Stick deodorant, I was shocked. It actually blocks odor before it starts in the sense so good. You can grab Lume at Walmart, Target or other retailers. But for the best deals, go to lumide.com Lume's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a Solid Stick Deodorant Cream Tube Deodorant, two free products like Mini Body Wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping as a special offer for listeners. New customers get 15% off all Lum products with our exclusive code. And if you combine that with the already discounted starter pack, that's over 40% off, use code Sharon for 15% off your first purchase at lumideodorant.com that's code Sharon at L u m e e d e O-O-R-A-N-T.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi. This episode of here's Where It Gets Interesting is brought to you by Wild Grain, the first bake from Frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries, and pastas. I have to tell you, Wild Grain has completely changed the way I do bread at home. The last box I got had the most inquiries. Incredible sourdough loaf. Crispy on the outside, soft and chewy on the inside. And those croissants, buttery, flaky, perfection. Plus everything bakes straight from frozen in under 25 minutes. Which means no planning ahead, no mess, no stress. And the best part, Wild Grains boxes are totally customizable. Whether you love classic sourdough, need a gluten free option, or prefer plant based, there's a box for you.

[Brad Meltzer]

Are you ready to bring all your.

[Sharon McMahon]

Favorite carbs right to your doorstep? Be sure to check out Wild Grain so you can begin building your own box of artisanal breads, pastas and pastries. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off the first box, plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.com Interesting to start your subscription. You heard me. Free croissants in Every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgreen.com Interesting. That's wildgreen.com Interesting or use promo code interesting at checkout.

[Brad Meltzer]

You have a really fantastic way, you and Josh, of writing stories from history in a way that feels like you're reading a thriller novel where you are just like, I gotta know what's gonna happen. And that's actually I can tell you because I know from experience it's hard to do. It is hard to write in a way that is true and is also page turning. That is a very singular skill. It's a skill not many people have.

[Tanya Moseley]

Well, you have it. I've read your books. I read your stuff all the time. You know that I think I did one of the first blurbs you did, which I was very happy about.

[Brad Meltzer]

And I was. I was very grateful. Thank you.

[Tanya Moseley]

But the point is, I have one rule when it comes to scary, which is the moment it gets really, really scary and you want it to go fast, just slow down. There's a moment. In fact, one of my favorite moments in the book is this moment where you see Jackie giving birth and you know, here's this marriage and we feature her all the affairs and everything else. And the sad part is we've reduced Jackie into this beautiful. And she's got style and she's got grace, but it's just we've turned her into a cliche. She's so much more complex and amazing than that. And as I'm reading through all the stuff. There's this moment where she comes and is told by JFK is one of his best friends. After they're engaged, he comes up to her and says, Jackie, you know, Jack loves women and he's going to continue to love him. Basically says to her face, he's going to sleep around on you. And then you see this kind of.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Slow motion car crash of what she's gotten into.

[Tanya Moseley]

I'm like, don't go faster here, slow it down.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Let's look at the affairs, let's look at her life, let's look where she's from.

[Tanya Moseley]

And my wife said when she was reading the JFK Conspiracy, she's like, these Jackie scenes are unbelievable because she's so amazing. And again you have the assassin who's closing in on both of them. But that's when you have to slow down and that's when you can really make the thriller go up.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah, the moment you're like on the edge of your seat and you're like.

[Sharon McMahon]

Just get it over with.

[Tanya Moseley]

Get back the plunger.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's right.

[Tanya Moseley]

That's what I say. That's when you slow.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

But the other thing is, what you're also seeing in there though are my obsessions.

[Tanya Moseley]

So I remember when I was researching the book, the whole time Josh and I are writing, I'm going, where does Camelot come from? Because we all associate Camelot with JFK and Jackie Kennedy. And it wasn't until we were writing the book that I finally realized that it doesn't come into the lexicon until after JFK dies. And after that, Jackie is obviously distraught, the nation's distraught. It's one of the most horrible days in modern American history. And Life magazine says, we want to do an interview with you. She says, I'll grant one interview. She has the reporter come to her house late at night, after 8 o'clock. She's there until midnight and they're rewriting it together. And she tells him in that moment the story about her husband jfk, that when he was alive, when his back.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Was hurting, he was in the White.

[Tanya Moseley]

House and he was really in pain. What would ease his pain was she would put on a record on the record player about this amazing place that he loved called Camelot. And that would calm him down. And Jackie was a member of the press. Actually, when she started, she was a reporter back in her younger days.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So she's a member of the press.

[Tanya Moseley]

She'S hounded by the press, she's distraught by the press, she's crucified by the.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Press held up by the press.

[Tanya Moseley]

But make no mistake, Sharon, she is.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

A master of the press. She's the one who inserts the word.

[Tanya Moseley]

Camelot into how we think about that legacy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

She's the one who very purposely puts.

[Tanya Moseley]

It there because she's like, I'm going to write that legacy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And she says herself so no one.

[Tanya Moseley]

Else can write it. And I'm like, this is the most savvy, amazing woman holding this all together with a grace unknown to anyone. And I felt like it was such an amazing story to tell. But what you're reading there is not just, oh, here's what happened. It's. I'm blown away there. I'm going slow, because I am floored by. By this woman who truthfully, had just become this, like, fashion icon. And to call Jackie Kennedy a fashion icon is. I mean, she's one of the great.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Political players of all time.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah, she did the opposite of Eliza Hamilton. She didn't write herself out of the narrative. She was writing the narrative.

[Tanya Moseley]

And the thing that's amazing about her is that she's got no help, right? It's not like she's in the great marriage. When she gives birth, her husband is.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Nowhere to be found.

[Tanya Moseley]

He's on a plane going to Florida. And here she is. She gives birth, she hemorrhages. She has this surgery. She's exhausted. The whole country is obviously clamoring for her. She leaves. They have the christening for John. John. She leaves the hospital. They're like, we got to go to Florida today. Imagine the day you left the hospital, Sharon, you know, saying, we're going to go to Florida now. And they're like, by the way, before we go to Florida, though, you have to stop by the White house and meet Mrs. Eisenhower, because today's the only day you can meet her, that she'll see you. And so she goes to see Mamie Eisenhower, and she's exhausted.

[Sharon McMahon]

Right.

[Tanya Moseley]

She needs a wheelchair. It's just the first lady and first lady, and they're gonna meet each other.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

For the first time and see the.

[Tanya Moseley]

House for the first time.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And Jackie Kennedy comes up in this.

[Tanya Moseley]

Elevator, and the doors open up, and Mamie Eisenhower is staring at her, and it's like going to see Hannibal Lecter in that moment.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

She's so intimidated and so scary. And this woman is on her last leg.

[Tanya Moseley]

She's just given birth and getting released from the hospital. And, you know, she's amazing and terrified and weak and strong and everything in one breath. And I just said, I can't believe what she's doing all by herself here, it's incredible.

[Brad Meltzer]

It is. And Jackie's heartbreak throughout her life, you know, her dead baby, and she loses more than one baby, obviously, and she has to do this in the public eye. And I mean, the stories of Jacqui are. They're very copious. You could write a thousand page book about Jackie.

[Tanya Moseley]

Yeah. And, you know, I'm curious what you think my take on her. And I'm still kind of in a weird way digesting her because, like, you know, you spend all this time in the book and then you kind of.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Come out and you get to talk.

[Tanya Moseley]

To people about her. But I feel like JFK and Jackie Kennedy are the first celebrity presidents. Right. There's famous presidents always throughout history, but.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

What we think of as celebrity, and.

[Tanya Moseley]

Especially that suburban celebrity where people in the suburbs are like, that's the life I want. I want to have that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's a new kind of American dream.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's not the Abraham Lincoln American dream, but it's this fame and beauty and money and powered American dream. And some people will say that's what.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Reagan was to them.

[Tanya Moseley]

Some people say that's what Obama was to them. Some people will also say it about Trump. But I feel like everyone's just in a weird way, sort of cosplaying what.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

JFK and Jackie are doing.

[Tanya Moseley]

And I think what I take away.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

From them now, I'm curious your thoughts.

[Tanya Moseley]

On this, but is that it's not just a fake American dream, but it's not even a worthwhile one. That what we've been chasing all this time, this fame and celebrity and this, it's wasteful.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's a hollow thing that we're chasing.

[Tanya Moseley]

And until we realize that, I don't know how we get past that one, you know, and obviously there are people.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Who are amazing and who are wonderful.

[Tanya Moseley]

Presence, as we know, but there's something about them, that celebrity that was associated with them, that I feel like we're.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Still chasing after them because it was gone so soon.

[Tanya Moseley]

We hold it up at a level of perfection that of course, it was no Camelot.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It didn't exist.

[Tanya Moseley]

No, it was completely something that was created by one of the most savvy out there.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah. The siren song of celebrity and money and fame and power. It's again, I think it just really pings something deep inside the human mind. It represents safety and it represents, you know, the idea of like, if everybody loves me and I'm famous, I'll never be in the out group if I have Money, I'll never lack for resources. If I have power, I'll never be unsafe from outside attackers. I think at the core of all of these things is this human desire for safety, whether we can articulate that or not. And of course, Jackie represents this notion of, you can have it all. You can have a handsome husband and beautiful children.

[Tanya Moseley]

I think you're really sad about that. I think that's on the money. Like, it's funny, I'm thinking about, like, I do think safety is a big part of it. I never saw it like that before. There's a story I told in the Make Magic book. When I was younger, my parents lost everything and we moved to Florida. And when we got to Florida, we.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Had no place to live.

[Tanya Moseley]

So we lived with my grandmother, who lived in a one bedroom apartment. And there were four of my family, my grandmother, my grandfather, six of us in a one bedroom apartment that we were sleeping on the floor and on sofas. And all the people in the condo.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Commandos that were complaining about us were.

[Tanya Moseley]

Like, you can't have six people in a one bedroom. And they're all yelling at us. And this one older woman, who was my grandmother's neighbor, right across the hall from her, said, you know what?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm gonna go sleep elsewhere. You can have my apartment. Just trying to give us a little.

[Tanya Moseley]

Feeling like we weren't being evicted. And I remember her name was Merci, which when I was younger, I always heard in my head as Mercy. And make no mistake, Mercy is what this woman was showing us. And when you were telling that story, it's funny, I never saw celebrity or fame as safety. I always associated safety with what Mercy was doing, was kindness. And as I get older, and as I hope I get a little wiser, I realize it's the small things that are the big things.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The big things are always hollow.

[Tanya Moseley]

The big things are always useless. But it's those little things that one.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Kindness from that one woman across the.

[Tanya Moseley]

Way did more for me than whatever.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The Kennedys had in all the estates.

[Tanya Moseley]

And whether it was in Boston or D.C. or down in South Florida, that one kind person.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And again, listen, small and mighty, right?

[Tanya Moseley]

Like, is just so much more impactful to me than any celebrity or anything else like that.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah, I bet if you could have a frank and honest conversation with Jackie at the end of her life. And of course, she was very famously private and guarded with the press, especially later in her life.

[Sharon McMahon]

I bet if you could speak to.

[Brad Meltzer]

Her friend to friend, she would probably tell you that everything that she had Acquired, you know, the billionaire husband and the handsome president husband and the beautiful, handsome son, and, you know, the fame and power and prestige that she had amassed. She would probably tell you that none of it had been worth it.

[Tanya Moseley]

I think you're right. And I think she would have said that during the presidency. I've heard, you know, great actors are described as the ones who give you a feeling that they don't want the camera. And I feel like that's what Jackie was when she was getting married to this man. When you read the JFK Conspiracy, you'll see it. She truly wants none of it. Everyone wants a piece of her. And she's like, the more they want her, the more she's like, I don't.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Want any of this.

[Tanya Moseley]

And I think you're right. I think if she could trade places with anyone on the street and say, you can just have a calm life with nothing, I think she would take it in a heartbeat, because that is just not worth it.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of the reasons Jackie spends so much time away from the White House, even though she's well known for all of the White House restorations and the redecorating and the parties. And she really has impeccable taste, and that's really what we associate with her, the White House Historical Society. But it's why she spends so much of her short time in the White House at her horse farm in Virginia. Like, she just doesn't have it. Yes.

[Tanya Moseley]

And by the way, when she's in the White House, everyone always says, oh, she redecorates this.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And of course, she did those things.

[Tanya Moseley]

We got the rose going. Got the things.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

But what she also does is she.

[Tanya Moseley]

Brings art to the White House, artists to the White House.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

People come talk to us. Tell us about interesting things.

[Tanya Moseley]

Tell us about history. Tell us about New Age art. Tell us about all these wonderful things. What's she trying to do? She's trying to bring humanity into this museum that she's forced to suddenly live in. So even when she's there, like you said, when she's not there, she's like, I'm out of here. When she is there, she's like, change it, because this is not working for me. What we tried to do in this book is give Jackie those new chapters so we don't reduce her. And we've done it with the Kennedys, too. Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Kennedy is the World War II hero.

[Tanya Moseley]

He's the guy who gave us optimism.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

In a whole new way. He took us to the moon.

[Tanya Moseley]

All Amazing things. He's also a completely reckless husband. So is he bad or is he like the rest of us? A little bit of both. And he's due to be turned into a complex human person rather than this idol. And she is due to receive all.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

The accolades she deserves for what she's.

[Tanya Moseley]

Done culturally, in her family, in her own life. That again, we've reduced to, like, isn't she beautiful? Put her on vogue. Like, we do a disservice to her when we just turn her into that.

[Brad Meltzer]

Who are these books for, Brad? If I'm going into the bookstore and I'm like, who should I buy this for? Will I like this? Will I buy this for myself or somebody else? Who are they for?

[Tanya Moseley]

Listen, Make Magic.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I have heard from grandparents, from parents.

[Tanya Moseley]

From kids, from students. That book is for anyone who needs some inspiration in your life.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

We literally made the title of it the little book of inspiration you didn't.

[Tanya Moseley]

Know you needed, because, my God, we all need some kindness and empathy right now. That book is for anyone. If you want to feel good, pick up Make Magic and just read any page in there. And for me, it's, I think, one of my favorite things I've ever written. And it came because people demanded it as a book, not because I tried to design it. So that's easy. The JFK conspiracy. You just gotta love some history. If you love a thriller, of course. And if you love jfk, of course. But I think, and my wife will attest, if you love Jackie Kennedy, read the book.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You're gonna just see a new gear in her that you never saw before.

[Tanya Moseley]

And if you love history, it's just.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

A slice into the Kennedy life that.

[Tanya Moseley]

You'Ve never seen, because no one's ever written a book about this assassination attempt. And it's not kooky crazy that you know, if you want to hear my real theory. I don't know if I ever told you my theory on who killed jfk, but here's my theory is, and this will reveal, I think, as much about me as anything else. If you want to know who killed JFK in the 60s, when he shot, it was the height of the Cold War.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So we thought it was the Russians, we thought it was the Cubans, our.

[Tanya Moseley]

Great enemies at the time. If you look in the 70s, as Watergate hits and distrust of the government reaches all new heights after Nixon, guess who killed jfk. Well, now the government had to do it. It was an inside job. CIA did it, LBJ did it, and then in the 80s, the Godfather movies peak. Who killed JFK? It was the mob. So decade by decade, if you want.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

To know who killed jfk, it's whoever.

[Tanya Moseley]

America's most afraid of at that moment in time. And so to me, JFK has always been a mirror.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Him and Jackie, you hold them up.

[Tanya Moseley]

And you see what you want to see. And so the JFK conspiracy is anyone who likes looking in that mirror and finding something. The best parts of us are in that mirror, and the worst parts of us are in that mirror. And you can see it in this book.

[Brad Meltzer]

Thanks for being here, Brad. I'm sure you're gonna just be like next year. Six books a month. Welcome to the 72 book year with Brad Meltzer.

[Tanya Moseley]

I promise you I'm taking a nap. I'm not doing anything until the next thriller. We have the Beatles coming out and then the next thriller, and that's it. I'm taking off for a year. I'm gone as well.

[Brad Meltzer]

You should. As well. You should.

[Tanya Moseley]

And come to Florida. I want to host you for an event here. That'll be fun.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yes, I need to. I'm going to. I'm coming.

[Tanya Moseley]

Especially from. I mean, you're in the cold. We got the warm.

[Brad Meltzer]

Yes. I'm taking you up on it.

[Tanya Moseley]

You got it.

[Brad Meltzer]

You can buy Brad Meltzer's Make Magic and also the JFK Conspiracy wherever you get your books.

[Sharon McMahon]

If you want to support your local bookshop, head to yours or go to bookshop.org I'll see you again soon.

[Brad Meltzer]

Thank you so much for listening to. Here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you.

[Sharon McMahon]

Consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson.

[Brad Meltzer]

We'll start.