← The Preamble
The Preamble
That Librarian with Amanda Jones
00:45:43
She has received death threats -- for years -- after speaking out against book bans, but librarian Amanda Jones refuses to back down.
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- [00:00]
Amanda Jones
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- [00:32]
Sharon McMahon
Easy.
- [00:32]
Amanda Jones
They're from DSW. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now.
- [00:38]
Sharon McMahon
You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer.
- [00:50]
Amanda Jones
To multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at.
- [00:57]
Sharon McMahon
Your DSW store or dsw.com, hello friends, welcome. Delighted, you can join me today. My guest is Amanda Jones, who has written a book about her experiences as a librarian fighting book bands. And my goodness, what an interesting conversation this is. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I'm really excited to be chatting with that librarian today. How are you, Amanda?
- [01:34]
Amanda Jones
I'm good. How are you?
- [01:36]
Sharon McMahon
I am really good. We have a mutual interest, first of all. Mutual interest in libraries. I love libraries. I've always loved libraries. I grew up a block from a library. The library made me who I am, quite honestly. And I hold libraries very close to my heart. I know they're important to you, too, otherwise you would not have gone into this. But libraries have been under attack recently. Is that a fair statement?
- [02:00]
Amanda Jones
Oh, you could say that, yes. Libraries and librarians and the authors and the characters and the stories have been under attack for several years now. The past few years have been really an onslaught of hate towards libraries and authors and stories.
- [02:15]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, you're right that throughout history we have seen historic time periods where people have been really intent on banning books. And this book is smut or this book is whatever. There are these sort of cyclical natures of moral panic surrounding books. But this moral panic is fueled by the Internet, and therein lies part of the problem is that the amount of hate is not relegated just to your town board meeting. It's not relegated just to some angry Patrons, there's no limit to the people who can find you and target you. So I guess I want to go back to the beginning and start talking a little bit about how you found yourself at the center of somewhat of a firestorm surrounding book bans in the United States.
- [03:05]
Amanda Jones
Yes, I did not mean to wind up in this center. Contrary to popular belief by the people in my town, we've had an extremist group in Louisiana that has been targeting libraries for a few years. And I had been monitoring the situation and then I saw them turn their sights on my community. And so I went to speak at the local public library board. At the time, I had 44 year resident library card holder till I was since I was 5 years old. And I just went to go speak about the agenda items which were content and signage. And I knew what was coming, but I tried to be fair. And in my speech I said, you know, I hope what I'm saying is not unfounded, but yeah, I gave a speech about censorship and the harmful effects and reiterated that we already have policies in place for anyone who wants to challenge a book. And next thing I know, I'm being targeted by two men and all of their friends and family, and they created some awful memes that were untrue about me that have been circulated thousands of times across the Internet.
- [04:04]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, like on page one of your book, I won't read the entire threat that somebody sent to you because it's too terrible. But it ends with, we know where you work and live. You have a large target on your back, large in all caps. Click, click. See you soon. And this happened two years ago. Amanda, these are not like 1950s KKK members, you know, like these sort of like violent extremist groups that we think of having existed in the American south in the past. This is happening in August of 2022.
- [04:40]
Amanda Jones
Yes. And they know where I live and work. I didn't identify that when I went and spoke. They know where I live. And as the extremists posted my address online with no thought to the fact that they were endangering myself and my family, all for the crime of giving a speech at the public library.
- [04:57]
Sharon McMahon
Why do you feel like these extremist groups have set their sights on you? What is it about you in particular that riles them up?
- [05:05]
Amanda Jones
Amanda, my theory is when I went and spoke at my public library border control meeting, I went as a resident, and that was in 2022. But the backstory is in 2021, I was named the national School librarian of the year 2020, I was named the Louisiana School Librarian of the Year. And at the time I spoke, I was also the president of the Louisiana association of School Librarians. So even though I was a member or am a member of my community, they saw me as someone that held a lot of weight and had a lot of accomplishments. And I think they thought to themselves, well, if we can silence her and get her to be quiet, everyone else will be too scared to speak up. And they actually were correct. For the first few months, other people were scared to speak out. Now that's changed, and I've helped build a coalition, a library alliance in our community, and we have dozens of members now that speak out. But they did accomplish their goals. For a few months there, people were scared to speak out. People were afraid to defend me publicly, because when they did, they started being attacked and targeted. And so I think they just thought, I'm going to silence the loudest voice or the voice that. I guess I didn't have any more knowledge than anybody there, but I guess I just stood out, and I was the first one to speak.
- [06:17]
Sharon McMahon
So, yeah, you having a position of leadership and recognition of being the School Librarian of the Year. You know, like, when you're googling for Louisiana school libraries, perhaps they're stumbling upon your name, and you even say in the book that this extremist group that's been targeting you, they say things that are just patently false. Like, you are trying to keep erotic and pornographic materials in the kids section. And you're like, excuse me, who is doing that? No one. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know a single librarian who's like, this is the porn section for the kindergarteners. It's not a thing. It's not a thing.
- [06:57]
Amanda Jones
That's the thing that angers me. It's just not a thing. But there's so much misinformation and disinformation that is being circulated on social media. As a professional librarian, we have collection development policies, and we use professional review sources. And at a school, for instance, I would not order books that are not professionally reviewed for the age group of my children. At our school and in a public library, even though public libraries service people from birth to death their whole lives, no one is putting inappropriate materials, sexually explicit pornography, any of that, in any children's sections. We don't even have pornography in the adult section. What they're objecting to tends to be stories by authors or with characters from the LGBTQ community, or stories about sexual health or reproduction or stories with Difficult topics. But those are not found in children's sections of libraries. They're professionally reviewed and they're placed in the appropriate categories. If it's written for teens, it's found in the teen section, and if it's written for adults, it's found in the adult section. And the thing about libraries is that we all have reconsideration policies, so patrons do have the right to ask the library, the librarians to relocate it. And they can give examples and reasons, and we weigh that heavily. But that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing mass challenges where people aren't reading the books and there's not sexually explicit material in these books and they're located in the correct sections of the libraries. It's just lies all over the Internet.
- [08:28]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah. When you look at the list of books from organizations like PEN America that keep track of these kinds of things, you look at the list of books that have been challenged or removed from school libraries in particular around the country, the thousands of titles that have been challenged, most of them either are authored by or feature characters of color. And some of them are things like, who is Sonia Sotomayor? Like a children's biography from a series that has hundreds of titles. You know, like, who is Jackie Robinson? These are literal children's biographies for, I don't know, you could tell me 8 year olds that do not have objectionable material in them. But for whatever reason, the person challenging that book is like, oh, she's a liberal justice. She doesn't belong in the children's section. Even though the COVID is a bobblehead version of the figure. You know what I mean? Can you speak to this from firsthand experience? Is this true?
- [09:27]
Amanda Jones
Yes, that is very true. And they just make things up. Like, for instance, I know the book I am Ruby Bridges has been challenged. It's a picture book for children. Recently. Recently I saw a book called the Art of this by Nicholas Smith, was challenged. There's nothing in that book. Nothing. You'll see books like Kitty Corn, which is about a kitten that wants to be a unicorn. It's a children's fantasy book. And somehow they've turned it into some type of. There's gender ideology and like, whatever. It's just made up. Even stories like in Tango Makes Three, which is about two real penguins. There's nothing sexually explicit in it. And people say, oh, that's ideology. And it's about two real penguins.
- [10:07]
Sharon McMahon
It's a true story.
- [10:08]
Amanda Jones
True story. And I, you know, and it's all a cover. I Mean, they are targeting the authors and the books and the stories. But it's also a part of a much larger picture in the movement to defund public libraries and to defund public schools by causing chaos and false allegations so that they will be taken over and you'll see charter schemes pushed and things like that. And they want to privatize libraries, and they're not quiet about it. U.S. representative Clay Higgins from Louisiana tweeted out a year or two ago, one day our libraries will be church owned. I mean, he's not hiding his agenda.
- [10:45]
Sharon McMahon
That's right. There's nothing that's stopping a church from starting their own library. Right. Like, go ahead and start your library and then your patrons, anyone who wants to, can go to your library. There's nothing that's stopping you from doing that. We're just saying that libraries serve a very important public good that cannot be replicated by any kind of private organization. Private organizations are always going to have different motives than a public library.
- [11:13]
Amanda Jones
Exactly. And even in my local public library board of control, one of our members stated that one day the library would be righteous and in God's will. He also said publicly, public, meaning that the libraries aren't there to serve minorities. They're there to serve the majority. And that is false. Everyone in the community pays taxes, and everyone deserves to be represented and see themselves and their families and the authors they love and their stories represented on the shelves of public libraries and in schools. And that does not mean by saying that, that. That means we are saying sexually explicit materials should be in those sections. That is not a thing. That is not a thing that is happening.
- [11:51]
Sharon McMahon
This is unrelated, but it's like the same argument that people have been making for years, that there are cat litter boxes in school bathrooms. I cannot tell you how many times I have debunked this absolute fallacy. It's not a thing. I'm curious your perspective on this. There is a movement against professionalism, a movement against. So when you say, I'm a professional librarian, I have a master's degree in library science, Professionals are vetting these books to make sure they are appropriate for the age group that they are shelved in. Those words are in and of themselves offensive to some people. Do you agree?
- [12:36]
Amanda Jones
Yeah. And you know, the thing you mentioned, the cat litter. My thing is, it's the same people that are attacking libraries are the ones with the same.
- [12:43]
Sharon McMahon
They're the same people.
- [12:44]
Amanda Jones
And as an educator of teenagers, I can tell you that if that was true, they all have cameras and falls like that would be pictures everywhere.
- [12:53]
Sharon McMahon
Precisely. Really? No pics. Not one pic on the Internet that is not obviously AI shocking.
- [13:00]
Amanda Jones
Yes. It's amazing how there's suddenly no proof of any of their allegations. There is a movement to defund professionalism. You see attacks on teachers and librarians to discredit us. And even in Louisiana we had nine anti library bills last legislative session and only one passed. And it was a lot of work to kill the eight other bills. But the one that did pass was a bill that said that public library directors in Louisiana no longer have to have a library science degree. And first of all, they said they did that so that they can remove library directors and install pastors and chaplains who have no experience over libraries. But it's devaluing the profession and saying that what's the point of a master's degree? And people that say these things have no idea the work that goes into schooling for this. We take entire classes on collection development and library policies. We don't just check out books, we do so much more than that. But they're trying to devalue our profession.
- [13:57]
Sharon McMahon
They totally are. And what they picture is, you describe one of these people who's in charge of this extremist group in Louisiana, you describe him as a cartoon villain. And it almost seems like they view you as a cartoon villain being like cackling maniacally and ordering porn for the six year old and then like foiled again. Like you checked it out and like you fooled the parents and the kids actually have porn. Like hehe. Like it almost seems like that is what they are picturing.
- [14:26]
Amanda Jones
And these people that have chosen to harass and attack me, they've never met me, we've never interacted online, we've never interacted in person. They don't know me. And then all of a sudden they're an authority of what I do in the library and what I am about and what I represent. And they misconstrue, they take things out of context, they make up completely fabricated lies about me. And the thing about educators and librarians, we don't go into this profession for fame, fortune, money with ulterior motives. We go into it because we love children, we love reading, we love books in the library, and we love our communities. We surely don't get paid a lot of money.
- [15:06]
Sharon McMahon
We're missing a few zeros in the paychecks.
- [15:09]
Amanda Jones
We go in it for service to our community. So for them to have community members turn around and just tell complete lies and harass me for a field I went into to service the community is just appalling and it's just disheartening to me.
- [15:25]
Sharon McMahon
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- [16:43]
C
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- [17:48]
Sharon McMahon
A little bit more about what it actually did to you, because, you know, I've certainly been the object of hate online. I've had some of these extremist groups target me and call me an ignorant pimp. Amanda. An ignorant pimp. And I was like, well, that is fascinating. I don't even know where one would get such insults from. And that's a tame nickname that we can say on a show like this. It doesn't include any of the expletives that both of us have been subjected to. Perhaps you even more pointedly, in your own local community. What does that do to somebody when you are targeted in that way? Yes, it's dismaying. Yes, it's upsetting. But what does that do to you personally?
- [18:36]
Amanda Jones
Well, there were two memes posted about me, and I won't go into exactly what it said, but basically suggested that I advocate teaching children about sex acts and giving children pornography and erotica. And I had my face on it and my full maiden name, everything. And it was a coordinated attack because both of the posts were done at the same time. And when I saw it, I opened up my phone and I saw that I cried. And I spent that entire weekend crying. I think I cried. Well, I don't think. I know. I cried so much that my eyes swelled shut and then my sinuses. I couldn't breathe out of my nose for a few days. I was devastated because it wasn't just these random people that I didn't know, which would be bad enough. It was that people I've known my entire life were commenting. People that I had been friends with were commenting, like, as if I couldn't see it and I couldn't turn it off. Some people say, oh, it was just on social media. No, people were screenshotting, and my phone was just blowing up with text messages. Have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen this? And the thing is, it wasn't just on the Internet. I go out in public and get called names. I've had people follow me around and record me and take pictures of me and told to go to hell and called awful names in public. So that first weekend was really bad. And let me be clear, it has not stopped. It's been two and a half years. They're still harassing me. But it took a very huge toll. I started having panic attacks. It was weeks and weeks of, like, the initial, before I realized I needed to stop looking at it and before I started asking people to not send me the messages. But I ended up losing 50 pounds. I lost chunks of hair. I had to take a medical leave of absence from work and I was in and out of the hospital for two months. I ended up having to have surgery and I had complications due to severe anemia and infections because of the shape my body was in from the stress. And it was just devastating. And not just for me. My grandmother, my 97 year old grandmother, they were commenting on her Facebook and my sisters, fortunately they didn't find my child's information to comment on her. She's a teenager. But it's been devastating. I still don't go out in public in my own town. I get groceries delivered when I have to travel because we're in a rural area. When I have to travel roads that are not inhabited, I have to carry protection for myself because I'm scared. I have dash cams, I installed security cameras. I'm scared for my life.
- [20:55]
Sharon McMahon
Amanda, I am so truly sorry that this happened and is continuing to happen to you, especially as somebody who just is a public servant, right? Like you went into this because you care about your community. And I'm so sorry to hear what has happened to you.
- [21:12]
Amanda Jones
See, and the thing is, it's not just me. I can name a librarian in every single state that this has happened to, multiple librarians in every single state for the crime of just saying libraries are for everyone and reiterating that. We already have policies and procedures in place and it's just devastating. I think the worst thing for me is it's been hard for myself, but seeing what they do to my friends and my colleagues. People are going to leave the profession, which is what they want, because eventually you have enough. I know librarians that were targeted, that were very prominent librarians at conferences and things. They were writing articles all the time. They've disappeared from the public eye. You have to stop doing what you love, which is librarianship and talking about books in libraries, because you're afraid that someone's going to come harm you or your family or the people that you work with. It's not fair. And they get away with this. They just make up these lies and they just get away with it and nothing is done.
- [22:06]
Sharon McMahon
That's part of the frustration too, is that there is no justice for the victim because free speech. And they haven't directly said, I'm going to come to your house tonight at midnight. And the police feel in many ways like their hands are tied or the police agree with what they're saying, but when they might want to do something about it, they Feel like, well, I don't see a crime that has been committed. I can ask them, hey, leave her alone. But they don't have any force to back that up with. And so it feels like to many people, the only option is to either shut up or take it.
- [22:44]
Amanda Jones
And I filed three police reports right at the beginning, before I realized they weren't going to do anything about it, Whether their hands were tied or whether they chose not to. I still have conflicting thoughts on that. But I decided I wasn't going to take it. And in the past two and a half years, I filed three lawsuits against people who have called me names like groomer and accused me of things that I'm not doing. But the thing is, it's so expensive.
- [23:08]
Sharon McMahon
Those lawsuits are expensive.
- [23:09]
Amanda Jones
Yes, I know. Just for myself, for the one lawsuit, because I just filed the other two. For the one lawsuit, I've spent $60,000 so far. And if I ultimately lose, I have to pay their court costs, too. And then you factor into that. I just filed two more because I'm tired of people calling me names and things and saying things that I'm not doing. And so it's very expensive. And so the average person cannot. And I'm privileged that I have a GoFundMe, so I'm okay. But not everybody has that. And I've had the privilege of having a platform in which I was able to write a book and tell about this, and I have the privilege of going to speak an interview, but a lot of people can't, and they do just have to take it. And it's not fair. It's truly not fair.
- [23:55]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, people don't realize that there's no, like, free lawsuits are us. Like, it's not small claims court where it's like, Sharon borrowed my hatchet and didn't return it, and I'm suing her for $250. This is not Judge Judy. Right. That's not what this is. Where you don't need a lawyer necessarily in order to file a big federal lawsuit in particular, you need lawyers who know what they're doing, who are accustomed to working within the federal court system, which is a different legal profession than somebody who's just representing someone in a divorce or a custody dispute or representing business interests. It's a very specialized legal skill to engage in federal litigation. And these people do not make $12 an hour. As you mentioned, you've spent $60,000 on one lawsuit so far. And one of the challenges here is that our method of dispute resolution in the United States is the courts. That's not true in other countries, but it is true in the United States. That is, by design, our method of dispute resolution. So if you want them to stop damaging your professional reputation, you want them to stop slandering your name, you either have to disappear from view, or you have to have the resources to do something about it. And even if somebody has a giant pile of cash, they may not feel like they want to continue to be the public face of a lawsuit. Like, it's just too much for them. It's just easier to disappear.
- [25:34]
Amanda Jones
It completely would have been easier to disappear. And I don't regret anything I've done. But every now and then I'm like, why am I allowing myself to be the community punching bag? But I just feel so strongly about this. And I remember I heard author Samira Ahmed say that you should use your power and privilege for purpose. And so I do have a platform, and I do have a GoFundMe. And I'm going to be in this fight as long as I can, you know, until the money runs out or it's resolved. And I'll say this in my lawsuit, the one I filed against the locals, I'm asking for a dollar and an apology. I'm not trying to seek huge amounts of money. I just want a dollar in an apology. And they could have ended this a long time ago, but they refuse.
- [26:17]
Sharon McMahon
That's fascinating. Yeah. Just like becoming a librarian. Filing this lawsuit is not a get rich quick scheme for you. You want them to stop and you want them to say, I was wrong to do that. And that's actually not asking for too much. That's really not.
- [26:33]
Amanda Jones
I don't think it is. Now, I did just recently file two federal lawsuits against a man that has been telling falsehoods about librarians for almost 20 years. And I've been a particular target of his for the past two and a half years. I did ask for compensatory damage from him. I had enough.
- [26:51]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, your life has been dramatically impacted.
- [26:55]
Amanda Jones
Yes, I've had enough of him. And I've had enough for all librarians because he does this to dozens of us. And so for that one, I did ask only because I filing it on behalf of myself and others. But, yeah, my local lawsuit is $an apology. And I don't think that's too much to ask. They're obviously wrong. The facts and the law show that they're wrong. But, you know, the court system's not always fair, and especially in local courts with elected officials and everything's. Political, especially in Louisiana.
- [27:25]
D
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- [27:26]
Amanda Jones
Are you tracking all our cars on Carvanho Value Tracker on all our devices prices? Yes Kristen, yes I am.
- [27:32]
D
While I've been looking for my phone.
- [27:33]
Amanda Jones
For in dax's domain we see all so we always know what our cars are worth. All of them. All of them. Value surge trucks up 3.9% that's a great offer. I know. Sell Sell. Track your car's value with Carvana Value Tracker today.
- [27:53]
D
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- [29:16]
Sharon McMahon
You also mentioned this too, that it's a myth that all librarians are just a bunch of like left wing extremists air quotes that many librarians in fact are not and we don't need to get into anybody's individual politics. But you'd even talk about in the book like, I grew up in Louisiana. I was raised with a certain political viewpoint, a political orientation. And so this idea idea that like, oh, outside left wing extremists are infiltrating our schools in an effort to indoctrinate the children, you're like, excuse me? No. I have lived here my whole life. I was raised by parents who would never have agreed with that. I don't agree with that. That's not who I am or what I am doing. It's a gross mischaracterization of the nature of librarianship.
- [30:10]
Amanda Jones
My favorite quote that I heard about me by an attorney, actually, he said, amanda Jones has joined the radical leftists to burn morals and common sense on the altar of wokeism. And I just. I was like, I didn't even know that I had an altar of wokeism. It was so ridiculous. I made a shirt that said that, and I wore it around town. But even my local senator posted that we have to end the indoctrination and the wokeism, the woke mind virus in our schools and libraries. And I'm thinking everybody that works in our school system and everybody that works in our public library, they're all from here. And if you look at the politics, it's not a thing. That's not real. I was raised Republican, you know, in Louisiana, Talk about this in the book Southern Baptist. And I was raised that we should all love one another, love thy neighbor as thyself, and champion the underdog. And do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And that the Constitution is key. And what I'm seeing for my community that raised me in these values, that's exactly what I'm doing. But they don't like it, so it's hypocritical.
- [31:16]
Sharon McMahon
That's a great point. That the values you were raised with are the ones you are trying to live out. But unfortunately, it appears as though things have changed for some other groups. And they now think that they're quote, unquote, crusade against the woke mind virus means that they do not have to abide by the sort of moral principles they were raised with. The idea of do unto others as you would want them to do unto you or the golden rule or love your neighbor as yourself, we're exempt from those because we're in the middle of a war. I would love to hear your perspective on that. But that's how it seems to me from where I sit, that they view this as warfare and all bets are off.
- [32:03]
Amanda Jones
That's exactly how they view it. And to me, I'm not in a war. I just want to protect our libraries. And I'm just trying to uphold the Constitution and our rights as American citizens and residents. And the irony that this truly happened. I had a woman tell me that God was going to wrap a millstone around my neck and drown me in the pits of hell. And then she turned around and said, we must think of the children and protect them. And I'm thinking, you just told me to go to hell. And then he started saying, we need to protect the children. What I think we need to protect the children from is online bullying and this hate rhetoric that these adults are doing in the name of protecting children. Because if you really wanted to protect children, you wouldn't behave in this manner and you wouldn't set forth these horrible examples. Which is why it is so important to me that even when I am told these things that I do not respond, I turn the other cheek. And I write about this in the book. As Michelle Obama said, when they go low, you go high, and it sucks. It's not what I want to say. I don't. I wanted to give them a piece of my mind, but I am the person thinking of the children. And so I respond with kindness and I try to show empathy and keep it to myself because I want to set a good example to the children. I'm the one thinking of the children, Right? Yeah.
- [33:20]
Sharon McMahon
Like if you were in a classroom and one child was being very mean to the other one, bullying the child, calling them names, telling them they were ugly or stupid or whatever, would your advice to that child be go ahead and kick them in shins and then threaten to steal their lunch and then tell them you're going to come to their house and shoot them?
- [33:40]
Amanda Jones
Right.
- [33:40]
Sharon McMahon
Who would give that advice to a child? Right. But somehow they're the ones that are protecting children. That makes no sense.
- [33:48]
Amanda Jones
Yes. And I worry a lot. And what I see is that the children in this day and age, because I teach children, are so much more loving and open and empathetic than these adults that are setting horrible examples. And so I do have hope for the future because our children are. Thankfully, they aren't like these adults. They're not doing these things, at least not at school. So it amazes me, the irony is the hypocrisy. And then when I have the, quote, unquote, audacity to stand up for myself, suddenly they're calling me a government bureaucrat, trying to stifle free speech. I mean, I'm championing free speech. I'm not a government bureaucrat. I'm a school librarian, and I'm a resident of my community, and I can speak out for my public library. And that doesn't make me some kind of wokest. Whatever it means, I'm standing up for the rights of all Americans.
- [34:43]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah. They don't understand that we can't both have free Speech and censorship, those two ideas are kind of opposed to each other. Now, there, of course, there are limits. Of course we can't go into a crowded theater and yell fire. Of course we can't stand in a TSA line and be like, I have a bomb in my bag. Of course we put appropriate books for children in the appropriate section in the school library. Of course there are limits to time, place, and manner restrictions when it comes to free speech. But you can't both accuse someone of censorship and also accuse them of putting too many resources in the library. They're not compatible ideas. Amanda.
- [35:22]
Amanda Jones
Well, and, you know, we have free speech, but we don't have the right to completely make up lies about people either. So when I filed my lawsuit, I wasn't trying to stifle their free speech. I was trying to stifle the blatant lies that they were telling about me that were damaging to my career and my reputation. I'm not teaching children about sex acts. I'm not providing children with pornography, and so to say so is a complete fabrication. And that is not covered in free speech.
- [35:50]
Sharon McMahon
One of the things I've always said, and I would love to hear your take on this, is that one of the ways people develop critical thinking skills is by being confronted with information they disagree with. With. How can you learn to critically think about any subject if you are only given information with which you agree you are not going to then critically examine that information in order to be critical thinkers, which I think most adults. If you said, do you think people should learn how to do critical thinking? Most adults would say yes. Even if they themselves are bad at it. They would say that they believe in the idea of critical thinking thinking. Right. But you cannot have a situation in which children are only given the quote, unquote, correct information according to you, and also develop critical thinking.
- [36:40]
Amanda Jones
They don't want them to be critical thinkers because if they're critical thinkers, they'll open their eyes and see that what the adults in their life are doing is wrong. They don't want critical thinkers. They want to indoctrinate everyone with their beliefs and not allow anyone to have access to different points of view.
- [36:57]
Sharon McMahon
They want children to think critically about you. That's what they think critical thinking is. They should be critical of the things I tell them to be critical of. They think criticism and critical thinking are the same.
- [37:09]
Amanda Jones
It's about control. It's about control and viewpoint control.
- [37:13]
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, totally. I want to know, from your perspective, why is it important that children have access, that adults have access to books in the library?
- [37:27]
Amanda Jones
Well, for starters, that's what libraries are for, to provide access to resources. And I hear a lot of people say it's not banned. You can go buy it on Amazon. Well, here's the thing. A lot of people can't. I mean, we send home children with food for the weekend because they won't eat over the weekend. They don't have Amazon money. But books have the ability to shape people, make them more empathetic, more understanding of the world around them. And books save lives. And people will laugh at that statement. Oh, how do books save lives? I've known plenty of people that were in abuse situations that didn't know that they were until they read a book and they were like, I didn't realize that growing up this way was not the way everybody had it and the way it was supposed to be. They make us think about important parts of history and our culture. And I write about this in the book. I grew up on Judy Blume, and I think about the lessons that I learned from Judy Blume on racism and puberty and bullying and all sorts of things. They shaped me to be the person that I am today, and I'm proud of the person I am today. But I, unfortunately, have taught many children that grew up and, as adults, took their own lives because they have been ostracized in our community for maybe being of a different color than everyone else in our community or from being a member of the LGBTQ community. And to me, if someone has the opportunity to read a book, to know that they're not alone and that there are people outside of our community that would not ostracize them and that would love them, some of those kids might still be alive today. So it's very important to me to make sure that all children and all people in the community have their stories represented on the shelves of libraries.
- [39:09]
Sharon McMahon
What would you say to somebody who feels like, I don't want kids reading books about gender ideology. I don't want kids reading books about teenage romantic relationships. I don't want kids to have access to that. Those ideas are harmful to children. What would you say to them?
- [39:26]
Amanda Jones
Well, I would say I do believe in parental rights. I am a parent myself. And so I would say, if you want to not have your child read books with characters or stories of people that you don't like, don't let your child read those. Be a parent, though. But you don't have the right to tell everybody else what their families can read. I do have students with two moms and two dads. I should take all the books out that might have a gay character in my book because one person objects to it because their child might read it just to have a conversation with me. And I'll help you and your child find the books that you want them, but you don't get to say what everybody else has access to, especially if it's a book that is appropriately written for the age and it's not anything sexually explicit. You can't remove a book because you don't like the ideas. That's viewpoint discrimination as protected under the Constitution and by Supreme Court precedent. What if we had a family from the LGBTQ community that said, I don't want my kid reading all the books with straight parents, so let's ban all those. It works both ways. And also, I will say this about the technology. Kids these days. They almost all of them have an iPad or a phone. And so the thought that a child is going into a library and they're going to search the entire collection for that one or two book that has two moms in it, and they're gonna be corrupted. They have phones in their hands. Even my six year old nephew knows how to circumvent parental controls on his phone because we've caught him doing it. So the idea that they're going to the library to find material when they have it at the palm of their hands, it's absurd. I'll say this. I taught a lesson on Internet safety and it was complained about by people who are the same ones complaining about the library books. So you can't win. So I don't even try to win with these people anymore. Foolishness is foolishness. At one point I would have had a conversation with them and said, let's talk about this. But it's beyond that now at this point with these people that harassed me. And so I just have to talk to everybody else, the people that are calm, irrational, and those people I am willing to have a conversation with. Sure, yeah.
- [41:29]
Sharon McMahon
What do you hope the reader of that librarian takes away? What do you hope when they close the last page that they take with them and tuck into their pocket?
- [41:38]
Amanda Jones
I hope that they will understand the importance of libraries to communities and the importance that libraries do not censor stories. And I hope that it calls them into action to pay attention to their local school boards and library border control meetings, because these people will sneak things in when you're not paying attention. And I hope people will start speaking out more. And I wrote this for myself and for all the other librarians and to tell my story and to tell what's happening. But I also wrote this for the calm, rational people in the world that truly want to understand what is happening and get to the bottom of it. And maybe they'll get off Facebook and social media and they'll read it and they'll find the truth. That's what I hope.
- [42:23]
Sharon McMahon
I love that. Thank you so much for being here today, Amanda. It was great to chat and I am cheering you on. And I firmly believe that libraries are the most democratic institution on earth. All of human knowledge is is available to you for free. You don't have to have taken the 101 class. You don't have to have Amazon money. You can learn anything your heart desires. And libraries have been valued by great Americans for centuries, going back to Benjamin Franklin starting his own lending library. Libraries have always been important to Americans and and long live the library.
- [43:06]
Amanda Jones
Thank you for having me.
- [43:07]
Sharon McMahon
You can find that librarian the Fight Against Book Banning in America wherever you buy your books. If you want to support a local bookshop, you can go to yours or head to bookshop.org I'll see you again soon. Thank you so much for listening to here's where it gets interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show that helps podcasters out out so much? I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McMahon. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.