Who is the REAL Benjamin Netanyahu? | History Of Israel's Prime Minister | With Anshel Pfeffer - History Uncensored

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[00:01]
Angel Pfeffer
Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.
[00:04]
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[00:08]
Angel Pfeffer
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[00:12]
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[00:15]
Angel Pfeffer
Pull yourself together.
[00:16]
Interviewer
We have work to do.
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[00:21]
Interviewer
That's all.
[00:22]
Promotional Voice
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[00:32]
Angel Pfeffer
There are moments when history speaks to us. This is one of them.
[00:38]
Interviewer
Is he confident that history will look kindly upon him? To absolve him of any actions that others might criticize him?
[00:44]
Angel Pfeffer
He wants to write his own history for him. I'm the person who's going to tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. 40 years I've been saying that Iran is a danger to Israel and a danger to the world. That is true.
[00:58]
Interviewer
He wants a vice grip on that narrative.
[01:00]
Angel Pfeffer
The Israel Palestine conflict of Netanyahu is a sideshow. The real thing is Iran.
[01:08]
Interviewer
He is Bibi the magician, king of Israel to his supporters, the butcher of Gaza, according to Turkey's president, and a war criminal. If you ask the New York mayor, a man wanted by the International Criminal Court over alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity charges Benjamin Netanyahu fighting fiercely, rejects no leader has shaped modern Israel for longer. Netanyahu was born about 17 months after the State of Israel itself. He's now governed it for nearly 19 years, almost a quarter of Israel's existence. Israel is geographically small but strategically enormous, the Middle East's dominant military power and a geopolitical fulcrum, if you like, connecting Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, the Gulf and the United States. Decisions taken in Jerusalem can reorder the region, draw America into war and send shocks through the global energy markets and trade routes. But the choices Netanyahu is making today in Gaza, against Iran, with America, and ahead of another Israeli election are better understood when you know the history that he believes he's living inside. A father who taught him that Jewish history was an endless cycle of tolerance, betrayal and catastrophe. A brother killed in action, whose death became both a a private trauma and a public vocation. Benjamin Netanyahu learned the power of daring action himself, serving in an elite commando unit. And he learned about television performance in America. Realising that controlling the story could be as decisive as controlling the battlefield, he returned from university in America to fight in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the surprise attack that destroyed Israel's belief that its intelligence services would always see disaster coming. 50 years later, that illusion was shattered again on October 7th. So what history made Benjamin Netanyahu and how much of the history unfolding now is being remade in his image? Few journalists have studied Netanyahu's life or observed his exercise of power more closely than economist, correspondent and biographer Angel Pfeffer.
[03:23]
Angel Pfeffer
Grandfather was a rather mid level functionary in the Zionist movement. His father was not a very successful historian. Nobody probably would have heard of either the father or the grandfather if it wasn't for the grandson. His father felt a deep resentment against the political estate. The academic establishment of those days felt that he had been somehow held back. And that was also one of the reasons in the telling of the Netanyahu family narrative, that they had to go and live in America because he couldn't find a job in Israeli academia at the time. His father taught him to call the people who were in power Bolsheviks that were very far, obviously very far from being Bolsheviks. But that was the word, the kind of slur that they used. And to this day, even though Netanyahu is now the longest serving prime minister of Israel, a total of almost 19 years, and his party has been in power for nearly half of Israel's existence, that feeling of, of a deep state, of an establishment which is hostile to him and hostile to people of his beliefs is still very much part both of his own character and his own, you know, his own mental process. And also something that he uses to bring together other groups which are made, which have been and perhaps still are, but in many cases are made to think that they're the underdogs even though they're in power and to stoke this fear and hatred of the other camp in Israeli politics, in living history, we're now so far from that period when Israel was ruled by the Labour Party, that it's probably for younger people, hard to think about it. It's not Israel that they see today, but Finitanya. I think it's still very present and he tries to still use that as his main rallying call.
[05:17]
Interviewer
Bibi is a middle child. The life and death of his brother Yoni had a particularly profound impact. Tell me about that relationship and how it formed the person that Benjamin Netanyahu would become.
[05:33]
Angel Pfeffer
As very often happens in families which emigrate, then there's a special bond that's created between brothers. And because Yoni and Bibi didn't want to move to America. And they very. You can see in the letters and interviews that they were very unhappy being torn from their childhood in Jerusalem, which for them it was just a big adventure living In Jerusalem in the 1950s and 6 and early 60s, they didn't want to go to America. The fact that they were transplanted into what for them was an alien culture made the only in this sort of unit that was very close to each other. And when they reached the. When they finished high school, which for Israelis is the age when you go to the army, they defied their parents. Their parents wanted them to stay with them in America and go to the colleges. Yoni was accepted to Harvard. Bibi was accepted to Yale. Both of them, instead of going to college in America, went back to Israel and joined the army. Bibi very much followed Yoni's path in that. So that was, I think, for them something which really brought them together. And you see from the letters that Yoni wrote to him that were collected after Yoni's death about how close he felt to Bibi. And perhaps they were closer to each other than to friends because they didn't really make friendships in high school in the US and they were cut off from their friends back in Israel. So that was a bond, I think that was very, very close. And certainly when Yoni was killed at the age of 30 and Bibi at the time, I think was 26, it was a hugely traumatic experience for him. Now, some people try and say this is also what pushed him to go into public life. I'm not sure. I think there was obviously this event in which Ion Netanyahu became sort of Israel's most prominent war hero because the Entebbe Mission, in which he was killed in 1976 was such a big affair and he was the only Israeli soldier killed there. So he kind of became the face of that. And because he was dead then, Bibi, who had also served in the same unit, in many ways became almost a proxy for his brother, appearing in lots of events and giving interviews and so on. He did have this sort of spotlight on him from a relatively young age, but I think that he would have gone into politics, into public life anyway. He was already, before Yoni's death, working sort of as a part time student lobbyist for Israel. He was studying then at MIT after he'd finished his army service, and he was being sent around Boston to give talks and to be part of Israel's public diplomacy operation as a sort of a part time lobbyist. And I think that shows that he was. That he was already on the path that he would continue and also after Yoni's death. But without a question, Yoni's death made the Netanyahu family a household name in Israel. And if the Netanyahu had, until Yoni's death, belonged to sort of a more marginal part of Israeli society, they were suddenly very much part of the mainstream. And there was many events held in which Yoni was sort of the symbol of Israeli fighters and warriors and so on. And since Yoni was the symbol, but he wasn't physically there, in many ways, that gave Bibi a platform.
[09:19]
Interviewer
You've mentioned the formative years that Bibi spent in the United States, but you also reject this cliche that some people say that he's half American, sort of very Americanized in his approach and ideology. What did that time in America contribute to the way that, that Bibi conducts himself and also how he engages with the United States today?
[09:41]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, he certainly believes that he understands America, in some cases better than Americans, in some cases better than American presidents. He talks about, constantly, boasts about how he has his instinctive understanding of America and the things that he learned both at MIT and afterwards working for the Boston Consultancy Group, even though he actually worked there for a very short period, as if that equipped him with incredible skills that no one else in Israeli politics have. And we saw how in the period when Barack Obama was president, we saw in some of the press conferences they gave together, Netanyahu almost lecturing Obama about American values and history. And obviously it didn't go down very well with Barack Obama, but it kind of shows you how Netanyahu does feel in, in many ways that he is, if not American, someone who does understand America. So he believes he understands America on a different level. And you do see that there are a lot of people who are big admirers of him in American political life, in other parts of American life. There is perhaps less today than in the past, but it certainly was a major circle of admirers of Netanyahu. I, I don't think it's correct to say that he's American simply because he, at crucial junctures of his life, decided that his fate is in Israel. At the age of 18, he had been accepted to Yale. He could have stayed in America, as some of his more distant family, relatives did, and he chose not to. He chose to return to Israel. He served in the, in the Israeli army for five years. So he chose that as a. To dedicate a chunk of his life to military service in general, when he could have just gone to Yale. As much as he learned in America and made contacts in America, and in many ways adopted American ways of doing politics. When he joined politics In Israel in 1980, 7, he basically imported the American methods of campaigning. Even so, I think that it's very clear to me that he's Israeli first before being American.
[12:04]
Interviewer
When do we get the first clues as to Benjamin Netanyahu's views on Palestinians and Palestine and how consistent has his approach remained over time?
[12:16]
Angel Pfeffer
If you go back to the very first televised appearance of Netanyahu, as far as we know, it's from a, some show on the local television channel in Boston, sort of a debate. I think it's called the Advocates. And that's from 1976 or 7, somewhere in the second half of the 70s. And it's about the Palestinian issue. There's two people from either side arguing over that issue of the Palestinian state. And when you watch Netanyahu there, and this is Netanyahu in his late 20s, so it's by now 50 years ago, it's like you're listening to the guy today. It's the same arguments, it's the same kind of way of making a case, blending history and politics and basically saying Israel and the Jewish people, the Jewish people returned to their homeland and that's what Israel is. And there's a unclear group which is not really a nation and they don't really have a historic right to the land. And actually they're being used by, as proxies by bigger forces than them, like this radical Islam. And at the time he was talking also about the Soviet Union and nowadays he'd be talking about Iran. And they're sort of being used, these poor, innocent, wayward Palestinians are being used by much stronger forces as a wedge against Israel's presence in the region. And as it is, they don't really have any real claim. And the Jews are the historic custodians or owners of the land and they've returned home. And anybody who believes in or promotes the Palestinian narrative is either ignorant of history or an anti Semite.
[14:10]
Interviewer
I think read you reflect before on this quote that it was somebody who knew Bibi well, I think Dan Meridor who said that Bibi is no racist, but that he will use racism when it's helpful to him. So is that also a factor in how he speaks about Palestinians?
[14:31]
Angel Pfeffer
Yeah, but I mean, when I, when I think when someone like Mary Doe characterized that they, you know, there's obviously there's different ways of saying whether someone's a racist and whether Netanyahu actually has antipathy towards Arabs. There are various Arab leaders Netanyahu gets along quite well with. So you could argue that perhaps it's not Specifically against Arabs or it's just against Palestinians. And is that racism? But the deeper thing is that I think what Mary Dow was talking about in that quote, in that interview I did with him was how Netanyahu will use anything in a political campaign. So if he thinks that what will bring voters back to Likud and Likud's allied parties and increase turnout is our feelings of racism towards Arab, he'll use that. If it's feelings of anger and hatred of Israelis against each other towards what Israelis perceive as being the left wing establishment, he'll use that. I mean, the idea that any other prime minister, any other candidates challenging him is dangerous for Israel and is weak and even treacherous is something that Netanyahu has used in his campaigns and we're beginning to see it now in the current election campaign. So it's, I think if I can kind of paraphrase what Meridor said, and I agree with it with Netanyahu, these things are instrumental. It's not that he is someone who has a specific hatred for Arabs or for any other group. It's just he'll use whatever he needs to use to get, to get elected or to stay in power.
[16:24]
Interviewer
On this point about essentially what's good for Netanyahu is good for Israel, which of course is relevant to the indictments and accusations against him. How real is that in his psychology? Do you think he genuinely has merged with the health and the success of Israel in his own mind?
[16:49]
Angel Pfeffer
Yes. I mean, it's, I think it's clear from every, every statement, every interview, you see it, you see just going through there. But let's be fair. Every politician, every leader has some of that ego. I mean, the reason that you and I are not in politics is we don't necessarily think that we know what's best for everyone and everyone. And if we're not leaders of our countries, then our countries are in trouble. I mean, that is what propels people to, on that, I think, quite difficult path to become leaders of their country. Very few people get all the way. But I think you do need that level of ego and to merge your country's national interests with your own political personal interest to get to that point where you can be a prime minister or a president. It's not something strange in politicians. I think Netanyahu takes it to a level that we rarely see in Olipod. The fact that he can't bear the fact that the idea of resigning, the fact that every time he's lost and he has, you know, this is Kind of tendency to seem as a political winner. He's lost quite. He's lost quite a few elections. But the burning urge to come back after every time he's lost, the fear to stay on the wheel constantly, that is very much part of him being convinced that if he's not the leader of Israel, then Israel is in mortal danger. And Even something like October 7th, which is almost inarguably the biggest tragedy certainly in the last 50 years, since the Yom Kippur War, which was 50 years before that, the biggest failure, the biggest security setback, calamity, every word that we could use for that is simply unclear to him. And it's clear to even those who are still voting for him because their tribal allegiance is to Likud and Likud's camp. It's hard to find someone in Israel who won't accept that that was something that happened on Bibi's watch and very much part as a result of his long term policies. He can't accept that. He can't think. It's not that he says these things just for show when he says no. Actually, in the last three years I've incredibly improved Israel's strategic situation. I've redrawn the map of the Middle east and Israel is more strong and secure than ever. He believes that and he believes that it's all thanks to him.
[19:40]
Interviewer
You can also see how the historical context of his life being in parallel to that of the Israeli state also feeds this idea of being impossible to disentangle yourself from its future. I'd like to talk to you about Iran because you've written how Netanyahu likes an external enemy and of course it was Soviet power and then Arab terrorism. Now the focus appears to be Iran, or one of the main ones is what's happening now a culmination of his personal ideology and approach towards Iran.
[20:22]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, Nathaniel did not invent Iran as Israel's enemy. I mean that until 1979, until the Islamic revolution, Israel and Iran were close allies. And then there was the revolution and then Khomeini kicked out the Israeli diplomats and basically established the destruction of Israel as an aim of the Iranian state. Now you could argue how possible that is and how much of a priority that is for the Iranians. But before Netanyahu came on the scene of Israeli politics, Iran was already. Iran had pronounce itself Israel's mortal enemy. So Netanyahu did not invent that. The question is, how much does Netanyahu use that to promote himself, to promote his own policies and Prioritize that over other things and basically say everything should be about Iran and we don't and anything else is a distraction. And I think that's really where you see the way Netanyahu prefers. In the same way Netanyahu wants to see himself and his, his history and his family's history in this broad historical context. The same thing is the way that he tries to frame his policies in the broadest geopolitical context possible. So the Israel, Palestine conflict of Netanyahu is a sideshow because the Palestinians aren't even a country. He certainly downgrades them. They're not even a nation. It's something which for Israel is a minor irritant, it's a nuisance. But it's not the real thing. The real thing is Iran. And that is the most, that's the existential threat, that's his life's mission. And it's not just Netanyahu prioritizing Iran over solving the, or dealing with the Palestinian conflict. It's also when it comes to other domestic issues. So there's a famous quote when Netanyahu had to respond to a cost of living crisis and the housing crisis crisis. And he said, these are all very important things and we're going to deal with them. But at the same time we don't forget life itself and life itself is standing up. So yeah, and to this day that word in Hebrew, life itself is something that Israelis use to mock Netanyahu. Even some of them support him and his sort of one minded focus on Iran. Now what happened? By now we've got more than one war with Iran. You've got in 2024, you've got two exchanges of Iranian missiles in Israel responding with airstrikes. And then you've got the 12 day war last June and the war that we've just had now with Iran. It's very difficult to kind of go into that long process of by now nearly 50 years of enmity from the Iranian Islamic Republic towards Israel and work out, you know, when did we get to that point? Then there's actual war. And how much of Netanyahu, how much of that is Netanyahu? And was this something that was inevitable now, when Israel went to war against Iran, it was using equipment, planes and missiles that had been designed and developed not under Netanyahu, and they'd been designed and developed very much for a war with Iran. So it's not just Netanyahu, it's other Israeli prime ministers who saw that as being something that Israel needs to focus on. And that's one thing I'm trying to do in a new book I'm writing now is kind of try and drill down and work out how that dynamic which eventually led to this war between Israel and Iran, how that worked out. And Ozzy Netanyahu is a huge part of it. At the same time, he didn't invent this enmity between, between Iran and Israel. It was something that did begin with the Iranian Islamic Revolution. And to try and, and yes, I think Netanyahu certainly prioritizes over everything else and made it into something which would be almost the be all and end all of his policies. And ultimately when you see what happened on October 7, which was not done by Iran, I mean Iran did obviously helped pay for some of Hamas's weapons and gave Hamas support. But they weren't the only supporter of Hamas. And Hamas got support from other places and also got support from the fact that Netanyahu sort of allowed them to build themselves in Gaza as a way of splitting the Palestinians and the fact that Netanyahu under his direction, even though it is the failure of the intelligence services, the Israeli intelligence were looking at Iran while under their noses in Gaza, Hamas were planning this massive attack. So certainly Netanyahu's prioritizing of Iran over anything else has been a failure because it's distracted Israel from much more immediate threats. And if you look at the way that he's built over so many years, almost 50 years, his attitude both towards the Palestinian conflict and towards Iran as a threat, you can see that what happened on October 7th was basically his entire concept of Iran is the main thing. The Palestinians are a side issue that blew up in Israel's face. The 1200 Israelis who were massacred on October 7th weren't killed by Iranians, they were killed by Palestinians. They were killed by Hamas, which is a threat Netanyahu downgraded as a strategic decision, as conscious that we can allow Hamas to remain on our border because A, that helps us split the Palestinian Palestinians in different groups, which is good because that reduces pressure on us to solve the conflict, reach some kind of resolution with the Palestinians and B, because Hamas are not important, what's really important is Iran and those concepts. There's a multiple failure that led to the October 7th massacre, but ultimately it's Netanyahu's strategic concept going back decades which led to that moment.
[26:38]
Interviewer
We've spoken about how politicians tend to have inflated senses of their own self importance, but also beyond the state of Israel itself. Taking Iran into account, what does Netanyahu see as his historical global role. Like, we could talk about the geopolitics and the realpolitik, but in terms of like theologically, ideologically, philosophically, what is Israel's role in the world?
[27:09]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, Netanyahu has always said that he wants to be seen as Israel's protector. That's that, that's what he wants to be remembered as. But when you look at the way he talks, and certainly when he talks in English to a global audience, and he's very much in that Churchillian mindset that he thinks I'm the person who's gonna tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. And Israel and I may be the leader of a country of only 10 million, 10 million people, but actually we're so much more important because I'm leading it. And I'm telling you this is what the world needs to be looking at. This is what's threatening the west. And this is how we are the vanguard of the West. And we're not fighting on our own. We're fighting on behalf of all of you people in west who maybe don't understand what's happening and don't appreciate us enough. And you know, he constantly harks back to that point where Britain was fighting on its own against Nazi Germany before America became part of it, and Hitler and Churchill was sort of leading Britain at the time and he, you know, like. And once again, he's not that different from many politicians. Many politicians have Churchillian complexes. I think not just in Britain, but certainly in Britain we've seen that with quite a few prime ministers.
[28:28]
Interviewer
The way that, yes, the most common
[28:31]
Angel Pfeffer
complex, I'd say, yeah, so Netanyahu is a really severe case. So, you know, if a British prime minister, you could say has some kind of justification of sort of coming in Churchill's footsteps, Israel is a much smaller country than Britain. At the time, at least when Churchill was there, Britain was still some kind of a world power, an imperial power. Now it's obviously a third rate power at best, but net. And in that way there is something kind of. We talked before about the American side of his character. There is, I think at some point a moment where he says to himself, if I actually was American, I would be the President of America. If I was working on a bigger stage than just small country Israel, then I would be the leader of a world power or I'd be a billionaire and I'd be an Elon Musk. You know, that idea that he's a great person is something that first of all he believes in it. And he's in this echo chamber of people who are constantly saying that to him. And so he's not going to let Israel, the fact is a small country and it's not a major power, certainly in many ways does punch above its weight, but he's not going to let that stand in his way of being one of the main world leaders. And when you actually look at the global stage today, he is one of the most recognizable world leaders there is. There isn't any other leader of a 10 million population country that is more here. Netanyahu is probably better known around the world than the Prime Minister of Britain and the current chancellor of Germany. And I can name a list of pretty serious countries where Bibi is probably more well known now than Delhi. And that's partly because he's been around for so long, but also he's built up this idea of himself being such a major figure that even those who don't like him and don't support his ideas and so on, some of them see him as this demonic figure, but he is this larger than life figure in the sense that he occupies a much bigger space than any other leader of a small country does.
[30:49]
Interviewer
Is he confident that history will look kindly upon him to absolve him of any actions that others might criticize him for?
[30:55]
Angel Pfeffer
To paraphrase Castro, that's a great question. Because on the one hand, I'm sure he thinks that history should look kindly on him. And on the other hand, he's, as someone who grew up in that internal politics between historians, he probably doesn't trust the historians do that enough. And that's why he's already written two memoirs in which he kind of explains his self and his life. And that's why he's also, like I said, someone who tried to get his cooperation. He doesn't cooperate with biographers. Not even those who are friendly, I mean, with me could always say, well, you're hostile, and so on. But he doesn't. So you know, he, there have been, I know of various writers, journalists, researchers who've tried to get his cooperation to write biographies. And they're people who do, you know, who, who admire him. And he, and he wouldn't work with them. He insisted on writing his biography instead of me write it. You know, he had, he obviously had someone helping him with the writing, but
[32:01]
Interviewer
he wants a vice grip on that narrative.
[32:05]
Angel Pfeffer
He wants to write his own history for him. It's extremely important that history. And that's also one of the reasons why he can never leave because if you need to be vindicated as the greatest leader, as the Churchill of our times, as Israel's savior, and as we know, history never ends. You never finish the job. But he can't leave, because if he leaves, then the historic record isn't fit. And, you know, he's still trying, you know, and obviously because October 7th caused so much damage to his image as Israel's protector, then he has an even greater need to remain now. And also, if he leaves now, he'll leave. And there will be a national commission of inquiry into October 7, which will find lots of things damning about him. He'll still have his corruption cases, which will be much more difficult for him to fight as a private citizen. So the epitaph to Netanyahu will be a bad one. He realizes that, which is why he can't leave. If he leaves, then he's going to let someone else write his history. Now, you're a history podcast, so you know that ultimately nobody writes their own history. But he's vain enough to believe that he can write his own history.
[33:24]
Interviewer
Angel, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. It's the goal of this show to uncover the history behind today's headlines. Those deeper patterns of power, geography, empire, and human nature that are shaping the world around us. So if you do want to understand not just what happened, but why it happened and what it tells us about what's likely to come next, you are in the right place. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. It makes a huge difference to the channel. It's at this stage. And it also means, hopefully you'll see the world differently and everything will make a lot more sense. See you next time.
[34:02]
Angel Pfeffer
I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the Bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. No, stop. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned, but we have each other. FX is the Bear. The final season, all episodes now streaming on Disney plus.

Summary8 min read

History Uncensored – Episode Summary

Podcast: History Uncensored
Episode: “Who is the REAL Benjamin Netanyahu? | History Of Israel’s Prime Minister”
Host: Wake Up Productions (Interviewer: Bianca Nobilo)
Guest: Anshel Pfeffer (Netanyahu’s biographer, The Economist correspondent)
Date: August 6, 2026

Overview

This episode explores the life, legacy, and underlying psychological and historical forces shaping Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving Prime Minister. Host Bianca Nobilo interviews Anshel Pfeffer, Netanyahu’s leading biographer, to uncover the real factors driving Netanyahu’s worldview, political style, and impact on Israeli and global affairs. Through an examination of family trauma, ideology, historical trauma, and the machinery of power, the episode dissects how Netanyahu’s personality, experiences, and narrative-building have shaped modern Israel and its place in the world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Netanyahu’s Personal Narrative and Historical Self-Image

Narrative Control:
Netanyahu is described as obsessively controlling his own story, seeing himself as the one to define the threats facing Israel and the world.
- Anshel Pfeffer (00:43): “He wants to write his own history for him. I'm the person who's going to tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. 40 years I've been saying that Iran is a danger to Israel and a danger to the world. That is true.”
Historical Parallelism:
Netanyahu identifies with the history of Israel, his life and the state’s history running in parallel. He applies a singular vision of historic cycles (tolerance, catastrophe) and sees his mission as existential.
- Interviewer (01:08): “No leader has shaped modern Israel for longer... Netanyahu was born about 17 months after the State of Israel... He's now governed it for nearly 19 years, almost a quarter of Israel's existence.”

Family Influence and Yoni Netanyahu’s Legacy

Family Outsider Complex:
Netanyahu’s father felt marginalized in Israel’s academic and political elite, instilling in Netanyahu suspicion toward the “establishment” and the perpetual posture of outsider/underdog, despite his many years in power.
- Anshel Pfeffer (03:23): “His father felt a deep resentment... That was one of the reasons in the telling of the Netanyahu family narrative that they had to go and live in America... To this day... that feeling of a deep state, of an establishment which is hostile to him... is still very much part... of his own character... something that he uses to bring together other groups... to stoke this fear and hatred of the other camp in Israeli politics.”
Brother’s Influence & Trauma:
The special bond and traumatic loss of his brother, Yoni Netanyahu—killed during the 1976 Entebbe raid—placed Netanyahu in a national spotlight and cemented a mission-driven, militarist public persona.
- Anshel Pfeffer (05:32): “When Yoni was killed... it was a hugely traumatic experience... Yoni’s death made the Netanyahu family a household name in Israel... since Yoni was the symbol, but he wasn’t physically there, in many ways, that gave Bibi a platform.”

American Experience and Identity

Misconceptions of “Americanization”:
Netanyahu is not “half-American” but feels he innately understands American culture and uses this to his political advantage—while at the same time deeply committed to Israeli identity and destiny.
- Anshel Pfeffer (09:40): “He certainly believes that he understands America, in some cases better than Americans... He lectures American leaders... but he’s Israeli first before being American.”

Views on Palestinians and Consistency of Approach

Long-standing Attitude:
Netanyahu’s scepticism and opposition to a Palestinian state have been consistent and publicly articulated since his earliest television appearances in the 1970s. He frames Palestinians as an artificial nation manipulated by external actors.
- Anshel Pfeffer (12:16): “When you watch Netanyahu there... it’s like you’re listening to the guy today. It's the same arguments... basically saying Israel and the Jewish people... returned to their homeland... [Palestinians] not really a nation... being used… as proxies by bigger forces... at the time [the Soviets], now [Iran].”
Instrumental Use of Racism and Polarization:
Netanyahu deploys divisive rhetoric strategically, not from personal animus. Whether stoking anti-Arab (or anti-left) sentiments, he frames opponents as weak or treacherous to rally his base.
- Anshel Pfeffer (14:31): “Netanyahu will use anything in a political campaign... these things are instrumental. It’s not that he is someone who has a specific hatred for Arabs... it's just he'll use whatever he needs to use to get elected or to stay in power.”

Merging of Personal Interest with Israel’s Destiny

Self-Identification with Israeli State:
Netanyahu conflates his fate with that of Israel. The idea that his departure would spell disaster is central to his psychology.
- Anshel Pfeffer (16:49): “Netanyahu takes it to a level that we rarely see... The fact that he can't bear the idea of resigning... is very much part of him being convinced that if he's not the leader of Israel, then Israel is in mortal danger.”
October 7th and Policy Failure:
The prioritization of Iran (at the expense of ignoring dangers like Hamas) directly contributed to the October 7 massacre—a criticism even his supporters recognize.
- Anshel Pfeffer (20:22): “Netanyahu did not invent Iran as Israel's enemy... but he certainly prioritizes Iran over everything else... And ultimately... what happened on October 7th was basically his entire concept of Iran is the main thing... blew up in Israel’s face.”

Iran as Existential Threat

Netanyahu’s Singular Focus:
Portrays Iran as the existential challenge, relegating the Palestinian conflict to a secondary nuisance—framing Israel as a bulwark for the West.
- Anshel Pfeffer (20:22): “The real thing is Iran... that's the existential threat, that's his life's mission... his one minded focus on Iran... distracted Israel from much more immediate threats.”

Global Legacy and Historical Greatness

Churchillian Complex:
Netanyahu sees his role as an outsized, world-historical one, akin to Churchill; sees Israel as the front line, defending Western civilization.
- Anshel Pfeffer (27:08 & 28:30): “He wants to be remembered as Israel’s protector... in that Churchillian mindset... I'm telling you this is what the world needs to be looking at... we're the vanguard of the West... And he has a really severe case of Churchill complex.”
Global Recognition:
Despite leading a small country, Netanyahu is one of the “most recognizable world leaders,” a product both of his longevity and self-promotion.
- Anshel Pfeffer (30:48): “He is this larger than life figure in the sense that he occupies a much bigger space than any other leader of a small country does.”

Obsession with Historical Judgment and Narrative Control

Writing His Own History:
Netanyahu is described as distrustful of historians, writing not one but two memoirs—refusing to cooperate with any biographer, even friendly ones.
- Anshel Pfeffer (30:55): “He’s already written two memoirs... he doesn't cooperate with biographers... he wants a vice grip on that narrative.”
The Need to Stay in Power:
His drive to control history and avoid negative judgment keeps him clinging to power; leaving office would mean relinquishing the narrative and facing inquiries and corruption charges.
- Anshel Pfeffer (32:04): “He wants to write his own history for him. It's extremely important that history. And that's also one of the reasons why he can never leave because if you need to be vindicated as the greatest leader... you never finish the job. But he can't leave, because if he leaves... the historic record isn't fit.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

“He wants to write his own history for him. I'm the person who's going to tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. 40 years I've been saying that Iran is a danger to Israel and a danger to the world. That is true.” – Anshel Pfeffer (00:43)
“Netanyahu will use anything in a political campaign... these things are instrumental. It's not that he is someone who has a specific hatred for Arabs... it's just he'll use whatever he needs to use to get, to get elected or to stay in power.” – Anshel Pfeffer (14:31)
“Netanyahu takes it to a level that we rarely see... he's convinced that if he's not the leader of Israel, then Israel is in mortal danger.” – Anshel Pfeffer (16:49)
“And ultimately… what happened on October 7th was basically his entire concept of Iran is the main thing… blew up in Israel’s face.” – Anshel Pfeffer (24:52)
“He wants to be remembered as Israel’s protector... he’s very much in that Churchillian mindset... We're not fighting on our own. We're fighting on behalf of all of you people in the West who maybe don't understand what's happening and don't appreciate us enough.” – Anshel Pfeffer (27:08)
“He wants a vice grip on that narrative.” – Interviewer (32:01)

Important Segments & Timestamps

Netanyahu and narrative control: (00:32–01:08)
Family history, outsider complex: (03:23–05:16)
Brother Yoni’s influence: (05:16–09:18)
Netanyahu’s American years: (09:18–12:03)
Early views on the Palestinians: (12:03–14:09)
Instrumental use of division: (14:09–16:23)
Self and Israel merged: (16:23–19:40)
Iran as existential threat and consequence: (19:40–26:38)
Netanyahu’s global Churchill complex: (26:38–30:48)
Obsession with historic record, refusal to leave power: (30:48–33:23)

Tone & Style

The tone is analytical, probing, and layered—both the interviewer and Pfeffer challenge common narratives and clichés, seeking nuance while emphasizing deep structural and psychological dynamics. Pfeffer in particular is precise, unsentimental, and occasionally sardonic in his assessments.

Conclusion

The episode exposes Benjamin Netanyahu not merely as a politician, but as a figure who has deeply internalized and shaped Israeli history, viewing himself as both destiny’s agent and historic storyteller. The themes of legacy, trauma, and narrative control illuminate why Netanyahu acts as he does on both the national and world stage—and why, as Anshel Pfeffer argues, “he can never leave.” Listeners come away with a richer understanding of how personal psychology, history, and myth intertwine in the making (and remaking) of the Middle East and global politics.

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Transcript38 lines

[00:01]
Angel Pfeffer
Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.
[00:04]
Promotional Voice
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[00:08]
Angel Pfeffer
We are digital, we are downloadable, we are streamable.
[00:12]
Promotional Voice
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[00:15]
Angel Pfeffer
Pull yourself together.
[00:16]
Interviewer
We have work to do.
[00:17]
Promotional Voice
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[00:21]
Interviewer
That's all.
[00:22]
Promotional Voice
Get Runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney and Hulu. Rated PG 13.
[00:32]
Angel Pfeffer
There are moments when history speaks to us. This is one of them.
[00:38]
Interviewer
Is he confident that history will look kindly upon him? To absolve him of any actions that others might criticize him?
[00:44]
Angel Pfeffer
He wants to write his own history for him. I'm the person who's going to tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. 40 years I've been saying that Iran is a danger to Israel and a danger to the world. That is true.
[00:58]
Interviewer
He wants a vice grip on that narrative.
[01:00]
Angel Pfeffer
The Israel Palestine conflict of Netanyahu is a sideshow. The real thing is Iran.
[01:08]
Interviewer
He is Bibi the magician, king of Israel to his supporters, the butcher of Gaza, according to Turkey's president, and a war criminal. If you ask the New York mayor, a man wanted by the International Criminal Court over alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity charges Benjamin Netanyahu fighting fiercely, rejects no leader has shaped modern Israel for longer. Netanyahu was born about 17 months after the State of Israel itself. He's now governed it for nearly 19 years, almost a quarter of Israel's existence. Israel is geographically small but strategically enormous, the Middle East's dominant military power and a geopolitical fulcrum, if you like, connecting Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, the Gulf and the United States. Decisions taken in Jerusalem can reorder the region, draw America into war and send shocks through the global energy markets and trade routes. But the choices Netanyahu is making today in Gaza, against Iran, with America, and ahead of another Israeli election are better understood when you know the history that he believes he's living inside. A father who taught him that Jewish history was an endless cycle of tolerance, betrayal and catastrophe. A brother killed in action, whose death became both a a private trauma and a public vocation. Benjamin Netanyahu learned the power of daring action himself, serving in an elite commando unit. And he learned about television performance in America. Realising that controlling the story could be as decisive as controlling the battlefield, he returned from university in America to fight in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the surprise attack that destroyed Israel's belief that its intelligence services would always see disaster coming. 50 years later, that illusion was shattered again on October 7th. So what history made Benjamin Netanyahu and how much of the history unfolding now is being remade in his image? Few journalists have studied Netanyahu's life or observed his exercise of power more closely than economist, correspondent and biographer Angel Pfeffer.
[03:23]
Angel Pfeffer
Grandfather was a rather mid level functionary in the Zionist movement. His father was not a very successful historian. Nobody probably would have heard of either the father or the grandfather if it wasn't for the grandson. His father felt a deep resentment against the political estate. The academic establishment of those days felt that he had been somehow held back. And that was also one of the reasons in the telling of the Netanyahu family narrative, that they had to go and live in America because he couldn't find a job in Israeli academia at the time. His father taught him to call the people who were in power Bolsheviks that were very far, obviously very far from being Bolsheviks. But that was the word, the kind of slur that they used. And to this day, even though Netanyahu is now the longest serving prime minister of Israel, a total of almost 19 years, and his party has been in power for nearly half of Israel's existence, that feeling of, of a deep state, of an establishment which is hostile to him and hostile to people of his beliefs is still very much part both of his own character and his own, you know, his own mental process. And also something that he uses to bring together other groups which are made, which have been and perhaps still are, but in many cases are made to think that they're the underdogs even though they're in power and to stoke this fear and hatred of the other camp in Israeli politics, in living history, we're now so far from that period when Israel was ruled by the Labour Party, that it's probably for younger people, hard to think about it. It's not Israel that they see today, but Finitanya. I think it's still very present and he tries to still use that as his main rallying call.
[05:17]
Interviewer
Bibi is a middle child. The life and death of his brother Yoni had a particularly profound impact. Tell me about that relationship and how it formed the person that Benjamin Netanyahu would become.
[05:33]
Angel Pfeffer
As very often happens in families which emigrate, then there's a special bond that's created between brothers. And because Yoni and Bibi didn't want to move to America. And they very. You can see in the letters and interviews that they were very unhappy being torn from their childhood in Jerusalem, which for them it was just a big adventure living In Jerusalem in the 1950s and 6 and early 60s, they didn't want to go to America. The fact that they were transplanted into what for them was an alien culture made the only in this sort of unit that was very close to each other. And when they reached the. When they finished high school, which for Israelis is the age when you go to the army, they defied their parents. Their parents wanted them to stay with them in America and go to the colleges. Yoni was accepted to Harvard. Bibi was accepted to Yale. Both of them, instead of going to college in America, went back to Israel and joined the army. Bibi very much followed Yoni's path in that. So that was, I think, for them something which really brought them together. And you see from the letters that Yoni wrote to him that were collected after Yoni's death about how close he felt to Bibi. And perhaps they were closer to each other than to friends because they didn't really make friendships in high school in the US and they were cut off from their friends back in Israel. So that was a bond, I think that was very, very close. And certainly when Yoni was killed at the age of 30 and Bibi at the time, I think was 26, it was a hugely traumatic experience for him. Now, some people try and say this is also what pushed him to go into public life. I'm not sure. I think there was obviously this event in which Ion Netanyahu became sort of Israel's most prominent war hero because the Entebbe Mission, in which he was killed in 1976 was such a big affair and he was the only Israeli soldier killed there. So he kind of became the face of that. And because he was dead then, Bibi, who had also served in the same unit, in many ways became almost a proxy for his brother, appearing in lots of events and giving interviews and so on. He did have this sort of spotlight on him from a relatively young age, but I think that he would have gone into politics, into public life anyway. He was already, before Yoni's death, working sort of as a part time student lobbyist for Israel. He was studying then at MIT after he'd finished his army service, and he was being sent around Boston to give talks and to be part of Israel's public diplomacy operation as a sort of a part time lobbyist. And I think that shows that he was. That he was already on the path that he would continue and also after Yoni's death. But without a question, Yoni's death made the Netanyahu family a household name in Israel. And if the Netanyahu had, until Yoni's death, belonged to sort of a more marginal part of Israeli society, they were suddenly very much part of the mainstream. And there was many events held in which Yoni was sort of the symbol of Israeli fighters and warriors and so on. And since Yoni was the symbol, but he wasn't physically there, in many ways, that gave Bibi a platform.
[09:19]
Interviewer
You've mentioned the formative years that Bibi spent in the United States, but you also reject this cliche that some people say that he's half American, sort of very Americanized in his approach and ideology. What did that time in America contribute to the way that, that Bibi conducts himself and also how he engages with the United States today?
[09:41]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, he certainly believes that he understands America, in some cases better than Americans, in some cases better than American presidents. He talks about, constantly, boasts about how he has his instinctive understanding of America and the things that he learned both at MIT and afterwards working for the Boston Consultancy Group, even though he actually worked there for a very short period, as if that equipped him with incredible skills that no one else in Israeli politics have. And we saw how in the period when Barack Obama was president, we saw in some of the press conferences they gave together, Netanyahu almost lecturing Obama about American values and history. And obviously it didn't go down very well with Barack Obama, but it kind of shows you how Netanyahu does feel in, in many ways that he is, if not American, someone who does understand America. So he believes he understands America on a different level. And you do see that there are a lot of people who are big admirers of him in American political life, in other parts of American life. There is perhaps less today than in the past, but it certainly was a major circle of admirers of Netanyahu. I, I don't think it's correct to say that he's American simply because he, at crucial junctures of his life, decided that his fate is in Israel. At the age of 18, he had been accepted to Yale. He could have stayed in America, as some of his more distant family, relatives did, and he chose not to. He chose to return to Israel. He served in the, in the Israeli army for five years. So he chose that as a. To dedicate a chunk of his life to military service in general, when he could have just gone to Yale. As much as he learned in America and made contacts in America, and in many ways adopted American ways of doing politics. When he joined politics In Israel in 1980, 7, he basically imported the American methods of campaigning. Even so, I think that it's very clear to me that he's Israeli first before being American.
[12:04]
Interviewer
When do we get the first clues as to Benjamin Netanyahu's views on Palestinians and Palestine and how consistent has his approach remained over time?
[12:16]
Angel Pfeffer
If you go back to the very first televised appearance of Netanyahu, as far as we know, it's from a, some show on the local television channel in Boston, sort of a debate. I think it's called the Advocates. And that's from 1976 or 7, somewhere in the second half of the 70s. And it's about the Palestinian issue. There's two people from either side arguing over that issue of the Palestinian state. And when you watch Netanyahu there, and this is Netanyahu in his late 20s, so it's by now 50 years ago, it's like you're listening to the guy today. It's the same arguments, it's the same kind of way of making a case, blending history and politics and basically saying Israel and the Jewish people, the Jewish people returned to their homeland and that's what Israel is. And there's a unclear group which is not really a nation and they don't really have a historic right to the land. And actually they're being used by, as proxies by bigger forces than them, like this radical Islam. And at the time he was talking also about the Soviet Union and nowadays he'd be talking about Iran. And they're sort of being used, these poor, innocent, wayward Palestinians are being used by much stronger forces as a wedge against Israel's presence in the region. And as it is, they don't really have any real claim. And the Jews are the historic custodians or owners of the land and they've returned home. And anybody who believes in or promotes the Palestinian narrative is either ignorant of history or an anti Semite.
[14:10]
Interviewer
I think read you reflect before on this quote that it was somebody who knew Bibi well, I think Dan Meridor who said that Bibi is no racist, but that he will use racism when it's helpful to him. So is that also a factor in how he speaks about Palestinians?
[14:31]
Angel Pfeffer
Yeah, but I mean, when I, when I think when someone like Mary Doe characterized that they, you know, there's obviously there's different ways of saying whether someone's a racist and whether Netanyahu actually has antipathy towards Arabs. There are various Arab leaders Netanyahu gets along quite well with. So you could argue that perhaps it's not Specifically against Arabs or it's just against Palestinians. And is that racism? But the deeper thing is that I think what Mary Dow was talking about in that quote, in that interview I did with him was how Netanyahu will use anything in a political campaign. So if he thinks that what will bring voters back to Likud and Likud's allied parties and increase turnout is our feelings of racism towards Arab, he'll use that. If it's feelings of anger and hatred of Israelis against each other towards what Israelis perceive as being the left wing establishment, he'll use that. I mean, the idea that any other prime minister, any other candidates challenging him is dangerous for Israel and is weak and even treacherous is something that Netanyahu has used in his campaigns and we're beginning to see it now in the current election campaign. So it's, I think if I can kind of paraphrase what Meridor said, and I agree with it with Netanyahu, these things are instrumental. It's not that he is someone who has a specific hatred for Arabs or for any other group. It's just he'll use whatever he needs to use to get, to get elected or to stay in power.
[16:24]
Interviewer
On this point about essentially what's good for Netanyahu is good for Israel, which of course is relevant to the indictments and accusations against him. How real is that in his psychology? Do you think he genuinely has merged with the health and the success of Israel in his own mind?
[16:49]
Angel Pfeffer
Yes. I mean, it's, I think it's clear from every, every statement, every interview, you see it, you see just going through there. But let's be fair. Every politician, every leader has some of that ego. I mean, the reason that you and I are not in politics is we don't necessarily think that we know what's best for everyone and everyone. And if we're not leaders of our countries, then our countries are in trouble. I mean, that is what propels people to, on that, I think, quite difficult path to become leaders of their country. Very few people get all the way. But I think you do need that level of ego and to merge your country's national interests with your own political personal interest to get to that point where you can be a prime minister or a president. It's not something strange in politicians. I think Netanyahu takes it to a level that we rarely see in Olipod. The fact that he can't bear the fact that the idea of resigning, the fact that every time he's lost and he has, you know, this is Kind of tendency to seem as a political winner. He's lost quite. He's lost quite a few elections. But the burning urge to come back after every time he's lost, the fear to stay on the wheel constantly, that is very much part of him being convinced that if he's not the leader of Israel, then Israel is in mortal danger. And Even something like October 7th, which is almost inarguably the biggest tragedy certainly in the last 50 years, since the Yom Kippur War, which was 50 years before that, the biggest failure, the biggest security setback, calamity, every word that we could use for that is simply unclear to him. And it's clear to even those who are still voting for him because their tribal allegiance is to Likud and Likud's camp. It's hard to find someone in Israel who won't accept that that was something that happened on Bibi's watch and very much part as a result of his long term policies. He can't accept that. He can't think. It's not that he says these things just for show when he says no. Actually, in the last three years I've incredibly improved Israel's strategic situation. I've redrawn the map of the Middle east and Israel is more strong and secure than ever. He believes that and he believes that it's all thanks to him.
[19:40]
Interviewer
You can also see how the historical context of his life being in parallel to that of the Israeli state also feeds this idea of being impossible to disentangle yourself from its future. I'd like to talk to you about Iran because you've written how Netanyahu likes an external enemy and of course it was Soviet power and then Arab terrorism. Now the focus appears to be Iran, or one of the main ones is what's happening now a culmination of his personal ideology and approach towards Iran.
[20:22]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, Nathaniel did not invent Iran as Israel's enemy. I mean that until 1979, until the Islamic revolution, Israel and Iran were close allies. And then there was the revolution and then Khomeini kicked out the Israeli diplomats and basically established the destruction of Israel as an aim of the Iranian state. Now you could argue how possible that is and how much of a priority that is for the Iranians. But before Netanyahu came on the scene of Israeli politics, Iran was already. Iran had pronounce itself Israel's mortal enemy. So Netanyahu did not invent that. The question is, how much does Netanyahu use that to promote himself, to promote his own policies and Prioritize that over other things and basically say everything should be about Iran and we don't and anything else is a distraction. And I think that's really where you see the way Netanyahu prefers. In the same way Netanyahu wants to see himself and his, his history and his family's history in this broad historical context. The same thing is the way that he tries to frame his policies in the broadest geopolitical context possible. So the Israel, Palestine conflict of Netanyahu is a sideshow because the Palestinians aren't even a country. He certainly downgrades them. They're not even a nation. It's something which for Israel is a minor irritant, it's a nuisance. But it's not the real thing. The real thing is Iran. And that is the most, that's the existential threat, that's his life's mission. And it's not just Netanyahu prioritizing Iran over solving the, or dealing with the Palestinian conflict. It's also when it comes to other domestic issues. So there's a famous quote when Netanyahu had to respond to a cost of living crisis and the housing crisis crisis. And he said, these are all very important things and we're going to deal with them. But at the same time we don't forget life itself and life itself is standing up. So yeah, and to this day that word in Hebrew, life itself is something that Israelis use to mock Netanyahu. Even some of them support him and his sort of one minded focus on Iran. Now what happened? By now we've got more than one war with Iran. You've got in 2024, you've got two exchanges of Iranian missiles in Israel responding with airstrikes. And then you've got the 12 day war last June and the war that we've just had now with Iran. It's very difficult to kind of go into that long process of by now nearly 50 years of enmity from the Iranian Islamic Republic towards Israel and work out, you know, when did we get to that point? Then there's actual war. And how much of Netanyahu, how much of that is Netanyahu? And was this something that was inevitable now, when Israel went to war against Iran, it was using equipment, planes and missiles that had been designed and developed not under Netanyahu, and they'd been designed and developed very much for a war with Iran. So it's not just Netanyahu, it's other Israeli prime ministers who saw that as being something that Israel needs to focus on. And that's one thing I'm trying to do in a new book I'm writing now is kind of try and drill down and work out how that dynamic which eventually led to this war between Israel and Iran, how that worked out. And Ozzy Netanyahu is a huge part of it. At the same time, he didn't invent this enmity between, between Iran and Israel. It was something that did begin with the Iranian Islamic Revolution. And to try and, and yes, I think Netanyahu certainly prioritizes over everything else and made it into something which would be almost the be all and end all of his policies. And ultimately when you see what happened on October 7, which was not done by Iran, I mean Iran did obviously helped pay for some of Hamas's weapons and gave Hamas support. But they weren't the only supporter of Hamas. And Hamas got support from other places and also got support from the fact that Netanyahu sort of allowed them to build themselves in Gaza as a way of splitting the Palestinians and the fact that Netanyahu under his direction, even though it is the failure of the intelligence services, the Israeli intelligence were looking at Iran while under their noses in Gaza, Hamas were planning this massive attack. So certainly Netanyahu's prioritizing of Iran over anything else has been a failure because it's distracted Israel from much more immediate threats. And if you look at the way that he's built over so many years, almost 50 years, his attitude both towards the Palestinian conflict and towards Iran as a threat, you can see that what happened on October 7th was basically his entire concept of Iran is the main thing. The Palestinians are a side issue that blew up in Israel's face. The 1200 Israelis who were massacred on October 7th weren't killed by Iranians, they were killed by Palestinians. They were killed by Hamas, which is a threat Netanyahu downgraded as a strategic decision, as conscious that we can allow Hamas to remain on our border because A, that helps us split the Palestinian Palestinians in different groups, which is good because that reduces pressure on us to solve the conflict, reach some kind of resolution with the Palestinians and B, because Hamas are not important, what's really important is Iran and those concepts. There's a multiple failure that led to the October 7th massacre, but ultimately it's Netanyahu's strategic concept going back decades which led to that moment.
[26:38]
Interviewer
We've spoken about how politicians tend to have inflated senses of their own self importance, but also beyond the state of Israel itself. Taking Iran into account, what does Netanyahu see as his historical global role. Like, we could talk about the geopolitics and the realpolitik, but in terms of like theologically, ideologically, philosophically, what is Israel's role in the world?
[27:09]
Angel Pfeffer
Well, Netanyahu has always said that he wants to be seen as Israel's protector. That's that, that's what he wants to be remembered as. But when you look at the way he talks, and certainly when he talks in English to a global audience, and he's very much in that Churchillian mindset that he thinks I'm the person who's gonna tell the world what the real threat facing the world is. And Israel and I may be the leader of a country of only 10 million, 10 million people, but actually we're so much more important because I'm leading it. And I'm telling you this is what the world needs to be looking at. This is what's threatening the west. And this is how we are the vanguard of the West. And we're not fighting on our own. We're fighting on behalf of all of you people in west who maybe don't understand what's happening and don't appreciate us enough. And you know, he constantly harks back to that point where Britain was fighting on its own against Nazi Germany before America became part of it, and Hitler and Churchill was sort of leading Britain at the time and he, you know, like. And once again, he's not that different from many politicians. Many politicians have Churchillian complexes. I think not just in Britain, but certainly in Britain we've seen that with quite a few prime ministers.
[28:28]
Interviewer
The way that, yes, the most common
[28:31]
Angel Pfeffer
complex, I'd say, yeah, so Netanyahu is a really severe case. So, you know, if a British prime minister, you could say has some kind of justification of sort of coming in Churchill's footsteps, Israel is a much smaller country than Britain. At the time, at least when Churchill was there, Britain was still some kind of a world power, an imperial power. Now it's obviously a third rate power at best, but net. And in that way there is something kind of. We talked before about the American side of his character. There is, I think at some point a moment where he says to himself, if I actually was American, I would be the President of America. If I was working on a bigger stage than just small country Israel, then I would be the leader of a world power or I'd be a billionaire and I'd be an Elon Musk. You know, that idea that he's a great person is something that first of all he believes in it. And he's in this echo chamber of people who are constantly saying that to him. And so he's not going to let Israel, the fact is a small country and it's not a major power, certainly in many ways does punch above its weight, but he's not going to let that stand in his way of being one of the main world leaders. And when you actually look at the global stage today, he is one of the most recognizable world leaders there is. There isn't any other leader of a 10 million population country that is more here. Netanyahu is probably better known around the world than the Prime Minister of Britain and the current chancellor of Germany. And I can name a list of pretty serious countries where Bibi is probably more well known now than Delhi. And that's partly because he's been around for so long, but also he's built up this idea of himself being such a major figure that even those who don't like him and don't support his ideas and so on, some of them see him as this demonic figure, but he is this larger than life figure in the sense that he occupies a much bigger space than any other leader of a small country does.
[30:49]
Interviewer
Is he confident that history will look kindly upon him to absolve him of any actions that others might criticize him for?
[30:55]
Angel Pfeffer
To paraphrase Castro, that's a great question. Because on the one hand, I'm sure he thinks that history should look kindly on him. And on the other hand, he's, as someone who grew up in that internal politics between historians, he probably doesn't trust the historians do that enough. And that's why he's already written two memoirs in which he kind of explains his self and his life. And that's why he's also, like I said, someone who tried to get his cooperation. He doesn't cooperate with biographers. Not even those who are friendly, I mean, with me could always say, well, you're hostile, and so on. But he doesn't. So you know, he, there have been, I know of various writers, journalists, researchers who've tried to get his cooperation to write biographies. And they're people who do, you know, who, who admire him. And he, and he wouldn't work with them. He insisted on writing his biography instead of me write it. You know, he had, he obviously had someone helping him with the writing, but
[32:01]
Interviewer
he wants a vice grip on that narrative.
[32:05]
Angel Pfeffer
He wants to write his own history for him. It's extremely important that history. And that's also one of the reasons why he can never leave because if you need to be vindicated as the greatest leader, as the Churchill of our times, as Israel's savior, and as we know, history never ends. You never finish the job. But he can't leave, because if he leaves, then the historic record isn't fit. And, you know, he's still trying, you know, and obviously because October 7th caused so much damage to his image as Israel's protector, then he has an even greater need to remain now. And also, if he leaves now, he'll leave. And there will be a national commission of inquiry into October 7, which will find lots of things damning about him. He'll still have his corruption cases, which will be much more difficult for him to fight as a private citizen. So the epitaph to Netanyahu will be a bad one. He realizes that, which is why he can't leave. If he leaves, then he's going to let someone else write his history. Now, you're a history podcast, so you know that ultimately nobody writes their own history. But he's vain enough to believe that he can write his own history.
[33:24]
Interviewer
Angel, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. It's the goal of this show to uncover the history behind today's headlines. Those deeper patterns of power, geography, empire, and human nature that are shaping the world around us. So if you do want to understand not just what happened, but why it happened and what it tells us about what's likely to come next, you are in the right place. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. It makes a huge difference to the channel. It's at this stage. And it also means, hopefully you'll see the world differently and everything will make a lot more sense. See you next time.
[34:02]
Angel Pfeffer
I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the Bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. No, stop. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned, but we have each other. FX is the Bear. The final season, all episodes now streaming on Disney plus.