Cath Kidston: the floral-obsessed entrepreneur on why life isn’t always a bed of roses

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cath Kidston - The Floral-Obsessed Entrepreneur on "Homing In"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Homing In
• Host: Matt Gibbard and The Modern House
• Episode: Cath Kidston: The Floral-Obsessed Entrepreneur on Why Life Isn’t Always a Bed of Roses
• Release Date: July 5, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Homing In, Matt Gibbard interviews Cath Kidston, a renowned designer and entrepreneur known for her nostalgic floral prints and influential homewares brand. The conversation delves into Cath's childhood influences, entrepreneurial journey, personal challenges, and her philosophy on home and design.

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2. Childhood and Early Influences

Timestamp: [00:07] – [07:47]

Cath Kidston reminisces about her upbringing on the border of Wiltshire and Hampshire in a traditional Georgian house. Her family's fondness for decorating instilled in her a deep appreciation for patterns and colors from a young age.

• Family Home Atmosphere: Cath describes her first bedroom adorned with striped rose curtains and pale blue walls, emphasizing the colorful and relaxed atmosphere. “It was quite colourful and it was very relaxed and it was really about an atmosphere.” ([03:17])

• Creative Childhood: Despite being dyslexic, Cath possessed a photographic memory for colors and patterns, often rearranging her bedroom furniture and engaging in creative projects like miniature flower arrangements for local fetes. “I have very good photographic memory for that.” ([04:40])

• Influence of Family: Her parents' interest in decorating and her grandmother's beautifully styled house profoundly influenced her aesthetic sensibilities. “My parents taste was pretty traditional, so it was probably where I got my love of chintz.” ([05:01])

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3. Early Career and Entrepreneurship

Timestamp: [19:27] – [24:48]

Cath discusses her initial forays into the business world, highlighting her lack of formal business training but compensating with creativity and common sense.

• First Ventures: She started her career working in a shop, eventually moving to art college briefly before returning to work due to financial constraints. “I went to work in a shop immediately.” ([19:36])

• Influential Mentorship: Working for Nicky Haslam, a prominent society decorator, was a pivotal experience that boosted her confidence and provided valuable industry insights. “He gave me that confidence that I've been missing. An extraordinary gift to be given that, isn't it?” ([21:00])

• Starting Her Own Business: Encouraged by her success with a previous business specializing in curtain poles and window fittings, Cath ventured into her own decorating business, setting the foundation for what would become the Cath Kidston brand. “That really proved to me that I maybe could have a chance of doing something on my own.” ([22:25])

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4. The Cath Kidston Brand

Timestamp: [24:48] – [37:03]

Cath details the inception and evolution of her iconic brand, emphasizing her unique design philosophy and the brand's growth.

• Brand Genesis: Inspired by her walks past a furniture clearance shop in Shepherd's Bush Road, Cath envisioned a store offering vintage-inspired, non-fussy products that resonated with contemporary families. “I thought, there's got to be a hip shop with all of this furniture that suits my friends and generation.” ([23:22])

• Design Philosophy: Cath emphasizes a balance between bold patterns and simplicity, advocating for home products that are playful yet practical. “It's about creating very much home stuff then.” ([25:27])

• Recognition and Growth: The brand gained significant traction, particularly in the Asian market, cementing its global presence. Cath recalls the moment she realized her brand was recognized: “I read something in the Times and they said that something was very Cath Kidston and I was like, whoa, I hadn't realized that.” ([24:45])

• Aesthetic Definition: Her designs are characterized by vibrant prints and colors juxtaposed against contemporary, minimalist settings. “It's about creating a tension between pattern and plain.” ([25:27])

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5. Personal Life and Challenges

Timestamp: [33:53] – [51:17]

Cath opens up about her personal life, including her marriage, loss of family members, and the emotional challenges she's faced.

• Marriage and Family: Cath shares the story of meeting her husband, Hugh, through her decorating work. Their relationship, lasting over 30 years, has been a source of stability and support. “Hugh worked incredibly hard from when he was 17 until his 50s, really hard in studio work, very long hours.” ([59:43])

• Grief and Loss: Cath candidly discusses the impact of losing her father at 19 and her brother five years prior, highlighting how these events shaped her outlook and personal growth. “I've been very lucky how my life has worked out, which always helps, doesn't it?” ([14:17])

• Lack of Children: She addresses the profound sadness of not having biological children, explaining how her business and role as a stepmother served as surrogate outlets. “It's a gap that I will never fill.” ([41:39])

• Therapy and Self-Understanding: Cath attributes her entrepreneurial drive to therapy sessions that helped her understand her need for self-worth and recognition. “I need it somehow to be noticed in the way I fitted in the family.” ([16:02])

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6. Home Life and Design Principles

Timestamp: [28:29] – [43:45]

Cath provides an in-depth look at her homes in Chiswick, Holland Park, and the Cotswolds, illustrating her design ethos in personal spaces.

• Chiswick House: Purchased in 2001 when Cath was 42, this historic house required extensive restoration. She describes integrating a modern glass kitchen with the traditional red brick façade, maintaining a balance between old and new. “We put a very simple glass box out the back that it floated off.” ([31:46])

• Design Choices: Cath emphasizes functionality and aesthetics, such as choosing off-white painted CR windows to maintain a contemporary feel while adhering to traditional structures. “I don't want to put a kind of traditional extension, but we put a very simple glass box.” ([38:29])

• Current Homes: Splitting time between Holland Park and the Cotswolds, Cath envisions her future home as a single-story, sustainable space integrated with nature, reflecting her lifelong values and design principles. “It's about comfort, both physically and emotionally.” ([39:28])

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7. Current Life and New Ventures

Timestamp: [43:45] – [59:43]

Cath discusses her transition from the Cath Kidston brand to her new venture, Sea Atholy, and her ongoing passion for design and creativity.

• Leaving Cath Kidston: After two decades, Cath amicably stepped away from her brand, appreciating the established team while seeking new creative freedoms. “I just started my new company, Sea Atholy, which is this geranium inspired business.” ([45:03])

• Sea Atholy: This new venture focuses on scented geraniums and sustainable products, allowing Cath to explore fresh creative avenues free from previous brand constraints. “It's a very different project and so I feel really free with that.” ([46:52])

• Collaboration with Small Businesses: Cath highlights her passion for collaborating with pioneering small businesses, creating unique print designs that complement their products. “I love working with small business. It's really all these pioneering people with small businesses that I love connecting to.” ([46:52])

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8. Future Visions

Timestamp: [51:17] – [58:58]

Cath shares her ideal vision for her future home, emphasizing functionality, sustainability, and a harmonious blend with nature.

• Design of Future Home: Envisioned as a floating glass and brick bungalow against an old red brick wall within a walled garden, Cath prioritizes single-level living for ease and accessibility. “I'm thinking, I need everything on one floor and I would like to be somewhere with greenery and trees and a garden.” ([51:17])

• Sustainable Features: Emphasizing energy efficiency, the future home would utilize advanced glass technologies to maintain warmth and reduce heat gain. “The glass keeps the warmth in the winter and the heat out in the summer.” ([51:17])

• Community Integration: Cath aspires to live on the edge of a village, ensuring access to local shops and fostering a sense of community. “I think ideally it would be on the edge of a village and I could shuffle to a shop.” ([57:24])

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9. Reflections and Pride

Timestamp: [59:30] – [61:39]

In her closing thoughts, Cath reflects on her achievements, emphasizing her enduring relationship with Hugh and the creative legacy she's built.

• Relationship with Hugh: Cath attributes much of her success and stability to her supportive and understanding marriage. “Having that to come back to, I don't know if I'd have been able to do it. I never thought about like this, but actually that has been my security behind everything.” ([59:43])

• Creative Legacy: Despite stepping away from her original brand, Cath remains passionate about design, continuously seeking new projects that align with her values and creativity. “I hope that I can carry on with my little studio always designing print in one way or another.” ([59:30])

• Personal Fulfillment: Cath considers her long-term relationship and the stability it provided as her most significant achievement, surpassing professional accomplishments. “I'd say probably the fact that Hugh and we have been together 30 years and it's really still so important to me.” ([59:43])

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10. Conclusion

Cath Kidston's journey from a creative child in a traditional Georgian home to building an internationally recognized brand epitomizes her resilience, creativity, and deep-rooted love for design. Her candid discussions about personal loss, the importance of supportive relationships, and her unwavering passion for creating beautiful, meaningful spaces underscore the intricate relationship between home and identity. As she embarks on new ventures like Sea Atholy, Cath continues to inspire with her dedication to maintaining authenticity and nurturing both personal and professional growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I think it is good... empty space where the ideas come rather than when I'm trying to force ideas.” ([08:00])

• “A business should be driven by product team, customers, those kind of things and then the bank balance follows rather than the other way around.” ([19:30])

• “It's a really nice thing to be made aware of, isn't it?” ([05:31])

• “It's so much about the memory feeling. I like the layers.” ([40:16])

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Cath Kidston's interview on Homing In, offering insights into her life, business acumen, and design philosophy for listeners who may not have had the chance to engage with the full episode.

Transcript

[Cath Kidston]

So I'm sure, in fact, I know having over my life I've done therapy of different things for grief and different counseling. And I know that thing of needing to feel good about oneself and one's self worth is probably what drew me on to do my work. I'm sure of it. There has to be a reason, because I remember when I left my company and I'd been working incredibly hard at Cath Kidstone for 20 odd years. Really hard work and thinking, oh my goodness, what was that all about? Why did I need to work so hard? I really pushed myself and it was incredible, the result. But it's not natural unless you've got that really driven entrepreneurial spirit to need to do something like that. So my conclusion is I need it somehow to be noticed in the way I fitted in the family, I think.

[Matt Gibbard]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Homing in podcast. I'm Matt Gibbard, co founder of the Modern House. Before I introduce today's guest, I just wanted to say a very quick thank you for being here. This podcast is really growing and we've had some very touching messages about what it means to people. So thanks so much for all of those. I. I often listen to podcasts myself and they always ask you to rate the show because it helps with the algorithm and helps other people to discover it. So this week I decided to show them all some love by giving them a quick five star rating. And it really did only take a second or two. So if you're a regular listener to Homing in and you haven't yet given us a rating on Apple or Spotify or wherever else, we'd be really, really grateful if you could spare a quick second to do that. So, moving on to today's episode and my guest is the designer and businesswoman, Cath Kidston. There's barely an oilcloth mug or ironing board cover that hasn't been embellished with a nostalgic floral print from Cath Kidston. Because of the brand's ubiquity, it's easy to forget quite how influential it was when it appeared back in the 90s. What I love about Cath is that she's living proof you can be a wildly successful entrepreneur whilst also being a very kind and gentle soul. Although her name's still above the door, she hasn't been involved with the Cath Kidston business for many years now, so I was intrigued to find out what that feels like. She's now set up a body care brand called Sea Athely. Which makes all of its products using scented geraniums. Despite her love of flowers, life hasn't always been a bed of David Austin roses for Kath. And she talks very honestly about the personal grief she suffered through her life. She has a great eye for interiors and we had this conversation at her kitchen table in London with a surprisingly modern backdrop of Danish wood flooring and at an Ellsworth Kelly artwork. I very much hope you enjoy it. Here it is.

[Interviewer]

Kath. This is a podcast about the home and its importance in people's lives and I always find it, you know, very.

[Matt Gibbard]

Instructive to go right back to the.

[Interviewer]

Beginning and find out about your childhood influences, where you grew up some. So what was your family home like and where was it?

[Cath Kidston]

So I was brought up on the border of Wiltshire and Hampshire. It was in the countryside in an old Georgian house and my parents taste was pretty traditional, so it was probably where I got my love of chintz. I can remember my first bedroom with little striped rose curtains, pale blue walls and counting the baubles on the curtains. When you're a small kid you have to have a rest and lying in the bed in the afternoon, resting, counting the baubles on the fringe of the curtains. But it was. What was nice is it was quite colourful and it was very relaxed and it was really about an atmosphere. It had like coconut matting carpet, an orange hall, quite 60s, dark green walls in the sitting room with this white chintz. My dad I think was more the one who chose the things in the house than my mum, maybe a bit of both. But I have lots of memories. I do remember when we left that house when I was 11 and I remember walking around and bottling the memories of each room. I'm quite dyslexic and I can't remember names, telephone numbers useless in most things. But I do remember colours and patterns. I've got very good photographic memory for that. So I can tell you about the bedroom with lilac curtains. I can tell you there was a room with Chinese wallpaper, with yellow sofas. I've got it all in my head, all those memories buried.

[Interviewer]

How interesting.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah. And I spent a lot of time rearranging my bedroom. By the time I was age 10, I was forever moving the furniture around, re hanging things and making a house in the laurel bushes. A lot of homemaking going on from an early age.

[Interviewer]

So it sounds like your environment was important to you even when you were small. Why was that?

[Cath Kidston]

My family very interested in decorating. My granny had a beautiful house and My aunts, they'd always be chatting about houses and decoration and that kind of thing and say, I went to stay with a friend and I came back, I'll be asked, oh, what was the house like? Probably more than, did he have a nice time? I got used to knowing I got brownie points and I came back and said, oh, these friends had an amazing modern house with this or that. So I was taught to look when I was very little, which is a really nice thing to be made aware of, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

It is, yeah. Did you have that impulse that a lot of creatives seem to have for taking things from outside and bringing them in to your bedroom and arranging them and getting your hands on nature? In a way, yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

It was not quite so much nature. I remember finding an unused barbecue rack and hanging in my bedroom and arranging my pony club tie, making installation on the barbecue rack and being really quite pleased with myself. So that's not exactly nature, is it? But I do remember a lot of flower arranging and I think where my retail jeans probably kicked in is we had a local fete once a year and there was a competition that we didn't have much pocket money as kids and if you won prizes at the fete, it was like winning the lottery. So I remember entering best miniature flower arrangement. It had to be up to 5 inches square and I had a tiny seashell I'd found for things. One various best animal made of a vegetable. Still a nice thing to do, isn't it? But all that kind of creative making and doing and obviously Blue Peter, that kind of background. So there was a lot of making and I think with no tv, no Internet and things. As kids, we were outside. I have an elder sister and she and I spent a lot of time outside, creating, making, doing things, just because that was what you did. There wasn't other things, other distractions.

[Interviewer]

Being in the countryside. What was that like as a child? Do you see that as very formative? Looking back on it, I don't.

[Cath Kidston]

I've never thought of it like that. I do remember as a child sometimes being really envious of friends, kids who. I had a great friend who lived in London and even age 5, she seemed a lot more sophisticated than me. She had different wardrobe, she had a much more hippie wardrobe. And I was like in my old riding jobbers and whatever it was. So I was slightly envious of city kids. Because you was. I think maybe the cross is greener on the other side. But when I look back, that appreciation of nature is very powerful. And very. It's about the seasons, learning. I absorbed a lot more than I realized about plants and flowers and nature and having a respect for nature and animals. That was really important, I think.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And what do you think about this idea that boredom engenders creativity? Because I see that again in my own children. Sometimes I actually think it's quite important for them not to watch TV and just be a bit bored. What do you think?

[Cath Kidston]

I think it is good. I think as long as it doesn't. It can become disruptive because we were quite naughty sometimes when we were bored. So it's like, how can we be disruptive to get attention rather than being creative? So there's a fine line, isn't there, of how it works out.

[Interviewer]

What did you do?

[Cath Kidston]

So we would have. My sister was the gang leader because she was older, she'd like to run away, which lasted about half an hour, you know, like, where are we? We disappeared. Or I don't know. What else did we do? Practical jokes, putting like a cup of water on the door and then crying, help. I mean, nothing very sophisticated. Pretty standard stuff.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

But I think we were half creative, half naughty. Yeah, it was a bit of both. But I definitely think having that time to stretch one's imagination and nowadays as well, being very busy, it's sometimes important to make time for empty space. Because really I find it's the empty space where the ideas come rather than when I'm trying to force ideas. Usually I think of something, say when I'm lying in the bath, it's that empty head or going for a walk. It's so productive creatively, just having time not to be at one's desk trying to. You know, I'm working in the print studio and thinking, should I look online and search for everything? And it doesn't really. It can fill and help form ideas, of course. But there's nothing like an empty head to bring in ideas, is there?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I agree, totally. Do you deliberately plan those times of emptiness in your diary or are they just built into your day?

[Cath Kidston]

I'm not. I'm a very bad diary keeper. Terrible. Yeah. My dogs, I really value that. I always know I have to walk the dogs. So weekends, really long dog walks, it's kind of pattern routine. And I tend to have a bit of time. I like waking up quite early and I like that peaceful time from say, 7 in the morning until 9. I can think of as a time when I can kind of do things. I don't necessarily get up. I could be in bed with My laptop or doing things. But I like that space when the telephone doesn't ring and it's very quiet and that's a really precious time for me in the evening. My head's gone, I'm just ready to watch telly or do something.

[Interviewer]

I have to say, I'm exactly the same as that. I don't understand night owls but you know that we are wired the way we're wired. Tell me about your parents then, growing up. So what did they do?

[Cath Kidston]

So my dad worked in the city and he worked for a family business. The Kidston family originally come from Glasgow and so he went up there and worked and he loved. He was a very sociable person. He loved friends and chat and jokes and his mum was very influential. I'd say that she had a beautiful house. She was very aware of style, looks, visual things. Part of her house had been done up by John Fowler. She had an amazing garden. So she was. That was her whole sort of Persona really, with style and design. And I think my dad came at it in a slightly different, disruptive way, that he liked things to be quite fun and original, hence painting the sitting room dark green or whatever it was, that kind of thing. And my mum was really important too, that she was very friendly, lovely woman, very down to earth. She couldn't bear things that were pretentious and so she wanted. She liked the house quite simple, nothing too fussy, very much a people person, loved her garden, rode down to earth person. So there was that balance in there which I think has been an influence on me.

[Interviewer]

And if you look back on your. Yourself at that sort of age, do you see happy memories? Do you feel conflicted? What sort of goes through your head?

[Cath Kidston]

I think on the whole, very safe and comfortable, sometimes a bit bored. I think that isolated country living. We went to school with only six other kids and I didn't really go to school properly till I was eight. It was this woman's house we went in. We sat round her dining room table and copied out of books. So my education was a bit patchy until the age of 8 and then I went to boarding school. Boarding school was mixed. There was a side of it was nice, but girls aren't very nice to each other. From age 8 to 11 it was a bit kind of not. I didn't like that so much, so I remember that being a bit difficult. And then I went to the next school when I was 11, which was like holiday camp and that was really fun. I had a year of completely like. It was just nice Kids playing, not much work again, actually, so little work. My parents moved me to another school afterwards and that was perfectly innocuous and dull. So I remember at that age, teenage age, I spent a lot of my time when I was from 12 onwards at school in the art room. And being dyslexic, I liked any subject that was visual I seemed to do well in. So I could visualize History, geography, art, obviously English I really liked. Strangely, I could do maths, which were things like fractions because I just imagined a cake and chopped it up and I was there. But I couldn't do algebra because I couldn't visualize algebra at all. And biology, I gave up all sciences when I was 12 because they said you can choose one subject to drop. And biology, my imagination was so vivid I felt quite squeamish. So I still go to the doctor and say, does my kidney hurt? No, I got it wrong. I'm complete blank in my education. But the art room was definitely my favourite place to be. Loved it. And I had a very good pottery teacher, which I never continued with, but amazing pottery teacher called Mochap who was really inspiring. That was my absolutely benchmark thing. Even at my small prep school, art was my thing.

[Interviewer]

Are you someone. And there are a lot of people like this who resent the boarding school thing at such a young age, or.

[Cath Kidston]

No, I don't feel. I never thought about feeling resentment. I could honestly say I have thought, obviously as I got older, I thought a lot about my relationship with my parents and how that might have been different in different circumstances. But I've really come to the conclusion that so much of what happened was generational.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Cath Kidston]

And I've been very lucky how my life has worked out, which always helps, doesn't it?

[Interviewer]

It does.

[Cath Kidston]

So I think that sort of feeling of being slightly invisible as a child probably made me want to be able to achieve something. And I'm quite a shy person. So I'm always curious why I wanted to be noticed because I must have in order to have done my business. I took the risk and didn't mind putting my head above the parapet to do that. And for someone who's very private, really, and she. I've never quite understood it, but to think, maybe I need you to say, yes, I'm here, I can do something. And that's how I maybe fitted in from that invisible, slightly invisible background.

[Interviewer]

So you. Okay. So as a child you felt a bit unnoticed?

[Cath Kidston]

I probably did. I'm the second of four kids and below me, two brothers. And so I think as the second girl, then two brothers, I probably. And also I was the good one in my family and if you're good, you get less attention, which I've realized is something that worked out. So I'm sure. In fact, I know having over my life I've done therapy of different things for grief and different counselling and I know that thing of needing to feel good about oneself and one's self worth is probably what drew me on to do my work, I'm sure of it. There has to be a reason, because I remember when I left my company and I'd been working incredibly hard at Cath Kidston for 20 odd years, really hard work and thinking, oh my goodness, what was that all about? Why did I need to work so hard? I really pushed myself and it was incredible, the result. But it's not natural, unless you've got that really driven entrepreneurial spirit to need to do something like that. So my conclusion is I needed somehow to be noticed in the way I fitted in the family. I think.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm so interested by that. I think you're a great example, aren't you, for people that maybe do feel a bit unnoticed and maybe lack confidence in themselves that if you're just brave enough, I mean, what was it in you and what were the moments that made you face up to that difficulty? Because it must have been incredibly difficult over all those years being an introvert and as you say, being at the top of this, what became a very big company.

[Cath Kidston]

I think the thing that always drove me, even from a really early age, is I had this very, very vivid imagination and power of ideas. So, for example, when I was a small child, I would make a shop and I knew exactly how I was going to make the shop. I'd empty my mum's stool cupboard and the soap from the bathroom. But I styled up the shop and then I worked out to invite their friends when they came to stay into the shop. Once I'd had a drink, I began to work my work. So I obviously had this sort of side in me that I really thrived in certain things. And when I. And I had ideas that felt so, I thought, that's a really good idea. It's one of the few sort of things that I really felt confident in. So I had. I'm trying to think. My first idea was I wanted to invent an umbrella that didn't have spikes. And I knew if I could do this, of course I never could. Waiting for someone, some genius to make a modern umbrella, they're very old fashioned looking, aren't they?

[Interviewer]

They are.

[Cath Kidston]

But I spent hours going to bed at night thinking I'd do this umbrella with a pump like a bicycle that was going to make my fortune. I thought about see through Elastoplast for people with all different skin tones that no one had done. Then someone did it. An idea that ended up a bit like Benetton of a shop where you went in and you could mix and match colours. But I can't tell you how many ideas. They're always thinking of ideas. And that was the thing that really drove me was to be able to. And it took me a while to have confidence. I didn't start the Cath Kidston company till I was 34 and I'd had a business before. Maybe I was a bit younger. I'd had a business before when I was 28 which specialized in curtain poles and window stuff and everything. And that worked commercially. I just got a little kind of limited by how it was. But I tested ideas out. But I didn't have confidence in my business skills. I think because of my dyslexia and also because I wasn't really brought up to consider I'd have any business brain. And actually a lot of business. I think I don't have a business brain but I do have common sense. And so when you put common sense in with investors and capital things you suddenly say, isn't it a little better to have a bit more money in the bank for a rainy day? That kind of business brain rather than saying if we swap equity for this, all that more complicated business stuff. I've never understood that and I quite often would have been on the wrong page in the board meeting. But I probably had an idea. I could give you a litmus test exactly how the customer was responding to a collection, how the staff morale was. All those kind of things I would probably have a really accurate idea about which maybe the finance people weren't so in tune with. And I kind of always thought a business should be driven by product team, customers, those kind of things and then the bank balance follows rather than the other way around, which is probably quite unorthodox. And still how I think today if you can make. Do the utmost to make your product really true to what you want, not dilute values and things, there's much more of a chance of it being true for the customer and healthy and thriving.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah. But hard to articulate that sometimes.

[Interviewer]

Yes. A lot of it's very intuitive and it sounds like you're an intuitive Person. So you left school when you're 17, didn't you?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What was the plan and what did you end up doing?

[Cath Kidston]

I went to work in a shop immediately. Why? I couldn't understand going to university. No, I probably wouldn't have got into university. My mum thought that she disapproved of art school and she thought that I'd become a wastrel if I went to art school. So there was no kind of support for that direction. So I went to work in a shop because I liked the idea of that. It just thought that would be good. So I did that for a bit. Then I did want to go to art college and I went and did three quarters of a foundation. But I found it very difficult going back to not earning money at that time. And so in the end I went back to work. But I began to try and find jobs that I started by working at a pitch framer and that somewhere. I can't remember what happened. It didn't work out and it wasn't the right thing for me. Then I got a job working for antique textile dealer, which was really interesting and taught me so much about global antique fabrics and the journey of textiles. Really interesting job. And I was just the assistant doing bits and pieces. But it was nice. And then I think the thing that completely changed my life really was I landed a job working for Nicky Haslam.

[Interviewer]

Nicky Haslam, who's the sort of society decorator.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah. But he's. That's how he appears. But he's way more than that, Nicky. There's a lot of people, young people have gone to work for him and gone on to do tremendous things. And he's very kind and generous to young people and he gave me that confidence that I've been missing. An extraordinary gift to be given that, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

How did he do that?

[Cath Kidston]

Because he'd tell people who he knew would get back to me that I had good colour sense or he liked rocking with me or whatever. And he made work so much fun because he's very entertaining and very witty. Actually, he has. He reads a lot and he's got a very strong historical sense of decorators design style. So there's a lot of backbone behind that sort of society front. He knows a lot about things and he paints and draws beautifully and he had really entertaining clients. You know, I remember being sent around my first week to go and measure something in Ava Gardner's flat. See her, she was really hip. She had a blue tracksuit and dogs and a blue Tracksuit in the 80s was pretty cool, wasn't it?

[Interviewer]

That's very cool, yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

So all these kind of interesting characters that his life was entangled with was fantastic when you're 25 and just planted on your feet. So I worked for him for quite a while and I really loved that. And then I decided I was going to move out and do my own decorating business. And I had the idea for the Curtain company, which was really a test to see if I could do something, if I could manage a business, not get in trouble with the revenue. I was terrified of the business side of business. And actually, it was all right. It all worked out.

[Interviewer]

Why was it all right? Was it just one step at a time?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah, we got a lot of clients. The business was profitable. It worked. The idea worked. It had a nice sort of solid foundation to it and it carried on. My partner, who bought my half out, ran the business. I'm not sure if she isn't still there or she's just sold it, but it last. It went on forever and ever. It became. McKinney & Co. Was a really solid, constructive business. So that really proved to me that I maybe could have a chance of doing something on my own. And then I hatched the plan for Cath Kidston from walking. I used to walk past this house clearance shop on Shepherd's Bush Road every morning with my dog and see, it was when people were buying strip pine furniture and things, and there'd be all these white painted cupboards and nice old painted furniture, very simple gloss paint. And this guy, he had scratched one corner to show it was pine underneath. And I said to him, do you mind not scratching the paint and selling it to me before you do it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

And you could buy that huge wardrobe for 30 quid. And I thought, that's an amazing. I was in my early 30s, I had a flat and a very small budget to decorate the flat and all that kind of stuff was there to be had. This kind of very not fussy vintage products. So much stuff out there than car boot sales were really coming to their prime. Was an amazing time for finding things. And all the old chintz and china, I mean, amazing stuff. I could go with 200 quid in my pocket and fill my car up. I thought, there's got to be a hip shop with all of this furniture that suits my friends and generation who are maybe buying family home or flat and maybe having kids or that kind of 30s age group, and they want to be able to mix their granny sideboard with something new. And I think Ikea was just coming through but wasn't really there. And when I opened the shop it was totally around the time when Tony Blair came in. And before that there'd been this very formal houses young people lived in very sort of Victorian Y type houses. Dark red dining rooms and kitchens were squished in the back. And it was a very weird way. The decorating was very much that old fashioned chintzy look. And so it's a really good moment to bring everything into living kitchens, simple family friendly places. So it kind of all kicked off in that period.

[Interviewer]

Was there a particular moment when you realised that it was going to work?

[Cath Kidston]

I was very lucky when IKEA did an ad which said chuck out your chintz and then it sparked all these articles about was chintz in or out and all of that kind of thing. We had all these kind of very 50s stuff in those days which was certainly different from the old chintz. And then the day I remember knowing that I'd built a recognisable brand was I read something in the Times and they said that something was very cath kidston and I was like, whoa, I hadn't realized that. But that's pretty much of a move on. If it was recognisable. That was really extraordinary. I hadn't expected that.

[Interviewer]

So you defined a whole aesthetic and how do you describe what that is? What is verecath Kidstone?

[Cath Kidston]

It was, for me it was like obviously print and pattern with a really kind of very English kind of colourful feel to it. But it was quite bold and simple. In the days when we set out looking at my old catalogues and we photographed things like there was a picture of an ironing board cover in a plain white kitchen. So there was a big splash of print and the kitchen was very contemporary. I worked a lot with this lovely Danish photographer called Pierre Triad. She and I both really shared the same sort of ideas about houses. We photographed like bed linen with a glow up mattress on the bed with the bed. So it was quite hip in those days and slightly anarchic when it began. I remember making a very sort of flowery rose loose cover to put on an imac. Do you remember when IMAX came in? They were hugely different things. So the imac cover was a bit like an old Kenwood cover on a desk. So there was always a playfulness to it and an energy like that and that was the root of it. And the plastic tablecloths, I like the idea of someone's kitchen having this crazy plastic tablecloth for the kids to Play with that you could then take away or have in. And it was about creating very much home stuff then. And the bags which eventually took over and made the business huge in Asia, were shopping bags, printed shopping bags. That was how it all began. Then it grew and we moved into huge Asian market. Different business. Really amazing what happened and amazing for there. But the beginning bit, I guess a lot of it goes back to my mum's thing of not liking things fussy. And so there might have been one chair or one bit and it was very edited. And I think if I show you around my house here, I love print and I love colour, but I don't like things to be too ornate. I like scarf sculptural things and I like. There's a picture behind me. I love Ellsworth Kelly's shape and I would happily put a print cushion near that. But it's that sort of balance and creating a tension between pattern and plain. Upstairs I've got some print I can show you. And down in the sitting room there's a little bit of print and I always love colour.

[Interviewer]

Yes, but it's used actually comparatively sparingly, isn't it? It's used in pops. Yeah, I can see that, yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

I mean, I love all those old. I was looking. Recently we've been doing. Designing some toile de julie for my studio and I love rooms where it's literally smothered in troile and it can look really amazing when you. I love print and I love. And I think the French were very good at doing these amazing all print rooms. And nowadays there's huge taste for layering print. The thing that's changing, I think the thing that changes most with design is colour. And there's. At the moment, there's a big fashion for painting window frames. Colours aren't there. And Dawes colours, all of that comes through and that's going to be very twenties, that taste. For me, I think, doing houses up, I really like to think about what will the house look like in 20 years. I don't want to get too caught by something that's a trend because it's so expensive. And I also. I like to absorb trends but not really be pushed by them too much.

[Interviewer]

How do you do that?

[Cath Kidston]

I think having my own references and my own bank of memories and the things that make me feel comfortable. I've always liked traditional joinery. When we come to talk about the house where I used to live.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk about that now. So that was a house on Chiswick, right?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah. So Hugh and I were like, we used to walk down Chiswick Mile, which if anyone knows is the most magical place to walk. And down the end near a church was this wonderful old doll's house. Very sleepy looking Queen Anne doll's house. We used to talk about, wouldn't that be our dream to move there from Ravenscourt Park. And one day he was doing his bike ride and he said, I've seen estate agents, men in suits with tape measures outside that house, it's going to come up for sale. And it was a long, drawn out story how we bought it. And to our surprise we ended up with it. And we didn't sell our house in Hammersmith. It was like the most stressful six, nine months thinking we can't afford it and we haven't sold our old house. So we camped there for about three years. It was two flats and we lived upstairs and the downstairs was empty and I did my photo shoots for my business down there. But it was a really sleepy, untouched house. It was amazing and very simple. I mean it had been built in 1680, there was a little Victorian extension and a sort of jungle at the back of a garden. So my approach to doing that was I wanted to restore it. We put a stairs, staircase back joining the two, the top and the bottom flat again which had been taken out and we built onto the side. And I felt that the bit we could change and the planners allowed us to change was the end of the Victorian extension. And although it looked quite big outside the house, it actually was quite small. It was one room deep. So the two bedrooms on one floor or whatever it was. So we ended up just. I didn't want to put a kind of traditional extension, but we put a very simple glass box out the back that it floated off. There was a really lovely 18th century red brick wall around the garden. And so we were able to make this glass box with a solid roof kitchen contemporary off the wall that could have been taken away and not left any mark. It's like that kind of thing we're planning. And that was a lovely room to be in and look out with a big plane tree. And we made a little pond in the garden, had a veg patch at the end. It was really magical at the back. And then those houses, we were very lucky. We had a garden at the front of the house and little gate and a wall between us and the street and then opposite was a garden on the river. And that garden would disappear under tide every month. So you had lawn? We had a lawn. We never Grew much in there. We had a hedge and a lawn. And it would literally. You'd see swans swimming in the garden. And if you parked our car the wrong time of the day. Day with the tide twice. I ruined casa by being caught out by the tide and it coming up. But it was wonderful feeling to be in the house and look out and you would just. It was like a moat. The river came up. The Thames is so beautiful. And someone said to me, being that view looking out on the river, it's like living by band of gold, which I love that expression. And you never knew in the morning where the tide would be. There'd be people up really early practicing their rowing. People walking dogs down by the shoreline. It was amazing.

[Interviewer]

Did the boat race come past you?

[Cath Kidston]

It did.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever have. Did you ever have a sort of event to celebrate it? Because lots of people.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah, no, we did. We used to make. I remember making fish pie lunches. We did it a couple of times. And then it gets so crowded we kind of stopped doing it. It's pretty landmark thing. But that house was very simple inside when we bought it. It was a period where I got incredibly busy with my work.

[Interviewer]

So. So. So just to give some context, what sort of age were you when you lived there?

[Cath Kidston]

So it 2001. We bought the house.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Cath Kidston]

And so I would have been 42. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you were there for 17 years.

[Cath Kidston]

We were there for 17 years. And the big bit. So a couple of years camping, which is really nice to look work at. How to do the house. Then a year building and then we're back in. And I like doing everything myself. I don't want anyone to have help. And having done interiors before I knew my curtain maker and all of this and that. But because I was so busy. Our bedroom had no curtains for about five years. It's like I'm gonna decide. Made some shutters or whatever it was. But we kept it very simple and colorful. And there was. I remember the kitchen had two habitat tables that joined up. We could have lots of people around. Was really nice, huge table. And I had all the cafkas and china in the kitchen and that sort of thing. And red sitting room with lots and lots of pictures.

[Interviewer]

What sort of red? Your jumper kind of red.

[Cath Kidston]

Darker. A bit darker, but still a proper red. You know, like a sort of a true. A sort of darker than pillar box. But it was a strong red with lots of pictures on that wall. And yellow chairs and wooden floor. Very simple fireplace. It's quite a tricky room. It was a Long thin room, but it had lots of colour, had pictures everywhere. I think for me, the thing I probably like doing most, apart from buying print for design and looking for that kind of thing, is buying pictures. It's my absolute favourite thing, going to museums and galleries as reference, always going off to see things. I love it. And so the house was full of pictures and you have to kind of then find places what I like. Buying those pictures drove the design more than the other way around.

[Interviewer]

Just finishing off your house in Chiswick, the discussion around that, because you are who you are, it's actually Googleable, of course. And you can see pictures of the house from when you sold it?

[Cath Kidston]

I believe so.

[Interviewer]

Which I. Which I did just as a point of interest. So I thought it probably would be there out of interest you there for a long time. Why did you decide to sell it? Because obviously very important house to you.

[Cath Kidston]

We loved it. My lovely stepdaughter had grown up, she'd finished university and she had her own place and she was independent and it was really a family home for us. And I think one of the reasons, Hugh, my husband, is a record producer and he worked for a long time off Goldhawk Road, on Goldhawk Road studios there. So it was very near for him to do his work and it was nice to live nearby. And I'd come from my office in West London and it was incredible to have that sort of walk down by the river and very peaceful. But we bought our place down in the country, which we'd fallen in love with, and it was too much and we didn't need that much space, so we just felt we'd had our time, it was too extravagant and we didn't need it anymore.

[Matt Gibbard]

Just a quick one. I'm really pleased to say that this podcast is sponsored by one of my all time favorite brands, Vitsu. Over the past 25 years or so, I've been very lucky to visit hundreds of beautifully designed living spaces. And if I could name one product that I've seen more than any other, it would have to be the 606 universal shelving system from Vitsu. I think the reason that so many people from the creative industries live with Vitsu shelving is because it's so incredibly versatile, both functionally and visually. It works in big spaces and small ones, modern places, traditional places, townhouses and country houses. And the key to its success, I think, is that it's been paired back to its absolute essentials. Dieter Rams, who conceived it back in 1960, famously said that good design is as little design as possible. And I couldn't agree more with that. To find out more about this brilliant product, you can visit VitSoo.com that's V-I T S O E.com right, back to the podcast.

[Interviewer]

Bringing us up now to the present day. You've got this place in Holland Park, Notting Hill and you've got a place in the Cotswolds.

[Cath Kidston]

We have indeed. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you split your time between those two. Yeah. Okay.

[Cath Kidston]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

So tell me about this house. It's a beautiful stucco fronted villa, albeit not as huge as a lot of the ones around here. So it's a beautiful pied a terre ultimately, isn't it?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah, no. We were going to buy a smaller flat, but we were lucky enough to be able to buy this because I think one day when we're old, this may be where we'll end up.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Cath Kidston]

And so we're thinking about. I'm now 64 and I'm thinking about where would I want to be eventually. And I think it would be too much to be able to run our place in the country one day. And that's a real indulgence. And we're very spoiled and lucky to have that. But I think this in the end will be plenty big enough for our home one day.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

And that was the thought. Otherwise we just generally were thinking about where would it. We don't want to move it again from somewhere else. And so we bought this with a long term view.

[Interviewer]

And what was it like when you bought.

[Cath Kidston]

Had a very nice atmosphere and the man who lived here before had been an engineer, I believe. And everything was incredibly practical, like all the plugs in the right place. He was really organized. But he was quite elderly when he. I think he died while he still owned the property. And he had had. It had two different boilers and I think he'd had a plan to have some people living in one part of the house. And the basement had five rooms down there. So it was lots of small rooms together. This was two rooms traditional. A lot of these houses you come into a passage on the ground floor and then there was a front and back room and we extended where our terraces you're allowed to go out three meters.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Cath Kidston]

So we just did the minimal that we were allowed. And originally I'd planned to make this our living room here on the ground floor. But I then decided actually you spend so much time in the kitchen and it's much nicer to be able to see the view and be up here and in the evening cooking and Sitting outside, so we changed it. But downstairs we've got CR windows which I planned for the kitchen, but I painted them just off white rather than black so they don't feel so classic kitchen. But again, it's quite. It's pretty traditional, this room. I'd say it's quite a classic example of things that I like. So there's very traditional joinery behind then. I like having this very simple Scots fur, whatever it is.

[Interviewer]

The floors. Is it from Denison?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah, Denison floor. Very extravagant. Nice floor. And I just had a dream of making the floor and the units blend into one. And I couldn't find anyone of kitchen design people who mix making contemporary things and old things when they do plans. And I have amazing friends who have a company called Suffolk and Essex Joinery, and they made the kitchen for us from my back of the envelope drawings. And I love the way they've matched the wood. They've done everything.

[Interviewer]

They've matched the wood. And what's interesting as well is that the direction of travel of the floor is the same as the timber on the units.

[Cath Kidston]

So I like that element of having a bit of new. There's a lot of traditional decorating come back in fashion, hasn't there?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

But I really like when there's a little bit of modern in with it. I can't quite take it again, as it reminds me of my parents or grandparents. I'm like, I need a bit of something in there that's not all totally traditional, just for my personal taste.

[Interviewer]

And I always ask this question because it's at the heart of everything that we talk about here. But you've not been here very long. But I suppose this place and your one in the Cotswold, what does home mean to you? What is it in your life?

[Cath Kidston]

Very cocooning. It's a safe place and it's a place to relax and it's a place to have friends who also like to relax. Family. And quite often it might just be Huw and I on our own, but it's about comfort, both physically and emotionally. I guess it's that lovely, easy, familiar thing. And I have so many memories around me from things I've collected and Huw's collected over the years. I couldn't do a house where I started, everything new. I'd find that very difficult because it's so much about that memory feeling. I like the layers.

[Interviewer]

And you mentioned your husband, Hugh. As you say, he's a very distinguished record producer who's worked with Phil Collins and Sting and the Police. And all that sort of thing. Does that mean there's a lot of music resonating around these walls or not?

[Cath Kidston]

I play music more than him because I think it's a bit like he's so used to being in the studio. He was all the time with it in the car. Yes. But very rarely I'm usually the one to put music on more than him.

[Interviewer]

How did you both meet?

[Cath Kidston]

I decorated the house for him. You need that. It's very funny. My assistant, when I had my decorating company, was a great friend of Hugh's sister and he was off working in LA and he had bought a house in Ravenscourt park, so I was the decorator. And having decorated the house, three years later, we got together and I moved into this house that I decorated from Nan in the music business. I said, there's no chance here, there's nothing. So eventually we moved house. I was like, how can I feminize this house? And I knew what I charged him. He'd paid to have the whole thing done. I couldn't suddenly say, I'm not sure I really like living in a kitchen with only wooden chairs and no colour or whatever it was. Yeah, it was a nice house, though.

[Interviewer]

I love that. Such a good story.

[Cath Kidston]

It's so funny, isn't it? It's amazing. So eventually, that's one of the reasons also why we moved to Chiswick from Hammersmith.

[Interviewer]

You've talked about previously who have a stepdaughter. You've talked about a sadness around not having your own children.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Are you happy to expand on that?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah, I could a little bit. I mean, for people out there, definitely, because I know so many people are in the same situation, very sadly. Hugh and I, we were together for a while and we didn't manage to have children. I had cancer not long after I'd been with him and I was told it would be advisable not to have children. And we lost a couple of children along the way with different things. So it's very sad and I feel I'm incredibly grateful. I knew Jess from when she was young because I had that experience of helping bring a child up, which is huge, but obviously very different from being a parent. And I'd openly say it's a gap that I will never fill. I know that and I've really noticed it. Again, interestingly, with my friends having grandchildren, it left me for a long time and now it's come back. So I'm waiting for Jess to have grandchildren, which will help, I know, but it is a really Complicated thing. And I think it was one of the reasons why I was able to put so much into my business that it was probably a surrogate child. So that's what kind of helped me and managed to fill a void. But I do think it's very difficult for women, this combination of how I've noticed with a lot of. I had a lot of women work for me in their 30s, early 40s, bringing up children, and it's very difficult, the balance of work and home. It is a very complex thing to talk about. And I would say I was lucky to be able to get through it the way I did, but it's not an easy thing to completely let go of.

[Interviewer]

And you got through it just by.

[Cath Kidston]

Working, I think working mania and having lovely Jess as part of it. So we had a family life, we had a lot of kids always coming to the house, different things. So there was a way around that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Just sticking with the present for another minute. As you said, you've left your company altogether now. Was it 2015? Am I right in saying that's when you pulled away? So what's it like having a. A big business out there with your name above the door that you're not actively involved with anymore? If you had your time again, would you have called it something different?

[Cath Kidston]

I would have. I mean, I thought I'd opened a corner shop and I was going to be lucky to pay my mortgage, you know, the reason I called it my name was because I had a lot of interior design clients and I wanted them to be able to look me up in the phone book. In the old days, if you needed to get a hold of someone, you rang, I think it was 192 and looked numbers up, so. So that's how it started. But very early on, I had Japanese clients for Cath Kidstone and they loved the logo and the name. And I tried to change it. I made a little logo with a little drawing of a house and it was called In House Product. And I thought I'd call it that. And no one let. They were like, no, we want the name, then I never expected it to grow. I see Cath Kidston as something else, and it still catches me unawares. If people say, are you Kath Kidston? And I say, I am one of them. I'm not the company, I'm me. It's a different thing, but I kind of think the only way to deal with it, probably a bit like a politician. If you've led something, it's best to just let it Be I don't look at it, I don't refer to it. It's a whole different chapter. If I'm walking down Piccadilly, I'll look in the window because it's there still. But it's for good or bad, it's better to leave it and let them do. There's a lovely team there, they all work away doing whatever they do and I'm like, it's not my thing anymore.

[Interviewer]

That must be hard though.

[Cath Kidston]

The hardest bit isn't so much the company and them having their own kind of setup. It's about restrictions of what I can do. And as a print designer I really feel it's important to be able to still be creative and design print because that's my trade. But I'm really aware I must never go into territory that would be mistaken for them. So that I'm really clear about. And obviously when you do something like this, there are lots of legal restrictions which I'm very aware of. So I've just started my new company, Sea Atholy, which is this geranium inspired business which I love, all based on my greenhouse. And it's a very different project and so I feel really free with that and free to do whatever I want within that environment. I've got a sort of retail wide brain. It's like that's what I really love and that's to me, very relaxing. So I started a very small studio to have an outlet for that and I made a portfolio of how I could see a handwriting ahead, which is a different vision of, you know, my style of print in today. And so that kick started a whole new project and I ended up with four people in the studio and from that I do a little bit of print work for other small businesses and collaborations and I love working with small business. It's really all these pioneering people with small businesses that I love connecting to and we sell our prints to those sort of businesses as well. Sometimes no labels, sometimes with. And so I've got a little part of my business ticking over creating print and then I partner with these very long term friends of mine to make these products. Now with all the geranium, I started drawing geraniums in lockdown because I've got a greenhouse full of scented geraniums and that developed into the new business I have now, C Athali, which is so joyous creatively and really new challenge for me.

[Interviewer]

I mean, you're obviously a very relentless person. I mean, I mean that in a nice way. You're, you know, you're self described workaholic, right? Yeah, you must be. How do you counterbalance that? Or traditionally have you balanced that out? You talked about, you know, having some therapy over the years. Is this partly why Is it to deal with your relentlessness in some way?

[Cath Kidston]

I think it's about to ensure that I'm kind to myself, that I don't give myself too hard a time. Because I think that anyone who strives for perfection, there's a dangerous time when you just push yourself too much. And I would end up quite tired from so much work. But I think a lot of it is about probably, I would say it's so much about coming to terms with oneself and one's limitations and liking oneself for what one does. And I've always needed to prove myself. And the reason I do that, I think is probably to like myself. I think it's fairly elementary kind of thing that happens to people with that. So it's really good to keep a watch. I mean, I originally went to do therapy for grief really because I lost my dad when I was 19 and I found my 20s very difficult, my early 20s with that loss. And there was no therapy in those days. And so once I got happier and I was working for Nicky, that's when I went. I was in a position to go and talk to someone, which was hugely helpful. And that's when my career really began and expanded and I got that confident. And then I had very sadly lost a brother about five years ago and that opened up a whole nother. That was when I'd left my business. It was a very sad time because I was probably grieving, leaving a business without realizing, although I really knew it was time I wanted to do that. Then I lost my brother. And so that was a really good touch point to kind of reset everything and think, yes, I actually do want to carry on doing things. I don't want to just be in my greenhouse. And is part of my identity, it always has been to be creative. And I like and accept the fact that I think that will always be with me. And I've seen many other people go before me like that. And I think it's such a privilege as you go into the later part of life to still have the hunger to be creative.

[Interviewer]

So losing your father at 19, you said you'd obviously left school at 17 and you hadn't quite found your way yet.

[Cath Kidston]

My shopkeeping period.

[Interviewer]

Yes, exactly, your shopkeeping period. So were your twenties very challenging then in that case?

[Cath Kidston]

I think in the beginning I was the kind of person who was really trying to work out who I was, who my natural friends were. I think it's normal, isn't it, at that age, to kind of work out who I really was and what I was able to do. There I was in a shop thinking, I don't know, I hadn't really thought how my life would evolve. And it's slightly unsettling that as it not really having a plan. And I'd hate it when people say, what do you do? Or what do you want to do? And I think this is. I'm going to say I'm going to be a picture framer. But I think it probably was the hardest period was right after my dad died, was very complicated for the whole family. He was 50, it was very young and he had a brain tumor. Very quick thing. And so there was a lot of readjusting and complexity probably for a couple of years and I was ploughing along with my shop work and pretty lost, I'd say. And then I began to form these plans of false starts, of what I might do. But I knew I was wanting to do something.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel like he was with you in that journey in a way, is anything that you do with him in mind, if you get what I'm saying?

[Cath Kidston]

I think I was just talking to a friend who's sadly recently lost their father. And I said, my dad died in 78, which is a long time ago. But his kind of his way and his values are very ingrained in me. His humor was really important to me, me, all of that. Very kind, very generous. There's certain values that I wouldn't want to cross. He was probably more influential on me than my mother, although now I can see that. I really like the way my mother was so down to earth and very, very straightforward person. So that I really appreciate. And then I have from his side of the family a lot of cousins who I'm really close to and fond of. So it's a whole broader family culture. We all have our own family identity and that is probably quite influential as well.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk about the future. I'm particularly excited by what you sent us as your thoughts for living in the future. So you said it's a floating glass and brick bungalow built against an old red brick wall within a walled garden. And I love the specificity of that. So tell me about it. What does it look like and why.

[Cath Kidston]

Is it that I was trying to find you? Somewhere I saw is one of those architectural prizes, a very good picture of a house Someone had built. I loved our wall in Chiswick. We had this lovely old red brick wall and someone had built a house which did have brick, obviously for its substance, but it also had very clear glass, very simple structure, so it kind of fitted and blended into the garden. And I imagine when I'm old, I'll need to be on one level. I've got a great friend and she and I often like discussing how we're going to be when we're old, how we're going to manage ourselves so we aren't stuck in some terrible situation. So I thought, okay, I need everything on one floor and I would like to be somewhere with greenery and trees and a garden and be able to go straight out into something. And I love all those old beautiful wall gardens that you can see around the place. We live next to a place called Prinnage Abbey and they have an oval wall garden there, which is a bit run down at the moment, but beautiful. And it'd be like an amazing space spot to just plonk a little, kind of. I could imagine a little bit of a potting shed house on the edge of it. But I like the idea of something very simple, light. There's a very good thing now when you build a house from glass, that it costs a lot of money, but the glass keeps the warmth in the winter and the heat out in the summer. If you invest in the right glass and the idea of a really simple, very contemporary but classical place. And then a few of my favourite things that have had to have made the most terrible choice of what to get rid of and keep. It's a bit like choosing your best songs for Desert Island Discs. Which picture? Comfortable bed.

[Interviewer]

Come in, let's play. What are you taking?

[Cath Kidston]

Okay, so definitely bed. Bed is really important. So really comfortable bed. The right bedside tables with room for enough books, lights, pictures wise. Really tricky. It would depend on the character of the house, really, then I'll be able to choose the pictures. Very simple. Not very much comfortable furniture.

[Interviewer]

Not very much comfortable furniture.

[Cath Kidston]

Very comfortable furniture, but not much of it. I don't need too much. When you're old, you don't need very much, do you? Yeah, enough storage space to hide any mess. Someone told me this thing, which was a really good piece of advice, I think, in designing a kitchen, that when they were young they'd played netball. I doubt you've played netball, but.

[Interviewer]

No, my daughter's playing.

[Cath Kidston]

Okay. So you have to keep one foot and you only can move one foot. And in your kitchen you want to Be able to have all the things you use every day, bit like netball, that you can reach everything. So here with the cooker, the dishwasher, the things that I plate, it's a saucepan, it's a netball kitchen. And so I'd need a netball kitchen when I'm old, obviously.

[Interviewer]

You definitely would.

[Cath Kidston]

So that. That is quite a good idea, isn't it, to think about all the things that you really need close by. And we've been very spoiled with. Wherever I've lived with you now, which is 30 years, we've lived with an incredible view. You can make any house pretty, in my view, any property, you can make it nice and make it your own kind of thing, but you can never create a view, particularly. You can't really create a view. And also to have a house that's peaceful, that's quiet. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You can't change the context, can you? It's the most important thing in the.

[Cath Kidston]

End, I think so. So to have a view and to have some peace and quiet and that kind of thing, if I could have that, I reckon I'd be happy.

[Interviewer]

And what would your view be of.

[Cath Kidston]

Trees somewhere green and trees. It doesn't have to be a long view, but just to have trees, green nature around somehow. Wouldn't mind the odd hill. I prefer hilly countryside to really flat countryside, but it wouldn't have to be. I mean, I love going to say the Fens and it's beautiful, so I'll get used to it, but I'm used to hills. But definitely, if possible, a view and light sunshine facing the right way. If I'm being really fussy, what that.

[Interviewer]

Means, why direct sunshine?

[Cath Kidston]

I love. I like warm things. I like being warm, I like sunshine. I don't like cold and grey.

[Interviewer]

This house is very warm, actually. I notice when you come in, it's.

[Cath Kidston]

Is it hot?

[Interviewer]

No, it's warm. It's welcoming. Oh, good.

[Cath Kidston]

That's key.

[Interviewer]

Well, visually and physically, that you can feel the warmth coming through it. Do you think it's fair to say as well, that as you move into your future and your later life, comfort becomes more important?

[Cath Kidston]

Definitely. But it has for quite a while. I'm quite a comfort person. Person. I really appreciate comfort, don't you?

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, no, definitely. But I think there. There is a time in your youth where you, you know, you're quite happy to be on a kind of directional.

[Cath Kidston]

Upright, safer, and not worry about that 100%.

[Interviewer]

And it sounds like you'd like to live on one level, is that right? Just spatially, do you think again, that kind of works?

[Cath Kidston]

I think when you're old, it's a bit of an insurance thing, isn't it? Because then you wouldn't want to have to move again.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

I think it helps just to be a bit. Plan ahead.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And are you a gardener?

[Cath Kidston]

I am in my greenhouse and all of that. I mean, the thing for me with garden is so much of it is about bringing flowers and plants into the house. If I don't have. When I come back here, first thing I'll do is go and buy some flowers or bring some up from the country. I love having plants indoors, so that's my chief interest is. So when I'm planting things, I'm thinking, what's going to flower all year round? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, what you've described actually is a very English scene, isn't it? A single story house in a. In a walled garden.

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

With a very green view, ideally a few hills. I mean, that. That sounds very English. Is your Englishness important to you and could you see yourself living in a different country?

[Cath Kidston]

I could, actually, because I love going abroad as well. I mean, I've just come back from India and I do traveling. I think the thing I'd miss the most if I wasn't in England is the huge humour and the people. We go to Greece a lot and I feel really at home there. I love the heat, I love the simplicity, I love swimming.

[Interviewer]

Where do you go?

[Cath Kidston]

We go to a place called Spetsis, which is south of Athens, a couple of hours south, and there's lovely swimming and sea there. And I could easily spend half my time there, but I don't think I could spend all my time there. And it's family, friends, people, all the things. If you transported people, dogs, all those kind of things abroad, then yes, I could, but actually I love it here. So I think the answer really, if I'm realistic about it, is no.

[Interviewer]

So what kind of community would this future home be in? Would it be isolated or would it be in a village or.

[Cath Kidston]

I think ideally it would be on the edge of a village and I could shuffle to a shop. There was a local shop that sold everything. I'd like to be able to do that.

[Matt Gibbard]

We all long for that.

[Cath Kidston]

Friends out for lunch in the local public.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

We all long for that perfect village shop, don't we?

[Cath Kidston]

Yeah. The edge of the village with the perfect shop.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cath Kidston]

And what you were saying before about of home being welcoming, warm, all of those things. Yes. I think it's really part of What I aspire to, I really value that. I love it when I go and if I go to other people's houses, I'm much more interested in the atmosphere of the house and if it's a true reflection of them than if it's beautiful and immaculate. So I had a friend who they would have. They were quite a horsey family, and they had curtains that stopped short of the floor, bran mash on the cooker, mess everywhere. And it was the most lovely house to be in because they didn't really care what anything looked like. And it had a really lovely atmosphere. You could go somewhere where it's immaculate and you're nervous to sit on the sofa in case you leave a dent. It could be beautiful, but maybe not so enveloping.

[Interviewer]

This reminded me of the reason we're doing this podcast, is that you and I met at Lucinda Chambers house. And Lucinda's been on this podcast before as well. And her. I remember saying on that evening, her house could only really be her house. It's a complete reflection of her, isn't it?

[Cath Kidston]

It's lovely, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

I mean, it's beautiful. And. And John Paulson was there that evening and his house clearly could only be his. And they're diametric opposites.

[Cath Kidston]

But that's. That's honest to themselves, which is wonderful. Yeah, isn't it? And I think that's the goal, to never be doing what other people do what you like.

[Interviewer]

I agree. What's the future of work for you? I don't know, Mrs. Workaholic.

[Cath Kidston]

I may run out of steam at the moment because we've just launched this new. The new brand, my Sea Athlete brand that's very busy and we'll see with something new, you have no idea how it's going to go. So we'll go with the flow on that and hope that establishes itself. And I also hope that I can carry on with my little studio always designing print in one way or another. It's that sort of bank of reference can carry on developing.

[Interviewer]

Final question for you, Kath. When you look back over everything and you've achieved a huge amount, but I suppose thinking professionally and personally, what do you think you'll reflect on as something that you're most proud of?

[Cath Kidston]

Really difficult question. I'd say probably the fact that Hugh and I have been together 30 years and it's really still so important to me, that relationship, at the end of the day, that would be more important than anything else if you lined up options for me and said, which one do you need to hold on to it would be that beyond anything.

[Interviewer]

How have you done that for 30 years?

[Cath Kidston]

I don't know. I mean, I think we're both interested in a lot of the same things. He's very tolerant of me being able to go and work and do things. I think Hugh worked incredibly hard from when he was 17 until his 50s, really hard in studio work, very long hours and things. And I think he found it difficult sometimes in relationships that he didn't have enough time for home. And he has been really tolerant of me, saying, I'm just going away for 10 days to Japan and I'll be back. He understands that and he's never put any pressure on me to stop me doing things. And in fact, when I said, should I start doing this again? So that's probably a really good idea. Keep me busy, get out of his hair. But he's very tolerant and I think if you enjoy someone's company, it's a huge part of it. Trust and enjoy. I mean, if you're with someone a long time, it's such a lovely thing to know that you trust each other's welfare. You know, we both want the best for each other and we look after each other, I would say. So. All that security I was probably looking for when I was in my early 20s, trying to work out after I lost my father and all the shifts and everything changed and life was much more insecure. That all came back to me in that period. Since I found you, I've had this incredible stability, kindness, support that I probably needed and very lucky that's enabled me really to be able to take so many risks and do so much. Having that to come back to, I don't know if I'd have been able to do it. I never thought about like this, but actually that has been my security behind everything.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Great team. We've both done amazingly well. Thank you so much, Cath, for today. It's been really fascinating.

[Cath Kidston]

What questions? I was expecting three questions about.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thank you very much for listening. We'll post up some pictures of Kath's house on our website, so do take a look at those. The web address, of course, is themodernhouse.com and we'll also put a link in the show notes. As always, please remember to tap the follow button and you'll be alerted as soon as the next episode gets released. And as I said in the introduction, a rating or review is always very much appreciated. This episode was edited by Oscar Crawford and produced by Hannah Phillips with music by Father look after yourselves and talk to you on the next one. Bye for now.

[Cath Kidston]

Sa.