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- [00:00]
A
I was happy as a child with a blank sheet of paper and a pencil and I'm happy as a middle aged man to be the same, you know. So I think that was my default saying. I guess I'm an introvert. I'm quite a shy person, so I've always been quite happy with my own company. And I think that lends itself to doing what I do. The other thing about comedy is if you start analyzing it, it ceases to be funny. It's almost like you don't want to look too hard at it and don't want to analyze it too much otherw it really will stop resonating. I'm 57 years old and I can just do what I like. I think once you've got past 50, it really doesn't matter. You can't be cool anymore. You're not young anymore. Do whatever you like, it's fine. As long as you don't do anything that's against the law, it's fine.
- [00:57]
B
Hello and welcome to Homing. I'm Matt Gibbard. Today's guest, excitingly, is David Shrigley. David's a contemporary artist. His drawings and deadpan observations have earned him a big following for their mix of humour, bleakness and childlike simplicity. David grew up in an ordinary red brick estate in the suburbs of Leicester. As a shy child, he was happiest alone with a blank sheet of paper and a pencil. And in many ways, not much has changed. His artworks have an improvised quality, but beneath them lies a surprisingly ordered life. David admits to having obsessive tendencies and talks openly in this conversation about anxiety, control and the routines that keep him grounded. He says, making art gives me a structure. It's at the center of who I am and what I do to make myself happy. His studio in Brighton is the backdrop to his daily life and he'll soon be revamping it with the architect David Kahn. There's a list on his drawing board where members of his team can leave suggestions about what he might want to draw. I get the impression they make each other laugh quite a lot. And David certainly had me in hysterics while showing me around his studio, especially with his pretend ad campaign for Heinz Beans. We'll make that tour available to our Patreon members. I really enjoyed my visit to Brighton. David's an expert at making people laugh, but he's also an introspective character. And there's a quiet seriousness beneath all that absurdity. So here it is, David Shrigley. I hope you enjoy it.
- [02:45]
C
Hi, David.
- [02:46]
A
Hello.
- [02:46]
C
Thanks so much for being on homing, really appreciate it. So just to set the scene of where we are, we're in your studio in Brighton.
- [02:54]
A
Yes.
- [02:55]
C
Which is presumably quite close to where you live.
- [02:57]
A
Everywhere is quite close in Brighton and Hove, is that right? Yeah, I live on the other side of town, but it's still only 10 minutes in the car.
- [03:05]
C
Okay. Where did you grow up, though?
- [03:08]
A
I grew up in Leicester, in the suburbs of Leicester. I was born in Macclesfield in Cheshire in 1968 and I was born at home in my parents matrimonial bed. I thought you'd like to know this as being a homing show.
- [03:31]
C
Nice detail.
- [03:33]
A
I have no memory of that, of being born, obviously, but I have no memory of living in that place. I moved when I was just before my second birthday apparently to Leicester. But it gives me some credence amongst the Manx. You know, they say, oh, you're one of our stars.
- [03:52]
C
So what was the childhood home like then? Describe it to us.
- [03:55]
A
I just grew up in the red brick estate, like so many people, I guess in the uk. Yeah, I had quite a happy childhood doing very suburban things and, you know, riding my bike, had a paper out, lived very close to the school, played football. In retrospect, architecturally, suburbs are very. Suburbs are very similar throughout the, you know, throughout the country, I guess you go to different countries, the burbs are different looking, but the landscape of the suburb is really ubiquitous in the uk. So I feel like. I feel like an everyman in lots of ways.
- [04:37]
C
Is that quite helpful though? In some ways?
- [04:39]
A
I suppose so. I mean, I suppose it gives you a grounding and a feeling of, yeah, this is kind of where I'm from in the sense that, you know, people draw their identity from the part of the country that they're from. However, a lot of parts of the country are really the same, you know, which isn't always the case, but I think if you live in a suburb of a city, that's sort of the way it is. But I moved to Glasgow when I was 19 to study at Glasgow School of Art and I lived there for 27 years. So the bigger part of my life was spent in a city that was architecturally very different from where I grew up and from the suburbs. So I always lived in Victorian tenements, Victorian houses when I was in Glasgow and I think that when I first went there, which would have been about 1988, I was really struck by how different Glasgow was architecturally. I mean, it's very different in lots of ways, culturally, meteorologically, it rains a lot, but yeah, it felt like going to the big city in those days. So I was really impressed by the Victorian architecture of Glasgow and yeah, lived in some really interesting accommodation there as well.
- [06:02]
C
Well, let's come back to that. I mean, dwelling for a moment on your upbringing. Tell me about your parents, what did they do?
- [06:08]
A
My mum and dad are still alive but very elderly. My dad was an electronics engineer and my mum was a computer programmer. But they're both in their late 80s now. My parents and I don't really have a lot in common. We've always had a really good relationship, but yeah, we really don't have a lot in common. I'm quite an outlier in my family as a visual artist. My pathway into being an artist was one that just sort of happened. It wasn't. Didn't really come from anything that happened in the family home. It was a very much an external interest for me. So.
- [06:49]
C
So did you feel that point of difference growing up then? I mean, when did you first become aware of that sense of being an outlier, as you put it?
- [06:58]
A
When I was a teenager, I guess. That's when you sort of form your identity. I mean, prior to being a teenager I think I wanted to an astronaut, as you most little boys do, or a dinosaur hunter or something like that, and then a professional footballer, which obviously wasn't going to happen, and then an artist, you know, even before I knew there was such an occupation as an artist, I guess in my early teens I discovered visual art and discovered. Went hand in hand with discovering music and, you know, record cover art and stuff, so. And then I had a really good art teachers at school who kind of lit that fire for me.
- [07:42]
C
What kind of art were you doing at that point? I mean, would we recognize a David Shrigley at that point or would it?
- [07:48]
A
I think you probably would, yeah. I feel, I mean, unfortunately my parents didn't really value my artistic output until as I became famous. So none of my childhood art got kept, you know, and they didn't have any, you know, they didn't really have any interest in art or didn't really see any value to that activity when I was a child. Whereas I suppose if I'd had children, I never had children, but I would have kept all their art. I mean, I guess people like us would be primed to do that. So there isn't really any record of what I did as a child, but in my memory I, you know, I think my work was not that dissimilar. When I was 6 to how it is now, you know, figurative drawings with text and pictures of dinosaurs and I don't know, lots of. Probably quite violent, I'd imagine.
- [08:44]
C
Can you describe what like. So when you were drawing pictures like that when you were six or when you were a teenager, is that. Do you feel like that's something that's just within you and you just felt like it was just something that needed to come out somehow? Do you know what I mean? I mean there is that thing with artists sometimes where it's not a voluntary thing, is it?
- [09:01]
A
I guess so. I mean, the caveat of talking about that is that you tell these stories about yourself but you don't really know if they're true. I mean, sometimes it's just a story that is told for the benefit of this type of conversation.
- [09:16]
C
Yeah.
- [09:17]
A
But that said, I do feel as if my default setting is to be an artist. Is to be. You know, I was happy as a child with a blank sheet of paper and a pencil and I'm happy as a middle aged man to be the same, you know. So I think that is my default saying. I'm quite. I guess I'm an introvert. I'm quite a shy person, so I'm quite happy with my. Always been quite happy with my own company and I think that lends itself to doing what I do.
- [09:47]
C
Yeah.
- [09:47]
A
I notice in myself as I've got older that, you know, I'm not really very happy unless I'm making something and time spent away from making art. If I spend any longer than two weeks without making a drawing or a painting, I start to get a bit angsty, I think.
- [10:06]
C
Do you? Yeah. That's interesting. How did you get on at school then, out of interest being, you know, describing yourself as an introvert? It's not always easy.
- [10:16]
A
No, I navigated school pretty well. I mean, being a lot bigger than everybody else was quite helpful, I suppose.
- [10:23]
C
So you were tall from an early age, were you?
- [10:25]
A
I was, yeah. I was really was one of the tallest kids at school, so I didn't get bullied too much. But then school is pretty horrible as we all know. You know, you navigate it as best you can. Either you're a bully or you're one of the bullied or you just try and you're somewhere in between. You just sort of try to navigate that path as best you can, avoiding violence and humiliation in the best way possible. I went to a big comprehensive school which wasn't too bad in retrospect. I think it was a fairly Good school. It wasn't too horrible. But that said, yeah, school is difficult and I sympathize with kids predicament and being in there, you know. Cause they're not socially, it is such a bare pit, you know, sometimes.
- [11:17]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:18]
A
But I managed okay, I think and I got through and I, I fitted in. I liked football. I guess if you've got something that they can latch onto to bully you for, then, then you're in trouble. Whereas I managed to not have anything apart from having a strange name where mine, you know, I think when you've got a funny, a funny surname, your surname becomes your nickname. So it's kind of okay, you know.
- [11:47]
C
What did it get adapted to?
- [11:50]
A
Well, it's just shrig. I'm still shrig, you know, shrig, shriggers, whatever. It wasn't really worth adapting, you know, it didn't warrant adapting, you know, because it was strange enough in itself. Whereas if you, if, you know, if your name's something else, you get called, well, whatever you get called, you know, something unpleasant. But I was just the tall kid with a funny name. That was enough to get through relatively unscathed.
- [12:16]
C
Okay, if I asked you to describe what was the most sort of challenging experience or aspect of your childhood, what would you say that was?
- [12:27]
A
It's hard to say. Other, I mean other kids, probably it's the worst, was the most challenging us. But other human beings have always been the biggest problem in my life. I had, as I said, I had a pretty good relationship with my mom and dad. I still, you know, we still got on well, albeit, you know, very different people. You know, I escaped childhood without having any resentment towards my parents, my parents. You know, I think if you always feel that your parents love you, then that's okay. That's the most you can hope for in a parent child relationship. And I always felt that. So I never, even though my parents and I have our differences, it's, I never felt that I wasn't loved and cared for. My parents are Christians and my dad latterly is an evangelical Christian, which is quite a position to take in life. And if you don't subscribe to that position, it's. It, yeah, it's, it's a big difference. And I'm not practicing Christian. I'm not. Whilst I'm sympathetic towards faith as a whole, I'm not, you know, I don't practice any. So that was probably because of conflict to some extent. And it shapes your upbringing as well. Not necessarily in a negative way. I think, you know, there are Positive things about that framework for your life. But, you know, I grew up going to church and to Sunday school, but once I became a teenager and did O level sociology, it became more. There were some questions that needed to be answered that my father wasn't able to answer. So I drifted away from the church. But yeah, apart from that, it was a pretty happy childhood.
- [14:17]
C
So you mentioned that you went to art school in Glasgow. Did. Presumably you studied at the Mackintosh School of Art, did you?
- [14:27]
A
I did, yeah. I mean, I was there in the
- [14:29]
C
good old days before it burned down twice. Right.
- [14:31]
A
Well, long before it burnt down. But not only that, before you actually had to pay to go there. So I, when I studied, not only did you not have to pay, but they also gave you money to go, which is called a grant, which was extraordinary. Looking back. There were 11 students in my year in environmental art in the fine art department. I got grant to pay for, you know, my living expenses. I had a studio to work in, not that smaller than the room we're in now. It's only shared with like one or two other people in some semi derelict annex of the art school. So I didn't study in the Mackintosh Museum, as it became called. I studied in this old school building, Victorian school building, in a gymnasium. We had a rope swing in the middle of the, in the middle of the gymnasium and swang around on it, destroying each other's artwork. It was a great experience of art school.
- [15:41]
C
What did you learn at Glasgow, technically, do you think, just as a draftsman or as a painter or is that not how you look at it?
- [15:50]
A
Well, if you look at my graphic abilities now, you'd probably say nothing given that I actually did life drawing in the Macintosh Building in the life drawing purpose designed life drawing, life room. You know, with my arm extended and my thumb measuring proportions, I was useless at life drawing, relatively speaking. I mean, relatively speaking I'm better at drawing than most people. But relative to professional artists, I'm pretty rubbish. Or at least I don't, certainly don't demonstrate many skills. But the things I learned weren't necessarily craft skills. I think I learned resourcefulness and I learned about what my own practice was. And I think that a fine art course essentially should teach you that because craft skills are pretty easy to acquire. You don't actually need to go to art school to learn how to draw. You can do that at evening class. You don't really need an artist to teach you. In a way, it's a craft skill. I think the way that you learn to be an artist is through making art. And that three or four years that you get at art school is what that's there for personal development. And hopefully you have some good guidance. I have an odd relationship to craft, and it's something I talk about quite a lot because I don't demonstrate craft skills in what I do.
- [17:18]
C
Is that a deliberate thing, though? How conscious is that?
- [17:21]
A
It's conscious in the sense that I talk about it, but it's also. It's a genuine lack of craft skills. Like, it's not. It's not an affectation that I'm adopting. I am genuinely useless when it comes to drawing or genuinely not that good. And it's not a decision to not use skills that I have, although to some extent it's mannered. But it is, you know, a decision to make art in a certain way or to make graphic work in a certain way, which I find is a really rewarding adventure somehow. And I think it might be different if I was naturally more gifted with a pencil and a paintbrush.
- [18:07]
C
So if I asked you to draw as accurately as you possibly could a dinosaur or a human being's face, would it come out how your art comes out at the moment, or would it come out quite differently to that?
- [18:22]
A
I would come out exactly as you'd expect. Come out exactly as you expect. It's real, you know, the work.
- [18:30]
C
So interesting.
- [18:30]
A
I mean, also, my handwriting is real as well. People often comment when I write them a message that that's your handwriting. And I'm like, yes, yes. What did you expect? You know, so this is my handwriting. And so in that sense, I feel like I'm a conceptualized in the sense that the value of the work is about some kind of demonstration of ideas rather than a manipulation of materials in a certain way.
- [19:06]
C
That's so interesting. So what does that do to the experience of living with it then? Let's say someone's got your work in their home. Do you think?
- [19:17]
A
I don't know. I mean, I'm always flattered that people want to live with the work. And I make it because I like making it. But also I like. You know, I'm proud of the things I've made, but I, you know, I never really expected it to be so popular. At the same time, this is, you know, the things that make it to being a screen print perhaps are the kind of kernel of what I'm trying to achieve graphically and conceptually. Maybe. I think the work is. I guess it's a message, you know, on It. Because it's not badly rendered. It's just, you know, rendered in a very simple way and a very economic way. And I think that people like that. I mean, it's not to say that I don't think about colors and images and stuff like that. And I do make decisions. There is a mannered way of doing it. But I guess people are interested in the messages, I suppose. And I guess there's a. I don't know, some kind of relationship between the images and the text, which. Some sort of slippage there that people perhaps appreciate. I mean, there are two ways of describing it. There's the way that I'm describing it just there in terms of what I've said. And there's the other way, which is, you know, I'm at a dinner party with strangers, and they say, what do you do? And I say, I'm an artist. And then my wife will chime in, Dave's a famous artist, and who are you? What's your name? Blah, blah, blah. And then they start looking at it on their phone. And then you sort of see a perplexed look on their face when they finally look at the. These images and they're like, oh, ooh. And they don't really know what to say. Like, how can you be so successful making what appears to be kind of really crude images that, you know, I wouldn't. You wouldn't imagine that you'd actually have to go to art school to learn how to do this. So there's a, you know, a conflict between the way I might speak about the work and the way it is.
- [21:35]
C
That's really interesting. I love that. Let's talk about your current home. So you live in Brighton. Just describe it to us. What kind of building is it?
- [21:44]
A
Well, I moved to Brighton 10 years ago, and I've lived in three different places since then. I started off in the neighborhood where we are now. We're in my studio, which is in Kemptown, albeit very close to the city center. And I started off in Kemptown in what we call Kemptown Village, in a terraced Victorian house, which we moved from Glasgow from a palace, which I think, yeah, looking back, it was a palace. It was a lovely half of a townhouse, Victorian townhouse, built in 1840, with a mural in the foyer kind of thing. And then we bought this terraced house in Kemptown. And at the time, we also own a holiday home in Devon, which we've had for many years, which we've been trying to renovate during that time. So we sold A house in Glasgow. And then moved to the holiday home for a bit in Devon. And then we were going back and forth to Brighton to find a house to buy. And we ended up buying in haste and bought the wrong house and bought this terraced house which was sort of quite nice, but really wasn't quite what we wanted.
- [23:00]
C
What was wrong with it?
- [23:01]
A
Couldn't park the car outside. The walls were paper thin, so you could hear each other farting next door and whatever else. And it was sort of a bit up and down as well. It was four floors and quite narrow. So we'd constantly go up and down the stairs. The attraction of buying it was that it had some outside space, which is lovely. Cause we've got a dog. It was very close to all the amenities, very close to the sea. And it had a separate apartment in the basement. Which meant that we could afford to buy it. Because that became my studio. So I could buy it as a business expense. So we ended up buying a larger house than we otherwise would have to. Anyway, it sort of worked out and it was kind of nice, but just, you know, that way where it's just not the house that you want. And the worst thing is when you've actually had the house that you really love that you felt like you'd stay in forever. And then we ended up, one reason or another, deciding to leave Glasgow and ended up in this house. And from day one, the day I moved in, I was like, I don't like this. This is a mistake. And I should have listened to that voice that told me this. I mean, you make the decision with your partner. And I kind of listened to her. And I should have listened to my gut.
- [24:22]
C
You know, what were you experiencing that maybe she wasn't aware of? Why was it so wrong?
- [24:28]
A
I think she was being pragmatic. But she ended up spending most of the time in Devon. And I ended up spending a lot of time here. And sort of. So maybe because she wasn't here that much, it was kind of okay that it wasn't quite the right place. I think she sort of zoomed out a little bit and saw the, you know, the whole picture that felt like this. This was the amount of money we had. This was the best thing that was available at that time. Anyway. Spent six years there.
- [25:05]
C
Oh, wow, that's quite a long time.
- [25:06]
A
But there are lots of positives about that. I got to know the neighborhood. I got a little studio up the road and made friends. Made a lot of friends in Camptown and made a lot of friends in Brighton. So it wasn't a disaster. It was. It was a good thing in lots of ways and I wouldn't be where I am now, but all of that time I was searching for a studio as well. So I wanted to. I mean, I didn't have very much money at that point, but 10 years later I managed, you know, I was. I had enough money to buy the building that we're in now. So there was always that side project of looking for somewhere else and. But six years later we ended up having an opportunity to sell it and it just sort of came out the blue. We ummed and ahhed about selling it and Covid happened and we spent a lot of time in our holiday home in Devon, which was an incredibly fortunate situation. And then we didn't have anywhere else, so we rented an apartment at the Marina, which is another really strange place to live. I don't know if you've ever been to Brighton Marina.
- [26:09]
C
Yeah.
- [26:10]
A
But there's a big modern block there.
- [26:12]
C
Yeah.
- [26:12]
A
That they built on the kind of harbour arm. And it was sort of all right, but the lift kept breaking down and we've got a little dog who needs to go to the toilet in the middle of the night and will not go in the dirt box. So that was quite a lot of moving around when the dog's got a funny tummy. But I quite enjoyed it in a lot of ways. And it is a bit of a very peripheral location to the city, but it was kind of nice and kind of living in a. It was always temporary, but we felt like we bought some time, so we had the money in the bank and I was slowly trying to persuade my wife to buy another house during that time and I still had a studio. So eventually we found this house in Hove, and surprisingly to me, she agreed that we should buy it. And it was quite, you know, it was quite. Quite a lot more expensive than the one that we'd sold and we were just sort of like, right, this is it, we'll buy it. So we looked at it. I think we looked at it on 20th of April and we moved in there on the 20th of May, something like that. So four weeks between viewing it and moving into it. So it was quite a. Quite an expedited process, but it was. That was a detached parking space, garden close to the park, a little bit on the cusp of the burbs, but still a Victorian house. A really lovely little villa. There's a few things that need doing to it, but it was in. Really, it's in A really nice, pretty good state, relatively speaking. So, yeah, it was just the right house at the right time. And then our dogs got old and needs a lot of care. So she's got a garden so she can go out in the night in the garden. Really close to the park, which is great. Really close to the train station, which is kind of great for me. I need to go to London or to Gatwick or wherever. So it's been really nice. So, yeah, we live in a, I guess a 1890s Victorian villa in Hove.
- [28:23]
C
What does a good day at home look like for you?
- [28:29]
A
The dog hasn't peed the bed.
- [28:31]
C
That's a good start.
- [28:32]
A
That's a good start to the day.
- [28:33]
C
Yeah.
- [28:33]
A
I mean, it's my own fault the dog shouldn't sleep in the bed, but there we are. Yeah. Don't wake up too early. A lot of my life revolves around caring for an elderly dog now. Yeah. Speak of the devil. Speak of the devil. My little friend's just walked in. Hello, piggies. Hello. Hello. There's a lot of dog walking, giving the dog meds, getting ready to go to work, sharing the load with my wife. And I try and come to the studio at 10am every morning. Sometimes I do yoga. First thing I have a yoga lesson. This little snuffling in the background is Inka, my dog, by the way. She's wondering why. Why I'm not on the floor with her now. So, yeah, I try and work a 9 to 5 day or a 10 to 6 day. I often take the dog to work with me, so she comes and sometimes some of my studio team take her for a walk. In terms of my working day, I feel like I've always been of the strategy that if you put the hours in, the work makes itself. And I've got quite a. It's taken a while, but I've got some good people who work for me now and they do all the stuff that I don't want to do, like answering emails and doing meetings. So I'm able to focus on the things that I can't delegate, which I suppose is making the work. Yeah, I feel I try to think about the process rather than the end result. I guess I just try to make a certain amount of work and not think too hard about what it is.
- [30:28]
C
So how much will you get through in a typical day or week?
- [30:32]
A
Well, you see the paintings, the one that's on the easel over there?
- [30:36]
C
Yeah.
- [30:37]
A
I might make 10 of those in a day.
- [30:39]
C
Oh, seriously?
- [30:40]
A
Yeah. If I'm going for it, but they're not finished. They're always half finished. So I might make an image and then I'll go back to it and add something else.
- [30:51]
C
So where will it be? While it's in a sort of holding
- [30:53]
A
pattern, it goes on the drying rack and then in a box. And then once, you know, 100 or however many I want to make are finished, then I go back to that hundred and work on them again. And I sort of make notes of right things. Sometimes they have text in them, sometimes they get finished immediately, and sometimes they take a few weeks coming back to. Usually the text arrives after the image, but not always. And usually there's. Sometimes the image changes a little bit like this a lot of the time. Also behind me, you'll see some marks. It's sort of like a. A prisoner marking off the days of his incarceration. So I do that when I've made a drawing or a painting. I'll tick one off on this little checklist in fives with the line through it.
- [31:54]
C
Each time you make one, you get.
- [31:55]
A
Each time you make one. Yeah, so I do that. But that's sort of. Apparently this is obsessive compulsive behavior, which I am prone to. And I kind of get obsessed with this just making the work. So I don't. In a way, it's sort of quite helpful because I don't think too much about making what the work is. It's just the desire to finish it or just the obligation that I seem to put on myself to finish it. So that kind of works. So, yeah, you've got all these pieces of paper with lots of little lines on them, and everybody asks me, what are they? And then I tell this story. I say, it's a good thing to be obsessive compulsive. It only becomes a bad thing when you have to drive back home to see if you've locked the front door.
- [32:49]
C
Do you do that?
- [32:51]
A
No, I always check it twice before I leave, and I'm only allowed to check it twice. This is what my therapist says.
- [32:59]
C
Is there anything else that happens inside the home, then, to do with your obsessive behavior?
- [33:04]
A
I'd say I've had a light brush with ocd and it varies a lot. So I've started. All of the books that I've read since I moved into the house have to be kept on the bookshelf, and no other books are allowed on the bookshelf. And I'd never. I don't tell my wife things like this, but I keep asking Her. Have you taken that? Are you reading that? Because, like. Oh, no, I haven't read it yet. Can I have it back then? Can I buy you another copy of it so that you can read the other copy so that I can have the copy that I've read that has to stay on the bookshelf. So there's a bit of that, but it's just. It's not too bad, I don't think. I think it's generally a healthy thing and certainly in regards to making art, it's quite a good thing. Gives me a structure to make it. So, yeah, I don't have to arrange things in the fridge. You know, it's not that bad, but
- [34:01]
C
obsessive compulsive behavior of any sort and obviously some people are very unwell with it and it's a very. Can be a very serious thing. So it's not to trivialize at all. But in your case, you know, it sounds like you got it under control to some extent, but I suppose it is that word control, do you think? Is it about trying to exert some control over the world somehow?
- [34:22]
A
I think so, yeah. As you say, I wouldn't complain in terms of my relationship to OCD because it generally is a positive thing, but I think when you do what I do, you need to give yourself a structure to. To make the work. And I think you have to have to have the ability to make something because nobody's going to tell you what to do. And you can stay in bed all day if you want to. So, yeah, giving yourself a structure is really important. I find making art gives me a structure somehow. And gives. Yeah, it's very much at the center of who I am, my identity and what I do and what I do to make myself happy.
- [35:08]
C
So you mentioned earlier that if you were to go for a couple of weeks without making anything, that would start to take its toll somehow. What happens that make you anxious or what would happen?
- [35:19]
A
Well, usually it happens when I'm on holiday. So when I'm on holiday, I realize that it's actually healthy not to do it for a couple of weeks and just to read books for a couple of weeks. But yeah, by the end of the third week, I'm sort of like, I don't want to do this anymore. Want to go back into the studio. In a way, it's sort of like that week of not making art is part of making art, if you know what I mean. It's just a sort of necessary counterbalance in order to be able to make the work. So perhaps it's part. You know, it's not really a break, in a sense, it's just part of the process. I think also it's very difficult to chart your own emotions sometimes very difficult to know what you're unhappy about until you've removed that thing or added the thing that you want. You know, I don't think we know ourselves very well. We just have to think about the pattern and what we've learned and do that. But when a new thing, when a new pattern emerges, it's quite difficult to figure out.
- [36:25]
C
Are you interested in psychology in general? I mean, have you done any psychotherapy? Have you kind of read about some of this stuff? What's your approach to it?
- [36:32]
A
I mean, I've kind of done therapy in the way that a lot of people do therapy just to help you in difficult moments and to give you strategies to deal with the difficulties that you might have in life. But there's nothing really particularly groundbreaking in that, or there's nothing particularly remarkable in that it's been helpful. And I'd definitely be an advocate of, you know, looking after your mental health in that way. But I don't really want to think too hard about myself. Somehow I feel like the point of art is that it's a great adventure and it's the thing that takes you outside of yourself. It's important to look after yourself physically, mentally, emotionally. But I like the thing about art is it is an adventure and it is exciting and it gives not really a meaning to life, but it gives a purpose to my life in that it feels as if I am. It's a constant inquiry and a constant way to discover things.
- [37:39]
C
Yeah.
- [37:40]
A
So that's what it is for me.
- [37:41]
C
Yeah. I've obviously got to ask you about humor. You know, I'm not flanneling you here, but you are the only artist that I come across that does make me laugh out loud a lot. It's an amazing gift for you to be able to do that, but also for someone interacting with it. For me, it's really the key to everything that you're about and everything that you do. And I think personally, that's why people choose to live with your work. It's not often, I suppose, that you come across something and it does elevate your existence in that way. Tell me about your sense of humor. I mean, I'm intrigued by this. Are you chuckling to yourself when you're writing some words onto a piece of paper or.
- [38:21]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, it would be really strange if I Wasn't. I've always felt this kind of imposter syndrome in terms of being a successful artist. When I first had success, even when I first went to Clarsia School of Art, I felt like, have they made a mistake by accepting me to this, such a prestigious institution? And then, you know, when I had success as an artist, I was, I felt like, how has this happened somehow? Like there must be some mistake which will be redressed at some point in the future. And I still, there's still part of me that feels that, but at the same time that's not really helpful. You have to just get over it. People like the work, they like what you do enjoy that. When I was in my. I was probably 27 years old maybe when I had my moment, first moment in the sun, as it were, and the way I talked about the work then was that it was some kind of poetry and it was only accidentally comic. It was the comedy, it just ended up being comic. But what I was aiming for was some kind of something more profound. And whilst I would still, I would still sort of, I would definitely say that there's a desire to say something profound. I acknowledge that I really like the comic aspect of it. And it is deliberately comic. And to be able to laugh at the work, to be able to laugh at anything in life is a gift, you know, it's the most joyful thing you can have almost. So I'm definitely trying to make myself laugh and I have a lot of people around me now who I'm try and make them laugh as well. So that's one of my, that's something I really enjoy. It's making other people laugh because I get a direct response.
- [40:14]
C
Well, I was gonna ask you that. So do I mean with a, let's say a stand up comedian or something, you know, they would obviously be trying out their laughs all the time in front of an audience. Are you trying stuff out in front
- [40:24]
A
of people that, you know, albeit the work is finished. So it's not gonna change, it's done. So I'm not gonna, it's not going anywhere and it's not going to be revised because people don't laugh. Also, unlike a comedian, one of the virtues of what I do is it doesn't actually have to be funny because it's art, it's just comic art that often is funny, but doesn't necessarily have to be. So that's good, that's always a gal clause. Whereas if you're actually a comedian, it's very binary. They laugh, it's good. They don't. It isn't. So that's why I could never be a comedian, because the burden of making people laugh would be too heavy to carry. I feel that now, I guess the main forum for people experiencing the work is social media. So they're looking at it on Instagram, but even then you're so not really sure if they're laughing or if they just like pictures of cats or whatever I've drawn.
- [41:24]
C
Has social media helped your career, would you say?
- [41:27]
A
Oh, yeah, I think so. I became an Instagram artist without really intending to or being told to do it. You know, I was told to do it, yeah. Comedy, yeah. I embrace comedy totally. And also I'm really aware that some of the work is just puerile, you know, but I'm sort of embraced that as well. It's totally fine to make something that's just really childish in amongst all the more slightly more complex comedy that I employ. But, yeah, yeah, it's comic art and it's. But I think there's something that you're kind of searching for, something that I'm searching for that is, it has to be very funny, but it also has to be sort of. Has to have some kind of meaning to it that resonates somehow that says something a little bit more than simply just funny in the moment, I suppose. So I guess that's what I'm searching for. But, you know, you probably instinctively understand that. Anyway, that's what I'm about. The other thing about comedy is if you start analyzing it, it ceases to be funny. I mean, we also, we all know that as well. So there is. It's almost like you don't want to look too hard at it and don't want to analyze it too much, otherwise it really will start to stop resonating.
- [42:53]
C
Yeah. If we were to ask a friend of yours, would they say that you are a funny person in everyday life?
- [43:02]
A
I probably am, yeah. But I'm not, you know, also I'm quite. Like I said, I'm quite, quite an introvert. So I. But left on my own devices in comfortable company. And I'm really, really childish. Really very, very childish in a way that I'm probably, you know, I'm on my best behavior now because there are people here and I have to talk sense. But when it's just me and people I'm with every day, we just constantly being as juvenile as we possibly can. I feel also that I'm 57 years old and that I can just do what I Like, I think once you've got past 50, it really doesn't matter as long as you're having a good time.
- [43:49]
C
Do you think so? That's interesting.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah. Yeah. There's a watershed, I think it's 50 where you can't be cool anymore. You can't. You're not young anymore, so just do whatever you like, it's fine. As long as you don't do anything that's against the law, it's fine.
- [44:07]
C
So tell me about your wife. How long have you guys been together?
- [44:10]
A
We've been together for almost 30 years, so, yeah.
- [44:13]
C
Wow, that's amazing.
- [44:13]
A
Long relationship? My wife's. My wife's a sort of lapsed artist, I suppose. She's studied art. Latterly did a master's at Glasgow School of Art, but we didn't meet until late 20s, so she has done a few different things. Done a bit of web design, done a bit of made art, but sort of fallen away from that, but with. Always with the intention of coming back to it. Did got really into gardening for a while. Done a lot of home renovation over the years. She's doing battle with builders as we speak in our house in Devon, which has turned into some grand design and all the difficulties that that entails of getting the bad tradesmen and having to fire them and having to do a lot herself. So that difficult.
- [45:03]
C
But are you building something from scratch?
- [45:06]
A
You'd be forgiven for thinking so, but not. We're not, actually. We're renovating a rather unimpressive 70s house and making it into something that, interior wise, is really, really nice to be in.
- [45:19]
C
You're working with an architect on that?
- [45:22]
A
No. And that was the problem. Yeah. I. In retrospect, you know how you. What you should have done, but it just wasn't to be. But we are anyway. It's been really hard for Kim to do it, but the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory. As we're saying, she's getting there now. Hopefully not too many months off being finished. And it does look really amazing. So, yeah, it's hard work. Unfortunately, there's been less creativity and it's more about resilience and attrition and having to redo things that errant builders have done wrong. So that's been hard. I mean, my job's been to earn the money to pay for it, which is actually the easy part. She's done the hard part. But we're also going to renovate this building, which is kind of my project, so I have employed an architect to do that. This studio building, which is kind of a slightly different scale but that, you know, there's another level of complexity.
- [46:28]
C
Well, let's talk about that. So David Cohn is the architect you're working with here, right?
- [46:32]
A
Yeah.
- [46:32]
C
So what's the plan here? And I mean just describe first of all this building.
- [46:37]
A
This is a building from the late 19th century and it was built as a vicarage for a church that doesn't exist anymore. But this is in a bit of a rundown state, needs a lot of work, leaky roof, damp basement, rotten windows. So I know David Kahn because he was the architect of the gallery that used to represent me in London, Steven Friedman Gallery. And he also did Stephen and his husband's house in Dorset, won an award for it. Amazing piece of work. So I knew David quite well anyway, so I asked him to come and take a look and we're not really changing it that much. Not really changing, not changing the footprint of it. It's really just about making it a lot more functional. A lot of work with the interior but exterior wise it's in a conservation area. So slightly limited as to what we can do. Still doing battle with the planning department. So hopefully we're going to do something with the roof that is much more. It's not necessarily about the structure of the roof but about what we're putting on the roof. So this, we're changing it from ugly concrete tiles hopefully we're changing it from ugly concrete tiles to zinc and solar panels, making it a lot more energy efficient, a lot more sustainable. So air source, heat pump, solar panels, proper insulation, taking away all the bad things that have been done to it over the years like putting concrete grout, concrete roof tiles, new PVC windows and yeah lots of blocked gutters and stuff and just making it breathe again and giving it new life. And then we're going to do lots of things with the interior which in a way is more interesting because obviously that's where the work gets made. So the layout will change a lot. You know it's incarnation when we bought it was as a. They did kind of yoga and Pilates in this room, like well being stuff. And then the rest of the building was like it training. So it was all grey carpet and electrical conduit and PC stations. So it's not a particularly nice building. Sort of has a very institutional aspect to it and because of the well being element there was all these showers in the basement, a lot of toilets. 15% of the floor space in this building is given over to bathrooms. So we're going to change that. We can have far fewer toilets and still have plenty. Gonna have, yeah, just space to store stuff, space to do stuff. A little bit of a workshop space to record things, audio stuff.
- [49:44]
C
What kind of thing will you do for audio then?
- [49:46]
A
Things like this, probably, yeah. But also we play a bit of music as well. Kind of in a. Sort of become part of the work in a way. But yeah, I like messing around with the guitar and stuff, so make some music. But I do a lot of. Historically, I've done a lot of spoken word things, which is always fun.
- [50:06]
C
I mean, the main question is, how do you hope that it will impact the work?
- [50:11]
A
You know, having a really nice studio space is the holy grail of most artists, I think. I mean, I can't speak for other artists, but I'm pretty sure that, you know, the thing that most artists want most in their lives more than making any work in a way, is to have this studio as it, you know, it is the most exciting space because it's where the work gets made. It's where it's a space of possibilities. So it's like a proposition, or at least facilitates propositions. It's your happy place as an artist. And if you've got a studio that's got everything that you want, it's got your bum washing toilet, your rice cooker, place to put your bike, park your car, electric charging point, functioning, fire alarm, all the obvious things, the scented candles. Yeah, you know, all the things you need as an artist.
- [51:15]
C
Would you go as far as to say that the studio is a home of sorts?
- [51:20]
A
Oh, definitely, yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess if you get divorced, a lot of artists end up living in their studio. So it can be exactly that. I'm not planning to get divorced, but, you know, cover all the bases. I think that. I think that it, like I said, it is the ultimate happy place, you know, to be to do your thing, the refuge. And it is a place which is, you know, isn't necessarily about, you know, sleeping and watching telly and it's kind of what you do at home. Maybe you read some books and eat your dinner, have a shower. But the studio is something where those mundane things kind of do that, but it's for something else. It's for this grand purpose, which is exciting. I think the more things you can have going on there, the better it is. Also the point I find myself, I feel like it's like my forever place, you know, because I'm of the age I am, I feel like I haven't got the energy or the money to do it again, I'm kind of spending all the money I've got to do it and then a bit more. So hopefully it'll be the space that will see me through. You know, if I can still hobble up down the stairs, I will do when I'm older. So, yeah, I feel like it's maybe a legacy project, you might call it that, but who knows? Nothing is forever. We know that, but it's as forever as I can anticipate.
- [53:00]
C
So my last question for you is, given everything we've talked about today, how would you personally define the word home? Because everyone has a different view on this. What do you think of when I mention that word home?
- [53:12]
A
Owned a few different homes, lived in a few different places, made a decision to leave. I'm one of those very privileged people who has two homes. I guess you've got to live somewhere, and that home is that place where you decide to live. But I think the interesting thing about the privileged position that I'm in is that I can live in different places and I can change because I don't, you know, don't have a regular job, don't have any kids. Even if I did have kids, they'd have probably grown up by now. So I've got freedom, you know, my wife, obviously, that has that freedom as well. So we've chosen to live in a place and somehow the choice is actually quite difficult. So, you know, the phrase that I use is you gotta live somewhere. Counter to everything I've just said, home is probably in here or in here. You know, it's in your head or in your heart. And you make all these grand plans, but sometimes they change. Sometimes you. And you end up living somewhere else. You end up living in an apartment at the Marina. And it's okay. It's fine. It's like, you know, you're lucky to have the apartment at the Marina or a tent or whatever. I think also, without wishing to be cloyingly cliched, we learn a lot from our pets. And my dog is really quite happy wherever we are. You know, the good thing about having a. Having a dog rather than a cat. Cats are all about places. Dogs are all about people. So I suppose it's really where your pack is that's the home. And whether it's the apartment and the Marina, the studio, the house in Hove
- [55:05]
C
or
- [55:07]
A
the Premier Inn, as long as the pack is there, it's fine.
- [55:12]
C
Fantastic. Great answer. Thank you so much. It's been brilliant.
- [55:16]
A
My pleasure.
- [55:19]
B
Many thanks to David for a very memorable day. If you'd like to watch the full studio tour, we'll be sharing that on Patreon. Highlights include a rummage and David's archive, some broken teapots, and a picture he drew with Andy Murray, of all people. You can also find us, of course, on YouTube and Instagram. Homingwithmat if you've been enjoying the podcast, please do leave us a rating or a review if you can be bothered. It really does help us out because
- [55:52]
C
it means other people can discover the show.
- [55:55]
B
Thank you so much for listening along. Homing doesn't exist without your support, so
- [55:59]
C
I really do appreciate appreciate it.
- [56:02]
B
This episode was produced by Pod Shop with music by Simeon Walker. See you next time. Bye for now.