Henry Holland on Reinvention, Resilience and a Home in Two Halves

Summary

---

Homing – Episode Summary

Episode

Podcast: Homing
Host: Matt Gibberd
Guest: Henry Holland
Title: "Henry Holland on Reinvention, Resilience and a Home in Two Halves"
Date: April 9, 2026

---

Overview

In this candid and wide-ranging episode, designer Henry Holland joins host Matt Gibberd at his East London Victorian terrace to discuss themes of home, creativity, resilience, and personal reinvention. Known for his iconic fashion brand, House of Holland, and more recently for his ceramics studio, Henry reflects on the dual influences of his upbringing, navigating adversity, the power of chosen family, and finding purpose and identity through the changing seasons of his life and career. The conversation delves into mental health, grief, authenticity in creative work, and the tangible and intangible qualities that define "home."

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood and Family Dynamics

• Divided Upbringing: Henry grew up splitting his time equally between his mum and dad’s houses in Ramsbottom, north of Manchester.
  • Dad’s house: ordered, structured;
  • Mum’s house: creative, holistic, and less conventional.
• Two Sides, Two Halves: The contrast in his childhood homes mirrored his personality’s duality—playful creativity and structured pragmatism.
  • "I'm a Gemini. I think we just have two very distinct sides... I have a very intense creative side, but I also have a kind of more ordered, structured...business side." – Henry [05:38]
• Mother’s Influence:
  • Deeply spiritual; practiced and taught manifestations, meditation, and positive thinking.
  • Authored books on positive living and introduced Henry to holistic wellness.
  • “One of the biggest roadblocks for so many people is a lack of belief in themselves... I just haven't had that internal saboteur voice... because of the belief system that I was brought up on." – Henry [12:05]
• Father’s Support:
  • Provided an unwavering belief in Henry and supported his creative pursuits, even at financial risk.

2. Adversity, Bullying and Resilience

• Bullying: Early teens marked by bullying at an all-boys’ school for being gay before he’d come out.
  • “The most difficult time in my childhood was me being bullied for being gay at an all boys school.” – Henry [16:29]
  • “The headmaster paraded me around the school with him to point out...the bullies...I'm so glad it was pre phones and social media.” – Henry [18:20]
  • Parents intervened, and he moved schools – a major turning point.
• Lasting Impact: Bullying catalysed a lifelong drive to prove doubters wrong, fueling career ambition but also contributing to burnout.
  • "If people are critical of my work...it literally lights a fire in my stomach...That has been reflective of my career throughout the years." – Henry [22:21]

3. The Value of Chosen Family and Friendships

• A Life Built on Friends: Henry’s close-knit group of northern friends and industry colleagues are “chosen family”—a value instilled by his mother.
  • “My entire world is built on my chosen family for sure.” – Henry [30:29]
  • “When you run your own business, [you get] the privilege...of choosing who you get to spend your day with.” – Henry [32:28]
• Notable Relationships: Deep friendship with Agyness Deyn, with whom he shared a home, highlighting the centrality of community in his success.

4. Fashion, Fun, and The Need for Authentic Work

• The Indie Sleaze Era: Henry’s early fashion career was entwined with London's nightlife in his 20s—seen as a "party guy" but also building his business through those networks, sometimes literally funding his company by paid appearances.
  • “I get paid to go out most nights of the week...I then go to the factory in the morning and release the goods that I haven't been able to pay for or I go...buy buttons...I was DJing. It was a way of me generating funds to keep my business going.” – Henry [33:44]
• Rise and Pivot: As his life shifted, so did the "brand essence" of House of Holland, making it harder to sustain when the lifestyle no longer resonated.
  • “When I did start a ceramics company when I was 38, it was the perfect alignment to who I was at 38.” – Henry [36:44]

5. Reinvention: From Fashion to Ceramics

• Closure and Renewal:
  • House of Holland closed in 2020, after years of mounting business stress.
  • Relief and gratitude followed devastation. “I didn’t have a single regret...I had the time of my life.” – Henry [38:25]
• Ceramics as Creative Outlet:
  • Began with three evening classes; lockdown spurred him to create at home, which swiftly became a new business.
  • “I had my first order from Liberty’s when it was just me...They ordered 500 pieces...I went into the shared studio the next day and just looked around the room, was like: ‘Anyone want a job?’” – Henry [41:30]
  • The tactile, home-based nature of ceramics reflected his new priorities for fun, meaning, and staying in.

6. Defining and Designing Home

• House in Two Halves:
  • Henry’s home is in mid-renovation; upstairs is finished, the lower levels and garden remain “as found.”
  • This mirrors his childhood and personality—structure meets creativity.
• Home Is Who’s There:
  • For Henry, “home” is not about place but people – his husband, David, and their dog, Larry the pug.
  • “Home for me is really...who’s there. Home for me right now is with my husband and my dog, and that can be anywhere.” – Henry [71:27]
• Victorian Park, East London:
  • Chosen for green space, sense of village, and community. Needs open horizons, a connection to childhood landscapes.

7. Daily Rituals, Self-Care, and Grief

• Rituals:
  • Walks at sunrise with coffee and Larry the pug, Sunday night baths, and previously structured gym routines.
  • “There’s something that's really sacred to me...just that sort of first hour of the day. And I’m usually on my own.” – Henry [51:05]
• Self-Care & Therapy:
  • Therapy following his mother’s death, proactive approach to mental health.
  • “I just instantly got a therapist...I wanted to do it properly and...not wake up in three years time thinking that I hadn’t dealt with that loss.” – Henry [53:41]
• Grief Experience:
  • Loss of mother coinciding with pandemic.
  • Sadness about hours lost but immense gratitude for extra time and her presence during Henry’s career shifts.
  • "Grief doesn’t get any less. It's just that life gets bigger...if you tap into that grief...it can become quite overwhelming again." – Henry [57:37]
  • Spiritual connection persists: “Her physical presence is gone. I know that she can be everywhere and she pretty much probably is.” – Henry [58:46]

8. Mental Health, Anxiety, and Creativity

• Anxiety History:
  • Panic attacks in university; managed through hypnotherapy.
  • “Through hypnotherapy, I was taught how to make myself have a panic attack. And then in turn that told me that I was the one doing it to myself.” – Henry [61:45]
• Creativity Tied to Fun:
  • Creativity is fun-motivated; painful periods make being creative harder, but ceramics became healing during grief.
  • “My ability to concentrate and focus is so motivated by fun...if he's not enjoying himself, you've got no chance.” – Henry quoting his mum [63:14]
• Outsider Energy & Imposter Syndrome:
  • Constant drive flows from outsider status and a relentless need to prove oneself.
  • “I definitely have an element of imposter complex as well...But something that I’ve learned to not allow in much more as I’ve got older...No one really knows what they're doing, are they?” – Henry [68:41]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Home for me is really...who’s there. Home for me right now is with my husband and my dog, and that can be anywhere.” – Henry [71:27]
• “The most difficult time in my childhood was me being bullied for being gay at an all boys school.” – Henry [16:29]
• “If people are critical of my work...it literally lights a fire in my stomach...That has been reflective of my career throughout the years.” – Henry [22:21]
• “I get paid to go out most nights of the week...it was a way of me generating funds to keep my business going.” – Henry [33:44]
• “When I did start a ceramics company when I was 38, it was the perfect alignment to who I was at 38.” – Henry [36:44]
• “My entire world is built on my chosen family for sure.” – Henry [30:29]
• “Grief doesn’t get any less. It's just that life gets bigger to the point that it...surpasses the grief.” – Henry [57:37]
• “[Creativity] is so motivated by fun. My mum said...if he's not enjoying himself, you’ve got no chance.” – Henry [63:14]
• “I definitely have...imposter complex...No one really knows what they're doing, are they?” – Henry [68:41]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Upbringing, Dual Homes: [04:20] – [08:14]
• Spirituality and Manifestation: [09:19] – [13:28]
• Bullying and its Impact: [16:29] – [23:28]
• Friendships and Chosen Family: [29:54] – [34:44]
• Fashion Career, Branding, and Parties: [33:44] – [38:25]
• House of Holland Closure & Ceramics Pivot: [39:17] – [44:36]
• The Meaning of Home, Current House: [44:36] – [52:38]
• Rituals and Self-Care: [51:05] – [54:05]
• Grief and Losing Mother: [54:05] – [59:58]
• Mental Health, Anxiety Stories: [60:29] – [62:51]
• Creativity & Fun: [63:14] – [65:04]
• Outsider Energy & Imposter Syndrome: [67:15] – [70:21]
• Defining Home (Final Question): [71:23] – [71:58]

---

Tone & Style

Henry is open, energetic, and wry, able to discuss both vulnerability and joy. The conversation is fluid—moving from practical details of making and living, to matters of the heart and spirit—with moments of humor and heartfelt wisdom.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers an intimate portrait of Henry Holland: a restless creator shaped by the interplay of order and chaos, adversity and affection, work and home. Listeners are left with a sense that reinvention is both a response to external change and a deeper alignment with who we are—and that home, ultimately, is forged by the people and rituals that anchor us through it all.

Transcript

[Henry Holland]

When I started House of Holland, I was 22 and all I wanted to do was go out every night of the week. When I did start a ceramics company when I was 38, it was the perfect alignment to who I was at 38.

[Matt Gibbard]

Staying in.

[Henry Holland]

It's staying in and looking at the mantelpiece, right? Looking at nice vases and turning on a nice lamp. You know, if people were critical of my work, it literally lights a fire in my stomach to go out and work harder, do things bigger, better, and I think that's something that isn't always healthy. My ability to, like, concentrate and focus is so motivated by fun. Remember my mum having an argument with the math teacher because he was like, he just doesn't concentrate and he just doesn't focus. And she instantly replied, was like, well, are you making it fun? And he was like, maths isn't fun. And she went, well, there's your problem. Home for me is really. Who's there? Home for me right now is with my husband and my dog, and that can be anywhere.

[Matt Gibbard]

Hi, folks.

[Podcast Narrator]

Welcome back to Homing with Me, Matt Gibbard. Today my guest is the lovely Henry Holland. Henry, of course, made his name with his fashion brand House of Holland, which became known for its clothes bearing cheeky slogans, saying things like do me daily, Christopher Bailey and let's Breed Bella Hadid. More recently, he's pivoted to homewares. So Henry Holland Studio makes beautiful ceramics using a Japanese technique called Nerikomi, which gives it a kind of swirling marbled finish. Today I've come to Henry Holland from House of Holland's house, which isn't a house in Holland, it's a house in East London, and a very nice one it is too. It's a Victorian terrace that he shares with his husband David, and their dog, Larry the pug. Henry's busy refurbishing it from the top down, so it's a bit of a home of two halves in some ways. There's some lovely bedrooms and bathrooms upstairs filled with his lighting designs and his fabrics. Some photos by his friend Martin Parr and various suggestive objects like a glass banana. And downstairs is still as he found it, with holes in the walls and a pretty manky old kitchen. As it turns out, this is a bit of a metaphor for the podcast as a whole. Henry's parents separated when he was young and he split his time between the two households. One was ordered and structured while the other one was more creative. And that tends to be how he lives his life. There's the Playful version of him that we've seen pictured at many parties over the years. But there's also a deeply determined side that's very much about proving people wrong, which partly I find out, stems from the bullying he experienced when he was younger. He's not afraid to reveal his sensitivities, and we discussed everything from panic attacks to imposter syndrome, and also the huge disappointment of closing down his fashion brand. He reveals the importance of his friends in his life, and he sweetly describes them as his chosen family. I really enjoyed meeting with Henry. He's a really, really fun guy, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

[Matt Gibbard]

Hi, Henry.

[Henry Holland]

Hi.

[Matt Gibbard]

Should we start with a couple of caveats? Yes, I think we should. Caveat number one.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

You've got the lurgy.

[Henry Holland]

I have got the lurgy. I don't often sound this sexy, but I've luckily just saved this for you. I do. I'm coming through the other side of. But, you know, not sure when this will be broadcast, but we're currently in the midst of the floo Nami.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay, so that's caveat number one. Caveat number two is that we're recording this in a room that is not officially ready for consumption viewing.

[Henry Holland]

I'm not even going to tell my husband we filmed it in here. We live in.

[Matt Gibbard]

All right, so it's very good of you to allow us to do it in here, but it's the best place in terms of the setup, the acoustics set up.

[Henry Holland]

Acoustics daylight overrode the tens of thousands of pounds I've spent on renovating the upper floors of my home. But you go ahead, guys. I'm just here for your purposes. As you were.

[Matt Gibbard]

Good. All right, well, let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up?

[Henry Holland]

So I grew up north of Manchester in a place called Ramsbottom, which is now very chic. And on the Sunday Times Best places to live list, everywhere is. Yeah. So 25. Come on. And it was. It was a great place to grow up. I grew up between my mum's house and my dad's house, so I split my time equally. I would change houses every Sunday, but they were both around the same area, like five minutes away from each other. So kind of quite a rural place, but not far away from Manchester.

[Matt Gibbard]

So when did they break up? Or were they never together or what was the story there?

[Henry Holland]

They broke up when I was around three.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

So was it literally one week on, one week off?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I think my mum's work meant that she worked away Quite a lot. So as I got older, she would work away more often and then I would stay for sort of two weeks at a time or three weeks at a time, just depending on her schedule. But I did that until, I think when I was about 16, 17 maybe, my mum bought a one bedroom apartment and so I got the message,

[Matt Gibbard]

well, we should come back to that because that's interesting. But I mean, looking back on it then, what was that like for you, having that splitting the time between the two?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, I think for me it worked really well. I don't know how much you believe in astrology, but I'm a Gemini. I think we just have two very distinct sides, and that applies to lots of different areas of my life. I think in business and in work, I have a very intense creative side, but I also have a kind of more ordered, structured, kind of business, financial side that I can tap into if I have to. It's my last favorite, but I'm able to. And then similarly with growing up, having those two different environments, you know, they were structured quite differently. You know, my dad's house was quite ordered, it had a lot more structure. My mum's less so. But, you know, that kind of. That worked for me. You know, I was able to kind of maneuver into both of those atmospheres quite well.

[Matt Gibbard]

I quite enjoyed it, really. Interesting.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Did you have a preferred place to be?

[Henry Holland]

Not really, depending on the time. I mean, my sister was at my dad's and so I always enjoyed being there and spending time with my sister. But then me and my mum were really close and so I loved spending time at my mum. And when it was at my mum's, it was just me and my mum quite often. And so I loved that for different reasons. You know, it was really fun. So, no, I didn't have a favorite at all. They were just different.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah. Why was your sister at your dad's then?

[Henry Holland]

I think for her the moving was too much. She's kind of. Her personality, she's less. She doesn't like change as much. She likes routine and things like that. Whereas I love change and I love things being different and, you know, moving around and things I find really exciting. Whereas I think, you know, as a teenage girl, kind of in her early teens, she just decided she wanted one bedroom and, you know, all of her things in one place, really.

[Matt Gibbard]

Is she younger or older?

[Henry Holland]

Older.

[Matt Gibbard]

Older. Okay. Is there a sense that you. Did you feel. Are you a bit of a pleaser in some way that you felt like you wanted to be with Both of them in equal measure. Is there something about that? Maybe.

[Henry Holland]

I am definitely a bit of a people pleaser. Got a song in my head now saying that line. A people pleaser. Who is that? It's an awful song to have in your head as well. It's gonna be there for all day, I guess. But no, I just never felt like I needed to choose. I felt okay having the two spaces. It worked for me. I loved spending time with my mum and she wasn't there all the time. You know, she moved and traveled for work.

[Matt Gibbard]

And why was she traveling then? What did she do?

[Henry Holland]

Her work? She was a management training consultant. She worked a lot and she worked a lot in hotels and she would do kind of training courses and off site training courses. And then later, when I was about 12, she bought a chateau in central France. And so gradually that became more and more of her work and she would spend more and more of the year over in France. So she renovated that from being kind of quite dilapidated chateau that was being kind of lived in maybe four rooms into like 16 suites. And it was kind of a wedding venue and a chambredeau and bed and breakfast. And so she was out there for the majority of the summer months, kind of May to October. And that was just a gradual transition, I guess, as I kind of got through school and got a bit older. So I think maybe when I was about 16, 17, she bought a smaller place in the UK and spent more time in France. And so I would be out in France to see her in holidays and, you know, do my A levels.

[Matt Gibbard]

Was that okay though, that you saw less of her at that point?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, yeah, it was fine. It was fine. Yeah. I mean, it was absolutely fine. Fine. Sounds like I'm kind of denying that it was fine. It's fine. I know, like, I need to think of a better word. It was great because when I did spend time with her, it was for elongated periods and out in France. So it was my holidays. It was my summers and Easters and Christmases and they were just really special times for different reasons.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Am I right in saying that she also did some sort of meditation work as well?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, she did. So she kind of went on a really holistic spiritual journey that started with her first breast cancer diagnosis, which was when I was around 8. And she went to Vishpassana, which is a really intense five day meditation course where you can't speak, you sleep on straw mattresses, you meditate eight hours a day. It's like a really intense process. And she did that. And ever since after that, she would meditate every morning. So I'd come down and get ready for school and she'd be sat cross legged in the middle of the living room under a. And scare the shit out of me in the dark. And then that sort of really started a kind of more holistic approach to her kind of health and medicine. And then she got really into aromatherapy. She was always into homeopathy. I remember from being really little, I was my head for my hay fever. I was always on pollens and grasses that I would take early spring to kind of build up my resistance for later in the summer. But then that kind of just evolved and got more intense. I think when she started that more holistic journey from me being. Yeah. Kind of 8 to 10 years old. Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Did she teach you how to meditate?

[Henry Holland]

Bits. Bits. So she used to do. She did the silver technique as well. She would teach me.

[Matt Gibbard]

What's that?

[Henry Holland]

This technique where you sort of hold the sort of the three fingers of your two hands together and then when you close your eyes, you look down. It feels very unnatural. So like when you close your eyes, your eyes naturally look up to the sky. But then if you, if you look down, I think it's called going to center. That was something she taught me. Positive Affirmations with Louise Hay. She would teach me manifesting. She taught me. She wrote books about living, like Positive Thought and you know, Power of the Mind as well. She had a book called Living Positively with Stephanie Holland. Yeah. So there's kind of a real belief system that she kind of instilled in me.

[Matt Gibbard]

So practically, how would you manifest something so practically?

[Henry Holland]

Manifesting really is just about like really seeing and believing what it is that you want. It's not about sitting back and waiting for it to happen by any means. You know, I think there's some people that have this resistance to the manifest. Manifesting is a term that they think. People just think if they manifest it, it's gonna happen. But it's really about like really believing that you can. For me it's more about believing that you can achieve what it is you set out to achieve and manifesting that and manifesting the finish. And I think when you look at my career and the fact that I started a fashion business with zero training at 22 and no clue and 200 pounds in my pocket. And then again at 38, I started a ceramics business after having three evening classes. I guess that is a reflection of my ability to be able to kind of believe that I am able to achieve the things that I set out to achieve. It's not about an arrogance by any means because I definitely work really hard to achieve the things that I set out to achieve. But I think one of the biggest roadblocks for so many people is a lack of belief in themselves that they can do certain things. They're like, oh, I could never do that because of X, Y and Z. I just haven't had that internal saboteur voice to the same level because of the belief system that I was brought up on.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's great, isn't it?

[Henry Holland]

I think. Yeah, it's a real gift.

[Matt Gibbard]

It's a real gift, isn't it? Okay, so sounds like your mum taught you a lot on that front. What about your dad? What did you take from him, do you think so?

[Henry Holland]

I learned so much from my dad as well. My dad had the same job from, I think from graduating. You know, he's a lawyer, he was a conveyancer, he ran his own company, ran his own business and you know, just understanding what that meant to work for yourself and you know that having a job wasn't necessarily just about a 9 to 5. It was about building something and growing something and you know, working around that to make that happen. I think I've got a really strong work ethic. And also, you know, my dad doesn't necessarily practice manifestation or positive thinking, but he has. His unwavering belief in me has also allowed me to continue on that path. You know, when I was 22 and I started House of Holland, my fashion company, my parents had put their pensions into a flat for me and my best friend to buy. And so rather than pay rent, we would just pay the mortgage and then everyone got their money back with the increases and everyone did really well out of it, by the way. But even though my parents had put their money into this house and so I had a mortgage and I found my dad at 22 and I had a full time job in magazines and I was like, I'm giving up my job to make these T shirts that say flick your bean on them. He was like, great, go for it. You know, I think that he's never questioned my decisions. You know, he's always been really, really encouraging in anything that I've set out to do. And then when, you know, I went through an administration and my fashion business was sold off, you know, both him and my stepmom were just so encouraging and so reassuring. They were like, we're not worried about you, you're going to be fine. You know, and like, when I had those moments where I could have potentially gone into a moment of self doubt and pity and misery of like, oh, everything I've worked for has gone away and you know, I've failed or whatever, you know, it was their voice just saying, you're gonna be fine. Honestly, we have this, we completely believe in you. And I think what I learned from them is that whatever it is that I set out to do, as long as I try my best at it and you know, I set out to do it, well, then go for it, really.

[Matt Gibbard]

So a lot of the people I talk to on the podcast, they talk quite similarly about parents who instilled in them certain values and they've taken through and helped them be successful. Often they also talk about some kind of adversity that they had to deal with when they were young as well. Or instead of, in your case, can you pinpoint anything on that front? I mean, what was the most sort of difficult time of your childhood, do you think?

[Henry Holland]

The most difficult time in my childhood was me being bullied for being gay at an all boys school. I went to a very traditional all boys school when I was about eight years old. We had to call the female teachers, sir.

[Matt Gibbard]

Seriously?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, this is in 1990, I guess. And the female teachers were like, oh, it's just easier, there's only a couple of us. Cause like, accidentally you'd be like, oh, sir, oh, sorry, miss. You know, they'd be like, we called female teachers s. Which my mum, being a massive feminist, really struggled with. But it was the school that all of my family went to. My dad, my mum went to the same school, but they were separate boys schools and girls schools. And they were very kind of culturally very different, the boys school and the girls school. So it was a boys school of like 1200 boys. Pretty early on, as is often the case, the bullies figured out I was gay before I did.

[Matt Gibbard]

What age are we talking here?

[Henry Holland]

I was probably. It was my first year in C senior school, so 11, just 11 going into 12. And I really struggled with that. And I, I kind of, I really went insular. I really went in on myself again. It's thanks to my parents that really recognized that that wasn't right for me. It was, you know, it was a challenge for my dad in a way because it was like a tradition. It was a tradition that all of us went to the same school, but it was actually my, my stepmom and my mum who, you know, really encouraged him to let me move to a different School and so I moved to a much smaller school, bit further away. But I was a big fish in a small pond and that just suited me really well and I was just really able to be myself. And on the first day of that school I met my best friend who still my best friend to this day, who I ran my fashion company with for 15 years together. So it was a really special place where, you know, I was just able to be who I was.

[Matt Gibbard]

So you said that the bullies figured out your sexuality before you did. So talk me through that.

[Henry Holland]

I mean, I guess so. I mean before I was ready to or willing to, you know, I guess it's coming to terms of being gay is not something I didn't struggle with it that much really, to be honest, because you know, my, like everyone in my mum's life was gay. Like all of my mum's friends were like David and Justin. It wasn't like Anne. And so like, you know, whenever my mum's friends came for holidays or Christmases or you know, dinner parties, it was definitely not, you know, a heteronormative environment by any means. If anything it was like, you know, it was a bit too easy, you know, like I think when you, when you're coming to terms of being gay, it's like you're always kind of, you build it up in your head that it's like a much bigger deal for everybody else than it is and they pretty much, they already know and they don't care, but you kind of build up into this sort of thing that kind of makes you panic. So I came out about 17, 18, but only didn't come out sooner because I almost didn't want to give my parents the satisfaction of being right. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're an 18 year old, you don't want to give your parents the justification, but it is just a worry. It's like this secret that you're carrying, I guess, but. And sort of when I was in that all boys school, a really masculine environment, you know, it was all about football, it was all about army cadets. It was a very traditional environment. And then when I did find my parents recognized something was wrong, I was, you know, becoming really quiet and insular and you know, they went to the school to talk about it. I told them that I was being bullied and the headmaster paraded me around the school with him to point out, point out the bullies. Like it's just not how that, hopefully that's not how that is managed in today's world. And I'm so glad that it was pre phones and social media because I don't know how I would have dealt with that. But yeah, they just, they didn't really manage it very well. And so, yeah, I went, which was a real blessing and I went to a much, a much better environment where I was encouraged to be myself and I felt comfortable to be myself. And it was less academic, which I guess was one of my dad's concerns, but.

[Matt Gibbard]

But you're happy?

[Henry Holland]

I was happy, yeah. And I got enough to get to do. I got enough to do my A levels and then I got enough A levels to go to university. So what else is there?

[Matt Gibbard]

The bullying period, how do you reflect on that in terms of. Has it sort of contributed to anything? Do you.

[Henry Holland]

Yes, it definitely has contributed to a inbuilt, incessant need to prove people wrong. If I think they don't believe I can do something, it's a bit like I need to prove those bullies that I can achieve whatever it is I want. And then I think, you know, later, working in fashion or working in any creative field, to be honest, when your work is critiqued and reviewed and yet it's an objective point of view, whether is good or not, then that kind of fight was reignited, you know, if people were critical of my work or if people are critical of me ever, it literally lights a fire in my stomach to go out and work harder, be, you know, do things bigger, better, harder, faster, and prove them wrong, really. And I think that's something that isn't always healthy. You know, I can often work myself to sound like this. Pretty much this time of year. Every year my body gives up just two weeks before the holidays.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Like, I almost get there and then my body's like, nah, too far.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

But, yeah, so I don't always kind of look after myself as much as I should because I'm trying to. There's a need to prove something to myself as well, I think as well.

[Matt Gibbard]

So. Interesting, isn't it?

[Henry Holland]

But I almost, I'm always thankful for that. Oh yeah, that fire.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Like, I'm almost thankful like that period. I remember that period being so dark and so miserable and thank God it was only about a year of my life. And that again is thanks to my parents, you know, for recognizing that I needed to be somewhere else and allowing me to do that. And I'm so grateful. But at the same time, it did really instill in me this need to like a real, like, I'll show you kind of Thing. And I think that has been reflective of my career throughout the years.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, I can see that. That makes a lot of sense. Where did your interest in fashion come from?

[Henry Holland]

I was always obsessed with fashion from being from. For as long as I can remember when I was really little. Cause I had the two homes, my parents, we would go shopping and I'd. My clothes were always bought in outfits. So everything always had a corresponding top and a bottom or like the T shirt with the matching shorts or the jumper with the matching trousers or whatever. And whenever we were buying me clothes, I'd buy everything twice. So I'd have one set at my mum's house and one set at my dad's house. And then obviously, as you get older and you have more personal choice and personal style, you want to buy your own things and you get your own allowance and pocket money, whatever. So then I would start to move my clothes with me and I would just go into the wardrobe and just gather all the hangers, just like squish them all together and then place them in the boot of the car and then get to the next house and then hang them back up. I've got it down to like a fine art. Literally, I could swap out. It'd be like, take me 10 minutes. And so, I don't know, just from really early on, I recognized the power of fashion and its ability to kind of connect you to the people you wanted to be connected to. In terms of style, tribes in schools. And as a teenager, you sort of dress to attach yourself to the tribe you want to be attached to. Right. So I was a skateboarder. Wear lots of baggy pants and wallet chains and hoodies. When I was like, about 13, 14, I used to. We grew up next to a dry ski slope, so I used to go snowboarding as well, like two nights a week. And so that was kind of our style. I don't know, I just really loved fashion from being. You know. My earliest memories would be, like, going shopping with my mum and my sister and like, being so excited to, like, run off by myself and find them a pair of shoes to match the skirt that they just bought. Typical little gay kid running around Mark Spencer's trying to look for a court shoe in a primrose yellow pretty much. But then when I started to think about what I was gonna study, I got some really good advice from a friend of my mum's who said, you know, I was like, I kind of want to do something in like, fashion and media. And it was when media studies was like, first a thing, but then there was this real thing of like, media studies isn't a proper degree or whatever. People were quite like, you know, dismissive of it. And a friend of my mum's who was in that world, she said, why don't you do a journalism degree? Because then you're learning a skill that you can apply to any, any sphere in the future. You can write about sport, you can write about never gonna happen, you can write about fashion, you can write about architecture, you can write about travel, anything you want to that you'll later, you know, figure out is what you want to, you know, the, the world you want to be a part of. Then journalism is a really good route to any of those things. And I thought I was looking back at really amazing advice. I'm really grateful for it. So I did do that and I did a journalism degree and then in my head a journalism. Journalism encompassed, you know, writing the Face and Dazed and Confused and id. And that was my world of journalism. And then I went to my first week of lectures and it was about theology and politics. And the lecturers were like, when you go and work for the local newspaper and work your way up to the news desk, and then you eventually start to work on the features department at the Guardian. And I was like, oh, God, made a mistake. And so I tried to move to a fashion course after four days. Days.

[Matt Gibbard]

Four days, wow.

[Henry Holland]

Because I was at the. I was at the London College of Printing, which is part of the University of the Arts. So it was Center St. Martin's London College of Fashion, London College of Printing, and another one, I think, which is now in London College of Communications. And I was in these halls of residence and the halls were some students were from St. Martin, some students were from London College of Fashions in my flat, that. So I was surrounded by these fashion students and then was just like, hang on, all these people are doing fashion? And like, some of the people doing fashion weren't even into fashion as much as I was. And I was like, I'm doing the wrong thing here. And so I tried to change my course and the course director was like, it's too late. You know, I'd love to meet with you and talk about this, but come back next year. And I'm far too impatient. That's another thing, you know, when I set my mind to doing something, I'm hell bent on doing it until it's achieved. And so I was like, I'm not waiting a year. I'll just get on and do this Journalism degree. But I will do everything that I can around that to build fashion credentials. So I set about emailing and contacting anyone that I had any sort of route to, to literally be an intern to work with them in the fashion sphere. And so around my degree, I was doing all of these different internships. I did an internship at Fairchild that has like W and Womenswear Daily. I was like a stylist assistant for someone that used to work for like Dazed and Confused. And then I found myself as a fashion assistant intern at a teen magazine called Smash Hits and Sneaky and never left. Basically fell in love with it, Fell in love with the team, fell in love with the people that was working there. Some still some of my closest friends, but just the idea of working in the world of fashion but in this space that wasn't too serious, that didn't take itself too seriously. And then after a few months, my boss left to move jobs and I think I was 21. And they interviewed me for the fashion editor job job. So while I was throughout my degree. Sorry, I was working two days as a fashion assistant.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Henry Holland]

For my final two years. And then I did my last exam on the Friday, started full time at the magazine on the Monday. So I straight through into work.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Henry Holland]

Didn't have a day off. It was the, like. I remember going to get our results for our degree and then going into the office in the afternoon and everyone being like, how'd you do? And I was already working full time. It's great.

[Matt Gibbard]

It's brilliant, isn't it? You mentioned the word friendships there and I wanted to ask you about friendships.

[Henry Holland]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

Cause that seems to me such a key ingredient of who you are as well.

[Henry Holland]

Huge.

[Matt Gibbard]

So a very good friend of yours, Agnes Dean, the model was, correct me if I'm wrong, but seemed to be the face of that whole moment, that sort of generation, the face of Indy sleaze.

[Henry Holland]

It's now been coined by indieslee's wasn't really a term back then, but of a real moment in time, for sure. Cultural moment in time.

[Matt Gibbard]

Cultural moment. So how did you meet her?

[Henry Holland]

So we met Agnes. She used to work in the chip shop in the village next to where I grew up. We met through friends at about age 13, I think. You know, when you go to like the local nightclub, when you manage to blag your way in at 15. We used to go to the same nightclub, you know, like underage drink in the same pubs and things like that. And I was always kind of like, I think you should be a Model and I was like really in that sort of, into the sort of fashion scene. I was always encouraging her to try out for being, for doing modeling stuff. And then she got an agency up in Manchester when I had just started at university. So she used to come and share my single bed when she got jobs down in London. And then after my second year at university, we moved in together and lived together in London. So she was sort of a jobbing model in London and I was doing my third year in my degree and then we bought a house together and then lived together until she moved to New York in about 2009, I think. Okay, so like really close friends, but like my, my entire world is built on my chosen family for sure. Again, that's something that I really learned a lot from, from my mom. I think she really instilled in me the importance of friendships and how people are more than that chosen family. You know, I don't have, I don't have any issues with my family family. You know, we love each other and we get on really well, but my chosen family is just as important to me and has been so pivotal in my life. I think I moved to London at 18. I've now been here longer than I was up north. So I've been here for 24 years. And that whole time period of adulthood has been supported and uplifted and you know, really like taken through that period thanks to my chosen family and also running my own companies and working for myself. That has also played into my, you know, I'm so aware and grateful of the fact that one of the biggest privileges you have when you run your own business is choosing who you get to spend your day with, you know, five days a week. And so I started my first company with my best friend and now I run my ceramics company with my husband. And so I thrive in that way of building something with people that I love is so much a part of my working life.

[Matt Gibbard]

So who else is in your chosen family?

[Henry Holland]

Oh, so many. So I mean, so my, my oldest, you know, I have so many friends from up north. We have a really close knit group of friends who now all live down here. So people are often like, but still sound quite northern. It's because I spend my time with northerners. I might live here, but I spend my time with just northerners. So like, you know, my best friends Neil and Jess and Monkey, like we're all, you know, we grew up together in the north and now we just sort of migrated together.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's really nice, isn't It.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

So that whole mid noughties period. Oh yeah, yeah, there was a lot going. Like, you were at a lot of parties, weren't you?

[Henry Holland]

You, let's be honest, so many people refer to me being at a lot of parties. And you're right, I was in my mid-20s, I was living in Camden and I started to get invited to every party going pretty much. So who isn't going to go to those parties? But I think my, my slight frustration with it is I'm often asked, I remember going for some funding once from like applying to a fund to. And I presented my business plan and it was completely proficient and I talked my way through the balance sheet and the P and L and my five year projections. This is what I'm going to do with your funding and this is how I'm going to spend it and this is why. And one of the older ladies on the panel was like, well, how are you going to do all this? Because we all know you don't stay in every night. And I sort of lost it a little bit because that's a real frustration for me. And I was like, well, actually I get paid to go out most nights of the week and then when I get paid, I then go to the factory in the morning and release the goods that I haven't been able to pay for or I go to bloody supplies and buy buttons. Like I was DJing. It was a way of me generating funds to keep my business going quite often. And I'm 22, so what, you know, at the same time. But, but yes, it was a really exciting time where we were part of a real sort of cultural movement and that. And also that from a, from a business perspective, the clothes I was making was very much built around that frenetic energy of like that scene and that kind of, you know, that nightlife scene. And you know, I was making clothes for people to wear to all of these parties. And so it really played into my career to be seen as that party guy. And it worked and it allowed me to build a real community and a real kind of personality and a real sort of essence around the brand that I was building. And I think one of the reasons that I struggled further down the line with maintaining the brand to the same level was because I was tired. I was like, I was in my mid to late 30s and you know, I no longer wanted to go out five nights a week. And yet the brand that I'd created was, had its, had its roots so deeply embedded in that scene. And I was Creating these sort of clothes for pop stars and, you know, to wear to parties and, you know, nightclubs. And that was kind of the. The. The vibe of the brand that we created. And when you create a really strong essence of a brand, it can, you know, it's its strength, as long as it still authentically connects to you as the figurehead. And when it wasn't doing that anymore, I struggled. And that's why when I did start a ceramics company when I was 38, it was the perfect alignment to who I was at 38.

[Matt Gibbard]

Staying in.

[Henry Holland]

It's staying in and looking at the mantelpiece, right. Looking at nice vases and turning on a nice lamp. But like, I, you know, when I was. When I started House of Holland, I was 22, and all I wanted to do was go out every night of the week. And so it was the perfect reflection of who I was. And that's why it was an authentic brand that was built off this real sense of authenticity. I just made slogan T shirts because all I wanted to wear to the club nights that I was going to were slogan T shirts and, you know, in these acid bright colors. And then when I got to 38, all I wanted to do was is, you know, make pottery and listen to a podcast. And that's what I built a business on. So I have to be kind of doing something that is really authentically connected to who I am in that moment.

[Matt Gibbard]

It makes a lot of sense.

[Henry Holland]

And so I think to a lot of people, you're like, from fashion to ceramics, it's quite a jump. But to me, it feels very normal.

[Matt Gibbard]

Can I just pick up on something you said? Did you get paid then to go to a lot of these parties? Is that how it works? And. And they want you there with your buddies for a photo. And who's paying for that? The brand that's holding the event. Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

So interesting. It's so interesting.

[Henry Holland]

I'm being really cagey. Yeah, yeah. It's an entire industry.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Paid to parties. An entire industry. Paris Hilton claims she started it. She's probably right. But if you're a PR company hosting an event and you want to get that event publicized in certain. Certain media, then you. It. You know, it becomes. But back. Back then, to be honest, more often than not, I went because it was free bar, and, you know, I was 24.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, also, if you can all be wearing your slogan T shirts, then basically.

[Henry Holland]

Right. And when you're in your mid-20s, you've got the energy and the appetite to do it, and you know, you don't want to miss out. There's a real sense of fear of missing out. And you want to be a part of those cultural moments. Moments. And we were having the time of our lives. I think when House of Holland finished, I was really reflective and I looked back over the. The period and I didn't have a single regret that of how. Of how anything happened. And I was just so overwhelmed with gratitude that I got to do what to what I did for nearly 15 years. And I had the time of my life. It was literally know I couldn't imagine anything more suited to what I dreamt of doing and being in my 20s.

[Matt Gibbard]

So given that, what. What was it like when it went into administration? It was 2020, wasn't it?

[Henry Holland]

2020. It was just as we went. It was literally as we went into the pandemic.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. How did it feel?

[Henry Holland]

It was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking. It was devastating. And as. And as. But I think it was probably the year running up to that for me, because you're having to keep a brave face on, knowing the challenges behind the scenes, but knowing that every single month you're awake for like weeks on end worrying about the salaries. Cause you've got 20 people in the room whose rent you're responsible for. And as I said, I've always seen my teams at work as a chosen family as well as, you know, not at work. And I really felt the pressure and the weight of the struggles that we were going through. And you sort of feel it in isolation because you can't really share it with the team. It's not appropriate to let them know how on the edge things are. And at the same time, you're trying to do every single thing that you can to maintain and protect everything. And it's the year before. You know, the minute you make the decision is when all of that pressure lifts off your shoulders. My shoulders, physically and figuratively, were like up by my ears for a good two years. And the minute I made that decision that it was the right thing to do, to put it into administration, and it was sold on, a lot of that pressure lifted because, you know, I wasn't holding all of that tension in myself anymore. And then very quickly I moved into that place of gratitude of just like so grateful that I was able to do what I did for so long and just really proud and excited to look back at all the things that I did achieve. But it was. I think it was the year prior to the actual decision that was the really hard, heartbreaking Time, home.

[Matt Gibbard]

And then where did the pivot into homewares come from?

[Henry Holland]

Pretty quick. So I think it was about two or three months. I had maybe a couple of months off. Obviously, we were all in lockdown. I really quickly realized that I needed a creative output. So not necessarily a creative outlet, but an output. Like, I just love making things, and I love the process of having an idea, developing a product, creating that and that then becoming a physical thing. And I just. I really quickly realized, you know, initially I was like, I'll just consult for other people and I'll tell them how to spend their money, and I won't have the pressure of having to find the money to make the ideas a reality. And very quickly I realized that whilst that was, you know, less pressured, it wasn't really kind of fulfilling my sort of thirst and need to create things. And so I started having some ceramics lessons, sort of evening classes, and I had, I think, three or four. And then the lockdowns got more and more intense, and it was, you know, we were able to stretch it a little bit more because it was an educational activity. And so we were able to kind of bend it a little bit. And then lockdowns just got worse and worse. And then it was no longer possible to kind of go and have these classes and anymore. So I just ordered a lot of clay to the kitchen. And that Christmas, when we were not even allowed to see family, that first one, I was just in the kitchen making tableware, and my husband was like, will you shut up? I'm trying to watch a film. And I ordered all these clays to the house, and, like, you know, I was just making it at the kitchen table, like, literally physically at the kitchen table. And then sort of at moments when we were allowed to going to use the kilns at the place where I'd had these classes. And that's when it kind of started, really. And then my teacher who taught me ceramics, she moved back to Istanbul because travel was getting kind of cut off, and she was worried she was not going to be able to get back to her family. And so she moved back to Istanbul. And I was like, who's taking your studio? And she was like, no one. I was like, oh, it. So then I really quickly had my own studio. And then it really. It kind of. It grew really quickly. So it was a shared studio of five people. And one of those people still works with me today. So I basically. I got my first order from Liberty's when it was just me on my own making these pots. And they ordered 500 pieces, 600 pieces. And my husband was like, well, you can't do that. And I was like, of course I can. I was like, I'll figure it out, I'll make it happen. And so I went into the shared studio the next day and just looked around. The room was like, anyone want a job? And a couple of them did and helped me and now one of them still works with me today. So I sort of really commandeered that shared studio space for a few months. I was quite cheeky. I was like, do you need that shelf? Do you need that shelf? And then quickly got my own studio and kind of it built from there.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, you're sitting next to one of your lamps and there's quite a lot of your pieces in here. So let's talk about this house then. Yeah, it's very much a house of two halves, isn't it? So explain that.

[Henry Holland]

It is. It's a house of two halves. And I don't know if you noticed, but the garden as you enter the house is also one of two halves. So the house is double fronted. On one side of the house, the garden's been landscaped and done. On the other side it hasn't. So it's giving people an idea of what they're about to enter. Right. So one side of the garden we've kept because we know we still loads to rip out and it's gonna just have to sit and ruin any garden that gets done in the first. So we're holding that space. Yeah. So we started the renovation of the house last year and we did the renovation from the top down. So any mess just sort of comes out through the house. Rather than kind of doing the ground floor and then doing the attic and just taking all that dust and mess up back through all those nicely done rooms.

[Matt Gibbard]

Why didn't you do it all at once?

[Henry Holland]

We didn't do it all at once because we couldn't afford it. Quite simply. Yeah, we, you know, this house is a much. It's a bigger house than our last house. Like we really stretched ourselves to buy a bigger home. And so, you know, we didn't have the money left over to do all the renovation all at once. And then shortly after buying it, my, you know, career changed dramatically and I was building a business and, you know, I'm sure, you know, building a business and, you know, trying to build a home at the same time is really challenging. You've kind of got one pot of money and it's like, do I build and Grow the business the way that I want to, or do I kind of, you know, focus on the house? So it's just a juggling act, and we're. We're doing it slowly. Also, we wanted to live in this. In our previous house. We bought the house and also, you know, did that classic of, like, made sure there was enough money left over on the mortgage to do all the renovations all at once. So we lived in it for literally a matter of weeks and then tore the whole thing down and redid it in one go. And I think so many things then once we lived in it, in hindsight, we would have done differently because of the way we lived within the space and understanding, you know, the light in different rooms and understanding the way that you kind of the flow of the space and, you know, how you want to use certain rooms. So we wanted to live in it for a little bit anyway, to understand it properly and make sure we didn't make any rushed decisions. But also the realities of renovating a house all at once, we just didn't have the money.

[Matt Gibbard]

So this. This is currently the. The kind of.

[Henry Holland]

We're currently in the unrenovated bit.

[Matt Gibbard]

Unrenovated sitting room.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

With a bay. Victorian bay window.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

And then you're gonna. This is.

[Henry Holland]

Now this is gonna become the kitchen. And where I'm sat, the wall behind me is gonna be knocked out for an entrance down into a dining room room. And then the current kitchen, which is very small, is going to move into here.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Podcast Narrator]

Excuse the brief interruption. If you're interested in taking a look around Henry's house, the video tour is available to insiders on patreon. Head to patreon.com homingwithmat Back to the podcast.

[Matt Gibbard]

So you share it with your husband, David.

[Henry Holland]

I do.

[Matt Gibbard]

And your dog.

[Henry Holland]

And my dog, Larry.

[Matt Gibbard]

Larry. Larry the pug.

[Henry Holland]

Larry the pug, who's a new addition. Yeah. So, yeah, we've been here for about four years nearly now, but we've been in this area. So we're in Victoria park in East London, and we've been in this area now for, like, just over 10 years. So we love the area and love being close to the park.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, I was going to ask you about this because I'm really interested in this idea of, you know, where we belong geographically. So you're, you know, you're from the north.

[Henry Holland]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

As you say, you and a bunch of your friends have settled in London.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

If I was to ask you to, like, like, pick a. What, three words. Location.

[Henry Holland]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Anywhere on the planet. As to where you're from, like, where do you belong? Where is home geographically? What would you say?

[Henry Holland]

I would say in Victoria park in East London, for sure. I think that's where I've felt most at home. I lived in Camden for 12 years and sort of Chalk Farm, Primrose Hill, when the first. All the northerners just went to the northernmost part of London, just at the end of the ny, we didn't get very far, but it's fine. The Hawley Arms and Amy Winehouse were there, so it was cool. And then when we started to look to buy, there was just no way we could afford to live in that area. We spent a lot of time east because, you know, there's so much kind of nightlife and so many restaurants and kind of things happening in the East End, but we'd never lived here. But then when we found Victoria park, it was kind of the best of both worlds. You know, we had so much green space. I. I need to see a horizon at some point in my day. And the only real place you get to do that in London is in one of the parks and having that sense of space. And I always lived next to Primrose Hill and we always had that space. And again, you can see the horizon. And growing up where I grew up, it's actually really rural. It's close to Manchester, but it's really rural. And you're driving through these rolling hills and valleys, and it's really beautiful landscape. When I go back now and look at it, I can appreciate its beauty. At the time, it was constricting, and there was one bus an hour, and my friends were all 45 minutes away and I disliked it. But now when I go back, I appreciate its beauty and I appreciate those things. Like, I see those horizons and those kind of rolling hills, and I feel like I need that element of space in London. And we have that being in Victoria Park.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, that's great.

[Henry Holland]

There's a real sense of community and a real sense of, like, village. Like, there's a real. My husband grew up in a tiny village in the Lake District, and so he's kind of very much about city living. He never wants to live in the countryside. But here there's this real sense of, like, we know the landlord at the pub. I play tennis with the landlord. And, you know, we know other people in the village and we know the shopkeepers and we know, you know, it's got a real feeling that you're living in a village and you. And yet we can go into central London and well, used to be half an hour. It's about 50 minutes now.

[Matt Gibbard]

Routines and rituals. Oh yeah, tell me about those. What's a typical day?

[Henry Holland]

I see. I love change, as I said. But I also. I do actually really value routine and ritual. So my current ritual since getting the new puppy is I get up every morning and we given the time of year, year, and we walk around the park for sunrise. So we leave at seven and by the time I get back the sun's risen and it's a really amazing start to the day. And it really kind of sets me up. And it's when I start to think about what I've got on for the day. I start to. There's always the same point in the park where I check the bank. I don't know what it is, but there's something about like I sort of start to think about, okay, I've got to do that, got to do that. And I start thinking about like the sort of more businessy stuff when I hit a certain point in the park and I always find myself checking the bank balance on that part. It's weird, but like, you know, I take a big old mug of coffee and I sort of walk around the park. And it's sacred. There's something that's really sacred to me. Just that sort of first hour of the day. And I'm usually on my own. And then by the time I. And like David's then got the house to get himself ready for when I get back. And it's. That's a real ritual. I used to go to a gym in the city three days a week. And again that routine would get up really early, cycle into the city. But having a new puppy had to change when I go to the gym. Cause he takes precedent. But yeah, so rituals and routines. It's definitely that. And I always have a bath on a Sunday night, which my dad thinks is hilarious. He thinks I'm like an old washerwoman. Cause I have a Sunday night bath. Well, like Sunday night, shave and have a bath.

[Matt Gibbard]

Explain why you have a bath on a Sunday.

[Henry Holland]

I don't know. It's like a last moment of relaxation before my head gets into the week ahead. I suffer quite badly with Sunday scaries, for sure. Like that first. Like the first day back at work is coming. It's approaching. And so I think my bath is my last attempt to stave that off. For my school days, Sunday scaries were really intense because I'd have to change house. And then I'd finish off my homework, you know, all of that. And I was not a huge fan of school, so.

[Matt Gibbard]

So do you still go to the gym?

[Henry Holland]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Is that an important part of your week?

[Henry Holland]

It is, yeah. It's less structured at the moment just because I usually work. I've had a trainer for like five years and it would always be three times a week. So it was always very structured. So it's really unstructured at the moment. I have just put it on hold to prioritize dog training at the moment, but I will get back onto it.

[Matt Gibbard]

And in terms of your overall sort of self care, is there anything else that you do to just make sure that you're, you know, staying on the rails because you're obviously very, very busy. Right.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah. I was seeing a therapist for quite a while and that was really helpful and really useful. I think when my mom passed away, I just instantly got a therapist because I knew that that was something I was gonna need to. To deal with. And I wanted to do it properly and at the right time and not wake up in three years time thinking that I hadn't dealt with that loss and situation.

[Matt Gibbard]

When did that happen?

[Henry Holland]

That happened about four years ago.

[Matt Gibbard]

Was that out of the blue or.

[Henry Holland]

No, her breast cancer came back. She had secondary breast cancer, so we knew that she had that and that her diagnosis was terminal. But as I said earlier, her approach to medicine was incredibly helpful. And so she chose a completely holistic treatment path for herself and didn't have any western treatment. And she had five and a half years, which was completely blew away. You know, any predictions any of the doctors sort of had for her? Had she taken more conventional, you know, chemotherapy or radiotherapy routes?

[Matt Gibbard]

So that's amazing, isn't it? So she had a terminal diagnosis and then. Yeah, five and a half years.

[Henry Holland]

So bre. Bre. Secondary breast cancer by definition is terminal.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Because if it comes back, it is deemed as terminal. And her this time it came back in her chest wall and into her lungs, but still a breast cancer, if that makes sense, because. So they still treat it as a breast cancer even if it's gone to a different place. But it had metastasized and gone into her bones as well. But she lived a pretty normal life around her treatments for good. Three and a half, four years.

[Matt Gibbard]

So how do you look back on that time now where that must have been very hard for you?

[Henry Holland]

I try not to let myself think about this part too much, but frustrated and a bit angry that it was Covid and we weren't able to spend as much time together as we would have. So, so, like, sad about that part, but also just really grateful that we still had those additional years. Also really grateful that she got to see this new career path of mine. She was so much a part of my fashion career. And, you know, my fashion shows would. For weeks afterwards, people were like, oh, my God, I met your mum at the show. But 600 people would tell me that. And I'm like, how did she meet 600 people in the space of 19 minutes? Like, I don't get it. But she somehow. I think people gravitated towards her as much as she did to them knowing who she was. But she basically held court on my shows and would she be like, oh, and I met this person, this actress and this. This person. So she was. And she was like, also, like a real creative inspiration for me as well. And so losing her was really difficult. But she. She was around to see my ceramics business start.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

And I used, you know, she used to. I. She used to be on FaceTime for a couple of hours while I was making a vase in the evenings and we just chat and she'd be sort of watching what I was doing while I was doing it. So, yeah, like, you know, grief is like awful and losing a parent is shit, but you've kind of got to think. Think about it in a different way and just be grateful for having that time with us, that person, I guess.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah, my. My dad died probably. I think it's 2019, so a little bit longer ago. But it's interesting grief, isn't it? Because it does come at you, I find, in relatively abstract ways when you don't expect does.

[Henry Holland]

And I think that the grief doesn't get any less. It's just that life just gets bigger to the point that it kind of over. It surpasses the grief, if that makes sense. And so if you think about it, or you tap into that grief or if you know something happens to trigger a thought or like, if you miss that person or you wish that they were around to. For something, then it can become quite overwhelming again. But no, also, my mum was incredibly spiritual. She spoke to dead people all the time. Like, one of the last conversations we have was, which one of your psychic friends are we going to talk through once you've gone? Because so many of your friends do that. And so, you know, we agreed which sidekick we were going to communicate through if we needed to and things like that. So that's reassuring to me in many ways. And, you know, I feel her, her presence around me so much in everything that I do. You know, it's almost more so because her physical presence is gone. I know that she can be everywhere and she pretty much probably is.

[Matt Gibbard]

So that's really nice. So you said you've had some psychotherapy?

[Henry Holland]

I did.

[Matt Gibbard]

Was that helpful?

[Henry Holland]

It was really helpful, yeah. Just to kind of really make a point of exploring the feelings of grief and what I was going through and also looking back at, you know, therapists love to look back at your childhood, don't they?

[Matt Gibbard]

They do a bit, yeah.

[Henry Holland]

Explore why you think the way you think and maybe why you behave the way you behave. And I found it really, really useful. And I kind of, I tap in and out now. You know, if I'm going through something, I'll give her a shout and go back for a few months. But I kind of was doing it consistently for about two years. I just was intensely aware that this was probably one of the biggest things I was gonna have to deal with in my life. And I just wanted to make sure that I didn't wake up in three years time in rehab having suppressed it and not thought about it and, you know, drinking my way through it for two years or whatever.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's really great though, isn't it? Doing it proactively?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, yeah, I think it was definitely a good idea.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

For me. And I think having that lead up, knowing it was coming, you know, was not fun at all. But it allowed you to kind of process in your head certain, in a certain way, you know.

[Matt Gibbard]

So in terms of your mental health, because I know you've talked about it before and you're very open about it, which I think is really good, you know, if you have in a low moment or a difficult moment, how does it manifest itself for you? Is it anxiety? Is it feeling down, Is it insomnia? How does it.

[Henry Holland]

All of the above. All of the above. But at different times in my life, interestingly so when I was like 18, 19, 20, I struggled a lot with anxiety and I was just abs like in an abject panic about getting my life up and going, you know, and I was like desperate to be something when I wasn't yet. And I was working too much and I was going out too much and I was still at university and I was trying to do just too much and that just, I just had a complete sort of like, I don't know, nervous breakdown is the right term. But like, you know, my nerves were just shot and I just was suffering really badly with anxiety and Panic attacks. And it really struggled for a good many, maybe good year with anxiety attacks and couldn't get the tube anywhere and you know, couldn't really sort of be in busy spaces. And then that manifested with insomnia and then all you need when you're going through those kind of like anxiety moments is rest and then wasn't able to and et cetera. It's a self perpetuating cycle. But I learned to deal with that at the time. My mum sent me tipnotherapy therapy and that really incredibly helpful.

[Matt Gibbard]

Oh really?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah. Specifically for anxiety. It, it really worked.

[Matt Gibbard]

What did you do then, out of interest?

[Henry Holland]

So through hypnotherapy I was taught how to make myself have a panic attack. And then in turn that told me that I was the one doing it to myself. And when you know you're the one causing the panic attack, it's really easy to be like, well you, you doing. Stop it. You know. Whereas I think when people first experience an anxiety attack, you think you're dying, you think for the, for the first time anyway, you're like, you've no idea what's happening. You think you're having a heart attack, you think you're about to collapse and die at any moment. And then through the hypnotherapy I was taught that it was my own mind making that all of those physical manifestations happen, physical symptoms happen. And so in turn that told my mind that I would, that was also the process to turn it off, to stop it. And so I found that really useful and I've not really suffered with them since.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's so interesting.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, so I did that when I was about 19, 20 I think. And then other areas I think were like, you know, my creativity is very much intertwined with fun. My, my, my focus, my, my ability to like concentrate and focus is so motivated by fun. Remember my mum having an argument with the math teacher because he was like, he just doesn't concentrate and he just doesn't focus. And she instantly, she instantly replied, was like, well, are you making it fun? And he was like, maths isn't fun. And she went, well, there's your problem.

[Matt Gibbard]

She's so right.

[Henry Holland]

She was like, like, I'm really sorry but if he's not enjoying himself, you've got no chance.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Henry Holland]

So. And then later I got this new maths teacher and he made it so fun and I did extra maths, I did additional after school maths because it was so much fun. So she was spot on really. And My, you know, my fashion brand was all about fun. It was about playfulness and personality and color and character and you know, parties and it was all built around fun. So when, you know, I'd had, In my early 20s, I had like a breakup on my first heartbreak or whatever and I was really not having fun and I was miserable and I found it so hard to be creative. So you know, I always joke, you know, all these musicians that get heartbroken and write a best selling album about it, that's not for me. I could not be that person. You know, the creativity does not come from the heartbreak at all. So when I lost my mom, I was, was working with my ceramics. I actually found the creativity to be really therapeutic for that kind of pain. So I guess different pain, different outlet. Again, back to my astrology thing. But Geminis, they're often seen as having this split personality. But in reality we're often very high in terms of very happy and loud and outgoing or the exact like really quite low. Like those are often the duality within, within that star sign rather than just being two faced, which is what people.

[Matt Gibbard]

So when you're in the quiet time, does that mean that you. Do you spend more time at home? Are you hunkering down a bit more?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah, I'd say so. Don't really want to see people. Don't really answer my messages. Kind of like avoid my phone. But with ceramics being such a, like a solo like sort of outlet, it's actually something that again I quite enjoy doing in those moments. Go to the studios on the weekend and spend time with myself and make

[Matt Gibbard]

some stuff because I thought people might be quite surprised by that because you. Well obviously, you know, we've talked about the more gregarious side of you, the person that's happy to be photographed.

[Henry Holland]

Well, I'm not getting photographed when I'm miserable, am I? So I'm at home avoiding my phone.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Yeah, well, exactly.

[Henry Holland]

Not doing a podcast. No, I think and to be honest, it's rare that I'm really lucky. I'm not often in those moments and I've found and figured out ways to draw myself out of them much quicker. But every now and again, yeah, I'll have moments where I'm feeling and quite often it will be like I'm feeling disappointed in something that's not happened or it'll just be out of nowhere. I'll just feel I'll be just really tired and run down. It'll come from there.

[Matt Gibbard]

But

[Henry Holland]

I've sort of developed different ways of kind of drawing myself out of those. And I'll spend a lot more time with really close friends as well, is another good one. You know, if you're starting to feel a bit like isolated and like feeling down, the worst thing to actually do is isolate. So then I usually kind of like make a plan to go and spend some time with some close chosen family and do something nice that will, you know, warm my heart up or something, or I'll go and make some pots. That's actually a really good way for me to get myself out of a funk is to feel productive. So often if I just go in on a Sunday and do a round of production and make 20 plates, I'll feel so much better about myself. Cause I'll feel productive.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. I was thinking about this yesterday. This term outsider energy came to me. And what I mean by that is that so many of the people that come on this podcast felt outside in some way when they were growing up.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Like they were. I mean, you described being bullied, but, you know, somehow adjacent. Right?

[Henry Holland]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

And with that often comes this energy. And it seems to me you're sort of fizzing with this energy and you're describing that you have to create and you have to kind of get this energy out somehow.

[Henry Holland]

I think it does stem from that period of my childhood and being bullied and being kind of the outsider and just constantly wanting to be in with the crowd of people that you wanted to be in and wanted to sort of be that person that you were not being allowed to be, maybe. And that manifests itself in so many different ways. And I mean, I definitely have an element of imposter complex as well. And that's something I've done to myself. Right. By entering into spher, where I have no, you know, qualification, I guess, fashion and ceramics really, but self taught in both fields. But something that I've learned to not allow in much more as I've got older, for sure. Because I think we're all imposters. No one knows really what they're doing, are they?

[Matt Gibbard]

No, I think that's exactly right.

[Henry Holland]

Yeah. And I think, you know, these are things you learn with maturity. But. But you know, when someone tells you you're an outsider, when you're young and impressionable, you believe them.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

And then when they tell you when you're a bit older and you've got some more life experience, then you don't really have to listen to them as much.

[Matt Gibbard]

But it's something about formal training, isn't it?

[Podcast Narrator]

You think if you haven't been through

[Matt Gibbard]

that formal training, then you don't deserve to be there somehow.

[Henry Holland]

And I think the way that I've sort of rectified it in my own mind really, is that I have. Have like, just this intense respect and admiration for anyone who are in these fields that have done that. And. And I just love kind of watching them and learning from them and that. And like, actually my. My best way of kind of working is when I'm learning new things. Ignorance is such bliss in that, in. Especially when building a company, because no one's ever told you how to do something, but they've also never told you how not to do something. So you're not kind of conflicted with these ideas of like, oh, you can't do it like that, because that's not how you should do it. So you tend to kind of build structures and processes and ways of doing things that are just the most efficient way for you to do them. And if it goes tits up, it goes tits up. You just don't do it again. You just, you know, and you keep growing from each of those learnings. Right. And you're never going to learn as much in a training environment as you are by doing something.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah. You gotta get out of your own way sometimes. Yeah.

[Henry Holland]

And I think that I haven't placed any of those restrictions on myself because I've been like, well, no one's ever told me how to. Let's just go figure it out.

[Matt Gibbard]

But also, you know, another previous guest on this podcast, John Paulson, who's one of you know, the great modern architects that this country has produced, is not actually a qualified architect. So there's a great example.

[Henry Holland]

Well, that's another. My other. One of my other other ways of thinking as well is that actually when you are not from a trained way of thinking, you can approach certain things, certain fields from a slightly different point of view, which makes something new and exciting and create something that wouldn't necessarily have been created by someone that had been taught a more traditional route. And I think that's probably a perfect example of that. Probably doesn't have. Have the same reference points because, you know, he's kind of leaning into more of his own way of thinking and not a way of thinking that was taught.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. The final question.

[Henry Holland]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Which is the. The one that I nearly always ask, which is this word. Home.

[Henry Holland]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

What does that word mean to you? How would you define it?

[Henry Holland]

Wow, that is a big question. I think home for me is really. Who's there? Home for me right now is with my husband and my dog, and that can be anywhere. I think that's maybe that's, you know, down to my upbringing and having multiple homes and kind of switching homes quite often. But home for me really is who I'm with and who's in it with me.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Henry Holland]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Matt Gibbard]

Brilliant.

[Henry Holland]

Thanks.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thanks very much for listening, folks. A reminder that you can watch behind the scenes house tours with our guests, including Henry Holland on Patreon. You can also watch the video version of each podcast on our YouTube channel and keep up to date with what we're doing over on Instagram. The handle for all of those platforms is omingwithmatt. This episode was produced by Pod Shop with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again and talk to you next week.

[Matt Gibbard]

Bye for now.