James Lohan: the co-founder of Mr & Mrs Smith on how his first experience of home shaped an obsession with boutique hotels

Summary

Homing In: Episode Summary – James Lorne on How His Early Home Experience Shaped His Obsession with Boutique Hotels

Released on May 24, 2024

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Homing In, host Matt Gibbard delves deep into the life and inspirations of James Lorne, co-founder of the acclaimed travel company Mr & Mrs. Smith. Together with his wife, Tamara, James has revolutionized the boutique hotel industry, curating a collection of unique and memorable accommodations around the world. This episode explores James's formative experiences, entrepreneurial journey, and his profound insights into what makes a home—or a hotel—truly special.

Early Entrepreneurial Spirit

James begins by recounting his early ventures into entrepreneurship, highlighting his innate drive to create and innovate. From selling cheese toasties at school to establishing a mobile disco named "Your Mother Wouldn't Like It", James demonstrated a knack for business from a young age.

"I went to my dad and I was nervous about it, but I said to him, I said, look, dad, I think I'm gonna go off and do this on my own now" [00:08]

At just 21, James had already earned substantial income through his ventures, showcasing his early commitment to independence and business acumen.

Influence of His Father and Early Home Life

A significant portion of the conversation centers around James's relationship with his father and how it profoundly influenced his outlook on home and hospitality. Growing up with divorced parents, James spent time living in his father's Victorian house in Wandsworth, London—a residence that, despite its initial state of disrepair, became a hub of creativity and warmth.

"He was very creative as well. And I think that's where I get maybe some of my creativity" [04:17]

James fondly describes his father's ability to create a welcoming atmosphere with thoughtful lighting, music, and unique design elements like the "Greek chapel," a conservatory adorned with candles and grapevines.

Transition to Entrepreneurship

After experiencing the structured environment of boarding school and a brief stint in the fashion industry, James faced a pivotal moment during the early 90s recession when his first employer went bankrupt. Encouraged by his father, he transitioned into public relations, where he honed essential skills in selling and event organizing.

"PR is essentially selling. Every job needs... you've got to learn how to sell" [09:23]

This foundation in PR laid the groundwork for his future endeavors, including the creation of Mr & Mrs. Smith.

Founding Mr & Mrs. Smith

The genesis of Mr & Mrs. Smith stemmed from James's desire to curate and promote boutique hotels that offered unique experiences beyond the conventional five-star establishments. Partnering with his wife Tamara, James sought to highlight hotels that provided a distinct atmosphere, personalized service, and authentic local experiences.

"We totally reinvented the way people put a collection of hotels rather than chains of hotels which people talked about" [22:17]

Their approach involved sending couples to stay at these hotels anonymously, ensuring impartial reviews that focused on the guest experience rather than superficial metrics. This strategy not only built credibility but also fostered a community of over a million members worldwide who trusted their recommendations.

Experiences and Insights from Boutique Hotels

Throughout the episode, James shares anecdotes from his extensive travels and hotel stays, emphasizing the elements that elevate a hotel's appeal. He highlights the importance of design, local relevance, and the ability to adapt spaces for different purposes—such as transforming a breakfast area for dinner gatherings.

"Where you have breakfast in a hotel can also be where you have Dinner. So how does that change..." [45:06]

James also critiques common pitfalls in the hotel industry, such as poor signage and lackluster initial impressions, underscoring how these can set the tone for a guest's entire stay.

Current Living Situation and Personal Reflections

James and Tamara currently reside near Gunnersbury Park in London, enjoying the blend of urban life with immediate access to expansive green spaces. This living arrangement reflects James's appreciation for both the comforts of home and the inspiring environments of the parks.

"We live on Gunnersbury Park, which is one of these parks... the mixture now of being in London, but being able to go out and have this literally countryside on my back garden is extraordinary" [40:43]

He shares his passion for design within his home, inspired by his extensive hotel experiences, yet emphasizes the importance of creating a cozy and restorative personal space.

Lessons from Hotels for Domestic Living

James offers valuable insights into how principles from boutique hotels can enhance domestic living spaces. He advocates for zoning areas to serve different functions, prioritizing comfort and atmosphere over mere aesthetics, and ensuring each space reflects the inhabitants' personalities and needs.

"It's about the coziness of your home... creating a place where nothing has to be as perfect as it does... a place where you relax and it's where you hang out and it's where you get away from it" [43:52]

Business Philosophy and Future Plans

Reflecting on his journey, James underscores the importance of passion and understanding one's audience in business success. He credits his resilience and adaptability—honed from his early life experiences—for navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship.

"Resilience is, I would say, the number one thing that I have and Tamara has" [63:35]

Looking ahead, James expresses a desire to continue evolving Mr & Mrs. Smith while also contemplating personal projects, such as potentially living on a boat or exploring new ventures that align with his love for unique environments.

"I've always had a go at everything I've wanted to do... nothing I haven't tried that I've wanted to do" [64:09]

Personal Reflections on Childhood and Resilience

James opens up about the impact of his early life—particularly his parents' divorce and his experiences in boarding school—on his resilience and independence. These formative years instilled in him a strong sense of self-reliance and adaptability, traits that have been instrumental in his entrepreneurial success.

"I'm very thankful for the tough love lessons that I got... build that resilience so that they can go off and realize their own dreams" [61:35]

Conclusion

James Lorne's journey from a young entrepreneur in Chichester to a pivotal figure in the boutique hotel industry is a testament to the enduring influence of early home experiences and personal resilience. Through Mr & Mrs. Smith, he has redefined how travelers discover and experience unique accommodations, blending passion with practicality to create memorable stays worldwide. This episode offers listeners a rich tapestry of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and heartfelt reflections, painting a comprehensive picture of what home—and hospitality—truly mean to James.

Notable Quotes:

• "Resilience is, I would say, the number one thing that I have and Tamara has." [63:35]
• "It's about the coziness of your home... creating a place where nothing has to be as perfect as it does." [43:52]
• "I've always had a go at everything I've wanted to do... nothing I haven't tried that I've wanted to do." [64:09]

Final Thoughts

James's story underscores the intricate relationship between one's upbringing, personal challenges, and professional achievements. His ability to translate life's lessons into business success provides invaluable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs and anyone interested in the art of creating meaningful living spaces.

Transcript

[James Lorne]

And then I was doing these other gigs and then before you knew it, I was earning like a lot of money for a 21 year old or whatever I was by then. So I went to my dad and I was nervous about it, but I said to him, I said, look, dad, I think I'm gonna go off and do this on my own now. He was like, great, when are you leaving? I was like, oh, I don't want to leave you in the ship. Give me a few months notice. You go when you want. I was thinking, oh, okay, you don't want me. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go in a. He said, fine, yeah, great. Anyway, let me know. And I remember it. It was a really odd moment or a powerful strange moment where I was looking for maybe a bit of fatherly advice going, maybe slow down a bit. Maybe you try and learn a bit more before you go off and do this on your own. He was like, no, go for it. And I didn't want to show any weakness or whatever, so I went, yeah, okay, I'll go. And I ran my first business, which was called your Mother wouldn't like it mobile discotheque from my bedroom. And yeah, it was a moment.

[Matt Gibbard]

Hello, welcome to another episode of the Homing Ed podcast. I'm Matt Gibbard, co founder of the Modern House. This is the first time we've recorded an episode in a hotel suite. And that's because today's guest knows more about opening doors to glamorous guest houses than pretty much anyone else. James Lorne co founded the travel company Mr. And Mrs. Smith with his wife Tamara back in 2003, and since then he's visited nearly 4,000 hotels in the name of research. James is a gregarious character with some brilliant tales to tell. We discuss his earliest experiences as an entrepreneur, from selling cheese toasties at school to setting up a mobile disco called you'd Mother wouldn't like it. He tells me about his refurbishment of a Dutch barge on the Thames, complete with flock wallpaper and a freestanding bath, and what he's learned from hotels that we might apply to our homes. Now, if you're enjoying homing in and you haven't yet given us a rating or a review, we would love it if you could spare a quick second to do that. Reviews really are the thing that help podcasts to grow, and in our case, a bigger audience means even better guests, more wise words and compelling life stories. Thank you so much for being here and on with the podcast. Hope you enjoy it.

[Unknown]

So I Want to start with your home from the past that you've chosen, which is your late father's house in Wandsworth?

[James Lorne]

Yep.

[Unknown]

Why have you picked that? Tell us about what it was like.

[James Lorne]

It's a good question. So I picked that one because I have really fond memories of that house. And my parents were divorced, so I used to live in a very humble sort of semi detached in Chichester, down in West Sussex with my mum. And my dad had a slightly more glamorous lifestyle up in London. So I used to go visit him there. And he bought this very run down, three story Victorian house. But it was on Wandsworth Common. This was back in the mid-80s and this was not a glamorous place back then. It was near Wandsworth Prison, Bellevue Road, which is very lovely now and full of bougie shops and what have you and wine bars. So it was not the Wandsworth Common, I guess today is. And I think he bought it for £100,000. Ridiculous. Long time ago. I always remember he was very good. We weren't on the same page stylistically, I would say, but he was very good at creating a great atmosphere. So everything was very comfortable. Lots of lovely lighting where you felt warmed and closeted. It had that nice atmosphere about it. He always had music on again. We had slightly different musical tastes. I would say maybe a bit too much Bruce Springsteen or Kenny G or something dreadful coming. Oh, my God. Yeah, I remember that. But he built this atmosphere there. And everyone loves, I think, an open plan kitchen and dining room. And that's where we used to hang out. And I used to. I lived with him for a while actually, when I was 18, when I first came up to London to do my first job. And I remember him having these wonderful long sort of Sunday boozy lunches with all his. How can I put it politely? Very colorful friends. They were a real bunch of interesting folks because I think they were divorced. He never grew up as my father. We grew up as mates, really.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[James Lorne]

And so we always had that sort of relationship and he had. And he was very creative as well. And I think that's where I get maybe some of my creativity. And he had this conservatory literally adjacent to the open plan kitchen and dining room where we used to go and smoke whatever it was, we were smoking cigars or whatever. And he had this little fountain inside, I remember, with a sort of a lion's head and lots of candles everywhere, all built into the walls and grapevines from the ceiling. And he called it the Greek chapel, which I loved. So he had this nice little turns of phrases with things. He was very house proud and he was very good at making people feel welcome. He was an amazing host. I think that's what I remember the most from those sort of days. And what stuck with me, I think with hopefully with my own home and my own style.

[Unknown]

I really like that because a lot of people talk about homes, certainly on this podcast as well, from a purely design perspective. But actually what you've talked about there is things like the way it smelled and the memories that you made in there and the smell of the cigar or whatever. And that's exactly what a home is in the end, isn't it? Do you have any particular memories that you can tell us about from that time? How did you feel within that home? Was it a comfortable place for you?

[James Lorne]

I have mixed views on it because I think when I was visiting as his son in the holidays, it was always just fun all the time. We'd be going off and he definitely showed me London. So we'd be going to some interesting, quite glamorous places. He used to own a PR agency so he was very plugged into sort of, yeah, entertaining people, let's say we would always be going off to places. And I think as I got older he also tried to almost teach me, this is great for a date night, James. You should take someone here. I remember him taking me to Blake's hotel, which is one of my favorite hotels. I remember going down into the basement and he said, look, this is what you do. You come in here and you go for a drink at the bar. You don't eat here because it's too expensive. But what was interesting was these places that he took me, whether they were for expensive experiences, I was picking up on the actual, the design of them. And I've always been into the design of things. And actually I remember my bedroom back at my home in, in Chichester. I was always redesigning or moving things around, which is odd for, I think as a 10 year old boy or whatever, or I'd say to my mum, I remember, I want to paint the whole ceiling red and I want a red lip around it because I used to support Liverpool. So when I came up to be with my father and I was in his house and we were having conversations and he also with his PR company, he used to run a lot of events. So he was always designing things and he would share those things with me. And so the way you create a room or the way you create an event or a hotel, obviously, which is where I ended up having been through bars and restaurants and nightclubs before. That all came from, I think, the way he showed me things and took me out and about. I had really great memories of being there when I was visiting. When I lived there, it wasn't quite so cozy. And I remember I got my first job when I was 18 and I went to move up there and I got my first paycheck and he charged me 200 quid to stay there for the month. I was like, are you kidding? He said, yeah, it's 50 quid a week. I'm like, what? Really? I'm only getting 600. He said, yeah, but if ever you're going to move out of here, you're going to pay rent to someone, so you need to start learning now. And I left there, actually, I think after about seven or eight months, I'm like, subway. There's no way I'm paying you rent to live here. And I moved so quickly. He was absolutely right, though. I mean, he got me. He made me independent almost immediately and because I really begrudged giving him money because I felt like this is my home. But now suddenly we're in this sort of financial contract arrangement. So I remember I moved in with a mate and we shared a room in some house with 10 other people in Parsons Green because I just had to get out of there. So weirdly, really lovely when I was starting there, lived there, wanted to get out and then came back when obviously I moved out and had many fantastic stay or dinner or lunch or whatever with him. So, yeah, it was definitely a big influence on me.

[Unknown]

He sounds like a character.

[James Lorne]

He really was.

[Unknown]

Did he give you business advice as well?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, this was also interesting. So I didn't go to university. I actually left school after O levels. I did a year of showing your age there. Yeah, I know. Thank you. I'm 52 and a half for all your listeners. So I literally did my O levels and then wanted to leave. They're like, no, you've got to do your A levels. I got through the first year. When I can't do this, I hate it. And I want to go to art college, I want to be a fashion designer. And in fairness to my mum and dad, particularly my dad, because he was obviously the slightly stricter one from afar, I think he said, if you want to go to art college, then you better work your ass off and get there quickly. So I did that and I managed to get onto a foundation course a year early. All I did literally gave up everything for a term and I just did art and sport, the only things I loved. And I had a brilliant art teacher who used to allow me because I was at boarding school in those days, and he used to drop me off by a river or whatever with a pack of fags and a couple of beers because he was cool. And I used to draw all day or paint all day, and I loved it anyways, and I got this tip to get into art college. It's actually not about how talented you are because I'm not that talented. It certainly wasn't when I got there. But actually showing how much passion you've got for it and the will for it. And I heard this brilliant story of one hopeful student turning up with a wheelbarrow full of sketchbooks and they just went, you're in. I don't even need to look at it, you're just in because I know you really want to do this. So I did tons of books and I was proud of some of them. They never bloody looked at half the stuff I did. And I was like pointing out in the interview, please look at that one. But I managed to get in and I got into it and I did this foundation course and then I realized, actually, I'm not very good at art compared to the rest of the world. I'm not going to try and pursue art now, I'm going to go out to work, I want to go and earn money. And actually, I was a bit entrepreneurial at school as well. So I had a few little small businesses at boarding school because we were all in prison, essentially. And so you invent things to do or to make a bit more money.

[Unknown]

I was going to say, were you the guy doing the homebrew?

[James Lorne]

So I had a few businesses, but one was quite amusing. The food was crap, always was, in the schools and my dad, stupidly, who was paying the bills, didn't put a limit on my tuck shop bill. And so I was looking at these sort of starving students and I bought three Breville toasted sandwich makers and at lunchtime I would just do cheese and ham toasties at a quid each. And I was canier. I did £3,000 on my tuck shop bills and my dad went batshit. Half of him was like, what the fuck have you done? And the other half was quite proud that I created this business, which was some fantastic margins because I wasn't paying for the stock. So anyway, we ended up paying back his bill. I did anyway, and we split the profits. I thought that was fair at the end. So it was a Good little lesson. And then another one, a terrible show. My age, there was this real trend for having very short back and sides but as much hair on top as possible. And the school, because it was a strict boarding school, banned anyone having anything lower than grade four. So I bought a pair of hair clippers out of one of my mums. You used to get those catalog magazines, used to get back in those days for selling you everything. And I bought these clippers. I thought, okay, once the boys have gone to the barbers, they can come to me. I don't know how to cut hair, but I can go over it in a grade one or two or three, whatever they want, because they wanted that kind of look. So I was basically creating skinheads in this school, charging with fiber every haircut. And then slowly but surely, the boys, because everyone got to know I was doing this. And everyone. You could see them in assembly, everyone's hair was looking shorter and shorter and the teacher's like, what the hell's going on? So anyway, so we got shut down. I think they found my clippers and then took them and banned me. So, yes, we had a few things like that. I was always trying to make a few quid.

[Unknown]

Why do you think? Why were you doing that?

[James Lorne]

I don't know. Why? I wanted to earn money to buy more things.

[Unknown]

Like what?

[James Lorne]

I don't know. It's an interesting one. Just talking about my dad and being relatively successful and having a nice house eventually. But my mum, she was not wealthy at all. We lived very humbly. We never went on holiday at all. And so then I used to come up to London and see a snapshot of this glamorous life that my dad seemed to have with his PR agency. But in those days as well, you were running everything through your company. Expenses were your company, so God knows what he was doing and how he was hustling here and there, I don't know. But I had this sense that my mum was always having financial problems. So I don't think maybe the deal between them was perfect. And I never wanted to feel like I didn't have any money for some reason. And so that's what I think drove me to start to want to earn money. And then seeing it through my dad's visits made me even more hungry to want to have a life that looked really fun and glamorous, if I'm honest.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Did your mum work or not?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, she did. She was. She spent most of time bringing my sister and I upgraded and then she worked in a primary school but her parents never, I think, influenced her in any way, shape or form, particularly that side of the family were a very old school family. They weren't as entrepreneurial as maybe the other side, my father's side of the family. So I guess I've been very lucky that I had a very nurturing mother and a very inspirational, slightly crazy dad. And I think that mix, hating school really and wanting to get out and make my own way got me into going out and earning my first job when I was 18.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's very interesting.

[James Lorne]

Why?

[Unknown]

It's very common, isn't it, for entrepreneurs not to have done particularly well at school?

[James Lorne]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Unknown]

How did. What's your reading of that?

[James Lorne]

I don't know, it's a strange one. There's something about it where again, boarding school. I really don't love boarding schools but I do think they give you a real independency, there's no doubt because it's tough sometimes and you get to learn to live with. I went to boarding school when I was nine, I think so really young. And I remember thinking this isn't right and I don't particularly like this, but it makes you tough, it really does. And I think that mix of being slightly the class clown is very cliched, but I was. Because I just didn't enjoy lessons. And I think lessons I did enjoy were down to the teacher partly. But also anything that didn't feel so formulaic or I couldn't even work out why I was doing or learning half these things. So I used to daydream and think about things that seem more fun to me and that would be weirdly. Or not thinking up maybe businesses to see if I can make some money. How am I going to get out of this place? What am I going to do? I don't want to be in education, that kind of thing.

[Unknown]

Okay, so where did that lead you? What was the first thing.

[James Lorne]

So I did fashion for about. Got a great little job actually as a merchandiser and part designer in a small little men's label called Brooklyn that used to supply things like necks for men and principals and things like that. But it was a great first job. Then I think it was the early 90s and the big recession came in. The whole company went bankrupt because it was part of a much bigger business. And then I was like, oh Jesus, what am I going to do? Because I don't think I want to do fashion. I know I don't. And now I've got no exams, no qualifications and so my career's advice, my father was like, I'm going to be an estate agent. Are you going to come and work for me? And then I said, okay, I'll work for you, dad, begrudgingly. And I really didn't want to do that. I think it was a pride in me that felt like it was a handout and I felt it was a leg up that was unfair. I didn't like it to start with, but annoyingly, and thankfully it was the right thing. Because the thing about pr, again, it's a bit like that's your other option. If you haven't got any exams, you can go into pr. If you're good at talking and you're good at hosting and you can write a press release eventually, then you can probably manage to be in pr. That's what it was like in those days. But what it did teach me, and I think this is really important for any job, it taught me to sell, okay? And PR is essentially selling. Every job needs. You have to be able to sell whatever you're doing, actually have it in your job. Of course, there are many different ways of selling, but you've got to learn how to sell. And so I think I learned through writing, through copy. So I was doing copywriting essentially in my own way for various clients. And I learned also to do event organizing, which I was naturally quite good at. And what we used to do is we'd create something like the Teacher of the Year Awards, presented by Prima magazine, sponsored by the Encyclopedia Britannica. So that's how we do it. We go and find regional winners, whoever's the best teacher in whichever TV region it was in East Anglia or wherever it might be. Then we bring them all to London for a gala lunch with some sort of C list celebrity at Claridge's. And we give them this amazing day out and then there'll be more PR from that. So it was all about creating local regional pr and then it was about getting, getting the PR and Prima and then the national magazines and all these things. I learned how to organize some big things. I did thousand people awards at the Great Room at the Grosvenor House or the Lancaster Room at the Savoy. So we were doing some big events, big budget events and I learned all this. So I learned how to sell, I learned how to run events and I'm talking, I knew everything about lighting, sound, auto cue. I would know how to run a 100 grand event, happily. So I was learning lots of stuff that I wasn't necessarily loving all the time, but I Didn't realize how much I was learning to be able to go off and do it myself. And then I had this moment where I wanted to be a radio presenter. That was my new dream. And the way to get into radio, in case you're ever interested, is, or used to be, is hospital radio. So you go and try and get a slot on hospital radio, which is actually really difficult. There's literally hundreds of applicants and there was two slots at Charing Cross Hospital Radio going, and I really wanted to get this slot. I did all these things and created these shows and did all this stuff and went in and did a trial and I ended up getting my own show every Thursday at this thing. So I got one of the slots and it was a proper studio with big record collection, jingles, everything, like you were in a mini capital radio. I wanted to be Chris Darrant in those days. That was my dream. And so I used to do this show every week and that was fun and I really got into it. But the bit that changed my life, I think, was one of my good friend's sister was getting married and she needed a DJ for her wedding and I said, I could do that for you. And Charing Cross Hospital Radio had an antiquated mobile disco and you could hire off them for 50 quid, which they give to charity, and you can charge it on for whatever you want. So I said to her, I'll come and do it for you for 100 quid, and then end up DJing the whole party, the whole night and loving it. Oh, my God, this is what I should be doing. This is brilliant. So did that and then I went off and got a loan for five grand from Barclays to buy myself my own mobile disco. So I had my PR job during the week and then I went off and doing weddings and bar mitzvahs and birthdays and whatever it was at the weekend. And I started to earn more money doing that than I was what my dad was paying me. So I thought, I'm going to go off and do this full time. And then there was another lucky moment for me where there was this really dodgy club, not very collaborative at all, and there's this Friday night there, and the whole system broke down and I went up to the owner or the promoter and said, I've got one literally round the corner, I can go and get it, pick it up, come back, set it up and I'll DJ for you tonight. Save your night because there's 500 people in here.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[James Lorne]

Paying for your blood he went, go. So I went with some mates, got back, got home, got it in there, set it up like it's my new one, was not like the Charing Cross one. I could have it set up in minutes almost. I was getting quite good at it by then, set it all up. DJ the whole night, did really well. The guy was like, this is brilliant. Can you do this for me every Friday? And I was like, of course I can. I'll pay you 500 quid. I'm like, great. And then I was doing these other gigs and then before you knew it, I was earning like a lot of money for a 21 year old or whatever I was by then. So I went to my dad and I was nervous about it, but I said to him, I said, look, dad, I think I'm gonna go off and do this on my own now. He was like, great, when are you leaving? I said, oh, I don't leave you in the shit. I'll give you a few months notice, you go when you want. I was thinking, oh, okay, you don't want me. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go in a month. Something. He said, fine, yeah, great. Anyway, let me know. And I remember it, it was a really odd moment or a powerful, strange moment where I was looking for maybe a bit of fatherly advice going, maybe slow down a bit. Maybe you try and learn a bit more before you go off and do this on your own. He was like, no, go for it. And I don't want to show any weakness or whatever. So I went, yeah, okay, I'll go. And I ran my first business, which was called your Mother Wouldn't like it mobile discotheque from my bedroom. And yeah, it was a moment. And I ended up then promoting three or four different nightclubs a week around London, around Fulham and Chelsea. It's fine when you're young, but when you get older, you really don't want to be promoting nightclubs and tj. It's exhausting.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Lorne]

So I then set up a company called Atomic Events. And that was because people started to come to these clubs that I was doing and saying, oh, could you do our Christmas party or whatever as a company? And I was like, yeah, of course we can. And so I set up a specific one to do corporate events and that was the next thing. So Atomic turn into quite a big sort of events company, if you like. And that's when I started to have partners because I knew what I wasn't good at and I wanted someone to help more with the Business side, the financial planning of the business. I wasn't good at those things. I was good at sales, I was good at making things happen. I was good at organizing stuff, but I was pretty crappy at spreadsheets and stuff. I think that's when I started to learn my limitations. And I had a partner then who complimented all of that. And then we went on to buy a bar, restaurant and club called the White House in Clapham. It was the first member's bar south of the river many years ago back. And I want to say about 2,000 somewhere around there. And my nightclubbing thing was coming to an end by then as well. I was bored of DJing all over the country. And that's when I had the club still going, but starting to go. I think I'm done with this. And then everything started to implode. It just wasn't all working. We lost some big clients with the events. I think it was just. I wasn't happy about it. I wasn't enjoying it and. And I'd had enough of it. I didn't want to be in my bar and restaurant five nights a week, six nights. Exhausting. And my fascination became hotels.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[James Lorne]

That's when the start of Smithson started here.

[Unknown]

So why did it become your fascination? Because it must be. You met Tamara, right? Your wife?

[James Lorne]

Yep.

[Unknown]

Like any young man, you wanted to take her away for the weekend.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I remember one Christmas, Must have been 2003, I reckon. My cousin gave me a book.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it had Mr. And Mrs. Smith on the COVID And it was one of the best books I've ever had for inspiration. It was a. It for me. It was aspirational. I probably couldn't afford to stay in most of those places, but I really lusted after them.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And that was your book. Yeah, that. That was the genesis of the company, wasn't it wasn't a website, it was a book.

[James Lorne]

It absolutely was. It was hotel pawn, as we used to call it in those days. But it was really about for me. I've always had businesses that I understood from my peers. So whether I was running nightclubs when I was super young or members clubs when I got a bit older. I think that it's really important as an entrepreneur to understand your audience instinctively. And I think also you want to be passionate about what you're doing, otherwise you can't make a business work, in my opinion. You talk about working on marriages, but your businesses and marriages as well, in my mind. And you've really got to be in love with it to get through the tough times because there will be inevitably some very difficult times. And for me, unless I was working on something that I was genuinely passionate about, it would never work. So the money was always secondary to me. Hopefully we make some money along the way. But it was more about is this idea going to get me out of bed every morning. And I remember there was Babington House open, I think just before we did our first book and everyone in London was talking about this place and everybody wanted to go there. It was almost like a. It was a kind of myth and legend going around that, yeah, they converted the cow shed where they used to milk all the cows into this amazing spa and there's an indoor and outdoor pool that you can swim between. And it was things like that which weren't even thought about in those days. And Ilse Crawford, I think designed it back then with Nick and because I think his idea versus her idea was slightly different. So it was good that she got on board, she helped him design not just the place but the experience, I believe to be something extraordinary. Where you've got to remember in those days it was all very formal, the five star hotels, very country house, very chintzy, very Michelin driven. And then Babington House kind of came like, oh my God, this is something different. And I remember had a pizzeria sort of little restaurant where if you came down from London, you were late and tired, you didn't want to go to a formal Michelin star restaurant, you just go and you could go in your flip flops if you wanted and go have a pizza and just have a beer or a cocktail, whatever you wanted. And then maybe on the Saturday night where they had another restaurant, you'd have something for the special occasion because inevitably it's bound to be a birthday or an anniversary or something. And so this combination of do what you like, wear what you like, eat what you like. Wow. By the sort of spa and the swimming and the humor with the cow shed, all these things were big things at influences. And so I thought there's got to be other places out there that are interesting. Thank God they were. But no one knew about them because they were tiny little independent places. And I was also at the same time trying to impress Tam, as you said, we were dating back in those days and the only reference points were a lot of brochures through the post from various representation companies, let's say, that were a little bit old fashioned where they'd had the picture of the grand manor with the maitre D on the gravel driveway, proudly pointing back to them in the picture. And you wouldn't be able to see anything inside. You couldn't tell. It looked like an OAP home when you got there and smelt a bit funny. And you had no idea about the experience because all they talked about was, where's the local golf course? And there's a rock formation you can walk to on top of a hill, like three days away. And it's really disappointing when you get there. It was like, terrible. It's, oh, my God, these are like the worst guides ever. And then also we were starting to, at that point, looking for spa hotels. And I remember I booked this spa, at least I thought it was a spa hotel to take Town away. And we got there and I'm like, oh, Jesus, this doesn't look quite luxury. And like how I imagined it. And everyone looked very formal. It looked more like a hospital almost. I was like, what the bloody hell are my books? Because I didn't concentrate. Obviously there wasn't the Internet in those days. It was just brochures with one picture of a swimming pool. So I thought it must be a spa and someone looking like they're having a relaxing massage. Anyway, it turned out it was more of a health spa where you checked in and everyone was in white dressing gowns. And I was like, oh, God, I'm sure it's gonna be fun. We'll have a lovely massage, we'll have a nice dinner. I'm sure they've got good food here and let's see how it goes. I remember I had a very awful massage that was less relaxing and more therapeutic. Tomorrow didn't look good by the look on her face when she came back from her spa session as well. And I was like, oh, Christ. And we were early dating still. I was still trying to impress. I said, look, let's just go and order us some really good wine downstairs, get drunk and we'll leave tomorrow. It's too late now. So we got downstairs and everyone was still in their dressing gowns at dinner. And then it was a calorie controlled menu. And I'm like, oh. And they didn't serve wine. I'm like, this is it. So we snuck off. I felt like I was escaping my matron at school to the local pub, got shit faced, came home, stayed the night and then went off in the morning. And there was that moment where we were like, I think, James, maybe you need to work on trying to find some better hotels. And we started talking about the idea the genesis of Mr. And Mrs. Smith. I was like, yeah, because everyone talks about the little black book idea but no one actually does it. So we were just the couple who were going, yeah, let's do this. This is what we want to know. I want to know things like A, I want to know if there's a good hotel. B, I want to understand what the rooms are like. What's the spa like? Is it somewhere you're going to relax or are you going to be? Is it like this joyful place we're in? What's the food like? Is it too formal? What should you wear when you're in the restaurant? I want to know about the size of the place, I want to know about the smell of the place. I want to also know about. We have this lovely section called worth getting out of Bed for. So if you do leave your room on your romantic weekend, what would you do in the area that was interesting? Rather than visiting churches or whatever, we revisited the way that I think an urbanite wanted to explore, boutique hotels as we now call them. And we also were very conscious that it shouldn't necessarily be about five stars because five star hotels doesn't mean it's a great hotel. There's some amazing guest houses or restaurants with rooms or pubs or rooms that we felt were good enough to be in our book. And then you had amazing places like the Manoir au Cateison where you are going to get an extraordinary Michelin star meal in a totally different mind blowing way. It's going to cost you several hundred pounds a night back in those days, but that would be for a very special occasion. But why can't we have the Drunken Duck in and the Manwa and Babington House and Cowley Manor all in the same book? And Trezanthum, to me it sounds like an exciting book and I just want a casual weekend away. Great. I go there. I've got an anniversary. I go there. We totally reinvented the way people put a, as we call them, collection of hotels rather than chains of hotels which people talked about. And we took that nod from our fashion from because obviously collections of clothes. So the whole thing was trying to reinvent the way hotels were curated and written about. And then we had some other little bells and whistles which were important building blocks for the brand where. Who are we to say these are great hotels? I'm not a trained hotel inspector so let's use some of our friends to go off and review them for us and let's get the reviews done by Couples. Not by a gray faced old hotel inspector who's chewing on his prawn cocktail at night on a Monday telling me how I'm going to be experiencing this hotel with my hot girlfriend at the weekend is totally mismatched. It's crazy. So let's send away people we knew. I was good mates with Felix from Basement Jack's. Let's send him away with his girlfriend. The PR agency we knew actually knew Raymond Blanc well. So let's send him away with his girlfriend or whatever. We had all sorts of people. We had Rory Keegan who owned China White. Pete went off with two girlfriends. That was a review. Oh, my God. The Lugger in Cornwall was never the same after that review.

[Unknown]

Mr. Mrs. And Mrs.

[James Lorne]

It really was. Yeah, he went with his wife and his girlfriend, but that's another story. And so we have some amazing people doing these things.

[Unknown]

You won't know this, but I, I've done some reviews of hotels for Mr. Mr. Smith back in the day.

[James Lorne]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

So my wife and I were very lucky to be dispatched to the Maldives.

[James Lorne]

Very well.

[Unknown]

We went to Candy House in Sri Lanka on the same trip.

[James Lorne]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

And we also had an incredibly memorable stay at Palazzo Margarita, which is the Francis Ford Coppola.

[James Lorne]

Amazing. Amazing. What a place. So, yeah, I mean, you've done really well. I think you, you're doing as well as me.

[Unknown]

I know I'm still available. So I, I'd love to talk to you more about that later on because it's actually, I think the process is really interesting of dispatching people on behalf of the brand who.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Who are completely anonymous and completely impartial and it's really interesting. Yeah. I don't know if it still works like this, but it was booked by someone in your office.

[James Lorne]

Still the same.

[Unknown]

Masquerading. Masquerading as an assistant under a pseudonym. And you get there and the hotel has no clue that you are there for Mr. And Mrs. Smith. You stay for two nights, you get some spending money. You're encouraged to try out all the different bells and whistles. And then at the end, the mask is pulled back and you have to reveal your Mr. And Mr. Smith voucher.

[James Lorne]

And say, that's it.

[Unknown]

Sorry, you know, sorry about this, but this is a complimentary say.

[James Lorne]

There's something. They're really nice to you.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's really, it's fascinating.

[James Lorne]

It's really interesting. It was one of those things where we felt that the anonymous review is so important and we're very lucky. Now we have over a million members around the world who essentially are anonymously reviewing for us. And we hear about it if something's not good and we act on it incredibly quickly. The curation is so important to us. And also, I think having a couple going away, whoever you might be, as a couple. And I liked having the sort of the smorgasbord of interesting folks going out there and doing things differently and coming back with stories, because that's what it's about. So that was another big building block for Smith of how we wanted to reinvent the way guidebooks were written. So it was some cheeky fun bits from packing tips to dress codes to working out of Bedford, but all in short form. Then a really interesting 800 word review, hopefully from a couple. You could tell which couples were in love and which weren't as well. They came back sometimes. Geez. A few of them are like, that's not gonna last. Yeah. Or a few of them were like, wow, you ditched swing from the chandeliers. Wow, blimey. So that you could feel the energy in some reviews. And some of them you were like, this isn't gonna work. So that was also really interesting when we get the reviews, but it's still interesting when we get the reviews back.

[Unknown]

So can you have a diffusion line for divorcees? Maybe it's a perfect singles night away.

[James Lorne]

We've thought about dating sites and all sorts over the years, but what we have learned as well is to stick to your knitting and try to just do one thing quite well.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I can imagine with your entrepreneurial mindset, there's so many opportunities. You're never short of opportunities, are you? And you've got to say no to almost everything.

[James Lorne]

It's really difficult, particularly if you're wired up that way, which I am. And yeah, I find that hard. That's one of the challenges of growing a business, I would say the kind of. The fun bit in inverted commerce is that creating and getting it going and stuff. And actually it becomes more laborious when you've obviously got to run it. But then it can become beautiful. It can sometimes just be working with almost out you being around and you're like, wow, this is cool as well.

[Unknown]

I love that stage. I must say. I think we're at that stage now with the modern house and Indigo, where it doesn't rely on Albert and myself as the founders for the energy. That's really exciting, I think. And to see it take on this life of its own. Yeah, it's such a great process, given.

[James Lorne]

We'Re getting old as well, we're running out of energy. You need to hand the baton on.

[Unknown]

You do.

[James Lorne]

And find people that are cleverer than you, always. Luckily, my wife's always filled that gap beautifully, so it's been fine.

[Unknown]

I was interested by this because actually, so is she the cto, so she's.

[James Lorne]

Now the CEO, so we've all had a go at it. Yeah. So I did the CEO for the first 12 years and then everyone realizes probably James should move on. I've always looked after the brand, she's always looked after the tech and the operations in broad brushstrokes. And then we have a third partner called Ed, who's always been looking after the finances. So I was the CEO for the first 12 years, then Ed took over for a few years and then we all realized that tomorrow she'll be running the company. And thank God we did, because she's doing a much better job than all of us and steered us all through Covid and come out the other side better than ever, really. So she's really the backbone to the business and I get to do the fun bits, like interviews with you.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Nicely done.

[Matt Gibbard]

Just a quick one. I'm really pleased to say that this podcast is sponsored by one of my all time favorite brands, Vitsu. Over the past 25 years or so, I've been very lucky to visit hundreds of beautifully designed living spaces. And if I could name one product that I've seen more than any other, it would have to be the 606 universal shelving system from Vits. I think the reason that so many people from the creative industries live with Vitsu shelving is because it's so incredibly versatile, both functionally and visually. It works in big spaces and small ones, modern places, traditional places, townhouses and country houses. And the key to its success, I think, is that it's been paired back to its absolute essentials. Dieter Rams, who conceived it back in 1960, famously said that good design is as little design as possible. And I couldn't agree more with that. To find out more about this brilliant product, you can visit VitSoo.com that's V I T S O E dot com right. Back to the podcast.

[Unknown]

That brings us on to the present. And you're home to the present. Before we get onto that, I just want to ask you the very obvious question about being a partner in business as well as in life.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Over such a sustained period of time, what was that like for you guys? That's tough, right?

[James Lorne]

It's a really good question. And, you know, it's again, it's all about this sort of how suited you are to each other, how much you are in love with each other to be able to get through what are very difficult times. And when you add the business and your relationship together and kids and dogs and everything else, then it can become very challenging. But it's a huge. But for me that, first of all, I think whether you're in a marriage or a business relationship, you need to have your own areas of supposed expertise. I think the things that fail or my partnerships, in terms of my business partnerships have run their course is when we both started to almost do each other's jobs. And I think that anyone that's looking to get into business with anyone, whether it's your best friend or your wife, husband, whatever it might be, make sure you are not both the same.

[Unknown]

You.

[James Lorne]

You've got to complement each other. So Tam, as I said, is very good on the techie side and the operational side. And I'm allegedly all right on the sort of brand side of things. So I think definitely making sure you're complementary is huge important. So I feel incredibly fortunate that we've worked together. I'm so bloody lucky that she's super, super smart and, yeah, I can do all the stuff that I hate doing and I'm rubbish at really well. And she's also really blossomed in the last few years as the CEO. She's been the best CEO without a doubt. So, yeah, so it's just worked well for us as a relationship, I would say.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. Well, let's talk about your Dutch barge.

[James Lorne]

Dutch barge, yes.

[Unknown]

This is fascinating. So it's a boat that you guys sailed back from Holland, is it?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, we got some experts to do that bit. We're on the boat, but we. Yes. So my mother in law, who we love, she's. She's a bit of an old hippie, used to live in Ibiza. She's always lived slightly differently and she lived on a Dutch barge, a jog, I think it's the pronunciation in Chiswick and it's still there today, a beautiful boat called Libra. And Tam and I started Smith. We were living in Clapham at that point because that's where all my business was. But it wasn't very convenient for Heathrow, which we seem to be in and out of all the time for Smith. So why don't we move further west? And we decided to set on Chiswick and this mooring came up. So my crazy mother in law said, oh, there's a mooring come up very close to me. You should come get a boat and do this. We're like, maybe we should, why not? It sounds like fun. And so I think we bought the lease on the mooring for like 70 grand. And the views there are amazing. You cannot get better river views than being on the river. So it's always the dream, isn't it? So we got the mooring and then we went off to Holland to go and find the boat and we found this funny old boat. But it seemed to work shape wise for us. It had this amazing wheelhouse already which we could have dinner parties in it. It ended up for about 12 people, Big Wheelhouse, big flat back. So I could do the odd sort of outdoor party which I was quite keen on doing still at that age. And it felt like the right size. We could have two bedrooms in. And it just. It was a slightly quirky, it wasn't as beautiful as Tamara's mother's boat, but functionally it was brilliant. Really good. And we got this thing about. Bloody hell, now we've got to do it up. And we didn't really know much about doing up a boat. We learn quickly. So the things in case anyone is looking for doing upper boat, the things you need to know are everything is curved. It's a bloody nightmare. It will take every carpenter at least 10 times the length of time it would to do something in a house which also equates to 10 times the cost because it's in the water. It gets very, very cold in winter. So you need to double spec your heating of what you would do in a house otherwise you're going to freeze. So those are my two main tips.

[Unknown]

Did you not put enough heating in?

[James Lorne]

We did actually because thankfully when you live in a little community of boat people, they are very quick to tell you everything. Thank God they did because I think I would have got it very wrong if they hadn't so learned all these things very quickly. Really enjoyed the process even though it was stressful, expensive, nearly bankrupted us, but really loved it. And I remember we had our bedroom and our ensuite bathroom. You had to walk through the engine room which we literally. The diesel tank was there because it was. The heating was run on diesel and the diesel tank would come up the tents to fill you up. That's how you run your heating. And if you didn't bring him in time on his weekly visit, you'd be out of heating. So it was quite cold sometimes anyway, that was the sort of downside of Boat living. But I remember you walked through there. We had this amazing sort of freestanding bath on a raised platform and we had black flocked wallpaper from Osborne a little, I remember. And it was. The days of. It was like Blake's, I guess it was very sumptuous. I mean, we're in the Nomad Hotel doing this interview, which has got a bit of Blake's about, in terms of its rich colors and stuff, I think, and atmosphere. And that was what we were all into in those days. So it was like this magical sort of mystery bathroom through this sort of dodgy looking engine room, which I really love. The juxtaposition of the working boat and the sort of glamour of the ensuite, so to speak. So there's a few. There's a few raw elements to boat living where you have to get through these things and there's the rocking.

[Unknown]

Right. So you get used to the rocking from side to side.

[James Lorne]

You do. But our mooring was quite a posh mooring. You landed on some nice, whatever, wooden, whatever you call them. Coastery things, whatever. I can't think of what they call them. So it was always straight when we were down, but. Yeah, during the day it would rock a bit, but it was being able to have a cup of tea up in the wheelhouse and watch the swans going by and the cormorants diving for eels. And it was pretty idyllic most of the time. And when the macerator wasn't exploding or we weren't running out of diesel or whatever else was going wrong with it, it was wonderful and an amazing project to do and we loved it. And I could see myself going back to a boat at some point. I really could. Yeah.

[Unknown]

I imagine that it fits quite well with your personality. I would have thought, this idea that there's the endless opportunity to be able to, you know, unlaw it and just take it somewhere, even if you don't.

[James Lorne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

Is that part of the appeal?

[James Lorne]

Yeah. So I. We never actually. Because this was 130 foot steel hull, this is a big thing. And I always said to people that crashing a car is one thing, but crashing a house, you really don't want to do that and you really can. So I did have the dream of having the little boat to moor up by the side and go to the pub in, which is a bit of a dream because it's quite hard finding moorings to get the bloody boat to the pub anyway. But because I'm an idiot, I decided I wanted a speedboat rather than a Small outboard engine to get me up to the pub. Because I learned that beyond Wandsworth Bridge, there's no speed limit on the tail Thames. I don't know if there is today, but that used to be the rule. So I started going, now, let's get a speedboat. Let's not get a little boat that gets the boat. Let's go full on. And we bought this thing. I can only describe it as a. An XR2 on water. It was so naff. It was called the Bear. I bought it somewhere in Kent from some magazine called boats are under 20 grand or something. And that was my. Yeah, that was my sort of tender boat, I guess you would call it, wouldn't you?

[Unknown]

So where do you live now?

[James Lorne]

We're very lucky. We live on a park now. And I think, going back to maybe when my dad lived on Wandsworth Park, I've always wanted to live on a park. And we live. We still live west. We live on Gunnersbury park, which is one of these parks. And no one really knows, but it's a big. It's 180 acres. It's a bit rough around the edges, but it's big and I really love it there. And we're one of these lucky peoples where the house isn't particularly pretty, but we have this garden that has a gate at the. The back that goes straight into the park. And we were talking, as everyone does earlier in our lives, about moving to the countryside and have we had enough of London and all these things? But we couldn't because the business was here. And so we decided that the next best thing would be to try and move next to a park. And I feel like the mixture now of being in London, but being able to go out and have this literally countryside on my back garden is extraordinary. So I feel really lucky to be there and I really love it. And we're still close enough to Heathrow that we can travel as much as we can as well.

[Unknown]

Well, this is the obvious question, isn't it? I mean, as someone who does travel a huge amount and always has done, or certainly during your adult life.

[James Lorne]

Yep.

[Unknown]

What is that? What's that done to your sense of place?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, it's a really good question again, because I'm actually quite a homely person, I think I did one of those psychometric tests once and it says it doesn't like. He doesn't like travel, he likes being at home. They've got me, probably right. But I actually. I obviously do love travelers well, but I do love home and I do enjoy when I get back as much as I'm obviously staying in amazing places and being spoiled to death. And that's lovely.

[Unknown]

I'm just interested to know of someone that has such a change scene, really quite a lot of the time. What does that do to your senses of grounding and feeling at home when you're at home and London as home.

[James Lorne]

So being home for me, we don't have a home that looks like a hotel at all, that's for sure. It's a real eclectic mix of stuff that we've collected over the years. Stuff from our travels as well. Of course, I've had inspirations from being in hotels, but I definitely didn't want it to be like a hotel.

[Unknown]

Why didn't you want it to be like a hotel?

[James Lorne]

Because I feel like that would bring. Bring the job home even more than it already is. In a weird way. You want to feel like you've got your own sense of place and space as well. I think. There's no question I get inspirations from my travels. Whether that's pieces of furniture that I've seen or whatever it might be like, oh, my God, I'd love to have that. Colors and things. It does have an influence on it. But I'm going back to when I was at my dad's and my mum as well. It's about the cosiness of your home. It's about creating that place where nothing has to be as perfect as it does. Maybe in a hotel, I would say. And although I am quite clean and my kids get annoyed with me because I don't like mess necessarily, but I still want it to be a place where you relax and it's where you hang out and it's where you get away from it. It's where we put our feet up and. And we don't worry about things and it's where we celebrate and we have meals together every day and all these sorts of things which are really important to the home much more than necessarily the design. But I am of course interested in design as well. Don't get me wrong. I just think that it's more about making a place that's got a lovely atmosphere, I think is the most important thing to me, rather than necessarily the expense I've gone to on whatever it might be that I'm buying. It's about, does it have a good feel about it? Is it a restorative place? Is it a place where I feel like I want to hang out in.

[Unknown]

You know, I couldn't agree More. And I very much admire what you said there. And setting that to one side. What do you think we could learn from hotels that you can bring into the domestic realm? Because you've seen as many hotels as anyone.

[James Lorne]

I think I might be nearly. I've got to be top 10 of the most visits in hotels, please. Personally, when I've got to be. I think I've been to about. I think I've been to nearly 4,000 now, I reckon. Wow. Rough estimate. Yeah. There's quite a lot of hotels in it. Not stayed in them, but. But visited. Yeah. Stayed in. I can't remember how many, but.

[Unknown]

So if it was a sort of family tree and you could steal. You could steal some. Some ears and noses and eyebrows and put them together in an ideal home. Can you think of any of the things that you would take?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, there's no doubt. Great hotels that do it effortlessly usually have great designers behind them. So like the Nomad we talked about here. I love this place. I think it's brilliant. It's Roman and Williams who I just think has some of the best designers in the world. They've done things like the Ace Hotel, Freehand, Nomad, all sorts of amazing restaurants in New York. Go have a look at them if you haven't seen it. So really doing a bit of research on the building and understanding the building to give you some pointers. I think I probably took those ideas into my own house because we live on the park. So I had a park life kind of theme, if you like, for what we did with our home. And I think. So trying to understand your. Your place, where you are is really important because I've seen so many hotels that look out of places. Where's your nod to your locale? Where do you fit into here? So that's super important for me, I think, is the first thing I've learned from great hotel design. And then it's what are you looking to achieve here? And it's what sort of an atmosphere? What do you want to bring into your home? What reflects you and your taste? But don't do it just for what looks good. I think a lot of spaces I've been to look beautiful in a magazine, but actually are bloody uncomfortable and quite stark and I don't want that. And so I think you learn about what you want, not what you think your designer wants. This is what designer is looking at. You've then got to think about the different spaces and how they work. Where you have breakfast in a hotel can also be where you have Dinner. So how does that change. So how does your place of breakfast change to where you're having dinner? So I think when you're designing your home, think about if you make something too glamorous, do you want to be chewing your cornflakes on that velvet? Does that feel a bit too much or is it. Yeah. What's going to work for breakfast, lunch and dinner is how I think about things.

[Unknown]

Really good point.

[James Lorne]

So I really start to think in my house, the bar that we set up is where we have casual suppers and breakfast and stuff. And then we've got a sort of open plan kitchen table where we might do our dinners. So trying to have different spaces for different occasions is what I try and do. Because hotels do that. I think zoning areas is important. So in my home I've got a sunken area, which I like because I'm from the 70s and I've always wanted it for some reason I must have picked up on it somewhere. And I've got those sort of toga sofas down there. I love those low slung sofa things where you can hardly get out on them at my age. So I've tried to, in the open plan, break it up as well and try and do things. And I think hotels do that really well. And then in bedrooms, obviously we're very big on bedrooms because it's Mr. And Mrs. Smith. It's all about, for me, the lighting. It's all about obviously the bed itself. What bed you going to use, what sheets you're going to have. I'm obsessed with all those sorts of things.

[Unknown]

What, so sheets, what, the best Egyptian cotton or what?

[James Lorne]

Exactly where you're going to get all these things from. Every time I sleep on a bed that I particularly love, I will go and pull up the mattress and write it down.

[Unknown]

I'm glad you did that as well.

[James Lorne]

Oh, no, you got to. It's too important being obsessed about linens and beds and lighting, obsessed about blackout blinds in your room so you get a good night's sleep. This is what good hotels do. Bad hotels don't have these things. So there's lots of stuff I've learned from hotels. I think it's like you said earlier, maybe. I guess I'm a magpie and I don't know where my ideas come from. So they come back into a melting pot and you come out with what you think feels right for you and the way you and your family want to live, don't you?

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

As you're talking, I was thinking a number of years ago, I was lucky enough to stay for a night at Chateau Marmont.

[James Lorne]

Oh, yes.

[Unknown]

In la.

[James Lorne]

It's very rock and roll, which has.

[Unknown]

Really good fun, actually. But out by the pool, we met a very eccentric lady, probably in her 60s or 70s, and she had a series of small toy dogs on leads. And when I say a series, she had several.

[James Lorne]

Really? Yeah.

[Unknown]

And she was taking them for a little walkies through the ground.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And we got chatting to her and she was just brilliantly effusive and good fun. But it turned out that she lives at the chateau. Certainly did. There.

[James Lorne]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

And I'm sure you've come across people who live permanently in hotels. What do you think about that idea?

[James Lorne]

I love it. In one way, I love it. Listen, I think as you get older, I think you'll become great, because I actually know a story of someone who had a small hotel in the south of France, a couple, actually, and they didn't have any kids, no relatives, and they converted the top floor into their penthouse apartment. And the general manager then for many years, they said, you will look after us until we die, and then we will give you the keys. It's for you. And we want to be looked after like hotel guests till we die. And I think that wouldn't be a bad place to go. I've always thought a boutique care home would be an awesome thing to do. I'm just not into it yet. It has been on my mind. You should do it for a long time. It's been on my mind, but I'm just not down with it yet, because I'm not that age. Going back to. I'll only do businesses that I feel an affinity with. I don't feel ready to quite do that yet, but I think retiring to somewhere like Babington House with all my mates would be awesome. Wouldn't that be a cool thing to have?

[Unknown]

What do you think hotels get wrong?

[James Lorne]

Oh, my God. I've seen another podcast for that.

[Unknown]

But what are the worst things you've.

[James Lorne]

Seen from the beginning? The signage. I can tell if a hotel's good enough from the sign. So I think you can literally tell now from the moment you arrive, wherever it is. And I do mean that. From the signage to how they're talking to me and how they're directing me.

[Unknown]

What are the telltales?

[James Lorne]

It's just things that the design of the sign is crappy. It's on a crappy. It's not on a nice piece of slate or a beautifully carved piece of wood or something. It's on a plastic thing or it's got some sort of poles, it looks like a conference center or whatever. That's the first thing. So your initial reaction is that then I'm looking at the grounds, whatever that might be, and then when I arrive it's then about is someone going to come out and meet me or not? Now my expectations are different on that. So if it's just going to a pub, I have no expectations of coming to meet me. If I'm staying at a fancy hotel, I expect someone to be coming out and helping me. I think the welcome is really important and this is down to staff training and team training and trying to make it effortless and natural. You can tell the great hoteliers because they've trained their team to be casual with you and relax with you, but not too matey, like we know each other and go back 20 years, but not too formal, that it's, oh my God, this place is really stiff and boring. So it's a really difficult thing to teach as well. The pig hotels, they always have fantastic staff and Robin and Judy are some of the best hoteliers in the world, I would say. And they have that lovely mix. Well, he's very clever because he calls it a restaurant with rooms.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[James Lorne]

So he's already underplaying it to start with.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[James Lorne]

And I love that.

[Unknown]

Exactly. Under promise over deliver, of course.

[James Lorne]

Page one, chapter one. Always do that and everything if you can. Don't go and start trying to cross create too much hype around something. Just let it do its thing. And I think the greeting and that bit is really important. Hospitality is about hosting and I think sometimes hotels forget that. They think they've got all the nuts and bolts in place, but actually the magic happens when the team and the place is set up with the lighting and the sound and the smells and all these things are set up perfectly. I think a lot of hotels became good at design and it was more style over substance, whereas actually in the old days it was more substance over style. And the great hotels are the ones that are met in the middle, I would say.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly. I just want to ask you briefly about some of the mechanics of the business, because I'm imagining there's quite a lot of crossovers with what we do with the modern house and Indigo. Actually. How are you assessing them in that very first stage? Is it just a reaction to do I like it or not? Or do you have some sort of rating system?

[James Lorne]

Yeah, so no, we don't. We have a closely guarded scoring system. Do you I mean, I don't know how closely guarded is, but it's been built up over the years to what are we looking for in our hotel? And we are going on almost, like I said, the design. In the old days, when we first started, you could get in on design because it was so dreadful, the design in the old days, that actually anything with a modern design was, like, so refreshing that you'd forgive some other things. And now it is really down to can the barman mix me a great martini? Are these sheets the best sheets I've slept on ever? Is that one of the best nights I've ever had? The food is obviously hugely important. It's probably the second most important thing after the style of the hotel. And then the spa. I would say some hotel inspectors worry about how the napkins are folded, which I'm not so worried about. And so we spend more time on the experience. And also the value I'm interested in is that good value for money. When I'm doing this business, I don't see myself as a travel agent. I see ourselves as much more important than that. We are looking after your free time, your precious free time with your loved ones, whoever that might be. And you're spending a lot of money on that. And I want to make sure you have the best possible time you can. That's the most important thing to me. And some of these times are big times. You could be getting engaged, you could be celebrating the 60th birthday, whatever it might be. These are big moments in your lives. I think that's why we all love hotels as well and why we're all so passionate about hotels. We are looking after people's memories, I guess, and so we take that seriously.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think another parallel between what we do and what you do as well would be just being an editor or having a point of view. What do you think about that? Because we're so overloaded by information, aren't we? In our world, it's rightmove and Zoopla that are the sort of aggregators where you find everything, but you also need places where you can find a point of view.

[James Lorne]

I agree. And I think I'm going to disagree with people saying that there's no such thing as good taste. I think there is. I just believe there is. And I think there is some really bad taste out there. And I'm not going to go and stop saying this is good and that's good or whatever, but for me, it doesn't matter whether it's classic or contemporary. It has to have, for me, good taste as we define it in the way that we define it. And I really believe that there is a thread out there, because a lot of people ask me, how do you curate? How come you've got this next to this? And if there's something in there, each of these, that maybe you're not seeing, but I can see clearly that they're part of the same family. You learn that from doing it, you learn it from us. So all our curators that work for us in house all go through a sort of a. An induction with me, actually, and Tam and I have made videos on it and what we're looking for and what we want them to look for. And then we have this rather cheesy phrase, I. If in doubt, leave it out. We're not in the business of doing stuff that's mediocre. And that's the lovely thing about this company. I don't have to put in hotels. I don't want to. And that's what we strive to do. We're not perfect. We don't get it right all the time, but we'll always strive to be that.

[Unknown]

Yeah, let's talk about the future.

[James Lorne]

Yeah, let's talk about the future.

[Unknown]

Come on. Where are you going to live?

[James Lorne]

That's a good question. And I haven't worked that out yet, so I might have to come back and do podcast Round Two in a few years and let you know. I genuinely haven't worked it out where. And it very much depends on what happens with Mr. And Mrs. Smith and how long we're a part of the story to where we end up, I think, and we're certainly not ready to move on yet. There's still too much to do, we feel, and we're enjoying it too much. My dreams of going to the countryside didn't quite happen, and maybe they will happen later on. But at the moment, I'm really enjoying London, I have to say. But I think I always, as I'm sure everyone has, I'm obsessed with grand designs and having a sort of blueprint in my head going around of a house that I'd like to live in at some point. Of all the things that I've got wrong in other houses or whatever I've learned from my travels. And so wherever it might be, whether it's home or abroad, it's definitely got to have a view. I definitely want to see the sea. I think the sea is really important. I'm definitely. I think you're either water or mountains aren't you, allegedly. And I'm definitely a water person. And I remember having this really lovely short stay with my mum and my sister down in Foy in Cornwall, which is a very cute little town. And we had this house right on the estuary and the view was ever changing because the sailing boats were coming in, the ferries were coming in. The sound of the lines on the sailing boats clacking in the wind had a real atmosphere to it. I want a view that's got something to it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[James Lorne]

Moving postcard. Yes. That's what I want because I like to ponder the day with a coffee and finish the day with a glass of wine. And I think that's the view I'm after. So if anyone can find this for me. Maybe you should get you to find this for me when we finish this. Yeah. I'm going to commission you to go and find me this perfect place. That would be great.

[Unknown]

All right. Send me to the Maldives and you'll be fine.

[James Lorne]

Okay, cool. Deal. So I'm definitely looking for the view and then I don't want something too big as well because actually I found that when our house got a bit bigger I just ended up doing more cleaning hours. And I don't, I don't want a massive house. I really don't have an urge to have a big house.

[Unknown]

How much space is enough?

[James Lorne]

It's enough that we four can live comfortably with our own space and enough to have, I think 14 is the number I seem to always get to for the. For Christmas or New Year's or parties or whatever for dinner. But not in a massive kitchen. But still this open plan thing, I really, I want a garden that's again not going to take me weeks to. To maintain. But it's got to have enough there that I can do my bull planting. I can have a small veg patch. I need a greenhouse to grow tomatoes for tomorrow, which she loves. I need a bit of that. But I don't want a massive place. I don't want to be on a bloody ride on mower all my free time. I need a bit of mischief there. So I'm thinking I want somebody to house all my records and all my, my music gear. I feel like I need a basement bar type place that's going to be soundproof so I can have the odd party. I'd like to do that. And I've always. And I'm doing shopping list for. This is sounding terrible but I've always wanted one of those spiral cellars I've been obsessed with. I just Love the idea where you go, oh, we've run out of booze, and then you pull the rug away and there's this amazing spiral cellar with all this wine in it.

[Unknown]

That's so weird you say that. Instagram advertised one of those to me this morning.

[James Lorne]

Are you serious? How weird is that?

[Unknown]

I've never seen one before.

[James Lorne]

Have you not? I've been obsessed about them for years. I've always wanted one, so I thought about that and then I think, obviously all homes need a bit of balance, so I would like also a really nice, calm sort of reading room. And I'm obsessed with my memories, boxes and things. I like to keep all those things and photo albums and that sort of stuff. So it's a place where we can just go and reminisce and read and chill out. And that'll be the grown up side of the house, I think. And then, yeah, probably two bedrooms because I'm snoring too much, I'm guessing, at least for Tam and I. So. Yeah, and enough for the kids to come back with whichever loved ones they come home with one day. So that's it. Is that something you can help me with?

[Unknown]

You're happy where you are?

[James Lorne]

I am at the moment, yeah. Really happy.

[Matt Gibbard]

Out of interest, what would be the.

[Unknown]

Kind of personal possessions that you think you'll retain into older age?

[James Lorne]

Good questions. Lots of things. I couldn't tell you what they are exactly, but things we've brought back from travels. There's definitely a few pieces, like I'm obsessed with myself. Sofas, which I mentioned earlier, the toga ones. And I've got a lovely sort of Miro glass chrome coffee table that fits nicely with it. And I've got some nice stuff from Marrakesh, you know, a few bits.

[Unknown]

Do you see yourself working from home as you get older? Do you think you'll work forever?

[James Lorne]

We're working from home now. The whole business is actually working. We got rid of our offices during the pandemic and it's been one of the best things we've done. It's a challenge as well. Nothing's easy, of course. So many people have moved abroad now or moved to the countryside with their families, which I love, and we still meet up and we still have get togethers and we have an awful whole company gets flown in from around the world once a year for a big sort of two day session, which is really good. So we're seeing each other. Maybe not as much as we'd like to, but I think the benefits of not commuting and people having more space and that sort of thing has been brilliant for the company and for the people working for us. I hope that we're giving people a lot more time back and quality time back, which I think has been a real. One of the gifts from the pandemic for us has been that.

[Unknown]

So I've got a more personal question.

[James Lorne]

Okay, that's fine. We can go there.

[Unknown]

Brace yourself. Looking back at your childhood.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So your parents divorced.

[James Lorne]

Yep.

[Unknown]

You were sent to boarding school age 9, which is pretty formative.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then you described how you didn't particularly get on that academically, and then your dad effectively gave you a bit of a boot out the door.

[James Lorne]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

At a comparatively young age. Others leave sooner, but certainly there was tough love there.

[James Lorne]

Right. Yeah.

[Unknown]

What's that done for you and your sort of outlook on life as you must have had to be pretty resilient and also pretty comfortable with your own decision making.

[James Lorne]

Right. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Is that fair?

[James Lorne]

That's very fair, yeah. And I think I'm very thankful for the resilience because I think you do have to be resilient. I really think you do in this world. I think it's actually even more important now than it was when I was being booted out, maybe earlier. And I think that's showing itself because kids are living with their parents till God knows what age. And it's. I think it's a sadness for me. You know, our job as parents is to make our children independent enough that they can go off and stand on their own two feet because we're not going to be here one day and they can't always be looked after by Mum and Dad. So I'm very thankful for the tough love lessons that I got. I genuinely. And I think that young people now, with social media and all that brings the additional pressures on what life should look like, is meaning that we're going to have to breed as parents, even greater resilience into our children somehow. And that's a difficult thing to do. I think the benefit that we have as parents is that we are closer with our children because we're more involved with our children. And I think it's our job then to help them with building that resilience so that they can go off and realize their own dreams, whatever that might be. That's a tough undertaking. We've had an incredibly difficult time with Smith over the years and we've just always managed to bounce back and get through it. And you've got to somehow have that resilience if you're going to run your own business, because it's bloody difficult. So, yeah, resilience is, I would say, the number one thing that I have and Tamara has.

[Unknown]

No, exactly. And that resilience that's been built into you really comes across in your success. What would be the downside, though, of that childhood and those experiences you had?

[James Lorne]

So I'm probably emotionally not as open or loving, I would say, with everybody I am with my kids particularly. I'm sure Tamara might say that. He's all right. Sometimes I call it back with the odd romantic weekend away. I know a few places, but maybe I'm not as comfortable with some people emotionally because I'm a bit more standoffish, even though I'm very warm and welcoming in many ways as well, because I've spent my life hosting people in nightclubs and things and bars. But it's always been on the surface, if you like. Does that make sense? So to get under the skin of me, maybe, and to really have a relationship with me where maybe you'll get the best of me, that's quite rare, I would say. I don't think many people would have that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So when you're gazing out over your moving postcard view, looking back over your life, what do you think will give you the most satisfaction?

[James Lorne]

I feel like the most important thing for me, and it's probably a little bit cliched as well, is that I've always had a go at everything I've wanted to do, apart from racing car driving, because I was probably too chubby to get in the car. There's nothing I haven't tried that I've wanted to do. That's amazing and I think that's pretty cool to be able to say that. And I hope there's a few more things I want to try still that I haven't done yet still to come. And I think although your priorities change as you get older, hopefully if you've established yourself a bit and it's not just about paying the bills and what have you anymore, I'm hoping I'm going to be able to bring some other things to the world, whatever it might be, I don't know what it is. I certainly don't have any grand plans at the moment to do anything major again. I think as. And when this one does finally come to whatever conclusion it is, whenever that might be, then I'd probably want to take a bit of time out anyway, at that point and reevaluate what I want to do. But I think going back to the beautiful view, I can think of nothing better than maybe trying to go off and do that for a little while as a nice sort of project just for me and the family would be a lovely thing rather than work in the traditional sense. I guess so, yeah. So I think that's the thing that I will look back on, that I definitely haven't wasted any time. I don't believe, and I definitely haven't wasted any opportunities or had a go at anything that I wanted to. So that's quite a nice thing to say.

[Unknown]

I think it's amazing. Well, thank you so much, James. Really nice to meet you.

[James Lorne]

It's been lovely to talk to you. It's been really great. And yeah, I love what you guys do as well. I think it's just really nice to have a chat about stuff that goes beyond the business.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thank you very much to James. He's gamely furnished us with some slightly ridiculous photographs from his childhood. So if you fancy having a chuckle at those, we'll publish them on our website, as always, which is themodernhouse.com if you haven't yet subscribed to the show, please do tap the follow button and you'll be alerted as soon as a new episode gets released. This podcast was produced by Hannah Phillips and edited by Oscar Crawford, with music by Father. Thank you all for being here and talk to you on the next one.

[Unknown]

Bye.