Nigel Slater: the food writer opens the door to his fascinating home life

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nigel Slater – The Food Writer Opens the Door to His Fascinating Home Life

Episode Title: Nigel Slater: the food writer opens the door to his fascinating home life
Podcast: Homing In
Host: Matt Gibberd and The Modern House
Release Date: November 13, 2024

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of Homing In, Matt Gibberd welcomes renowned food writer Nigel Slater to delve deep into the intricacies of his home life. Hosted by The Modern House, the conversation transcends mere domesticity, exploring how Nigel's living spaces have profoundly shaped his identity, career, and personal growth.

Childhood Homes and Early Memories

Nigel Slater begins by recounting his childhood, detailing two significant homes that molded his early years.

First Childhood Home: Penn, Staffordshire

• Description: Nigel spent the first 11 years of his life in a spacious mock Tudor house with a vast garden featuring a large pond—perfect for childhood play.

• Family Dynamics: Living with his parents, two brothers, and an elderly aunt, the home was vibrant and bustling. The aroma of his mother's baking, especially oat flapjacks, was a constant presence.

  Nigel:

  “It was a very happy house. ... We had a large table that we would eat round, albeit so 1950s Formica topped table.” ([04:01])

• Garden Influence: The extensive garden, teeming with fruit trees and blooming flowers, ignited Nigel’s passion for gardening, inspired by watching his father cultivate the space.

  Nigel:

  “I think it's probably where I became so interested in gardening, was watching my dad garden and grow things.” ([05:16])

Second Childhood Home: Worcestershire Countryside

• Transition: Following his mother's passing, Nigel moved to a secluded cottage in the countryside, a stark contrast to his previous vibrant household.

• Challenges: This new environment was isolating, devoid of nearby friends and filled with tension due to his father’s new relationship.

  Nigel:

  “I was aware I was in the way of their life.” ([18:36])

• Emotional Impact: The move introduced feelings of being unwanted and confined, leading to a sense of oppression despite the beautiful surroundings.

Impact on Personal Life and Career

Nigel's tumultuous childhood had a lasting effect on his personality and professional journey.

Relationship with His Father

• Dynamic: Nigel describes his father as a "bully" who struggled to connect with him, failing to nurture his confidence or support his interests.

  Nigel:

  “He was a bully. ... I left school secretly knowing what I wanted to do because I'd worked it out for myself that I was never happier than when I was cooking.” ([15:16])

• Career Divergence: While his father hoped Nigel would join the family business, Nigel followed his passion for cooking, leading to a strained relationship.

Love for Gardening

• Origins: Inspired by his father's gardening, Nigel developed a profound love for cultivating plants, which remains a significant part of his life today.

  Nigel:

  “I realized that the garden was a happy place, or could be.” ([15:12])

"Toast": Writing and Its Profound Impact

Nigel shares insights into his acclaimed memoir, Toast, and its unexpected journey.

• Initial Concept: What began as a series of magazine articles about childhood foods evolved into a memoir capturing pivotal moments of his life.

• Catharsis and Reception: Writing Toast served as a cathartic process for Nigel, allowing him to process his past. The book resonated deeply with readers, leading to adaptations in radio, television, and stage productions.

  Nigel:

  “What is my sort of duty of care ... they relate to my stories.” ([20:00])

"A Thousand Feasts": Celebrating Life’s Little Moments

Nigel introduces his latest work, A Thousand Feasts, a collection reflecting on the small, cherished moments that constitute a fulfilling life.

• Inspiration: The book emerged from reorganizing his attic's cluttered notebooks, extracting precious memories and trivial yet meaningful anecdotes.

  Nigel:

  “I wanted to put them all together to take the best pieces.” ([26:02])

• Themes: While it encompasses various facets of his life—travel, gardening, food—the overarching theme is positivity and the celebration of everyday joys.

The House Fire: A Turning Point

Nigel recounts a life-altering event—a house fire in his 20s that obliterated much of his possessions and early writings.

• Experience: Renting a room in Shepherd's Bush, Nigel and a friend discovered their house ablaze, resulting in the loss of clothing, notebooks, and personal items.

  Nigel:

  “...our house was in flames. And I have a theory as to what happened, but I won't say anymore.” ([31:53])

• Aftermath: The fire provided an unintentional fresh start, forcing Nigel to declutter and reassess his possessions and priorities.

Current Living Situation: A Sanctuary Evolved

Nigel discusses his present home—a large Georgian property he meticulously renovated to reflect his personal tastes and professional needs.

• Renovation Journey: Initially purchasing the house to prevent its transformation into a white box, Nigel invested time and resources to uncover hidden architectural features and restore its original charm.

  Nigel:

  “I knew that underneath some of the changes that people had done over the years, there was a home.” ([37:44])

• Functional Design: Emphasizing the separation of work and personal spaces, Nigel designed distinct areas for writing, cooking, and relaxation to maintain a balanced lifestyle.

  Nigel:

  “I need somewhere that is my home and my workspace, but they can be separate.” ([45:20])

• Collaborations: Hosting house guests like James Thompson, Nigel values shared living while maintaining distinct personal spaces to preserve harmony.

Writing Process and Daily Routine

Nigel offers an intimate look into his disciplined writing regimen, highlighting the rituals that fuel his creativity.

• Morning Routine: Rising at 5:30 AM, Nigel dedicates his mornings to writing from 8:00 to 12:00 PM, interspersed with reading novels and enjoying a meticulous breakfast.

  Nigel:

  “I wake up at 5:30 each morning ... writing before lunch is the best writing I’m going to do all day.” ([51:16])

• Work Habits: His writing is a blend of structured discipline and spontaneous creativity, often enhanced by testing recipes and drawing inspiration from his garden.

  Nigel:

  “I pin something there. ... I have to...test a recipe.” ([50:28])

• Sound and Music: Contrary to many writers, Nigel finds music distracting during writing sessions, preferring silence to maintain focus.

  Nigel:

  “Music tends to muddy the waters for me when I’m trying to write.” ([48:50])

Shyness, Anxiety, and Highly Sensitive Personality

The conversation delves into Nigel's struggles with shyness and anxiety, shaped by his early experiences and environmental sensitivities.

• Crowded Environments: Nigel experiences intense anxiety in crowds and poorly designed spaces, necessitating quick exits and coping mechanisms to manage panic attacks.

  Nigel:

  “If I can’t get out, I have a good old fashioned anxiety attack.” ([79:46])

• Design Considerations: He advocates for more thoughtful architectural designs that accommodate sensitive individuals, emphasizing the need for accessible exits and comfortable nooks.

  Nigel:

  “We need somewhere to sit. We really do need somewhere to sit.” ([85:40])

• Personal Coping Strategies: Nigel has developed strategies to manage his anxiety, such as carving out safe spaces within his home where he feels secure and can retreat from overstimulating environments.

Smell and Atmosphere: The Essence of Home

Nigel passionately discusses the pivotal role of scent in defining a home’s ambiance.

• Sensory Connection: He believes that a home's scent profoundly impacts its feel, drawing parallels between his memories and the fragrances present in his current residence.

  Nigel:

  “Putting food that you have made in front of somebody, making somebody something to eat, it just is the most heartwarming thing.” ([58:54])

• Collaboration with Perfumers: Partnering with British perfumer Lynn Harris, Nigel has co-created scents that encapsulate the essence of his home, blending elements like frankincense, vetiver, juniper, and hints of ginger and vanilla to evoke a warm, inviting atmosphere.

  Nigel:

  “We've taken my favorite perfumes ... It's an utterly generous, joyous, wonderful thing.” ([60:55])

Current Happiness and Reflections

Nigel reflects on his current state of contentment, attributing his happiness to his ability to live authentically and embrace his passions without fear of judgment.

• Life Satisfaction: Despite past traumas, Nigel expresses profound happiness, cherishing his work, home, and the freedom to explore new creative avenues.

  Nigel:

  “I am so happy. ... I could say, well, I've written memoirs and essays and I've written cookbooks. Maybe I could write something else.” ([72:44])

• Acceptance and Growth: Having reached a stage where he no longer worries excessively about others' opinions, Nigel embraces the potential to diversify his creative output, from gardening to possibly screenwriting.

Conclusion

Nigel Slater’s journey, as shared in this episode of Homing In, is a testament to resilience and the transformative power of home. From a challenging childhood to achieving personal and professional fulfillment, Nigel illustrates how our living spaces deeply influence who we are. His insights into design, sensory experiences, and the importance of creating a sanctuary resonate with anyone seeking to understand the profound connection between home and identity.

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Notable Quotes:

• On Childhood Home:

  “It was a very happy house. ... We had a large table that we would eat round, albeit so 1950s Formica topped table.” ([04:01])

• On Gardening:

  “I realized that the garden was a happy place, or could be.” ([15:12])

• On Writing "Toast":

  “I started to write it very much as a recollection of the food rather than a memoir.” ([20:00])

• On the House Fire:

  “...our house was in flames. And I have a theory as to what happened, but I won't say anymore.” ([31:53])

• On Current Home:

  “I need somewhere that is my home and my workspace, but they can be separate.” ([45:20])

• On Writing Process:

  “I've got a little squirrel store in my head of ideas and recipes.” ([50:28])

• On Shyness and Anxiety:

  “If I can't get out, I have a good old fashioned anxiety attack.” ([79:46])

• On Home Scent Collaboration:

  “Between us, we came up with something that actually smells like this house, or I hope it does.” ([60:55])

• On Happiness:

  “I am so happy. ... I could say, well, I've written memoirs and essays and I've written cookbooks. Maybe I could write something else.” ([72:44])

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This episode offers a profound exploration of how Nigel Slater’s homes, both past and present, have intricately shaped his life's narrative. His candid reflections provide listeners with valuable insights into the symbiotic relationship between personal spaces and personal growth.

Transcript

[Nigel Slater]

Foreign.

[Matt Gibbard]

Welcome to Homing in the podcast from the Modern House. I'm Matt Gibbard. After a brief hiatus, we are back and there have been a couple of changes since we were here. So we've got a new theme tune. Big thanks to Simeon Walker for that. And we've also settled on a bit more of a long form format. So the conversation you're about to hear is pretty much unedited, apart from the odd loo break or ginger biscuit, because Nigel's a bit of a feeder. We recently asked you who'd be your dream guest on the podcast and the person with the most votes was somewhat inevitably, I think, Nigel Slater. So here he is. Nigel lives in North London, just around the corner from where I grew up. I've always been a huge fan of his writing and I sort of expected that he might be a bit of a kindred spirit, having watched his career and progress very closely. But actually spending the day with him in his house, as I say, around the corner from where I grew up, it was all a bit overwhelming, to be honest. He's the first person ever to make me cry on this podcast and I don't think I really need to say any more than that. This is a conversation I will always remember and I very much hope you enjoy it too. Happy listening. But Nigel, what an absolute joy, joy to be in your house. I mean, it's, it's a real privilege, I have to say, but I really want to talk to you about this house. But before we do that, I'd like to just go back in time to where you grew up. So could you tell me about where you were born and what the childhood home was like in your early years?

[Nigel Slater]

Well, there were two childhood homes. There is one that is definitely me as a child and then there's my adolescent home. But I was, I spent the first, I suppose, 11 years in a house that I have always thought was actually quite a big house. It felt a big space, although when I returned to it a few years later, it wasn't a sort of mock Tudor, sort of 1960s, 1950s house on an estate with a very large garden, huge garden with a big pond in it, which was great as a kid for playing. And it was a very happy house. So there was Mum and Dad and my two brothers and an elderly aunt. So it was always a busy house. It was a place that felt very safe. You know, I'd come home from school and mum had been baking, so the house sort of smelled of oat flapjacks or whatever. We had a large table that we would eat round, albeit so 1950s Formica topped table. But it was a big family table. Big squashy sofas and the family golden. Golden retriever, who spent most of his life curled up in front of the Aga. But he was part of home. And, yes, it was. It was comfortable. It was in Penn in Staffordshire. Within walking distance of school and within walking distance of lots of friends. So it was a sort of house where I could play. I could bring my friends home. We could play in the garden, we could play in the house. And I suppose the size of it, the sort of scale of having a big double Aga, a big family kitchen with another kitchen next to it, which we called the scullery, which was where most of the cooking went on. It was a good, happy place. It was also the largest house on the estate. So lots of kids could come and play. I could have big birthday parties there. It's a good house.

[Matt Gibbard]

So. Happy?

[Nigel Slater]

Oh, very happy. Very happy. You know, Mum, who. Because I came along about 15, 18 years after my brother. So I was. Yeah, I think I was a mistake, actually. I'm sure I was a mistake. It's like I'm pregnant. And although Mum wasn't very well from when she had me, she was still very active. And. Yeah, a proper, happy family home with a wonderful greenhouse that I could play in that smelled like a proper greenhouse with potting compost and things. A big garden, lots of trees, lots of fruit trees. And I think it's probably where I became so interested in gardening, was watching my dad garden and grow things. A garden that I have to say was very of its time. A large lawn with circles cut into the grass and then fruit trees in it. So lots of rhododendron and azalea and phlox. Lots of wallflowers in the spring. Very 1950s 60s type garden to go with a 1960s house.

[Matt Gibbard]

So he talks about your brother there. But you also had an adopted brother, is that right?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes. Never thought of him as adopted. He always reminded us that he was. But, no, never. He was just my eldest brother. Yeah. Yes, one. One of three boys and. And the youngest. And to this day, reminded that I am still the youngest.

[Matt Gibbard]

So you're youngest by 18 years, though, are you?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

So that's a big gap. So essentially, were you an only child? From what? From what age?

[Nigel Slater]

From as long as I can remember, yeah. My brothers were around until I was probably about 8 or so. And then they left home. My one brother moved down to Cornwall because He was a surfer and he wanted to surf all day. And my oldest brother moved to London, to my father's horror, really, because he wanted one of us to go into the family business. So he trained as a gunsmith. One of my very few regrets is that I don't have one of his guns because they were beautiful, they were such beautiful rifles, but they disappeared at one point. And then he set up his own engineering company. And of course he wanted an heir. He wanted at least one of us to take over the family business. And none of us were interested at all. And I think I was the last hope. Will Nigel run my business? At which point I'd started to, you know, bake scones and things at home. And he realized that wasn't going to happen. I wasn't going to be an engineer, I was going to be a cook. So, yeah, none of us interested at all.

[Matt Gibbard]

So you were there for what, eight or nine years, that first house?

[Nigel Slater]

I was there until I was 11.

[Matt Gibbard]

11.

[Nigel Slater]

So briefly after Mum died, I was there very briefly. And then we moved. Could not have been a more opposite life. It was miles out in the countryside, no friends within. I mean, miles. Literally miles. And not a happy house. A very lovely cottage, very old, rather beautiful, very large gardens, kitchen garden, even a little orchard, fortunately surrounded by woods where I played as a kid. And I built dens. I loved making dens. But there was no one to come over and share them with me because all the other kids were miles away. And my father installed this woman that I wasn't expecting. So going from having a very traditional mum, dad, brothers, I then moved to an area that didn't feel like home. And the house certainly didn't. When you're living with the woman who became my stepmother, who didn't really want me around. My father treated me like a bit of a nuisance because he wanted to be with her. And then he got this rather annoying, precocious little son who took up a lot of his attention. And as I say, no. No friends to play with. And because they'd run away together because my. My father and this new woman had run away, I wasn't even allowed to tell my. My friends where I was. I wasn't even allowed to give them my address. We were literally in hiding, I think from her husband. In fact, I'm sure from her husband. Right.

[Matt Gibbard]

So, yeah, I mean, anyone who's read Toast your. Your amazing memoir will kind of know the story of this. But she was called Joan, right?

[Nigel Slater]

I called her Joan. In the book you call Her.

[Matt Gibbard]

Joan in the book. But that's not her real name.

[Nigel Slater]

No, that strange thing, that I wanted to keep her family private. I didn't want to intrude, so I gave them all, you know, I made up names. Yeah. And then, of course, when the book came out, they. They all came out to the newspapers and spoke about it. It's like, hello, you know. So, yeah, my sort of duty of care as it was to keep them out of it, they dropped themselves in the middle of it. So.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, you write in the book, I think, that you were quite often alone in the house because your dad went out to work, is that right? And then you were sort of around on your own with the creaky floorboards, by the sounds of it.

[Nigel Slater]

So my dad's business was in the Midlands, it was in Wolverhampton, and although he'd moved, he still had to travel, so he's away for a lot of the week. So I was in the house with the housekeeper who became my stepmother. And pets, there were lots of. I had all the usual rabbits and guinea pigs and all the rest of them. But, yes, I was in the house alone on my own. And like many old houses, it was very creaky and little kids on their own are quite scared of creaking houses at night. You think somebody is coming up the stairs or whatever, a ghost or someone's coming to get you. So I was, yes, I'm quite scared. Surrounded on three sides by woods, so you've got owls at night and all the spooky sounds, no street lights, because we were miles out in Worcestershire. Actually, when it was dark, it was really dark. I spent a lot of my childhood quite scared. And also it was a much older house, so even at that age, I felt there was. I don't know, there were spirits in the house from previously previous owners or whatever, and every little creak and rattle suddenly becomes something major. It becomes. I know kids like scary fairy stories. I mean, even if you. Even some nursery rhymes have got a sinister. If you think about them, and you're supposed to enjoy that as a kid, but, yeah, I spent a lot of my childhood in a scary house.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

In more ways than one.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. Right. Sounds very oppressive in general.

[Nigel Slater]

Yes, oppressive. But there was. There was these incredible views. I mean, if you just looked out of the window, you've got a view of all the surrounding hills, all of the fields, the pastures, the meadows, as far as you could see. I couldn't see another house, which, of course, people used to sort of stop their cars and get out and just look at these amazing views. Whereas to me, it was just big, scary space, you know?

[Matt Gibbard]

So did that teach you to be comfortable in your own skin, in a way, in your own company? Because you live here on your own, don't you?

[Nigel Slater]

For most of.

[Matt Gibbard]

Most of the time.

[Nigel Slater]

Most of the time. Not all of the time. It's some other people's sort of London home.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Nigel Slater]

So I've got friends who treat this house as their London home.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Nigel Slater]

But, yes, I would build little dens in. In the woods. I would make bits of the garden mine. You know, there was a little. A little sign saying nigel's garden. That's it.

[Matt Gibbard]

That.

[Nigel Slater]

That's mine. And of course, there were imaginary friends at that age. Can you put another. Can you lay another place at the table? Because my friend's coming.

[Matt Gibbard]

Did you go that far?

[Nigel Slater]

Did you? Yeah, I think so. Yes, I think so. Imagine your friends quit. Quite fun. In those days, there were pets. There were always dogs to take, to take for a walk. Strangely, I don't think I ever felt alone. I'm rather sad that the word alone is mixed up with lonely, because I've never felt lonely.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yes, it's the distinction, isn't it, between loneliness and solitude?

[Nigel Slater]

Solitude, absolutely.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

Even as a kid, I liked solitude. Walking in the woods, going for walks with the dog. Very happy. Reading a book on my own in the garden. Just as happy then, actually, as I am now with it.

[Matt Gibbard]

So you mentioned in the garden there. How did you get into gardening as a child?

[Nigel Slater]

I think it was because I saw my father being so happy when he got his secateurs in his hand and he was going around the garden deadheading the roses. Or when he was in his greenhouse potting up begonias. Or most of the plants that I've learned to hate, but very 1970s plants. He was so happy. He was at peace with his pipe. He was always smoking something. A cigar or a cigarette. Yeah. Or his backyard or his big pipes. And he was genuinely happy when he was in the garden. Whether he was pruning a tree or whether he was digging up carrots from the veg garden. And I think some of that rubbed off onto me. I realized that the garden was a happy place, or could be. And I had my own little garden, my own strip of land which, when I think about it now, it was the really difficult bit that he didn't want to grow anything on. It was very stony. So all my carrots, they weren't long, thin, beautiful carrots. They were all bendy because they hit stones and pebbles going down. But I had some pocket money and I remember opening a gardening catalog and going through things that I wanted. I wanted cosmos and I wanted candy tuft and I wanted carrots. And they worked, they came through. I saw these little seedlings appear and I realized that I actually could do something because my father didn't think I could do anything. And I could, I could grow things and I loved it. And also being outdoors, because I enjoyed being outdoors. And that, I think, is where gardening, my love of gardening came from. And it did. It just grew and grew and grew.

[Matt Gibbard]

So your relationship with your dad sounds pretty complicated.

[Nigel Slater]

He was a bully.

[Matt Gibbard]

He was a bully.

[Nigel Slater]

He was a bully. And it's my belief that part of your, as a parent, part of your reason for being, is to give your child the confidence to go out into the world. And he didn't. He knocked that confidence out of me. I left school thinking I wasn't particularly academic, I wasn't good at sport. What was I good at? Well, I knew because I'd secretly done cookery at school. He thought I was doing woodwork and I'd signed up for cookery. He's very cross when he found out I was lucky enough to go to a school where they accepted that there was one boy who wanted to, to cook rather than make a coffee table. And yeah, I, I, I, I, I think I left school secretly knowing what I, I wanted to do because I'd worked it out for myself that I was never happier than when I was, when I was cooking. But it certainly wasn't with his, his approval.

[Matt Gibbard]

How have you rationalized that? Why do you think he did bully you like that?

[Nigel Slater]

He was slightly panicking. He had always left bringing up of the kids to mum and suddenly she wasn't there. So he was in a state of panic for a while. I think trying to be a dad who was at home, actually very little time, needed to spend time with his kids, but actually it had to be worked. He's running his own business. He was there. He spent more time at work than he ever did ever did at home. But also watching a kid who clearly wasn't going to be the kid he dreamed of, the boy who would take over his business, the boy who would be very sporty and successful at sports at school, where he got a lad that was happier making a tray of biscuits, which wasn't what he envisaged at all. So, yes, he was in panic. How do I bring up this, this lad? I guess also that he knew later on that he'd brought a woman into my life that I didn't get on with. We just simply did not gel. She was very unlike my mum. She swore she smoked everything that Mum didn't. There was a big distance between us and also that really difficult thing, and this is not her fault at all. That difficult thing. When somebody new comes into a child's life and you. The child assumes that they are trying to take the place of that person. So I assumed she was trying to take the place of my mother and she was nothing like her now. She wasn't. She was just a woman who'd fallen in love with my dad or with his bank account or whatever. I don't know. She'd fallen in love. She'd fallen in love with the situation. I was part of the deal, which she clearly didn't really want because her kids were older and they'd left home and. Yeah, I mean, it was. I can see now it was a very difficult thing for her, a very brave thing for her to do. But at that age I felt she was trying to replace. Replace Mum. So there was a huge gap between us. We didn't really get on from day one.

[Matt Gibbard]

So basically you were inconvenient to both of them, weren't you? Essentially, I was.

[Nigel Slater]

I was not wanted and was aware I was not wanted. I was aware that I was in the way of their. Of their life.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's so tough. I mean, have you thought about what sort of impact that's had on you, just in your life in general? I mean, for example, would you think that with the great success that you've had and all the things that you've done, is that something of a middle finger to that, to those people, that period in your life somehow, do you.

[Nigel Slater]

Think, I don't know, is the answer to that? I've never really analyzed it or thought about it very much. It's just. I suppose the good thing that came out of that childhood was the ability to enjoy being on my own, to enjoy being. To do what I want, really. I mean, certainly not. Having parents that watch over your every move means that you do become quite independent. And I was aware that I was actually quite happy when there was no one. No one else around, once I got used to it. But I'm not sure what other effects that that childhood has had on my life really. I've never analyzed it.

[Matt Gibbard]

Is that because you don't want to, do you think?

[Nigel Slater]

I mean, something busy too? I don't. I don't get a minute to. To sit and think about anything. And also I, I feel it's, in a way, it's pointless really. Life goes on and I've got lots of things happening and I don't, I haven't blotted it out. In fact, I've used it as a part of my, part of my career. That thing, you know, your mum and dad, they you up. But at least you can write a best selling book about.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, well, quite.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Gibbard]

But, but that is that actually in all seriousness though, that act of you putting that down on paper, that whole story, the book toast, that is definitely a form of catharsis. Surely it might. That that must be sort of an attempt at healing in a way.

[Nigel Slater]

When I started writing it, I didn't think that was gonna be the case. It never dawned on me I was initially telling a story about the food of my childhood. All of the things that I loved as a kid. So the sweeties, the cakes, the Sunday lunches. But when I started writing about those things, I realized that they fitted in to a certain point in my life. And so I was writing about what was happening and then realized I was actually writing a memoir. Because initially it was written as a magazine article. And then Louise Haynes, my book editor at the time, said, and actually still is to this day said, you know, I read that piece and I think it should be your next book.

[Matt Gibbard]

Oh, that was clever of her.

[Nigel Slater]

Yes. And I started to write it very much as a. A recollection of the food rather than a memoir. And then got halfway through it and thought, this is all, it's too personal. Not in as much as I was letting daylight in a magic. It was nothing like that. It was just that I felt no one would understand. No one remember those foods. And also perhaps that the story I was telling around the food, because obviously there is the tragedy, there is the very sad bit of, of toast when mum dies. But there's also, there are quite funny moments in the book, but I wasn't aware that anybody would. It would resonate with anyone until it was published. I very nearly. Well, I almost did give up and said, I don't think I can finish this book. I don't feel it will resonate with anybody. And then it was published. Yes, my editor pressed me to finish the book and when it came out, then the letter started coming and people stopped me in the street and said, you know, this is my story. I lost somebody I was very close to. I was suddenly thrown into a completely different life. But also there were people who remembered the cakes and the chocolates and the silly things that I'd found in my Christmas stocking and had fond memories of them too. And then it became what it was, a radio adaptation and a television film and then a stage play. And the gift that keeps on just going, you know, keeps on giving.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, I said to you before we started, it's. It's the book that. Of any book ever written. It's the book I'd have loved to have written myself, because I think it's so honest and evocative and visceral. And I read it again last week in preparation for this and just. It's just such a brilliant book. So it doesn't surprise me that it really resonated with lots of people. You've recently written another one.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

What's your latest book about? Because I haven't read that yet, so.

[Nigel Slater]

A Thousand Feasts is the best bits of my life. It's the tiny little moments, because I'm a. I don't have a very good memory, actually. I've always had to write things down. And fortunately I've written down not just recipes but also little stories. And they're in notebooks and have been in the junk room in the attic. And I went into the attic, I just finished writing a cook's book, which was sort of one of the favorite recipes of my life. And they had little stories attached because my recipes always do, sort of diaries, really. And I went into the attic for something and it really is the room where things go to die. The angle poise light that keeps flickering or that you're going to get repaired and never do. It's that room. It's the room where all my accounts go. But I walked in there and thought, I've got to tidy this room out because it really is a tip and I can't find anything and I'm having to clamber over bits and pieces of furniture and I found a box of books, of notebooks, a bit of a hodgepodge, actually. Some of them were very neat, written in fountain pen, proper little essays. Others were just notes. There were even one liners of things I wanted to remember. Events, people, things I'd eaten, much of which was incredibly trivial and very personal, some of which I thought, that's quite a nice little story there. But they're mixed up with receipts, old Polaroids, squashed spiders, all sorts of things that collect in junk rooms. And I wanted to put them all together to take the best pieces. And at the time I was in that blissful period when you've just published a book and you're not entirely sure what your next book is going to be. Your options are open and it's a very special moment that it only lasts for a few months, but it's great.

[Matt Gibbard]

Why is that special?

[Nigel Slater]

Because your head is completely clear and because you have options. Once you've signed that contract and decided what that book's going to be and you've started to put pen to paper, you got to finish it and there's a. A very delightful break. And I was on that break and I thought, you know, this really might work as a collection of little stories. Some of them seemed so precious and, and I'm so glad I wrote them down, but they were very personal. I was thinking, will this work? Is there anybody else who can reminisce over the same thing and enjoy them as much as I did? But I sat there with this collection and cherry picked pieces out of it. Some things happened last year, some things happened 30 years ago. They're not really very foodie. There is a couple of food chapters in there or cooking chapters, but there's travel, there's gardening, there's those odd moments that you want to remember. I spent quite a bit of time in Japan and as you know, you take your shoes off when you walk into a Japanese house or even some shops. And the shoes in Japan are always placed very neatly in a row. It almost looks like someone's got a ruler out to place them. And when you stay in the POD hotels, the Japanese POD hotels, you can just look down the corridor and you can work out who's Japanese and who isn't. By the way, they've left their shoes. But then I'd been traveling in the Middle east where also people take their shoes off when they walk in the house. But they are, they're just left in a heap. But they're still very beautiful. They're very worn and very scruffy and covered in dust. Completely the opposite from the Japanese shoes. But I noticed this difference and I'd actually written an essay about the difference between how people take their shoes off and how they enter a home. And I remember just reading these essays about the difference and then putting it's got to go into the book because it's something that fascinates me.

[Matt Gibbard]

When you say you'd written an essay, was that just for yourself?

[Nigel Slater]

Completely for myself. So I keep a daily diary. Well, actually I keep several really. So there's the diary that I write in the morning about what I did the day before and that's partly practical, so that I know what was in flower in the garden at this time last year. I know what was in season. So when I'm doing my column, when I'm writing my recipes, I know what I should be looking out for. What's going to be in season in a couple of weeks time when the piece comes out. But also it's because I've got this very bad memory. So I write that daily diary. It's not in any way a Dear Diary. It's not my soul on the page. It's purely practical. You'll be in there tomorrow.

[Matt Gibbard]

Can't wait.

[Nigel Slater]

Chat with Matt. Absolutely. And then there's my food diary, where I write down everything I eat, which I started years ago for a story for a magazine. And I've never got out of the habit and I just do it. Something rather useful about going back over what you've eaten over the last year. When you're a food writer and when you need to get things. There's no point in writing about gooseberries in March. You've got to know when things are around. So that's very useful. My tummy's rumbling. My tummy always rumbles when you put me in front of a microphone.

[Matt Gibbard]

You're talking about food, that's why, because.

[Nigel Slater]

You'Re talking about food and. Yeah, and I've only had a little bit of breakfast, so I've got these diaries, but then I've also got a garden diary. So it's there. These pieces are there in a way. A book is almost written. Toast had been, you know, hills and valleys. There were some very dark pieces in toast, very unhappy times. And they were really funny, happy moments. With this book I only wanted to remember the good times. There's a lot happening in the world at the moment. You are bombarded by conflict and by war and by horrible things happening. You take it on board, you sit and you listen to the news. It becomes at the back of your mind, you can't get rid of it. It's there all the time. I needed five moments in a day when I can sit down with a cup of tea and read something. Whether it's flipping through a magazine, mindlessly looking at other people's homes or whatever, or whether it's going through my diaries and my best moments, which is what a Thousand Feast is. I've put the one liners in these little. They're like bad haikus, actually, these. These little moments that I've collected. Just odd, odd things, but also long stories. But it's all positive. It's all happy. It looks like I live in some rose tinted bubble. But yeah, in a way, I needed that. And I wondered whether perhaps other people do too. Just right now, because we are. Things ain't getting better.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, that sounds brilliant. I really look forward to reading. That sounds wonderful.

[Nigel Slater]

So you only asked me what the new book was about and I've taken 30 minutes to tell you. I'm sorry.

[Matt Gibbard]

No, no, no, no. That's really good. Did you live in a house in your 20s that burnt down?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

Tell us about that. What happened there?

[Nigel Slater]

I was renting a room in a house in Shepherd's Bush.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

And I was living with mostly young people, students. It was a bit of a tip, actually. But I. It was home and I went out with one of my. One of my roommates, one of my friends for the evening. We went to Julie's Bar, which was great because it always felt very luxurious. It was quite starry, Julie's Bar at the time. And spent far more money than I should and came home. It was a Sunday evening. We walked home and I said, there's fire engines at the bottom of our road. I wonder what's happening. And then walked down the road and realized that it was our house that was in flames. And I have a theory as to what happened, but I won't say anymore. But suddenly our house was a galloping smoke and with it pretty much everything I owned at the time, including early notebooks, early diaries, which, thinking about it, I'm quite glad those diaries probably have gone. Diaries in your 20s, not brilliant ago, not the best years of my life, but also pretty much everything I owned. I know that I turned up at a friend's house when I phoned them and said what had happened with nothing much really. The clothes I stood up in, I'd managed to rescue one book, which was Mum's copy of Alice through the Looking Glass, for some reason was the only thing. The fireman had thrown it out onto the. Into the street with lots of other child belongings. But it was.

[Matt Gibbard]

Wow, that's amazing, isn't it?

[Nigel Slater]

It is. It's also a fresh start. It's an opportunity. You get rid of a load of rubbish that you've been carrying around for years. But that did include. Apart from what I was standing up in, it was all my clothes. It was everything.

[Matt Gibbard]

Just a quick one. I'm really pleased to say that this podcast is sponsored by one of my all time favorite brands, Vitsu. Over the past 25 years or so, I've been very Lucky to visit hundreds of beautifully designed living spaces. And if I could name one product that I've seen more than any other, it would have to be the universal 606 shelving system from. From Vitsu. I think the reason that so many people from the creative industries live with Vitsu shelving is because it's so incredibly versatile, both functionally and visually. It works in big spaces and small ones, modern places, traditional places, townhouses and country houses. And the key to its success, I think, is that it's been paired back to its absolute essentials. Dieter Rams, who conceived it back in 1960, famously said that good design is as little design as possible. And I couldn't agree more with that. To find out more about this brilliant product, you can visit VitSoo.com that's V-I T S O E.com right, back to the podcast. So we asked some folks on our Instagram channel what questions they would ask you. And someone did have a question on this. There's someone called Latte Papa or something along those lines.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Did Nigel feel the house fire enabled him to almost evolve into a new style or shift direction in the objects around him over time? Did it become renewing?

[Nigel Slater]

What a wonderful. That's a wonderful question, because I don't consciously. There wasn't a moment when, okay, everything's gone. I can start again. But thinking about it, yes, absolutely rubbish that you carry on, you carry with you. When I first came to London, living on people's floors, on their sofas, you still carry around this bag of crap that you've had all your life, that you've never been able to get rid of, that was gone. So it was, yes, I was able to have a fresh start. Unfortunately, I didn't have the money to buy lots of new things. I was cooking at the time, or actually, maybe I was front of house. Maybe I was a waiter. I love being a waiter. Putting food in front of people. I love that. I go back to that in a heartbeat. If anything went wrong, would you really? Yes. Yeah. I love. I love. I loved it. I was a very good waiter as well, I have to say.

[Matt Gibbard]

I bet.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah, I was. That was great. I love this question because there was never a moment when I thought of everything being fresh and new, like turning, you know, like January 1st on your new diary. But it was a fresh page and I could start again and I really could go back to living in one room. I could live in a bender in a forest. I'd be fine. And yes, being forced to get rid of Things that you felt you couldn't live without, but actually you can. And what's better, your life is more interesting without. Without them, these things that you carry around. So, yes, it was. It was a new beginning and possibly it was a new way to think about. To think about how I wanted. How I wanted to live once I got over the angst of having to curl up on somebody's floor because I hadn't got home anymore. And once I got settled. Yes. Where did you go then, when anybody would have me? Wherever, you know, have you got a spare room? And the horrible thing about turning up at somebody's house when you've had a house fire is you smell of smoke, right? You really do. You smell of a charred, charred remains of a house, which is not. It's not good. It seems to seep into your pores, into your clothes, into everything. And when you go back and you try and rescue bits and pieces, everything smells of smoke. It's horrible, actually.

[Matt Gibbard]

So tell me the story of what it was like when you got here.

[Nigel Slater]

I was looking for a larger property, a larger flat, a couple more bedrooms, a little bit more space because I work from home. The estate agent showed me this house and I thought, I can't afford it. Why are you showing me this? You can afford it because they've got to sell very quickly. I really advise you to buy this house. And at the time, the green space outside was covered in old fridges and mattresses, and it was a bit scruffy, but there was something about it that felt right. There was also an architect's plan on the table, and I was shown what the house could be like. So this is the plan we've got, but we've decided to sell instead. We're not going to do it. And I looked at this plan where the Georgian windows at the back were being knocked out and a big glass box was being put on on the front. It was. It was that typical thing of buying a beautiful Georgian property and then gutting it. And something said to me, I need to stop this happening. I felt the need to rescue the house from having its guts pulled out and being turned into a white box. And even though I knew I couldn't really afford it, I went ahead accounts by Hans Christian Andersen. I managed to sort of wangle it, that I could afford it and at the time had to fill it full of lodges because I couldn't quite pay the mortgage and camped out for. For a long time. I knew it was the right house. I knew that underneath some of the changes that people had done over the years. There was a home, but I couldn't afford to do anything with it. So I lived in this house with it not being right for years, actually, many years. I think it was. It was actually Maureen Docherty, the late Maureen Docherty at EIG who was filming here. She was a little film of me cooking. And she said, you know, it's a great house, but it isn't really your home, is it? And those words just settled in my head. It's not. It isn't really a home. And I started to work on it and to, with planning permission, to make a big kitchen, which was very exciting because I found two fireplaces hidden underneath the plasterboard, which I didn't even know were there. That lovely thing of looking at what you hope are shutters on the windows, but you're not entirely sure until your carpenter pokes around with a chisel and opens them up and you find out that for some reason somebody has just cemented them up and they are actually there with all the original panels. That thing of exploring. And the more I did this, the more I fell in love with the house. And then it slowly started to be. To become a home. I didn't realize when I moved in how big it was. I was aware that because I'd only seen it once before I put the offer in and the previous owners had had it for a very short time. I did a little bit of research and realized that it had quite a history. It has still got a closing order on it because at one point there were too many families living in the house and the council had closed it. And there was also Patchett had been wanting to be in a hospice. So I was aware a lot of people had probably died in the house, which I was okay with. Not everybody is, but it had also been an art gallery. It had been the home of a collection of Italian art for many years. I liked the fact it had had, you know, quite a life. It had been. It had been various things, but I wasn't aware of how big it was until I actually moved in and thought, gosh, this is a big old girl. She really is. This is going to take a lot of. It's going to take a lot of money and a lot of time. In fact, I think it was a couple of flaws. I didn't. I almost closed off, really, when I first moved in. It slowly became somewhere I wanted not just to live, but to work. There was always this problem because I'm. Because I write and Because I cook that. I've got to have somewhere that is my home and my workspace, but they can be separate. I mean, I've now got a work kitchen and a home kitchen, but it needed to be that. Because I love my job. I pinch myself every day that I do for a living. What I do, I love it. But at the end of a day's food photography or recipe testing, I really want to just shut that off and I just want to go and make myself something to eat. That is not part of work, that I don't have to measure it and write everything down in notebooks. I want to be in a room which has never seen a laptop or seen a wooden spoon, you know, completely, totally separate drawing room. I needed that space, and I suddenly got it. I knew that with work, this house, it could be the right space. It also had a garden, but I'd never lived in a terraced property before, so I didn't realize that if you want to create a garden, which I did because there was just a lawn here when I moved in, Every single tree, every bush, every bag of dripping compost. Because you're a terraced house, it has to go through the house. There's no rear entrance to the house, to the property. So that's something I would seriously consider if I went house hunting again, is. Can I. Can I redesign a garden without taking wheelbarrows full of manure through my. Through my hallway? Because it really does matter, actually. Especially when you've actually finished your hallway.

[Matt Gibbard]

So did you get the trees in through the house as well?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes, I moved it. I. We moved everything. Everything has. Even now everything has to come through. Come through the house.

[Matt Gibbard]

So they started off quite small.

[Nigel Slater]

I planted everything as. Yes, literally as twigs. And some of the early pictures that I've got of the garden have almost nothing in it. I don't think there's one tree that was here when I. When I bought the house. But, yeah, I rescued it. I felt this. I've got to stop any major changes to this house. And I knew that. Well, I hoped that somewhere there would be some very simple but rather lovely corners, that there would be some fireplaces that I could open up. Didn't realize I was 14, but I. But I. And I've grown into the space.

[Matt Gibbard]

Have you? Yeah. Do you use all of it?

[Nigel Slater]

I use all of it now. Absolutely all of it. There's a couple of rooms upstairs which people who use the house as their London pad, their London home, I kind of feel it's theirs. And Although I could go into those rooms quite easily. I don't because I feel it's their, it's their space. Although obviously they use the whole house.

[Matt Gibbard]

So hang on, is this when you're away then that they.

[Nigel Slater]

No, no, no. So for many years I worked with a guy called James Thompson, who was my TV producer and would work with me in the kitchen. And then one day he had. He had enough of TV and media and he went off to, actually to Beirut to set up a series, a wonderful idea from his childhood, where you have communal ovens that the whole village comes to cook in.

[Matt Gibbard]

Oh, wow.

[Nigel Slater]

And he realized that they would work in conflict zones and places where people had lost their homes. So he set up this thing called the Great Oven, where he invites artists to paint these great big ovens for local women to come and cook sort of 200 meals a day in these great big oven. He's made that his home, but he wants a London base, so he comes for weeks on end and lives here. And I quite like house guests that go, no, I love having people in my space. I absolutely love sharing my home. But it's also that moment when you say bye bye and you know, somebody's had a lovely time and you've welcomed them to your home, but now they've gone.

[Matt Gibbard]

I know it well.

[Nigel Slater]

I mean, James is welcome anytime. And I mean he just turns up and that's. It's absolutely his home. But yeah, other. Other house guests. Yeah, you're. You're fine for a while.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. That's amazing. So who's he effectively got his own bedroom then? James?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes, absolutely, yes. I mean the whole house is his. I mean he can do what he likes. But yes, he has his own space and I like that idea that there is somewhere you can, he can escape to that is purely his in a way that I can escape to different rooms. So if I've been at my desk and my desk faces the road, I'm hidden by a window box, but I can see the world and see what's going on. But when I finish writing, I can go to another room. I can come into the drawing room here, for instance, and I don't allow myself to do any work in this room. Not even write a note, not even write a note. I don't do anything. I come here and that's. It's also where I make myself tea and I bring it and I sit at the table and sit on the sofa at the coffee table and I've got my green tea with me. I've got whatever I'm reading at the time, but absolutely no work. So there's enough space that I can have separate. Almost like separate lives, really.

[Matt Gibbard]

So interesting.

[Nigel Slater]

It's really important. Otherwise I feel I never stop. And that thing that never leaves or has never left me, that thing of being a freelance. So you're always worried if you're not working. You feel you constantly do have to work because for some reason you think the phone's going to stop ringing. It hasn't, but fortunately. But it may do. So there is this constant sort of need really to think that you're working. But that lovely moment when you know you're not.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

You can just shut it off, close the door, come into a separate space.

[Matt Gibbard]

So we had a question about this. Susanna Martinez asked how do you get into the mood to write so beautifully about food? Do you listen to music? So what's your process for writing?

[Nigel Slater]

Lovely thing to say. I. So some of it is because it's a weekly column over sort of 30 odd years, it becomes just part of the rhythm of your life. And I know that come hell or high water, I have got to have three recipes and a story to go with it to hand in on a Tuesday morning. And if I don't, I'll lose my job. And I never forget that. So that becomes. I'm always thinking when I'm cooking, do I want this recipe to be. To be the story of the week or will it be tomorrow's? Or was it yesterday's? And that becomes part of my life. So I can't ever remember looking at the screen and thinking, what the hell do I write about today? You know, there's always something there. I've got a little squirrel store in my head of ideas and recipes. Music. Sadly, music tends to muddy the waters for me when I'm trying to write. And I wished it didn't because I know a lot of writers who have music on in the background. I find it interferes. So music becomes something I do, I listen to when I'm relaxing. I really wish I could have it on the background when I'm cooking. It's okay, actually. But putting words onto a screen or words onto paper, just too much going on. My head can't take it. And I've never loved music at that moment. Sorry. At that level where you can't quite hear it, I've either got to be listening to it or it's got to be off.

[Matt Gibbard]

So it's a kind of active pursuit, in a way, is what you're Saying, yes, absolutely.

[Nigel Slater]

And I really do enjoy listening to music. I just don't want it burbling away in the background. As I said, the writing has become so much part of my life that I never have to think that I've got to write something. It's like I just know that, yeah, in between 8:00 and 12:00 midday, I've got to sit at my desk and enjoy it and love it. The process very often involves notebooks, so I will go back over the week. Often in the middle of writing, I'll have to get up and go and test a recipe. I think partly this is why I live where I do, because I'm so close to the shops I can suddenly run out and get all the ingredients. It's funny, it has just become so part of what I do. Cooking and writing. I never think of a day without. It's not often I don't write.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, so it sounds like you're Quite disciplined. Where 8 till 12 is your slot, is that right?

[Nigel Slater]

Oh, absolutely. So I wake up at 5:30 each morning. I have about five and a half hours sleep. I wished I could have longer, but I can't.

[Matt Gibbard]

Why don't you?

[Nigel Slater]

I go to bed at night and I'm out in seconds. I mean, I go straight out to sleep. I just can't. I can't sleep any longer than about five and a half hours. I just wake up and when I'm awake I want to be up. I can't lie in bed, I can't. I just can't do it. I've got to be up. And also the clock's ticking at my age, so you make the most of it. But I'm up well before six every day. There is a brief moment when there is coffee in front of me and nothing interferes with that coffee. You could phone me and tell me that the world was ending in 20 minutes and I'd say, tough. I'm having my coffee, mate. You know, that's it. I have to have that moment. It's my little heart starter. And then there is breakfast. So breakfast is quite serious. There is always yogurt, there is always birch muesli, there is always fruit. I take my time over it and there is more coffee. And then I read a book, whatever book I'm reading, whatever novel I'm reading, not cookbooks, whatever novel I'm looking at, I will read that probably for about half an hour or so.

[Matt Gibbard]

Where will you do that?

[Nigel Slater]

In the kitchen.

[Matt Gibbard]

In the kitchen?

[Nigel Slater]

In the kitchen with my Coffee. And very often I'm eating breakfast as I'm reading and then I go upstairs and I start work. I never really right where I have breakfast. I always go in into another room. They will be tea made. Very often I don't eat at my desk very much. Kind of gets in the way really. Crumbs in your keyboard. It's not ideal, but there is a very solid patch in the day. There is a daily ritual of writing, of getting things down on screen or on paper that is pretty much unshakable. And I know that what I write in the morning before lunch is the best writing I'm going to do all day. After that it all goes downhill. And whether it's that my batteries have run out or I don't quite know. But in the afternoon, nothing is ever as good. Very often when I write something in the afternoon, the next day I go back and rewrite it because I seem to have lost my whatever, you know, sometimes I can take a walk around the garden and it inspires me and I can get my, my head focused back into what I'm doing when I walk back into the room. But sometimes not. I end up thinking I'll sweep the leaves up or something.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I think most people that write would. Would say something similar about that sort of virginal mindset you have in the morning. The only bit that surprises me about what you said is the, the reading a novel, you know, for half an hour or so before you start. That's really fascinating. So what. Why do you think you do that? What's that doing for your. For your brain before you start?

[Nigel Slater]

If I don't read in the morning, I know I won't find time to do it for the rest of the day.

[Matt Gibbard]

Okay.

[Nigel Slater]

And if I try and read in the evening, I will do about three pages and then I've nodded off and lost my place. It's why I watch the same television programs over and over again. Because I never get to the end. I never found out who did it or what happened, you know, because I do. I tend to be either doing things or I'm asleep when I sit down. I do very often dose doze off reading a book. As I say, it's the only time that I can guarantee that I will be able to in my day. Also, it's that fairly quiet space in between 7:00 and 8:00 when not a lot happens really. Maybe the postman, if he's, you know, feels like arriving early, will. But generally Nothing much happens. And it's a really good time to have a book. A book in your hand. I'm not sure that it alters the way I write or it alters my day in any way. It's just that there's so many books and there's so little time to read.

[Matt Gibbard]

Them, you know, and so cooking. So you said that breakfast is quite a ritual. What about lunch and dinner?

[Nigel Slater]

It changes. So sometimes my biggest meal of the day will be lunchtime. I'm actually. I actually sleep better if I eat a larger meal during the day and then eat less in the evening. And I can't eat late at night anymore. I find I wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning buzzing with energy. Sometimes it will be just a salad or a sandwich at lunch. Other times, that is my main meal, particularly if I'm testing a recipe. It works to sort of start at round about 12 or 1 and then eat at 2 or 3. The rituals that have started my day, they tend to slack off a little bit as the day goes on, so there isn't an absolute set pattern. I do stop for a cup of tea and a slice of cake around about 4:00 because that's where my energy starts to sort of ebb away. And I need something also in the evening if someone else is around. If someone else is here. Generally, people prefer an evening to eat in the evening. And it's also nice because you finished your work for the day so you can relax. You're not worried about, oh, I've got to do this or do that. But there isn't. There isn't a big pattern about eating after, you know, after about 1:00.

[Matt Gibbard]

And when we were in the kitchen earlier on, you said that you don't really have people around to eat here, is that right? Very often? Not.

[Nigel Slater]

Not very often, no. I found that this is quite typical of other people in the cookery world, this idea that anybody who writes about food and cookery is actually spending their entire life having dinner parties. I'd rather have surgery than attend a dinner party or certainly give one. If friends come round for supper and you're sitting in the kitchen and you put one big dish on the table and everyone's tucking in and helping themselves and pouring themselves more wine, I'm a very happy man. But a sort of formal dinner party, Please God, no. I can't bear them.

[Matt Gibbard]

Do you ever get an invite then?

[Nigel Slater]

I used to, yeah. And then. And then they realize that I sit there with this obvious expression of why have you sat me by this person? No, but the conversation across the other side of the table is always more interesting than the one. Than the one you're having. Eavesdropping is always much more fun. I said no, Nobody invites me anymore because I either become almost like take over and become a bit precocious and a bit boisterous, or I go into a black hole and don't say anything. And it's totally unpredictable. It depends on the other people around the table. So it's best for me just not to go, really, and just have friends around for something to eat. If James or somebody else is here. We'll always eat in the evening and very often we'll cook together. It's just such a lovely thing, sharing a kitchen. I guess it's because I sort of trained with other people cooking. I quite enjoy cooking with other people. It's quite fun.

[Matt Gibbard]

I read somewhere that you said that there's a sort of symbolic significance of cooking a meal for somebody else.

[Nigel Slater]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Talk me through that.

[Nigel Slater]

Putting food that you have made in front of somebody, making somebody something to eat, it just is the most heartwarming thing. It gives a point to my day. It makes me realize that it's not all about a job and, you know, putting food in. Into print. It's about actually putting food in front of somebody that they will eat. And I do love sharing food. I love, you know, I'm very happy in a restaurant. I quite like restaurant, being in a restaurant at a restaurant table with somebody, but making something for someone to eat and hopefully getting it right, that they really will enjoy it. I've always had a buzz. I've always got a buzz out of that. When before I cooked, I was a waiter. And there is that moment when you're taking food out of a kitchen and you're going to put it down and someone's going to eat it and hopefully have a good time with it. You're going to make their day better that I've always loved and I've always enjoyed. And when people stop me in the street, as they do very often, actually, and there's that moment when they say, oh, we made your such and such last night. And I'm waiting for the bomb to drop like that it didn't work or whatever. When they tell me what they've made and why they made it and who they shared it with, it's just the biggest buzz. It's like having my batteries put on charge that I've written a recipe that somebody has actually made for Somebody else and it's made their evening or it's, you know, even just fed them. It is an utterly generous, joyous, wonderful thing. And I love it when people tell me about that.

[Matt Gibbard]

That's fab. What do you think that this house smells like? Because that's another of the senses. Every building is defined by its smell, in a way. Have you thought about that? Can you smell it as you come in?

[Nigel Slater]

When I walk into somebody's house, it's the first thing that hits me is the smell of a house. And I do not quite know why. People tell me that the house smells. Smells lovely when they walk in. Lots of people say it, and it's not that I even try, really. It just happens. Some places smell good immediately. Japanese homes smell very good, actually. Old houses often do. Old buildings often do. Churches, cathedrals, libraries. And for me, it's very, very important. And that might be because I remember, you know, my earliest memories of walking into home and mum had been baking and so I. I have that smell. And I have been really lucky, actually, because I've been. I've. I've been collaborating with the British perfume maker Lynn Harris over a set of products that make your home smell wonderful. And obviously the magic is hers because she. She knows how to do it. But between us, we came up with something that actually smells like this house, or I hope it. I hope it does. We took my favorite perfumes, so things like frankincense and vetiver and juniper and put them together with lots of other things, many of which Lin's kept to herself, but lots and lots of things. Yes. And so there is a box of incense that has been made for us by the oldest sort of incense maker in Kyoto, which, when you burn it, I feel it does smell like this house. There's a scented candle that Lyn has done. She's worked her magic on that. She feels smells like this house when she arrived and I'd been baking and it was a ginger cake. So there is the slight spiciness of the ginger cake and all the backnote ingredients, the cinnamon and everything in there and the vanilla. And she's magically put it into a. Into a candle. Yes. And there's soap as well. And I hope they will make people's homes smell lovely. And the soap that when they wash their hands there. It's a limited edition of products that I just am so happy about. I've. Sometimes you're taken out of your comfort zone and like when we were doing toast as a play, I knew nothing about theatrical world. And I was suddenly dropped into it and saw how it worked. And it was a hugely rewarding experience for me. And it's been the same with working with Lynn and working with perfume and working with smells. That there is something very special there. You can alter your day, you can alter your life with a wonderful perfume. I'm actually wearing a perfume, wearing a cologne that is mine. It's a reworking of her perfume called Ink that I've worn for years. And we've reworked it, we've boosted the ingredients in it that I particularly like and I feel are my signature smell or smell of my home. A lot of what works for me about a building is not necessarily the architecture, although I can appreciate it. It's not necessarily the furniture that's in there or the way somebody lives. It is how it smells when you walk in. And immediately, you know, this is a good place. And that's what I hope my house smells of. That. You can't pin it down. You can't say it's a scented candle or it's a room spray or it's a particular vase of lilies or something. It's an amalgamation of everything. Of the furniture off the floor, of hopefully a little bit of the garden, a little bit of my cooking. Maybe it all works to become part of that home and that house.

[Matt Gibbard]

Not a brilliant answer. I get cinnamon from it.

[Nigel Slater]

Do you?

[Matt Gibbard]

Yes, I do.

[Nigel Slater]

That's really interesting. I'm glad you say that. Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

Undercurrent of cinnamon. It's definitely. There's definitely a sweetness to the smell here.

[Nigel Slater]

I think it might be that Japanese cabinet next to us, because that. I've always thought that smelled a bit of cinnamon. Right. I saw it in Tokyo. I wanted somewhere to put those little. Those little pieces of ceramics that I couldn't leave lying around the house where they did actually, for once, need to be in a glass box. And I was in Tokyo and I just saw and smelled that cabinet, and I thought, so some of it may come from that. Yeah. Because wood does smell differently, as you know, not necessarily just the polish that you put on it. The wood does smell different.

[Matt Gibbard]

So when you are looking at something and considering whether you could live with it, whether it's a Japanese cabinet or Edmond Duval artwork or whatever it might be. What are you. What are you thinking? How is it deserving of a place in the home for you?

[Nigel Slater]

Very good question. Because I don't like to make mistakes, and I have done. I think we all have got something in our home that we've had to hide in a cupboard. Sometimes it'll be a gift, but very often it's something that we've chosen ourselves and then realized isn't, isn't right. I buy something for a specific space. So if I've got a table and I've been looking for the right bowl to go on that table, or I've got maybe a shadowy corner and I want the right painting to go there, then I will do without it for a long time until I spot it and think that's the one. I'm very happy to have a bare wall or to have. I didn't have carpets and rugs on the floor for ages because I couldn't find the ones I wanted. And then gradually you spot them and you think, that's it. I take my time. But it's nearly always, is this the right thing for that space? Rather than, oh, I like that. I wonder where I'll put it. I don't like to buy like that and I do take my time. It's why I'm not very good at auctions, because I need to sleep on things. My theory is if I spot something and I like it, I go home, I sleep, and if it gets to mid morning the next day and I haven't thought about that thing, I don't want it, I don't need it. Whereas if I wake up and my first thought is that bowl, that book, that vase, that cabinet, if that's my waking thought, then I know it's right.

[Matt Gibbard]

I do exactly the same thing. I love that Grace Alexander said, where is his stuff? Life, particularly cooking and writing, comes with such detritus. And I always wonder whether everything is just hidden for photo shoots or whether Nigel is ruthless enough to live a life free of clutter in a rather Japanese manner. What happens if we open the cupboards?

[Nigel Slater]

You can open my cupboards. I live this uncluttered life partly because I'm actually quite uncomfortable in cluttered surroundings.

[Matt Gibbard]

Why is that?

[Nigel Slater]

I can't breathe. I feel it produces a very claustrophobic feeling of claustrophobia in me. So I like also things to have their place. I want to know where to find things. So, yes, I do live in a very spare style. There's not a lot of. Not a lot of stuff. That said, that question is absolutely spot on because, yes, there is a room of shite. It's at the top of the. It's at the top of the house and it is. Yeah, you literally have to clamber over, over a discarded chair. That doesn't really work. And that I haven't managed to get rid of in order to get to things. Of course there is, and I have to say, it is the same in many Japanese homes as well. I've been to a few where you've peeped inside the cupboard and it's like, oh, that's where your life really is.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

But I genuinely don't like clutter, I don't like muddle, I don't like not knowing where things are. I need to know that when I open a drawer, that is where the bottle opener is. I don't want to spend 30 minutes of my life finding the bottle opener. I need to know where things are. And also, in a house of 4,000 square feet, you really do need to know where the corkscrew is, because otherwise you spend a lot of time. Or your keys, your house keys. So although it seems as if I have a bit of a problem because I insist everything goes back in the right place, it's actually purely practical. I know where my wallet is. I need to.

[Matt Gibbard]

So Jamie Harris asked something quite similar, which is whether you have any photographs anywhere or do you. I know you've got sort of painted portraits, so are they, in a way, your family portraits by proxy.

[Nigel Slater]

So I wish I'd got photographs. There's very few of me. Some disappeared in the fire, some disappeared to the step side, the step side of my family. They've got them and I presumably had a ceremonial bonfire with them. There is also the fact that nowadays you. Your photograph album tends to be on your phone, so there are very few photographs. When we were trying to put together an illustrated version of Toast, I said, there isn't anything. There's like two photographs and one of those I don't really want on the COVID Jeans were too tight. 19, 19, 1980. But I rely on, to a certain extent, on. On photographs to put together together a nostalgic story. Certainly if you're writing about your past, you do those photographs, but there's not. There's not many of them. A few years ago I realized that I've got two fireplaces downstairs that I wanted a couple of paintings to go over. And one day I spotted them and I went into the gallery and it was a big purchase. I mean, it was a big, you know, scary, scary purchase. And I said, look, I'm a little bit scared to just buy these and that lovely thing where they say, take them home, take them for the weekend, live with them, and then you're coming home in a. In a cab with two really expensive Paintings, thinking, did they even take my address? You know, And I hung, hung them on the wall and I realized immediately they were, you know, art dealers are no fools when they say, take it home and live with it. They know that they worked a man and a woman opposite each other. Although I've put them the wrong way around initially, they have their backs to each other, which is wrong. I've got them right now. I lived with them for a couple of years and then one day I realized that the woman had actually got something of my mother. That rather genteel, very calm, almost graceful look to her. And I thought, you know, that's a bit like Mum. And then I looked to the other fireplace and that really was my dad. Everything, the look, the jowls, the beard, everything, that was my dad. And I thought, that's it. I bought my mum and dad. So not having the sort of family where we had family portraits handed down, there they were, mum and dad. And I'd unconsciously furnished my home with a picture of them.

[Matt Gibbard]

Love that. How would you describe this current stage of life that you're in at the moment? I mean, you just talked about your parents there. You obviously had a pretty traumatic childhood. Partly. Where is your happiness level now, do you think?

[Nigel Slater]

Off the scale. I am so happy. There's a patch where I was feeling a bit guilty about it. Should I be, you know, should I feel this. Happy things that I was worried about because as a freelancer, you always think the phone's going to stop ringing. I hadn't at one point a few years ago even found the right home. I wasn't sure this was the right place to be. I don't particularly think of it as forever home because it probably won't be. Why won't it be in my dreams? I would quite like to start another life, maybe something else good elsewhere. On a practical level, I may not be able to afford it because it's quite expensive house to run. It's got four separate heating systems, or at least one of which is broken down at some point or another. Yeah, it cost a lot of money to run the house. But also I like the idea of maybe downsizing or at least having a very different life. I would like a bigger garden. This is only 35 meters and is a lot smaller than it looks on, on photographs. So, yeah, I've run out of space. There isn't another inch to put a plant. But no, I mean, I'm in a really good. A really good place right now. Have been for some, for some time.

[Matt Gibbard]

I don't want to embarrass you, but I did.

[Nigel Slater]

You clearly do. As you're going to ask the question.

[Matt Gibbard]

I'm going to embarrass you because I did conduct a very small poll about your age. I know this is a bit indiscreet to say, but. Yeah, I was interested to know what people, how old people thought that you were. And I would say the mean average was sort of 55 to 58. Now, I think people will be shocked to know your real age, which I think is 68. Is that right?

[Nigel Slater]

I'm almost 70. Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

I mean that. That blows my mind, I have to say, and I think a lot of people will be.

[Nigel Slater]

Thank you.

[Matt Gibbard]

Very surprised by that, I really do.

[Nigel Slater]

Well, that's made my day.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, it's not just. I don't mean to embarrass you. It's not just the way that you. You look, but it's also. Yeah, it's. It's the way that you are. It's your sensibility. You do feel. I suppose I asked the question about your happiness because it feels to me like you're really in a. You're having a flowering, you know, that's how it feels as, as an outsider.

[Nigel Slater]

I call her a deflowering.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah, but.

[Matt Gibbard]

But, you know, like, is there something that comes with, you know, reaching a certain point in your life where you just think, oh, I don't really care, I'm just going to be myself and not worry about it? Is there something of that in there?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes. I don't care too much about what other people think, really. People who follow what I do and people who buy my books and read my columns. Yes, I do care about whether I've got something right, whether they're enjoying something. But when people don't like me or don't like what I do, I really couldn't give a monkeys. I honestly don't. I can't remember where it was a few weeks ago. Somebody was writing in a magazine about. They've watched dinner parties sort of implode at the very mention of my name because half the table loves what I do and half the table hates it. And I love that. The idea that I'm not actually so boring that everybody likes me or whatever, or indeed that everybody. Everybody hates me. But I genuinely don't worry too much about what people think, which is actually quite a useful. You can just get on with your life then, if you're not worried about. What if somebody doesn't like what you wear or whatever. I suppose I've reached a point where I could do other things. And that's a very freeing idea that I could say, well, I've written memoirs and essays and I've written cookbooks. Maybe I could write something else. Maybe I could write a screenplay or whatever. I could do something completely different. Or I could just be a gardener. I don't have the horticultural background that I wished I had. I've mostly learned gardening the hard way, the expensive way, the heartbreaking way. But I feel I know quite a lot, A lot. Now I have a gardening column, Gardens Illustrated. I mean, I do think that there are opportunities now that maybe I would have been scared to explore before. And also at this age, does it really matter if I get something wrong or make a mistake now? It wouldn't. It would just, you know.

[Matt Gibbard]

But you're obviously a perfectionist, aren't you? That's. You can see that in everything that you do. I mean, you've described yourself as shy, haven't you? Would you say? Of course.

[Nigel Slater]

Yes, very shy.

[Matt Gibbard]

What does that word mean to you? How are you shy?

[Nigel Slater]

It means missed opportunities. It's when you spot somebody in the street whose books you've read or television programs you've watched, or somebody who has made the clothes you wear, and you. I want to go and say hello, you've done something wonderful. Because I wear your clothes all the time. They're part of my life. Or I read your book and it changed my life, or whatever. And because I'm shy, I don't do that. And then the next day, I think, why didn't I go and say hello to that. That person? Why didn't I let them know? Because people do it to me all the time, and I cherish it. I love it when people say, say hello, because it makes me think I'm actually getting something right. And also, if you haven't got a couple of minutes in your day to say hello to somebody, then you're obviously doing the, you know, doing the wrong job. So what did you ask me? What was the question?

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, the question was. The question was.

[Nigel Slater]

Oh, shy.

[Matt Gibbard]

Shyness.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah, absolutely. It is. Missed opportunities. You're always thinking, what if there's a moment when I struggle with crowds, I'm not good. Which means I've missed out a lot of good music because I don't like crowded festivals and things. I can't handle them.

[Matt Gibbard]

What happens to you in crowds?

[Nigel Slater]

I need to get out. I would panic and push my way through the crowd, even sharing a lift with lots of people. I mean, I don't. Not in the Anna Winter sense of nobody else allows you in the lift. But I do mean that I don't like being hemmed in. When I walk into a building, I walk into somebody's house, the first thing I do is look for the exit. I need to know how to get out of a situation or a space. Nothing's going to happen, but I need to know that I can get out. And if I can't. It's like when you're having a conversation with somebody, say if you go to a book launch or an opening or something, and you're with somebody that you can't get away from. That is my absolute hell. I can't. I can't find my exit. I need to be able to get out.

[Matt Gibbard]

Did you get vertigo in that situation?

[Nigel Slater]

Oh, it's so weird. I actually don't get vertigo. What I have is a form of vertigo, which is a fear of falling. So for instance, every department store in London, I know the backstairs to all of them because I don't. I can't use the escalators. I haven't used a long escalator, probably for about 30 years at least. I can't use the underground.

[Matt Gibbard]

And what is it about escalators?

[Nigel Slater]

It's falling.

[Matt Gibbard]

Falling.

[Nigel Slater]

It's falling. I fell over a couple of years ago, very badly. I just missed my footing, tripped over. I got my hands in my pockets, lovely big coat and face blanched bang onto the pavement. Actually hurt myself quite badly. I mean, it was an ambulance job. I mean, I was blood everywhere and broken glasses and God knows what. And the nurse who came rushing out thought I'd actually broken my cheekbones. I mean, she was. It was not a good moment of my life, but it was the terror of falling. And there's a name for it which is escaping me, but there is actually a name for not just a fear of heights, but a fear of falling, even if it's down one step. So vertigo? No, I actually quite like being up high and looking down. But if I was in a situation where I couldn't get out, I'd have a good old fashioned anxiety attack, a good old fashioned panic. That thing where you can't hear what the person who is talking to you is saying, but you can hear a conversation six people away, that weird thing and you lose focus and you do feel you need to hold onto something. I mean, I've had anxiety attacks for years and I'm mostly over them, but every now and again they come back when I'm Trapped.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. So they're environmental, really.

[Nigel Slater]

They are very much environmental. And I have to say, those architects who, when they design a building and they do not consider. There are some people who cannot travel on that escalator that goes on forever, who aren't comfortable in a glass lift, they do need that back staircase. They do need a banister to hold on. I mean, whoever moved handrails, you know, I know minimalist interior designers and architects. Oh, we don't need a handrail, do we? And there's me having to go down on my bottom because I can't, you know, I'm scared of falling. So, yeah, I need a. I do need a way out sometimes, so.

[Matt Gibbard]

Interesting. So my next book is going to be about exactly this subject, because I. I've had panic attacks since I was 11 and they're very environmental.

[Nigel Slater]

Yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

So when I was at university, I did four years of study where I didn't go into a lecture theater because I. I can't handle lecture theaters because there's no way. There's no way out.

[Nigel Slater]

No.

[Matt Gibbard]

Without going down the stairs to the front, past the lecturer and out the door. So it's exactly what you're describing. It's mindless design. And it's. So. Much of the world, I think, is not designed with sensitive people in mind, you know, that's what I think. Have you heard the term highly sensitive person?

[Nigel Slater]

No.

[Matt Gibbard]

So there's an American psychologist called Elaine Aaron, and she came up with this term, the HSP, and she reckons it's about 20% of the population, are a highly sensitive person, and that those people, and I'm definitely one of them, it sounds like you are as well, are more attuned to their surroundings than other people are. Sights, sounds, smells. For me, it's very acoustic. So what you describe about being able to hear someone else's conversation further away, but not your own. I think it really resonates with me a lot that sometimes you walk into a space and the sound is too resonant, isn't it?

[Nigel Slater]

Yes.

[Matt Gibbard]

And you know that that's not going to work for you.

[Nigel Slater]

There is a department store in Knightsbridge that has got sort of marble floors and high ceilings in both the food hall and the perfume rooms. I almost need a zimmer frame to get in there. I have to hold on to something. Somebody said if you close your eyes, it sounds like a swimming pool, but I'm sure it is true. It is terrifying completely. There are spaces that I know I do not go into and they're not Always empty spaces or even large spaces. They're not always crowded spaces, they're just wrong spaces. Very often it will be because I can't find an exit or there's nothing that I might need to hold on to. Very often it will be a space that. Where there's nothing comfortable, I need somewhere comfy to perch or to lean or to sit. And that has not been considered because it gets in the way of that designer's ethics. It gets in the way of what he wants to do to a building. He or she is not considering that. Many, many people need a space in which they are truly comfortable. Otherwise they're in a very difficult space and their head is swimming and they think that they're going to fall over. You don't fall over, but you think you're going to, and that's terrifying. You think suddenly, in front of everybody, you're going to faint on the floor. It doesn't happen actually. Anxiety attack stops. Some mechanism comes in, and that doesn't actually happen to you.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yes, you're almost too full of adrenaline to actually fall on the floor, but it makes you think you will.

[Nigel Slater]

That's right. But you're constantly looking for that way out. And I do think it's not considered as much as it should be when people are designing public. Public spaces really is. We need somewhere to sit. We really do need somewhere to sit.

[Matt Gibbard]

You know, But I think. I think, to expand on that, what I find fascinating is that I think a lot of people haven't even considered it in relation to their home environment. So actually, if you are someone that isn't necessarily so attuned to an interior and environment, acoustics, visual or so on, you perhaps haven't thought about how your home can work for you in that respect. I mean, it seems to me, you know, having come in here, this is a sort of anchor point for you, isn't it? In a way, in the world. That's what. That's what a home is. It's. I can see that it's. It's a place that you can return to and it's the safe place to be.

[Nigel Slater]

It is absolutely my safe space. I close that door and I can do what I want. I can do anything. And I feel I've never had a panic attack in my home. And not just this one, any previous home. I know every safe corner, every inch of this building I feel safe in, and I hope other people do, too. And there are spaces that are just wrong where you need to go to. One of my least favorite My most uncomfortable places are when you walk into a room where there's going to be a meeting and you're all sitting around a table that's slightly too big. So everybody has too much space either side of them. And I don't feel comfy in that situation. Also, I don't like boardrooms anyway. I don't like that boardroom feeling. I'm much happier around her. Just a few of you pulling a chair up and sitting, chatting. I'm much more comfortable. But I've never really thought about it with my house. It just evolved. I didn't sit down and think, I've got to have a quiet space and I've got to have a busy space. It just. I realized where it was in the house that was going to be the quiet space. So it's at the back of the house where my most comfy chairs are because it's quiet, it's away from the road. But it took a while. I didn't plan it. I just thought, you know what, this is actually a good space to sit and read a book because I don't hear the buses and I don't hear people's conversations when they walk past the window. I put my desk somewhere where I can see what's going on. I don't want to be in a little vacuum, locked away to write. That said, I can't write like some people can in a cafe. I'm rather jealous of those people who can bring their laptop and just sit there and write because I can't. I get too distracted.

[Matt Gibbard]

Well, there's too much stimulation, isn't it?

[Nigel Slater]

There's too much stimulation. Sometimes I have to go to my publishers in their vast open plan offices and apart from the fact that I do get a bit of an anxiety attack there, I say, how do you work? How are you not constantly looking at what other people are doing and when they have visitors or guests that you're listening to what they're saying rather than what you're doing? I find that quite difficult.

[Matt Gibbard]

I'm the same. I've never had that feeling of anxiety within the home before.

[Nigel Slater]

Then you've got it right.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah. But it also tells me that it's sort of the most important thing that we have, you know, outside of our family and our friends. I can't think of anything for me that provides the same kind of mental stability stimulation as well. It's the backdrop to everything, isn't it? I think we spend two thirds of our waking lives under the same roof.

[Nigel Slater]

I love hotels and I Love travel. And I am rarely happier than on board a plane.

[Matt Gibbard]

Why is that?

[Nigel Slater]

Oh, I love flying. No emails, no texts, no phone calls. Somebody says, when would you like your dinner? Oh, I just. Honestly, it's just absolute heaven.

[Matt Gibbard]

So it sounds like you're in first class there, Nigel.

[Nigel Slater]

I'm in seat 2A. I don't have anybody next to me. No, not at all. I. Well, maybe, but I. It's my little luxury. No, generally I love being away and traveling and hotel rooms. I'm so happy in a hotel room. But there is that moment when I open my front door, walk inside and close it and I feel not just safe, but I feel I'm in the best place I could ever be. And that place is home. It's just such a good place.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yep. Bring a tear to my eye with that. I mean, because of that, Nigel, you know, I think that the most generous thing you can do is invite us in here today and I've really, really appreciated it.

[Nigel Slater]

It's been an absolute pleasure.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thank you.

[Nigel Slater]

You're very hastral, you're very well trained, aren't you? Your whole team. I love the fact that you asked me whether you needed to have a coaster to put your glass down. The answer was no, you didn't.

[Matt Gibbard]

I can't believe you didn't. This oak worked up as well.

[Nigel Slater]

No, not at all. No. Because if you make a mark on that table, then it's just another bit of its life. It's another little mark that it's lived and it's welcomed somebody and no, it's absolutely fine. But no, I know you're a house trained team. I could tell.

[Matt Gibbard]

All the best. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

[Nigel Slater]

It's a pleasure having you here.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thank you.

[Nigel Slater]

Really is.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thanks so much to Nigel for hosting us so generously at his house and thanks to all of you for listening in today. Thank you as well to everyone who submitted questions for today's podcast. I tried to get through as many of them as I could, but to be honest, I could have talked Nigel for about a week and still had so many burning things I wanted to ask him. So it wasn't easy. Soon we'll post up on Instagram the details of our next guest. It's going to be a really good one again. So do follow us hemodern House or my personal account, matgibard and you can ask any burning questions you might have on there. Reviews obviously make a big difference to us. I always hate having to ask this, but if you can spare a second to leave us a quick review. We would really appreciate that this episode was produced by Laconic Collective with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks so much for being here. It's really lovely to know that so many people enjoy this podcast and we certainly have a huge amount of fun making it. Talk to you on the next one, and bye for now.