Why Comfort Isn't Always Good for Us | With Architect Stefan Behling

Summary

Episode Summary: "Why Comfort Isn't Always Good for Us"

Podcast: Homing
Host: Matt Gibberd
Guest: Stefan Behling (Senior Partner, Foster + Partners)
Date: July 9, 2026

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Overview

In this thought-provoking conversation, Matt Gibberd sits down with renowned architect Stefan Behling to discuss the psychological and sensory dimensions of ‘home.’ Behling challenges contemporary ideas of comfort, drawing on over 30 years of architectural practice with projects spanning Apple Park in California to habitats for NASA on Mars. The discussion explores why constant comfort isn’t ideal for human wellbeing, how our environments shape our senses and emotions, and practical insights into making our living spaces more nourishing—physically and psychologically.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining ‘Home’: Personal, Not Performative

• [01:22] Stefan on Home:
  • Home is about the people you love first, not the décor or the image you project.
  • Over time, he’s come to value privacy and authenticity over outward shows of status:

    “The house should just be for your loved ones, your family, yourself... The older I get, the more I think the role of the home is far more psychological than it is physiological or trying to look like a magazine.” (03:25, Stefan)

Psychological Support of Home

• His children, though they didn’t grow up in his current house, gravitate to it for its welcoming feeling and beautiful, warm light, showing how a well-designed space can offer a ‘secure base’ even across generations. [04:42]

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2. The Senses and Modern Buildings

• Modernism & Captive Humans

  • Many office buildings separate us from nature and reduce humans to a ‘number on a desk’, likening poor environments to “chicken farming” or “humans in captivity.” (07:41, Stefan)
  • The best environments stimulate all senses—light, sound, smell, touch—mirroring the varied experience of being in nature.

• Natural Stimulation & Design

  • Environments should offer subtle, natural variety—“oscillation”—instead of uniformity or constancy.
  • Varied light, air, scents, and sounds prevent sensory starvation and promote wellbeing:

    “If you're on a bicycle and I weld your steering in one position, you can't cycle.” (21:05, Stefan)

  • This concept is termed “alliesthesia”—our comfort is best supported by gentle changes, not stasis.

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3. Control, Freedom & Wellbeing

• Giving People Choices

  • Psychological comfort comes from having control:

    “If you are free, if you have choices and you are in control, that will give you a positive feeling... As soon as you take it away, people feel stressed and trapped.” (14:42, Stefan)

• Environmental Stress

  • Everyday experiences—like hospitals, hotels, airplanes—often trigger bodily stress responses due to a lack of freedom or overstimulating or ‘flat’ environments. Tools like wider aisles and better exits in auditoriums demonstrate simple ways design can ease anxiety and grant people more agency. [17:21]

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4. Allaesthesia: The Science of Variable Comfort

• [18:55] Explanation of Allaesthesia
  • There is no perfect, constant comfort setting; it’s subtle variation that feels right—composition of light, temperature, airflow, sounds.
  • “...what you want is something that always goes slightly to the left, slightly to the right... It’s the non-constant. I would call it oscillating.” (18:56, Stefan)
  • This principle applies both in large offices and at home, challenging the ideal of “climate-controlled” or “always comfortable” environments.

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5. Practical Sensory Design in the Home

Ventilation

• Functional Sash Windows:
  • “Make sure that all your sash windows work really well… Cross-ventilation is fantastic for comfort. You want to be able to open them, adjust for the temperature. That’s freedom.” (23:13, Stefan)

Lighting

• Critique of Cheap LEDs:
  • “Cheap LED lights are almost as bad as junk food. The light has none of the solar spectrum.” (25:52, Stefan)
• Dim-to-Warm & Incandescent Bulbs:
  • Install ‘dim to warm’ LED lights to adjust both brightness and warmth for a natural transition from day to night.
  • Incandescent lights, though less energy-efficient, can provide ‘red light’ closely resembling fire or sunset, beneficial for evening relaxation.

“There is nutrition in light. If you actually think about it... food has nutrition, that is what our body needs. We do need the radiation.” (28:59, Stefan)

Acoustics

• The ‘sound’ of a home significantly impacts wellbeing.
  • “You can walk into a restaurant that looks great, but if the sound is wrong, you can’t relax. In the home, it’s the same; soft surfaces create coziness.” (30:07, Stefan)
  • Encourage variety: different acoustics in corridors vs. living spaces; rugs and soft furniture can easily transform sound quality.

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6. Homes in Extreme Environments: The Lesson from Space

• Design for NASA & Space Habitats

  • Working on Mars and lunar habitats, Stefan encountered the core human need for sensory and community connection—even in radically artificial conditions.
  • Astronauts miss “the smell of grass and the feel of earth”—a powerful reminder of what’s at stake when cut off from the natural world.
    “What do you miss from home? And they call planet Earth their home… the loneliness must be pretty extreme.” (37:05, Stefan)

• Can We Fake Home?

  • There’s skepticism about whether artificial environments (even highly engineered ones) can ever truly substitute for our earthy, sensory needs.

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7. Home as Planetary, Personal, and Political

• Identity & Belonging

  • The sense of home can extend from a single flat, to a community, to a whole planet.
    “...Brexit has dented my home belonging feelings… Your identity is somehow related to where you feel, whatever, attachment, belonging. And if people say, well, I have to break it to you, I don’t think you belong here, then what does that do with belonging?” (45:05, Stefan)

• Architect vs. Vernacular

  • True, lasting homes are often vernacular—built by people for themselves, not to impress or as investments. The tendency to design for others, or for resale, is a modern confusion.

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8. Universal Advice and Acknowledgement of Privilege

• [54:54] Final Insights & Reflection

  • Stefan is careful not to assume everyone can fundamentally change their living conditions; not everyone owns, or can afford, architectural interventions.
  • Small, Universal Changes:
    • Use warm LED bulbs or candles to transform the mood.
    • Use curtains/rugs/fabric to easily alter acoustics and comfort in small rented spaces.
    • Even small sensory shifts—opening a window, varying surfaces—can have outsized impact.

  “Lighting is one of the most important things of what your space looks like. Even if you put a candle on the table, the scruffiest place might actually feel quite homey.” (56:12, Stefan)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think the role of the home is far more psychological than it is physiological or trying to look like a magazine.” (03:25, Stefan)
• “If you're on a bicycle and I weld your steering in one position, you can't cycle.” (21:05, Stefan on oscillating comfort)
• “There is nutrition in light.” (28:59, Stefan)
• “Cheap LED lights are almost as bad as junk food.” (25:52, Stefan)
• “What do you miss from home? …the smell of grass and the feel of earth.” (37:05, Stefan, lessons from astronauts)
• “Your identity is somehow related to where you feel, whatever, attachment, belonging.” (45:05, Stefan)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:22] What “home” means to Stefan Behling
• [07:41] Modern workplaces as “human battery farms”
• [14:42] The link between environmental control and wellbeing
• [18:55] Allaesthesia—oscillating comfort vs. constancy
• [23:13] Practical sensory advice for homes: ventilation and lighting
• [25:52] Lighting and the problem with cheap LEDs
• [30:07] Acoustics in the home and sensory variety
• [34:29] Designing habitats for space, nature deprivation, and psychological effects
• [45:05] Identity, home, and belonging in a global world
• [54:54] Universal lessons, privileges, and small interventions for all
• [56:12] Final thoughts on sensory tuning and making any space feel more like home

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Tone & Approach

The tone is reflective, gentle, and often philosophical—emphasizing personal intuition over prescriptive advice. Stefan blends technical knowledge with humility, stressing the importance of designing not for show or resale, but for true psychological comfort and sensory nourishment.

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Useful for anyone considering how home environments—regardless of size or ownership—impact our sense of belonging, comfort, and wellbeing. Universal, practical takeaways are woven throughout: from lighting and ventilation to acoustics and the deep human need for nature and freedom.

Transcript

[A]

Hello there. Welcome back to Homing. Today's guest is the architect Stefan Belling. Stefan believes that many of today's buildings have turned us into what he calls humans in captivity. So they keep the temperature constant, they shut out the sounds and smells of the outside world, and I guess they misunderstand what it really means to be comfortable. As a senior partner at Foster and Partners, Stefan spent more than 30 years thinking about these ideas and applying them to his projects ranging from Apple park in California to habitats designed for NASA on Mars. In this conversation, we explore what the science of the senses can teach us about creating a home that genuinely supports our well being. We discuss why constant comfort isn't always good for us and what space travel can tell us about our need for nature. Stefan also explains why he believes that actual nutrition is in natural light and why cheap LED lights are the equivalent of junk food for the home. Here it is and I hope you enjoy listening.

[B]

Hi Stefan, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. I always ask the same question to start with, which is for you personally, how would you define the word home?

[C]

I think it's a very interesting question. I think the first thing I would probably say, home is where the people are that I love. I think it's people that probably do it first because I move around a lot and I think, yeah, coming home is where they are. And then if I go through where we live right now, it's. Yeah. That is obviously that is our home. It's safe, it's cozy, it's comfortable, it's. Yeah. Where you can just be who you are and let your hair down and just not pretend to be anything and just be yourself. That's probably home.

[B]

Yeah. Where do you live at the moment then?

[C]

In Battersea.

[B]

In Battersea. So if it's the place you can let your hair down and it's about safety and being yourself. Is it also a place where you care about the kind of outward display of home?

[C]

No, it's the opposite. It's interesting. I work in Battersea and we lived in Battersea for 37 years now. And I would even say Battersea is my home. It's the community there. But within that Battersea and within a few streets, I think we moved in four or five different locations. You know, I'm an architect, I enjoy. The process was different. We only bought a place very, very late in Life. So for 20 years we were renting and then we did it. And it's a very earthy house that is just for us. It doesn't Represent. I never, ever take clients there. It's just for family and friends. I think it almost takes a while until you get to the realization it's just for yourself. You could argue it's a very privileged setting. You can just do it exactly the way you want it without any need to represent or show off or be something. It's just for yourself.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Well, for the family.

[B]

Why do you think that's something that you sort of learn as you go along?

[C]

Because I think sometimes people in life, they believe they have to show something. Have a car that shows that you successful or that you made it or whatever it is. I think there's a lot of things in society that you do, even fashion, that you're trying to be something. Yeah. Then, you know, dress up to be something that is maybe more than you think you are. Like padded shoulders. My conclusion is the house should just be for, let's say, your loved ones, your family, yourself. I think the older I get, I think it's. The role of the home is far more psychological than it is physiological or trying to look like a magazine. It's like, what does your and the family's psyche feel is good for them? Do they find enjoyable, relaxing?

[B]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that, actually. Which is sort of actually the whole idea behind homing, to be honest. I think you've nailed it with that. So if it's a psychological thing, can you put some color around that? In what way for you, does your home support you and the family psychologically?

[C]

Well, I'll tell you an example that I think might be a hint. Our children are now 30, 25, 20, and they don't live at home anymore, but they come and visit us, which is fantastic. But they also come when we're not there, and they just want to be in the house. And they haven't even grown up in the house, so they have no memories of living in the house. But they go because they love the feeling. And they say it kind of makes them feel good and comfortable and protected. And the light is beautiful. And the daylight comes in, in the evening, it's super warm light. And they can actually just go and be in their place. But they just love to. To hang out. I mean, that's not a bad measure of. Does it actually work? Not just for us, does it actually work for them? It's a very banal hint, but as a nice place, makes me feel comfortable and happy. That's why I'm coming here. Say my children.

[B]

That's so interesting. I think. Yeah. I think psychologists would probably call it a secure base. Right. Which is the idea that we need that secure base to be able to go out into the world and then come back to the security of it. Yeah, it's really interesting. I want to ask you about the senses because I know this is your area. Let's deviate from the home slightly. Let's take a modern office building, for example, that you see in the city of London. Lots and lots of these glazed high rise office buildings. How do you think about those buildings in relation to the senses? And I know before you've talked about starving the senses somehow, but tell us about that.

[C]

I think I have to kind of go out a bit. We're all mammals and I think we're all craving to still be connected to nature. We're craving to be connected to people in our species, our family, loved ones, gorillas, hugging, touching each other. But I think nature is a deep thing we humans need and there are environments that take you more further and further away from nature. And I think modernism has a big role in this. And take your glass office building. I am probably not as far removed from nature. I mean, that's why I got into space and all of that world, you know, the extreme edges of being far away from nature and from home and home planet. But if you are in an office building, a lot of them are. The humans have just been reduced to like a number on a desk. And if I'm provocative and whatever. But it's like chicken farming. It's not that someone has tried to create the nicest, loveliest environment for you. It is just square meters, density, getting. How many people are we going to be able to squeeze into this building to do work? And I think it's a very unnatural environment.

[B]

That's so interesting.

[C]

In the bad ones. Yeah. I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of variations and some of buildings are fantastic. Yeah. You know, I don't want to generalize, but I mean in a provocative way. I think the bad ones are. It's almost degrading to humans.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

We're battery hens.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, sometimes when I'm on a roll, it's like we're humans in captivity and we have quite a good instinct. Again, by seeing animals in the wild, we get that, we watch David Attenborough and it's all beautiful. And then you see humans in captivity in a zoo or even more brutal farming conditions and you go, oh my God, that's terrible. How can you do this to these poor animals? So then you Go, so what is the right way, if they are in captivity, to at least give them a human environment? Discuss. And what is that? What does it mean, human environment, natural environment, they are indoors.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I'm not saying, well, they should all live and roam the fields or keep them all in Hyde Park. But I mean, that is the question. Yeah. And over that funny journey, I got to the senses, analyzing. What is it? What would you describe gives you a human environment?

[B]

Yeah. Well, what do you think those main ingredients are then?

[C]

It's a very, very big question, but I think if you started in the abstract, it is how does nature stimulate us when we're outside? I'm not avoiding your question, but if you go for a walk in Hyde park, if you go for a walk on a sunny day, you probably walk under trees and beautiful avenues. Go for a walk in St. James's park, dappled light on the floor, little breathe comes through. It's varied, it's interesting, it smells good. It actually in a way stimulates all your senses. It's your visual sense, it's your hearing or your bird song. Yes, of course I can give you bird song artificially through some loudspeakers and that's not what I mean. But I think we humans, instinctively, we do understand what feels good. Sit in a beer garden, a nice place in the shade, it's a lovely temperature. I don't want it too hot, I don't want it too cold. But if you have given me a breath, I can the temperature a bit higher because the breathe cools me down. I put my clothes on appropriate to the temperature. So that's what I would like in a building.

[B]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[C]

And then you go, okay, that's just, you know, it's a lot of talk. How do you really, really do it? And I would say I spend most of my professional life trying to do it. Yeah. And we were very super privileged. I mean, life is all about luck to work with amazing clients, whether it's Steve Jobs and Apple or Mike Bloomberg for the Bloomberg building. But the interesting thing is they all get it. And without even telling them, they are also on that level. So if you accept that the people in, let's just call it an office building are the most precious thing you have, they're actually the most expensive thing you have as an organization. And if you want them to do the best work of their lives, what conditions should you give them so they can just be the happiest, most comfortable, healthiest people and do the best work of Their life and then through that. I mean, I don't want to get too technical, but you can just literally go through all the different topics. How do you heat them, how do you cool them, how do you want the air movement, how do you give them the smell of fresh grass when they're in an office building, how do you get the right acoustics? I mean, all of it comes together and ultimately that's the task.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

You mentioned Steve Jobs there. I mean, what have you learned, do you think, through all of your work with Apple over the years? I mean, obviously a huge amount, but related to this thing about giving people who work there and of course giving people who visit as well, that experience of some kind of connection to their senses and the natural world.

[C]

Well, I can't talk about it too much, that's the problem of my job. But I think he was an extremely. He was a nature loving man. I remember the first brief with the whole project should be all about California. And he spoke about apricot trees. And the very first meeting, it's all about California. And in this part of California with orchards and apricot trees and the connection to nature and apricot trees being the most beautiful trees in the world. And it wasn't about square meters and how do you make people work harder? It was about the feeling and it was then about how can we connect people with nature and make them aware of it, walk through nature. Every day on their way into work, the parking structure was moved further away from the building. So people walked through the landscape. That was a very conscious decision and he was driving it. And then you're always aware of it and you know, hated fan noise. I don't want to hear any fans. And the healthiness of the air that comes in and the fact that you can have it coming in from the outside directly and it's natural and it's clean and you can smell the cut grass. I mean, a lot of these things, they sound superficial, but they're actually quite deep. And I was always amazed how incredibly deep and thoughtful he was. He was the opposite of what some people might expect, that, you know, he's a CEO of a technology company. But it was far more philosophical and psychological. Naturalist. Those were the discussions we would have.

[B]

As you were talking, the word control came into my head. So as an example, I stayed in a hotel in New York, don't know, a few months ago. And it's one of those places where you can't open the windows because they want you to use the air con. And I quite wanted to feel the sun on my face and I wanted to be able to hear the street down below. I could hear the people snoring in the bedroom next door, but I couldn't hear what's going on on the street. I had nowhere to put my suitcase. I had to kind of dance around it on the way to the loo. You know, we're all very familiar with this. What do you make of that link between control and your living environment?

[C]

I think if you start with the word freedom, you're free. Yeah. Come back to my maybe simplistic way of looking at where humans come from and, you know, we're animals, I'm free. Free comes immediately, comes with choices. And if I'm free to do, have it whatever way I want it, I want my window open or I want my window closed or I want it cooler, warmer, light on, you know, that is a quality that is just, I think it's again, it's instinct. It is what humans want. Happiness is overused, but it makes them happier, it makes them more content. It actually calms them down. Because whatever you want, you can adapt it. You don't have to sit in this condition. You know, you're not strapped in. I can move. And on everything, in every aspect of your life, if you are free, if you have choices and you are in control, that will give you a positive feeling. So as soon as you take it away from people in a long winded answer, people feel. Yeah, I think they feel stressed and trapped and strapped in and uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah. Do you feel like that? Are there certain environments in everyday life that you move through where you think this is somehow stressing my nervous system, this, you know, I'm having a bodily response to this environment. Do you feel that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like where?

[C]

All the time. I mean, I think it's all the time. Go to the dentist. Yeah. Go to anything medical. Go into a hospital. You're strapped in, you have pipes. I mean, I'm giving you extreme things, but I mean, I like extremes because maybe, you know, because it's not my mother tongue, it's like, I think it communicates better. I get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's strapped in. Even in the aircraft, when you take off and you have to strap yourself in and buckle up, you go, okay, this is how it's going to be, at least for this period. I think there are hundreds of examples and hotels are beautiful. That's the interesting thing with humans. I wasn't there, but I know exactly. I can feel the feeling that you're describing in the hotel room.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I had it hundreds of times in my life. Yeah, yeah. And everyone. I think everyone gets it.

[B]

Yeah. Some of us are more sensitive to our environment than others, of course. What do you make of this? So I've always had a thing about sitting in the middle of a row in a theater, cinema, lecture theater, so on, same. Do you have that as well? So again, it's about freedom, isn't it? That word freedom that you say. What's the design solution to that?

[C]

I think those are always dangerous questions because I'll say, I'll give you wider aisles so you can get out easier and don't have to. To ask everyone in the road to get up so you can go. And funny enough, we've done it. I've done lots of auditoriums because this conversation is, again, such a lovely human thing. I think 90% probably find that slightly stressful. So if you have the money, you're doing an auditorium where not every square inch counts. You make it wider. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the solution. If it's all about cramming more people into the theater or into whatever, a stadium, then you don't. It's legroom on an aircraft at some point. I think some of the big questions, they do come quite often to relatively simple, banal. Just do that. It can reduce the anxiety. It just gives people a bit more.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Freedom, control. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

When I was at university, it got to the point where I would go to a lecture if I knew it was in a lecture theater where the entrance and the exit was at the back, because you could, if you needed to, disappear without having to parade yourself in front of the whole congregation. Whereas so many lecture theaters, they put the entrance next to the lecturer. So, of course, if someone needs to exit, everyone's disrupted by it. They're small things, but it's really interesting.

[C]

Totally, totally. I mean, I couldn't agree more.

[B]

Yeah. You have used this word, allaesthesia. Have I said that right?

[C]

Yes, you have.

[B]

What does that mean?

[C]

Well, anesthesia is an interesting word and it basically is the theory that there is no one comfort setting that is right for a human. So if you go, okay, okay, I'm doing the best office building in the world, say, so what's the temperature and what's the light that I have to do so Matt can do the best work ever. And the answer is, there isn't any. What you want is something that always goes slightly to the left, slightly to the right. It's a little bit warmer, it's a bit Cooler, it's warmer. But suddenly there's a little gust of air that makes you. Oh yeah. And then it's gone again in the same gust. If I so, oh, he loves the gust. So let's give him more of that little breathe. And after a while you realize you get a stiff neck because the little breathe turns into a draft. So it all comes and goes and it's the non constant. And of course there are barriers. So you don't want it to be extremely cold and extremely hot. But I would call it oscillating. And a good way, at least I understood it from my own brain, is if you're on a bicycle and if I weld your steering in one position, your handlebar, you can't cycle. And then you go into my earlier description of you go for a walk in the forest, walk down St. James's Park. Yeah, you see the birds, the ducks, the noise. If you would have the quacking of that duck non stop, it would freak you out. If the light comes through and it's dappled light and you go, these are terrible lighting conditions. Is it shady? Is it lit? It's the mixture. And the mixture is the thing that if it's right, I think it makes you feel very calm. People then call it stimulation. And then people are negative, say, oh, you're overstimulating people. You're trying to give them extreme stimulation that's so stressful and will stop their concentration. But the actual effect is the opposite. And it is. That's why I like the bicycle. Of course, if I tell you to do your steering wheel and yank it to the left or yank it to the right, you're going to fall over. It's this very, very subtle movement. And that is again, that's what you have in nature. The light changes throughout the day. There is not one light. It changes. Clouds come, clouds go. The color temperature in the morning is different to lunchtime and in the evening. And that's what we need. And ultimately you could say, yes, but that's all fake. But then I think we have to accept that having a representation of the natural phenomena indoors, I think the fake word is wrong. I'm just giving you the best I can to give you a little bit of nature because you decided to sit at a computer all day because that's your job and you're spending 90% of your time indoors. I could say, well, it's your fault, go out more. Which is also true. It's actually a true comment. If everyone would go for a Long walk at lunchtime for an hour, that would 100% be good for everyone's health. But then you don't. So that's why I'm not trying to find an excuse for it. But I've heard the fake argument a few times and I personally believe you still have to do it. So anesthesia and a long winded answer is the scientifically correct word for what I'm describing.

[B]

I think that's so interesting. I really like that analogy of the bicycle. I think that's so easy to visualize if we were to take that bicycle into our home for a moment because, you know, we kind of get it in a corporate environment like we do have less control. We sort of know that to an extent, but at home we have a bit more of an ability to shape it maybe.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you think of some sort of practical things that we might do to help that little shimmy in the steering?

[C]

I'm always very careful with telling people how to live because I do think it's so personal and it's always slightly know it all if an architect tells people how they should live their lives anyway. But I'll give it a go. I think, you know, living in London for all these years, make sure, you know, as I've lived in horrible flats in different old rundown houses, make sure that all your sash windows work really well. So at least the piano that you're going to play works and they're not all painted over and well, no, we can't open that window and that sash doesn't work because I think the sash windows are fantastic for ventilation. Open it at the bottom, a bit at the top and the entire family play Freedom for All. Modify your ventilation all the time, number one. It sounds banal, but I always find it. I've lived in so many flats where, well, you can't open that window and you can't open that one and you can open this one, but on a hot day you want get them all open and get cross ventilation happening. And it's not as bad as you think it is then. I have one pet subject that is lighting and I don't want it to go too long. But architects are to blame for it. Builders too. People do lighting in their houses based on grids. There's kind of military precision, rows of downlights and they're all in grids because that's how architects or builders, you measure it and they all have the same distance and I think that's nonsense. Light it where you want the light but don't light it because someone says there's a grid. Number two is the quality of the light. This is a really long topic, but I want to do it quickly. The quality of the light has changed over the last years because of energy. So a lot of people have installed LED lights. Cheap LED lights are almost as bad as junk food. The light that comes out of cheap LED lights really is nothing. It has none of the solar spectrum. You know, everyone knows about. There's a bit of visible light that you have in the solar spectrum, and there's UV light and red light and all these different colors. But LEDs reduce it down to a very narrow range. Quite blue, quite cold. Yeah. The cheap one. I don't want to whatever, simplify too much, but that light is a. It's not good for you. And I can go on for a long time why it's not good for you, but I also think it makes your whole house exactly the way it is right now look less good than it actually is. And in my own personal life, I've installed something which is. It's called dim to warm. So there are LED lights that you can dim, and they don't just dim in terms of quantity. They also dim in terms of color temperature.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

So in the evening, you dim your light, but it also gets warmer, so you get more of a tune extreme. You can do it that it almost feels candlelight lit. It's fireplace lit. And I can give you a lot of psychological things, why in the evening? Humans quite like the warmness of the light, but that's quite an easy fix. And as I told you, my children love coming to our house. They love the atmosphere in the evening. And everything is done. You do it yourself. You turn your knob. So it's not like some super special computerized system. And the computer tells you what you want. And if you want to work hard on a project and you want tough working light, turn it on full blast and make it cold. And lunchtime lighting.

[B]

That's really interesting, Stefan, because obviously we'll all have come across dimmer switches, but I confess I haven't come across this idea that you can also change the color temperature as you dim. So what is that technically? What is that? Is that a type of bulb or what is it?

[C]

No, it is LED lights.

[A]

LED lights.

[C]

They're still LED lights.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But the atmosphere. And basically, without getting too technical, in an LED light, there are these little bits of material that determine what color comes out of your LED lights. And it has at least two different ones. One is brighter Yellow and one is more is a darker mustardy yellow. And it basically, by mixing them, the effect for your eyes is that I know a lot of scientists who say you should bring back at least incandescent light, the good old fashioned light bulb, which I was like, as I'm a very simple brain. Within the light bulb, there's a little wire fighting for its life, burning super orange so that it's like a micro campfire. But that red light from that little wire or near infrared light is actually really, really good for you. So if you have a little task light and at your desk, I mean, you write a lot, I would have a task light and accept the energy penalty and actually have an incandescent light because that will actually be good for your health.

[B]

Yeah, totally agree.

[C]

There's all this research on the benefits of red light and people are doing really fascinating work in that field.

[B]

Yeah, red light therapies and things. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

But it's all basically. Sorry to interrupt you, but light. I would actually say there is nutrition in light.

[B]

Oh, wow, that's a great story.

[C]

And if you actually think about it, a lot of the stuff that we do, you know, in my junk food analogy, yes, we can eat three burgers or we can eat 15 marshmallows, but there is no nutrition. It's all gone. And the natural stuff, you know, it is really very close to. Food has nutrition. That is what our body needs. We do need the radiation. And again, people who are against it, they go, oh, yeah, but you're going to burn everyone and everyone is going to get a sunburn. Of course not. But there is nutrition in daylight for sure, that your body needs. So if you live in an artificial environment, at least give people as much of the good and healthy stuff as you can. And that really is. Well, I believe very strongly that that's what we have to do.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. At a very basic level, it's thinking about it as blue light in the morning, red light later on in the day. If you want to boil it down to the essentials, I think that's a good takeaway, isn't it? Okay, so that's sort of ventilation. That's lighting. What about acoustics in the home?

[C]

I mean, you can basically go through all your senses. Yeah, yeah, acoustics. I happen to live in a flight path. Bad I should move, but I don't because I love the community and the kind of the work life. And I can be in the office in three minutes by foot. So again, we all know it instinctively, we all know it what's good and bad? Acoustic. Everyone knows the feeling that you go to a restaurant, you know, let's say you want to have a. Call it a romantic dinner, but whatever, any type of dinner. And the food is great. It all looks good, even the lighting is great, but the sound is just terrible. Yeah. During the dinner, you ask five times, sorry, I can't quite hear you. And then you hear that person. It's just the space is too hard. Too many hard surfaces, not enough absorption, and it just drives you nuts. And then you exit the restaurant and you go, let's just go for a walk. I just need to calm down from the stress. So acoustics stress you out. Yes, of course. Some acoustics are fantastic. You go to a nightclub, you want the loud music. You go to a concert, of course you want it. Do you want the echoey space? If you go to Westminster Abbey and listen to a choir singing. So again, it's all there is the right acoustics for different spaces. You can't generalize. But in your home, decide. And if you think I wanted to feel more cozy and calm, you need some surfaces that absorb. It can be a big sofa or multiple sofas, a wall hanging if you want to go really far, have carpets on the floor. But interesting. The stuff that you see in the magazine. And it's a hard floor and it's super prec. White plasterboard walls and the ceiling is concrete. You look at the image and it actually looks cool. But you can imagine what the space feels like. And then you go, feels like. What do you mean by feel like? Can imagine what it sounds like by just looking at the image. If you. Well, it's a kind of professional disease, but you can look at something and pretty much guess what it sounds like. And again, I can't tell. Would never dare to tell people how their space should feel, because as I say, it's my ice cream analogy. I can't tell you what ice cream flavor you should have or what you like or shouldn't like. It's your choice. But I mean, yeah, I'm influence it.

[B]

I'm allowed to do that, though. I'm allowed to do that, though. And I completely agree with what you're saying. And I think an interesting way to think about acoustics in the home environment would be to look at it through your term anesthesia and think about, well, how do I get some variety of sounds and acoustics into my space? Because that's what we're talking about. It's provoking the senses in different ways at different Times of day, as you move through the space, it's quite nice when a corridor, for example, is quite constricting and it might be quite dark.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

The acoustics completely change. And then as you come out into a larger living space, it sounds different, it feels different.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

So you want variety.

[C]

You want variety. And maybe your spaces themselves are completely different. You want these acoustics. If you work from home, in your home working space, and this is your dinner space and this is the kitchen and a. The spaces can feel different and then within the day of the life of a space, it can also vary. Yeah, I mean, you know, I am probably, I would count myself as a modernist architect. That's the architecture we do. And we all have problems with soft surfaces. So acoustics is a constant challenge. So. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

[B]

Yeah. I'd like to ask you about your work with. You mentioned space, Space, Mars, NASA. Just briefly touch on what work you've done there and I suppose what can we learn from that? Related to this conversation, would you say?

[C]

I think it's always interesting to go to, let's say, the boundaries of your trade of what you know. So if you think, okay, we're dealing with space and what space is, not space space, but a space should feel like what happens in extreme conditions. And we were very fortunate to be asked by the European Space Agency and then NASA and how to build in these extreme spaces. A lot of it was actually structural and we came up with different 3D printed structure. And how would you build a building a structure? It weirdly started with the furthest away place on Mars, and then we went into lunar habitats. And that's been going on for many years. We always design things, I would call it from the outside in and from the inside out. And sometimes that meets and sometimes that contradicts. And the inside out approach was very much that if you take the technical things to one side, that of course there are astronauts, are scientists, super technically focused people, and go into the psychology of it. What are they going to lack, what are they going to miss? And what should you give people? Because it's no good if they all get serious mental problems, even though they're tested to the nth degree on Earth, whether they're the appropriate candidates to go up. So they're probably some of the most resilient humans that you'll find. And you know what a missing home. We talk to astronauts. One of the funny stories is you miss your family a lot. Astronauts who have actually been on missions and says, God, what you really miss is the smell of Earth and the smell of grass and just all the different smells that you get on planet Earth. And I kind of got that. And I thought that was. It's a bit like Steve Jobs describing what people should have. And then you go, so how again, would you give people who are on a space travel fake? I'm using it in a provocative way because people have used it, let's say, against me. But would you try to give them things that are natural to remind them or to make them feel connected? What does homesick mean?

[B]

Yeah, what does it mean?

[C]

I don't know, but I mean, analyze it. There probably are PhDs on homesickness, but what do you miss from home? And if you go that far away and they call planet Earth their home, which I find another really interesting thing on your podcast. I'm not sure if you've gone there with other people. Does home mean your home? Home your house or your flat? Or is home your community, your neighborhood? Or is it your city or your country? Or when you're an astronaut down there, that planet Earth is your home? Yeah, so whatever. I don't want to go off piste too far. I learned one thing that is super dangerous for humans traveling on very long distance is gravity, which doesn't really come into my normal list of senses. I think the scientists have established that the lack of real Earth gravity, not the reduced gravity that you get on a spacecraft, will have very bad side effects on your nervous system and your mitochondria and how your cells regenerate and grow. I mean, there's so. So many things that you can learn in those extreme scenarios when people do something, well, let's call it, at least for now, unnatural. If you go on a rocket and fly for many months in one direction, that's probably fairly unnatural.

[B]

It probably is a bit.

[C]

Yeah. Well, but you see. But the creatures in that rocket are still just the same as the guys who are walking around the Savannah.

[B]

Exactly. Well, here's a provocative question then, Stefan. Let's say you went to go and live on Mars tomorrow with your family, so you wouldn't miss your family. But what do you think you would miss most about planet Earth or just being at home?

[C]

That's a good question. I do think it is probably all the. Well, a. The first thing is it's family and community. I think family is a bit too tight. All the other humans that you surround yourself with, and when you go to the baker and the baker knows your name or whatever, at least says hello to you, So I think the loneliness must be pretty extreme even if you have your family. And I think nature going out there and then maybe I'm too boring. But everything I just said, the smell of it, the look of it, the trees and I'll go for a dog walk every day in Battersea park and the dappled light last night, it's just unbelievably beautiful. The complexity of our nature and our biosphere is just amazing. And without going into fractal geometries and why we think, you know, why biophilia exists and why, you know, we do need all of this stuff. Go to the garden, touch it, put your hands in the dirt and dig it out or cut the roses and get your fingers pricked. I think all of that stuff will be very difficult for people to do far away and then even in my funny word to fake it. Will that be possible? Discuss can humans live without the planet? Even though we do the research on space, I am very doubtful that people can.

[B]

What do you think would break down?

[C]

Well at this moment being slightly too technical in my mind, I think there is no solution yet of how to getting them up there and staying up there a long time. So take me there. It'd be a one way ticket if I went. No, I mean it's just that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't survive it. So yeah, you can send young ones up telling them it's still a one way ticket but if the science evolves we might be able to get you another return ticket and keep you alive. So I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe I'm too focused on what's a healthy environment and not just a survival environment. So what's the experiment? How long can we keep them alive up there? But we will find out in the next few years. But at the moment I think our topics on Earth are so great that we need to find a way that we humans can a repair stuff that we've caused on the planet in the last 50, 60, 80 years. The damage is huge. I think we can fix a lot of it and then find a way with AI. I think that's all fantastic with AI with robotic helps to aid repair the bigger environment but also have a much deeper understanding of what humans need. Because I always say a lot of the stuff is instinctive. But in the office we're doing a lot of research with headsets and doing emotional mappings and trying to get deeper understanding of well, what goes on in your brain, what you like and dislike and what stresses you and doesn't stress you. Can we get quantitative data to understand and to prove that some of the stuff that. Not me. A lot of people are saying that this is good for you and that's not so good for you. Well, how much good light do I need? The truth is no one can tell you in this minute. It's 48 minutes a day. No, but everyone knows it is. Right, but how much we don't know yet. But maybe in two years, maybe in three years and God knows what time period we will be able to tell you. Look, that is good for you and that's not so good for humans. And I can do that in an energy efficient way. And we can also repair the planet. And to me that's the big goal. Fix the damage in the planet and give people healthier environments. You know, paradise on Earth without damaging the planet and the biosphere. Let's do it.

[B]

Sounds simple.

[C]

Exactly. But in some way, like what's the North Star? What do you want to do?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But we can also go up there and not care about this one. I think that's not currently how I

[B]

think I'll sign that petition. I like the sound of that.

[C]

I think we all need something to believe in. And the older I get, I realize I just got a statistic clearer in my head. I've kind of heard it before that since the 70s, 73% of species have disappeared.

[B]

Is that right? Go, you go.

[C]

Oh my God. That's in my lifetime. Yeah. And like who let that happen?

[B]

That's staggering, isn't it?

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of work to do.

[B]

You were saying a short while ago about the sort of definition of home being everything from your kind of physical structure to the entire planet. And that's why I always love asking that question, what does home mean to you? Because, for example, Chris Packham said to me, very instinctively, home is our planet. It's the only home we have and we all need to collectively work towards looking after it. And it was such a great moment.

[C]

I'm glad you said that. I didn't dare to go that first moment, but ultimately that's is that is it. And it is also, I mean, without getting into my own life and whatever problems in the story, you know, I was born in America, then we lived in Switzerland, then we lived in Germany. Now I'm living here since almost 40 years. So you ask, so where are you from? Like, where's your home? It's complicated.

[B]

Yeah. I think a lot of people have that. Where do you belong? Ultimately, it's a kind of fractured thing. It's. Hansel Rich Obrist called it an archipelago, which I really like. Home is an archipelago, you know.

[C]

Very true. So, yes, you can have the house and the home feeling of going into your house, which I always repeat, I think is very personal. But the feeling is bigger, you know, without getting political. Brexit has dented my home belonging feelings. I thought I was super proud to be a Londoner. I mean, I have a British passport. It's not like, what do you have on paper? But what do you feel? You want to feel safe and you want to feel belonging. And as soon as things like this happen, I think it actually has dented a lot of people's. Whatever call it identity, because your identity is. Are somehow related to where you feel whatever attachment, belonging. And if people say, well, I have to break it to you, I don't think you belong here, then what does that do with belonging? It's another long topic.

[B]

It's another long topic, but it's such a profound one. And it's obviously very interesting to hear from the perspective of someone who has had your upbringing and your background. You're a European and, you know, you're saying it's affected how you feel about being here. That's such a shame.

[C]

Well, I mean, I think it's not me. It's just many people feel like that.

[B]

Yeah, whatever.

[C]

I'm glad that other people think, you know, planet is home.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least some people are working on it.

[C]

Right. Good old Buckminster Fuller, you know, called it Spaceship Earth. Yeah, I think that's much better. It's a better way of looking at it instead of going to another one.

[B]

Yeah. Before we started recording, you said something really interesting, which was you basically said, I think it's really important that I, as an architect, don't tell people how they should live or what they should do, which I totally agree with. So sort of question for you is, if we're making a home for ourselves, do we need an architect for that? At what point do we think we need an architect? And at what point does it come from our own instincts?

[C]

Well, I personally think people should trust their instinct. I do not want to tell other architects that they shouldn't be helping people do their homes. I think that also would be the wrong thing to do. But I think you almost need a maybe. I'll dare to say something, maybe the architect who helps people to do their homes is closer to a therapist and goes like, what do you really want what's in you and what are you. What feeling are you trying to satisfy? Or what wound are you trying to heal? And what is the purpose of this thing that you're going to make your house your home? Is it, I want to impress all the people in the street, or I want to have dinner parties and bring clients home, so that's actually what I want to do, then I get it. Or my favorite thing is just movie night and a big bed and I don't cook, whatever it is. And no one comes into this house. There are millions of stories of what people want, but I think it's. I personally have this thing that architecture in its original form for. And maybe it's not pompous, it's just whatever. But I'll say it maybe more gently, I think in its original form, for thousands of years, big architecture was always the expression of power. Whether it's kings, whether it's religion, whether it's the Pope, whether it's the richest, most powerful Medici families. I mean, it was always architecture, governments. That's how you would express who you are in built form. And most of the time, these people were very powerful. And most people, but we're talking about 80, 90% or even more of the people were not that. And they were farmers and they were living their lives, or traders. And there was something which not just me, but many people call vernacular architecture. And it's just done. It's like they know how to make a fire, they know how to have a fireplace. They get a builder and they help them, or they do it with their own hands. And they get some carpenters and they put up the barn and they also put up the building for you to live in. Or some stonemason stacks up some nice dry stone walls. They all knew the climate that they were building in, and it was always most of the time, super efficient. You could say cheap, but it's not the right word. It was super clever and smart and the right minimal response to surviving in that climate zone. With the right material choice, the right connecting details and everything, they just knew. And there were no architects. Bernhard Rudolfsky is a great hero of mine. Architecture without architects. Amazing, amazing structures. Every time. We're talking thousands and thousands of years. And this whole thing of people building their home and having two columns left and right of their door is just to. I have no money, but I do have two little, whatever it is, granite columns left and right, or even a bigger one, or having a driveway. Basically, in my language, it's a modern Phenomena.

[B]

It is, isn't it? But why do we have those instincts?

[C]

I don't know. I think again, it's another long, long discussion. Is it part of the industrialization? Is it part of losing contact with land and hands and making. It's very complicated nowadays. This whole new thing of your home as an investment is also very weird. It's not your home. A lot of people as well, I swear I didn't buy for 20 years. You go, are you crazy? I mean, you ever heard of the property ladder? We didn't, we just rented and it was all fine. And you know, we did have, you know, turn these flats and stuff into hopefully relatively nice homey places. And then if you treat your home as an investment, I think that also does something odd to your head because then you think of the resale value and I have to do it because that's what the market wants. And estate agents tell you how many rooms and you try to pick all these little rooms and oh, now we have to have en suite bathrooms. So you're kind of, you're doing your home for the market.

[B]

Yeah, for someone else.

[C]

But you might be living in here for 30 years and the next people who come in, they might rip it all out. So don't buy the expensive taps or the kitchen counter because the new people are not going to keep all of this stuff. This is a really fancy toilet. Most likely the new owners will put it straight in the skip. But I think that's another very weird confusion, which I think doesn't help people just relaxing and making the home their home. And maybe in a very long winded way. It's why you then get architects who are also, oh, I know, this is what you should be doing because it keeps the resale value of your house up and they know what the estate agents know and it's like some odd. Anyway, not my field of expertise, but it's a very interesting question.

[B]

It is, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just finishing off my latest book, which is also called Homing, and lots of these themes are in there, including status, which I think is endlessly fascinating. But you were talking about this idea that if you're conceiving a home, thinking about what you need from it psychologically, internally, in terms of movement behavior, it's an intrinsic thing, not an extrinsic thing, which I think is so fascinating and I couldn't agree with more, really. And one sort of framing I've thought about is the idea of imagining a kind of typical day at home, like a Saturday or a Sunday. And what kind of things do you do in the space? How do you want it to feel? Where do you want to sit down and read a book? How and when do you want to spend time with other people? Where is the light coming in at different times of day? How are you going to move around the space? And the moment you start thinking about those kind of things, they're very different decisions. To your point, what kind of columns do I want on the outside that looks the most impressive? So that idea of starting internally, I think is so key. So I think my kind of last question for you really is from sort of everything we've talked about today. Really. If someone listening, they're sitting in their house or their flat, what would be your sort of key bit of advice? Not advice, I know you don't want to give advice, but what would be your key kind of learning or something you want them to think about in relation to their living environment, that maybe they hadn't considered it in a certain way? It might be with the senses or what do you think?

[C]

Well, while you're talking, I was thinking that maybe I should apologize for the way I talked because I do realize it is talking in a way that pretending that people have choices to do whatever they want. And that is obviously a very privileged perspective. So if you living in a very small apartment and you're just having to make ends meet, it's the wrong thing to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I realized we have kind of. We've done a lot of ballet probably. I realized I didn't answer your question. And what would someone who has no money and lives in a tiny place and can't do this or can't do that to any of their environment too, and they all have homes and the majority of people in this country and in the world actually live like that. So I realize maybe we went on the slippery ice of elitist, inevitably home discussions and they say, I apologize. Maybe the question is. But I don't even know if I know the answer. What can you do if you have no money or very little money or very little means.

[B]

Yeah, well, and also if you're, let's say you're renting and the landlord doesn't allow you to make changes and things like that.

[C]

So I realize, you know, you don't live in that funny stratosphere of anything is possible. I think if you live in a very simple apartment, maybe I would just see if you can get yourself some very cheap warm LED lights. It sounds very banal, but I'm A believer that everything we see is just bounced light. And I think lighting and light is one of the most important things of what your space, your flat, your whatever looks like. Even if you put a candle on the table, the scruffiest place might actually feel quite homey. But if the lighting, you can change your lighting, that doesn't cost money. It's just asking the right question. In the shop, when you refit your whatever it is, light bulb, it is hard. I mean, I'm now getting more thoughtful that I may be. The way a lot of people have to live is hard. And I realize a lot of the things that I've said are probably not addressing that in any way, but I mean in a positive way. Maybe it's another talk at some point. How can you actually help people in thousands and thousands and millions of flats all over the world to live a better life? You go to China and you see all these towers coming up. You're just a number in the tower over there, but you have it everywhere. In Paris, in the Peripherique, it's tough and they're all homes anyway. I'm just kind of going spiraling slightly backwards. But I think it's a really important. Cut it out.

[B]

No, it's a really important thing to say and I'm really glad you've said it. But I do think on top of that, a lot of the things we've talked about today, albeit they relate to things like Mars and Steve Jobs, which are, you know, completely unattainable. They are, however, very universal themes of, you know, how do we feel, a sense of belonging, how does our environment affect us on a multi sensory level? I think we all understand those things and it's, you know, we all have, well, most of us have a window that we can open for ventilation. We, we can even a small space, we can change the way that the, let's say the flooring feels from one area of it to the next. So some of it might have a rug on it, some of it might be hard flooring. And even that is a sort of psychological transition between a space that maybe is for congregating and a space that's maybe for sleeping and being quiet. And it feels more contained and the acoustics are different. So I do think these do apply quite universally and I'm really pleased that you pointed that out. But I think it's a really thought provoking conversation and I think especially with you working for so many years with Foster and Partners, which is a very big practice, doing huge buildings around the world, I love that we've been able to pull this right down to the kind of absolute essence of what it is to be a human being in a space, because we all feel that all of your talk about light and sound and so on, I completely agree with. So I've really enjoyed it. Stefan, thanks so much for joining me.

[C]

Thanks for mate. I enjoyed it too. Thank you very much.

[A]

Thanks very much for listening, folks. And a big thank you to Stefan

[B]

as well, of course.

[A]

I really enjoyed that. It was great to meet Stefan. I think he really challenges our preconceptions, actually, about how big architecture firms think about their projects and approach them. And I particularly like his analogy about riding a bike and constantly adjusting the steering. So this idea that our environment should be something that's in flux rather than

[B]

sort of at a constant level all the time.

[A]

So I loved it and I hope you enjoyed it as well. If you did, and you can spare a second to leave us a quick

[B]

review on Apple or Spotify that will

[A]

be very, very much appreciated. You'll find Homing, of course, on Instagram, YouTube and Patreon, where you can also sign up to watch our house tours with many of our guests. Search for Homing with Matt on all of those platforms.

[C]

Films.

[A]

This episode was produced by Podshop with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again for being here and talk

[B]

to you on the next one.

[C]

Bye Bye.