13: Bloody Mackenzie - Cemeteries

Summary

I Scream, You Scream Podcast - Episode 13: Bloody Mackenzie - Cemeteries

Release Date: January 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 13 of the I Scream, You Scream podcast, hosts Gina and Katherine delve into the dark and haunting history of Greyfriars Kirkyard in Edinburgh, Scotland. Paired with their monthly "dirt cup" ice cream theme, this episode explores the chilling tales surrounding George Mackenzie, infamously known as Bloody Mackenzie, and the paranormal activities associated with his legacy.

Ice Cream and Personal Anecdotes

The episode begins with the hosts sharing their unique interpretations of the "dirt cup" ice cream flavor. Katherine humorously describes her version as oatmeal with chocolate chips and trail mix, while Gina opts for a more traditional approach with chocolate ice cream, crushed Oreos, and gummy caterpillars.

Notable Quote:

• Katherine [01:39]: "Please excuse me while I explain my situation. Katherine's not feeling so great today, so super extra ice cream was not in the cards for me."

They also reminisce about childhood experiences with nuts in baked goods, highlighting personal stories that add a relatable and lighthearted touch to the conversation.

Diving into the Dark: Bloody Mackenzie and Greyfriars Kirkyard

At 09:01, Gina introduces the main topic by recounting a disturbing incident from 2003 where two teenagers broke into the Black Mausoleum at Greyfriars Kirkyard. Their actions unleashed a series of supernatural events linked to George Mackenzie.

Notable Quote:

• Gina [09:04]: "In 2003, there were these two teenagers that visited Greyfriars Kirkyard... the older kid went inside, lifted the lid off of the coffin, saw a body in there, and then he used a pocket knife to saw off the head of the body."

Katherine's immediate and visceral reaction underscores the horror of the tale:

Notable Quote:

• Katherine [10:01]: "What? Another fucking neck story, I am quitting this podcast."

The Life and Legacy of George Mackenzie

Gina provides a comprehensive background on George Mackenzie, detailing his rise to power as Scotland's Lord Advocate in 1677. Born in the 1630s into the influential MacKenzie clan, George was a well-educated lawyer whose legal writings shaped Scottish law for centuries. However, his advocacy for the use of torture and inhumane treatment to suppress the Covenanters—a group of Scottish Presbyterians opposing Anglican dominance—earned him the ruthless nickname "Bloody Mackenzie."

Notable Quote:

• Gina [14:20]: "He fucking sucks. Like, he is the worst person ever."

The Covenanters Conflict and Brutal Persecution

The episode delves into the Covenanters conflict, explaining the tensions between Scottish Presbyterians and the Anglican monarchy. Under Mackenzie's direction, the Covenanters faced severe persecution during a period known as the "Killing Time." Over 1,200 Covenanters were imprisoned at Greyfriars Kirkyard, enduring horrific conditions including starvation, disease, and brutal torture methods such as the use of the "boot" and "thumb screws."

Notable Quotes:

• Gina [22:35]: "It was entirely outside with little to no protection from the elements or exposure whatsoever."
• Gina [28:21]: "There was also a device called the boot, which is something that they strapped to your leg to slowly crush your leg bone."

Katherine's empathy shines through as she reacts to the grim details:

Notable Quote:

• Katherine [24:08]: "Oh, my God."

Haunting of Greyfriars Kirkyard: The Spirit of Bloody Mackenzie

Following Mackenzie's death in 1691, his spirit became entwined with the dark history of Greyfriars Kirkyard. The Black Mausoleum, his final resting place, is now infamous for paranormal activities attributed to his restless spirit. Visitors report cold spots, unexplained physical attacks, and mysterious scratches or bruises.

Notable Quote:

• Katherine [13:25]: "Oh, my God. Ooh."

Gina shares accounts of eerie incidents, including a man who fell into a pit of skeletons during a storm and another who exhibited extreme hysteria after breaking into the mausoleum.

Notable Quote:

• Gina [35:26]: "It's like, it's so sad, it's so offensive if I was chosen."

Theories and Legends Surrounding the Poltergeist

The hosts explore various theories attempting to explain the supernatural phenomena, ranging from Bloody Mackenzie being a poltergeist or a demon to more unconventional explanations like a pheromone cloud—though they acknowledge the latter as highly speculative and outlandish.

Notable Quote:

• Gina [55:43]: "If the Mackenzie Poltergeist isn't a genuine supernatural entity, then I don't think there's any such thing, not anywhere in the world."

Katherine and Gina engage in creative speculation, humorously developing fictional scenarios about how Mackenzie's spirit continues to wreak havoc beyond the cemetery's confines.

Modern-Day Impact and Ghost Tours

Greyfriars Kirkyard remains a hotbed for paranormal enthusiasts and tourists alike, attracting approximately 2 million visitors annually. The enduring legacy of Bloody Mackenzie fuels ghost tours and paranormal investigations, keeping the dark history alive in contemporary folklore.

Notable Quote:

• Gina [53:04]: "So, like, there's all sorts of shit that goes on."

Katherine reflects on the cemetery's active use as a burial site, pointing out how new interments add layers of energy and potential hauntings to the already turbulent history.

Conclusion

In wrapping up the episode, Gina cites author Jan Andrew Henderson, emphasizing the enigmatic nature of the Bloody Mackenzie Poltergeist and its status as a well-documented supernatural case.

Notable Quote:

• Gina [54:30]: "He's an act. Like this is his life."

The hosts express a mix of fascination and trepidation about visiting such a haunted location, reaffirming their commitment to uncovering the depths of chilling histories and mysteries.

Notable Quote:

• Katherine [58:19]: "This was fascinating. I'm so happy you told this story because I didn't know about it and now I do."

Final Thoughts

Episode 13 masterfully intertwines historical facts with supernatural lore, presenting a compelling narrative of Bloody Mackenzie and the haunted Greyfriars Kirkyard. Gina and Katherine's engaging storytelling, combined with their personal anecdotes and humor, create an immersive experience that both educates and entertains listeners.

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Keep it cool 🍦 and keep it creepy 💀

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Transcript

[Katherine]

I need a new chair for my desk because I have one of those chair, like, it. Like, you can raise it and it's at the lowest it can go, but this chair kind of sinks. So, like, I can't. It's, like, higher than it should be. So per. Whatever the fuck ergonomics is, it's too high for me, and I can't. But I can't do anything about that. You know what I mean? Like, I can't make it go lower.

[Gina]

Yeah. Anyway, welcome to I scream. You scream. Hello.

[Katherine]

I guess we are your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and true crime. My name's Katherine.

[Gina]

I'm Gina.

[Katherine]

Every month we choose a new topic to discuss, and we also choose different ice cream to go along with it. This month we're very excited. I'm very excited about this topic this month, which is cemeteries. And the flavor of ice cream we're doing is dirt cup, which. Please excuse me while I explain my situation. Katherine's not feeling so great today, so super extra ice cream was not in the cards for me. So I will be eating oatmeal. So my interpretation of a cemetery dirt cup is oatmeal with a couple of chocolate chips and trail mix.

[Gina]

Yum.

[Katherine]

So maybe, like, there's some dirt and maybe the trail mix can be rocks or something. Yeah.

[Gina]

I love that you did that because I put one of the ingredients in my interpretation is salted peanuts. And I also was going to be like, oh, they're like the rocks in the dirt.

[Katherine]

Okay. I will say this is literally just how I eat oatmeal because I don't really like oatmeal, but, like, I like it like this. I like to have some kind of texture in it. Also, pro tip, for those who like churros, the cinnamon oatmeal with chocolate chips in it is like a churro oatmeal. So highly recommend.

[Gina]

And oatmeal.

[Katherine]

So that's what this is. Plus trail mix.

[Gina]

Okay.

[Katherine]

Yeah. So highly recommend.

[Gina]

Sounds good. Yeah, I went the more traditional route. I have chocolate ice cream crushed up Oreos on top, and it looks like a gummy worm, but it's actually a gummy caterpillar.

[Katherine]

I was gonna say, let me see again, because I did notice that that is a very large gummy worm. It's huge. So cute. Like, that's kind of creepy. Thomas, your dish again. Can I eat ice cream again? Yeah, that's. That's. That's what we're going for for the ice cream dirt cups. That's an a Plus, ice cream Dirt Club.

[Gina]

I give you an A plus for innovation.

[Katherine]

Yeah. I am using the Karen. The Karen bowl today because I like hot oatmeal. Hot, hot, hot. All right, let's grab a spoon and dig in.

[Gina]

Fuck, yeah. I'm excited to try this. The peanuts. The peanuts. Do it.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I like that you added peanuts to that.

[Gina]

We.

[Katherine]

We talked about this before. Oh, we were talking about savory and sweet, not salty and sweet, but that's kind of the same thing.

[Gina]

Sorry. There's so much to chew through.

[Katherine]

Yeah. I was gonna say that was the longest we've ever, like, taken a first bite because I just realized we haven't needed to chew.

[Gina]

There's so many bits in it. When I was up, I think it was on some regular basis, like, every Sunday or something, my dad would make me and my sister ice cream sundaes, and he would also make himself one, and he would always put peanuts, like salted peanuts on top of it. And so it's always been, like, one of my favorite toppings for ice cream. So if you haven't tried it before, highly recommend because it's super tasty.

[Katherine]

I'm sure I have, because I think crushed peanuts isn't. Doesn't that come on like a banana split? Like a proper, traditional, like, banana split or something?

[Gina]

I think it. Or like, maybe walnuts or something. Some kind of nut.

[Katherine]

Is it walnuts? I know some. I do love a crushed nut on a dessert. I know I had to say it. Will you stop?

[Gina]

I'm sorry. I, too, love a crushed nut.

[Katherine]

We love a crushed nut over here. At. I scream. You scream. Wait, can I tell you something? It's not. I was gonna say, can I tell you something funny? It's just, like a funny little anecdote, like, within my family. So growing up, it was the pickiest eater ever. And one time, I said one time that I don't like nuts. Any type of nut. I don't like them. It was like, I was probably, like, three years old. So for the rest of my life, my grandma would always, like, exclude nuts from her cookie recipe. And, like, when I became an adult, I love. I love. I love pecans. I love walnuts. I love peanut. Like, I love all of those in baked goods, particularly walnuts and pecans. So she. I think her traditional recipe, the one that she always used to make, was walnuts and chocolate chips. And I would tell her, starting from, like, age 14 on, for my entire life, I would tell her, I love walnuts. You don't have to change the cookie recipe for me anymore. I never. I never got a walnut cookie from her. And, like, to the point where, like, there were a few Christmases where she would make walnut chocolate chip and chocolate chip. The chocolate chip were Katie's and everyone else got walnut. I'm like, can I have a walnut? Like, can I have one of everyone else's cookies?

[Gina]

You were relegated to the nutless corner. That's so funny.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Like, it was.

[Gina]

She was so.

[Katherine]

Is that such a grandma thing? I think, like, you say one thing one time, and then, like, Adam always, Kit Kats, his favorite. His favorite candy was always Kit Kat. And, like, it wasn't. But according to her, we would come to her house and she'd have a gallon bag freezer bag of Kit Kats with Adam's name on it.

[Gina]

Aw.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Gina]

That's so sweet.

[Katherine]

Yeah. And he'd be like, katie likes Kit Kats too. Like, you could. But no, like, I got the Snickers because that's my favorite.

[Gina]

That is better than Kit Kat. Yeah, that was so much better than Kit Kat.

[Katherine]

Do you like raisins in your baked goods?

[Gina]

Here's the thing. Yes. But I would always choose something else if given the option.

[Katherine]

Yeah. If my only option for dessert was a. An oatmeal raisin cookie, I would hap. I would happily accept. If it was the. If it was part of a spread of desserts, it would be likely one of. Not the. But it would likely be one of the last that I would go for. Have you ever made rum cake where you literally soak it in rum?

[Gina]

So in the uk, I don't know if it's the entirety of the UK or just, like, specific parts of it, but they do this thing for Christmas and it's like a Christmas pudding, and it's essentially my. My understanding of what it is. If somebody else knows better, please email us, because, I don't know, it's like a fruitcake in, like, a dome kind of shape, and then they pour alcohol on it. I don't know if it's rum or brandy or what. And then they set it on fire. And it's funny that we're talking about this, because I was. Our Christmas hampers from work came in today. So every year they send us, like, little treats and, like, a bottle of wine or whatever. And one of the things in there is a Christmas pudding. And so I was talking to my colleague about it and was like, oh, are you a Christmas pudding fan? Like, how much do you like? Do you like it? And he was like, oh, yeah, I like it, but we're gonna wait until next year to eat it. And I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, it's way better if you let it age for a year.

[Katherine]

People do that with their wedding cakes.

[Gina]

Oh, they'll, like, freeze it and keep it for ages.

[Katherine]

Oh, but it's not aging. It's frozen. Like, there's definitely still an expiration date on frozen stuff.

[Gina]

If there's.

[Katherine]

I don't know.

[Gina]

One thing I learned in my cumulatively probably years worth of time watching Kitchen Nightmares, it's that freezing things is bad.

[Katherine]

Wait, I don't think I've ever watched that.

[Gina]

Because you've never seen Kitchen Nightmares, dude. Okay, it is.

[Katherine]

Is that.

[Gina]

It's so good. Well, it's not good, but it's so good. It's a show that Gordon Ramsay did, like, back in the day, where the whole premise is that he would go to, like, a failing restaurant, diagnose the issues that were causing them to fail, and then work with them to fix it.

[Katherine]

And how I do know about this.

[Gina]

The problem would be, like, they're freezing their food before they serve it. And he.

[Katherine]

It's fucking frozen.

[Gina]

It's not fresh. Like that kind of thing. That was every episode. Yeah. Welcome to 2025, everyone. This is our first 2025 episode.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Yeah, that definitely slipped my mind.

[Gina]

Me too.

[Katherine]

Happy New Year.

[Gina]

Happy New Year. Welcome back.

[Katherine]

Let's dive in. Business as usual. Do you want to tell your story?

[Gina]

Do it. Yeah, I have a whole ass story to tell you. Okay, cool. So I'm not going to give any context to this story. I'm just going to dive right in. All right. In 2003, there were these two teenagers that visited Greyfriars Kirkyard, which is a cemetery in Edinburgh. It's in Scotland. They were 17 and 15, so, like, pretty young, but old enough to know what they were doing. And they walked into the heart of the cemetery, like, right in the middle of it, where they found this really big kind of ornate stone mausoleum. The older one, being a little ne'er do well, decided to kick in the door to the mausoleum. And while the other boy stood guard outside, the older kid went inside, lifted the lid off of the coffin, saw a body in there, and then he used a pocket knife to saw off the head of the body.

[Katherine]

What?

[Gina]

Yeah. Wait till I tell you what he does next. So this kid, this 17 year old, stuck his hand into the neck of. Of the severed head and started using it like a sock puppet to, like, entertain his Friend Gina, if you tell.

[Katherine]

Another fucking neck story, I am quitting this podcast.

[Gina]

It's like necks and exhuming. Those are my two things.

[Katherine]

Exhuming. Exhumations.

[Gina]

Are.

[Katherine]

Are you okay?

[Gina]

I don't mean to. It's just all these little neck details that I don't know about until I do.

[Katherine]

We fully came in hot with this one. I didn't even get, like, a warmup to, like, anticipate.

[Gina]

No, I know. I'm sorry.

[Katherine]

Okay, wow. Please continue. I just had to, like, point out how much psychological damage.

[Gina]

I know, I know. It's a horrible thing to do. Like, we're laughing, but, like. Like, that was not cool.

[Katherine]

As mentioned in a previous episode, I want to be very clear that I am laughing because I am so fucking uncomfortable right now.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

That I truly cannot believe you're doing this to me again. And I cannot believe that that boy did that to that body. Like, I'm very.

[Gina]

The last neck and exhuming thing. That's the. That's the only thing related to necks and. Or exhumations in this story.

[Katherine]

I literally. It didn't even really register that this is technically both. I didn't even really register that he technically exhumed that body.

[Gina]

Is there something wrong with my psyche? Am I subconsciously picking these stories?

[Katherine]

I think we're in the process of learning that there is.

[Gina]

Okay, well, 2024.

[Katherine]

Wait, isn't it. Well, it's not funny, but, like, there are definitely themes with both of us, like. Oh, you pick, like, 90s stuff, like psycho 90s men.

[Gina]

Yeah, and you pick breaking necks and busting directions, baby.

[Katherine]

All right, well, glad we've identified that.

[Gina]

Anyway, continue. So the good news about this is that these boys were caught. A tour guide spotted them, called the police. They were apprehended. They wound up receiving probation for their crime. But what's interesting about this is that they became the first people in over a century in Scotland to be charged with violation of sepulchre, which is basically disturbing a dead person. Ironically, as part of their sentence, they did have to help clean up graveyards, which I think is appropriate. Ever since then, though, ever since these boys broke into that mausoleum, visitors to the graveyard have reported very strange things when they reach that area of the cemetery. Specifically things like cold spots, physical attacks from an unseen force, and people often walk away with scratches and bruises that they just can't explain. It's unclear if these teenagers knew that Greyfriars Kirkyard is considered one of the most haunted cemeteries in the world. But if they did know. I wonder if they knew that they were breaking into the grave of one of the most bloodthirsty and brutal men in British history. The mausoleum in question, which is known as the Black Mausoleum, belonged to a man named George MacKenzie, aka Bloody MacKenzie, one of the world's most violent poltergeists. Dun, dun, dun.

[Katherine]

Oh, my God. Ooh.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Ooh. Okay, good start to the cemetery stories.

[Gina]

Thank you. Thank you very much. So let's talk about George Mackenzie a little bit as he was in life. Anyway. So he was born a really long time ago, 1630s. And he was born in Scotland as part of the clan MacKenzie, which was basically just a very wealthy and influential family in Scotland back then. And being part of a wealthy family meant that George was able to access what was at the time an excellent education, like, the best education available. So he was a really well educated guy. Yeah, he wound up becoming a lawyer and just a very generally respected legal scholar. He authored some really influential legal texts. And the things that he wrote wound up helping shape Scottish law for centuries. Like, he was seen as one of the smartest people in Britain.

[Katherine]

Spoiler alert.

[Gina]

Like, he. He fucking sucks. Like, he is the worst person ever. But he did have a sharp mind and he knew how to get people's attention, even though a lot of his opinions were super divisive. So, for example, he wrote a lot of legal essays defending the use of torture. And surprise, surprise, not everyone agreed with him. He did have supporters who viewed him as just like a loyal advocate of the crown who was, you know, willing to do whatever was necessary to serve the monarch, blah, blah, blah. But his critics were like, no, don't torture people.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Like, just maybe don't do that. Regardless, though, he saw torture and things like inhumane treatment as kind of a necessary evil to protect the greater good. But he also. And this. This part I do find more interesting, he saw torture as kind of a psychological weapon to keep the rest of the populace in line. So basically, if you know you're going to get tortured by breaking the law, you're way less likely to break the law, which is interesting. But also, like, I won't even try and get a. Like, a fine is enough to put me off of breaking a law. Like, I don't. You don't need to chop my thumbs off, you know?

[Katherine]

Yeah, I feel like that is the type of thing that I feel like many psychologists are on the same page with, saying that, like, negative reinforcement is pretty regularly less effective than positive reinforcement. It's like, I feel like, yeah, that's, that's a little, a touch, a touch extreme to like, keep people in line.

[Gina]

Yeah, it's like almost operating under the constant threat of physical pain and violence is not a healthy place to be and won't make you act nicely. Yeah, I don't know. That's just me.

[Katherine]

Yeah, yeah, just, just our opinions. What do we, what do we know?

[Gina]

Whatever. Despite all of his, his critics, though, his prestige as a lawyer, along with his family's connections, meant that he was pretty on in his life, operating in circles that were very close to both the monarchy and the aristocracy. And this led to him being named Scotland's lord advocate in 1677. And in doing that, he was placed in direct service of the monarch. Like, basically his boss was the King, which made him one of the most powerful men in Scotland. I am in to give a bit of background on what being a Lord Advocate means, because when I read that I was like, oh, Lord Advocate.

[Katherine]

Yeah, this is, this is very much, this is very much a, like. Oh, yes, yes, on my part, absolutely. Okay, I'll Google that later. Please continue.

[Gina]

So the Lord Advocate was essentially the Crown's senior legal officer and chief prosecutor. So his main job was to uphold the King's laws and he got to decide how best to do that. And to understand the gravity of what he does with that power, we first need to talk about something called the Covenanters conflict. We're not going to get like too deep into it because Scottish and English relations are. Is a very complex topic that spans actual centuries. So we're not going to fit it all in right now. But for the Covenanters conflict, this is the overview. So the Covenanters were a group of Scottish Presbyterians who basically just didn't want the Anglican monarchy fucking around in church matters because. And we all know this story, back in the 16th century, Henry VIII started the Anglican Church so that he could divorce his wife. And the monarch has been head of the Anglican Church ever since.

[Katherine]

So public did not know that story.

[Gina]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes.

[Katherine]

I didn't know that's why Anglican got started. I knew that he did weird shit in order to be able to do things with wives, but I didn't know that was one of them.

[Gina]

Yeah, he wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon and the Pope at the time wouldn't let him. And so Henry VIII said, fine, fuck you, I'm gonna form of Christianity called Anglicanism and I will be the head of the Church. So I get to decide who divorces. And therefore, even to this day, the national religion is Still Anglicanism, yeah. So public rebellions against Anglicanism were seen as very, very dangerous. And so the monarchy basically just wanted the Presbyterian Scots to fall in line with that and stop messing around with all this, like, Presbyterian stuff. I do have a bit of information on the differences between Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. If there are any theologians listening to this, please be gentle with me because I'm going to vastly oversimplify things, but Anglicanism is really similar to Catholicism in that it has a very strict hierarchical structure. Instead of the Pope though, we have the monarch as head of the church. So you have things like bishops, archbishops. It's, it's almost militaristic in its reporting lines, kind of. Presbyterianism is way more focused on equality. It's very egalitarian and it does not view the monarch as head of the church. It aims to structure itself as more of a flat hierarchy where all people are truly regarded as equal in terms of power, which creates a bit of a conflict when you're trying to pull away from a structure that is heavily hierarchical and wants to stamp you down. So basically, tensions between the Scottish Presbyterians and the Anglican Church continued escalating. King Charles the First really started laying on the pressure for the Scots to switch to Anglicanism. And that led Scottish leaders to create the national covenant of 1638. So that was around the time that George Mackenzie was born. And this was essentially a document saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, like, look, dude, we are committed to Presbyterianism. The King is not the highest power, Christ is. So you can fuck right off. The monarchy was not happy about this. Obviously they viewed it as like dangerously rebellious, if not outright heretical. So Presbyterians, their emphasis on things like equality and local government governance threatened the top down control that the Anglican monarchy was used to at the time. But they refused to back down. Like both sides absolutely refused to stop, which wound up leading to a brutal persecution of people who signed that covenant, the Scottish Presbyterians, which lasted to the reign of King Charles ii, who is the one who made George Mackenzie the Lord Advocate. The persecution of Presbyterians in Scotland actually lasted much longer than that. Again, this is a vast oversimplification, but for the purposes of this episode, that's kind of all of the background info you need to know. Okay, okay. So back to George Mackenzie. So as Scotland's Lord Advocate, George was tasked with trying, punishing and executing these covenants in an era that would eventually become known as the killing time. If that tells you anything about how violent this was.

[Katherine]

Oh my. Okay.

[Gina]

And the killing time was a period in history where the Scottish Covenanters were brutally killed. I mean, they were persecuted to hell and back. Under the direction of George MacKenzie, 1,200 covenanters were apprehended for imprisonment. And this is where the actual, like, story starts to kick off. So you have 1,200 people. But George kind of has an issue because there's no one prison where you can house that many people. So he had to think outside the box. And his solution was to take care of the majority through either executing them or deporting them. He did wind up releasing a few who swore loyalty to the crown, but around 400 of them wound up in the Covenanters prison, which was a makeshift open air prison that took up part of Greyfriars Kirkyard. The cemetery we were talking about at.

[Katherine]

The beginning, was it a cemetery at the time or like that land? Yeah.

[Gina]

So it's been a cemetery for centuries. It totally ups the creek factor, right?

[Katherine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

It's a very historic. And even before it officially became a cemetery, it was the site of like, mass graves and things like that, like plague victims, that kind of thing.

[Katherine]

Oh, okay.

[Gina]

Yeah. So I do. I want to talk about the fact that this was an open air prison for a little bit, because that's fucked.

[Katherine]

Okay.

[Gina]

It was entirely outside with little to no protection from the elements or exposure whatsoever. Over the roughly four months that these prisoners were held there, they suffered absolutely brutal and barbaric treatment under George Mackenzie's direction. Like I mentioned, people were exposed to the elements. They barely had any shelter. There was like a tall stone wall around the area and maybe like a tree and a shrub, but that was it. There was no, like, little huts. There were no houses to go into. There weren't prison cells. It was all outside, everyone in the same space. And Scottish weather. Don't know if you guys have heard the stereotypes about the uk. Not the fucking best. The prison started being used in the late summer, like kind of July, August time. But even if the days were warm, the nights definitely weren't. And when it got to winter, you wound up having freezing rain on top of that. So the weather isn't in their favor. They had a thin blanket. They were given thin, thin blankets.

[Katherine]

Oh, my God.

[Gina]

And that was it. The weather was against them. But also, like, people are just not designed to be outside for that long.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Gina]

They survived on just 4 ounces of bread a day. That's all they were given. And I know that's hard to picture, so I looked up, like, how much would a 4 ounce thing of bread be. Picture, like a dinner roll?

[Katherine]

I was literally gonna say I can picture it because I have, like, five of them as a side dish for my freaking dinner. Right?

[Gina]

Yeah. A day. That's all they had.

[Katherine]

That's so small.

[Gina]

It's so little. And it's like just bread. It doesn't have any of, like, the vitamins, like, protein. Yeah, yeah. They would. Every now and then, additional food would be snuck in by sympathizers. They would either, like, throw it over the wall or, like, sneak it through gaps or something, but it certainly was not enough to keep 400 people in good health. So, unfortunately. Yeah.

[Katherine]

And this was all just. I think you said this, but I do. Just for, like, my purposes of following along. Are these all people related to, like, the religion situation or is this all. Okay, yeah, I'll just let you continue. Sorry.

[Gina]

Okay. Oh, no, no, no, no. You're asking. Yeah.

[Katherine]

So, okay.

[Gina]

Yes, but also, this was a time when women were often charged for the crimes of their husbands kind of thing. So, like, if. If, let's say, like, I'm married to someone who signed that covenant and he gets arrested, me and my children are getting arrested too, even if we are not necessarily Covenanters.

[Katherine]

Okay.

[Gina]

So there were women and children in this prison. And I'll get more into that in a little bit.

[Katherine]

Ugh. Okay.

[Gina]

Yeah, I know, it's awful.

[Katherine]

I'm, like, happy for the clarification and also very sorry I asked. Oh, yeah, it's not.

[Gina]

It's not good.

[Katherine]

I wasn't ready for that. Okay.

[Gina]

It's harsh. I'm ready.

[Katherine]

I'm ready.

[Gina]

It does get worse. I'm so sorry to tell you.

[Katherine]

Excellent. I mean, not excellent, but, like, I will. I am now. Thank you for the warning.

[Gina]

You are now prepared.

[Katherine]

I am now prepared. It's excellent that I am prepared. Thank you.

[Gina]

And because of the. The lack of food, a lot of people did wind up starving to death. That. That was, like, one of the big causes of death at the prison was starvation, but it was also insanely overcrowded. The exact dimensions we're not 100% sure about. But we know that prisoners had trouble, like, finding space to lie down or even moving freely. It was very difficult. People were just, like, piled on top of each other. And like I said earlier, it wasn't just men. This was a time when entire families would be persecuted for this kind of thing. And of course, there were, like, women who were imprisoned that supported the Covenant independent of any man. They were imprisoned as well. It Just wasn't as common. It was mostly men. And because of all of the, you know, the exposure, the malnutrition, just the general unsanitary conditions you get from that level of overcrowding, many people became extremely ill, especially the kids. So, like, starvation and disease were two huge issues for the prison. But that's still not the worst part, and I'm so sorry. So, under George's direction, who I will remind you is a big fan of torture, prisoners were subjected to some really gnarly torture methods in an attempt to either get confessions out of them or the names of other people who were Covenanters. The men did bear the brunt of it. Women were occasionally targeted or abused as well. But it was mostly men who actually were subjected to the torture. And I am going to give you a few examples of the types of torture that they suffered. So there are reports of regular beatings from the guards. The guards were apparently super violent, including a few instances where people were beaten to death. There was also a device called the boot, which is something that they strapped to your leg to slowly crush your leg bone. Like, it kind of looks like two if you picture two planks of wood on either side of your leg. And they just tighten it and tighten it and tighten it until your bones are crushed. The third and last example I'm going to give you is something called a thumb screw.

[Katherine]

No, I don't want you to describe what that is. Please.

[Gina]

Okay, yeah, Okay.

[Katherine]

I really don't.

[Gina]

I'm so sorry. It's okay. Whatever. Ye.

[Katherine]

We. We can. We can link a description to make it easier for you guys, but I really. Can I just take my. Why don't I take my earbud out so you can tell our friends what it's like? Okay, I'll do that.

[Gina]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I.

[Katherine]

Give me a thumbs up when you're ready. Oh, my God.

[Gina]

Yeah. Be alone with you about me.

[Katherine]

Okay. Okay, I'm ready.

[Gina]

All right, you guys. So a thumb screw was a device that was used to slowly crush the bones in your thumb. Picture, like a brass knuckle, but only for your thumbs. And there's a plate of metal sitting right on top of it. And they twist this little key that slowly crushes the first joint in your th. Catherine can't even hear me. And she's making a disgusted face. Okay, we're going to bring her back.

[Katherine]

Okay. I did see you acting it out.

[Gina]

I thought I hid my thumbs. I'm so sorry.

[Katherine]

You did. You tried. But I could. You were like, right Here.

[Gina]

I'm so sorry. Okay. When they weren't being tortured, a large number of prisoners, including children, were also shipped off to become indentured servants in British colonies. It was something they called transportation, which at the time was seen as like the equivalent of a death sentence. Basically because the act of going across an open ocean back then was extremely dangerous. Like, I know we know this, but it's not like today with our all inclusive cruises and drink packages. It's nothing like that. They were incredibly harsh conditions to live in. And the ships that they used for transportation of prisoners were crazy overcrowded, which again contributes to like a ton of disease and lack of sanitary conditions and just an overall hellish experience. And then, even then, even if you survive and get out of the boat on the other side, your new master could treat you like human garbage. Like you were just. If you got transportation, you were kind of screwed. But when they weren't being tortured or shipped off to die somewhere else, George also made sure that there were plenty of public executions, mainly as a way to send a message to other Covenanters. And this part really broke my heart. Children in the prison were often forced to watch as their parents were beheaded or hung.

[Katherine]

Oh.

[Gina]

Which was designed to act as a deterrent to basically get these kids to not follow in their parents footsteps. Surprise, surprise. Had the opposite effect.

[Katherine]

Yeah. Sad, but also like, thank goodness.

[Gina]

Yeah. Like it's kind of crazy how like violently murdering someone's parents makes them not want to do anything with you.

[Katherine]

Right, right.

[Gina]

Crazy.

[Katherine]

Oh my God, that's heartbreaking.

[Gina]

I know, it's so sad. And after prisoners were executed, their heads were often put on pikes around Edinburgh as a warning of what happens to people who rebel against the Anglican Crown. George Mackenzie is fucked. He's an asshole.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I don't like that. I don't like him.

[Gina]

Yeah, me neither. So by the time all was said and done, the prisoners numbers had been reduced from 1,200 to just 257 people in a matter of months. Remember, they were only in the prison for about four months. It was, it was so much cruelty and barbarity concentrated into the shortest amount of time, which somehow makes it feel even worse. The prisoners who were still left alive at the end of this, that roughly 257 number, they were given the dreaded sentence of transportation. Unfortunately, their ship sank en route to Barbados and roughly 200 of those prisoners drowned because they were chained below the decks so they physically could not escape. Oh yeah, there were some people that survived. The shipwreck though, either because they were able to get out or because the ship was literally breaking apart around them. And so they were able to kind of free their chains, but sadly, even then, they were not free. The vast majority were reapprehended and then brought back to Scotland to serve prison time somewhere else. So, yeah, the Covenanters prison stopped being actively used around 1679, 1680. But what happened there followed George for the rest of his life, earning him the title Bloody Mackenzie. He was given that title while he was still alive.

[Katherine]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Gina]

George eventually died in around 1691 at the age of 55. His cause of death, though, is kind of unclear. We're not really quite sure what happened. Historians generally suspect that it was stress related because he was a very stressed out dude and he had a really stressful career as Lord Advocate. I kind of want to start a rumor that somebody, like, poisoned him or killed him.

[Katherine]

Me too. For sure. If anytime there's a question mark, like, on how someone died, the world is our oyster. I mean, because also, like, back then, they didn't have the same type of medical examinations that we do now. So it could have been something as, like, you know, someone was like, strangling him or something, and they just don't know how he died. You know what I mean? Like, it could be.

[Gina]

Yeah. And he had so many people who hate. And like, all of these kids grew up hating him. He was the embodiment of everything that was wrong with society, you know, So I wouldn't be surprised if somebody did assassinate him.

[Katherine]

Let's do that. It was. He was poisoned by one of the children who had to witness their parents being killed.

[Gina]

Yeah. Yeah, that's the rumor we're gonna start.

[Katherine]

Yeah. And it was a girl, and she was a warrior.

[Gina]

Yeah, I like that.

[Katherine]

Projecting. That's definitely what happened.

[Gina]

I. I like that better than, oh, he died because he was stressed out.

[Katherine]

Yeah. It's so hard being a torturous piece of.

[Gina]

Yeah. Gosh, I have so many thumbs to screw today. I'm just going to die. Sorry. Okay, so, yeah, he dies. Cause of death not super clear. His body was moved to Edinburgh, he died in London. That's why it had to be moved.

[Katherine]

Okay.

[Gina]

And he was laid to rest in the black mausoleum, ironically, just yards away from the site of the Covenanters prison.

[Katherine]

I want to add a layer to our theory. What if the spirits from the Covenant came and, like, possessed one of the children who were, like, planning to murder him, but they didn't have. They didn't have Faith in themselves. So the ghosts of the Covenant came and possessed them and helped them do.

[Gina]

It and gave them the concept so.

[Katherine]

That he could kill, so that he could be laid to rest near them. So they could finish him off in the afterlife.

[Gina]

Yes. Yes. Okay, I did that. I fucking like that. Yeah. Okay, good. But, yeah, spoiler alert. He's a poltergeist. So his reign of terror did not end when he died. Rumors have always kind of circulated that, like, a guy this evil cannot be contained by the afterlife. Like, Bloody MacKenzie's coming back one way or another. People have been saying that, like, since.

[Katherine]

He died, but that makes sense.

[Gina]

One of the inciting incidents was in the late 1990s. There was a really bad storm over Edinburgh, and a man who. I don't know where he was going, but he happened to be in Greyfriars Kirkyard, and he broke into the black mausoleum for shelter from the storm. And while he was in there, he wound up falling through the floor and he landed in a massive pit of skeletons.

[Katherine]

No, that only happens in cartoon movies.

[Gina]

And this one time in Edinburgh. Yeah.

[Katherine]

Oh, no. That is, like. Okay, you know, like, on my list of, like, things that will never happen to me, but I am still afraid of. That is one of those things.

[Gina]

It's, like, horrifying.

[Katherine]

It's like my quicksand. Like, that is one of the things that I am, like, God, that was so bad.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Landing in a pit of skeletons. That is. Ugh.

[Gina]

Yeah. And from what I was reading, like, there. There are a few different accounts of the story, so it's hard to know what's true and what's not true, but most of them say that, like, once this guy fell in, it was that exact. Like, how. Holy shit. How could this be happening? And the adrenaline took over, and he somehow was able to, like, just claw his way out of the pit and he sprinted away. And somebody, I think, like, saw him sprinting away and asked him what had happened. So we told him, and that's why we have the story now.

[Katherine]

But. Okay.

[Gina]

Horrifying.

[Katherine]

Oh, God. And I totally believe that he could do that. That is, like, right? Still also cartoony. You, like, jump into the air and zoom.

[Gina]

It's like, you know, in Scooby Doo, with the running. With her legs, of course. Yeah. Their legs are moving, but they haven't started moving yet. Yes. It's like that.

[Katherine]

The moment you said fell into a pit of skeletons. That is exactly what I imagined. Like, we are. Are we just, like, a Scooby Doo reenactment podcast.

[Gina]

Scooby Doo and the Muppets. Yeah. We would later find out that it was a mass grave containing the bodies of plague victims, like I was talking about earlier. But that. Yeah, it does nothing to lessen the creepy factor. Like, it's still horrible.

[Katherine]

I know that. Oh, yeah, that makes it worse because it's, like, now it's sad, too.

[Gina]

I know. Yeah. Ever since then, there have been whispers and rumors that that incident is what caused Bloody MacKenzie to, quote, wake up. But stories of George's spirit haunting that cemetery had started to appear. Like, before that thing happened with falling through the floor. In one story, a kid ran away from his school because his school was, like, right next to the cemetery. And to hide from his teachers. I know. It's so British. And to hide from his teachers, he broke into the black mausoleum. And we don't know what happened while he was in there, but reportedly, when they found him, he was in a state of absolute hysteria. Apparently, he never truly recovered from this, and he never spoke of what he had seen.

[Katherine]

Ooh, yeah. Yeah, that's creepy, because that's. How old did you say he was? Or did you not.

[Gina]

Sure. He was just a school kid, so, like, under 12, probably.

[Katherine]

Okay, so he wasn't, like, in high school. That's one of those, like, it could literally just be he realized, oh, there's a dead body in here. And now, like, that is traumatizing in and of itself. But the fact that he, like, wouldn't talk about it, I feel like that eventually is a thing that a child would get over.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Or, you know, like, be able to articulate or whatever. It could be just that.

[Gina]

And it's one of those stories. It's more of. It's a story people tell each other. It's not a story you can read about in the newspaper. So everything take it with a grain of salt. I choose to believe it because it's more interesting that way, naturally. But, yeah, it's not just, like, a few people here and there reporting, like, paranormal encounters near that grave. They number in the hundreds, if not thousands. Like, a conservative estimate is 400 reports.

[Katherine]

That's interesting.

[Gina]

So I'm going to explain a few of the things that people have reported, like seeing and feeling and hearing. So you got the normal stuff, like a cold spot. Also feelings of suffocation or being, like, feeling like they can't breathe. But also, like I mentioned at the start, actual physical attacks, like being pushed or choked, having your hair pulled. Or. This one creeps me out the most. Having your Legs grabbed. Ooh. Ooh. Yep. And it's not just they would feel these things and then be fine. People will go home with, like, scratches, bruises, choke marks around their neck, even burns that they cannot explain. And often these things will be underneath their clothes. So you'll have, like, a scratch on your arm but nothing disturbed. Like, the clothing you were wearing. Nothing broke through that.

[Katherine]

Yeah. That is, like, demonic. Like, that's very rare for just a standard ghost.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

To, like, physically harm you in a way that sticks.

[Gina]

And one thing that I find extra creepy about Bloody McKenzie is that when he picks on people, like, if you're in a group of people, he'll pick one.

[Katherine]

Oh, that's. That's mean, right?

[Gina]

Like, it's so creepy.

[Katherine]

Is it the one. Is it, like, the one that he is, like, profiling to be. Oh, like. Oh, they, like.

[Gina]

Yeah, like a Presbyterian.

[Katherine]

That's why maybe. Do we have, like. Do we have a, like, list of people he's targeted? Can we, like, go through and judge them and see?

[Gina]

I did actually try to find, like, a record or something, but I couldn't find anything. I mean, there's accounts you can find online, but not, like, a centralized account.

[Katherine]

I was gonna say that would be very rare. Like, how often do you find. Yeah, that would be so. Oh, my God. Wait. That would be so cool if there was, like, for each haunting, you have, like, a record of the people who. There's, like, a database of people, like. Oh, you can, like. Should we invent this?

[Gina]

We could call it Spooky Pedia.

[Katherine]

Stop. We have to edit this out, because I really want to invent this. We got to take this over to Shark Tank.

[Gina]

Hello, Sharks. If that's your real name.

[Katherine]

Oh, you're looking for a real name? We got a database full of Cookie.

[Gina]

Pediatch, and that's our whole page.

[Katherine]

That's. So that's our pitch, and we just drop our mics and start.

[Gina]

And then there's people in ghost costumes.

[Katherine]

That come dance the Scooby Doo. It's the Scooby Doo theme.

[Gina]

Yes.

[Katherine]

Oh, my God.

[Gina]

All right, we're heading to Hollywood. Okay. Oh, yeah. So Bloody MacKenzie tends to pick one person to the point where tour guides will say, if the person next to you collapses, don't worry because you're fine.

[Katherine]

Like, fully. Every man for himself. Seriously.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Situation. Oh, God. Oh, my God. I never. I, like. I want to visit this place and also never want to go there because I would be both flattered and so offended if I was chosen.

[Gina]

And it's Apparently I've read that. It's because I haven't been there. I've read that it's one of those places where you go there and you can feel it.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I imagine so. That's very oppressive. That has so much awful history in it. I'm wondering. I have another rumor to start. Slash conspiracy to theorize. What if Bloody McKenzie isn't actually a man? What if, like, he was just some dude, a demon possessed him, and now it's like, the demon of Bloody McKenzie trapped. He's. He's trapped by the spirits of the people that possessed the one chick who killed him. And now they are keeping him there and he's mad about it, so he's lashing out.

[Gina]

And it's a church graveyard, so maybe he can't get out.

[Katherine]

He's, like, burning.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Oh, my God. We solved the mystery of bloody mackenzie. Call everybody. Oh, my God. Call the king or whatever. I don't know what's going on over there right now.

[Gina]

I don't fucking know, Chucky.

[Katherine]

This would actually make so much sense, because what if. So, like, his death was a mystery, right? What if it was the demon leaving his body that killed him and then.

[Gina]

The demon went to the graveyard?

[Katherine]

Yeah, because. Because the other spirits that were with, like, story still stands. Like, she goes to kill him, discovers what's happening to free him of this demon. She does some magical spell. Now she's a witch in this story I just discovered. Frees him of the demon, body can't handle it. He dies. Demon gets dragged into the grave by.

[Gina]

These, now surviving by eating the energy that the Covenanters gave off while they were imprisoned there. Because, remember, the mausoleum is only yards away from where they were imprisoned.

[Katherine]

This is an intense situation.

[Gina]

We did it.

[Katherine]

We solved the mystery of MacKenzie. After all these years.

[Gina]

All it took was two hot bitches and a couple of microphones.

[Katherine]

Cheers. And that's the story.

[Gina]

Bye, creepy.

[Katherine]

Okay, okay, I'm ready for more.

[Gina]

Another thing about the way that bloody Mackenzie attacks people is that his attacks tend to follow a pattern. There will be short periods of time with a lot of activity, like a lot of reported incidents and attacks and things like that. And then there will be a period of silence followed by an extreme outburst of violence. So, one example.

[Katherine]

Sorry to interrupt, but just real quick. What? Do you know what the time frames are? Is this, like, all in one day or, like, weeks and months, or.

[Gina]

No, it doesn't say. Just that it'll be a lot and then nothing, and then a big thing. So one Example of this. And we'll talk more about this guy later. There's a guy who started a ghost tour company, and they do ghost tours, like, in Greyfriars Kirkyard. And he started that company specifically to research the lore behind Bloody MacKenzie. He's written two books about him. Like, he knows all about him. And when his first book on Bloody MacKenzie was published, it was during that period of silence. And then within like, a day, his house caught on fire and burned to the ground. And he lived right next to the cemetery.

[Katherine]

Oh.

[Gina]

So, like, when he. He's done interviews about this and he just says, like, I just think Bloody McKenzie didn't like the book. He just wasn't a fan.

[Katherine]

Yo, this is all, like. I feel like these. This is so demonic. I'm sorry. I'm, like, fully landing on this totally demonic thing because, like, it really, truly does have other people, like, presented this theory that, like, a demon is involved. Okay. Okay.

[Gina]

Yeah. There's all sorts of theories.

[Katherine]

Okay. Because I really. I don't think we clarified at the beginning. I know nothing about this story. So I'm like, what the fuck? Fire. People have said, Was everyone okay?

[Gina]

Everyone was fine. Yeah. Nobody died, luckily. But, yeah, people have talked about the demon thing. They've talked about, oh, it's a poltergeist. It's a spirit. There's also a theory that it's a pheromone cloud.

[Katherine]

What the. Is that?

[Gina]

So you know. Yeah, like pheromones, right? Like. Like the.

[Katherine]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Give off and.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I have a pheromone plug to make Cinnamon less psycho.

[Gina]

Yeah. Like that. There's a theory that. Because. And I'm going to oversimplify this because I can't remember the exact details, basically, so much pain and negative emotion went into that space in Greyfriars Kirkyard because 1, cemetery, 2, old site of a prison, 3, bunch of hauntings and people being nerv and anxious. People give off pheromones when they're feeling that way. And so they think that those pheromones have clustered on that site, which makes people more prone to feel like they're getting attacked or like they're seeing something that they're not. Nobody really, like that I read, actually believes that theory. It's seen as very, like, out there and can't really explain what's actually going on, but it is a theory that exists.

[Katherine]

What the fuck is that? Like, what is a pheromone? Like, I understand. Like, have you ever seen you can buy perfume? That's like, this has Love pheromones. And this has whatever pheromones. And, like, you want to attract men or do you want to attract, like. And I'm just like, is this fake? Like, what is this? What is a pheromone? And, like, I understand when that. We give them off in situations. How do you bottle it? Where does it come from? Is it a gland situation? Like, I have. I'm realizing I have no idea what a pheromone is. So if you are a pheromonologist, please email [e-mail] because what are you doing? What is that? What is a pheromone cloud?

[Gina]

I feel the same about pheromones as I do gallbladders, know they exist. And that's about the end of it.

[Katherine]

Yeah, back to the demons.

[Gina]

Okay. Yeah, back to the demons. So in response to, like, all of these attacks, a priest or a minister, the accounts kind of vary, was brought to exorcise George's tomb in the early 2000s. And the most common version of this story has the exorcism going horribly wrong. Allegedly this holy man, priest, minister, whatever, he was abandoned, the exorcism in the middle of the ritual and collapsed. He was fine. He lived, but he fainted. But there are stories of a second exorcism performed by a separate priest who also failed in the attempt and died of a heart attack shortly after.

[Katherine]

Oh, no.

[Gina]

So, like, this is all kind of hearsay. Details are vague. But if George Mackenzie is haunting Greyfriars Kirkyard, like, his ghost or spirit is too powerful to banish through ordinary means, like, we've tried. We're not getting rid of this guy. You look like you have something to say.

[Katherine]

The thing I have to say is I don't know if I want to visit this place or not. I love, like, visiting a haunted place. And this would be the ultimate haunted cemetery to visit. And I'm kind of. I'm, like, too scared.

[Gina]

And even if it do go, you can't get up close to the black mausoleum anymore. It's. They've like, okay.

[Katherine]

I was gonna wait and see if you said to protect people. Yeah, I was wondering because a. It's been broken into multiple times, which automatically you're gonna. You know, once there's a repeat of stuff like that, I feel like people take action. But the fact that actual, real, tangible things have happened to the people that have, like, that's an extra.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Are people just affected if they get close to the mausoleum, or is it everywhere in the cemetery?

[Gina]

Okay, so it's most concentrated about the mausoleum. But over time, reportedly, George Mackenzie's spirit has grown more powerful and he no longer just haunts the cemetery. He can also be found in buildings where he spent a lot of time in his life and in other areas of the cemetery as well. But it's also worth noting that Grayfri, like, he is not the only ghost that haunts Greyfriars. It's a very, very haunted cemetery. So some people might be reporting something as him when really it's a different spirit or something like that.

[Katherine]

Okay.

[Gina]

Yeah.

[Katherine]

Which is so interesting because I feel like we've talked about this before, but typically, traditionally, the standard cemetery is usually not very haunted. But, like, it makes sense why this one would be. Because the reason cemeteries aren't usually that haunted is because there's just bodies there. Like, these people's spirits were never there. Which I'm going to elaborate that in my episode, so I'm not going to say any more than that, but, like, it makes sense why this would be so haunted. Because there was so much negative energy before it became, like, just a cemetery.

[Gina]

Yeah. And the area that used to be the Covenanters prison, that also has a lot of reports of paranormal activity around there as well. Again, because, like, people, like, people's spirits were there and were brutally tortured and then killed there. So, like, there's there's all sorts of shit that goes on.

[Katherine]

Even if, like, their full energy wasn't there, like. Or their full spirit isn't there, like, the energy of the things that happened to them when they were there would still. Energy sticks that, like, dives into the question of, like, what is a haunting? Like, you can walk into a room where someone just had a fight and feel, like the negative energy. Couple that with a cemetery with a torturous prison with, like, all this misery and mayhem and, like, that's going to be overwhelming whether there are actual ghosts there or not, you know, and people.

[Gina]

A lot of people do visit Greyfriars Kirkyard for, like. Like, like, paranormal investigators visit. And also just normal tourists like it. I think it gets around 2 million visitors a year. So it's. It's a very highly, like, heavily trafficked cemetery. Like, 2 million a year is a lot for a cemetery.

[Katherine]

Well, and also. So another question I have is, like, are people still getting buried there, or is this, like, an old cemetery that's not. Like, are there people visiting their grandma in the cemetery?

[Gina]

Yes, people are still buried in Greyfriars.

[Katherine]

Because if it was strictly just an old Ass cemetery that, you know, people only go to on tours or investigations or whatever, that's one thing. But now you also. So that's more energy that's added there because now you have all the energy of, like, the new people being buried that are like, what the fuck?

[Gina]

Like a hot spot.

[Katherine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

So, like, things like ghost tours and paranormal tours are super common through there. Like, it's one of the big spots that they always hit. And I want to. Going back to that guy I mentioned earlier, the one whose house was set on fire, and the guy who wrote two books. His name is Jan Andrew Henderson. And the two books in question, I'll link to them in the show notes. They're called Father Figure and the Ghost that Haunted Itself. And I wanted to end this story by reading you a quote from him about Bloody MacKenzie, because I think it really, like, sums up kind of what I want to get across. So this is from him. I don't know what the Mackenzie Poltergeist really is. I don't know if it's a supernatural entity, a pheromone cloud, a demon, or a set of psychosomatic and hysterical reactions. All have been suggested, but it has become the best documented supernatural case of all time and probably the most conclusive. Let me put it this if the Mackenzie Poltergeist isn't a genuine supernatural entity, then I don't think there's any such thing, not anywhere in the world.

[Katherine]

Okay. I decided I do want to go there.

[Gina]

Bloody McKenzie. I know. I want to go there with you.

[Katherine]

That's nuts. Yeah, that's. That's quite a claim to say if this isn't a ghost, I don't know what is, essentially.

[Gina]

Yeah. And he's an act. Like this is his life. Like, he's written books on this. Like he. He knows his, you know. Damn interesting.

[Katherine]

That's very interesting.

[Gina]

So. Story of Bloody mackenzie asshole.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know anything about that. I knew that. I mean, I know that Scotland is known to be, like, very. They have a lot of, like, ancient hauntings.

[Gina]

Yes. Edinburgh.

[Katherine]

I knew that.

[Gina]

So haunted.

[Katherine]

Yeah, I know that. That. That's one that pops up when I do my, like, most haunted cities in the world searches to plan out our next vacation. That is one that always is top. Top five, maybe even three. Yeah, it comes up very often. So I knew that, but I never knew why. Like, I don't know the stories of Scotland specifically.

[Gina]

I think the next time you come over and visit us in England, I think we should do a detour to Scotland at some point and do.

[Katherine]

That is definitely. Yeah, ghost stuff.

[Gina]

I looked it up and it would take us eight hours to drive to Edinburgh from where I live.

[Katherine]

Okay. Yeah, that's too far for. Because if we. I mean that's a full day of just driving, then we could just have a 20 minute plane ride. Yeah.

[Gina]

So plane ride it is.

[Katherine]

Okay.

[Gina]

When it happens.

[Katherine]

Cool.

[Gina]

And you guys are welcome to come too.

[Katherine]

Oh yeah, I forgot, we're still recording. Yes, you are invited to. I don't know how to pronounce the cemetery name. I'm sorry, but you are invited too close to gray Fry. Fry fryers. Gray friars?

[Gina]

Yeah, like a gray fryer.

[Katherine]

Gray fryer. Okay. That's what I thought it was. But I wasn't sure if that was like. If you were saying something else and I was just like putting words I knew onto what you were saying. Do you know what I mean?

[Gina]

Actually, I have a fun fact about the name Grey Friars and where it comes from.

[Katherine]

Yeah, tell me.

[Gina]

Okay. What do you fucking call a place where monks live?

[Katherine]

I. Oh, a monastery.

[Gina]

Monastery. It was the home of a monastery and the. The monks or the friars there all wore gray robes. So. Gray Friars. That's where it comes from.

[Katherine]

This was fascinating. I'm so happy you told this story because I didn't know about it and now I do.

[Gina]

You know what I mean?

[Katherine]

I'm like, I'm like. I'm like, I gotta.

[Gina]

A lot happen and we covered like decades of British history in the span of like an hour. So. Yeah, I get it.

[Katherine]

Yeah. I need to go. I almost said decompose. I need to go decompress.

[Gina]

I'll just exhume ya.

[Katherine]

Yeah, good. I'm gonna go protect my neck from Gina. But yeah. Thank you for joining us. Until next time, keep it cool.

[Gina]

Keep it creepy.