EP 113: Worship Beyond the Stage: Living a Lifestyle of True Worship (Romans 12)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: In Totality with Megan Ashley

Episode 113: Worship Beyond the Stage – Living a Lifestyle of True Worship (Romans 12)
Date: April 28, 2026
Host: Megan Ashley
Guest: Trey Heflin

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Episode Overview

In this moving and insightful episode, Megan Ashley welcomes Trey Heflin—worship leader, creative director, and member of the 2819 Worship team—for a transparent conversation about what it means to live a life of true worship. Centered around Romans 12, the discussion explores the idea that worship extends far beyond the stage or Sunday service—it's about becoming a living sacrifice and letting every aspect of our lives reflect devotion to God. Through personal stories, biblical insights, and practical wisdom, Megan and Trey challenge listeners to examine their own posture of worship and relationship with God.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Trey Heflin – The Man Behind the Worship (05:00)

• Background: Trey shares his roots in Johnston, SC—a small town with “two lights you can drive through in 15 minutes”—and his journey through the Southeast before settling in Atlanta in 2020.
• Family Life: Trey is a husband and father to two young boys, reflecting on the joys and challenges of balancing ministry and family.
• Ministry Timeline: Trey has always been drawn to music—from singing around the house at age five to leading worship at sixteen.

2. Navigating Pace & Ministry Growth (10:44)

• Rapid Change: Trey describes the whirlwind of increasing responsibilities at 2819, moving from “wearing 17 hats”—media, worship, and production—to focusing on creative direction.
• Finding Rhythm: He seeks guidance from elders, his pastor, and wife on how to manage the demands, sharing how “journaling helps get things out of my head and onto paper.”

  “If you put it on paper, you’ll find yourself not feeling like everything is an urgent big rock.” (12:10, Trey)

3. Balancing Ministry and Family (13:50)

• First Ministry is Home: Trey and Megan dive into the biblical charge to steward one’s home before the church (referencing 1 Timothy).
• Unlearning Ministry Sacrifice Culture: Trey shares how he’s working to avoid giving his family ‘leftovers’—a pattern he witnessed in previous generations of ministry.

  “You don't, like, sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry for the sake of the succession of ministry. If your family is failing, then your whole life is failing.” (16:20, Trey)

4. Pressure, Leadership, and Learning Gentleness (17:01)

• Handling Increased Responsibility: Trey recounts his transition to overseeing worship, production, and creative teams—admitting it was overwhelming and required intentional growth.
• Leadership Growth: He learns, especially through his wife, to lace leadership and correction in love rather than strictness.

  “Say it, but lace that thing with a little bit more love. Let them know you care about them too.” (20:00, Trey)

5. Encountering God Beyond "Big Moments" (24:08)

• Unexpected Lesson: Trey vulnerably shares a recent season of not “feeling” God’s presence in big ways—and realizing God is often found in the “still, small whisper.”

  “You’re looking for big moments to let you know that you’re close… but He’s not in the earthquake, He’s not in the wind… He’s in the still, small whisper.” (25:16, Trey)

• Slowing Down: Megan and Trey reflect on trying to force spiritual growth at their own pace, wrestling with the truth “the slower I go, the faster I arrive.” (27:08, Megan)

6. Redefining Worship—From Songs to Sacrifice (29:27)

• Personal Shift: Trey shares his transformative encounter in 2016 with Stephanie Gretzinger’s worship set, which reshaped his understanding of worship from performance to relationship.

  “It invited me into the love of the Lord—He wants relationship, not just to do what I’m told.” (34:12, Trey)

• Living Out Worship: The conversation moves from worship as performance to worship as the truth of one's life and actions.

  “The way I lived made songs true. I started asking, ‘is this song true to me?’” (36:30, Trey)

7. Romans 12 and The Living Sacrifice (38:25)

• Defining a Worshiper: Trey builds from Romans 12, explaining that worship is a right response to a right revelation of Christ—“a continual thank you to the Lord.”

  “If your life doesn’t say thank you, if it’s not an incense of thank you to the Lord...you may be a churchgoer, but not a true worshiper.” (44:00, Trey)

• God Wants What Costs You: The sacrifice must be what God desires—not just any sacrifice, referencing the intention behind Old Testament worship.

  “You say He can have your house or your car, but He wants that bitterness in your heart.” (45:54, Trey)

8. Giving God What He Wants (47:47)

• Total Ownership: Worship means every part of our bodies and lives belong to God—not just our minds or hearts but "everything you do in this body."
• Costly Worship: Drawing on David from 2 Samuel: “I dare not give God anything that did not cost me.” (49:54, Trey)

9. Personal Relationship & Obedience (63:09)

• Ask God Directly: Megan and Trey emphasize the importance of asking God for guidance on personal decisions—even (or especially) difficult ones.

  “If you are afraid to ask Him, that fear reveals an idol.” (65:00, Megan)

• Individual Conviction: True relationship means obedience—even if God’s asks differ from others.

10. The Goal is God—Not His Gifts (56:19)

• God is the Prize: They challenge “Jesus plus” Christianity, reminding listeners God Himself is the reward, not what He can give.

  “You came to the faith to get God. If you don’t see Him as the prize, you’re missing it.” (56:34, Megan)

• Marvel at the Mystery: God desires to make His home in us—not just grant us gifts or remove sin, but to dwell with us.

11. Trust and Surrender (70:28)

• Trust in God’s Goodness: Megan recites her mantra—if something is withheld or removed, it’s for our good. God has a flawless track record.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Living Worship, Not Just Leading Worship

  • “The way that I lived made songs true.” (36:30, Trey)
  • “If your life doesn't reflect thank you to the Lord, it's not worship at all.” (44:24, Trey)

• The Cost of Worship

  • “I dare not give God anything that did not cost me.” (49:54, Trey)
  • “If it don’t cost you something, is it actually worship?” (47:19, Trey)

• On God as the Ultimate Goal

  • “You came to the faith to get God. If you don't see Him as the prize, you're missing it. He is the thing. He is the prize. Not His hand, but Him.” (56:34, Megan)

• Sacrifice and Obedience

  • “If you're afraid to ask him, that fear reveals an idol.” (65:00, Megan)
  • “Whatever he's convicting you to do, you need to do it regardless of what anybody else is doing.” (67:45, Megan)

• Relationship Over Ritual

  • “He made His dwelling place in me. It’s a mystery and I don’t fully understand it yet.” (59:09, Trey)
  • “He’s not in the earthquake… He’s in the still, small whisper.” (25:16, Trey)

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Important Timestamps

• Trey’s Background & Family Life: 05:00-08:15
• Navigating Ministry Growth & Rhythm: 10:44-13:49
• Balancing Family and Ministry: 13:50-16:30
• Handling Pressure & Leadership Growth: 17:01-20:00
• Unexpected with God—Finding Him in Stillness: 24:08-27:53
• Worship Shift—From Performance to Relationship: 29:27-36:43
• Defining True Worship (Romans 12): 38:25-44:27
• Giving God What He Wants: 45:54-49:54
• God as the Ultimate Prize: 56:19-62:49
• Personal Conviction, Obedience, and Sacrifice: 63:09-69:34
• Trusting God’s Character: 70:28-71:22
• Writing and Releasing “For Christ Alone”: 71:24-75:26
• Journal Prompt & Closing Thoughts: 76:18-end

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Journal Prompt (76:21)

Trey's Reflective Question:

“At the end of your life, what would you be able to say that you know about Christ? Did knowing Him challenge you in a way—not just internally, but in what you did externally?”

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Final Reflections

Megan and Trey's conversation is an open-hearted call to believers to move past the surface of worship into the depth of relationship—one marked by sacrifice, obedience, reverence, and awe. Listeners are challenged to slow down, marvel at the cross, and let every aspect of their daily lives be an act of worship. The episode stands as both a loving correction and an encouragement: True worship is not about songs or stages, but about becoming a living sacrifice for the One who gave everything.

"If your life doesn't say thank you to the Lord, it's not worship at all." (44:00, Trey)

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, Tora Couture here. I'm the host of Tell Me what Happened, a podcast that shares true stories of people helping people. We have a ton of amazing new episodes, including one of my favorite stories we've ever done. Listen to season six of Tell Me what Happened. Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up. I think kid is walking up the slide. Really? Auto trader. Buy your car online? Really? What's up, family? Before we jump into today's episode, I want to share something close to my heart. Our In Totality Patreon community, the Village. If you ever listen to the podcast and you thought, wow, I really wish there was more. This is exactly why I created this space. You'll receive early access to every episode, so while others are hearing it for the first time, you'll already be watching it and soaking it in. But it's not just that. You'll also get access to the In Totality docuseries, which is like my Vlo, which shows what I do when I'm not on the podcast. And that's not it. You'll also be the first to know about merch drops, events and opportunities to connect in real life. One of my favorite parts is our Bible study and book clubs where we're walking through scripture together and encouraging one another in the faith. On Patreon, we are building a community that truly desires a relationship with the Lord, pursues truth, and supports one another, and I would love for you to be a part of that. So if you want more, come join the Village on Patre. The link is in the description and I can't wait to see you there. Trey Heflin, how do you find your pace?

[B]

One of the challenges that I think I find myself in the most is I live up here for worship. It became this thing of like, living my life for the Lord, not just singing songs to the Lord. This is the least.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

This is the least that I could do for everything that you've done. You say that I can have your house and I can have your car and your family, but I want that bitterness that you got sitting in your heart.

[A]

Trey, watch your mouth.

[B]

I'm not worshiping to get a thing from you.

[A]

I just get you.

[B]

I just get you.

[A]

I just get you. I just be wanting to know. Did you ask?

[B]

Did you ask him?

[A]

Did you.

[B]

Because he asked. He cares more than you think.

[A]

Did you ask? Whatever he's convicting you to do, you need to do it regardless of what anybody else is doing.

[B]

Why don't you do that? Because I love him.

[A]

Let me give you another one.

[B]

Because he loves me and he proved that to me. He showed me that he loved me. He gave up everything, and I can't give up this.

[A]

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I'm your host, Megan Ashley. This is my first episode of season three with a guest, and I'm so excited that my first guest. This is their first podcast. I've been waiting to have this conversation for some time, and he so graciously accepted our invitation. And so I want to introduce to you guys my brother. I love him. I'm so appreciative of him. Trey Heflin.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Yay. Virtual claps. How are you?

[B]

I'm good.

[A]

Yeah?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does it feel to be on your first podcast?

[B]

Uh, it's. It's. It's nerve wracking. It's a. It's a lot. It's a lot.

[A]

I didn't realize how nervous you got until after the Blameless concert. I was like, I would have never knew that. You get nervous.

[B]

Yeah, a lot, actually. All. All the time. It's.

[A]

It's something on stage or just in general?

[B]

Well, on stage, like, anything that has to do with public anything is actually like. I think I'd be like, man, I got social anxiety or something like that.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I don't know what it is, but I do get. I do get nervous. Like, I'm actually very much so an

[A]

introvert because the you be hopping and bopping off that stage. Huh?

[B]

Huh? It's a lot.

[A]

I'm like, I would have never guessed.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's God.

[A]

That's how you know, right? He has the holy spirit for sure. Well, I'm so thankful that you decided to, you know, make your first appearance on a podcast on In Totality. When I thought about this season, I had been really challenged to do a lot of solo episodes. Like, I felt like the Lord was challenging me a lot because having a conversation is way more comfortable for me. And I felt like the Lord was challenging me. And so I did make a list. I was talking to my assistant, Nicole, and I was making a list on the people that I did want to talk to, and you were top of my list. I was like, I want to talk to Trey because I feel like he has a lot to say. So I'm really excited that you're here. I Feel like if you guys have been watching 2819, then you obviously know who Trey is. But we don't know who Trey is. Right. And so tell us about you. What do you want us to know about you?

[B]

I am from South Carolina.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. South Carolina. Small town in South Carolina. It's called Johnston, South Carolina. You can. It has, like, two lights. You can drive through it in 15 minutes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It is actually not a big. Big city or town or whatever you want to call it. And was there maybe, like, eight or nine years, and then I moved kind of further south towards, like, north Augusta, then Augusta, Georgia, and all of those surrounding areas and so on and so forth. And then as I grew up and got older, ended up coming, the Lord called me to Atlanta. Was not actually desire of mine.

[A]

I feel like anybody who really loves the Lord says the same thing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't think it's. It's only God's will for people to be in Atlanta. No. I don't think anybody just wakes up and is like, yeah, I want to go to a. You know what?

[A]

But I think there are people.

[B]

I don't know why. I don't know why it's so interesting.

[A]

It's a very interesting place. It's almost like culture shock.

[B]

Yeah, it's a huge culture shock because I'm a country quiet kid, so it's like, I grew up in the country. You got your smell of cows and chickens and things of that nature or whatever, all the different things.

[A]

Did you know the farm?

[B]

No, no, no. We didn't own the farm. You just drove by a lot of those places. You could smell it from miles away. Just all the different things or whatnot. But country, born and raised, culture shock, moving to Atlanta. 30 years old, married, have a beautiful wife.

[A]

I love her. Two baby boys who I can't wait to babysit. I've been begging for at least two years.

[B]

Yes. Yes. She actually. She said she texted you.

[A]

Yes and asked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. So I can't wait. Yes. I'm excited. It's on a Thursday.

[B]

So super excited about just being married. She's just an amazing person. I love her with my whole life, and she gave me two beautiful baby

[A]

boys, and they are, like, perfect. Every time I see them, I want to bite them. Oh, I just love them.

[B]

Yep. There's this ongoing debate about who they look like more, and I show people baby pictures of me.

[A]

I need to see this.

[B]

And they look exactly like me when I was like, a kid.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I know that Khajari looks like me,

[A]

because I think they look like your wife.

[B]

See, and that's a caveat. Now, maybe, but you have to look at the baby pictures to really get the full context. But Kahari looks like my wife for sure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. So moved to Atlanta. And you said you moved to Atlanta. What year?

[B]

2020.

[A]

2020. Okay. And that's when you joined Victory at the time. Victory at the time. Now, was worship a part of your life prior to coming to Atlanta? So when did that start for you?

[B]

Well, according to my mom, I had been singing around the house and things of that nature since I was, like, maybe, like, four or five. She. She literally tells this story, and it's like I'm sitting on the toilet four or five years old, singing about, you know, singing this song about Jesus or whatnot. And so for her recollection, it's been about four or five years. For mine, it's maybe like 12. I think I was, like, 12, singing in kids choir, things of that nature and so on and so forth. And then actually leading worship when I was, like, 16.

[A]

Wow. Okay.

[B]

So it's been like, little over a decade, stuff like that, of just, like, actually leading worship. So I was always a part of my life from that point.

[A]

Got it. So you moved to Atlanta 2020, and you joined Victory, and then you said you left. Right. You went to Florida, and then you came back. When you came back, victory was 2819. 2819. And now here we are, what, two years, three years later. Three years later, and everything has changed.

[B]

A lot.

[A]

A lot has changed. Not everything has changed, but a lot has changed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was talking to you before we got started, and I'm like. I was thinking about how I was introduced to you, and when we first started coming to 2819, it was at west side in a middle school auditorium with no air. I mean, just a hot box, hot sauna at the church, like it was. So I remember I was like. I would try to, like, dress and be cute for church, like, twice. And I was like, there's no point in this. Number one, I'm crying all the time. Number two, it's hot and I'm sweating like it used to be. Y'. All. Y' all greenbrier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Y' all ain't got it bad. Like, we had it on west side, right? But when I first. When I first was introduced to you, I remember. I will never forget this Sunday. It was a Sunday. You walked us in, sat us, picked up a camera, saying led worship Got off the stage, picked up a camera, walked us off. And I'm like, this man has 17 jobs in the church. So what has this experience been like for you? Going from doing all the things because you were over the media team, and now you're strictly doing. No, no, you're still over the media team.

[B]

I'm over all things creative worship and production.

[A]

Wow. I didn't know that. Jesus. Are you tired?

[B]

It's a little bit. A little bit. It's just a recent transition, but.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. But I remember you being like. I mean, physically having cameras in your hand, doing all the things, and now things are just a little different. But what has this last three years, or maybe not even three, the last maybe year and a half, I think it's probably fair to say, is when everything has kind of.

[B]

Yeah, I think that it has been very overwhelming, in a good way. Okay, it's been very overwhelming in a good way, but it's been a lot of change very fast. And me, I'm kind of like the person where it's like, let me get my foothold and in a thing first and then, you know, ready to move on to the next thing. Not happening. Not happening in the slightest. And it's been, and Pastor Philip calls it rhythms, not balance. And so as a byproduct of that, I've been having. I feel like I've been trying to find a new rhythm every six months. Like, just a different rhythm every six months, trying to figure out what's next, what's happening here. We started off with just doing Sunday gatherings. Now we got access happening. Now we got crusades happening, all the different things. And then just changes in just, you know, from, like, my position and things of that nature. So just more responsibility, which is honestly a privilege. And just to be trusted in that way is definitely one of those things where it's just kind of like pacing.

[A]

How do you find your pace? Like, how do you navigate through that?

[B]

I talk to elders, I talk to pastor, I talk to my wife. And this is more so of a recent thing, because one of the challenges that I think I find myself in the most is I live up here. And so because I live up here, I'd be like, I'm gonna just try to do my best to deal with it up here so that I can still do all the things that I need to do in just everyday life or, like, if my boys need something or whatever the case may be. It's one of those things where it's just kind of like I Can't be up here because if I'm up here too much, it's. Everything else is like, tuned out sometimes. And so it's like, now I'm trying to get into this habit of actually talking to people who have more wisdom than I do and who has a lot more stuff than I do from a responsibility standpoint. They've been around, they've had all the experiences and so on and so forth and so pulling on that, like, hey, what is the best way to do. So one of the things that I'm going to try to get back into doing is actually journaling. So instead of being up here, put it out. Elder Milton actually said, he was like, if you put it on here, it's there. So it's not. Not as urgent as you feel like it is when it's up here. So if you get it out there, get it out there, put it on paper, you'll find yourself not feeling like. Cause that's how I kind of live if it comes to my plate. It's urgent. And so trying to navigate that space of like, everything is in a big rock, you know what I mean? And so trying to figure that out and trying to understand that have not mastered it. I'm still learning it, still working through it, still having a lot of conversations to be able to best figure out those modes or whatnot. Especially after you leave from, like, the office and then having to come home and be a husband and having to be a father and all the different things, and making. Trying to live in a way that my family doesn't get less than me, than office and workplace.

[A]

Okay. Because I wanted to talk to you about that because I've grown up around ministry, grew up around families who were in ministry. And it was always such a challenge. And it always felt like the family always got the leftover. And with the pace at which 2819 is growing, the pace at which the worship, the 2819 worship is growing, how are you managing that balance between your ministry, but your first ministry, you know what I'm saying? Like, how are you navigating through that? And you have young babies.

[B]

I mean, you have babies two and six months.

[A]

Yeah. Like, you got baby babies, baby babies.

[B]

And it actually stemmed from a conversation that me and my wife was having. Just stuff that I was reading in the Word. And I believe it's in Timothy where he says, like, how can you manage or how can you handle a steward, God's church, but you can't manage your home type deal. And I'm paraphrasing And so that kind of stuck with me because in my mind, I grew up having family members is always in ministry and having male figures that were always in ministry, and they was like going, going, going, doing the ministry thing, preaching, preaching, preaching, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And they would come home, you know, and the wives would be home cooking and so on and so forth, or whatever the case may be. They'll be sitting on the couch. You know, if they weren't doing ministry things, they were just kind of like, just there. One of the things that I've been trying to unlearn, rather, is this idea that because I'm in ministry, you know what I mean? I gotta run hard, run hard, run hard, and they'll understand and try to get away from that and more. So, like, yes, we have this responsibility. And there may be rhythms where it's like, I have to lean into that more, but that shouldn't be the norm. That shouldn't be, like, the base norm where it's like, ministry only gets, like, the excess of me, and then my family gets leftovers of me. And that's something that me and my wife. My wife actually leaned into me and challenged me to kind of like to really understand what that actually is and what that is supposed to look like. And realizing that through scripture and just kind of watching a lot of podcasts surrounding men and just what that looks like, it's like, no, like, you don't, like, sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry for the sake of the succession of ministry. It's kind of like. Or if your family is failing, then your whole life is failing.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

You know what I mean? And so that's kind of how I kind of wired that. Because the Lord wouldn't. If that was the case, then I don't believe that the Lord would have wanted me, allow me to be married if that was the case.

[A]

I'm curious, too. At what. Because I feel like you're a person that takes responsibility really serious. And I'm curious of how you've navigated through this big responsibility, like, even just moving from, like, west side to Greenbrier. Like, I know that there was a dynamic change and there was a shift. Right. And it put more responsibility on you. What was that like? What has that been like for you to carry that responsibility?

[B]

Deep diving. Deep. No, no, no, it's good. I think that one of the major changes that had took place happened. It was one of those things where it's just kind of like R. Trey, you know, so Literally, we were trying to figure out a lot of, like, dynamics. Like, if I was just gonna be solely in the worship space, you know. Cause I was leading the creative team at the time. And so it was kind of like all of those different things and navigating the big jump to now having to oversee all three. And so I can't lie and say that it's not pressure. Right. So it is the type of pressure that if not careful, you will crumble very fast if you don't pace and be honest about the fact. No, this is actually a lot. This is actually kind of tough. There have been times when I've gone to my wife and I would be like, honey, I think I'm struggling. I really think I'm struggling right now. I'm trying to do the best that it is that I can. And it was only maybe a month or two in or whatnot, because I felt like I was like, am I really being the best leader that I could? Am I really doing the things that I could? And me, as a. When it comes to ministry, when it comes to responsibility, I'm very serious about it.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And the way that Pastor Philip is about preaching, that's how you are. I am. Especially when we talk about worship. Like, I am that person. And so it's like, I don't like senior IG stories.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I don't like to haphazardly, like, talk about it or treat it as just like, oh, man, we just singing songs. I don't live that way. I don't study that way. I don't do that. And I don't personally, when I step on that platform to do that ministry unto the Lord, it's just something that I don't really. So from that, I was like. I was like, babe, am I being too stern? Am I being too shitty? Cause I was really trying to get our team to really understand, like, hey, we really gotta lock in to what this is and what we're responsible for. Because we feel like something is getting ready to change, a tide is getting ready to turn, and we can't really afford to be, like, playing around. And so, you know, in that it's just kind of like, be it from very, very intentional, tough conversations, be it with those around me, and people who've had things, had to have those with me as well. It's like, hey, Trey. Like, no, this is. This is what. You probably should do this better. So it was a lot of learning because of the responsibility so fast. It's like, a lot of learning. And especially in how to deal with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so because I'm like, naturally just introverted or whatever, when it just comes down to responsibility, this is what it is. This is what it. This is we just not playing around here. And this is how it's going to run. This is how it's going to run. And things of that nature. It's like, all right, honey, I think you should probably be a little more gentle there. I think you should probably be a little bit more kind there. I think you should probably pull back. Can say it. Say that, but. But lace that thing with a little bit more love. You know what I mean? Like, let them know that you care about them too. You know, things of that nature. So it's been a lot of learning curves, especially dealing with the human heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I've been trying to. To really grasp without.

[A]

Listen, getting paid twice a month doesn't mean money has to be scarce. And it can feel that way. Sometimes that feeling can make you do things that you probably don't need to do do, like put something on a credit card or feel unsettled over the timing of something that is completely outside of your control. And that's such a common feeling that nobody really talks about. That's why I want to talk to you guys about Earn In. Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank. And the concept is really simple. Earn. It allows you to access up to a hundred and fifty dollars of your pay each day and up to a thousand dollars between paychecks with no mandatory fees. Tips are completely optional. Standard transfers take up to one to two business days. And if you need it faster, expedited transfers start at 399 and cap at 599. 5 million people are already on it. And honestly, it's surprising that this didn't exist sooner. Download Earn in at the App Store or Google Play spelled earning money without the G. Type in in totality under podcast when you sign up. It'll really help the show. Again, Earn in is a financial technology, not a bank. Access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors. All right, guys, back to the show. Believe it or not, there are some believers in the Christian faith who spend years thinking that they're broken or failing God because they're struggling with unwanted, distressing thoughts. But this isn't a spiritual failure. These thoughts could be due to a common but overlooked condition, ocd. I'm talking about thoughts that interrupt worship. Like, am I praying right? Will God forgive me if I make a mistake in my prayer? I need to start over. I need to do it perfectly this time. Or maybe a blasphemous image that pops into your head that makes you feel like you sin just for thinking it. Unwanted thoughts like these can be a sign of a type of religious ocd, also known as scrupulosity. Ocd. It's a form of OCD that can turn your faith into a source of constant guilt, doubt and fear. But because the condition is still widely misunderstood, a lot of people don't even know that it can show up in this way or even that it can center around their faith. But OCD isn't just about being neat or organized like most stereotypes suggest. OCD latches on to what you care about most, causing a cycle of distressing intrusive thoughts and behaviors done to get rid of the anxiety they create. Like praying until it feels just right or trying to solve or figure out your thoughts. But any relief of these type of behaviors is short lived. So the cycle begins again. Many people silently struggle with religious OCD thinking it's some sort of personal failure or lack of faith where that may not be the case. It's a common type of OCD and highly treatable with the right kind of specialized therapy. And that's where no CD comes in. No CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All of these licensed therapists are trained in ERP, or Exposure and Response prevention therapy, the most effective treatment for ocd. NO CD therapist and deeply understand ocd. So they know that these thoughts don't mean anything about you. In live virtual sessions, they'll help you break free from OCD's grip while honoring your faith so you can get back to focusing on what matters the most. No CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. And they provide support between sessions. So you're never going at this alone. If you think you might be struggling with any kind of OCD, don't wait. Head over to nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call with their team today and start reclaiming your thoughts from OCD. That's no cd.com. that's n o c d.com diluting the,

[B]

the weight of what it is that we're actually called, called and responsible for.

[A]

That's good. What's been unexpected with God in this whole transition or in your relationship with the Lord? Like what's been unexpected?

[B]

Yeah, and this is more so like a, like a more recent month development. Right. I was spending time with the Lord and I felt like I was like struggling to, like, focus. Like, I was like, you know, like, I'm really trying to lean in and things of that nature. Like, Lord, like, you know, like, am I hearing from you? Am I close? You know, like, it was feeling, like, this little distance between me and the Lord, and I was just like, lord, am I missing something? Is there sin in my heart? Like, tell me. Show me things of that nature. And I think I was in my office, which is also, like, my prayer room, and I was in there for maybe, like, two hours. And feeling the Lord, it was just kind of like you're looking for big moments. Like, you're looking for big moments to let you know that you're close to me. And because of what I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being on a platform, and it's like, you got 30 minutes and maybe an hour of encounter singing ministry to the Lord. Big. We hear high praise things and so on and so forth. And I. And I didn't notice it, but it slowly started to shape the way how I spent time with the Lord, that if I didn't have this big revelatory aha, then I did not spend time with the Lord, or I did not encounter the Lord, or I did not meet with the Lord. If I wasn't balling tears, did not encounter the Lord. I did not meet with the Lord. And he was like, yeah, you're looking for me in these big moments. And he took me to. It's like, he's not in the earthquake. He's not in the wind. He's not in the fire. He's in the still, small whisper. And during this time in my life, this. The here has been the most difficult place because I feel like I'm always having to think and always having to do, and I feel like this is the place that I feel like I'm having a difficult time shutting off.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And so in there, it's just kind of like what I did not expect is in a time where it's like, we're running. Is the time that he's like, slow down.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I'm not understanding. It's like, this is actually very confusing.

[A]

Yeah, but that makes sense. Like, I get that. I get that it's tough. There's a song by. Is it Seu Worship or you know who that is? I think it's. Is it Seu? They have this song, and she says, the slower I go, the faster I arrive. And I just. I've been listening to that song because I'm in the same pace or places as pacing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, I Want God to sanctify me at a certain type of pace. I want him to do things at a certain type of pace. And I. It's. I can't. You know what I mean? I'm like. I want the pace to be like, let's go. You know what I mean? But that song has just, like, really minister to my heart, because it's like, the slower I go, the faster I arrive, the more I just abide and wait, you know, like, waiting on him. Just waiting on him. And the more that I'm waiting without the anticipation of arriving is when I arrive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's like, the second I stop thinking about when I'm gonna arrive is the second that, like, I've arrived.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and he's here, and he's with me, and I'm in it, and I'm. And I can feel his tangible presence. But the second I'm trying to do. And I've had that experience, I'm trying to have the big. I'm the same way. Like, before podcasting, before a Bible study, before a platform. I'm like, if I'm not weeping, you're not with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? I'm not gonna do good. You're not gonna be with. You know? But it's like. And I've been trying to really lean into the love of the Lord and the identity of who I am in Him. And I think when I start to train my mind to think in that direction, it helps me not strive for those big moments. It helps me just appreciate the fact that if he never says a word, the fact that the God of the universe heard me, even if he never said a word, the mere fact that I have his attention and that he heard me should be enough. The mere fact that I'm able to even talk to him, do you know what I mean? Should be enough. And I think that goes to that song is like, the slower I go, the faster I arrive. And I have. I've leaned into that a lot. I am curious about your relationship with worship. Has worship always been the same for you? And if it hasn't, when did worship change? Like, when did you arrive at, like. No, this is really. This is true worship.

[B]

I don't know when the when. I can't pinpoint exactly the when. I just know over a course of time, just through. Through, like, I'm a Bible nerd. So it's like, I.

[A]

You really are. Because I. I picked up on that. I'm like, pray me in that book,

[B]

like, Like, I really love, love reading, I really love studying. I really love, especially within the context of worship. What I experienced or what was introduced to me at first is worship is songs, worship is music. So from that, it was kind of like when I first started studying. It's like confirmation bias. Like, I was trying to find everything that confirmed this point and not realizing that it was. It was not absent of that, but it was just much deeper than that. It was much more deeper, much more profound than what it is that I actually was aware of. And my relationship with worship began in 2016. Thank you, Lord.

[A]

You're like, what's the thank you, Lord?

[B]

No, it literally came to mind because I had a flashback of the exact moment things changed for me. 2016. I'm in a friend at the time. We're in this apartment with a couple of other friends, and I turn on this worship set by Stephanie Gretzinger.

[A]

First of all, okay, Stephanie is a weeping yes, angel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She just. I have loved Stephanie Gretzinger since I was a teenager. So, like, yeah, yeah, she's the best.

[B]

It was the first time I was ever introduced to her. Here's the other caveat. I did not know expression outside of being African American. I did not know expression outside of that. So 2016, sitting on the couch, scrolling through just YouTube and just randomly clicked on this click. I don't even know how we got onto it. Just randomly clicked on it. And she was doing this worship set with this guy. And it was the most beautiful, heart wrenching moment that I had ever. I was like, what is this? Like, I'm literally. And literally for maybe like three months, I was. That was the only video I was listening to. And it was like, what is. Like, what is this? Like, I've never heard anything like it. I've never seen anything like it was two people, like, two people just singing to the Lord in like this little youth conference room, things of that nature. And like, for three months I'm trying to figure out, like, lord, like, what is this? Like, what is happening here?

[A]

Because Stephanie will make you feel like you don't know the Lord.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

She will make you feel like you do not know the man.

[B]

Here's the caveat. At that point, I was convinced I did it. I was convinced that I knew him as. Cause I grew up in the Baptist context and things of that nature, which was all about fict. Jesus, bless me. Help me do it right now, Lord. And contrary to popular belief, I actually enjoy a quartet. So from that. From that reality, it's kind of like that's what you grew up on. All the songs that was about me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

All the songs that were about me and do it for me and this is what I need you to do for me and me and me. And me. And had never heard a lot of songs aside from Sisi Juanas. Had never heard of a lot of songs about, like, the Lord. Yeah, like, the Lord, like, talking to the Lord. And a lot of you. You are wonderful. And you. You know, all the different things. And so it was at that point where. And I think I had just got into, like, songwriting at that time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That kind of shifted a lot of things for me because it was like, God, like, am I missing something? Like, did I miss something for this entire time? And I think, what, 2016. I was like, 2021. So it's kind of like stepping into adulthood, you know, all the different things. And it's just kind of like, this is. This is different. And so from that, I was like, man, I gotta tell everybody about this. I gotta. You know. And then it was, like, started adjusting the way that I led worship, how I sang. So, like, my private time became a lot of. Because I didn't do it before. I would just sing just to sing or, you know, just sing the songs that was just most popular in, like, the black community gospel context and things of that nature. So. But then it was like I started actually singing songs that I would sing to the Lord. I would sing to the Lord. And it was like, it was a complete culture shock for me that stuck with me up until now. And so from that, it's just kind of like singing songs like, you are holy and, you know. You know, just, you know, it's a song that heard Jeremy Riddle saying that it was like, I want to sit at your feet Drink from the cup in your hands Lay back against you and breathe Feel your heartbeat it's more than I can speak it's more than I can stand I melt in your peace it's overwhelming. And it was like one of those songs. It was like a love song to the Lord. And it was only. I only had this understanding of, like, he's judge and don't cross him. And I didn't know him as father and I didn't know him as friend. It invited me into the love of the Lord that actually let me know that he wants relationship with me and not just this thing of, like, do what I told you to do alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it shifted the way that I not only sang, but it started shifting the way in which I lived.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I lived very frivolously. You know, it was horrible. It was a horrible time. From the ages 20 to, like, 26. It was a really hard time.

[A]

You said a whole six years of mess.

[B]

And it was as I was trying to discover that, but then wrestling with this experience in this culture that I had grew up in that let me know a lot of things were okay as long as I kept doing the thing. And so for worship, it became this thing of, like. Like living my life for the Lord, not just singing songs to the Lord, and the way that I lived made songs true. And so that's where a huge shift came from, because it was like. And once that kind of stuck with me, it was kind of like, yeah, I'm singing this song, but is it true to me? Like, I know it may be truth, but is it. But is it true to me? Can I sing this with confidence?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I sing this with the level of conviction that this truth holds, or am I just singing truth that has no impact on my life? And so that's when the shift kind of.

[A]

I feel like two things. One, and I've given this example before on this platform, but I like to use it because in this context, I feel like it's the same thing. Somebody once told me, like, it's a different. There's a difference between someone who tells a story, the person who actually got hit by the bus, and the person who saw somebody get hit by the bus. And I feel like when true worshipers worship facts, there's a difference between when it's been. When it's. Like you said, when it's been true to you, when that has penetrated your heart, you carry a different authority. And when you sing that song, indeed, because it's been true to you. And so I feel like when I. When I have experienced you in a worship service, whether it's at 2019 or Acts 2:42, I've seen conviction. Like, that is a. Like, I believe this. And it's. I mean, and I think that's in ministry in general. Like, I can't get on this mic or on, you know, on this podcast and talk about something that hasn't really been true to me. Do you know what I'm saying? I can get on here and talk about some stuff, but it's a different. When I've really been through something and I'm talking. Because I'm not just talking about. Like you said, it's not. I'm not just talking about Truth. But I'm talking about the history that I have with God. I'm talking about the history that I have with that truth. And that carries a different weight and a different conviction. And I think it ministers to people differently. And so I'm curious at what is your outlook? Two questions.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know where I want to go first. Okay, I'll go here first, because Romans 12 is my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I, I, I'm going to be in the book for the rest of my life, I'm sure. But Romans 12 talks about being a living sacrifice and that being your. Some translations say reasonable service, but I love the translation that says true worship. If someone were to come to you and say, trey, what is a worshiper?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How would you tell them? Like, how would you disciple somebody? And what being. Being a living sacrifice and that being your true worship, how does that, how is that lived out?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I would say, in light of the scripture, Paul says at the first part, I beseech you, brothers, by the mercies of God to present. And the mercies of God is everything that he was explaining from 1 to 11 about sin, justification, salvation, grace, walking through all of those different things. And now he says, now, in light of all the things that God did through Christ, this is how you should respond if you want to know what a true worshiper is. It is a person who has a right response to a right revelation of Christ. You can't call yourself a worshiper. Those who worship me must worship me in spirit and truth. Spirit, because God is spirit and then truth, that truth being the truth, or the understanding, the knowledge of God, knowledge of who Christ is. And so you can't really say that you are a true worshiper if you have not seen him clearly. It's one thing to just be like, oh, yeah, like, I know God, but do you know Him? Like, do you know, do you know the reason why he saved you? Does salvation. Does the cross pull on you in a way that that makes you. Oh, snap. Oh, man, I was a wretch undone. I was filthy. There was nothing I could do to save myself. And I believed at one point that there was something I could do to save myself. In comparison, the Holy Spirit, after tugging,

[A]

believe it or not, there are some believers in the Christian faith who spend years thinking that they're broken or failing God because they're struggling with unwanted, distressing thoughts. But this isn't a spiritual failure. These thoughts could be due to a common but overlooked condition, ocd. I'm talking about thoughts that Interrupt worship. Like, am I praying right? Will God forgive me if I make a mistake in my prayer? I need to start over. I need to do it perfectly this time. Or maybe a blasphemous image that pops into your head that makes you feel like you sin just for thinking it. Unwanted thoughts like these can be a sign of a type of religious ocd, also known as scrupulosity. Ocd. It's a form of OCD that can turn your faith into a source of constant guilt, doubt and fear. But because the condition is still widely misunderstood, a lot of people don't even know that it can show up in this way or even that it can can center around their faith. But OCD isn't just about being neat or organized like most stereotypes suggest. OCD latches on to what you care about most, causing a cycle of distressing, intrusive thoughts and behaviors done to get rid of the anxiety they create, like praying until it feels just right or trying to solve or figure out your thoughts. But any relief of these type of behaviors is short lived. So the cycle begins again. Many people silently struggle with religious ocd, thinking it's some sort of personal failure or lack of faith, where that may not be the case. It's a common type of OCD and highly treatable with the right kind of specialized therapy. And that's where no CD comes in. No CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All of these licensed therapists are trained in ERP, or Exposure and Response Prevention therapy, the most effective treatment for ocd. No CD therapists deeply understand ocd, so they know that these thoughts don't mean anything about you. In live virtual sessions, they'll help you break free from OCD's grip while honoring your faith so you can get back to focusing on what matters the most. No CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans, and they provide support between sessions. So you're never going at this alone. Alone. If you think you might be struggling with any kind of OCD, don't wait. Head over to nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call with their team today and start reclaiming your thoughts from OCD. That's nocd.com. that's n o c d dot com.

[B]

I just got up there and I was just like, oh my God, thank you, thank you.

[A]

And then I heard someone, anyone, please help.

[B]

He's like Superman being able to carry me off the mount.

[A]

The award winning Tell me what happened podcast from OnStar is back. New emergencies, new heroes. Find out what happens in season six of Tell Me what happened out now.

[B]

My heart a few times gave me revelation to actually see him for who he is. If you have not had that actual encounter with the Lord and that eye opening thing, you will only treat worship as the song that you sing on Sunday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You will never apply it to. No. This is my lifelong response to the Lord until the day that I die. It is a living sacrifice, meaning it's not one moment. It's not a momentary thing that you do for one time. It is a continual response. Not so that you can get something from the Lord, not so that you can pay him back. It is a thank you to the Lord. It is. This is the least.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

This is the least.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

This is the least that I could do for everything that you've done. And not that what you've done is. Cause you're still doing things. Hello, you're still doing things. But in light of the cross, this is the least that I could do for what you've done. And I will do my best through the power and the strength of the spirit to say thank you every day with my life. That when you talk about being a true worshiper, if your life doesn't say thank you, if it's not an incense of thank you to the Lord, true worshiper, I don't know. You may be a churchgoer, you may be someone who talks about God, you may be someone who. Who has an affinity toward God. But as far as being a true worshiper, if your life doesn't reflect that and it doesn't say thank you to the Lord is not worship at all. And it's something that one of my brothers, we were having a conversation like years ago, and he said, worship is not worship. Not just because you sacrifice, but unless the Lord receives that sacrifice, because there's this idea that. That it says holy inacceptable, meaning that everything that we give is not always acceptable to the Lord unless you actually have. Which goes into that knowing the Lord piece. Lord, what do you actually want from me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are you looking for me? Because if you know that there's this thing that he's looking for and this thing. Thank you for giving me. You say that I can have your house and I can have your car and your family, but I want that bitterness that you got sitting in your heart.

[A]

Trey, watch your mouth.

[B]

I want that unforgiveness that's sitting there. Watch it. That you've masked with the act of doing things to think that you're saying a full thank you, but it's only a partial one because you have not given him the thing that he's actually looking for that lets you know, like, hey, this is actually the sacrifice that is most pleasing to him. And I refer people back to this. When you look at when Moses came down from the mountain and the Lord told him to build the tent of meeting, Moses didn't have the bright idea to build the Lord a dwelling place. It was the Lord who gave Moses the details, the instructions. This is how I want. These are the colors that I want. This is the cubits that I want. This is the metrics that I want, which lets me know that God is actually very intentional about what he wants, when he wants, how he wants it, and why he wants it. So from that understanding, why would I think that that that changed when it comes to my life?

[A]

Correct. Yeah.

[B]

So if you're talking about worship, it's not just giving God something, but giving him what he wants.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Because if it don't cost you something,

[A]

is it actually worship and is it actually a sacrifice? So, yeah, I wish kind of the both translations would go together. Because reasonable service is what you're saying. Like, there is no other reasonable response. And I think, like, when I look at that scripture and I. And I see Paul say, present your bodies. That is a very specific word to say, because we would rather him say, present your heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Present your mind. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Present your money or your relationship. But he said, present your body, which means everything that you do in this body.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Whatever you do in this body belongs to Him. And I think that we live in this world culture of, like, we just want the autonomy to do what we want when we want. We want the Lord to be a concierge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we want him to just serve us, which he does serve us in so many ways, but we just want Him. We want him to conform to our will. But that is not what a worshiper is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

A worshiper sacrifices their lives.

[B]

That is because there are two words for worship. There's one that says proskhoni, which you'll see in, like, Genesis 22. And it's to bow, to prostrate to things of that nature. And then the word worship that's in Romans 12 is. Don't quote me on it. Just hit the. If you got blue letter Bible, just hit that.

[A]

We'll have it pull up on the

[B]

screen, that microphone, and it'll say it. But it's like Latreia. Latrea and it means service. So for me, the two connect. To bow is to acknowledge the supreme worth of someone. And so from acknowledging and agreeing with who God is, there should be something that should provoke a response. It's not just, oh, yeah, that's who he is. No, it's who he is. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You are everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How can I give you everything? You get what I'm saying? It's one of those things where it's like, it shouldn't be this lackluster response to the Lord. That is. No, it's because I've seen him, I respond. It's because I know him. I respond. It's because I've encountered him that I respond. And it is not partial. It is. David said it. And I believe in two Samuel. This is the Bible, nerd part of me. I apologize.

[A]

Oh, please don't.

[B]

But David said when he said, I dare not give God anything that did not cost me. So I think it's like, 2nd Samuel 24, I dare not give God anything that did not cost me. Because the man at the thing has something to do with building a temple for the Lord. Eventually, we know that David could not build the temple for the Lord, but the man was just going to give the stuff, give it to David. David said, no, I don't want to give him anything that don't cost me anything. That's not reasonable. Yeah, yeah, it's not reasonable service. And I think when we talk about discipling, it's like, not just what you can do, especially to worship leaders, not just how well you sing the song or execute the song. That's great. Glad you prioritize excellence. Because I believe that does play a part when you talk about the music component. But it's like, what in your heart, from the time you were in your secret place to the time you stepped on that platform, what did you give to the Lord? If you tell me nothing, I'm concerned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you tell me that the Lord did not prick your heart, convict your heart, challenge your heart, challenge you in any way, shape, form, or fashion to give something to him from a week.

[A]

Mm. Cause I feel like he be asking me for something every day, every day and multiple times a day, every day. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Every day.

[A]

It's like, I'd be like, gosh, I

[B]

just gave you this yesterday. You want more? Please, help, Help.

[A]

No, no, but seriously, it's every day he wants something. But I think, again, we don't marvel enough at the cross. Cause I can Complain? Yeah, I complain. I shouldn't, but I complain. I'm like, ah, like, you want this, you want that, you want me to do this, you want me to sacrifice here, you want me to do. But then when I. When I. When the Lord humbles me and when I'm praying and when I find my. And I take inventory of my heart and I find myself like, you've been doing a lot of complaining, a lot of grumbling, like, and. And the Lord is kind of nudging me, like, you. You need to repent because you've been doing a lot of complaining. The thing that reorients my thoughts and puts my heart back on pace with him is when I think about the cross. And I took my village community on Patreon through this, where I was like, I want you every single time that you get before the Lord. And I wanted them to actually get in a physical posture of humility, Right. Like, get on your face. Because there's something different about getting on your face before the Lord, right. I was like, get on your face. And I want you to rehearse the gospel.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

Rehearse it.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

Before you say. Before you start going into your petitions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your requests. Before you start casting and doing all the things, I want you to rehearse the gospel. And when I did that, I don't know how many months that was, but when I. That changed my prayer life.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

That every single time I got on my face, I just out loud rehearsed the gospel. And it. And it. It. It felt like it actually aligned my heart back to what this is all about, like, actually worshiping him. And then I found myself in times of prayer where I'm not even asking him for anything. I'm literally just worshiping you because you are that good that you saved me. You literally can't. You sent your son to die for me. I would always get stuck at the fact, like, I was your enemy. I was your enemy. And you kept giving me breath and you kept giving me life and you kept providing for me. And I didn't end up killing myself, and I didn't end up drinking or driving drunk and getting into a car accident and dying. And I didn't. And I started to rehearse all those things. And where I would normally be begging for situations to change, for relationships to change, for whatever, I just found myself in a position of just worship and reverential awe of how good God is. And I try to, like, for anybody that's struggling to really just marvel like, just do that. Just think about the cross. Just think about the cross. Think about it. If you think about the cross and it doesn't do something, something's off.

[B]

Something is off.

[A]

Something's off. Like, it has to pierce it. Your hearts. When Peter preached that first message after the day of Pentecost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He says their. It said their hearts were pierced. When he just preached the gospel, their hearts were pierced. The gospel is enough. And if you really allow it to penetrate your heart, I think that's when worship starts.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think sis to that is my favorite book in the entire Bible is Hebrews. I love Hebrews because I feel like you get a very clear picture of Christ. That is him as the high priest, and he's the propitiation of us. He is like, Hebrews one says it all for me. Where it's like, in the old days, the Father spoke by the prophets, but in these last days, he speaks to us by the Son, who is, you know, like the image of the invisible God. He is the brightness of his glory. He is, you know, all the different things. But then you go further in and you realize he died to save us. And it only. It was once for all. And it gives you context, like, why the sacrifices and back then and the hoops and the loops, if you will, and then you realize that he did that once, and he did it once for all, for all eternity. Like, that should change something for you. And I think if you don't have a right view, even of the gospel is difficult for you to worship, because it's like, no, I. I'm not worshiping to get a thing from you.

[A]

I just get you.

[B]

I just get you.

[A]

I just get you.

[B]

I just.

[A]

And we got to know that. That's the goal.

[B]

That's the goal.

[A]

And it really was Stephanie Graham going back to her. She the one that really got me on that. On that tip. But it's like, that's. That's the thing. That's the thing. And I. And I wish for the. For the love. I wish that we would get this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In today's culture, when there are so many people that the Lord is drawing to himself, and I want them to know so badly that you are not coming to Christianity to get a situation fixed, to get a relationship fixed, to get a car, to get a job, to get a platform, to get a podcast, to get a stage. You came to the faith to get God. And if you don't see him as the prize, you're missing it. He is the thing. He is the prize. He is the goal. That is the greatest thing that you ever get from the faith is him. Not his hand, but him.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

We gotta get. We gotta get that.

[B]

We've made him into this bridge to something.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

We've made him into. If I get him, I get this. It's the. What they call it? The Jesus plus. Yes, the Jesus. Like, if I get. If I get him, then he'll fund this. He'll fund my. He'll fund. Ah. And it's like. Like, when is he going to be enough? When. When is it. Thank you. That I like. Like to. To me. And it's a mystery. It's a mystery. It's a mystery. It's a mystery. You have. Not just from an ethereal. No, he actually. He made you his dwelling place. Like he said, I'm not just going to die for you. You, but I'm going to choose to make my home in you. That like, what exactly are we talking about?

[A]

Hello.

[B]

When we like, he. I did this not just so that you could be saved, not just so you could have salvation alone, but so that you could realize I'm. I'm re. I'm. I'm bridging the gap. I'm not a bridge to something. I'm actually bridging a gap where sin separated something. I'm bringing us back together. I'm bringing us close. And I'm gonna show you how close. I'm gonna make my home in you. So that you will know that you were bought with a high price.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You will know how precious my blood is. Is because it gave me a doorway to you. Not just to absolve you of your sin. It gave me a doorway to your heart.

[A]

Heart.

[B]

It gave me a. It gave me a doorway to make you my resting place. I don't want to live in a building. I don't want to live in something that's brick and mortar that can be torn down in a second. No. I want to make my dwelling place in you. That it's a mystery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The God of the universe, the one who put time in its place, who made the blades of the grass and every petal on a flower. Power stroked the clouds into this. The God of the universe made his dwelling place in me. It's a mystery and I don't fully understand it yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's such a mystery that I'm like, wait a second.

[A]

Yeah, I get.

[B]

I have you. I don't have to. Pastor Philip does not have to go before me for Me to get to you.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Because we depend on the preachers and we depend on the pastors for the sake of, like, I gotta.

[A]

Even the worship leaders.

[B]

Yeah, the worship. Oh, man. Like, if I don't have this or if I don't have that or if I don't have. Then how. No, he died so that you wouldn't have hoops. You wouldn't have loops. This is the part where I don't think people understand when. Cause this is the fulfillment of Exodus 19. He will make us a kingdom of priests. First. Peter 2 and 9. You were a royal priesthood?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do priests do? Priests went before the Lord. Priests ministered before the Lord. Priests engaged with the Lord. Priests encountered the Lord. What did he want the entire time? Since the garden is for us to encounter him, for us to be with him. He broke all the barriers, all the walls, everything that's now fulfilled in one man so that we could have complete, total, unlimited access. So it's like, what are we debating about? What are we talking about? If going to him and having access in your home, in your car, while you're rocking your baby to sleep, you got access to him?

[A]

Is that not. Is that not enough?

[B]

Is that not enough?

[A]

Is that. That's what I'm saying. We gotta. We gotta marvel at just that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, and I would challenge anybody watching this right now or listening to this right now. When's the last time you thought through all of that? Pause this, rewind it, go back and listen to it again. And when's the last time you marveled at that? Yeah, I'm challenged right now. Just even right now, I'm like, well, dang, Trey. Hey, shoot. I ain't invite you on my couch to do all that, you know? But seriously, when's the last time I marveled at the fact that he made me his dwelling place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That he thought that much of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I'm saying? That. That. Like, when's the last time we've marveled at that? It's a. That's a game changer.

[B]

It's a game. It's a game changer for how you live your life. You live your life with the level of caution. With every step I take, he has made his home in me.

[A]

You live different.

[B]

You live different.

[A]

You live different.

[B]

You live different.

[A]

You ain't at that boy's house.

[B]

He lives here. Like, my temple belongs to him. Like, goes into the body part like it belongs to him. It actually doesn't belong to me. It's not My own. It's not my own. The moment I said yes, I gave up rights. I gave up rights. I gave up ownership. It doesn't belong to me, so I can't do what I want to do with it. It doesn't belong to me, so. Because it doesn't belong to me. Nope. This is my reasonable service. Thank you, Lord. I'm leaving.

[A]

Adios.

[B]

You on your way. Ah, this don't belong to me. And when you live that way, when you.

[A]

By the way you dress, it don't matter what you eat, what you drink.

[B]

How do I honor you with this? This. Does this honor you? Is that like. Like, because we get into the. Oh, conviction. Yeah, I get it. I get it. But it's one of those things where it's just kind of like. It's just one of those things where it's just. No, ask him. Ask him, because I don't think you asked him.

[A]

And. And see, Trey, and that's what he really. Where the question I just be wanting to know. Did you ask?

[B]

Did you ask?

[A]

Did you ask.

[B]

You think he doesn't care because people. People has labeled that as too deep.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Did you ask him?

[A]

Did you.

[B]

Cuz he actually. He cares more than you think. Did you ask?

[A]

Did you ask? And I feel this way. I'm not going to get into it because y' all not about to drag me. I ain't going to get. I'm not going to get into the specifics, but there was a whole debate about all the things.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I don't even care. I'm g. Just say it. Yeah, there was a whole debate about pledging and this and this and that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In my. I. Jordan knows this to be a fact because I asked her. Because we've had several conversations about this. I said. And you tell. If I'm lying, say it. I said, did I not say to you? I said, my biggest question is, did they ask the Lord?

[B]

Did you ask?

[A]

That's all. I don't care.

[B]

Did you ask?

[A]

Did you ask? Did you ask the Lord?

[B]

Did you ask? And if you ask during and if you asked after, and if he told you you to put it down, what's your response? What's your response? Because now what you actually revealed once he asked you after, you asked him, lord, do you want me to stay in this. Not confirmation bias? Because you'll believe that he's okay with any and all things. If he's specific about you and he's intentional about you, don't think that he won't give you something different than what you want. You got to ask.

[A]

You have to. You have to ask.

[B]

Ask.

[A]

Okay. And, Trey, I didn't invite you over here to do all this. But if you are hesitant to ask, then it reveals an idol.

[B]

It reveals an idol.

[A]

And I don't care what the ask is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Friendship, church.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sir. I don't care. Job. If you are afraid to ask him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That fear reveals an idol.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Because whatever he asks you for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have to be willing to ask. I'll be feeling. Sometimes the Lord is like, I just want you to ask me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. This is a part of relationship.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

If I. If. If, number one. If I'm your father.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I'm your. If I am your savior and if I'm your Lord, If. If I am that to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you confess that I am to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're afraid to ask me. You probably already know that. I don't want you to do it anyway.

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

Like, for me, it's. It's simple for me, things like that is simple for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's like, if you're that afraid to ask and see what the Lord thinks about this, then you probably should let it go.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You would be safer if you let it go than you spending 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years holding onto it and wrestling in your soul with whether or not, you know the Lord wants you to let it go. What are we talking about? And now it will. It would just be safer. You have a lot more peace.

[A]

You sure will, though.

[B]

You may have to grieve a thing. You may have to grieve a season. You may have to do whatever the case may be. But on the other side of that, I believe that you will come out with more peace because you prioritize your relationship with him and the salvation that he paid for, then what is culturally normal and culturally acceptable. And the fear of man. That thing when pastor preached that text about, don't fear the people who can kill the body, fear the one who can. Who can kill the body and the soul. Stuff like that. It's just kind of like, I don't care what you think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't care what you think. Yeah. You gotcha. Cool. I. It don't belong to me.

[A]

Yeah. But that goes back to what you were saying earlier. Do you really know him? Because if you actually know him, then you know you're gonna stand before him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not about to stand before that man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And be like now, I don't want that. I just don't. I can't. There's too much reverence that I have. Like you said, it's better just to let it go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And if the Lord wants me to have it, he'll bring it back, whatever the thing is. Whatever. But it's best to just move in the direction of whatever God is leading you to do. And don't be afraid to ask the question. Just ask, what, Lord? What do you think about this?

[B]

Just ask.

[A]

I'm not saying what you think about it for them. I'm saying what do you think about for me? Not for them. For me. This is a personal relationship. Right. This ain't all a group project. Yeah, we the church, but it ain't all a group project. You understand what I'm saying? This is personal. So some things the Lord is going to convict you to do that he may not convict somebody else to do, but whatever he's convicting you to do, you need to do it regardless of what anybody else is doing.

[B]

Y. Y.

[A]

That's a real relationship.

[B]

Oh, watch. Do that. Because I love him.

[A]

And Let me give you another one. Because he loves me. Huh?

[B]

And he proved that to me. He showed me that he loved me. He gave up everything, and I can't give up this. He gave his life, and I can't give this.

[A]

My mom used to say it all the time. She's like, you ain't shed no blood.

[B]

You ain't shed.

[A]

You didn't shed any blood.

[B]

Bible nerd Hebrews says that you have not suffered with sin to the point of shedding blood.

[A]

Shedding blood. Yes. Yep.

[B]

You have not experienced that level of weight.

[A]

Nope. So, hey, just give it up.

[B]

Give it up.

[A]

Give it up.

[B]

Just give it up and ask. You don't realize. And for those who are. You may not even necessarily realize that this is a part of relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

This is just a part of relationship with your children.

[A]

Like, sacrifice is everywhere. Sacrifice is everywhere. It's everywhere.

[B]

Hey, mom, can I go? Honestly, son, I don't think that's probably the safest place for you to go right now. All right, cool. You deal with it. You deal with it. Well, you'd probably be. But I really wanted to, like, if you don't look at it from that, like, you're a child to a father. Child, father.

[A]

That identity. That's that identity.

[B]

And it's like, is this what you want me to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not like, no, it's not that. It's no I actually.

[A]

Actually, I have something better.

[B]

I have something better. I want you to give that up. And sometimes, either he'll give the reason to you now, or you'll find out the reason. Hindsight 20 20. Either way it goes. The. The promise is not an. The promise is not details. The promise is him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if he said, hey, just give it to me, give it to me. You. You'll. You'll. You'll see why later. You. You. You'll understand why later.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You don't understand everything now. You understand my letter, but I'm with you in it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I'm not leaving you by yourself. I'm not just giving you an answer. Then leave.

[A]

Abandoning you.

[B]

I'm with you.

[A]

I'm with you.

[B]

I'm with you. I. I'll bring you comfort. I know it's going to be difficult. I know it's going to be tough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But take heart, I've overcome it.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

I got you.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's. It's almost like when people approach it from that, from that. That. When it's like, oh, my gosh, I can't. You almost have a panic attack, try to give up the thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like you think that. That because you have it and because it's difficult to let go, that the Lord don't understand.

[A]

And he does.

[B]

And he does.

[A]

And he does.

[B]

And he does.

[A]

We don't serve a high priest who is unable, huh, to.

[B]

To empathize and sympathize with our weakness. So he understands. He is not a tyrant that is looking at you like, see, I told you he's not doing that.

[A]

Yeah. He withholds no good thing from us. And I think we have to understand that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If it's good for us, if it's good. He will not withhold it. Us.

[B]

He will give it.

[A]

He's not going to take something away that is good for you. He just won't. He's. And I. And that's the thing I've been trying to remind myself of in, in this season, of like, just going through a lot of just stuff. And I'm just like, he's a good shepherd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's a good father. He's like, he's a good, faithful shepherd. He's a good father. Like, just reminding myself of that when my thoughts start to get anxious about this or that or whatever, and I'm just like, no, no, God, he's good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if it's been taken away from me, yeah, it's for my good. And if it comes back, then it's for my good. And, like, he's just. He's good. And I can trust his character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because he has a flawless track record, so I can just trust him.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's just. That's just.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And that's. That. That's.

[B]

That's. That's. That's.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's a period.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a period.

[B]

It's trust.

[A]

I literally could talk to you about so many things. Truly, I could. I could probably go on for another two hours on that subject alone. But you, in 2019 worship, wrote a beautiful song, and I always mess it up. In Christ alone or for Christ alone? I'm like, in Christ alone. For Christ alone. That dropped. By the time they see this episode, it's already dropped. How do you feel?

[B]

It is. And I've been trying to stay in the moment of it all. It is a very beautiful journey that I think that we are all on, and we are content with the Lord with what he wants to do. And we tell people this all the time because we want to make sure that people actually understand the reason why we exist. Why 2819. Worship is a thing. And contrary to popular belief, it's not to make a name. It's not to be. It's all so that people can see Christ more clearly.

[A]

Yeah. Even in music. Right?

[B]

That's it. Yeah, that's it. So the songs that we write, all the different things, it's like, does it help you see him? This is the question that we're asking. And one of my brothers, Jonathan Stamper, he asked me a question. We were just talking about worship. He was like, man, if a generation only had your music to disciple them, or would they know about God?

[A]

God, Sheesh. Why are you on my couch doing stuff? Because I didn't invite you to do all that. Because now I'm like, if they only had your podcast, how would. How much would they know about Christ? Lord? I didn't invite you over here to do that. Okay. You need to go. Yeah, that's good, though.

[B]

But. So we live from that. Yeah, we write from that. That we make sure that it's simple, single scriptural, that it is congregational in nature. Because when we lead worship, we write songs surrounding it, all the different things. We call it priest among priests who are together to minister to the Lord. And so that's how we lean in. So the song is a super exciting song. The part that everybody loves it, and that's the thing I tell people, having a conversation with it, like, there was an entirely different bridge to that song, really? Before the week before we did the song in the gathering.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The bridge was entirely different. The bridge was entirely different. You would not have felt the same way that people do now to the bridge that was written prior. And to see it is just kind of like, this is really happening here. You know what I mean? It wasn't an expected thing. It wasn't one of those things where it's just like, we're looking for this thing. It had everything to do with this thing, where it's just like, lord, how can we write in a way that makes it simple and easy for people to encounter you? And from that, it was like. And then. So you got the firstborn from the dead. It's coming back again. And we write from our house. So whatever's being preached, we write from the actual text and what the sermon said. Like, we don't have to make up things or make up. Like, we don't have to. It's there for us. You know what I mean? And so shout out to Pastor Philip for that. Because taking us through the book of Matthew, because I think the three years leading up to this moment sobered us in a way that we not trying to strive for nothing. We're just writing. And we are intentional about praying, and we're intentional about making sure that we encounter the Lord as we're doing it. So we say, hey, if you did not. Not if we did not feel the Lord move on us, it's probably not something that should be released.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

We kind of leave.

[A]

And I love that you guys are taking your time and you're not trying to fit a certain mold or be a certain thing that you're just. It's. It's literally just to exalt Christ. And I love that. And, yeah, I'm blown away by this conversation. I'm like, it's actually challenged me in some really good ways. And. And I'm sure we've challenged some people, and that's good, and I think it's great. We always do. With my guests and with me, I always try to give people a journal prompt after an episode because I just want, like, I don't want people to move on from content to content. I want people to kind of, like, process and, like, what did you hear? What convicted you? What challenged you? What comforted you, whatever. And so I like to give my guests the. The honor of giving a journal prompt. So, like, after our Conversation. What would be a good journal prompt for our audience?

[B]

Can I frame it as a question?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the end of your life, what would you be able to say that you know about Christ?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Did knowing him challenge you in a way, not just internally, but what you did externally. Did it challenge you in a way to say that I truly want to live for Christ, be it here, because we're the last days with what may be soon to come. The challenges that we may be facing in the future is at the end of your life, will you say that you know him, or will you just say that you went to Sunday gatherings or.

[A]

That's good. Thank you so much for coming. And I, I. I pray you come back, because I feel like I could have a part two of more of what we were talking about. But I'm really just so proud. Not that I mean anything, but, like, I'm really just so proud.

[B]

Stop that. You mean you made stuff. This is crazy.

[A]

I. I'm just really proud of you and proud of. Yeah. How you've led and how you've sustained and how you and. We didn't even get to talk about what happened in London. We definitely have to come back. No, I'm serious, because I wanted to talk about that. But, yeah, I just. I'm just really, like, I don't know, 2819 and the people of 2819. Like, you guys are really special to me, and you guys mean a lot to me, and I feel really protective and, like, big sisterly over you guys. Like, you guys know I love you, but I'm just really, like, I'm really happy for you guys, and I'm really excited about what God's doing. And yeah, I'm just. I'm just really excited. I love y'. All. So thank you so much for joining you guys. Make sure you check out out 2819 Worship. The new track is out right now. For Christ alone. Got it right this time. For Christ alone. I'm sure you guys have already down like, I'm. This is old news at this point. I'm sure you guys have already downloaded, outplayed it. It's on TikTok. It's all over the place. But make sure you go and support. Make sure you go follow Trey and support everything that he's doing. We love you guys, and we'll see you next week. Hey, y', all, thank you so much for being here here with me on In Totality this week. If this episode bless you or challenge you or even stirred up something in your spirit. Go ahead and like this video. Drop a comment below and share with us what part of the conversation really stuck out the most. Share with someone who you think might benefit from watching this. It really helps the show. And listen, if you want more of In Totality on a weekly basis, then join my Patreon community. You get early access to watch In Totality episodes, exclusive behind the scenes content and In Totality docu series which is like my vlog. First access to merch drops events, Bible studies where we're walking through the word together, book clubs and so much more. We're growing in our faith together and I would love for you to be a part of it. If you haven't already, subscribe and tap the notification bell so that you never miss an episode. Thursdays. You'll find me right here on your YouTube in the live chat when the episode premieres. I hope this message encouraged you today. I pray that you find a good godly community and a Bible based church where you're rooted in love and growing. Keep stepping into God's truth in Totality. I'll see you next time. Hi, I am Mandy Moore.

[B]

Sterling K. Brown and I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast that Was Us now on Head.

[A]

Each episode we're going to go into a deep dive from our show. This is us.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We're going to go episode by episode. We're also going to pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors.

[B]

Are we going to cry? Yes, a little bit. Are we going to laugh a lot?

[A]

A whole lot.

[B]

That's what I'm hoping. Man. Listen to that was us on your favorite podcast app. Or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.

[A]

Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really? At a playground? Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers. Wow, your search can really get that specific. Really? And you just put in your info and boom. Car's in your budget. Mom needs a second. Honey, you can really have it delivered. Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car. Mommy, I think your kid is walking up the slide. Kyle. Again? Really? Autotrader? Buy your car online? Really?